1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Colson Media. 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 3: You're weekly reminder that when bad things are happening, there's 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 3: people trying. 5 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 2: To do good things. 6 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 3: I am your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and with me today 7 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 3: as my guest on either the first or second ever, 8 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 3: depending on what order we release them. In Interview episode 9 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 3: where I interview people who know a lot about history 10 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 3: and write about history, my guest is the author and 11 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 3: artist Ben Passmore. 12 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 2: Hi, how are you? 13 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 4: Hi? Peace Grand Rising. 14 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 3: Ben is the winner of the Eisner and Ignatz Awards 15 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 3: for comics, and is mostly here in this context because 16 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 3: he just finished writing a book called Black Arms to 17 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 3: Hold You Up. She came out last Fall winner a. 18 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 4: Couple months ago October seventh. 19 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 3: Okay, Ben, I had a stress dream last night about 20 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 3: this interview, because my stress dream was that I had 21 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 3: to interview you about your old comic, Your Black Friend. 22 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 4: Oh oh see okay, And I. 23 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 3: Hadn't read it in like ten or fifteen years or 24 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 3: whenever it was that it came out, and so I 25 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 3: had this whole dream where I was trying to remember 26 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 3: what was in this comic so that I could interview 27 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 3: you about it. But then I woke up and instead 28 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,199 Speaker 3: it was the new thing that I've read, so that helped. 29 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 4: Well, You're welcome for that dream. 30 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. 31 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 3: People might also know you from Sports as Hell, and 32 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 3: people can follow you on the internet and read your 33 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 3: short comics also. 34 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: And I just want to point out, Hi, Sophie producer, 35 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: that right before we started recording, we learned you have 36 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:39,119 Speaker 1: a very localmy Thai award for kickbot What tell us more? 37 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 2: I want to know more? 38 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And I should stress that I am not 39 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 4: a professional Muytai fighter, but I do like to mention 40 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 4: to critics of my books that I have a very small, 41 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 4: inconsequential regional muytai title that I won beating up two 42 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 4: grown men in a fair grounds in Delaware. 43 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: That's fucking right your day. 44 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 3: I was going to refer to you as a champion kickboxer, 45 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 3: and you told me that that was not a not 46 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 3: what I should do. But I believe you are technically 47 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 3: a champion kickbox you are. 48 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,959 Speaker 4: Yeah, my coach would beat me up. Yeah yeah, I 49 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 4: am in this one county in Delaware, so that is 50 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 4: fear me. 51 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: Good enough for me. 52 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 3: My only experience with studying muay Thai was getting knocked 53 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 3: unconscious during sparring. Oh no, man, I went to an 54 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 3: Mma Jim for a little while. This is totally what 55 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 3: we're here to talk about today. I went because someone 56 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 3: was like, Hey, I want to go to this gym, 57 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 3: and I don't want to go by myself. You have 58 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 3: to come with me. And everyone thought that she was 59 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 3: my dragged along girlfriend. But what no one understood was 60 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 3: that I was the dragged along girlfriend. And then it 61 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 3: slowly became more and more transparent as she continued to 62 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 3: move on and start fighting semi professionally, and I got 63 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 3: knocked on conscious twice and was like, I'm out. 64 00:02:58,560 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: This is bad for my health. 65 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 4: Oh man, it's true, Mma, I should say, is a 66 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 4: lot more harsh. You know, they have, as we're finding out, 67 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 4: a deep connection to the right wing Mooyesi is And 68 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 4: I'm no expert, but by many degrees gayer. Okay, then Mma. 69 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 4: Part of it, I think is the incredible shiny shorts 70 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 4: that you have to wear that have bows and all 71 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 4: sorts of things. So even someone as straight as me 72 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 4: goes in with a more expansive understanding of gender performance 73 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 4: after a couple of years of training. 74 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 3: Okay, and if people want they can follow you on watchually. 75 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 3: I don't know what they're good. Your Instagram public it is, yeah, 76 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 3: it is. That's where I saw your becoming a champion kickboxer. 77 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 4: That's right. I had to let them know. 78 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: You're on Instagram and a Blue Sky. 79 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 4: Yeah Instagram, and Blue Skott on Instagram. I'm dayglo ahole 80 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 4: Dayglo ayho Eli, and I'm Ben pass More on Blue Sky, 81 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 4: so more drown on Blue Sky. 82 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 3: So I wanted to have you on because you wrote 83 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 3: this book called Black Arms to Hold You Up, and 84 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 3: it is a graphic history of black resistance starting from 85 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 3: the year nineteen hundred. And I have so many notes 86 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 3: about this book. I'm really excited about it, and I 87 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 3: like that you you position yourself in this book for 88 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 3: people who haven't read it. People don't have to read 89 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 3: it to understand this conversation. I mostly just want to 90 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 3: ask you about the history that you wrote, and about like, 91 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: you know, kind of what led you to this, and 92 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 3: you even kind of include what potentially led you to 93 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 3: it in the comic itself, which is that you are 94 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 