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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus.

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Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my

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Speaker 1: weekly bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a

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Speaker 1: book agent and what I'm watching on TV that week.

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Speaker 1: You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts

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Speaker 1: like Revisionis History, Cautionary Tales, and The Happiness Lab. Sign

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Speaker 1: up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple

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Speaker 1: Podcasts or at pushkin dot com. Disha Philly y'all grew

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Speaker 1: up surrounded by women in Jacksonville, Florida, who would eventually

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Speaker 1: aspire her debut collection of short stories, The Secret Lives

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Speaker 1: of Church Ladies. I looked at the women who dressed

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Speaker 1: the part and acted the part, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be them, but I don't know how.

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Speaker 1: And also these women who aren't like them, they're having

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Speaker 1: more fun. They're going to hell, but they're having more fun.

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Speaker 1: Her collection explores the confusing double standards she experienced growing

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Speaker 1: up in the Black church, where redemption is not readily

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Speaker 1: available for women and many topics are two taboo to

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Speaker 1: discuss openly. So I was confused by church. Critics and

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Speaker 1: readers alike loved the revealing stories, and her book went

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Speaker 1: on to win the twenty twenty one Penn Faulkner Award

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Speaker 1: for Fiction. It's also being adapted into a mini series

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Speaker 1: for HBO Matt which I can't wait to watch. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Well Read Black Girl, the literary kickback you didn't

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Speaker 1: even know you needed. I'm your host, Glory Adam. Each

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Speaker 1: week I sit in conversation with one of my favorite authors,

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Speaker 1: and among other things, we talk about the craft of writing.

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Speaker 1: In my conversation with Disha phil y'all, we talk about

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Speaker 1: both of our complex relationships with the church, how intimate

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Speaker 1: she gets with her characters, and how black women have

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Speaker 1: shaped her life both on and off the page. Hey girl,

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Speaker 1: how's it going. Hello, I'm great. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: I am so happy to have you on the podcast

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Speaker 1: because I have questions on poon questions. I actually read

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Speaker 1: your book like it was like my secret treat. It

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Speaker 1: was like my own little thing that I would like

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Speaker 1: curl up in bed and read and then go to

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Speaker 1: my group text message and be like, girl, did you

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Speaker 1: get to this part? Did you read this yet? It

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Speaker 1: just it just felt so right, like being in the

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Speaker 1: church and leaning towards the teachings, but also trying to

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Speaker 1: understand desire and sexuality, and just like your blackness and

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Speaker 1: being full like you address all these things. It feels

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Speaker 1: like you. And granted I don't know you know you,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like I know you. Thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's such an intimate book, and that's really

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Speaker 1: what I wanted it to be. Really an intimate look

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Speaker 1: at black women's interior lives and how we speak, how

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Speaker 1: we speak to each other, how we, you know, talk

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Speaker 1: about ourselves. That is something so special about our work, right,

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Speaker 1: Like when we see each other, it feels immediate. It's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: like she understands. I would love to start from the

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Speaker 1: very beginning. How did reading and literature up in your childhood?

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Speaker 1: So I apparently read early. My mom said I could

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Speaker 1: three when I was three, and she said she read

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Speaker 1: to me a lot, but to her chagrin, I had

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Speaker 1: no recollection of being read to. But I remember reading.

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Speaker 1: I've always been really enamored with language and words early on.

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Speaker 1: You know. I read Judy Bloom like many of us do.

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Speaker 1: But I did get into some of James Baldwin's work

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Speaker 1: and even Tony Morrison and Alice Walker in high school,

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Speaker 1: but in elementary school, my next door neighborhood was my godmother.

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Speaker 1: She had a whole bookshelf, which for me was like

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Speaker 1: having a library at your house, which blew my mind.

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Speaker 1: And so she had adult novels. So I remember I

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Speaker 1: was eight, I read The Happy Hooker. I read Portnoy's Complaints. No,

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Speaker 1: not The Happy Hooker. I was reading stuff that I

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Speaker 1: had no business reading. And honestly, you know, a lot

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Speaker 1: of things that I learned about sex was from books.

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Speaker 1: I remember reading Jackie Collins novels in the library, sitting

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Speaker 1: on the floor of the public library in Jacksonville and

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Speaker 1: reading biology books, just trying to figure out this mystery,

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Speaker 1: you know, of sex. But other books like Louise Merriweather's

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Speaker 1: Daddy Was a Number Runner, opened up other worlds and

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Speaker 1: just let me know that there is a big world

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Speaker 1: out there, and it made me curious and let me

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Speaker 1: know that I could aspire to go places that could

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Speaker 1: actually build a life beyond the one that I had.

