1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 2: is Robert. 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And Hey, we are 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 3: back with part two of our series on cave ecosystems 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 3: and hypogean biology cave biology. In the last episode, we 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 3: talked about some of the characteristic features of cave ecosystems, 8 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 3: and then we ended up discussing how lightless cave environments 9 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 3: shaped the evolution of a creature called Astianax Mexicanus, or 10 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 3: the blind Mexican cavefish, also known as the Mexican tetra, 11 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 3: of which many populations have adapted to life in subterranean 12 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 3: waterways by losing their eyes and the pigments in their flesh. 13 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 3: We ended up kind of doing a deep dive on 14 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 3: the evolution mary logic of this why an animal population 15 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 3: that once had eyes and skin pigment would adapt over 16 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 3: many generations to lose those traits in a cave. So 17 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 3: if you haven't heard part one yet, you should probably 18 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 3: go back and check that one out first. But we 19 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 3: are back again today to talk about some more elements 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 3: of cave biology, specifically One of the things I wanted 21 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 3: to get into we didn't really have time for last time, 22 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 3: was something else about blind Mexican cavefish, which is, if 23 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 3: they have no site, what do they do? How do 24 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 3: they navigate their environment and forage for food? 25 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 2: And this is key because they've got to eat something. 26 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 2: And these are extreme environments that are generally regarded as 27 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: not being the most bountiful places to scrape out a 28 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 2: livelihood as an organism. 29 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 3: Right, And there might be some advantages to living in 30 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 3: a cave if you are a fish like this, Like 31 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 3: there might be fewer predators than you would encounter in 32 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 3: the world above, but there are also fewer food resources, 33 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 3: so you know you have to you have to kind 34 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 3: of like shift your specialization. 35 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, if I was to decide, again, this is 36 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 2: a non evolutionary example, but if I was to decide 37 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: I am going to now live in my local Ikea store, well, 38 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: you know, I've got to figure out some new things. Right, 39 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: It's going to be easy to find a bed when 40 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: the lights go out, but I'm gonna have to deal 41 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 2: with the night security. My diet is going to consist 42 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 2: entirely of Ikea food. 43 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 3: So if you like Lingenberry. 44 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, make sure you don't have a Linenberry allergy 45 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: for sure. 46 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. So I wanted to explore this question of how 47 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 3: do blind cavefish since their surroundings, and so I was 48 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 3: looking into this and I discovered that apparently one major 49 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 3: sense mechanism that they rely on is what's known as 50 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 3: the lateral line system. And this is not a sense 51 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 3: that is unique to blind cavefish. The lateral line system 52 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 3: is found in lots of aquatic vertebrates, even those that 53 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 3: can and see. Though in blind fish there are usually 54 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 3: enhancements to this system, so it's a sense that they 55 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 3: already have, but it gets stronger in the cave evolved variants. 56 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 3: As a side note, I always really enjoy imagining types 57 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 3: of senses that humans don't have, like what it would 58 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 3: be like to have a different kind of sense, you know, 59 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 3: like electro reception or magnetic perception or something like that. 60 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 3: And this sense in particular, I'm very excited to try 61 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 3: to imagine because it's very spooky trying to imagine it. 62 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 3: It's something about it feels almost kind of halloweeny. This 63 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 3: might make more sense once I explain it. So, the 64 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 3: basic function of the lateral line system is to detect 65 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 3: movements in the water surrounding the animal through high sensitivity 66 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 3: to changes in water pressure. This system it runs along 67 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 3: the length of an animal like a fish, so there'll 68 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 3: be sort of nals of the lateral line sensing organs 69 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 3: around the head of the fish and then running lengthwise 70 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 3: along the body. The system uses sensory organs known as 71 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 3: neuro masts, which contain little hairs suspended within a kind 72 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 3: of jelly filled capsule that bends in response to changes 73 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 3: in water pressure and flow. And then these little hairs 74 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 3: are connected to nerve cells that are strung along the 75 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: lateral line system like Christmas tree lights. Sometimes the neuromasts 76 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 3: are exposed to the water on the outside of the skin. 77 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 3: They're just right on the outside of the skin, but 78 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 3: other times they are contained within a kind of duct 79 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 3: or canal that is just under the surface of the skin. 80 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 3: And either way that the purpose of the lateral line 81 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 3: system is to detect vibrations, movements, and objects within the 82 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 3: water by sensing the little changes in water pressure and flow. 83 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 3: So with this system, an animal can get feedback about 84 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 3: its own movement through the water, for one thing, but 85 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 3: it can also sense the presence of currents and nearby 86 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 3: solid masses, either moving or stationary, by the way they 87 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 3: displace water as the fish moves through it. And this 88 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 3: is coming back to what I was saying a minute ago, 89 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 3: something about trying to imagine this is. Oh, it's very 90 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 3: evocative and a little bit scary, almost so imagining living 91 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 3: in a place of dark water. But you can sense 92 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 3: objects around you by the way they move the water, 93 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 3: or by the way they change how the water moves 94 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 3: around you. 95 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 2: Oh wow, I mean, we're getting right back into that 96 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 2: Gollumn territory, you know. I'm imagining Gollum sensing that goblin 97 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: that has come down and is washing its hands in 98 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 2: the water, and so forth on this lightless underground lake. 99 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: And to your point, it is so alien to try 100 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 2: and imagine this. I'm in the water a fair amount. 