3: looking at all the shit happening and are like, I 95 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 3: should fucking know about what's happening, but I'll just ask 96 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 3: you directly, like what led you to decide that this 97 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 3: is a project that you wanted to do. 98 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think like anything that you take on without 99 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 4: a full understanding of the emotional and physical cost. I 100 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 4: had a passing thought during a period of just personal 101 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 4: maybe confusion or something that I wanted to dive into 102 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 4: a history that I had initially been radicalized by, which 103 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 4: was more or less what people call the black radical tradition, 104 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 4: you know, the different sort of intersecting you know, people 105 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 4: groups that sort of are built around concept of black power, 106 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 4: black nationalism, some people. You know, this also includes the 107 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 4: New African Independence movement, which is more or less what 108 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 4: I ended up writing about, and that is New Africans 109 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 4: is more or less you know, however you want to 110 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 4: sort of dive into. It is sort of this concept 111 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 4: that black people in the United States are a unique people, 112 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 4: you know, certainly African, but we developed our own culture, language, 113 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 4: all that stuff, so or New Africans without a homeland. 114 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 4: So the tradition has a couple of goals, but one 115 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 4: of them was to have some Southern states seceed and 116 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 4: become a black nation. But anyway, I got into just 117 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 4: the research I had initially as a teenager been a 118 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 4: black nationalist and then got into anarchism, and then over 119 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 4: a long period of time, wanted to get back into it. 120 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 4: Around the time that Filando Castile was very publicly murdered, 121 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 4: you know, lynched, I think around that. 122 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 3: Time, this is the man who was killed because he 123 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 3: had a gun, even though he did everything legally and 124 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 3: politely to the police. 125 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, he in a traffic stop, I believe somewhere 126 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 4: in the Midwest. Now I'm embarrassed to say, I can't 127 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 4: remember exactly where Milwaukee. Maybe he was in a traffic stop, 128 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 4: one of many that he had been through. Someone was 129 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 4: talking about the number it was over one hundred. 130 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: Oh my god, stops by the police. 131 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 4: Quite a few. So he was very practiced, as many 132 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 4: of us are. And he was a legal gun owner 133 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 4: and carried a concealed firearm, and he let the police 134 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 4: know that he had a gun, and I guess that 135 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 4: just the idea, idea that he had a gun frightened 136 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 4: the police and they murdered him. Yeah, there was no 137 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 4: gun drawn or anything. 138 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 3: And for folks who don't know, a lot of states 139 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 3: have what's called a duty to disclose, Like I can't 140 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: speak to all states, but if you're a concealed carry 141 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 3: permit holder in North Carolina, you are required if you 142 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 3: interact with the police to disclose to them that you 143 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 3: have a firearm, which is terrifying the idea of being like, 144 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 3: n ah, now I have to tell this man that 145 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 3: I have a gun, And yeah, no, I didn't know 146 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 3: that it. 147 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: Was this like one hundredth stop or whatever. That's I 148 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: don't know. 149 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 3: Anyway, So you're saying, so you started doing this project, 150 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 3: and you were you know, around the time that Flander 151 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 3: Castille was murdered. 152 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I think his murder you know, it was 153 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 4: videotaped by his girlfriend. We had a couple other public murders, 154 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 4: you know, I call them lynching. Alton Sterling and Louisiana 155 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 4: was also publicly murdered, and so there was you know, 156 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 4: there's a period of time where there was a lot 157 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 4: of a lot of video going around to people being lynched, 158 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 4: and there was increased movement against police violence in the 159 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 4: institution of policing, and that was very very similar in 160 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 4: both my view and the view of a lot of 161 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 4: people that it was. It sort of mirrored the long 162 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 4: hot summer, which you know, could be started in nineteen 163 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 4: sixty five and Watts in California, where people were more 164 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 4: or less we were seeing these decentralized not we I 165 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 4: was not alive yet, but you know, the country was 166 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 4: seeing a lot of decentralized uprisings, you know, because of 167 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 4: police murder or in the case of Watts, there was 168 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 4: a traffic stop, a pregnant woman, black woman was taken 169 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 4: out of her car. There was a rumor, you know, 170 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 4: just going around that she had been beaten. She was not, 171 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 4: in fact beaten, but you know, just the way that 172 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 4: these things work, it's not so much about the single 173 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 4: thing that happens, right, It's about people are just sort 174 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 4: of fed up with a you know, systematic harassment. So 175 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 4: they were riding not necessarily only because the lady might 176 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 4: have been beat that one time, but all the beatings 177 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 4: they had seen before. So out of the long hot summer, 178 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 4: we saw, among other things, you know, a lot of 179 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 4: like formations. Organizing the Black Panther Party in sixty six 180 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 4: is the one that people know the most. So I 181 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 4: thought it would be a great time for me to 182 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 