1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb. 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormack, and we're back with Part three 5 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 3: of our series on cicadas. Now, if you haven't heard 6 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 3: the first two parts yet, you probably want to go 7 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 3: check those out first. This is one where we lay 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 3: a lot of the groundwork in the earlier episodes. This 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 3: series was a little strange because we broke right in 10 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 3: the middle of it after part one for a break 11 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 3: that we had for a couple of weeks, came back 12 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 3: last week with Part two, and here we are with 13 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 3: Part three. 14 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 2: Now. 15 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 3: In Part one, we talked about the basics of cicada biology, 16 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 3: their branch of the insect family tree, their life cycle, reproduction, 17 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 3: the sounds they make, their bodies and organs, and the 18 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 3: evolution of long underground developmental periods and timed emergences in 19 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 3: the minority of SCA, a species known as periodical cicadas, 20 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 3: which we have here in North America. We just had 21 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 3: a very interesting and rare kind of coinciding emergence of 22 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 3: two relevant broods of thirteen and seventeen year cicadas this 23 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 3: year in twenty twenty four. The last time this coinciding 24 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 3: emergence happened was like two hundred and twenty one years ago, 25 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 3: so that's pretty cool. In part two of the series, 26 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 3: we talked about the history of people being concerned with 27 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 3: the question of whether periodical cicadas will bite them or 28 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 3: sting them, or stuck out all their blood and leave 29 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 3: them a thoroughly pumped frame. In the words of one 30 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,199 Speaker 3: New York Times article from the nineteenth century, they won't 31 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 3: do that. Don't worry, it's not going to happen. And 32 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 3: then we talked about the work of the American entomologist 33 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 3: Charles Lester Marlott, who did important research mapping and cataloging 34 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 3: the different broods of periodical cicadas in eastern North America. 35 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 3: And today we're back to talk about more cicada stuff 36 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 3: right now. 37 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: Later on in this episode, we are going to be 38 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 2: talking about a rather unique and by many standards, gnarly 39 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 2: parasite of periodical cicadas, one that you may already be 40 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: familiar with, even if it's like just surface level, because 41 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: it's a rather outrageous example that sometimes breaks the surface 42 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 2: of even late night coverage of science news. But before 43 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: we're going to do that, we have a little cicada mythology, 44 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,119 Speaker 2: a little general cicada history to jump into here, right right. 45 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 3: So I came across an interesting fact, which is that 46 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 3: cicadas are featured in one of Plato's dialogues, one that 47 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 3: I've read before, and I had no memory of this 48 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 3: being a part of the discussion at all. And this 49 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 3: dialogue includes a mythological origin story for cicadas. So the 50 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 3: dialogue in question is Plato's dialogue The Feedress, and it's 51 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 3: a story told by Socrates. So Fedris is a very 52 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 3: famous dialogue of Plato. A lot of people read it 53 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 3: in school. It covers a wide range of topics art, love, madness, reason, rhetoric, etc. 54 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 3: It's the source of that famous chariot analogy where Socrates 55 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 3: describes the soul as a chariot pulled by two horses 56 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 3: with very different temperaments, each representing different forms of passion 57 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 3: and instinct within human nature. And then the charioteer is 58 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 3: sort of the reasoning part of the soul that must 59 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 3: tame the two horses and steer them together on the 60 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 3: path of truth and righteousness. Even though they want to 61 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 3: go in different directions on their own. But anyway, the 62 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 3: story of the cicadas is not part of the Chariot analogy. 63 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 3: It comes partially due to the setting of the dialogue. 64 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 3: So in this dialogue, Socrates and this other guy, Feedris 65 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 3: are outside the city of Athens, and it is said 66 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 3: that they're sitting on the banks of a stream having 67 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 3: a good old philosophical conversation, and in the background cicadas 68 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 3: are singing. They make reference to this a couple of 69 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 3: times in the dialogue, and then Socrates starts imagining that 70 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 3: if he and Fedris were not doing what they're doing, 71 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 3: not having a philosophical conversation, but we're instead just lying 72 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,679 Speaker 3: by the river listening to the cicada song, he says 73 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 3: that the cicadas would have a right to laugh at 74 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 3: them for being lazy and unvirtuous. But since the cicadas 75 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 3: know that Socrates and Fedris are instead discoursing on philosophy, 76 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 3: trying to get to the truth, and not being just 77 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 3: lulled to sleep by their song, he says quote, they 78 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 3: may perhaps, out of respect, give us of the gifts 79 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 3: which they receive from the gods, that they may impart 80 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 3: them to men, And then Fedris says, what gifts are 81 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 3: you talking about? What gifts to cicadas have to give 82 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 3: two men from the gods? And here I'm going to 83 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 3: read socrates response. This is the Benjamin Joet translation orig 84 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 3: generally renders the name of the insect here as grasshoppers. 85 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 3: But it seems to me generally agreed that this story 86 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 3: is referring to cicadas. So I've gone through the passage 87 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 3: and replace the word grasshopper with cicada. Excellent, Socrates says, 88 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 3: A lover of music like yourself ought surely to have 89 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 3: heard the story of the cicadas, who are said to 90 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 3: have been human beings in an age before the muses. 