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Speaker 1: This is me Eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening to huntcast,

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Speaker 1: you can't predict anything presented by First, like creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear

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Speaker 1: for every hunt first like go farther, stay longer. Hey there,

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Speaker 1: I'm Janice, but tell us and I'm here to read

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Speaker 1: an ad for you today because Steve is up at

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Speaker 1: the fish shack having fun with all of his friends

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Speaker 1: catching salmon, spear and salmon, diving for scallops, trying to

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Speaker 1: catch halibt um, just general, you know, a good Southeast

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Speaker 1: Alaska fun, but not I mean, I'm here in the

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Speaker 1: podcast student, you know, reading this ad for you. Alright,

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Speaker 1: but listen up, very serious. You should get fired up

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Speaker 1: because this is big, this ad here that I'm about

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Speaker 1: to tell you. Are you're listening all right? It's the

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Speaker 1: first ever organization wide meaning everything under the Meat Eater

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Speaker 1: umbrella meaning the Meat Eater Store, Phelps, f HF, and

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Speaker 1: First Light. It's all on sale August second through the fourth. Okay.

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Speaker 1: What's cool about this is that now under the new

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Speaker 1: shopping experience that you can find on our website. You

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Speaker 1: can do all your shopping in one place, put it

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Speaker 1: all into one car. And the big hicker here is

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Speaker 1: that you only pay for shipping one time. Um, I've

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Speaker 1: done a little bit of surfing on the new media website,

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Speaker 1: but phil Um says he's been down in the rabbit

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Speaker 1: hole a few times? Why do you like that new website? So,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think listeners know. I'm usually not the

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Speaker 1: one to be able to speak to this the stuff

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Speaker 1: that we sell on selling website. I'm a relatively new hunter.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm not too deep in the waters. But man,

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Speaker 1: if you if you have not been to the website

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Speaker 1: in the last few weeks since it's been updated, I

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Speaker 1: maybe the last time you shop was before last year's

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Speaker 1: hunting season, check it out. It's great. It's very aesthetically pleasing.

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Speaker 1: Like I'd say, if you had a choice to take

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Speaker 1: a plane to New York to visit the Museum of

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Speaker 1: Modern Art or go to the meat Eater dot com

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Speaker 1: and check out our new store, that's a toss up.

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Speaker 1: I'd say check out the store. It's way cheaper, way easier. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, like, go shopping on Amazon versus

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Speaker 1: shopping on media at the meteat store. Oh no, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to compare us to Amazon, comparing us to MoMA. Okay, Okay,

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Speaker 1: A couple of the items that you can find that

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Speaker 1: will be for sale is going to be, uh Like,

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Speaker 1: let's let's start with a meat Eaters store. I want

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Speaker 1: to mention that everything that we that is on there

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Speaker 1: is curated by the team. Okay, Cal helps, Seth Morris Chester, myself,

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Speaker 1: even Steve Ways in a little bit on what we

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Speaker 1: should be carrying in that store. Okay, but it's all

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Speaker 1: like really solid stuff. And even though I might not

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Speaker 1: like use every piece that's on there, somebody in the

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Speaker 1: company has said, I love that gear. I want us

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Speaker 1: to sell that. Okay. At the meter store, there's Vortex Optics,

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Speaker 1: trauma kits, Booze, cutting boards, and our logo where you're

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Speaker 1: gonna buy the trauma kit first and then the cutting board,

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Speaker 1: but when you're at home, you're probably gonna be using

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Speaker 1: the cutting board and then need your trauma kit. So

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Speaker 1: think about that. Be prepared first. Light off almost everything,

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Speaker 1: including percent off the uncompagrade two point oh jacket, which

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Speaker 1: is probably the piece that I use the most out

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Speaker 1: of the whole first light lineup f hf percent off.

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Speaker 1: The Biny Harness phelps up to fifty off select items,

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Speaker 1: including off all renegade bugle tubes. So if you're not

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Speaker 1: ready to go metal yet, get yourself renegade bugle tube.

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Speaker 1: It almost half off. This might entice you to buy

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Speaker 1: a medal to a regular price and then get off

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Speaker 1: ending gave you go to and try and boat side

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Speaker 1: by side. All right, so remember you got three days

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Speaker 1: August two, third, and fourth. You can buy it all

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Speaker 1: in one place, pay for shipping only once four brands,

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Speaker 1: one card. Get it. It's gonna be the season opener

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Speaker 1: sale of all season opener sales. That's a tongue twister.

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Speaker 1: All right, thank you for listening. All right, everybody, you

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Speaker 1: know we go, we go all the way to the top,

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Speaker 1: go all way to the top on this show. And

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Speaker 1: that's why we have the president and CEO, the lead

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Speaker 1: figure of the Peregrine Fund here with us today, Chris Parrish. Uh,

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Speaker 1: before we get into it, Chris Krin, I gathered you

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Speaker 1: can test the idea that D and D is the

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Speaker 1: primary driver of falconry. We just gotta put this thing

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Speaker 1: to bed now. I let me tell you my evidence. Okay,

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Speaker 1: my evidence is this, Well, you asked me, Now you're

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Speaker 1: gonna love your question. My here's my evidence. Do you

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Speaker 1: not listen to the shallow crest? I do? I have

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Speaker 1: a family member. Um, I'm trying to keep it distance

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Speaker 1: so the person. If the person is listening, they don't

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Speaker 1: know I'm talking about them, like the person that I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna get to in a minute. I have a family

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Speaker 1: member who had a roommate who they were way into

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Speaker 1: D n D and that involved them first having like

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Speaker 1: a lot of serpents, horrible roommates. They had serpents and

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Speaker 1: that was like a D and D thing, and then

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Speaker 1: pretty soon they graduated the falconry because they wanted to

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Speaker 1: look like a wizard. And I heard that was a

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Speaker 1: pretty common path, and then UM developed my theory that

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Speaker 1: the bulk of falconers outside of the Middle East, American

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Speaker 1: falconers are driven are are driven down that path through

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Speaker 1: D n Well, I'm so glad you asked because um, Well,

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Speaker 1: to be fair, I mean, I've been with the Paragrine

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Speaker 1: Fund for twenty two years is founded by falconers. Falconry

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Speaker 1: is a huge part of the way and how we

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Speaker 1: do our business. But um, I had to ask her

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Speaker 1: in what D and D is. So let's start there

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Speaker 1: and dragons. You know what I'm talking about, right, I

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Speaker 1: know about I know that the word, yeah, the phrase.

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Speaker 1: But all your members aren't into that. I don't think

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Speaker 1: any of them are. And falcony community is right now

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Speaker 1: a plotting Yeah, no, the falconry community. If you look

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Speaker 1: at the history of falconry and you want to talk

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Speaker 1: about the US is history in falconry, you have to

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Speaker 1: go back to UM the conservation movement and how that's

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Speaker 1: tied to falconry, because falconry of three four thousand years ago, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's Turkey series. I ran what we call it today

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Speaker 1: and it's in all the as soon as art and

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Speaker 1: any art form, whether it's written or pictographs, petroglyphs, anything

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Speaker 1: like that. You see falconry, you see depictions of of

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Speaker 1: husbandry of animals that are depicted as being used to

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Speaker 1: catch prey. Were the Egyptians into it absolutely because they

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Speaker 1: got a lot of falcons and stuff in there. Yeah, No,

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Speaker 1: they're highly Do they have do they have hieroglyphics that

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Speaker 1: suggests that's what they were doing with them? Well, not

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Speaker 1: just that they were keeping them as part of a menagerie. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because they're on the fist. In many of these the

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Speaker 1: birds are on the fist and the quarries hanging from

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Speaker 1: their gloves, much as you see. Those guys are big

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Speaker 1: into D and D form of a many sided die,

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Speaker 1: of many sided die. I'm not following you. That's a

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Speaker 1: that's okay. I only just put that together right now

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Speaker 1: because I'm not familiar. Well, I remember there was like

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Speaker 1: certain dudes in high school. I don't want to name them,

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Speaker 1: certain dudes of high school of which I was friends.