4: go deep in the research and sort of as just 183 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 4: like a desire for myself and for anyone reading to 184 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 4: sort of get an idea about what came before and 185 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 4: you know, what worked, what didn't work, and with the 186 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 4: mind that like we might be seeing different kinds of 187 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 4: revolutionary black formations come out of this moment. We didn't. Yeah, 188 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 4: but you know, I had an optimism and. 189 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 3: There's like we're even seeing like every time we have uprisings, 190 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 3: it does plant these seeds, right and like a lot 191 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 3: of the organizing that's happening against ice right now in Minneapolis, 192 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 3: like talking to people on the ground, a lot of 193 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 3: people are like, this comes from twenty twenty. This comes 194 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,959 Speaker 3: from the movement, you know, for George Floyd. Like even 195 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 3: though it's like different and it's different people being affected 196 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 3: sort of obviously black people are being targeted, you know, 197 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 3: by federal repression as well during all of this. 198 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: But it's like, I don't know, you get at. 199 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 3: All of these seeds throughout your writing this piece because 200 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 3: you're I feel like I usually see the history of 201 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 3: the twentieth century and like black struggle in this very 202 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 3: linear way, like it's usually presented as like, well, first 203 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 3: there was nothing, and then there was civil rights, and 204 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 3: then there was black nationalism, and then there was nothing. 205 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 3: You know, and like some people, of course, actually do 206 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 3: carry that story into the future. But you present all 207 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 3: of these different intertwining roots, including ones that I think 208 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 3: a lot of people will be familiar with a lot 209 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 3: of them, and a lot of people won't be familiar 210 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 3: with a lot of them. And like, did you have 211 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 3: a like sense of like how you intertwine all of 212 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 3: these things, how to tell this narrative? 213 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess you're saying, like, I think it's no 214 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 4: accident that there's this sort of narrative that things like 215 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 4: concepts of black people wanting to live for themselves in 216 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 4: their own space is something that is unique to you know, 217 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 4: maybe sixty six to you know, maybe the early seventies, 218 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 4: and then more or less we've moved on to reformism, 219 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,479 Speaker 4: you know, multi racial sort of living cyber. 220 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 2: Right, a little aberration, Yeah, yeah. 221 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 4: When like, of course, you know, those of us who 222 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 4: are maybe more invested in the history, right, you might 223 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 4: start desires for black nationalism, by which I mean like 224 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 4: residing as black folks within you know, the boundaries of 225 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 4: what we call the United States versus escape. You know, 226 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 4: obviously we wanted to escape from the beginning. That's always been. 227 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 3: True didn't want to come here in the first place. 228 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,719 Speaker 3: We're very much exactly. 229 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, an unhappy ride the place. We don't want to 230 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 4: be at a certain point, right, black folks were, you know, 231 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 4: being born here, and you know, people who had no 232 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 4: connection to Africa, you know culturally in that they had 233 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 4: been from there obviously the deeper connection, so you know, 234 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 4: like maroon societies, you can start there right with you know, 235 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 4: the folks like the gullageeche right having their own space anyway. 236 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 4: So this is all to say that a lot of 237 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 4: this history, like the different sort of approaches are existing simultaneously, 238 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 4: and a lot of sort of ideas of nationalism, cultural nationalism, 239 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 4: arm self defense, these are all sort of like interacting 240 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 4: with each other. Like early on in the first chapter, 241 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 4: in nineteen hundred, I write about this minister called Henry Turner, 242 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 4: who operated, among other things, a black newspaper at the time, 243 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,319 Speaker 4: and you can see in him both a rejection of patriotism. 244 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 4: He had been a chaplain during the Spanish American War 245 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 4: and was like, there's no reason that we should be 246 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 4: connected to americanness, like we're not Americans. He hadn't conceived 247 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 4: himself as like, you know, a New African but he 248 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 4: understood as a sort of separate people. And then also 249 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 4: you can find all these articles about like, hey, you know, 250 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 4: we need guns, right if they got guns, we need guns, 251 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 4: you know. And then also like a lot of the spiritualism. 252 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 4: So this is all to say that this struggle was 253 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 4: really to sort of depict people in times as being distinct, 254 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 4: because if you like go really into it, you find 255 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 4: all the foundations for like, you know, the Black Panthers 256 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 4: very very early on. And mostly I think what I 257 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 4: tried to show is sort of this large loop that happens, 258 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 4: and I started in nineteen hundred, yeah, and then you know, 259 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 4: things sort of like build up into these different kind 260 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 4: of formations and concepts. And then I started with Robert 261 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 4: Charles who got into a gunfight with ten thousand soldiers 262 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 4: and cops. And then I end more or less in 263 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 4: twenty sixteen with Mike Yezevier Johnson, who went out and 264 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 4: fought and killed multiple police in response to Philander Castile 265 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 4: being lynched. You know. Yeah, in that I was like, well, 266 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 4: this is a perfect loop, you know, in more than 267 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 4: one way. 268 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 3: No, that was actually one of the things I was 269 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 3: even my notes to talk about the fact that you 270 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 3: start and end with cop killers right with people who 271 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 3: are like I am sick, and you're presenting it, especially 272 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 3: the I can't remember the name of man from nineteen hundred, 273 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 3: Robert Charles, Robert Charles. You know, it's just like, hey, 274 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:10,719 Speaker 3: I'm just trying to live my life, and like he 275 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 3: is literally trying to leave the country, right, and he's 276 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 3: like he's part of the back to Africa movement of 277 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 3: the time, right. And I also love that you complicate. 