91 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 3: And when the muses came and song appeared, they were 92 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 3: ravished with delight and singing, always never thought of eating 93 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 3: and drinking, until at last, in their forgetfulness, they died. 94 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 3: And now they live again in the cicadas. And this 95 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 3: is the return which the Muses make to them. They 96 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 3: neither hunger nor thirst, but from the hour of their 97 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 3: birth are always singing and never eating or drinking. And 98 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 3: when they die, they go and inform the Muses in heaven, 99 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 3: who honors them on earth. They win the love of 100 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 3: terpsickery for the dancers by their report of them, of 101 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 3: Erato by the lovers, and of the other muses, for 102 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 3: those who do them honor according to the several ways 103 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 3: of honoring them, of Calliope, the eldest muse, and of Urania, 104 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 3: who is next to her, for the philosophers, of whose 105 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 3: music the cicadas make report to them. For these are 106 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 3: the muses who are chiefly concerned with heaven and thought 107 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 3: divine as well as human, and they have the sweetest 108 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 3: utterance for many reasons. Then we ought always to talk 109 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 3: and not to sleep at mid day. So cicadas, according 110 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 3: to this story, were humans before the time the muses 111 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 3: came into being. And when the muses came to exist, 112 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 3: they brought with them music. They brought song, and then 113 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 3: the pre muse humans were so enraptured by the invention 114 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 3: of music that they entertained themselves to death. They listened 115 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 3: to music without eating or drinking until they just died. 116 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 3: And I guess made me to made music. Listen to music, 117 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 3: it's all song and dance, until they just straight up died. 118 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 2: This is why you have concessions. 119 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right, Yeah, but then but then the muses 120 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 3: allow them to live again as cicadas and to sort 121 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 3: of to be snitches for the muses, you know, to 122 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 3: be the muse's earthly surveillance team, to kind of like 123 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 3: hang out down here and spy on people and see 124 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 3: who's honoring the muses properly and who is not honoring them. 125 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 3: And I was thinking about this and how it seems 126 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 3: like it's kind of interesting to me to see how 127 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 3: norms of moral and intellectual virtue are kind of different 128 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 3: in our culture versus what Socrates is proposing here, because 129 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 3: it seems like Socrates is talking like it's just rather 130 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 3: obvious that sitting silently in nature, maybe falling asleep by 131 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 3: a river, listening to the insects vocalized, is something akin 132 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 3: to a vice. At the very least. It's like intellectually 133 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 3: lazy and not worthy behavior in the view of the 134 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 3: intellectual muses like Calliope and Urania, who are muses of 135 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 3: things like philosophy and eloquence and astronomy and stuff, you know, 136 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 3: the muses of learning. And it's thought that these muses 137 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 3: would certainly see it as better for people to be 138 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 3: engaged in philosophical argumentation. And this is to the extent 139 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 3: that in the comment right before this selection, when Socrates 140 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 3: is talking about, like, you know, he's first talking about 141 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 3: the cicadas looking at them and judging what they're doing. 142 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 3: Socrates says, quote, but if they see us discoursing like Odysseus, 143 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 3: sailing past them, deaf to their siren voices, they may, perhaps, 144 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 3: out of respect, give us of the gifts which they 145 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 3: receive from the gods, that they may impart them to 146 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 3: men okes. I read the last part of that. 147 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, So the cicadas are singing, they're busy, 148 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 2: enraptured by song, and if we're not living our lives 149 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 2: to like full creative musical extent that we could, then 150 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 2: they are going to shame us, and they're going to 151 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:11,479 Speaker 2: laugh at us. But if we're busy talking, having philosophical discussions, 152 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,719 Speaker 2: then they might just give us a little gift here 153 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 2: and there. 154 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 3: Right, they'll go tell the muses that we've been good. 155 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll get a boon, Okay, okay. 156 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 3: But it's interesting that kind of difference in expectations because 157 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 3: I think among I don't know, probably a lot of 158 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 3: people sitting listening to this podcast right now, a lot 159 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 3: of us today, I think probably think that sitting quietly 160 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 3: in nature and listening to the bugs, sitting by a river, 161 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 3: maybe dozing off is an activity that would be more 162 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 3: associated with like virtue and seriousness and discipline and so forth, 163 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 3: things like that today, And I don't think that would 164 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 3: be widely seen as like a less intellectually serious type 165 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 3: of activity than arguing about the nature of reality and 166 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 3: a philosophical discourse. It seems like, you know, every yahoo 167 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 3: an out there wants to argue about what's true. You know. 168 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can imagine like Socrates busting into my new 169 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 2: yoga class that I go to and saying, why aren't 170 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: you talking about philosophy? What are you doing laying about 171 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 2: doing stretches, being in the now? Stop it? 172 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 3: So, I don't know, maybe our norms today extend from 173 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 3: the idea that like, there are access to easier entertainments 174 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 3: than like listening to the cicadas or something, and so 175 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 3: if you're like really intellectually lazy, you're like watching TV 176 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 3: or something instead of, maybe to the ancient Greek sitting 177 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 3: and listening to the cicadas and dozing off by the river. 178 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 3: That's the equivalent of watching TV or something. 179 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: I don't know, Yeah, I mean it also sounds like 180 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 2: he's kind of shaming folks for being inactive and resting 181 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 2: a little bit during like the hottest part of the day, 182 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: you know. So I don't know, but I think you're right. Yeah, 183 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: this does kind of turn a lot of our modern 184 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 2: ideals and aspirations about everything from I mean really everything 185 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 2: from midday rest and you know the idea of taking 186 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 2: the siesta to doing like a mid day exercise, mid 187 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 2: day yoga, meditation, or even just a mid afternoon nap. Yeah. 188 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 3: But I also like the idea that this mythology of 189 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 3: cicada origins incorporates a couple of things. I mean, one 190 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 3: is the interesting, like you know, the entertain themselves to 191 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 3: death concept. It's not unique like that. There are other 192 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 3: stories of similar kind of people who get so excited 193 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 3: by some kind of activity that they forget to live. 194 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 3: And so there's that aspect. But also I like the 195 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 3: idea of cicadas as surveillance devices, that they are down 196 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 3: here spying on us for the gods, because it can 197 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 3: sort of feel like that, right, like the way that 198 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 3: you go into their space and you can't see them, 199 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 3: but you imagine they can see you. It often feels 200 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 3: this way with various kinds of bugs that make sounds 201 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 3: in the night, whether it's cicadas or not, because you 202 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 3: might have that experience of, say, going into the woods 203 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 3: at night and there bugs making sound, But then the 204 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 3: bugs get quiet, so you realize they're aware of your 205 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 3: presence and reacting to it, but you can't see any 206 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 3: of them. So it does feel like a kind of 207 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 3: surveillance situation. 