101 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: I swim laps most mornings. They'll swim in this morning, 102 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: and it's still you know, it's a very visual exercise. 103 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 2: You can send You can feel things in the water, 104 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 2: obviously you can. And Lord knows, there's a lot to 105 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 2: see and feel in a Ymca pool. You know, there 106 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: are people doing exercise classes, there are people swimming laps 107 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 2: next to you, sometimes very often in the same lane 108 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 2: with you, and you pick up on those movements, but 109 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 2: nowhere near this level of detail. You know, this is 110 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: like compared to what we have. This is like a 111 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: second site. 112 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I kind of ghostly vision through which you can 113 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 3: you can sense things around you by the way they 114 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 3: move the water against your body. 115 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 116 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,799 Speaker 3: So anyway, the astyanax fish, the Mexican blind cavefish, apparently 117 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 3: compensate for their lack of vision by having a more 118 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 3: sensitive lateral line system than their surface dwelling cousins, and 119 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 3: this helps them navigate, forage and survive in their lightless environment. 120 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 3: But this way of living depends not just on heightened 121 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 3: sensitivity to water displacement, but also on changes to behavior. 122 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 3: For example, one thing I was reading about is that 123 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 3: when preparing to mate, apparently male and female blind cavefish 124 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 3: engage in this in these patterns of exaggerated movements of 125 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 3: various body parts like the mouth and the gills, and 126 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 3: these movements are thought to perhaps help the mating partners 127 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 3: find and identify one another without visual cues. Does that 128 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 3: make sense, like moving around in the water more so 129 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 3: that they can locate one another of course, the fish 130 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 3: also have changes to their metabolism to allow them to 131 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 3: survive in a place where food is less abundant than 132 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 3: it is on the surface, so they are thought to 133 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,559 Speaker 3: have slower metabolisms to need less food energy. But also 134 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 3: I was reading about an interesting twenty seventeen study published 135 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: in Plus one by some researchers associated with the University 136 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 3: of Cincinnati, and this was on the role of a 137 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 3: symmetry in blind cavefish evolution. We actually did a whole 138 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 3: series on asymmetry and animals a while back in which 139 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 3: we talked about fiddler crabs and such, fiddler crabs having 140 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 3: one claw much much bigger than the other. But we 141 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 3: talked about a lot of examples in the animal world, 142 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 3: and I remember that being a very interesting series. 143 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a fun one for sure, you know, 144 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 2: with some of the outrageous examples in some of the 145 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,599 Speaker 2: less obvious examples of asymmetry. 146 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 3: Apparently there is a bit of hidden asymmetry in the 147 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 3: blind Mexican cavefish as well, So let's see. This study 148 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 3: was by Amandicate Powers, aeronam Davis, Shane A. Kaplan, and 149 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 3: Joshua be Gross, published in Plus one in twenty seventeen, 150 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 3: and it was called cranial asymmetry arises later in the 151 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 3: life history of the blind Mexican cavefish a Stianax Mexicanus. 152 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 3: And so we were talking in the previous episode about 153 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 3: how in some of these cavefish populations, the fish are 154 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 3: not without eyes from the very beginning. Rather, they do 155 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 3: grow eyes initially in embryonic development, but then the eyes 156 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 3: go through what's called regression where they are absorbed and 157 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 3: disappear as the fish grows, and then the bone around 158 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 3: the eye socket collapses in by the time the fish 159 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 3: is an adult. Young cavefish apparently start life with fairly 160 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 3: symmetrical bodies, and the surface variants in the rivers above 161 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 3: where there's plenty of light also have fairly symmetrical bodies 162 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 3: even as adults. But the young cavefish start out fairly symmetrical, 163 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 3: and then as they mature a mismatch develops in how 164 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 3: the bones on either side of their skull take shape. 165 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 3: And this asymmetry in their cranial bones seems to match 166 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 3: a difference in behavior between the cave variant of the 167 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 3: tetras and the surface variant still has eyes. The surface 168 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 3: variant when you place it in a fish tank, will 169 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 3: swim in more random patterns or will just kind of 170 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 3: float without moving in the shaded portions of the tank. 171 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 3: The cave variant, on the other hand, will just keep 172 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 3: it'll keep swimming in circles around the edges of its tank, 173 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 3: and this matches with the fact that has been observed 174 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 3: in the wild. In its natural environment, the cave variant 175 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 3: will tend to follow the rocky walls of the pool 176 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 3: where it lives, swimming counterclockwise around these boundaries in an 177 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 3: endless loop. And one of the studies authors, Amanda Powers, 178 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 3: was quoted in a press release about the research, explaining, quote, 179 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 3: you could see how asymmetry might be an advantage in navigation. 180 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 3: They tend to swim in a unidirectional circular motion around 181 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 3: their tanks to explore their surroundings. Having asymmetry in their skull, 182 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 3: we think is attributed to handedness. If their skull is 183 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 3: bent to the left, they could be right handed. They're 184 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 3: feeling the wall to the right with their sensory structures. 