278 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 3: We'll get into this. You complicate every piece you bring up. 279 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 3: You're not this is no hay geography. I don't know 280 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 3: how to pronounce that word. 281 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 5: You know. 282 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 3: You have this man who's just like I just kind 283 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 3: of want to get out of here, and like I 284 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 3: read a lot. I you know, I've been paying attention 285 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 3: to what's happening. I'm getting the fuck out of here. 286 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 3: And then at a certain point he's just like, man, 287 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 3: these people keep hitting me in the face. Like the 288 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 3: graphic novel of it. For people who haven't read this yet, 289 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 3: those little don't call themselves individual panels, Yeah, panels are 290 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 3: perfect because it's just this man standing stock still as 291 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 3: cops harass him and are just like hitting him in 292 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:54,359 Speaker 3: the head and he just stands. 293 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: There and finally is like fine and just shoots one 294 00:14:58,520 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: of the cops. 295 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 3: You know, I like it's very well drawn because you 296 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 3: can feel that man's decision in a way that would 297 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 3: be really hard to express with words alone. Right, So 298 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 3: I really appreciated that. But I really appreciate the fact 299 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 3: that you start and end with, like, what's kind of 300 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 3: the thing that if you had published this twenty years 301 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 3: ago would probably be really hard for any kind of 302 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 3: mainstream audience to resonate with, at least some mainstream white audience. 303 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 3: But do you know we have to start and end 304 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 3: with and also have in the middle. 305 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 4: I can't imagine. 306 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: It's ads. 307 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 3: Amazing we as a podcast start and end and in 308 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 3: the middle have ads like these ones. 309 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 4: And we're back. 310 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 5: You know. 311 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 3: One of the things I was thinking about while I 312 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 3: was reading this, you know this says, I think on 313 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 3: the book itself, or maybe on the you know thing 314 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 3: I saw before I got it, that like the New 315 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 3: York Times said that this is one of the best 316 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 3: graphic novels of twenty twenty five, right, And so it's 317 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 3: like not lacking in mainstream credibility, and it starts and 318 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 3: ends with this like very serious consideration of and sympathy 319 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 3: for people who are like, man, I'm just not fucking 320 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 3: taking this anymore. And like I'm wondering if you've had 321 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 3: response to that, Like, because I think you do a 322 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 3: really good job. I have so many thoughts about all this, 323 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 3: and I want to know your thoughts about how you 324 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 3: balance like individual versus collective solutions to these problems, but 325 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 3: also show the problems inherent with all of them, both 326 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 3: individual and collective. 327 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I appreciate what you're saying, Like it was funny, 328 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 4: you know, considering what the reception might be when the 329 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 4: book came out. I sold the book to Pantheon in 330 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 4: twenty twenty, And in twenty twenty, I think there was 331 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 4: a huge appetite for just black resistance material, you know, 332 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 4: and you know, a lot of people understanding that the 333 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 4: country might be thrust into a more libertary mode off 334 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 4: of the energy of a mostly black focused uprising. Right, 335 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 4: So I think, you know, for whatever reason, the editors 336 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 4: at Pantheon were like, let's you know, let's get this cartoonists, 337 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 4: let's get this cartoonist on it. And then of course 338 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 4: comic books if you don't know anything about making them 339 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 4: take entirely too long. So it took me five years 340 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 4: to do it. And you know, in that time, among 341 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 4: other things, we saw a lot of resistance to the 342 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 4: genocide in Palestine, right, and you know, both an upsurge 343 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 4: different peers in which people were like, well, this isn't working. 344 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 4: And then you know, and now we're we're sort of 345 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 4: in a you know, we're in Trump two point zero 346 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 4: and him really trying to fast track Nazi Nazi Germany. 347 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 4: You know, So when the book came out, I was like, 348 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 4: and all this said, like this is not black focused necessarily, right, 349 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 4: Like we're not the chief sort of you know, victims 350 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 4: in people's minds and not the chief agitators. 