1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease, the so called Moscow Mule 2 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: victims wife believe she was about to break in three 3 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: point six million dollars life insurance. 4 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 2: Just let that sink in three point six million. 5 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: Dollars in her back pocket, minus the funeral expenses for 6 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:46,319 Speaker 1: her husband. That is. 7 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 2: Thanks for being with us. I'm Nancy Gracion. 8 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: Joining me is a renowned expert professor of forensics at 9 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on 10 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: Amazon and Starving You hit series Body Bags podcast. Joseph 11 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan Joscott, thank you for taking time away from 12 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: your teaching and your research at Jacksonville State University to 13 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,199 Speaker 1: join us. I'm talking about the victim in this case, 14 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: Eric Richians. I almost said he never saw it coming, 15 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: but you know what he did. There have been two 16 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: prior occasions. Joe Scott Morgan that he at least one 17 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,199 Speaker 1: of the occasions laughingly said, Hey, I think she's trying 18 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: to kill me for the money man. Well, according to prosecutors, 19 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: she did. I want to talk about multiple attempts on 20 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: Eric Richand's life, and it's not just about him, Joe Scott, 21 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: It's about his three little boys that are left behind 22 00:01:55,080 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: three boys nine, seven and five at the time daddy 23 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: is murdered. If Mommy's convicted, they will be orphans. Now 24 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: lay out the facts to me as you understand them, please. 25 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 2: The wife had Forrey Richins. 26 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, had agreed to prepare a celbratory drink for 27 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 3: mister Richards and it was, you know, a Moscow mule. 28 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 3: I was actually just looking at the recipe for it, Nancy. 29 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,399 Speaker 1: Yes, I looked it up. It's ginger beer, which right, 30 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:37,679 Speaker 1: do you know what? I found out A lot of 31 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: drinks that claim that their ginger are not so I 32 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: was looking up drinks that had real ginger in it 33 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: for my son John David. You know, he's been nauseous, 34 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: had a whole lot of issues because he had that. 35 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 1: He was at track and field just just got to think. 36 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: I told you this and some kids practicing discus, and 37 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: some kid came up behind him and started practicing discus. 38 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: That's like being at a shooting range and somebody standing 39 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: right in front of you. No. Anyway, he got hit 40 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: in the head with a steel discus level three concussion. 41 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: You live through that with me. Anyway, I wanted something 42 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: with ginger to help him with nausea, and I had 43 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: to research online what drinks actually really have ginger in them, 44 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: and I found ginger beer non alcoholic, and he loves 45 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: it and it did work. But it's really strong tasting 46 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: and that is the main ingredient in a Moscow mule. 47 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, ginger beer. You know, it's got lime juice in it. 48 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 3: And you know, for the alcohol version, two ounces of vodka. 49 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 3: But you know what it doesn't include, Nancy, it's fentanyl fentyl. Yeah, 50 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 3: and in this particular case, his drink. 51 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: You're right about that. You're right about that, professor. 52 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 3: It was it was laced with fentanyl, which you know 53 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 3: is an absolute scourge on our country. 54 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: Can I tell you something before you get on the scourge? Yeah, 55 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: it's evil genius what she did right there, even though she. 56 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: Of course got caught. 57 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: But nobody is going to taste grind up fentanyl when 58 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: it's mixed in with ginger beer. It's yeah, ginger, I 59 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 1: guess it's ginger beer and vodka and line, you're not 60 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: gonna taste it. 61 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 3: No, it's gonna be easily masked. And for those that 62 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 3: don't know, you know, fentanyl is it falls into the 63 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 3: opiate family. Which you know, you begin to think of 64 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 3: things like morphine and heroine and all of that. 65 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: But I think of Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz. Yeah, 66 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: skipping across the big field of poppies from which you 67 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: make opiate's heroin and they all fall asleep. 68 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then they're awakened by snow, which is another 69 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 3: interesting aspect, but we won't go down that road. 70 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 2: But with I think I already did. 71 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 3: But go ahead with this particular case though, you begin 72 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 3: to think about, you know, how do you get access 73 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 3: to this, well, fentanyl is it's just it's like a 74 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 3: massive infection in our country. It's you can come across it. 75 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 3: It's you know, it's been used as as pain rely 76 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 3: for years and years, but it's it's a synthetic substance. 