185 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, So it seems that the cavefish have 186 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 3: a type of developmental handedness that correlates to a navigation 187 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 3: behavior where they follow the walls of their natural enclosure 188 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 3: in this slow, counterclockwise lapping motion. Though I think it's 189 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 3: still not fully understood how this system emerges, if it 190 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 3: helps them survive how, we don't fully know yet, but 191 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 3: it's interesting to imagine why. Another interesting sort of unrelated 192 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 3: thing that I was just reading in this press release, 193 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 3: also quoting the same author of the paper, I mean, 194 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 3: powers talking about how she and colleagues went into the 195 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 3: caves to observe these fish, and she says in this 196 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 3: article quote, whenever you would touch the surface of the 197 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 3: water with your finger, a swarm of cavefish would come 198 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 3: right up to it. Not many fish would do that. 199 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 3: These cavefish have zero predators, are not afraid. 200 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 2: Oh wow, that you know. That reminds me of other 201 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 2: examples we've talked about in the show, like various birds 202 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 2: of the Galapagos Islands, for example. It reminds me of 203 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 2: some stuff I was just reading the other day about 204 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 2: the dodo bird. You know, where you have these organisms 205 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 2: that adapt over evolutionary time to an environment where there 206 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 2: are no predators or there is just an entirely different 207 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:30,839 Speaker 2: predation situation going on, And yeah, they just lose their fear. 208 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: There's no need to engage in that kind of protective 209 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: behavior because those things don't exist for them until they 210 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 2: show up on a bub Yeah yeah, speaking. 211 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 3: Dutch, Okay, So that's lateral line sensations, and then the 212 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 3: asymmetry of the skull, the kind of the circling behavior, 213 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 3: all those differences. But there was one more thing I 214 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 3: wanted to talk about. I mentioned in the previous episode 215 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 3: another sensory enhancement found in some of these cavefish, and 216 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 3: that sensory enhancement was taste. It appeared to be involved 217 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 3: in a plyotropy. Remember that's where a single genetic change 218 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 3: would result in multiple different changes in the phenotype in 219 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 3: the body or the behavior, And in this case, the 220 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 3: idea was that there was a single genetic change that 221 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 3: would result in both regression of the eyes. So this 222 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 3: process we talked about where the eyes are sort of 223 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,839 Speaker 3: absorbed and the adult fish doesn't have eyes, and then 224 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 3: along with that development of a greater number of taste buds. Now, 225 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 3: we speculated generally in the last episode that yeah, you know, 226 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 3: having enhanced other senses in a cave would probably be 227 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 3: useful in some way. Taste buds are generally useful. They 228 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 3: are our body's chemistry set to know what we're putting 229 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 3: in the digestive tract. But I was wondering if there 230 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 3: was anything else we could know about that, like how 231 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 3: do these extra taste buds work in these fish? What 232 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 3: kind of benefit do they provide? So this is another 233 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 3: thing where the answer is not fully known yet we 234 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 3: know a few kind of interesting morsels. So I came 235 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 3: across a very recent paper addressing this question. It was 236 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 3: by Daniel Burning and Joshua B. Gross published in Frontiers 237 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 3: and Ecology and Evolution twenty twenty three, called the Constructive 238 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 3: Evolution of Taste in astianax Cavefish. A review and one 239 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 3: of the things I thought was interesting here, Rob, I've 240 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 3: attached a I've attached a diagram for you to look at. 241 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 3: It seems that mostly what we're talking about are what's 242 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 3: called extra oral taste buds, taste buds that are not 243 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 3: inside the mouth like ours, but outside the mouth and 244 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 3: spread out over the jaws in the front of the face. 245 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 3: So in this diagram it shows blind cavefish from a 246 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 3: couple of different populations compared to the surface variant with 247 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 3: taste buds filled in as red dots on the illustrations, 248 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 3: and while the surface variant looks like it is wearing 249 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 3: lip stick, you know, the red dots, the taste buds 250 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 3: are on the mouth, the cave fish are wearing clown makeup. 251 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 3: The taste buds are all over the face. 252 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's quite impressive. And again it makes sense for 253 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 2: this kind of an environment, you know, you need to 254 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: lean into a different sense situation. It reminds me a 255 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 2: bit of our past discussions about catfish being super tasters, 256 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 2: you know, and really when and again it come back 257 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 2: to that situation where we have our human understanding of 258 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 2: the senses, but we have a human level understanding of 259 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: those senses. And so when you're talking about something like 260 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 2: this that is enhanced, it's it's not taste as we 261 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 2: know it, it's something different. 262 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So I was wondering, like, what do we 263 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 3: know about what kind of difference this makes? What difference 264 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 3: does it make in the lives of these fish. So 265 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 3: there are a few things mentioned in this review. One 266 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 3: is that multiple studies have found what appears to be 267 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 3: in enhanced sensitivity to chemical repellence and taste sources in 268 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 3: the water in the cavefish when compared to the surface fish. 269 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 3: So just one example is a study by Humbach in 270 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 3: nineteen sixty that found in the cave fish compared to 271 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 3: the common minno, that the modality for bitter sensation was 272 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 3: three hundred times more acute roughly, and then the salty 273 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 3: slash acid slash sweet modality difference was about two thousand 274 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 3: to four thousand times more acute in the cavefish. So 275 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 3: much greater, much lower. I guess threshold of sensitivity to 276 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 3: these tastes also protus at all. In two thousand and 277 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 3: eight found quote amino acids dissolved in system water were 278 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 3: detected at a much lower concentration in paschone cavefish. That's 279 00:16:54,960 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 3: from one particular cave source paschone cavefish compared to surface fish. 280 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 3: And one possible explanation the authors discuss for this heightened 281 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 3: sensitivity to amino acids could be what they call the 282 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 3: savory taste receptor T one R one. This is the 283 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 3: receptor that binds to glutamate and helps us taste savory 284 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 3: umami flavors. So I wonder if you could really get 285 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 3: these cavefish going bananas over. You know, something in the water. 