351 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 2: Right right, and the current struggle, you mean. 352 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 4: Right in the current struggle right for me, you know, 353 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 4: I'm black, so I am you know, obsessed with black 354 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 4: people and what's going on with us, right, So it's 355 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 4: relevant to me and you know, people like me, I guess, 356 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 4: but I wasn't really sure like what the sort of 357 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 4: response was going to be when it came out. I 358 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 4: assumed that people wouldn't pay attention to it at all. 359 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 4: You know, it's sort of interesting. I think, you know, 360 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 4: if I came out with this book in the seventies, right, 361 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 4: because the movement was so publicly armed, I think, you know, 362 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 4: I would have gone to prison or something, right, And 363 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 4: it made me think about sort of like how dangerous 364 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 4: thoughts seem to people in context. You know. It's also 365 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 4: just sort of interesting because and this is maybe me 366 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 4: veering off into like another thought. Yeah, yeah, please, but 367 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 4: you know, I'm a cartoonist, not a podcasts so terrible 368 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 4: and didn't keep me on topic. 369 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: You're doing great, Ben, You're doing. 370 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 4: Okay, thank you, thank you. I try to overachieve as 371 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 4: much as possible. But you know, here in Philadelphia we had, 372 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 4: you know, a whole bunch of controversies over a local 373 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 4: black panther party, and it bled into the rest of 374 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 4: the country and you saw playing out what sort of 375 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 4: like detrimental sort of conversations happen when people don't understand 376 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 4: black radical history. 377 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 3: You know, other things that I want to ask you about. 378 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 3: I believe the character that is Ben, that is in 379 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 3: this book is basically trying to figure out, like where 380 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 3: the fuck do I fit into this? 381 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 2: Right? 382 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:21,959 Speaker 5: Like? 383 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 3: Where is my place? Why does this matter to me? 384 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 3: With a very like it does matter to me and 385 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 3: I have a place, but I don't know what it is. 386 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 3: It's interesting because it moves critically through spaces that are 387 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 3: usually presented on critically. I really appreciate it. There's a 388 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 3: line when you're talking about the move family and the 389 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 3: way you're like and their supporters, especially white radicals, didn't 390 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 3: know how fucked up they were. 391 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 5: Right. 392 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 3: I've seen Ramona Africa speak right and being presented on 393 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 3: critically and like we're like, you know, a crowd of 394 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 3: people who are really excited about this right at a 395 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 3: conference like twenty years ago or something like that. You know, 396 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 3: it wasn't until later that it started coming out that 397 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 3: there's like problems with that group of people. And you 398 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 3: get at it like kind of unflinchingly, And I really 399 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 3: appreciate the way that you you're going through and analyzing 400 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 3: all this history critically well at the same time like 401 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 3: still sort of being like, but you can kind of 402 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 3: see why they did it anyway, you know, like I 403 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 3: haven't seen anything that does that. I haven't seen anything 404 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 3: that just actually is like this shit's messy. 405 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's a lot of really good reasons 406 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 4: for that, right, you know, liberation movements across the board, 407 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 4: and certainly black ones have seen a lot of different 408 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 4: kinds of repressions in ways that they're delegitimized, right. And 409 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 4: one of those, you know, like a very popular one 410 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 4: is Martin Luther King cheated on his wife, you know 411 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 4: what I mean, things like that. 412 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 413 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. 414 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 4: The expectation of us, you know, is that we are superhuman, 415 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 4: right if we are to be listened to it all, 416 00:20:58,800 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 4: you know. 417 00:20:59,200 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 5: Right. 418 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 4: So I think the thing and you know, I sort 419 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 4: of talk about this in the book, or it's just 420 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 4: sort of like a major thing is that like in 421 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 4: the minds of revolutionaries that they're at war with the 422 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 4: United States, right, and so part of and this is true. 423 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 4: Now you will see figures like Jojo Bowen, who was 424 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 4: a black panther, but he spent basically his entire time 425 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 4: in prison, and he engaged in a lot of prison uprisings. 426 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 4: Is one really incredible story he had in one prison 427 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 4: take some prison guards hostage, and during the uprising they 428 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 4: had burned like half the prison down. So he gets 429 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 4: moved to a new prison, right, and the warden, who 430 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 4: wants to be tough, right, he brings Jojo Bowen in 431 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 4: and another revolutionary elder whose name I can't remember right now, 432 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 4: but anyway, both these brothers are Muslim, right as many 433 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 4: of the panthers were, and they wanted, you know, they 434 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 4: want to pray and do all this, you know, have 435 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 4: the right food and stuff. Right, So they're making all 436 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 4: these requests when again in the prison, the warden is like, 437 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 4: come on into my office. And the warden is there 438 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 4: and his I fraigure with the call, but basically like 439 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 4: chief of the officer, right, and he puts a shive 440 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 4: on his desk in front of Jojo Bowen and he's like, 441 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 4: I'm not afraid of you, and Jojo Bowen stabs both 442 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 4: of them to death with the shiv. So Jojo Bowen 443 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 4: is never gaining out of prison, right. Yeah. But if 444 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 4: you talk to Jojo Bowen, which you know by mail, 445 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 