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Speaker 1: I read Terry McMillan, Jay California Cooper. You know so

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Speaker 1: many black women authors because like you said about my book,

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Speaker 1: those were the stories and the voices that spoke to

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Speaker 1: me and my experience, and people who were writing about

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Speaker 1: people that lived like we lived. Always had a very

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Speaker 1: rich reading life straight through college and into my early

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Speaker 1: adulthood after college, but I really didn't start writing until

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Speaker 1: my late twenties. But I have always been a reader.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned the Happy Hooker, You mentioned Jay California Cooper,

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Speaker 1: and Terry McMillan, like you had these vast examples of

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Speaker 1: black womanhood or even just girlhood and coming of age.

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Speaker 1: How did you come to understand what being a good

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Speaker 1: girl meant and who you are becoming as you were

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Speaker 1: reading all these things. I got so much conflicting information

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Speaker 1: about it, as we, you know, all of us do,

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Speaker 1: especially those of us who have a connection with the church,

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Speaker 1: because on the surface, what it seemed like to me

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Speaker 1: is that there were a lot of rules to be

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Speaker 1: a good girl. Didn't seem to be any rules for boys,

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Speaker 1: but it seemed like with girls there was so much

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Speaker 1: you couldn't do, There was so much risk, there was

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Speaker 1: so much fear, and then there seemed to be a

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Speaker 1: war inside because of course we had those natural desires

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Speaker 1: and urges, and so what I learned early on about

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Speaker 1: being a good girl is that you had to hide stuff,

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Speaker 1: you know. And then, of course, as kids were so

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Speaker 1: self centered and not realizing we got secrets, other people

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Speaker 1: have secrets too, you know, And that curiosity kind of

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Speaker 1: extended to the women around me too, And how were

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Speaker 1: they kind of navigating this idea that you were supposed

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Speaker 1: to be chased, that sex was reserved for marriage. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know what to make of the fact that that

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Speaker 1: wasn't observed by the women around me. My mother was

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Speaker 1: a single mother, my grandmother was a single mother, and

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Speaker 1: weren't they good. You know, they didn't go to church,

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Speaker 1: but they sent me to church, so clearly they were

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Speaker 1: trying to make me good, and that was a lot

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Speaker 1: of pressure. You know. My mother had me when she

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Speaker 1: was eighteen, she got pregnant when she was seventeen, so

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Speaker 1: I knew, even without her ever saying the words, that

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Speaker 1: the expectation was that that not happened to me, and

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Speaker 1: that you know, it'd be something that it happens to you.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's not this agency. And so it seemed

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Speaker 1: like being a good girl meant being very passive and

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Speaker 1: having a lot of desire and wanting and longing to

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Speaker 1: overcome the appearance of chastity and holiness and being untouched

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Speaker 1: when you know, what we want most of all, it

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Speaker 1: was to be touched, you know, yes, and that touch

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Speaker 1: isn't necessarily always a romantic desire, that is just like

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Speaker 1: an embrace of love and nourishment, you know. Absolutely. It's

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Speaker 1: really interesting to hear that your grandmother and mother didn't

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Speaker 1: go to church, but they were adamant about sending you

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Speaker 1: to church. So how would you describe your relationship with

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Speaker 1: the church growing up? Yeah, you know, it was one

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Speaker 1: of those things like we just accept a lot from

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Speaker 1: our parents without question. I think our generation is such

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Speaker 1: that we were to be seen and not heard. And

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Speaker 1: I only asked about that one time and my grandmother,

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Speaker 1: you know, her response let me know she didn't want

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Speaker 1: to talk about it, but what she said was when

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Speaker 1: I get myself together, when I get right, I'll go

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Speaker 1: to church. And even as a kid, I was confused

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Speaker 1: because I was like that, I thought church was where

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Speaker 1: you go to get right. But in retrospect, I understand

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Speaker 1: now as two single mothers, my mother and my grandmother

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Speaker 1: didn't feel welcome at church. You know, I think fear

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Speaker 1: judgment I think they felt shame, but they clearly weren't

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Speaker 1: rejecting the church's position around these things because they sent me,

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Speaker 1: and it was like I could be salvaged, you know, somehow.