286 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 3: A piece of food or whatever is dispersed in the 287 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 3: water if you hit it with a bit of the 288 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 3: good old MSG. 289 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 2: I bet, or maybe one of those little fish shaped 290 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 2: soy soy sauce. 291 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, we get some soy sauce, some parmesan cheese, some tomatoes, 292 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 3: some MSG all the good, all the good savory things. However, 293 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 3: the authors do say that several amino acids were used 294 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 3: in the study that found this, so there could be 295 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 3: other explanations, possibly also involving old faction rather than taste. 296 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 3: But anyway, what difference would these these taste but arrangements 297 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 3: and heightened sensitivity to flavors make in terms of the 298 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 3: behavior of the fish the author's right quote. One recent 299 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 3: study argued that external taste buds are used for preliminary 300 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 3: assessment of food items during random swimming or targeted searches 301 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 3: for food. Extra oral taste buds thus carry in importance 302 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 3: for determining whether to pursue or avoid a food item. So, 303 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 3: the way I understand that is it's heightening the fish's 304 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 3: foraging efficiency basically by saying, before you even get something 305 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 3: in the mouth, you're tasting the water around this thing 306 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 3: with the front of your face, and it helps you 307 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 3: zero in more quickly on something that is good to 308 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 3: eat or is not good to eat, Like you're getting, 309 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 3: you're getting an idea about whether you're coming close to 310 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 3: a good piece of food or not earlier. So that 311 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 3: would make your foraging more efficient. 312 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense in the And. 313 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 3: However, they do say that this is just an area 314 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 3: that hasn't had enough research yet. They say that the 315 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 3: quote precise function of cavefish extraoral taste buds remains unclear 316 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 3: and largely unexplored. And then they also say that future 317 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 3: studies need to do things like excluding the role of 318 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 3: old faction or smell and isolating the variable of taste. 319 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 3: And there are differences that even remain that they did 320 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 3: examine in the paper that we just don't know how 321 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 3: to explain yet, but could possibly be related to taste. 322 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 3: One interesting idea they bring up is the feeding angle. 323 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 3: So they say, you know, if you look at the 324 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 3: cave variants of these fish versus the surface variants, one 325 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 3: thing you will notice is that they both go along 326 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 3: the bottom. There might be like a stony or sandy 327 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 3: or pebbly bottom of the water source where they are 328 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 3: and they'll go along the bottom with their mouth down 329 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 3: to the bottom, kind of searching for little bits of 330 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 3: food to eat or you know, prey in the case 331 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 3: of you know, carnivory or just little bits of dead 332 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 3: organic matter, whatever it is they're coming across to eat. 333 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 3: They're scouring the bottom for it. For some reason, the 334 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 3: surface fish have a steeper angle that they forage at 335 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 3: with their body more it's almost more totally vertical, whereas 336 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 3: the cavefish tend to forage at a more slanted angle 337 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 3: that's closer. It's more like fifty five degrees from the 338 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 3: bottom versus more like eighty degrees in the surface variant. 339 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 3: They say this could be related to the changes in 340 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 3: extraoral taste buds. Maybe it's you know, like they're tasting 341 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 3: things differently, thus they have to orient their bodies differently. 342 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 3: Don't know, but interesting question. 343 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean this this is fascinating to think about, 344 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 2: Like it makes one wonder if it has something to 345 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 2: do with their being more predation opportunities for the surface fish, 346 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 2: Like you've got to come in at that steeper angle 347 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 2: because there's a greater risk of things, you know, on 348 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 2: the floor of the of the sea or what have you, 349 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 2: that might come after them while they're feeding, and maybe 350 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 2: those are absent in these cave environments. Again, you know 351 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 2: we're talking about like a lack of just biodiversity in 352 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 2: those environments. You know there's many fewer predators, et cetera. 353 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 2: But who knows. That's just me spitballing. 354 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 3: I don't want to act like I'm just look at 355 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 3: a diagram and a paper and answer the question. But 356 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 3: just one thing I wonder about is looking at the 357 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 3: looking again at the diagram of where these extra oral 358 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 3: taste buds are in the surface fish. Remember they're all 359 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,719 Speaker 3: like right at the mouth, but in the in the 360 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 3: cave variant, a lot of them tend to be spread 361 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 3: out along the lower jaw. So I wonder if it 362 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 3: can come in at this shallower angle because it's sort 363 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 3: of like feeling and tasting more along the bottom without 364 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 3: having to get the front of its mouth in contact 365 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 3: with it. It can kind of taste with the the 366 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 3: slope of its lower jaw. 367 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, that would make a lot of sense. 