4: so I wrote him several times, he still talks like 446 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 4: he's at war, right, he's a soldier. Yeah, so he's 447 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 4: only going to really interact, particularly with people outside right 448 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 4: of the military formations in a specific way. So I 449 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 4: think when you read a lot of history coming from 450 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 4: like us, which is to say, you know, black folks 451 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 4: involved in the movement. We talk about it in you know, 452 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 4: soda saying mixed company. Right, there's this resistance to sort 453 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 4: of talk about you know what we might call the contradictions, right, 454 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 4: things that might delegitimize. I think when I was writing 455 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 4: this book, though, I thought that it was important to 456 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 4: have a bit of that inside conversation outside because I 457 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 4: think that rather than for one reason, I think that 458 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 4: when we don't talk about when people do things that 459 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 4: are abusive among other things, right, whether it's because of 460 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 4: a cult of personality or you know how patriarchy and homophobial, 461 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 4: all these things sort of like thrive in certain environments, 462 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 4: we sort of allow people to get hurt in the 463 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 4: exact same way. So I think that's part of my 464 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 4: motivation is like, is to try and present a way 465 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 4: of thinking critically that doesn't denounce people, right, that sort 466 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 4: of appreciates that people are messy and that we have 467 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 4: to figure out how to sort of maneuver, like how 468 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 4: do we do what we want to do, understanding that 469 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 4: these folks ain't perfect, that we have to like, you know, 470 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 4: for me, the only way is through and also like 471 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 4: for me, as you're sort of saying, like I found 472 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 4: my identity through this history and participating in radical movement, 473 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 4: and that means sort of like interacting with people like 474 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 4: you know, elders who are not perfect right, history that 475 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 4: is like not clear in many cases, and I still 476 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 4: have to find myself in it, you know. So I 477 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 4: think that was a lot of my motivation. 478 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 3: No, this makes sense to me, And like to use 479 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 3: Marcus Garvey as an example. I've covered Marcus Garvey on 480 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,479 Speaker 3: the show a bit, never as the central character, and 481 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 3: partly because like Marcus Garvey is so complicated, He's so 482 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 3: complicated to engage with one hundred years later, and it's 483 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 3: so hard to understand capitalism versus anti capitalism, Black capitalism 484 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 3: versus Black anti capitalism, which is different. But I had 485 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 3: come up in kind of a like most of my 486 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 3: friends who would talk about black liberation were much more 487 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 3: either black nationalists or at least like very distinctly black socialist, 488 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 3: black anti capitalists, and not a lot of respect for 489 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 3: Marcus Garvey. And then I started working with this organization 490 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 3: a while ago, and one of the elders within that movement, 491 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 3: I was like talking to someone and I was like, oh, yeah, like, uh, 492 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 3: you know Marcus Garvey or whatever, and she was like, 493 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 3: don't let you know so, and so hear you say 494 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 3: that shit, and I was like, oh, there's more to 495 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 3: Marcus Garvey than I'm aware of, right, And so I 496 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 3: started talking to this man about what you know embedded 497 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 3: in this anti capitalist organization, about how that is the 498 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 3: background that he comes from and that he loves. And 499 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 3: then this is terrible because I actually have to stick 500 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 3: an ad in here which really kind of either underlines 501 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 3: or just demolishes my point, like all at once, but 502 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 3: I'm going to finish my question and then and then 503 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 3: hear what you have to say about it after these 504 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 3: ads and er back, and like, I really appreciated, you know, 505 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 3: you talked to a fair amount about Marcus Garvey in 506 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 3: this company for people who are like, sorry, I'm accidentally 507 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 3: inside baseball, And Marcus Garvey was, oh god, I'm not 508 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 3: gonna be able to do this incredibly well at the. 509 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 2: Top of my head. 510 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 3: One of the first prominent United States like black thinkers 511 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 3: who was really presenting although he actually wasn't from the US, 512 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 3: but yeah, but he was active in the US and 513 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 3: was really presenting like a model by which to uplift 514 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 3: black folks in the Western hemisphere and that model involved 515 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 3: depending on who you talk to, either like capitalism or 516 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 3: actually cooperativism, but it like doesn't map to like Marxism, 517 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 3: you know. Anyway, I want to ask you about Marcus 518 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 3: Garvey because I just want to kind of. 519 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 2: Hear more what you have to say about it. 520 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 3: But also I think you did a really good job 521 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 3: in specifically this idea that no one is perfect, but 522 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 3: you still have to engage with people, and like his 523 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 3: legacy is still part of all of this stuff, and 524 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 3: like it's so fascinating when we don't expect people to 525 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 3: be perfect. We're not looking back and be like this 526 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 3: is the person I have to model myself after, you know. 527 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 3: But instead you can say, like, oh, what's interesting here? 528 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that you know, as you said, like 529 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 4: Marcus Garvey is a complicated person. There's a really good 530 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:56,239 Speaker 4: case to disregard him as a person because of inconsistencies 531 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 4: and even misdeeds you know, around him. And it's similarly 532 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,959 Speaker 4: difficult because like Jaga Hoover learned how to infiltrate movements, 533 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 4: you know, by targeting the garvyites, you know, which includes 534 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 4: like little sabotage and disinformation, you know, So I think 535 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 4: a lot of people are more than comfortable to say, well, 536 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 4: with the exception of maybe a couple of things, that's 537 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 4: all it is. You know, like similar the nation, you know, 538 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 4: the nation had you know, the American Nazis. I forget 539 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 4: what their names are, but you know they had them 540 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 4: attend some services. 