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Speaker 1: I was friends with that. You know, you got like

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Speaker 1: your jocks, right, your stoner's head bangers, um ranch kids.

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Speaker 1: Well we have farm kids. Yeah, D and D guys

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Speaker 1: who crossed over with head bangers weirdly, but not stoners. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm betting that Elder Leopold probably didn't know about

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Speaker 1: D and D and he said falconry was the perfect sport.

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Speaker 1: Come on, really really held Leopold? Yeah, well he's you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a dark side to Elder Leopold that

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Speaker 1: people don't realize. So taking like seventy five yard hail

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Speaker 1: Mary's with his bow was with his like seventy five

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Speaker 1: yard hail Mary's with a long bow at deer and

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Speaker 1: like just kind of shooting over that way to see

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Speaker 1: what happens and stuff. People hunted different back then. But

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Speaker 1: he liked falcony. Yeah, well, I mean he said it's

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Speaker 1: a perfect the perfect sport. Um fran Hammerstrom one of

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Speaker 1: his uh I think she was a PhD student. She

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Speaker 1: became one of the one of the very first ladies

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Speaker 1: in conservation and was awarded by the National Wildlife Federation

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Speaker 1: or whatever it was before it became in WF in

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Speaker 1: UH in Wisconsin for her work. And she was a

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Speaker 1: falconer and had great writings about it. And I'm surprised

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Speaker 1: that that given uh, you know, the your literate nature

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Speaker 1: of understanding and looking at all these things that that

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Speaker 1: you didn't have more of those you know, early falconers

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Speaker 1: in the US and and understood what that was. Craigheads,

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Speaker 1: for example, you talked about you both an Indian prince.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna send you a book, do you know that.

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Speaker 1: I think it was under the Clinton administration they considered

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Speaker 1: hitting Ben Ladden at a falconry camp m but didn't

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Speaker 1: because there were there were certain uh, like high level

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Speaker 1: Saudi Arabian people present in that camp, and they didn't

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Speaker 1: hit the falconry camp. I could be messing up a

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Speaker 1: small part of this, but I don't think I'm messing

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Speaker 1: up a big part of it. Well, I tell you

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Speaker 1: as much as you guys travel when you're three boys

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Speaker 1: in Idaho, come to the World Center for Birds of Prey,

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Speaker 1: and on that campus, we share it with the archives

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Speaker 1: of Falconry, and we can tell you everything about falconry

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Speaker 1: as far back as you want to go. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that? And there's not a single not a single

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Speaker 1: piece of evidence about, not a many side of day

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Speaker 1: in the building, not a mini I have you been?

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Speaker 1: Have you changed your mind? I'll never changed my mind, man,

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you think perfect? Like they don't want

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Speaker 1: to admit there into D and D it's like or

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Speaker 1: something like that. Like this little bit of evidence here,

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Speaker 1: this little bit of Evans doesn't look well. But I

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Speaker 1: need to do my counter research now, okay, check out.

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Speaker 1: Am I in a strong position right now? No, never

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Speaker 1: stopped you before. The good thing is here. Follow up

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Speaker 1: argument can come after Chris has left. So yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a quote I heard from someone who

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Speaker 1: once said, Um, Okay, so I'm wrong, but am I right? Uh?

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Speaker 1: Oh oh, here's I want to talk about this real quick?

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Speaker 1: Did you just saying, Pat durkinsent Um, there's a study

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Speaker 1: Frontiers and Sustainable Food Systems. Okay, look, here's the name

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Speaker 1: of the here's the name of the study, Locally Procured

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Speaker 1: wild game Culinary Trends in the US, A study of

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Speaker 1: the rough grouse as entree and accompanying nutritional analysis. And

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Speaker 1: this paper in the in the heading gets into how uh,

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Speaker 1: people who are into wild foods or eyes extolling the

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Speaker 1: virtues of wild foods, but oftentimes their claims are not

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Speaker 1: well substantiated in an academic sense, meaning like what is

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Speaker 1: actually in gaming is a different right, Like you might

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Speaker 1: be like eating rough grouse better and eat chicken man,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um, And the u U s d A

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Speaker 1: has this thing that's like massive thing of all the

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Speaker 1: new like mineral composition, calories, makeup of all these foods.

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Speaker 1: And these guys did the work to add the rofed grouse,

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Speaker 1: so now you'll be able to find all the nutritional

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Speaker 1: data of roughed grouse in this U s d A

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Speaker 1: database of foods. I'm just gonna give you a high,

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Speaker 1: a high level thing. So rough grouse compared to highly

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Speaker 1: consumed domestic boneless here's where it gets okay. Compared to

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Speaker 1: highly consumed domestic boneless skinless chicken breast meat, rough grouse

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Speaker 1: has more protein per serving, less calories, and significantly less

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Speaker 1: total fat and saturated fat. The cluss draw A content

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Speaker 1: of grouse is also lower than domestic chicken. Much of

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Speaker 1: the vitamin and mineral content of rust grouse of rough

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Speaker 1: grouse compared to chicken were similar, with grouse having slightly

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Speaker 1: higher amounts of iron, magnesium, phosphorus, saudi and rival flavan

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Speaker 1: and nyasin. Chicken meat had slightly higher amounts of potassium,

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Speaker 1: zinc in, vitamin A, and nichols on. But what it

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Speaker 1: gets into, the main thing, is it gets into the

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Speaker 1: health implications of hunting rough grouse. Of the people who

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Speaker 1: participated in the survey. This makes hunting rough grouse seems

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Speaker 1: like a daunting thing, and it is depending on your approach,

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Speaker 1: depending on your approach the particulars of the year, But

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Speaker 1: so so the people that participated in this survey. Hunters

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Speaker 1: participating the survey logged twenty five hours afield during the season.

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Speaker 1: They on average took about nine trips of field for

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Speaker 1: the season and has spent about three hours of field

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Speaker 1: per trip. So that's like the rough breakdown about so

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Speaker 1: the average rough grouse hunter is spending twenty seven hours

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Speaker 1: tis hunting rough grouse. Uh You generally each outing for

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Speaker 1: rough grouse is four point five miles of walking. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you ran all those stats on eating chicken, we

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Speaker 1: would be a different nation. The here's the thing about

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Speaker 1: the toughness of grouse hunt. Uh So in New York State, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is the New York State, and the hunters spending

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Speaker 1: average of nineteen hours hunting per bird harvested. Wo A

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Speaker 1: lot of that is some damn ass growls hunt. That's

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Speaker 1: why a lot of people aren't drawing the upland Game

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Speaker 1: hunting checker will carry you. They have burns people out

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Speaker 1: real fast, like and then when they get something, they're

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Speaker 1: like all of that Like calories lost to calorie games

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Speaker 1: less than a pigeon worth of meat burn away. I

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Speaker 1: asked more calories than that rose. But that's like averages

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Speaker 1: and you know you know what I mean, who knows

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Speaker 1: um and right? I think you could run it in

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Speaker 1: different places, like you could run that for the western