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Speaker 1: And so I went to church and that's all I'd

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Speaker 1: ever known, and I took everything to heart about being

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Speaker 1: good and heaven and hell. But I was very terrified

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Speaker 1: because I was like, I want to get this right.

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Speaker 1: I looked at the women who dressed the part and

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Speaker 1: acted the part, and I was like, I'm supposed to

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Speaker 1: be them, but I don't know how. And also these

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Speaker 1: women who aren't like them, they're having more fun. They're

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Speaker 1: going to hell, but they're having more fun. So I

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Speaker 1: was confused by church. Yeah. Well, when you read the

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Speaker 1: Bible and you're taking in the messaging the teaching, it

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Speaker 1: can feel very binary. It's like Yavn's hell black white,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing in between. And then you're sitting there listening

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Speaker 1: to the pastor on the pulpit and you're like, how

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Speaker 1: do I choose, especially when you're young and you're just

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Speaker 1: trying to figure it all out? That's right. I have

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Speaker 1: this quote that is one of my favorite of yours

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Speaker 1: that really just embodies what you're doing with your work.

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Speaker 1: It's us here. The stories are the kinds of things

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Speaker 1: that black women whisper amongst ourselves. So those are the

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Speaker 1: secrets about how we navigate our full humanity, our full sexuality,

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Speaker 1: our full sexual lives in the face of the church's teachings.

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Speaker 1: What I really appreciated about your book is this idea

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Speaker 1: of exploring what it means to heal from those teachings

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Speaker 1: and accept yourself right. I think my healing came before

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Speaker 1: I was writing these stories. It came because I got

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Speaker 1: divorced around the time that my mother and my grandmother died.

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Speaker 1: They both died the same year, and it was the

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Speaker 1: same year that I separated from my first husband, And

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Speaker 1: at that point I looked at my life and it was,

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Speaker 1: you know, I married a good Christian man. I didn't

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Speaker 1: have babies or even get pregnant before I was married.

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Speaker 1: I did everything right, and yet I wasn't happy. I

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Speaker 1: felt so empty and so lonely and so sad, and

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Speaker 1: so those things in my relationship with the church kind

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Speaker 1: of got all tangled up together. I think inside I

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Speaker 1: had left the church years before I physically left the church,

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Speaker 1: and after my mother died, I didn't, you know, consider

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Speaker 1: myself a churchgoer anymore, And so some years later was

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Speaker 1: working on these stories. They were not as personal in

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Speaker 1: terms of the church stuff. There was a lot more

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Speaker 1: mother daughter stuff in the collection that was more what

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Speaker 1: was happening with me at that moment. You said something

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Speaker 1: that just made me think of this idea of more

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Speaker 1: more simply existing and not living. You know, when we

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Speaker 1: were just like moving through the motions of our lives

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Speaker 1: without actually having an appreciation for the joy or experiencing

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Speaker 1: the grief. It's like we're in default mode. And sometimes

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Speaker 1: it takes these like huge milestones, these huge losses, for

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Speaker 1: us to hit the reset button and start living again.

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Speaker 1: So it's like the divorce, the loss of your mother,

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Speaker 1: the loss of your grandmother, and it's like you have

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Speaker 1: to reevaluate everything, everything more. With Disha fili'all after the break,

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Speaker 1: I'm Glory Adam, and you're listening to well Read Black Girl. Today.

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by Disha Filiall, and we're talking about her

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty debut novel, The Secret Lives of Church Ladies,

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Speaker 1: and the inspiration behind this collection of beautiful stories. I

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Speaker 1: want to turn into the book because I know you

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Speaker 1: leaned a lot on your own experience within the church

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Speaker 1: and especially the elders around you to create this wonderful

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Speaker 1: collection of stories. For example, dear sister, Yeah, that's just

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite stories in the book. It says,

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Speaker 1: dear Jackie, I've started this letter about five different times

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Speaker 1: in five different ways. I finally just told myself, you're

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Speaker 1: either going to read it or you're not, and it's

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Speaker 1: not going to come down to how I write it.

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Speaker 1: And the way you started off this letter, I was like,

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Speaker 1: that's me, Like I do that all the time, do

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Speaker 1: that all the time. But you're writing throughout the book

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Speaker 1: is again so sharp. How did you just perfect making

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Speaker 1: it authentic and really true to the characters. I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of it is just from listening, especially you

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Speaker 1: mentioned the elders. And I grew up in a household

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Speaker 1: with my grandmother. You know, my grandmother and my mother

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Speaker 1: raised me. And you know that generation like you, you

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Speaker 1: don't speak, you know, you don't get grown folks business.