541 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, because it was like segregation. We all want segregation. 542 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 4: There's that. I think also, well, the modern sort of 543 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 4: a one modern sort of interpretation of it is that 544 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 4: you know, the honorable Elijah Muhammad, similar to Marcus Garvey, 545 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 4: is representing a nation and a nation you know, the 546 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 4: president will meet the head of nations, right that they're right, 547 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 4: you know, not in alignment with I think that this 548 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 4: is not the same. But this is something that they 549 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 4: you know that they might say, you know as a yeah, right, 550 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 4: so this is not a co signing that this is 551 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 4: you know, having a conversation. 552 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 2: With diplomacy between heads of state, yes, or heads of na. 553 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. Diplomacy I think is the right word, 554 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 4: although of course countries will refuse diplomaticized on moral grounds. 555 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 4: It's not something I would do. But I think that 556 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 4: the thing about Marcus Garvey, or I think the thing 557 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 4: that I always think about, and some of it is 558 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 4: certainly personally influenced, because I was initially radicalized by, among 559 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 4: other thinkers, Marcus Garvey when I was in a reform school. 560 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 4: The second political book I ever read was Garvy I Papers, 561 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 4: the History of Marcus Garvey, and I really liked the 562 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 4: sort of this idea of you know, his self education programs, 563 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 4: you know, trying to be independent. My imagination was deeply 564 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 4: captured by his really cool hats and this idea of 565 00:28:55,280 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 4: us being independent and strong. But so I think sometimes 566 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 4: times it's hard to sort of explain that what we 567 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 4: really love is the space that someone makes in which 568 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 4: we become our best selves, and it's not so much 569 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 4: that we think of. And certainly some people deify Marcus Garvey. 570 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 4: But I think in some ways there's a bit of 571 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 4: a conflation because we need the Garvey movement to have 572 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 4: so many really truly amazing people. Queen Mother Moore, who 573 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 4: is a member of the Republic of New Africa, who 574 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 4: we get a lot of sort of concepts of reparations, 575 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 4: but she was a figure in the early nineteen hundreds 576 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 4: who was in the anti lynching movement. But she her 577 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 4: first engagement with armed self defense was when she was 578 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 4: very young. When she was I think in her early twenties, 579 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 4: Garvey wanted to come and speak, and I read about 580 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 4: this in the comic. He wants to come and speak 581 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 4: in New Orleans. The governor doesn't let him. To the 582 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 4: black population come out fully armed and march through the 583 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 4: town demanding the Garvey speak, and then you know, the 584 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 4: mayor is like, okay. 585 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it enough guns and you can usually do 586 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 2: what you want to do. 587 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, So this was a radicalizing thing for Queen 588 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 4: Mother Moore. She was a communist, She was part of 589 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 4: the CPUSA for a while and then became a Black nationalist. 590 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 4: So anyway, I love Queen Mother Moore and she's essential 591 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 4: and we only get her, I would argue because of 592 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 4: Marcus Garvey. Same thing with Malcolm X's parents were Garbyites, 593 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 4: you know. Yeah, So I think this is the this 594 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 4: is the complication. You know. 595 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 3: No, that makes sense to me, And it's like something 596 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 3: I've been thinking about a lot recently is how if 597 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 3: you're really really politically engaged, you can kind of accidentally 598 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 3: see things very much in these categories, these strict categorizations 599 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 3: of ideology, right, and then realizing that most people who 600 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 3: have an ideological label, if like from Republican to communist 601 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 3: and everywhere in between or whatever. Right, most people, that's 602 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 3: like not going to be everything about them or like 603 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 3: the way that they judge every person that they meet. 604 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 3: It's like kind of a you know, like some people 605 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 3: are like goths and that's fucking all they are, and 606 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 3: some people like to wear all black, you know, and 607 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 3: like so it makes sense because at first I'd be like, well, 608 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 3: why is a communist hanging out with the Garveyites, And 609 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 3: you're like, well, because they're looking for black liberation and 610 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 3: like trying to sort out how to do it. 611 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 2: You know. 612 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,719 Speaker 4: Yeah. I think something that many people have sort of 613 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 4: pointed out is that, you know, as you're saying, people 614 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 4: don't live necessarily strict boundaries, but also historically black folks 615 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 4: in the United States have a slightly different relationship to 616 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 4: these sort of like political denominations. You know. I think 617 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 4: that there's a rigidity that you know, Europeans might have around, 618 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 4: you know, sort of these political ideologies where people were 619 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 4: you know, black folks are definitely you know, I'm not 620 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 4: going to say a thing obviously that's going to work 621 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 4: for all of them. But I think if you look 622 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 4: through history, there is a desire to focus on what works, 623 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 4: and that often means sort of blending a set of ideas. 