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Speaker 1: up of Michigan, the western upper Peninsula of Michigan, and

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Speaker 1: I think you'd wind up with some highly some very

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Speaker 1: different statistics. That just makes me question, though, my dedication

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Speaker 1: as a hunter, because man if I went out and

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Speaker 1: I got one grouse in nineteen hours on average, because

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Speaker 1: I mean, what you're hunting for maybe like with dogs,

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Speaker 1: like five or six maybe hours, so what that'd be

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Speaker 1: four days? One growl? No, I feel like here, yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh if people remember um So me Eater camp Fire

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Speaker 1: Stories close calls volume two, and I'll point out that

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Speaker 1: book that that that audio project accomplish something particular for

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Speaker 1: a genre because normally, when the book goes the audio,

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Speaker 1: like nomoany, when you buy an audio book, you're buying

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Speaker 1: an audiobook of a book that exists in print. So

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Speaker 1: when you look at the audio book best seller list,

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Speaker 1: like the New York Times best seller list for audio

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Speaker 1: books is typically audio books that wore books, So does

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Speaker 1: the awareness of the book as a print edition, and

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Speaker 1: it makes like an audio edition. But Campfire Stories debuted

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Speaker 1: and stuck there as a New York Times bestseller and

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Speaker 1: audio even though it wasn't even a damn book. Volume

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Speaker 1: two is out now. Uh It releases August sewo but

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Speaker 1: of course you can go and preorder the thing right now.

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Speaker 1: And it's uh me eater stories, narrow misses in more

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Speaker 1: close calls and and again it's like an immersive audio

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Speaker 1: experience better than the first one. Um we have on there.

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Speaker 1: Our friend Kimmy Werner, who tells the story that involved

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Speaker 1: her and a mentor of hers and she violates a

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Speaker 1: pact because they had agreed to never tell the story.

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Speaker 1: That's my favorite one. There's a phenomenal story, a near

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Speaker 1: death experience from our very own Clay nukelem Me and

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Speaker 1: my son have a story. We also have stories from

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Speaker 1: a guy who saved his friend's life by shooting at him,

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Speaker 1: a guy who got into hand and hoof combat with

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Speaker 1: a buck in a corn field, a guy who damn

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Speaker 1: near died after shooting himself in the leg duck hunting,

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Speaker 1: which is a crazy story, and his life was saved

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Speaker 1: by his dog. You're in that killian I did hear that?

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Speaker 1: If you're listening, snorts you on after that rattlesnake and

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Speaker 1: a sheep hunter who got h so horribly Cliff hung

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Speaker 1: in California, that near very near death Cliff hung Experience.

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Speaker 1: Just a really really great collection. The guy who almost

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Speaker 1: died from his own error. It's hard, hard, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: gotta tell you this some hard ship to listen to

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Speaker 1: check it out. But no, it's like it's just like

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Speaker 1: it's a lot of it's just skin crawling, but then

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Speaker 1: you know the amount of it's like tart. It's like

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Speaker 1: a quick Yeah, it's called narrow mrs More close calls.

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Speaker 1: If it was just everybody died in the end one,

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Speaker 1: it would be hard to get the stories right then,

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Speaker 1: being all dead and everything. But the amount of blood

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Speaker 1: shed in here is it is it's like it's like

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Speaker 1: watching it's like watching kill Bill. Yes, some stories I

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Speaker 1: don't want to spoil anything about it, but that one

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Speaker 1: that you mentioned where someone had to shoot at his

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Speaker 1: friend to save him, just listen. It was hard for

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Speaker 1: me to listen to that one. But just a great story,

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Speaker 1: really just interesting. So that's out Mediators camp Fire Stories.

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Speaker 1: What we're gonna do to get a taste for the series.

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Speaker 1: Last time we released the camp Fire Stories, we put

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Speaker 1: Sam Lowries the mud puddle and just like built it

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Speaker 1: on the end of the show. So, in keeping with

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Speaker 1: that tradition, we're gonna do the best shot of my life.

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Speaker 1: That's a spear fishing one. Cam Kirkconnell about the guy, Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil it. Yeah, just stay tuned

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Speaker 1: till the end because it's it's awesome. It's got everything

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Speaker 1: in it. You're gonna hear um, Yeah, we're gontack it.

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Speaker 1: On the end of the show. You'll be so titilated

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Speaker 1: by this little freebee that you'll run out and want

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Speaker 1: to get the whole damn things. You can have all

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Speaker 1: those hours and it's it's an hours of phenomenal stories,

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Speaker 1: polished and really like experiential kind of musical score, and

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Speaker 1: you're you're immersed, Yeah and polished, not like some dude

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Speaker 1: up there him and in Han like we we we

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Speaker 1: like obsess over every minute of the content. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we do. We really did. Everyone. Our good friend Jason

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Speaker 1: Phelps over it. Phelps game calls just came out with

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you this at one time or another, like

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Speaker 1: I kind of pointed this out, like driving around and

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Speaker 1: like friends cars and you you know how everybody has

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Speaker 1: a bunch of junk in their car on the dashboard

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Speaker 1: of the glove box. I have experimented with probably every

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Speaker 1: every elk call, every cow call I'm not saying mastered

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Speaker 1: or like even made a passable sound. I have experimented

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Speaker 1: with probably every cow call on the market at some

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Speaker 1: point or another over my lifetime. I think that, uh,

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Speaker 1: in my view, Phelps is easy to sucker. Is the

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Speaker 1: easiest cow call I have ever used. Under this category

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Speaker 1: that makes a wide variety of sounds. I probably need

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Speaker 1: to get one because I have a hard time listen.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand. I don't get the mechanics of it.

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Speaker 1: But normally so like over the years, people come out

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Speaker 1: with bite and blow calls that are like monos. They

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Speaker 1: make a sound, and everyone that uses them all makes

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Speaker 1: that same sound. It becomes something of a joke, like

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Speaker 1: a good call will come out. Then a couple of

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Speaker 1: years later people laugh about when you make when you

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Speaker 1: blow that call the alcohol goal the other direction, because

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Speaker 1: you're like ship. It's one of those dudes. That one

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Speaker 1: call um where you lose that problem is with diaphragm,

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Speaker 1: because you have like like a tremendous vocabulary with a diaphragm.

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Speaker 1: But this one is like one of the problems. A

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Speaker 1: lot of bite and blow calls to or exposed read

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Speaker 1: calls is it's so hard to get like the pressures

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Speaker 1: of how much pressure with your lips or teeth you're

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Speaker 1: putting on it, how much air you're putting through. It's

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Speaker 1: just a pain in yass. And it's coming from guy

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Speaker 1: who thinks game calls are painting he has in general. Uh,

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Speaker 1: holy sh it, dude, Cal's gonna Cal's gonna suck on it. Steven.

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Speaker 1: It's like you don't know, you don't you don't blow

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Speaker 1: on it. You're just like and it's not even like

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Speaker 1: you're sucking. You're like it's like a like an inhale.

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Speaker 1: Do you like hyperventilate? It's like inhale and and like

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Speaker 1: and it's hands free. It's just it's like a green rubber.

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Speaker 1: It's called the easy sucker. Do you like it? Steve?

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Speaker 1: Screwing this up a little bit? Okay, go ahead, Okay.