77 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 3: It's it's created in a laboratory, and it's obviously lethal. 78 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 3: I'm sorry. Yes, yes, similar in the same fashion, in 79 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 3: the same fashion, But. 80 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 2: Is not actually fentanyl, right. 81 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 3: No, it's not. But it falls within the same the 82 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 3: same family of opiates, if you will, so the base 83 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 3: at a base elemental level, it's going to have many 84 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 3: of the same effects. And we we all know, you 85 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 3: know what an overdose, say for instance, of heroin or 86 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 3: morphine can do where it begins to suppress system. People 87 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 3: can go into a Komoto state, and it's all dependent 88 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 3: upon how much of this that they're exposed to in 89 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 3: their system, and it can kill you. It can send 90 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 3: you into cardiac arrest. 91 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: Because everything goes to sleep, including your brain and your 92 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: lungs and your heart. 93 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, it does. It's a particularly nasty way to die. 94 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 3: From this perspective is that what happens is that the 95 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 3: mechanism here, it leads to a congestive failure and the 96 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 3: lungs get very, very heavy. You have to struggle, you 97 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 3: mean full of fluid, full of fluid. Many times we'll 98 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 3: actually see in cases involving Od's you'll actually begin to 99 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 3: see a similar finding to what you have in drownings. 100 00:06:54,680 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace od on fentanyl. How does 101 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: that make your lungs heavy? What do you mean by 102 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: heavy lungs? I've never heard that before. 103 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's a congestive failure where your lungs are 104 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 3: beginning to fill up with fluid as a result of 105 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 3: not being able to produce or to actually reap or 106 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 3: breathe to circulate oxygen through your body, so they progressively 107 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 3: become more and more heavy. As a matter of fact, 108 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 3: at autopsy, you know, we. 109 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: I was just going to ask you, what do the 110 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: lungs look like at autopsy? 111 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 3: Well, when you touch them, they're they're very tense, heavy, 112 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 3: you can tell that they're congested. When we take them out, 113 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 3: they're going to weigh they're going to weigh, in some circumstances, 114 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 3: almost twice their normal their normal weight. So you figure 115 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 3: if a normal male's lung adult male is say four 116 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 3: hundred and fifty grams, that's on the right lung, which 117 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 3: of course is the is the heaviest because it has 118 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 3: three lows. 119 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: Wait, can you increase increase. 120 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 3: That number by two? Well, grams, that's that's that's the 121 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 3: weight that we measure it in as opposed. 122 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: I know, but can you can you convert that to ounces? 123 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: Pounds? 124 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: Not off the top of Oh, dear lord, did you 125 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: say four hundred and fifty grams? Yeah, four hundred and 126 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: fifty How many pounds? How many ounces? It's four hundred 127 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: and fifty grams. Can believe you four hundred and fifty 128 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 1: grams is equal to thirty five point twenty seven ounces. Wait, yes, 129 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: something like that, just under a pound, just under a pound. 130 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know there's sixteen what's sixteen ounces and 131 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 3: a pound? I think, yes, Yeah, it's they're very very heavy. Well, 132 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 3: multiply that by two and you'll get the So it 133 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 3: increases by that factor. So essentially you have an individual 134 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 3: that is compromise their airways compromise. It's almost like a drowning, 135 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 3: if you will. And guess what happens many times with 136 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 3: these individuals. You'll see this kind of frothy, ademitous cone. 137 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 3: It's pink. It looks like the head of a beer, 138 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 3: only it's pink. And it'll begin to produce. Out of 139 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 3: the nose and out of the mouth. 140 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: You exhale pink froth, which is the fluid from the 141 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: lungs mixed with blood particles. 142 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, it'll be tinged with blood and that's that's what 143 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 3: gives it that kind of pink here. 144 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: So let me cut through the heavy lungs and the 145 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 1: frothy blood. 146 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 2: At the nose and mouth, because you know what that you, you. 147 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, are why we need death investigators and medical 148 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: exam or medical examers just take the stand because a 149 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: lot of people when they hear this what happened to 150 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: Eric Richards. They went, oh, she put fentanyl in his 151 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: moscow mule and he just went to sleep and never 152 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: woke up. 153 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 2: That's not what happened. 