624 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 4: Garvy is a good exact He gets a lot of 625 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 4: his for lack of a better word, platform from Booker T. Washington, 626 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 4: you know, who was not a Pan Africanist, you know. 627 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 4: So we're seeing that people are very interested in what 628 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 4: gets us free, you know. I think that there can be, 629 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 4: as with any group of people, different sort of opinions 630 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 4: about like what systems might be more prone to oppressive dynamics. 631 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 4: You know. As an anarchist, I have to say that 632 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 4: I'm not trying to live and you know, in the 633 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 4: black nation that Garvey was trying to build, you know. 634 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 4: But I think that people will sort of, particularly folks 635 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 4: who are not black, I think, will get hyper fixated 636 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 4: on trying to find the black figures that you know, 637 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 4: said the exact right labels for what they are and 638 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 4: sort of rep them, you know. But I think that 639 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,719 Speaker 4: that's ignoring sort of the fluidity of the broader movement. 640 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 3: And I think that that's one of the things that 641 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 3: your book does really well, is like you have a 642 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 3: kind of surreal narrative structure and a lot of your work. 643 00:32:59,720 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 2: And. 644 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 3: You know, there are parts when I'm reading this book 645 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 3: where I'm like, I'm even fairly familiar, not with everything 646 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 3: that you bring up, but with a lot of it. 647 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 5: Right. 648 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 3: I have moments of like, oh, wait, where am I? 649 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 3: In time and in movements, and then you kind of 650 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 3: usually put in enough to kind of bring the audience 651 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 3: back to where they are, but you you're moving through 652 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 3: these ideological and like movement structure is actually kind of 653 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 3: in a way that you're talking about I want to 654 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 3: ask you more about it, but I want to ask 655 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 3: you more about it on Wednesday. Well, I actually I want 656 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 3: to ask you more about it in about five minutes, 657 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 3: but I want to ask you in such a way 658 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 3: that no one else gets to hear what you say 659 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 3: until Wednesday. And so that is the end of part one. 660 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 3: Some of the things I want to talk to you 661 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 3: about Part two. You talk a lot about the armed 662 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,239 Speaker 3: part of the non violence movement, and like, I'm very 663 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 3: interesting that we've covered that on the show, and just 664 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 3: a lot of stuff that's gonna if you've listened to 665 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 3: the show a bunch, this is even more about some 666 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 3: of the stuff that we've talked about, and then even 667 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 3: more so people should listen to part two. But if 668 00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 3: people want to find you on the internet or find 669 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 3: your book, anything, you want to plug? 670 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 4: Oh yes, Well, if you want to find my book, 671 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 4: you can steal it basically anywhere. That's the benefit of 672 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 4: being published by Pantheon. But you can also go to 673 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 4: my Instagram. I have an online store, and you can 674 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 4: buy it from me directly. What else can I plug? 675 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 4: I did a weird, goopy horror book with my friend 676 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 4: called bottom Feeders that's by Fanographics. Other than that train, 677 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 4: let's exercise for the coming fascist weight. 678 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I rememb brought this up once on 679 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 2: the show. 680 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 3: That one time I was playing accordion in the street 681 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 3: and this anarchist I knew it was a little bit 682 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 3: older than me walk by and I was like, where 683 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 3: are you coming from? And he was like the gym 684 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 3: and I was like, I'm like twenty one in the 685 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 3: story and I'm like why, and he's like, because we 686 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 3: want to have a revolution, we need to be stronger 687 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 3: than the police. 688 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 2: I'm like, ah, fuck, what am I doing? 689 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: Incredible? 690 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:52,720 Speaker 4: What a gift? 691 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to plug once again against the state. 692 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: By James Stout, Anarchists and Comrades at War in Spain. 693 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: Me and mar and Java, our colleague James Stout's book. 694 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, it came out like a week or two ago and. 695 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: Already from AKA Press. It's so good. 696 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 4: I'm excited about it. 697 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 2: I saw that, I see people talking about it, and 698 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 2: that's cool. It's so good. 699 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: The cover arts beautiful. Please support James Stout. He's one 700 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: of the greatest people I know. 701 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 3: All right, well, we will talk to you all on Wednesday. 702 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 5: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of 703 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 5: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, 704 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 5: visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us 705 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 5: out on the I Heard Radio app, app a Podcasts, 706 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 5: or wherever you get your podcasts.