368 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 3: But yeah, again, don't know. Interesting questions about Usually when 369 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 3: you think about fish and taste together, you're thinking about 370 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 3: what a fish tastes like to you not what it's 371 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 3: like to taste as a fish. 372 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, which again it can put you an entirely different 373 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 2: sense realities, especially considering things like a catfish. But also 374 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 2: you know, getting into taste and smell. Whenever I read 375 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 2: information about, you know, the distances at which fish in 376 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: the ocean can detect other things going on, say blood 377 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 2: in the water or some sort of rotting tissue, I'm 378 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 2: always just amazed because again it is an experience of 379 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 2: the ocean that is just unlike anything we can experience 380 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 2: when we venture into it. And the same holds true 381 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: of the cave. Like when we enter into the cave, 382 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 2: our experiences are rather different compared to the organisms that 383 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 2: have evolved to thrive there. Now the place I'd like 384 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 2: to turn to next. This this gets into something that 385 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 2: was probably one of the key reasons I decided this 386 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 2: would be a good series for us to do, you know, 387 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 2: to to return to cave biology. 388 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 3: Uh. 389 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 2: This and the fact that I was also inspired by 390 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 2: some cave environment related stuff at the Bishop Museum on 391 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 2: a Wahuo recently when I returned there and got to 392 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 2: take in their natural history section in addition to their 393 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 2: their cultural and historical sections. But yeah, this is the 394 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 2: revelation that really pushed me over the edge that for 395 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 2: many cave environments, bat guano is sunlight. Ooh, bat guano, 396 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 2: that's bat poop if you will, if you if you're 397 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 2: not familiar essentially in these environments, yes, this is the 398 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 2: light of the sun. This plays a vital role in 399 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 2: the food chain because remember light is the first step 400 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 2: in the food chain of the Epigean world. Sunlight reaches 401 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 2: the surface where photo autotrophic organisms create food via sunlight, 402 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 2: carbon dioxide and water. These are autotrophs, and we call 403 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 2: this the trophic level of the food chain. 404 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 3: Right, So yeah, this came up in the last episode 405 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 3: that almost all of the food chain where we're really 406 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 3: familiar with is happening where the base layer of the 407 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 3: food chain is using energy from the sunlight to make 408 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 3: its food. And then we of course you know, other 409 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 3: organisms eat those organisms and on and on it goes. 410 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 3: But if you don't have the sunlight to power the 411 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 3: food synthesis at the base layer of the food chain, 412 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 3: what do you do? 413 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 2: That's right? Yeah, yeah, most of it depends on sunlight. Plants, 414 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 2: our autotrophs, as our seaweed phytal blanked in some kinds 415 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 2: of bacteria, including bacteria that produce their own own food 416 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 2: vio chemosynthesis around volcanic vents. But most of the producers 417 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 2: are producing their own food via the process of photosynthesis 418 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 2: and therefore require the bounty of sunlight. The next trophic 419 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 2: layer of the food chain is of course the primary consumers, 420 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 2: who eat the producers, the herbivores being chief among them. 421 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 2: And then the predators compose the third trophic layer, the 422 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 2: secondary consumers, followed by the tertiary consumers and on up 423 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 2: to the apex predators. And then you have you know, 424 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 2: you also have the other roles in there, you know, 425 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 2: the scavengers, the decomposers, and so forth. Now it's pointed 426 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 2: out by sakoy at All in The Life Hidden Inside Caves, 427 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 2: published twenty twenty in the International Journal of Ecology. Cave 428 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: ecosystems are intrinsically devoid of primary productivity due to the 429 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 2: absence of light. Again, light may enter the opening of 430 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 2: a cave to different degrees, and other caves may feature 431 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 2: open areas or areas with sort of like naturally occurring skylights. 432 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 2: But past those pools of light there is only darkness, 433 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 2: and that means again no photo autotrophic organisms. 434 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 3: Right, So this raises a question of how could there 435 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 3: really be anything like an ecosystem inside a cave unless 436 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 3: I don't know, it was just like unless things were 437 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 3: coming and going from the outside to the inside constantly 438 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 3: and eating each other in between. You know, how could 439 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 3: there really be anything sustained within the cave purely in 440 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 3: the dark. 441 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 2: And that's where bats enter the picture. We've of course 442 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 2: talked about bats before. You have various species of bats 443 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 2: that roost in cave environments and do so in vast numbers. 444 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: So batguano instead offers a major food source, a kind 445 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 2: of alternate sunshine, brown sunshine if you will, that falls 446 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 2: upon the floor of caverns where insectivore or frugivorous bats roost. 447 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 2: So yeah, bats that eat insects, bats that eat fruit. 448 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 2: So we're talking about bats species that are generally nocturnal 449 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 2: or crepuscular, that go out and feed and then return 450 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 2: to the seclusion of their caves where they roost on 451 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 2: the ceiling, and when they poop, they poop on the 452 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 2: floor below them, and that poop brings in quite a 453 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 2: few nutrients. 