154 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: You basically have internal drowning and you're trying to breathe 155 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: and the bloody froth's coming out of your nose in 156 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: your mouth, and that's what happens. 157 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 3: Yes, it's an absolutely horrific death, Nancy. And he would 158 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 3: have felt the self slipping away, you know, this kind 159 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 3: of uncontrollable dizziness. There would have been disorientation and all along, 160 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 3: and you don't know what his level of awareness would 161 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 3: have been. It would have been slipping away, but there 162 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 3: would have been real strugglings as he was there and 163 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 3: you were witnessing this, Nancy. In from her perspective, she 164 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 3: could have seen him, her own husband, by the way, 165 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 3: struggling to take up air, to intake air in order 166 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 3: for it to process, and his blood his brain is 167 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 3: actually screaming out, I need oxygen, I need oxygen, and 168 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 3: there was nothing, nothing there for him to uptake at 169 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 3: that point in top and the drug itself is pressing 170 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 3: him deeper and deeper and deeper into this Komato State 171 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 3: till eventually, eventually he's going to go into cardio respiporia REPS. 172 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: You know, Joe Scott, I why did I have to 173 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: have some type of a minor surgery? Anyway, they put 174 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: me under, and the last thing I thought about I 175 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: visualized John, David, my son, Lucy, my daughter, David, my husband, 176 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: and then everything went black, and I'm just thinking about 177 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: his last Moment's the victim here? Because you know what, 178 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: Joe Scott and I am guilty of this. You know, 179 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: you and I have done it together. We deal with 180 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: death and murder and the most horrific acts that people 181 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: commit on each other. And it's heavy to carry around. 182 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: So sometimes we laugh, laugh about stupid criminals like you 183 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: murder your husband and then you go on TV to 184 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: sell your children's grief book talking about how much you're 185 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: grieving about the husband that you. 186 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: Killed, the irony of that. 187 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: You know, when criminals leave a trail a mile why 188 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: we can sit back and ha ha. 189 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 2: But when you. 190 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:59,359 Speaker 1: Describe what this victim went through, and I just wonder if. 191 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 2: His last thoughts were about. 192 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: His little children, Carter, Ashton and Weston, three very little 193 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: boys that let's just be brutally honest to Scott. 194 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: You got one that's five. 195 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: By the time he's twenty one, he probably won't even 196 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: remember very much about Daddy at all. He's gonna end 197 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: up being raised by relatives or someone that adopts them. 198 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: I wonder if those were the last thoughts that Eric 199 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: Richand's had. And I wanna talk to you now, not 200 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: necessarily know more about the cod and what he endured, 201 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: but about the trail, the electronic trail, and the evidentiary 202 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 1: trail that this woman left behind. Okay, and I want 203 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: to start with something I really love. Of course, there's 204 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: text messages. There's her buying nine hundred dollars worth of 205 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: fentanyl before Valentine's Day, where he had another similar incident. 206 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: He had food and beverage with his wife and then 207 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: he had a horrible allergic reaction and had to use 208 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: benadera and an EpiPen and he somehow miraculously lived. So, 209 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: based on text message, she goes back to the doper 210 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: who happens to be a CI confidential informant and says, hey, 211 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: I need another nine hundred bucks of fentanyl. Give me 212 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: the Michael Jackson stuff. That time, right after she buys 213 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: more fentanyl. He dies a fentanyl overdose, and they're Mormon. 214 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: My Mormon friends do not even drink chocolate milk because 215 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:59,359 Speaker 1: they think it's a stimulant, which it is much less fentanyl. 216 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: This guy was not on fentanyl, and he had five 217 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: times a lethal dosage of fentanyl in his system. But 218 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: there's the text messages back and forth to the CI 219 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: timed during his last two leading up to his last 220 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: two murder attempts on his life, her last two murder 221 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: attempts on his life. 222 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: There was also a third. 223 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: Attempt when they went to Greece and he's with her 224 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: again and he has a horrible medical reaction after having 225 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: food and beverage with her, and he actually calls his 226 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: sister in the States and has the sister changed. 