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Speaker 1: And so I learned that if I was just quiet,

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Speaker 1: I could stay and I could hear things that maybe

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Speaker 1: I wasn't supposed to hear, things that really kind of

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Speaker 1: stuck with me, and I think that black women's voices,

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Speaker 1: especially black women of a certain age, it's like music,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's just the way that we say things

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Speaker 1: that's just singular. So some of it has just been

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Speaker 1: all of those years of listening, and when it came

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Speaker 1: time to write the book, I was going back in

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Speaker 1: time and really being in the room with these characters,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes I would speak the dialogue, whether it was

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Speaker 1: actual dialogue or their interior monologues, you know, speaking out

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Speaker 1: loud and just hearing how would she say that, you know,

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Speaker 1: or what might that actually be like? And some of

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Speaker 1: these experiences or experiences that lots of us have had,

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Speaker 1: and you know, just trying to inhabit the characters in

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Speaker 1: the a moment or if I'm stuck, I'll ask my

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Speaker 1: characters questions. And a lot of times in interviewing the characters,

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Speaker 1: you know, eighty percent of what I find out may

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Speaker 1: not show up in the story, but I know them

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Speaker 1: better and so that helps me with sort of the

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Speaker 1: details and specificity of how they might do or say

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Speaker 1: a certain thing. You know. I try to go for

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Speaker 1: those details that are very specific and very tender because

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Speaker 1: it makes it real. I'm very visual so I visualize

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Speaker 1: the scenes, and even if it's just my character cooking something,

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Speaker 1: I'm watching her hands and then what is she thinking about?

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Speaker 1: You know? What am I thinking about? When I'm standing

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Speaker 1: over the stove. I get intimate with the characters, and

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Speaker 1: that helps you as a reader to get intimate with

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Speaker 1: them on the page. I'm so impressed with your tenacity.

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Speaker 1: You've been writing over like twenty years, right over, yeah,

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Speaker 1: over twenty years, and it feels, or it appears to

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Speaker 1: me that you just have a great sense of self discipline, impatience,

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Speaker 1: patience with you know, actually writing these stories and putting

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Speaker 1: them together in a way that you feel fit, but

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Speaker 1: also patience with yourself and your surroundings. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: about your writing journey and your relationship with patience as

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Speaker 1: a writer. I don't know that I think of it

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Speaker 1: as patience. I consider myself a pretty impatient person. But

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Speaker 1: what happens that I think a lot of women can

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Speaker 1: relate to if they are mothers, is there's a surrender

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Speaker 1: that kind of happens, because see patience sounds voluntarily. Surrender

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Speaker 1: is like I gave up. You know, these are the

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Speaker 1: cards that I have been dealt. This is the time

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Speaker 1: that I have to write. These are the realities of

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Speaker 1: trying to raise children, trying to be married, you know,

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Speaker 1: trying to balance all of those things. And the legacy

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Speaker 1: that I think too many of us as black women,

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Speaker 1: have inherited is one of servitude and long suffering. And

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Speaker 1: so the journey has been what it's been because I

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Speaker 1: wasn't able to do the one thing that I really

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Speaker 1: wanted to do, which was the right fiction. When I

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Speaker 1: got divorced, I needed to make a living, and so

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Speaker 1: I started doing what a lot of us do as writers,

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Speaker 1: this patchwork quilt of income, and so it became less

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Speaker 1: about these stories I wanted to tell and more about

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Speaker 1: what do I need to do to make money? You know,

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Speaker 1: I need to build a profile. I need to build

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Speaker 1: you know the word they use now, platform and all

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Speaker 1: of those things. And it was very slow going. I

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Speaker 1: think about so many writers that when they're able to

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Speaker 1: do it, it's because somebody else is paying the bills. Right.

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Speaker 1: It is so hard to do the kind of writing

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Speaker 1: that you want to do that you can be proud

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Speaker 1: of and make a living. So we have to do

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Speaker 1: other things, you know. So I've freelanced. I have written marketing,

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Speaker 1: brochure for people. I've done project manage, I've just done

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Speaker 1: all kinds of things while raising my kids, and would

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Speaker 1: always try to have some time for the fiction, you know,

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Speaker 1: try to squeeze it in. It took me a really

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Speaker 1: long time, but the desire was always there. The confidence

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Speaker 1: was there. Confidence came from my mother and my grandmother

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Speaker 1: passing away too soon. My mother was fifty two, and

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Speaker 1: neither of them had done the things that they wanted

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Speaker 1: to do. I don't even know what they wanted to do.