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Speaker 1: So the more complex and called the wider range and

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Speaker 1: noises you're you're gonna be able to make, but the

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Speaker 1: more time you need to get into it and uh

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Speaker 1: and really started playing, because they're like a musical instrument,

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Speaker 1: a kazoo in the hands of someone who actually has

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Speaker 1: messed around with a kazoo, a bunch can make that

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Speaker 1: sound appealing. People who really pay after you get um,

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Speaker 1: after you get Rhonda Santis and Chris Pratt, Chris Press

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know who's the galph Meds NBC. I

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Speaker 1: always want to get on the show, Rachel Madden, get

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Speaker 1: us a good kazoo player. Thirty five minutes of pure

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Speaker 1: kazoo easy listening. Uh, this is a dog inhale calicoll,

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Speaker 1: but it's got a bite component to it, so you

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Speaker 1: can actually create some different tones and pitches. Volumes. Is

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Speaker 1: that included in tones and pitches? Well, I think there's

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a limitation on this, which is good

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Speaker 1: as far as like your overall volume. I was messing

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Speaker 1: around with this, and you can do like some some

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Speaker 1: little bowl sounds too, and and some Phelps can Phelps

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Speaker 1: can do, but he doesn't like to say. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: like to wreck amend it for bowl like, Oh, he

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Speaker 1: was way out there. I think I need to get

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Speaker 1: myself one of those. I can't play time with that one.

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Speaker 1: And volume, you can actually get a different insert, right

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Speaker 1: like I think Phelps has a different insert, So yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can get a different like a louder call. She

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Speaker 1: can switch mountain and you can take the biggest jackass

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Speaker 1: on the planet there trying to segue into my kids

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Speaker 1: on the end of that, you can take my children

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Speaker 1: and they can make cow calls with it, Steve saying

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Speaker 1: they have the experience level of jackasses or my children. Yes,

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00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: that's like you're go for them. You can do a

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Speaker 1: lot of playing around with the wraps, the kids, the

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Speaker 1: monotone do everything yourself. Cow calls are the ones that

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Speaker 1: I certainly stay away for m and I like to

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Speaker 1: pick up one new col call a year, yep, and

395
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Speaker 1: just mess around with it and try to find something different.

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Speaker 1: And everybody has like a different read, thickness of read,

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Speaker 1: length of read, et cetera. That makes a different pitch

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Speaker 1: and call. So um, yeah, I need that one. And

399
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Speaker 1: I feel like we all have that hunting buddy too

400
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Speaker 1: that you just know you're gonna have to call for

401
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: all the time, right, Like you're always going to be

402
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 1: the guy in the back calling for him because he's

403
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: just not gonna call. Like I brought that home, gave

404
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 1: it to my wife, and it was like within just

405
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: related to what you're just saying. I wouldn't say it's unrelated,

406
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 1: but like within or take my wife friend. But in

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Speaker 1: like a two minute time frame, I'm like, you're gonna

408
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 1: be able to call for me, Like you're legitimately going

409
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 1: to be able to call for me. Now that's awesome.

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Speaker 1: I love it, dude, I'm throwing other ship in the

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Speaker 1: garbage or in a box. Well, I do point out,

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Speaker 1: since this is an inhale cow call, there's definitely room

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Speaker 1: for an exhale cal call, of which Phelps makes several

414
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Speaker 1: external read calls that are understand if you want to

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Speaker 1: pick up a call, if you want to pick up

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Speaker 1: a call and make a like and make very passable

417
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Speaker 1: cow calls very quickly and not just one sound, but

418
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Speaker 1: a variety of sounds, I would be like this and

419
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 1: then just waste your breath exhaling for no reason. And

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Speaker 1: I would say that if I thought Phelps was the

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Speaker 1: was the biggest asshole in the world, I still say

422
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 1: the same thing, because it's like an objective reality. It's

423
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: it's a good one. I like, I like a minimum

424
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 1: of two external read calls because you can definitely jam

425
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: them up with with gunk and spit and you know,

426
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: dirt and all the pollen and bugs. And I can

427
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: keep going on with this list um and about this

428
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: this this is a fun one. That's a fun one

429
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: to add to the land yard. Cal do do do uh.

430
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to say one last land access initiative.

431
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: So here's the deal, folks. We've been running the land

432
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: Access Initiative for quite a while. It's a sweet program.

433
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: We've had some success under our belt with the Shiloh

434
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: Pond project. We're looking for the next one. We're still

435
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: in the active looking phase. We've gotten a lot of suggestions,

436
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: but honestly, very few out of probably six or seven

437
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: hundred submissions at this sex of like of like solid

438
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: this is the place, this is what we want to do,

439
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: like like a project. We've we've had ideas of projects

440
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: that frankly, we just don't have time for. You're looking

441
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: for a whole nonprofit organization that can focus their time

442
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: on this, of which there are so many, So get

443
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: off your key, star and and I've forward these on

444
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: to my friends in those positions. But we are looking

445
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: for a place that is open to an easement outright purchase,

446
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,719
Speaker 1: something that will provide more public access to hunting and fishing.

447
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: We got a lot of awesome stuff in the works.

448
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: We got some cash on the fund right now. We

449
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: got a lot of partners on board to make this happen. Um,

450
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: we had we had an amazing donation offer. We have

451
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 1: people that want to help so bad that they're giving

452
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: away houses, little tiny ones that you can trap out. Yeah,

453
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: super super awesome. Um. So go to the conservation page

454
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: at the meat Eater dot com, click on land Access

455
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: and submit a. The phones are ringing off the hook

456
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: over here. Okay, okay, get in lines right now, click

457
00:28:54,280 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: a submit to the Land Access Initiative and we want Yeah,

458
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: we want to find that that perfect thing where we

459
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: can jump in and help create more access to hunting

460
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: and fishing. Garrett's only about a couple of the ones

461
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: that are in there. We have, we have several very

462
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: good ways to spend money, I think, Um, you know,

463
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: we just just want to find like the perfect thing.

464
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: But there's we have an absolutely phenomenal project here in

465
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: the state of Montana and Northwest Montana that the Trust

466
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: Republic Lands is working on, which would be at a

467
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: system of ease months that would provide access for the

468
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: myriad of land of many uses activities from firewood cutting

469
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: to fishing to snowmobiling. In perpetuity, which is super cool

470
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: and attractive. There's some incredible projects that Ducks and Limited

471
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: is working on in in Iowa for instance, that are

472
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: it would be money well spam. So if you have

473
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: something that you just want to get active on, please

474
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: submit it to the mediator Land Access Initiative. I want

475
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: to give the dude to plug even though we're not

476
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: we haven't moved on yet. Naughty log homes k n

477
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: A U g h t Y naughty log homes. They

478
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: want to donate a log trapper's cabin. I can't remember

479
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: the dimensions of it. And they're I mean, they're donating

480
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: a log trapper's cabin to the to the auction House

481
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: of Oddities. They are one of a kind log home.

482
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: That's a really cool name. They're just saying, you see, Sean,

483
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: not sisters sister's organ donate the whole damn thing. That's cool. Yeah,

484
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: that's big. No, it's a great offer. Uh oh, Sean,

485
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: you're ready to lay out this. Uh about talking about

486
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: Delta Waterfowl, Yes, sir, yeah, uh and Cal can speak

487
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: to this too, but we are First Light is partnering

488
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: with Delta Waterfowl for Camo for conservation as a lot

489
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: of you probably well you've probably heard on the last

490
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: podcast and seeing on social media and all that that

491
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: first lights Waterfowl Pattern TYFA is out and a portion

492
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: of the sales from that are going to Delta Waterfowl UM,

493
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: which you know, I'm stoked about because I love Delta.