227 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 2: His will. He changed his will. Now we know. 228 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: That he also had his life insurance policy changed because 229 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: his wife, expecting the three point six million dollars after 230 00:15:55,120 --> 00:16:00,040 Speaker 1: his death, had changed the life insurance policy beneficiary to 231 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: her and not his business partner. He found out and 232 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: fixed that so she didn't get that time stories with 233 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. So there's three attempts on his life. I 234 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: want to talk about the text messages and specifically her 235 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: phone she talked too much. She told cops the night 236 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: of the death of her husband that her phone had 237 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: been plugged up in their bedroom and she had not 238 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: been using it. But then, as you know Joe Scott, 239 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: her phone reveals it was locked and unlocked several times 240 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: where she was texting, and then those texts were deleted. 241 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 2: Let's start with that. 242 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: The locking and the unlicking kind of reminds me of 243 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: the Alex murder case, where this was awesome where the 244 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: car manufacturer can tell the state everything the car did, 245 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: where it was traveling, how quickly it was traveling, the mph, 246 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: and the opening and the shutting of doors of his 247 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: Alex Mornaux car, which shows he was lying. 248 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: Let's talk about her phone locking unlocking. 249 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, you think about how how the thing operates. It's curious, 250 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 3: isn't it, Nancy, Because many times people will say, you 251 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 3: know what we're when they're talking about the criminal cases, 252 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 3: they'll say, we're not tracking the person, we're tracking the phone. Okay, 253 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 3: that I'll give you that. You know, they could say 254 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 3: the phone is moving in a car, somebody's placed in 255 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 3: a car. You don't know if the person we're talking 256 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 3: about her being in a phone though, we're talking about 257 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 3: her being at home inside of their domicile and the 258 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 3: house being and the phone being unlocked there. So unless 259 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 3: the phone, you know, has developed a life of its own, 260 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 3: you can or you can make note of these little 261 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 3: electronic breadcrumbs that are you know, that are filling in 262 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 3: the blanks for this, you know, when she's trying to 263 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 3: alibi herself in this particular case, perhaps you can state 264 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 3: that definitively, and that's some alibi. 265 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: It reminds me I've caught mom Laurie Valo. Oh yeah, 266 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: when JJ was taken and murdered. I was, I wasn't there. 267 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: She was three doors down in her apartment. Stop and 268 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: here she say her alibi Corey Richins is saying her 269 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: alibi was she went and slept with her son that 270 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: night up until three am, comes back in and finds 271 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: her husband cold to the touch. Her alibi she's like 272 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: eight feet down the hall. 273 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 2: Really yep. 274 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, And in this case, in this case, she claimed that, 275 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 3: you know, like you had said, that the phone was 276 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 3: plugged in, that it was in a static position, that 277 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 3: it wasn't moving. That's not what investigators uncovered here this 278 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 3: phone moved. It actually moved. She said that she never 279 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 3: took the phone into the kid's room. Well, they were 280 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 3: nancy in this particular case to give a specific pinpoint 281 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 3: location that the phone was active in the kids rooms 282 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 3: when she said that she hadn't touched the damn thing. 283 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 3: But the case is the fact. The fact is she's 284 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 3: moving around, and you know what that leads to. I mean, 285 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 3: you're you're from prosecutor. I mean, somebody's lying. You're not 286 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 3: telling us the truth. And so with that bit of 287 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 3: information in hand, they know that they've got somebody that's 288 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 3: you know, that's that's a deceptive. 289 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: She remember, Josica, I think I've told you this before. 290 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: After my fiancee Keith was murdered shortly before our wedding, 291 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: I couldn't even think straight. I really actually just wanted 292 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: to go outside and howl like an animal. I didn't 293 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: want to see anybody. I didn't want to talk to anybody. 294 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 1: I dropped out of school. 295 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 2: I couldn't think straight. 296 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: And she has the wherewithal Her husband is lying dead 297 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 1: on the floor, and she's lying about our phone. That 298 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: takes nerves of steel and a lot of calculation. 