208 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you're literally bugged right, Oh yeah, yeah, And 209 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: there is like we've been discussing with the cicadas like that, 210 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 2: just that feel of them in their masses, like the 211 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 2: rise and fall of their cadence. It it does have 212 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 2: this very surreal feel to it. It feels like, like 213 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: I say, I often think about it as just being 214 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 2: like part of the midday heat. You know. It's it's 215 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: something that's difficult for the human mind to sort of 216 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 2: fathom as what it is, like, all these individual cicadas 217 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: making little sounds. It feels like something much bigger than 218 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 2: us in many ways. 219 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, almost like the gods are in on it. Yeah. 220 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 3: But if there are some aspects of cicada biology that 221 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 3: might make them feel like an envoy of the muses 222 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 3: or some kind of you know, allied with the heavens. 223 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 3: There are other ways in which you can learn things 224 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 3: about cicadas that really make them like they were cursed 225 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 3: by the devils, like if Hades has it out for them, Yeah. 226 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, cursed by the gods or you know, who 227 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 2: are we to question the strange creations the lonely perfection 228 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 2: of the gods. I want to talk a bit about 229 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: one very notable parasite of cicadas in general, but there's 230 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: a lot of emphasis on the varieties that target are 231 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 2: periodical cicadas. So we've already discussed the unique life cycle 232 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: of the periodical cicadas and some of the ideas concerning 233 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: why they spend thirteen or seventeen years underground in this 234 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 2: low metabolism subterranean larval form and then eventually erupt and 235 00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: engage in this noisy litter, producing a feast for predators 236 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: but also very vital reproductive cycle of their lives. And 237 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 2: one of those one of the ideas behind this is 238 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 2: that they do this in order to outmaneuver various predators 239 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 2: and parasites that otherwise might sync up with their life cycle. 240 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: Now We've already admitted though that this may seem to 241 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 2: work in some cases, but periodical cicadas have not been 242 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: able to outmaneuver everything. And of course we also discussed 243 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: how like, basically the idea of everyone emerging at once 244 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 2: and reproducing also is to just overwhelm predators. They can't 245 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: possibly eat everything, and any given species are going to 246 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 2: live in some degree of equilibrium with its parasites, with 247 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 2: its predators and so forth. 248 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 3: This actually would be a good place to mention something 249 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 3: interesting I came across in research since the last episode, 250 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 3: which is I was looking for more information about the 251 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 3: actual direct evidence for predator saciation in periodicals, and again, 252 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 3: satiation is the evolutionary strategy we've been talking about. It's 253 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 3: one hypothesized reason for these mass periodical emergencies, where the 254 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 3: idea is, again there are more cicadas than all the 255 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 3: predators that eat them can possibly eat all at the 256 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 3: same time, So the eating capacity of the predators and 257 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 3: also the parasitizing capacity of the parasitoids is overwhelmed. There's 258 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 3: too much all at once, and thus each individual cicada's 259 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 3: chances of suffering from predation are much lower. So I 260 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 3: was like, well, what is the actual evidence for predator saciation, 261 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 3: and so I found an interesting study. It was won 262 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 3: by Richard Carbond done in the journal Ecology in nineteen 263 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 3: eighty two called Increased reproductive success at high densities and 264 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 3: predator satiation for periodical Cicadas. In the study, the researchers 265 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:57,239 Speaker 3: combed over selected areas during periodical cicada emergencies and collected 266 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 3: cicada wings, which was an interesting strategy. Basically, they were 267 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 3: trying to look at bird predation on cicadas and they 268 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 3: discovered that wings are often discarded when birds eat cicadas, 269 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 3: so bird chomps the cicada, the wings fall off, and 270 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 3: so they collected wings in these areas to allow the 271 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 3: researchers to form rough estimates of how many cicadas are 272 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 3: eaten by birds within the area at a given time period. 273 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 3: And what the author here found was interesting. The number 274 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 3: of wings increased its sites with more bird density, so 275 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 3: cram more predators into a region, more cicadas get eaten, 276 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 3: but the number of wings did not increase at sites 277 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 3: with more cicada density, so more things to eat doesn't matter. 278 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 3: Nothing more gets eaten. In other words, if you put 279 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 3: more cicadas in the area, and the bird population remains 280 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 3: the same. No additional cicadas get eaten by birds, because 281 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 3: the birds are already eating their fill. There's already more 282 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 3: than they possibly can get to, and thus each end 283 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 3: of jual cicada's chance of being eaten goes down. That's 284 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 3: the predator satiation scenario. The predators are full. But of 285 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 3: course the real danger in the bird predation scenario would 286 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 3: be if the birds caught on to this in some 287 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,479 Speaker 3: way and increased their numbers to take advantage of this 288 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 3: massive amount of leftovers. Maybe if they had more offspring 289 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 3: and increase their population density at the time when cicadas 290 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 3: were available, or if more birds migrated to the area 291 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 3: at the time when cicadas were available, or something like that. 292 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 3: So if the number of predators goes up, the safety 293 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 3: advantage for cicadas goes down. And this is another reason 294 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 3: that it's hypothesized that the thirteen or seventeen year period 295 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 3: is helpful. The ideas this makes it harder to track with, 296 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 3: like the predators can't sync up their migration or reproductive 297 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 3: or whatever cycles to be in the right place at 298 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 3: the right time to take advantage of all the cicada biomass. 