494
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: I've talked about Delta a lot in these Duck Reports

495
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: and they've been information with you on the Duck Reports. Yeah, yeah, there,

496
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: And I mean the big reason those guys love help

497
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: and so much is their duck hunters. I mean, they

498
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: call themselves the duck Hunters Organization, but they really are.

499
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: They are Their organization is about helping duck hunters. And

500
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: there's still research organization. They have their four pillars duck

501
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: production are three, habitat, conservation and research and education. Um.

502
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: But like their research and education stuff is really keyed

503
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: and focused on applicable science right ways that they can

504
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 1: actually um you know, benefit duck habitat, duck numbers, the

505
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: whole bit. So it's nice to be working with them

506
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: to go buy some TYFA, kick some money toward Delta.

507
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: We're just gonna make a donation to Delta two. Yeah, yeah,

508
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: I mean I think every duck hunter should be with

509
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,479
Speaker 1: what the two big duck hunting orgs have done for

510
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: water fowlers. Every duck hunter should be a member of

511
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: both anyway, So so Campbell for Conservation first Light right now,

512
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: prior to TYFA, if you bought a specter, anything in

513
00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: the specter camouflage pattern which is is our can mover

514
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: folks who like to hide in trees, a percentage of

515
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: every sale goes to NDA, which used to be q

516
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: d m A National Lines and now and NDA and

517
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: now it's just National Deer Lines. Uh. On the water

518
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: foul side of things, any thing in the type of patterning,

519
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: a percentage of that purchase goes to Delta water Fowl.

520
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: So you're gonna feel real good about buying some unparalleled

521
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: duck hunting camouflage and just stuff that's gonna keep you

522
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: warm and dry when you need to be warm and dry.

523
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,959
Speaker 1: But you're gonna feel doubly good knowing that that cash

524
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: is going to go make more ducks. And one of

525
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: the coolest things about Delta that they talked about all

526
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: the time is it was founded with the idea of

527
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: I want to replace times two or times three every

528
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: duck I take off the lance gate. And so you're

529
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: buying clothing that you're ideally going to go out and

530
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: remove some ducts from and some geese from the waters

531
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: and in airways of America. But with with that purchase,

532
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: you're gonna slide some money back to putting them back

533
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 1: out times two or three good? Good? Okay. We got

534
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: a guy rolled in from Alaska. So he said he

535
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: has this say he wants people to weigh in on this.

536
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: Just to give some background, I am in the military,

537
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: stationed in Alaska and work for a three letter organization

538
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: that I will omit from this email. Boy, that makes

539
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: you really start thinking, I'm starting to think of them,

540
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: ain't I r s? Anyways, recently this spring I was

541
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: successful in a brown bear hunt and have since updated

542
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: my Skype pro file of course on our classified computers

543
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: with a photo of me kneeling next to my bear pictures.

544
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: Very tasteful, not displaying any blood, gods, etcetera. Well, on Fridays,

545
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: he goes on to say, we use Skype to conduct

546
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: virtual meetings weekly to highlight mission successes for each work

547
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: center in the building. I am currently the highest ranking

548
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 1: enlisted person in my work center and am in charge

549
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: of the missions we conduct, so I was speaking on

550
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: my team's behalf and obviously my profile photo popped up,

551
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: indicating who is speaking. No video on these skype calls.

552
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 1: Shortly after the meeting, my three letters civilian boss came

553
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: down to talk to me about mission related stuff. When

554
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: he was pulled aside by another three letter civilian. She

555
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 1: instructed him that he needs to speak to his team

556
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: about displaying profile photos with dead animals and that it

557
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: is offensive to people. He spoke to me about this

558
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: instructed me not to change the profile as my photo

559
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: is not offensive and I am not displaying the bear

560
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: in a disrespectful way. My question is if this escalates

561
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 1: into something bigger down the road, do I stand my

562
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: ground and try to push back or do I simply

563
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: just give in and change it. He goes on to say,

564
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 1: in my opinion, I don't understand how this photo is

565
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: offensive when my profile photo for the last year has

566
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: been a photo of me holding a big silver salmon

567
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: I caught with my fly rod. At what, at one

568
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: point does a dead bear trump a dead fish? Is

569
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: that the anthropomorphizing of bears and not salmon. Meanwhile, we

570
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: all walk around and kyote brown suede leather boots. The

571
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: military is literally walking around with dead animals on our feet.

572
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 1: Half the civilians sit in luxury leather chairs at their desks.

573
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to figure out if it's something I

574
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: should stand my ground on or just be the bigger

575
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: person and change my profile. Now here's my take on it.

576
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 1: I have a take to after you. If there was

577
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: a rule, if there was a pre existing rule dictating

578
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 1: guidelines for your profile picture, and this broke a pre

579
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: existing profile picture guideline rule, then you should change your rule.

580
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: But if you're being singled out for this and nothing else,

581
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:28,439
Speaker 1: I would fight back on it. Yeah, my my take

582
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: is a little more broad like in scope than that.

583
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: You're in the military, which is purpose is to conduct violence,

584
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: yet we're like offended. I don't understand how people in

585
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: the military are offended by a dead animal in profile picture.

586
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,919
Speaker 1: But the whole point in the middle, if you don't

587
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: get like, culturally, why that would that that's surprising to me. Culturally,

588
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: it's surprising you well, and it's a little bit ironic

589
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: to think about an organization that exists for like violence.

590
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 1: I think all great points, but um, I would take

591
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: it down. I would put up something very very milk

592
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: toast that is mildly appealing to everyone who sees it.

593
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: If it's the three letter organization we're talking about, um,

594
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: we're talking about regime changes. We're talking about the ability

595
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: to impact gross national product of any country on the planet.

596
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: We're talking about zero dark thirty. You're an enlisted man,

597
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: change your profile picks not worth its like this bigger

598
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 1: fish to fry. Yeah, they're they're the organization fry the fish,

599
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 1: bigger bear, bigger bear meat to fry. Yeah, here's why

600
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 1: I think you're wrong, cal Um. That was so matter

601
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: of fact. I don't think this is an issue of

602
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: like compliance. I don't think it's like an issue of rules,

603
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: like I think this is kind of semantics and like

604
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 1: one of the things we deal with a lot on

605
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: this podcast when we bring up is like different predator

606
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: hunting getting closed down for no reason at all all

607
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: over the place, And I feel like, uh, one of

608
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: our jobs is that normalize it a little bit, right, Like,

609
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: so it's not just so you know, like toxic whenever

610
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: you do see it. I feel like folding on something

611
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: like this, taking down the picture or not being able

612
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,720
Speaker 1: to embrace something that's a huge part of your life.

613
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: It detracts from the normalization of something that then we

614
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 1: come on here and we tell people like, no, it's

615
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: a thing that people do and should be respected. And

616
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: there's a key in the language used here is the

617
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 1: individuals claiming not that it violates protocol or not that

618
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: it violates picture rules, They said it is offensive. And

619
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: I think that allowing people just to run around really

620
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: nearly declaring yeah, like to declaring something that might offend

621
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 1: me as being categorically offensive, are they is running rampant.

622
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 1: I mean, like you can declare people things that the

623
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: people would never even agree with, so to say, like

624
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: it's offensive, Like, let's let's let's be clear. You find

625
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: it offensive, but there are probably things about you it

626
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: would be deeply offensive to me. You have a picture

627
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: of your third wife on your profile picture. That's offensive

628
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: to me. Why why have you been married three times?

629
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: I find that very offensive? Take that down. No one

630
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: would ever ask that of somebody, right, Or like I

631
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: see that you have a picture of yourself, um not

632
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: at church on Sunday, that's deeply offensive to me. Yeah,

633
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: you can make this encrypted channel. That's that's like a

634
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: language thing. That's people stating as fact. So it's used

635
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: to use the eye word everybody. But that's my point.