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Speaker 1: When my mother would talk about her life, she would

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Speaker 1: say that I was her greatest accomplishment. And I appreciate

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Speaker 1: how my mother loved me and sacrifice for me, but

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Speaker 1: I wish she had had her own goals and her

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Speaker 1: own dreams and passions and had had the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: pursue them. And so that's why you know, I've been

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Speaker 1: dogged because I'm like, she didn't get that chance. My

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Speaker 1: grandmother didn't get that chance. I have this chance. It

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Speaker 1: might take me longer, but I'm going to do it

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Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna play small. I don't have that luxury.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that last tidbit because we all need these

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Speaker 1: different ways to support ourselves, to support our children, to

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Speaker 1: like actually move towards our dreams. And we can't be

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Speaker 1: as you said, we can't play small, like we have

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Speaker 1: to surrender to the reality of our lives, but move

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Speaker 1: towards the goal with precision and just like a passion.

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Speaker 1: I've had some complicated things happened in my past, and

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Speaker 1: I definitely have that like how did you do it?

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Speaker 1: And I agree with you. It's like, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you have a choice, so we don't have time

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Speaker 1: to waste, right, It's like you have to respond when

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Speaker 1: you've lost or when you've had difficult things you you know,

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Speaker 1: it changes you. It changes your perspective, it changes your

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Speaker 1: sense of urgency. So I'm not saying that I don't

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Speaker 1: have worries or concerns, but at a certain point we

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Speaker 1: have to put things into perspective. And as black women,

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Speaker 1: we're doing it against the tide of a culture that

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Speaker 1: wants nothing more than for us to not prioritize ourselves,

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Speaker 1: to continue worrying about things that in the larger scheme

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Speaker 1: of things don't really matter, but that are a nice distraction.

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Speaker 1: But I think we just have to be daring like

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Speaker 1: that and create our own things. I mean, you know

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Speaker 1: you created well read black girl. You centered us, and

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Speaker 1: what does that say to other black women? I can

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Speaker 1: center myself in the things that I'm passionate about too.

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Speaker 1: When it's time for rapid by, uh okay, already I'm ready.

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Speaker 1: So literally the first thing that comes to your mind. Okay,

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Speaker 1: name three items on your desk. David Dennis's book The

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Speaker 1: Movement made Us some vitamin d oil and lighter to

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Speaker 1: light a candle. Your life's theme song, Oh goodness? You know,

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Speaker 1: maybe Ooh Child by the Five Stairsteps, because as a kid,

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Speaker 1: as a little kid, I love that song and it

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Speaker 1: was saying that you know, things are gonna get easier,

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Speaker 1: things are gonna get brighter, and it's just a really

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Speaker 1: optimistic song. That is a good song. Oh favorite church

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00:21:38,417 --> 00:21:45,057
Speaker 1: snacks Runner Scotch Okay, most memorable church lady, Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: she was my first husband's maternal grandmother, Odessa May Thomas.

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Speaker 1: Favorite book of all time and why of all time?

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Daddy was a number runner Louise Merriweather Classic.

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Speaker 1: Read that book to the covers and pages fell out.

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Speaker 1: I have owned several copies. Okay, this is the last one,

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00:22:07,657 --> 00:22:12,257
Speaker 1: and it's a film. One which movie the Fighting Temptations

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00:22:12,697 --> 00:22:16,257
Speaker 1: or Kingdom Come, Kingdom Come, that's the one with LLL right,

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Speaker 1: because even though he has disappointed me later in life,

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00:22:21,257 --> 00:22:25,857
Speaker 1: not the disappointment. Listen, the summer I was fifteen, I

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00:22:26,017 --> 00:22:30,777
Speaker 1: played I Need Love over and over again in my

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Speaker 1: room because I knew he was singing to me. So

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Speaker 1: I will always love cool James. Oh, I love that.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for this conversation, but also just thank you

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Speaker 1: for all you do for us. Thank you. That means

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00:22:49,617 --> 00:22:52,217
Speaker 1: a lot, Like always so wonderful to come out and

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00:22:52,257 --> 00:22:55,497
Speaker 1: like actually talk to folks and be in like you know,

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00:22:55,617 --> 00:22:58,737
Speaker 1: communion and community. It just feels really good. Now. I

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Speaker 1: love doing this because I can actually like see people again.