299 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 3: So sorry for the digression, but I had discarded cicada 300 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 3: wings on the brain, So that'll bring us back to 301 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 3: you were saying that the cicadas are not able to 302 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 3: outmaneuver everything, and there's one organism in particular that is 303 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 3: a parasite that has adapted to periodical cicadas. 304 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 2: That's right. This organism is Masospora cicadia. And this is 305 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: a fungal pathogen that was discovered by American mycologist and 306 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 2: botanist Charles Horton Peck back in eighteen seventy nine, who 307 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 2: is a pretty important figure in North American mycology around 308 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: the turn of the twentieth century. I think like thousands 309 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: of different species of fungus were described by him, North 310 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,959 Speaker 2: American fungo, fung gui and he was also the New 311 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 2: York State Botanist from eighteen sixty seven through nineteen fifteen. 312 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 2: So I went back and I was reading Peck's original 313 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 2: report on the fungus in question, back in eighteen seventy 314 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 2: nine's thirty first Annual report on the New York State 315 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: Museum of Natural History by the Regions of the University 316 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 2: of the state of New York. 317 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 3: What state was that in? 318 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 2: Well, New York, of course. But the paper is quite readable, 319 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 2: and it describes most of the key features of the 320 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: parasitic infection of periodical cicadas, and does so redis succinctly. 321 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 2: So I'm going to read a passage from it here. 322 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 2: But basically he starts off by mentioning that fungal parasites 323 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 2: of insects are known and are quite common. So this was, 324 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 2: in and of itself nothing new. And certainly, if you 325 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 2: pay any attention to science news, you have run across 326 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 2: various examples of those various fungal parasites that depend on insects, 327 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 2: and in many cases, like you don't seem to alter 328 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:48,479 Speaker 2: their biology and or behavior. You know, puppet masters if 329 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 2: you will. 330 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, we've done episodes in the past about Ohiocordyceps fungus 331 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 3: specifically praying on insects, and I don't know if this 332 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 3: has overlapped with that or not, but. 333 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 2: There are some I think it it lines up in 334 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: places though there are some mysteries that remain, and I 335 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: think there's still you know, there's still certain mysteries that 336 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 2: remain with with other examples of fungal parasites. We're still 337 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 2: learning a lot. There's still some things that are more 338 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 2: in the realm of hypothesis that sometimes maybe get picked 339 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 2: up and carried into the mainstream press a little more 340 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 2: settled than they actually are. We're still learning a lot. 341 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 2: At the time of this writing, though, this was a 342 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 2: new one and it was based on some specimens that 343 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 2: had been sent to Peck from New Jersey. So in 344 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 2: this text he writes, the fungus develops itself in the 345 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 2: abdomen of the insect and consists almost wholly of a 346 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 2: mass of pale, yellowish or clay colored spores, which to 347 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 2: the naked eye has the appearance of a lump of 348 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 2: whitish clay. The insects attacked by it becomes sluggish and 349 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 2: averse to flight, so that they can easily be taken 350 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 2: by hand. After a time, some of the posterior rings 351 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 2: of the abdomen fall away, revealing the fungus within. Strange 352 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 2: as it may seem, the insect may and sometimes does 353 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 2: live for a time even in this condition. So that's 354 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 2: some of like the basic observable aspects of this. And 355 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 2: I don't believe I've ever looked at a cicada specimen 356 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 2: with this scenario. I mean, I've you know, in the 357 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 2: course of my life, I've I've nudged quite a few 358 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: with my feet, you know, or or accidentally stepped on one. 359 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 2: But I don't know if I've noticed this before. But basically, 360 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: if you look at the pictures and footage and so forth, 361 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 2: you will find adult cicada specimens, so winged specimens that 362 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 2: have they have a situation where their abdomen has seemingly 363 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 2: like turned to like chalky clay. You know, It's almost 364 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 2: like their abdomen has internally petrified and then begins to crumble, 365 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 2: with the outer ridges falling away from it. 366 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 3: And yet the insect is at this point still alive, 367 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 3: which is gross and weird to think about, right. 368 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And as as Pack pointed out, you know, 369 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 2: there are many observ do say that they seem to 370 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 2: be more sluggish. I'll get into a little bit about 371 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 2: that in a bit. But then on the other hand, 372 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 2: they can also seem very energetic. So there's a lot 373 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 2: going on here. And again there seems to be a 374 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 2: lot of investigation still ongoing in various hypotheses regarding exactly 375 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: what's going on, and then there's certain things that are 376 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 2: just unknowable. You know, we cannot know the mind of 377 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 2: the cicada. 378 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just hard to imagine, like a mammal equivalent, 379 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 3: Like if a human, like the low from your belly 380 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 3: button down, that like is just gone, that fell off, 381 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 3: and there's just like a big lump of white clay 382 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 3: chalk kind of gunk sticking out of the bottom of 383 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 3: your torso and you're still alive and moving around, but 384 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 3: maybe sluggish. 