454 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 3: So it's not like the base the photo autotrop layer outside, 455 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 3: because in that case it is that would be organisms 456 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:29,959 Speaker 3: that are fundamentally synthesizing chemical food energy out of what 457 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 3: was originally inorganic sunlight energy. In this case, they are 458 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 3: bringing energy in already in the form of chemical food 459 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 3: energy and pooping it out on the floor, but it 460 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 3: becomes like a new base layer of a food chain 461 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 3: within the cave. 462 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 2: Exactly. Yes, And I will also add it is like 463 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 2: sunlight in that you can replace the word sun or 464 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 2: sunlight with baguano in any song lyric and it will 465 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 2: work just as well. So please feel free to try 466 00:27:58,680 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 2: that on your own time. 467 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 3: I'm walking on guano. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it works perfectly, 468 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 3: don't I feel good? 469 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 2: So this guano often serves as the primary renewable organic 470 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 2: resource of these caves, and a whole food chain extends 471 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 2: from this, supporting various bacteria, fungi, protus, and small arthropods. Now, 472 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 2: according to Sokoya at all, the exact blend of nutrients 473 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 2: is going to vary depending on broad category and specific 474 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 2: species of bat, but the end result is that the 475 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 2: fields of poop beneath the bats just become teeming with life, 476 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: life enough to support an ecosystem of organisms, including those 477 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 2: visiting from the outside, other creatures that spend part of 478 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 2: their time in the caves, and also of course obligate 479 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 2: cave dwellers that are there all the time. Also, this 480 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 2: was interesting, the fermentation of the biomass, along with the 481 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 2: presence of all those warm blooded bat colonies actually heats 482 00:28:58,080 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 2: up the caves. 483 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 3: Oh, that's interesting. You know, that's a difference that is 484 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 3: acknowledged in some of the literature I've looked at, but 485 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 3: we haven't really talked about much. Which is a difference 486 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 3: between cave environments and the surface is not only the 487 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 3: lack of sunlight, but a much more constant temperature than 488 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 3: you get on the surface. 489 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 2: Though. 490 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 3: I guess this could be changed if yeah, you're bringing 491 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 3: in a lot of biomass, and that's sort of like 492 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 3: warming up the cavern. 493 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, like at base level, it's like life in the 494 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 2: wine cellar. But then if you get enough life in 495 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: the wine cellar, well, things they can have elevated temperatures, 496 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 2: but still going to be pretty dependable, it sounds like, though, 497 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 2: I guess you do have to factor in that there 498 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 2: are sometimes fluctuations in these the occupation by bats and 499 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: so forth. 500 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 3: I do have to apologize. I'm only half following the 501 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 3: conversation now because my brain is just running through song 502 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 3: lyrics like I've been waiting so long to be where 503 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 3: I'm going in the guano of your love of guano. 504 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 2: On my shoulder shoulders makes me happy. Yeah, yeah, I 505 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 2: want to read a quote here from the sequoiad All 506 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 2: paper that gets into some of the details here of 507 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 2: the guano quote. For example, small metazoins such as mites, pseudoscorpions, beetles, thrips, mites, 508 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 2: and flies inhabit the guano of insectivorous bats, whereas the 509 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 2: guano of frugivorous bat bats is frequented by spiders, mites, isopods, millipedes, centipedes, waiters, 510 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 2: bark lice, and insects. Salamander and cavefish populations and invertebrate 511 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 2: communities also rely heavily on nutrients from the bat guano. 512 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 2: They also point out that batguano constitutes a niche of 513 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 2: several varieties of micro organisms, including fungi, protus, lichen viruses, 514 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 2: and bacteria. 515 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 3: I wonder if the batguano is primarily sweet or savory. 516 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 2: I guess we'd have to ask those blind cavefish from earlier. 517 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, though, to be fair, in that quote, it just 518 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 3: said that the cavefish populations rely on nutrients from bat guano. 519 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 3: I don't know if that means they eat it directly 520 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 3: or they eat other things that that eat it, or true. 521 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 2: Sure that that is essential, and I believe that something 522 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 2: Sekoy at All point out is that it's yeah, there 523 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 2: aren't necessarily there are organisms that depend on the guano 524 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 2: that are not directly eating the guano, but they are 525 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 2: able to thrive on the things that do consume and 526 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 2: thrive on the guano directly. Now, it's It's also worth 527 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 2: noting that the presence of the bats themselves also produces 528 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 2: feeding and opportunities for either scavengers or predators. I'm going 529 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 2: to probably have more on this particular tidbit in the 530 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 2: next episode. And yeah, there is another interesting thing that 531 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 2: they point out is all of this can potentially change 532 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 2: over time as well, you know, stable environments, but not 533 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 2: necessarily you know, eternal. I was reading a CBC radio 534 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 2: story about a University of Ottawa study of bat guano 535 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 2: in a specific Jamaican cave or cave system. I believe 536 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 2: this cave is known as home away from home cave. 537 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 2: It's very remote and it has been a subject of 538 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 2: some scientific study, and they were looking at it and 539 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 2: they were able to observe a shift over in the 540 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 2: past from insect eating bats to fruit eating bats, though 541 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 2: it was unclear as of twenty twenty one if this 542 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 2: was a change in diet by a specific species or 543 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 2: perhaps more likely, the influx of a different bat species 544 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 2: that had a different diet. They also found increased guano 545 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 2: levels of cadmium, mercury, lead, and zinc present during the 546 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: same time as the Industrial Revolution, so they were getting 547 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 2: into like, you know, we can see this change. We 548 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 2: can see this environmental change brought on by the Industrial 549 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 2: revolution in the guano of these bats in this remote Jamaican. 