636
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,359
Speaker 1: Cal is like, it is insane that the people who

637
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: exist to swap out dick to waters are getting offended

638
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: by a bear picture. I think we're obviously I mean

639
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 1: your computer, cow oh, because I'm I'm well read up

640
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: on this crab situation, but you weren't on the other situation.

641
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: I was working on some other things from the crab

642
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: come for everybody. I want to tee up the next

643
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 1: this next segment. If there's one thing the media loves,

644
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: not TV, but there's one thing newspapers and magazines love,

645
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: it is a story about someone utilizing an invasive species

646
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,959
Speaker 1: as a for something or another. Hit it cow, Yes,

647
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: that I mean, that's that's a great There's a good

648
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: couple of question marks in this story. So this distilling

649
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: company in conjunction, I guess I'm not all that right

650
00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 1: up on this anyway. He's quietly quietly opening I could

651
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: peer back up. So there's this green crab, this invasive

652
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: green crab. They came over in the eighteen hundreds, we think,

653
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 1: in the ballast of boats. Never heard of this crab

654
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: and the things years of being here. When you do

655
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,919
Speaker 1: hear about it, though, they're like, they are horrible. They're

656
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: horribly destructive. On Mola's they eat clams and and muscles

657
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, so obviously it's dipping into some

658
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: other folks pocket books there. They are prolific and they're

659
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: they're an edible crab, but they're so small the yield

660
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: is really bad. So if you ever gone to a

661
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: crab house and started picking crabs, eventually you might get

662
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: sick of picking crabs. And that's why folks aren't eating

663
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: a lot of these green crabs. Well, in this case,

664
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: New Hampshire Distilling took up the problem and turned and

665
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: this is where I really had. Here's here's what I

666
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: don't like the language I'm worth distilling. It's not taking

667
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,760
Speaker 1: up the problem. Like it's not taking up the problem capitalizing.

668
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: I mean it's like, okay, so I mean I thought,

669
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: it's what do you mean by that? It's not taking

670
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: up the problem. It would be like if I started

671
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: eating let's say I eat dandelion salads. He took up

672
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: the problems dandelions. He's been eating a dandelion salad at night.

673
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:31,479
Speaker 1: But take up the problem of dandelions, or might eating

674
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: a dandelion salad? I get what you mean anyway. Um,

675
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 1: they started with the bourbon base and then they added

676
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: in this green crab stock are along with like bass

677
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: seasoning and kind of classic crab stuff. And what you

678
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 1: end up with is what they call something better than um.

679
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: What the hell is the fireball? But it doesn't know

680
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: now I'm not interested before. I can't even smell fireball,

681
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: crab trapper green crab flavored whiskey. Wait, where does it

682
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: say that that's the comparison? Fireball is nasty? Just eat

683
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 1: a stick of like Big Red. I was just back

684
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 1: at my hometown. I went to my hometown gas station,

685
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: and the guy in front of me, which made me

686
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 1: feel so much like I was in my hometown. The

687
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: guy in from me bought a fistful a lotto tickets

688
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: and then asked for a bottle of fireball, and they

689
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: asked if he wanted it chilled or room town, and

690
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: he was able to walk out. He's able to walk

691
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,240
Speaker 1: out with a fistball lot of tickets in a cold

692
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 1: bottle of fireball. I can go cup. I can't even

693
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: stomach drinking that in the summertime either it's like maybe

694
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: in january ice fishing. But there's a there. It still

695
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: is a bar called do drop you outside of West

696
00:44:55,320 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: Glacier and they did off, you know, off say a liquor,

697
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 1: so you could buy a bottle of liquor there. And

698
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: this is the only place that's ever happened to me.

699
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 1: But if you go in there and buy a bottle

700
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: of liquor at the bar, they say, would you like

701
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: cups and ice with that? Not? In addition to have

702
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: you been on the on the kaibab right there in

703
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,760
Speaker 1: fre Donia you come down the hill off the Kaibab

704
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: plateau and it's the center of the universe. Judd otto, guns,

705
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: m o lotto and beer. Okay, So there is a

706
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: good snippet here on on the green crab. They are

707
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: probably one of the most successful invasive species that we

708
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 1: have in North America, at least in the marine world.

709
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: They can eat about forty muscles a day, just one crab.

710
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 1: Each bottle has a pound of green crabs. And that's impressive.

711
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 1: That is impressive, and in my immediate d I sent

712
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: this to some folks in the in the culinary world

713
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 1: because I to understand if there's what is the demand

714
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: for like a good crab stock, so you know, you

715
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 1: you don't go through the worry of picking everybody, just

716
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: turn it all into a giant bats and crabstock. If

717
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 1: there would be like a you know, canned crab stock

718
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: type of market, I imagine there is, and that seems

719
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: a hell of a lot better way to go than

720
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: making it into something better than I wonder what the

721
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 1: hangovers are like, Like you got feeling crabby, broa wake

722
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: up in the morning, feel like you're rolling on a boat. Yeah,

723
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: except for your walking sideways everywhere you go. We probably

724
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 1: can't get this here in Montana if anyone at tam

725
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 1: tam Worth Distilling wants to send us a bottle at mediator,

726
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: uh A marine Bio just goes on to say, like,

727
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 1: you know, it's unlikely that this whiskey, this whiskey bottle

728
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 1: and enterprise is gonna have a serious impact. But she says,

729
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: someone goes on to point out, I'm not reading it carefully.

730
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: Know who points out? They go on to point out,

731
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: if you factor in producing fishing bait with green crabs,

732
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 1: whiskey with green crabs, fish sauce of green crabs, and

733
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: just more and more incentivize the use um. It could

734
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: be good. You know, one of one of the invasives

735
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 1: that I felt that you could most like kind of

736
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: get after in a way that felt productive is shooting

737
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: lion fish. Yeah, because you go like in the Bahamas,

738
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: we just ran a boat and go out and cruise

739
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 1: for coral heads and it's just sand, sand, sand sand,

740
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 1: and then there's coral heads. You've see him from million

741
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: miles away on a sunny day and you go to

742
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 1: a coral head and every coral head to go to

743
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,919
Speaker 1: the be like o lion fish or to lion fish.

744
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: They're easy to get. They're like they just stand the ground,

745
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: like they don't it's not in their mind to get away.

746
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: They stand the ground, and so you shoot them. And

747
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: he'd be like, this coral head is free of lion fish.

748
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 1: And then you move on to the next one and

749
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:54,760
Speaker 1: shoot those, move on the next one and shoot those.

750
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: And it seemed like guy, he seems to be able

751
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: to kill them all. But man, they haven't gotten that

752
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: problem solved yet. The incentivize that. That's when Steve started

753
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: the intro to this segment here he is correct, like

754
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: we love talking about like good uses for these invasives.

755
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: And the one that they've gotten the most use out of,

756
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: by and large, of something that we see as a

757
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: real problem. Or it would be the Asian carp species.

758
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 1: And so there's some school, some collegiate school programs that

759
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: their culinary programs utilize you know, several thousand pounds of

760
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: fish every year, UM in their their meal halls, and

761
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 1: they're making actual, you know, tasty stuff. But then in Kentucky, Tennessee, Ohio,

762
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 1: there's some actual per pound incentivized fisheries and and processing

763
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: facilities for these fish where they've actually there's enough incentive

764
00:48:52,320 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: government incentive that folks who commercially harvest catfish or buff

765
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: flow or paddlefish do they call spoonbill out there um

766
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: can switch over net sizes and start targeting specifically the

767
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 1: Asian carp, which there are some food markets for, and

768
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: there's some fertilizer markets for and stuff like that. Uh.