385 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, leaving a trail of spores behind you and 386 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 2: occasionally rubbing spores against other humans and infecting them. So 387 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 2: I looked to a couple of different recent sources about 388 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 2: the organism in question. Rachel treisman Over at MPR covered 389 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 2: M Cicadina earlier this month, providing a nice overview of 390 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: the organism. Essentially, it's still quite active and one of 391 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 2: the reasons, of course, you know, we have these emergencies, 392 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 2: these these two major broods, and so there are a 393 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 2: lot of periodical cilicadas out there, and there's gonna be 394 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 2: a certain amount of infected periodical circados to check out. 395 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 2: So I'm gonna have to keep an eye open for 396 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: these now. And certainly listeners write in if you find one. 397 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 2: But it's interesting that the chalky abdomen that we've been 398 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 2: describing it does kind of match up with the name 399 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 2: of the organism. So massospora essentially means spore grinder, alluding 400 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 2: to the fact that it would almost seem that the 401 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 2: hind parts of the cicada have been again petrified and 402 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 2: then pulverized or like grated, you know, like parmesan cheese 403 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 2: or something. 404 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 3: Oh not the not the shreds, but the dust. Yeah, 405 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 3: using that side of the greater box. Yeah, you want 406 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 3: the dusting, right, Yeah. So it's try some points out here. M. 407 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 3: Cicadina employees is active host transmission, So the cicada again 408 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 3: remains alive and active, though its behavior may be altered 409 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 3: by the fungus, or i mean, the behavior seems to 410 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 3: be altered by the fungus. Exactly how it's being altered, 411 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 3: you know, if we're talking physically, chemically, so forth. There's 412 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 3: a lot of back and forth over that. But all 413 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 3: of this does seem to serve to optimize the distribution 414 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 3: of the spores. So let's break down the live cycle. 415 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 3: And I'm also drawing on a specialized fungal parasite hijacks 416 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 3: the Sexual Signals of periodical Cicadas by koli at All, 417 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 3: published in scientific reports back in twenty eighteen. Okay, so 418 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 3: remember the life cycle of the periodical cicada. So it 419 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 3: begins here with the emergence of those periodical cicadas. They're 420 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 3: coming up through the ground and as this occurs, some 421 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 3: of the individuals become infected with this this fungal parasite. Now, 422 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 3: the exact number, estimates are maybe five percent of the 423 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 3: population total according to Treisman, but the number can reach 424 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 3: twenty to thirty percent in different areas. So you know, 425 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 3: you might have a like a major hub, a major 426 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 3: area where they're the higher. 427 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 2: Rate of infection. But overall it's thought that maybe this 428 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:19,479 Speaker 2: is like five percent of the periodical cicada population. Okay, 429 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 2: so these are already these ones that are emerging and 430 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 2: become infected as they emerge. More than that at a second. 431 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 2: In a second, these are stage one infected cicadas, and 432 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 2: they produce haploid condiospores that can infect other active adult cicadas. 433 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: Later on in the emergence, the cicadas infected by these 434 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 2: spores becomes stage two cicadas and stage two infected cicadas, 435 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 2: and they produce diploid resting spores. These spores fall to 436 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 2: the ground where they can actually seemingly lay dormant in 437 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 2: or on the soil for thirteen to seventeen years, though 438 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 2: they can activate pretty much right away, but they're there 439 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 2: on or in the soil, and they infect emerging nymphs. 440 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 3: Ah okay, So spores that can just lie in wait 441 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 3: for thirteen or seventeen years get around the periodical adaptation 442 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 3: in a way that the population of predatory animals could not. 443 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 3: You can't have a big enough population of birds to 444 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 3: eat all of the cicadas just waiting around for thirteen 445 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 3: years for them to come back. They'd starve in the meantime. 446 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 3: But if you're a spore, you can just sit there 447 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 3: and wait. 448 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 2: That's right, like a little landmine, ready to go off 449 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 2: and infect one of those nymphs when it begins emerging 450 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 2: for the final period of the life cycle. So that's 451 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,479 Speaker 2: the basic cycle. But then there are the details of 452 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 2: what the infection does. The major thing, of course, is 453 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 2: what we've already talked about. This is the distension and 454 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: loss of these abdominal segments, which includes the genitalia in 455 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 2: both sexes, So, in other words, turns the entire inside 456 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 2: of the abdomen into one big mass of spores, it 457 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: loses any of its reproductive organs, and then all of 458 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 2: this becomes exposed as the outer abdomen eventually ruptures and 459 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 2: begins to fall away, and they turn into crawling, flying 460 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 2: spore crop dusters. 461 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 3: So they're just crawling around great in the spiky side 462 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 3: of the box grade or just dusting everything. 463 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. And this is where the topic 464 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 2: of behavioral adaptation comes into play. To what degree is 465 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 2: the parasite also manipulating behavior of the infected cicada. So yeah, 466 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 2: a lot of coverage points to this, but when you 467 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 2: get into some of the papers, such as the one 468 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 2: I just cited, there seems to be a lot more 469 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 2: uncertainty because, on one hands, cooly I all point out 470 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 2: some of the apparent changes in behavior may be brought 471 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 2: on as much by physical changes due to the infection. 472 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 2: For instance, they cite that infected cicadas often remain more stationary, 473 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 2: make shorter flights, and drag their abdomens when they want 474 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 2: trailing spores. Of course, and these changes could in large 475 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 2: part be brought on by the damage they've sustained via 476 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 2: the infection. Again, they've they've they've sustained a lot of 477 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 2: damage here. They're they're abdomen has been transformed into just 478 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 2: a sport a crumbling spor sack with the flesh, you know, 479 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 2: crumbling off around it. And they also point out that 480 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 2: stage ones tend to walk and trail more, while Stage 481 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 2: twos tend to fly and spread. So, you know, I 482 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 2: guess the idea here is Stage ones are trailing and 483 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 2: around in you know, on branches and areas where other 484 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 2: cicadas are going to gather, while the stage twos they're 485 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 2: flying around because their spores are you know, mint if 486 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 2: we we dare use that word to to to fall 487 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 2: to the ground where they will be useful later on 488 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 2: when nymphs emerge. But they stressed that this could be 489 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 2: behavioral manipulation as well. Uh So, here's where it gets 490 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 2: even more interesting. This, according to Coolie at All quote, 491 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: stage one massive spora infection, which produce spores that are 492 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 2: spread directly to other adult cicadas, cause males to wingflick 493 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: in response to the calls of other males with the 494 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 2: same species specific timing used by sexually receptive magicicada females. 