550 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 3: Cave, heavy metal guano. 551 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, of course we have various other creatures besides 552 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 2: the bat, but also from the era of bats to 553 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 2: consider that are now extinct that would have entered into 554 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 2: caves and would have defecated. We have like the cave 555 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 2: bear that is extinct, the extinct cave hyena. Copy lights 556 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 2: from both of these species. Fossilized fecal matter has been 557 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 2: discovered in caves. Now, another tidbit, and this is something 558 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 2: you could definitely go in deeper on. We could come 559 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 2: back to another episode in the future at some point Sequoiad. 560 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 2: I'll point out that the other thing about batguano is 561 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 2: that human beings figured out that, hey, this stuff has value. 562 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 2: So cave environments have also long been exploited by human 563 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 2: beings due to its economic value as a fertilizer and also, 564 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 2: for at least for a while there, it was harvested 565 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 2: to produce gunpowder, and all of this can impact these 566 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 2: cave environments. Here's another interesting thing. Bats, the bats that 567 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 2: enter into these caves. These caves, they are not set 568 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 2: in stone. They are changing. We just discussed how these 569 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 2: caves form over geologic time in the first episode. But 570 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 2: the bats by roosting in the caves physically change them 571 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 2: roosting on the ceiling with their little claws, so that 572 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 2: physically changes the cave. And then also there's chemical augmentation 573 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 2: of the caves via their urination, because yeah, they're going 574 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 2: They're going both number one and number two in that 575 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: cave system, and it does have an impact. 576 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 3: Oh do you know if the urination does it primarily 577 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 3: like build structures or dissolve parts of the cave. 578 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 2: I believe it is more dissolving. Yeah, okay, Again, we're 579 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 2: dealing often with limestone cave systems and so forth. So 580 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 2: that's my understanding here, because I know what you're thinking. 581 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 2: Do we end up with with actual. 582 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 3: Like bat piece stalagmites, Yeah, bat piece stalagmites. 583 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 2: I do not have an answer to that, but I 584 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 2: think it is more of a dissolving of the cave 585 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 2: system that is in play here. 586 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 3: Wait a minute, hold on, I just googled bat piece 587 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 3: stalagmites with large numbers of bats, thick and hard stalacti. 588 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 3: Since stalagmites have crystallized bat urine occasionally form. 589 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 2: Well there you go. Okay, so that is also possible. 590 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 2: It's just a wonderful world down there. It's a whole 591 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:10,720 Speaker 2: new world. 592 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 3: Sorry, I should say, since I read that directly. That 593 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 3: was from something called the Internet Center for Wildlife Damage Management. 594 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,240 Speaker 3: I don't know what that is, but that's what they claim. 595 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was another art. I didn't get into this 596 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 2: article a lot. Maybe I could come back more in 597 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 2: the next episode, but there was a twenty twenty one 598 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 2: article in The New York Times titled how bats and 599 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 2: their poop erase ancient cave art, and that one got 600 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 2: into this issue of it because again they're changing the 601 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 2: caves and sometimes that can change things that prehistoric humans did. Wow. 602 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 2: They point out that large quantities of the urine and 603 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 2: the guano it ferments, it can saturate the air with 604 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 2: quote aerosolized particles of phosphoric acid. So it's a rich 605 00:35:54,400 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 2: world down there. Goodbye horsetoodle. Now an interest and largely 606 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:06,839 Speaker 2: unanswered question for me, They would get some answers on it. 607 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,439 Speaker 2: Pertains to the question what might cave environments have been 608 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 2: like before the evolution of cave roosting bats, Because again, 609 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 2: bats are mammals, and mammals have not in their highly 610 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 2: successful mammals. They've been around for a while, but they 611 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 2: haven't always been around. So what would have potentially pooped 612 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 2: up these caves and sustained these ecosystems before bats. 613 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 3: That's a good point. So if like the base layer 614 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 3: of the food, the food web within the cave is 615 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 3: emerging from back guano and there were at a time 616 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 3: no bats to bring the guano in, could there be 617 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 3: an ecosystem in the cave at all? 618 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 2: Exactly? Yeah, And I think by and large. The answer 619 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 2: is yes, there would have been things that have done that. 620 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:53,720 Speaker 2: And we know that in part because even today bats 621 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 2: are not the only trogs to poop in a cave. 622 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 2: They are considerable factors, but crickets are often brought up. 623 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 2: Is another major cave cooper that allows the sun to 624 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 2: shine in these lightless places. So it would seem that 625 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 2: prebat organisms would have taken advantage of the cave niche 626 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 2: to do, you know, to whatever degree they could. One 627 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 2: of the things about investigations into cave fossils is that 628 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 2: fossils that you find in deep caves aren't necessarily telling 629 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 2: you about subterranean life. Tracks in the floor or even 630 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 2: ceilings of deep caves may actually be insightful about life 631 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,320 Speaker 2: along shorelines of the surface. You know. That's the degree 632 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,720 Speaker 2: of time that we're dealing with, and considering the lights 633 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 2: of for instance, a five hundred meter deep that's a 634 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 2: third of a mile deep cavern in France. I was 635 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 2: reading about this is and I may be butchering French. 