769
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: And it's definitely something that we we need to get

770
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 1: ahold of, which is why you know, crabby whiskey, get

771
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: some get some headlines, and it says that there is no,

772
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:37,879
Speaker 1: uh no real market around green crabs. So if something

773
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 1: got started, it would be the first ever. Uh, I'm

774
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:47,280
Speaker 1: gonna give you some very dated insight into the carp problem,

775
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: the Asian carp problem, and differentiating it from the common

776
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: European carp which fast of our waters, many of our waters.

777
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: I spent some days with a guy that was a

778
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: commercial netter okay, um. He was doing allow stuff that

779
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:04,720
Speaker 1: would wind out. He was catching a lot of those carpon.

780
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 1: His primary buyer was using them for making a filter fish,

781
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: so like canned fish preparation. And they're very concerned in

782
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: those waterways about not catching like the native fish. I'll

783
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 1: add that we caught a beaver, but that's just a

784
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 1: side note. And so they'd regulate mesh size, okay. And

785
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 1: he had to use whatever like an eight inch mash

786
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 1: or something like a huge mesh that way all the

787
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:33,839
Speaker 1: bass right, like large moths, bluegills, crop ease, everything can

788
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: get through the mesh. But it was a big enough

789
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 1: mesh you kept it really catch a really big carp.

790
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: And he said you could go into a stretch. The

791
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 1: commercial guys could go into a big stretch of river

792
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,919
Speaker 1: with that high, that big mesh netting and really get

793
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 1: it where you're not catching carp anymore. Like you catch them.

794
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: It's it's just very the the way they use these

795
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 1: saints very effective. Oh, after they come through, you're not

796
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: catching they can work an area. Let's say you use

797
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: an eight inch man, you can work an area with

798
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: an eight inch mesh. Where you're like, we're does not

799
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 1: catching them like we did, we must be having a

800
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 1: positive impact. But then researches will point out the bio

801
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 1: mass of the cart doesn't change, like the poundage per

802
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 1: mile of carpon these stretches doesn't change. It's just not

803
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: comprised of big ones, right, And so they'd be like,

804
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: we need to be able to use smaller mesh. We

805
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 1: need to be able to use do a six inch mesh.

806
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 1: And then people be like, well, you know it could

807
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 1: have ramifications for bass or whatever, and they use a

808
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: sitien and then you kick ass with the new mesh

809
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:40,720
Speaker 1: and then you're catch slows. Meanwhile, per mile same pounded

810
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: of cart, which which is why you see it's carrying capacity. Right.

811
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: In this conversation around carbon specifically, you see a lot

812
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: of prevention in the form of how do we get

813
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: these fish to not spawn where you see like those

814
00:51:55,640 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: bubble curtains and narrators and stuff that try to divert

815
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: fish from areas where they would spawn. Yeah, it's a

816
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: hell of it. I visited that electrical barrier on Lake Michigan.

817
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: We're trying to keep him from entering the Great Lakes.

818
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's still up and running or not.

819
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:13,879
Speaker 1: A guy when out when I was sawing the people

820
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 1: on that cart problem, he was saying like, I was like,

821
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: what would actually fix the thing? And he said, what

822
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: would actually fix the thing? And we'd never use it

823
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: or be able to use it, and you wouldn't have

824
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 1: public appetite for it because he goes. I could imagine

825
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 1: there's gotta be some kind of virus or something that's particular.

826
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 1: But who's gonna be the guy that pours out of

827
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 1: the you know, who wants to play with the virus?

828
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: Like he's like like path They're like there's They're like,

829
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: if you really like there's maybe some pathogen or controlled

830
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: studies say that nothing, nothing will go wrong, nothing bad

831
00:52:49,239 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 1: app alright, Sean, we're gonna segue into raptors, uh, I

832
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 1: mean lead ammunition yep. And we're gonna kick it off

833
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 1: with Shawn's duck report. Got anything else to shape. You

834
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: bet you had mentioned I don't know, a month ago

835
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 1: or something, do a duck report, arm do a duck

836
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: report on lead points, the lead shot band, what led

837
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 1: up to it, whether it was successful. So, Chris, if

838
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: I get something wrong here, which I'm pretty sure I

839
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 1: don't have anything wrong, You're gonna have to correct me

840
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 1: because this comes from your world. Really, I was raised

841
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,479
Speaker 1: at a time, o't Do you remember what year happened? Yeah,

842
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: they tried several times, but when it ultimately happened was

843
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 1: because you know, it's interesting, My first legal duck season

844
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: was in six and there were people that were not

845
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: duck hunting. They were they were like quitting duck hunting

846
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 1: out of protest. Yeah, and that that some of them stuck,

847
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: some of them just never came back, which is wild. Okay,

848
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 1: So the lead shot ban um was a gradual crescendo.

849
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: Late eighteen hundreds there started being reports of lead poisoning

850
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 1: and waterfowl late eighteen hundreds. Yeah, they had a mass

851
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: kill because guys like me and Spencer with them punt guns. Yeah. Well,

852
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 1: it was mostly like commercial market areas that were punt

853
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: gunning whole lakes um Texas seventy four they really started

854
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 1: reporting it, and then in the early nineteen hundreds it

855
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 1: turned into mass die offs because smoking wasn't even bad

856
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: for you back then. It's just surprising. I don't need

857
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,439
Speaker 1: to be glue about. It's just surprising that at that

858
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 1: time there was like the level of sophistication to take

859
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: dead waterfowl and determine cause of death right and related

860
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 1: to a related to a heavy metal and some of

861
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: them weren't even making the correlation necessarily right away. They

862
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: were like, there's a bunch of dead ducks here, and

863
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 1: then they do a knee cropsy and find they just

864
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:23,240
Speaker 1: also happened to have letting their gizzards go out, and

865
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,359
Speaker 1: that's that's really where it started. Um, then you get

866
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 1: into the early nineteen hundreds and they started having like

867
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 1: mass kills, um hundreds and hundreds of birds on a

868
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:40,800
Speaker 1: single body water repeatedly seasonally. Yeah, and yeah, it definitely

869
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: kept going faster and faster and more and more. Uh am,

870
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: I correctness that the issue with ducks is that ducks

871
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: are as they gather grit for their gizzard, they are

872
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: finding lead shot and ingesting the lead and like ingesting

873
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: the lead for grit for their gizzard. This isn't that

874
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 1: they're all carrying around stray pellets. Well, it's no, it's

875
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: not from It's definitely not from wounder wounded, hunter wound.

876
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 1: It's it's mostly ingestion. They're like picking they see something like, oh,

877
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 1: that makes a piece of great piece of grit from

878
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: my crop. Yeah. And I mean they're getting it in

879
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:27,959
Speaker 1: both their gizzard and their stomach. It's not like just

880
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: as they're picking up while they feed. They're picking it

881
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: up while they feed. And people think, oh, how are

882
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: they picking up that tiny little pellet in this big

883
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 1: lace home? But it has it doesn't get to their

884
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 1: stomach without going through their gizzard. Well what I'm what

885
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: I mean is like that they're finding the lead shot

886
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 1: in both places. It's not just poisoning them in the gizzard,

887
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,919
Speaker 1: it'll pay. It's passing intact, yeah, and into the gut.