495 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 2: These novel wing flick responses are attractive to normal, uninfected 496 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 2: males who repeatedly attempt to copulate with the disease males. 497 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,239 Speaker 2: So these copulations are going to be unfruitful, be it 498 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 2: male female or male male matches, because remember the genitals 499 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 2: are all destroyed anyway. But it results in a mimicry 500 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 2: of receptive mates, and so they end up, you know, 501 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 2: rubbing their abdomens together. At least, you know, you're getting 502 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 2: those spores moved around, the scores spread, and that, at 503 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 2: least to the fungus is what matters. And in this 504 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 2: the fungal pathogen acts as a sexually transmitted pathogen. 505 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 3: Okay, so this is an example of how it may 506 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 3: be the fungus, as we've seen in other examples of 507 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 3: a fungi that infect insects. Because remember, like the other 508 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 3: example I mentioned the Ohio Cordyceps fungus which infects ants. 509 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 3: I think that's the one that causes them to you know, 510 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 3: it makes them like climb up to the top of 511 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 3: a you know, some overhanging thing, and they like glatch 512 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 3: onto it, and then they grow these bodies out of 513 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 3: like a spike out of their head or somewhere out 514 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 3: of their bodies and rain down spores on the other 515 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 3: ants below. That's an example of what is thought to 516 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 3: be a kind of behavior manipulation, and this looks more 517 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 3: like a direct behavior manipulation, and not just the insects 518 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 3: responding to changes in their body right. 519 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 2: But with one potential caveat when we get to the 520 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: chemical aspect of what may or may not be going on. Okay, okay, 521 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: so okay, So we have these stage ones, We have 522 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 2: these males on their branches, twitching their wings like their females, 523 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 2: attracting other males. Stage two infections, though, do not cause 524 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 2: this behavior. And again the stress seems to be on 525 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 2: these these stage two infected cicadas spreading these spores to 526 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:09,959 Speaker 2: the ground where they will in time infect emergent nymphs. 527 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 2: So this is where we get to the chemical aspect 528 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 2: of it, and the idea that there's chemical manipulation going 529 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 2: on as well by the parasite. So as pointed out 530 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 2: in Triisman's article, the fungus has also been found to 531 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 2: produce a stimulant called cathinone a plant associated amphetamine in 532 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 2: four infected cicada populations, and then elsewhere we have infected 533 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 2: populations of annual cicadas which were found to contain the 534 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 2: hallucinogen psilocybin, according to a study published in Fungal Ecology 535 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: back in twenty nineteen. 536 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 3: Wait a minute, so it's this fungus is getting its 537 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 3: hosts sort of caffeinated and on mushrooms. 538 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 2: Essentially, Yeah, there is. So one of the big caveats 539 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 2: here is that, again, we can't know the mind of 540 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,239 Speaker 2: a cicada. Right, A lot of headlines that you know, 541 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 2: you know, at least jokingly have some fun with the 542 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 2: idea that the cicadas are high out of their minds. 543 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 2: We don't really know if they're high, but we can't help. 544 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 2: But but but look at these chemicals in these cicadas 545 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: and wonder, like, what the purpose is here? What is 546 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 2: it doing? And to what degree is it affecting behavior? 547 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 2: And there seems to be a strong case for. 548 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 3: That, right, I apologize for over anthropomorphizing by implication. 549 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 2: No no, no, no, But you're you're also onto the 550 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 2: right track too. So I couldn't find as much about 551 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 2: the psilossignment aspect and again, those are going to be 552 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 2: annual cicadas and not periodicals. But there has been more 553 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 2: hypothesized about the stimulants in the periodical cicadas, so some 554 00:32:54,360 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: have speculated that these do in fact enhance cicada libidah 555 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 2: or to some degree make this caya not particularly care 556 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 2: about the physical changes they're undergoing. But the other main 557 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 2: interpretation is that that that cathinone the stimulant is what 558 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 2: causes that rapid wing movement, So like, oh, like, why 559 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 2: are they moving their wings rapidly and mimic and ultimately 560 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 2: mimicking receptive females. It could be because they're just jacked 561 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 2: up on this uh, this this particular stimulant in their 562 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 2: bodies and it's causing the wing flapping, which then causes 563 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 2: this additional behavioral change. 564 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 3: So it's possible the stimulant causes just sort of a 565 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 3: nervous behavior, like a flexing kind of behavior, which happens 566 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 3: to resemble mating signals, which attracts other males who hopefully 567 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 3: will get infected by this fungus from the fungus's perspective. 568 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 2: That's right. Again, there's a lot there's a lot more 569 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 2: to consider there, and there seems to be a lot 570 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 2: of work still going on, and you know, ultimately this 571 00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 2: gate is getting high. We just don't know, But you 572 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 2: might wonder about humans getting high, because, of course, both 573 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 2: of these substances we mentioned, including psilocybin, of course, are 574 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 2: known for their effects in human beings. So you might wonder, well, 575 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 2: could not a human just come along and eat a 576 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 2: bunch of cathanone or psilocybin infected cicadas and then experience 577 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 2: that the intended high. And we have to remember that 578 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,320 Speaker 2: cicadas themselves have long been on the menu for humans, 579 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 2: so there's nothing out of bounds about eating cicadas, But 580 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 2: what about these infected ones? Could you get high? 581 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 3: Okay? 582 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 2: Well, fortunately, there have been some papers that have already 583 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 2: analyzed this question. We've had some experts weigh in on it. 584 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 2: So one individual, there's a doctor David Shelter aka bug 585 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 2: Doctor Dave or bug Doc Dave from Ohio State University, 586 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 2: and he's already taken to the news cycle to get 587 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 2: ahead of this informing everyone that, okay, first of all, 588 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 2: one hundred to one hundred and fifty pound human being 589 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 2: would have to eat about one hundred infected cicadas to 590 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 2: feel anything off of that cathinone in their systems. And 591 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 2: if you weigh more than that, if you weigh more 592 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 2: than one fifty, you're going to have to eat even 593 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 2: more infected cicadas. 