636 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 2: Here likely am castel book cave. Here, for instance, you'll 637 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 2: find dino footprints that were first etched in mud or 638 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 2: sand on a beach one hundred million years ago and 639 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 2: they've just been gradually forced underground over time. 640 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,760 Speaker 3: So it's not like they were formed in the cave. 641 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 3: These are rocks that were formed on the surface and 642 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 3: then they later emerged in a cave. 643 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and kind of similar to like, oh, you can't 644 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 2: find a trillobyte in a mountain and be like, these 645 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,320 Speaker 2: were the mountain trilobites, Like, it's not really what's happening. 646 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,280 Speaker 2: But of course this doesn't mean we don't have evidence 647 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 2: of dinosaur age cave dwellers. As reported by Nature in 648 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, cockroaches preserved in amber from ninety nine million 649 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 2: years ago are likely the oldest evidence we have of 650 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 2: organisms evolved for life in a cave environment. 651 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 3: One hundred million year old cave cockroaches. What were they like? 652 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 2: Oh, they were kind of scary. I included an image 653 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,320 Speaker 2: here of one for you, Joe. This is one of 654 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 2: the species that they were looking at, and you'll see 655 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 2: that it has front appendages these kind of like raptorial 656 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 2: fore legs, much like a praying mantis, which means they 657 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,839 Speaker 2: were likely a highighly predatory species in their cave environments. 658 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 2: M So that's one of the features that they found 659 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 2: on these these amber preserved specimens. There's lost coloration, there's 660 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 2: reduced wing and eye size, elongated antennae, and reduced leg 661 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 2: spines for passive defense. So two species were discovered in 662 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 2: amber in this cave from me and Mar, one of 663 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 2: which apparently had these raptorial four legs, meaning it was 664 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: likely primarily a predator. And according to Paper and Cosmos 665 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 2: magazine by James Urkhart, one of the interesting things about 666 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,720 Speaker 2: this find is that the specimens in question would seem 667 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 2: to have mid Cretaceous origins, but all cave animals living 668 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 2: today have a late Cinozoic origin. Now, why these older 669 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 2: cave organisms died out is apparently a mystery, because it 670 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,760 Speaker 2: would seem like an ideal place to shelter and survive 671 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 2: surface world extinct events, but obviously that's not the case. 672 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 2: The article also stresses that it's not impossible that these 673 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 2: cockroaches may have survived even into modern times in one 674 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,320 Speaker 2: form or another, because our understanding of living insects is 675 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:18,439 Speaker 2: of course incomplete, so it's not impossible that even though 676 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 2: we're gazing backwards through time with this particular specimen, its 677 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 2: genetic legacy could still be alive today. The article here 678 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 2: is quite good. It also stresses some of the larger 679 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,759 Speaker 2: challenges of understanding such ancient cave environments and figuring out 680 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 2: what they consisted of. Other mesozoa, cave organisms certainly existed, 681 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 2: but either we get into the same problems we encounter 682 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 2: with the inherent incompleteness of fossils in general on the 683 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,800 Speaker 2: fossil record, because either a cave system collapsed long ago 684 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 2: or key to this example, didn't allow fossil preservation. This case, 685 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 2: amber containing cave organisms is rather unique because a tree 686 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 2: is not going to grow in said cave. They say 687 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:09,880 Speaker 2: this is kind of like a one in a million 688 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,760 Speaker 2: fine because it probably depended on resin from a tree 689 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,799 Speaker 2: growing directly in the mouth of a cave, like in 690 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 2: exactly the right place, exactly the wrong right time, in 691 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 2: order to capture this creature that otherwise would not be 692 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,320 Speaker 2: venturing out of the caves to climb around on trees. 693 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting, and I was wondering I was going 694 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,439 Speaker 3: to ask about exactly that, like how does a cave 695 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 3: cockroach get trapped in amber? So I guess the answer 696 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 3: is probably very rarely happened. We're incredibly lucky to have 697 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 3: this this unique find. 698 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it just raises the question, like what else 699 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,280 Speaker 2: it would have been down there that we didn't crawl 700 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,359 Speaker 2: into the amber. You know, there's again just so many 701 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 2: mysteries within within the fossil record, and back to the 702 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 2: earlier point, so many mysteries remaining and just sort of 703 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 2: the in the the existing organic world. You know, we're 704 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 2: still making discoveries regarding insects, cave environments, of cave ecosystems. 705 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 2: It's I mean, it's really exciting. 706 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 3: No doubt, and you know what, I think we're going 707 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 3: to have to end today's episode there, but we've got 708 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 3: more cave stuff to talk about. So we're going to 709 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 3: be back with part three definitely. 710 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 2: That's right. We're going to get into some cave creditors 711 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 2: and who knows what else. All right, stuff to blow 712 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,240 Speaker 2: your mind. As you know, Core episodes are on Tuesdays 713 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 2: and Thursday. We're primarily a science and culture podcast, and 714 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,799 Speaker 2: then on Mondays we do listener mail. On Wednesdays we 715 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 2: do a short form episode and then on Fridays we 716 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,879 Speaker 2: set us on most serious concerns to just talk about 717 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 2: a weird film on Weird House Cinema. We bust Out 718 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 2: a rerun on the weekends. 719 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 3: Huge thanks, as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 720 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 721 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 722 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:55,919 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 723 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 724 00:42:59,040 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 725 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 726 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,799 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 727 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.