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00:23:02,017 --> 00:23:05,257
Speaker 1: You know. The pandemic has changed so much and it's

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00:23:05,297 --> 00:23:08,177
Speaker 1: made me feel distance. Oh we are going through it.

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00:23:08,497 --> 00:23:12,097
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we are still going through it, and we're

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Speaker 1: still showing up for each other and making art and

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Speaker 1: celebrating art. It's because these are the things that we

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Speaker 1: can still do safely. You know. We can read, we

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Speaker 1: can write, we can talk to each other right right.

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Speaker 1: We can't hold each other right now, but we can

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Speaker 1: hold each other in our hearts, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: and life just appreciate our work together and still celebrate

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Speaker 1: each other. So I'm grateful for that. As Black women,

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Speaker 1: we really do not have time to play small, to

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00:23:41,217 --> 00:23:44,657
Speaker 1: dim our light, to not go after the things we

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00:23:44,697 --> 00:23:49,137
Speaker 1: want in life. Disha Philliall's own hardships were a reminder

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Speaker 1: for her to move forward and go after her dream

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Speaker 1: of writing fiction and now Disha's work helps us look

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Speaker 1: at the walking contradictions in our own lives and even

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Speaker 1: teaches us how to learn from our mothers and grandmothers

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Speaker 1: to be better versions of ourselves. Her work reminds me

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Speaker 1: of the prolific writer Margaret Walker, where in her nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty nine poem Lineage, she calls upon her grandmother's My

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Speaker 1: grandmothers are full of memories, smelling of soap and onions

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00:24:23,497 --> 00:24:28,217
Speaker 1: and wet clay, with veins rolling roughly over quick hands.

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Speaker 1: They have many clean words to say. My grandmother's were strong,

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Speaker 1: Why am I not? As they be sure to read

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Speaker 1: Disha Filiol's The Secret Lies of Church Ladies out now.

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Speaker 1: We're off next week, so look out for our next

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Speaker 1: episode on Tuesday, March twenty second. I will be speaking

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Speaker 1: with britt Bennett about her latest book, The Vanishing Half.

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Speaker 1: Well Read black Girl is a production of Pushkin Industries.

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Speaker 1: It is written and hosted by me Glory Edam and

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00:25:12,137 --> 00:25:17,337
Speaker 1: produced by cher Vincent and Brittany Brown. Our associate editor

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00:25:17,537 --> 00:25:21,617
Speaker 1: is Keishall Williams. Our engineer is Amanda ka Wayang, and

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Speaker 1: our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Our executive producers are Miya

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Speaker 1: Lobell and Leetal Molad. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane,

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00:25:32,617 --> 00:25:39,777
Speaker 1: Harley Migliori, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, Jen Goerra, John Schnars,

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00:25:40,417 --> 00:25:43,817
Speaker 1: and Jacob Wiseberg. You can find me on Twitter and

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00:25:43,937 --> 00:25:47,057
Speaker 1: Instagram at Well Read black Girl. You can find pushkin

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00:25:47,137 --> 00:25:50,537
Speaker 1: and all social media platforms at pushkin Pods, and you

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00:25:50,577 --> 00:25:54,297
Speaker 1: can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot Fm.

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Speaker 1: If you love this show and others from Pushkin Industry,

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Speaker 1: consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast

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Speaker 1: subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four

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Speaker 1: ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple

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Speaker 1: podcast subscripts, and if you're already a subscriber, make sure

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00:26:13,977 --> 00:26:17,497
Speaker 1: to check out my exclusive bookmark series on Pushkin Plus

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00:26:17,497 --> 00:26:21,537
Speaker 1: starting on February eighteenth, you'll hear extended interviews with book

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00:26:21,537 --> 00:26:25,737
Speaker 1: club members, bookstore owners, and more. And do you get

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00:26:25,777 --> 00:26:28,497
Speaker 1: to hear what's on my mind, what's on my radar,

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00:26:29,017 --> 00:26:31,897
Speaker 1: and of course, what's on my reading list? Each week.

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00:26:32,777 --> 00:26:37,857
Speaker 1: To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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