594 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 3: You know, far be it from me to demonize into myphaji. 595 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 3: Nothing wrong with eating insects, But I don't know if 596 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 3: you ate that many infected cicadas, I feel like you 597 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 3: might just barf before you got to got to the same. 598 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 3: I don't know, well, I don't even know what the 599 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 3: exact effects of cathinone are supposed to be in a human. 600 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 3: Would it be similar to other common stimulants like caffeine 601 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 3: or something. 602 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 2: I was reading a little bit about other uses of it, 603 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 2: and there are other ways that humans have long acquired it. 604 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,399 Speaker 2: It would be like a stimulant high. So that's another 605 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 2: thing worth keeping in mind. It's like there are other 606 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 2: ways out there to get this other than eating cicadas. 607 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 2: And I also have seen it advise that when humans 608 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 2: do eat cicadas, we tend to eat the ones that 609 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 2: have just emerged from their shells, like these are the tastiest. 610 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 2: These are the juiciest. I've heard them described as buttery. 611 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 2: The ones we're talking about the ones that are full 612 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 2: of pathoogenic fungal spores. These look like they would even 613 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 2: if you're not talking about eating a big lump of 614 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 2: fungal spores, they're going to be like maybe crustier and 615 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 2: crunchier and like just not as good. 616 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. So so the ones that have just emerged, they're 617 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 3: like the soft shell crabs of the insect world. 618 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's that's that's probably an accurate comparison. Like, 619 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 2: you want the soft shell It's okay this, you don't 620 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 2: want the drier ones, the older ones, And that's not 621 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 2: even counting in this big old lump of spores. And 622 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 2: I also found some additional info in this. Matt Cassen, 623 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 2: an associate professor of forest pathology and mycology at West 624 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 2: Virginia University, points out in a Carol Murphy Marcos article 625 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:54,399 Speaker 2: for The Guardian that, Okay, we do have people out 626 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 2: there already trying this, trying to eat a bunch of 627 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 2: cicadas to get that stimulant hit. But he cautions again 628 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 2: he says, quote, there's always a risk in eating cicadas 629 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 2: pump filled with amphetamines. That was just one of a 630 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,320 Speaker 2: thousand compounds we found in the cicadas, and we don't 631 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 2: know what those other compounds are capable of doing to humans. 632 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 2: So I think all that sounds like a good reason 633 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 2: to maybe pass on this particular high if you ask me, 634 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:23,880 Speaker 2: I mean, it's not going to make your butt crumble 635 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 2: or anything. I mean, nobody's arguing that like these are. 636 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 2: You know, like others have pointed out in some of 637 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 2: these articles, you can pick up one of these infected 638 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 2: cicadas and look at it. You might want to wash 639 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 2: your hands afterwards, but it's not like, oh, I might 640 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 2: catch these spores like these are these spores are not 641 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 2: for you. But on the other hand, I don't eat 642 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,399 Speaker 2: a hundred of them because I just aren't exactly sure 643 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 2: what else is in there. Yeah, So in general, there's 644 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 2: a better use of your time. There are better ways 645 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 2: to enjoy the cicadas, you know, listen to them, enjoy 646 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 2: the ambiance, or in decide that this is essentially the 647 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 2: muse is telling you you need to get deep and 648 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 2: talk about philosophy. I guess the other challenge worth pointing 649 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 2: out here is, of course, again in general, we're talking 650 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 2: something like five percent of the cicada population, So you're 651 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 2: gonna have, you would have to do a fair amount 652 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 2: of foraging to get anywhere anything like enough dead cicadas 653 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,839 Speaker 2: to eat for this particular ill advised experiment, I'd say 654 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 2: have an espresso instead. 655 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 3: Did you find it? I wonder what do the natural 656 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 3: predators think about the infected ones, so they have any 657 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 3: preference for against do they care? 658 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 2: You know, I didn't see that address in any of 659 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 2: the articles I was looking at. Yeah, you are predators 660 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 2: avoiding the infected cicadas that maybe something will have to 661 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,360 Speaker 2: come back to if there's anything out there dealing with it. 662 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 3: Well, I asked, because I'm again not recommending people eat 663 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 3: these things for the aforementioned reasons, But you know, I 664 00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 3: think about there are cases of certain certain things with 665 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 3: fungal infections being considered especially good or a delicacy, at 666 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 3: least by humans, and in some cases maybe preferred by 667 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,800 Speaker 3: some predatory animals. I think about like you know, wheedlcoche 668 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,919 Speaker 3: in maize and stuff like that. 669 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, or certainly you could. This is not a 670 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 2: one to one here, but you could talk about the 671 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 2: fermented fruit being attractive to various mammal species. You know, 672 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 2: It's like when food when prey undergo certain changes, it 673 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 2: may be more desirable. So yeah, I'll have to look 674 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 2: around a bit more and see if anyone's talking about this, 675 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 2: but I did not, and at least initially come across 676 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,359 Speaker 2: a study that tackled it well. 677 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 3: Before we wrap up, there's one more thing I wanted 678 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 3: to bring up today because I mentioned it in the 679 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 3: last episode. Was and it was the idea of other 680 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 3: possible explanations for why periodical cicadas would have these long 681 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 3: thirteen and seventeen year periods between synchronized emergencies, like what 682 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,919 Speaker 3: are the evolutionary pressures driving that, apart from the hype 683 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 3: athesis that it that it's part of a kind of 684 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 3: beefing up of the satiation strategy, the anti predator strategy, 685 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 3: which does seem to be a dominant way of thinking 686 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 3: about it. But there are questions about that kind of strategy. 