299 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly does. It also takes a lot. It certainly 300 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 3: takes a certain level of boldness to write a book 301 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 3: about grief in the wake of what police are a 302 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 3: legend is a murder on her part. And you think 303 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 3: about that just for a second. Let that sink in. 304 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 3: You know, you and I have both grieved, you know, 305 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 3: we We've talked about it publicly. I've lost a child, 306 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 3: uh with with the death of Keith. For you, we 307 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 3: understand that pain, you know that you experienced during that 308 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 3: period of time. And how how is it that that 309 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 3: this can be so systematically planned out and she's got 310 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 3: you know, you mentioned she's got these babies, and they're 311 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 3: babies to me. I mean, these these these beautiful children 312 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 3: that she has that are now fatherless. How is it 313 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 3: that you can be thinking in these specific terms where 314 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 3: you're attempting to deceive, deceive in order to achieve a 315 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 3: long term goal, and you're not placing the appropriate amount 316 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 3: of grief, You're not going through the process that you 317 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 3: have to go through to get on with your life. 318 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 3: She was getting on with her life, all right, and 319 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 3: it seems like it's been well planned out on her part. 320 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 3: This is one of the most callous things I've heard about, and. 321 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: So far we haven't heard about a boyfriend or a lover. 322 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: We've heard a lot about money changing the life insurance 323 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: policy so she would get the three point six million, 324 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: and he found out, the victim found out and changed 325 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: it back. I want to point out one more thing. 326 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: Not only will her phone show that it was locked 327 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,360 Speaker 1: and unlocked multiple times where she said it was plugged 328 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,959 Speaker 1: in and or off in the husband in her bedroom, 329 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: so she was using it. Text messages back and forth 330 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: during that time period were deleted. I look down, Joe 331 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: Scott while you were talking to see I have three 332 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty seven unread emails. Repeat three thousand, 333 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty seven emails. 334 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 2: Okay, I'd be to talk to you about that, nimes. 335 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: Not People say didn't you get my email? And won't 336 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: totally no, And so she takes time to delete texts 337 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: while her husband is lying there with red pink broth 338 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: coming out of his mouth and nose. 339 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 2: And who do you? I wonder who's she texting? Because 340 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 2: we're gonna find out. 341 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: You can bet your bottom dollar on that she was 342 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: dub enough to text her CI confident informant doper, so 343 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: I can't wait to find out who she's texting. 344 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 2: So the phone can tell. 345 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: Us locked unlocked, multiple times, texts back and forth during 346 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: this period of time while her husband is dying with 347 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: his lungs so heavy, he's like breathing out asperating bloody 348 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: phae and movement. 349 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 2: Can we tell if the phone was moved about the house? 350 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 3: According to the authorities? They can you know? Because she actually, 351 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 3: you know, she had stated, I don't know if they 352 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 3: asked her this directly, but somehow they determined that that 353 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 3: phone was not again in one single place that that 354 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 3: phone during the period of time was She alleges that 355 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 3: it was that it was locked down, that it was charging, 356 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 3: or whatever circumstance there was, that phone somehow migrated to 357 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 3: the children's bedroom where it was unlocked. What what are 358 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 3: you doing in the children's bedroom at this point in time, 359 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 3: She claims that she's found her husband lying on the 360 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 3: floor and he's cold to the touch. Well, when was 361 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 3: the last time you actually saw your husband, ma'am. If 362 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 3: you're saying that this is some kind of natural event 363 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 3: that has occurred, he's lying on the bedroom floor cold. 364 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,239 Speaker 3: So if that's the case, are you moving back and 365 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 3: forth across his body while you're toting his phone back 366 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 3: and forth. It's supposed to be static, and it's being open. 367 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 3: And by the way, you're probably the only person that 368 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 3: knows how to unlock it because you know the code. 369 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 3: We all have a security code for it. So you 370 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 3: show that it's unlocked. You're going down the hallway, you're 371 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 3: in the kids room. What was she doing? She's contemplating 372 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 3: as she's walking up and down the hallway, trying to 373 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 3: determine what the next move is, because now at this 374 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 3: point she probably has some kind of awareness that, you 375 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 3: know what, I've just facilitated the death of the man 376 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 3: that I'm married to. Who are they going to look at? 377 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 3: They always look at the spouse. But for some reason, 378 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 3: she just she didn't necessarily panic. I would certainly be 379 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 3: in a state of panic. 