687 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 3: And one is, for example, only a few species of 688 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 3: the many many species of cicadas on Earth are periodical 689 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 3: like this, And if it is, and you know, all 690 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 3: these other annual cicadas from around the world are also 691 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,439 Speaker 3: preyed on by you know, lots of predators eat them, 692 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 3: and so if this is such a a such a 693 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 3: fruitful strategy, why don't more species exhibit it. 694 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point. And it also it didn't 695 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,919 Speaker 2: run across any speculation on this in the in the past, 696 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 2: but we talked about how the mergence of periodical cicadas 697 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 2: in North America is relatively speaking, a recent occurrence, a 698 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 2: recent development. It does make one wonder have there been 699 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 2: other cases in the history of insects on Earth where 700 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 2: some sort of insects species or another adapted to some 701 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 2: sort of periodical lifestyle life cycle and it has just 702 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 2: fallen away over time either those species went extinct, you know, 703 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,240 Speaker 2: or they evolved into stages they had to essentially become 704 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 2: annual again, or something to that effect. 705 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I don't know. But I was looking into 706 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 3: this question of like, Okay, well, what would other explanations 707 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 3: be if it's not just this anti predator strategy or 708 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 3: way to avoid parasitoids or predators adapting to your emergen cycle. 709 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,800 Speaker 3: And there seemed to be a few ideas floating around 710 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 3: out there. One general class of explanations is that it 711 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:56,359 Speaker 3: is somehow just sort of a remnant of an adaptation 712 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 3: that was formed during the Pleistocene epoch. During there was 713 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 3: a lot more glaciation in North America, and that these 714 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 3: periods of cold unstable weather would move further and further south, 715 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 3: and this pressure, the pressure of unpredictable cold weather, caused 716 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 3: some cicadas to extend their underground periods and it provided 717 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 3: an evolutionary incentive. It rewarded them from coming out less often, 718 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 3: developing these longer and longer periods underground, and then from 719 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 3: that point on it was of course useful for these 720 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 3: species to synchronize their emergencies to all come out at 721 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 3: the same time. There was an incentive in favor of that. 722 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,880 Speaker 3: Another hypothesis I've seen for specifically the thirteen and seventeen 723 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 3: year timing of the emergencies is that once there were 724 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 3: ancestral periodical populations in place, there would have been a 725 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:55,799 Speaker 3: biological incentive to avoid breeding with other populations that had 726 00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 3: a differently timed cycle, because this could lead to hybridization, 727 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,880 Speaker 3: which would interfere with the periodicity adaptation. So like, in 728 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 3: order to be effective as a periodically emerging species, you 729 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 3: really want to be fully synchronized, like have all your 730 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 3: population come out at once within the same place, so 731 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 3: that you can take best advantage of predator satiation and 732 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 3: so forth, and so it's possible there's a disincentive for 733 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,239 Speaker 3: thirteen and seventeen year populations to interbreed because that might 734 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,479 Speaker 3: unsynchronize them. But I've also seen arguments sort of coming 735 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,280 Speaker 3: back against that, so it seems like to some extent, 736 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,800 Speaker 3: I think we alluded to this in the first episode. 737 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 3: It still somewhat remains mysterious exactly why these thirteen and 738 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 3: seventeen year time scales have been selected by evolution, but 739 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 3: still leading hypotheses have something to do often with predator satiation. 740 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 3: Either it's too as we've said, to avoid predator and 741 00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 3: parasitoid adaptations matching the times of the emergence, or to 742 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 3: avoid interbreeding or to h or maybe it is related 743 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 3: to patterns that emerge during the ice age and have 744 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 3: stuck around ever since. 745 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 2: Fascinating though anyway you look at it, and it's just 746 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 2: one of the I think the great things about cicada 747 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,359 Speaker 2: is there's just so many interesting layers to them, from 748 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 2: their their their basic anatomy and basic physiology, to these cycles, 749 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 2: to then human interpretations of these cycles. Uh yeah, so 750 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,279 Speaker 2: much fun. And I guess we might be pressing on 751 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 2: with another episode. I don't know, it's kind of TBD 752 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,120 Speaker 2: at this point. Will there be a Cicada Part four 753 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,880 Speaker 2: in this series? We're gonna have to to go back 754 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,399 Speaker 2: to the notes and take a look. But I guess 755 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,800 Speaker 2: you know you'll find out in a couple of days. 756 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,760 Speaker 3: Here see what emerges on Thursday. 757 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 2: That's right, all right, We're gonna goe and close out 758 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 2: this episode, but hey, you have Cicada thoughts, Cicada observations 759 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 2: right in. We would love to hear from you. Now 760 00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 2: that I think about it, I think we had a 761 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,359 Speaker 2: listener right in out the Bearside angle and nudged us 762 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 2: forward on that, So you know, I don't recall who 763 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 2: wrote in with that, but certainly that helped nudge us 764 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 2: in this direction. But yeah, right in, we'd love to 765 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 2: hear from you. And just a reminder that Stuff to 766 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,320 Speaker 2: Blow your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, 767 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 2: with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Mondays we 768 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,480 Speaker 2: do listener mail. Wednesdays, there's generally a short form episode, 769 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,800 Speaker 2: and then on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns 770 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 2: to just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 771 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 772 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:36,239 Speaker 3: If you'd like to get in touch with us with 773 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 3: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a 774 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 3: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you 775 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 3: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 776 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 3: Mind dot com. 777 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 778 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,439 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 779 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.