380 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 2: Joe Scott, do you know that they had a prenup. 381 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: They had a prenup that was signed on the day 382 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: of their wedding, and he Eric Richins was worth more 383 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: to her, Corey Richards dead than alive. Can I ask 384 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: you something else that happened? Factually, she told cops that 385 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: she performed CPR on her husband. I find that very 386 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: difficult to believe. If pink, bloody froth was still coming 387 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: out or had come out of his nose and mouth 388 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: and it was still on him in that fashion when 389 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: first responders got there, what does that tell you that 390 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: it's still there? 391 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 3: This is what can happen. I'm just giving you a 392 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 3: scientific facts here. If he is presenting with this pink 393 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 3: frothy cone, this can be exacerbated. It can, and this 394 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 3: is what would probably argued, this can be exacerbated by 395 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 3: chess compressions. I think the key here though, is, you know, 396 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 3: the first responding officers, the EMTs, when they're talking to her, 397 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 3: if she's done mouth mouth, if she's done chest compressions 398 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 3: on him, I think the question or that I would 399 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 3: ask them, what did you observe on her person? Was 400 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 3: there anything on her that's some kind of contact that 401 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 3: had leached back onto her, say, for instance, because it 402 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 3: would stain the mouth if she did mouth to mouth, 403 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 3: it would be on her potentially on her hands that 404 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 3: she's trying to open the airway. You know, that's how 405 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 3: we do CPR. You got to clear the airway, you 406 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 3: got to open it up. But I'd like to know 407 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 3: to what extent this cone was presenting, if in fact 408 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 3: it did, which is normal in these circumstances when you 409 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 3: have a fentanyl OD. 410 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: So you're telling me that when the cops got in 411 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: there and they say he still has the bloody foam 412 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: coming out of his mouth and nose, you think it 413 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: was possible she had performed CPR on him. 414 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 3: I'm not saying that it's possible she performed CPR. But 415 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 3: what can happen, though, is if you are in this 416 00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 3: status after you've odeed or been odeed on fentanyl, will 417 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 3: continue People don't believe this, but I've actually seen it happen. 418 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 3: It will continue to present and actually come out of 419 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 3: the body for a protracted period of time. It's going 420 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 3: to be further exacerbated by the fact that you're doing 421 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 3: chest compressions, you know, so you're compressing the lungs, You're 422 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 3: pushing more and more out all the while. 423 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: So she could have performed CPR and then the phone 424 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: continued to come out of his nose and mouth. If 425 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: you're doing mouth to mouth on somebody, how would that work? 426 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 3: Well? You would you there would be a sensation that 427 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 3: this is traveling. You know, you're you're actually sharing this 428 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 3: with the body. It would go back into her mouth, 429 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 3: it would be on her face, there would be a 430 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 3: ring around her face perhaps, but you know, you don't 431 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 3: know if she took time to clean up, if she 432 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 3: and it did in fact attempts CPR. 433 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,199 Speaker 1: So we need to know her presentation, how she presented 434 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 1: when cops got there, what she looked like in regular talk, 435 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: what she looked like. 436 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, and you you want to know. And one 437 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 3: of the things that we also look like is are 438 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 3: one of the things we also look for in individuals 439 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 3: that are the reporters of death, those that discover the dead, 440 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 3: is are they presenting with an appropriate amount of grief? 441 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 3: Are they you know, are they in hysterical state. I've 442 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 3: seen people go catatonic, you know, where you can't get 443 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 3: any information out of them. But then you got those 444 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 3: that just kind of hit that kind of flat plane 445 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 3: where they're just kind of talking to you. Is if oham, 446 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 3: it's another day. 447 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: Five times the amount of a deadly dosage of fentanyl 448 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: in his system and prophetic words telling his sister she 449 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: might just kill me for the money, we wait as 450 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: just as unfalls. 451 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 2: Scott, You're awesome. Thank you for being with us.