888
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of comparison photos that the Fish

889
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,840
Speaker 1: and Wildlife Service had that shows like a normal ducks,

890
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:03,439
Speaker 1: how healthy stomach and healthy gizzard to uh a lead

891
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: poison one. Um. But you know, one of the big

892
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,320
Speaker 1: pushbacks from hunter and I did not realize how controversial

893
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 1: this was until I started really digging. And see this

894
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 1: was interpreted by a lot of outdoorsman as a anti hunter,

895
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: anti Second Amendment government overreach movement. Was not positioned as that.

896
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: The hunter thought that's what it was, right, um. But

897
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 1: and you know one of their big arguments was how

898
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: is a duck picking up stray pellets? You know they're tiny,

899
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 1: a little pellet because I've never seen it, because right, right,

900
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 1: But well that's We've had a lot of people right

901
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 1: in and be like I have checked every stomach and

902
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 1: every gizzet of every duck and they killed law ducstion,

903
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 1: like and I found a pellet mm hm. So you

904
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 1: know it's anecdotable, but we hear that, right right, yeah. Um,

905
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: but when you start breaking down like how much leads

906
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 1: being dispersed on the environment, you know there's half pounds.

907
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 1: So the average back then was a half pound of

908
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 1: shot being you know, shot by a hunter per bird bagged,

909
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 1: which comes out to four hundred pellets of number six lead.

910
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: And you know that's per bird you shoot. Overall, their

911
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 1: estimate was tons of lead shot being put into wetlands

912
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: a year by waterfowl hunters. And there was that that

913
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 1: was in the fifties. I think, um, this is got

914
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 1: The guy that did this big study on this was

915
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 1: a guy named Frank Bell Rose and he was the

916
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 1: one that really brought it into like we got to

917
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 1: do something about this. We need a management plan about

918
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: lead shot. And that was in nineteen Yeah, like one

919
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: of these things you have here. In one Lake, Michigan

920
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 1: blue bill die off, ten stomachs were examined that held

921
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 1: any were from forty eight lead pellets per bird. But

922
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that this guy was cooking the books.

923
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: Boo boom. People are still hunting ducks. Yeah, but there's

924
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 1: not like why is the why are the crops and

925
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,400
Speaker 1: stomach is not full of shot? I think one thing

926
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 1: that would be really interesting to look at here would

927
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: be your your hunter distribution, right like in methods of

928
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: hunting during this study time, because I do have to

929
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: wonder if there's higher concentrations on certain Martia's bodies of

930
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: water than than we could have, how that distribution of

931
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: actual hunting activity varies from then until today. Well, Sean

932
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 1: hit him with that little detail you got near that

933
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 1: little detail about a heavily hunted wetlands. Yeah, so and

934
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: and that was a big part of it. You know.

935
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 1: The argument is now a lot of that lead shot

936
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 1: has been covered up by sediment because that So they

937
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 1: did a bunch of sampling of major wetland areas that

938
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:08,800
Speaker 1: were like huge waterfowl hunting destinations, and they found some

939
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: of those to have over a hundred thousand pellets per

940
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 1: acre in the top three inches of the bottom sentiment,

941
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 1: which is so man, see Sean did a good job,

942
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 1: because he's not that I'm looking in here, Okay. From

943
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty eight to nineteen fifty four, they examined thirty

944
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 1: six thousand gizzards six point six percent. Between nineteen thirty

945
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 1: eight nineteen fifty four, thirty six sample size of thirty

946
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 1: six thousand gizzards six point six p ingestion right had

947
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:49,440
Speaker 1: led in them with mallards seven. So there you go,

948
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: go kill a hundred. So here's the tests for someone,

949
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 1: now who someone who's like going to be like bullshit it, man,

950
01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: get a hundred ducks, especially if you hunt like a

951
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 1: social hold, like a refew, like like you hunt a

952
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 1: place that gets hunted, Go to a place it gets hunted.

953
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 1: Shoot a hundred docks and see if you find seven

954
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 1: percent to gotta steal or bismuth, pellet or gut be

955
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 1: interesting if if it's constant through time, yeah yeah, and

956
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 1: so okay. So where where it kind of like really

957
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 1: got to the point of people having to do something

958
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 1: about it was these die offs started becoming highly visible.

959
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 1: Right you had TV and UM one that like was

960
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 1: right perfect at the kind of the right time in

961
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 1: the seventies when this was getting talked about more and more,

962
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 1: and I think it was the National Wildlife Federation had

963
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 1: already started trying to push for a lead ban. Fish

964
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 1: and Wildlife Service wanted a lead ban, but they couldn't

965
01:01:54,520 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 1: get it done. Um Lake Puckaway, Wisconsin. They end up

966
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 1: with like over three thousand geese dead that we're winnering there.

967
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: And the what ultimately what they said happened was that

968
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:12,040
Speaker 1: these geese winnered on a part of the lake that

969
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:16,960
Speaker 1: was shallow and had a lot of hunter um hunter use.

970
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 1: And what year was this, m I can't remember exactly

971
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 1: what year that was. It was either of the late

972
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 1: seventies or early eighties, but it was right dear in

973
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: the peak of the discussions. So the debate was heating up,

974
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 1: and then there's all of a a sudden on TV. You

975
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 1: know that a bunch of volunteers collecting thousands of dead geese,

976
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: three thousand dead geese in a lake that had a

977
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 1: eighteen thousand lead pellets per acre and three inches top

978
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 1: three inches just so wild. It's a lot of dead geese.

979
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 1: I'm trying to picture, like, um, an acre's good sized,

980
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 1: chunker grown. I'd think to see a density map, like

981
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 1: if you did a one hand, if you took your

982
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 1: two hands and did a scoop of muck, you're probably

983
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 1: grabbing one. And I'm sure yeah, and I'm sure it

984
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 1: would probably be there would be something about how it

985
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 1: lays out right, There would be areas probably with a

986
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: lot of higher density just by how someone hunts the

987
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 1: area or whatnot. Um, But you know, yeah, prevailing wind

988
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 1: right just like I mean, just like if you're someone

989
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 1: who knows where to look on an old pond for arrowheads,

990
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 1: for bird points, it oftentimes has a lot to do

991
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:39,080
Speaker 1: with the prevailing wind in the area. Find your shotgun

992
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: pellets around that same spot too. So But you know,

993
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 1: bell Rose's point was not that these mass die offs

994
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 1: are like a population threat. It's that there's so many

995
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 1: other factors that come in Once waterfowl start dying from

996
01:03:54,200 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: lead poisoning um, for example, take some two weeks to die,

997
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 1: they start getting weird, isolating themselves, hiding in the weeds,

998
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: making themselves more susceptible to predators. In addition to that,

999
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 1: then you have you know, he he even pointed to

1000
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:18,960
Speaker 1: like you can't even really count or no exactly how

1001
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 1: many baculi is um outbreaks, for example are because a

1002
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 1: lead poison duck dies and then you end up with

1003
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 1: a botulism outbreak because well just ultimately, if the more

1004
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 1: you know, the more you have waterfowl dyeing in random places,

1005
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 1: increased abundance of carrying, okay, overloading the system where scavengers

1006
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:45,960
Speaker 1: are cleaning it up. There's great examples about that, but

1007
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 1: different and uh So, they tried to try to ban

1008
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 1: lead in seventy six. The Stevens Amendment blocked it, kicked

1009
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 1: that back to the States, and then that's where raptors

1010
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 1: came in and bald eagles in what happen, Well, they

1011
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:12,560
Speaker 1: had sixty bald eagles from nineteen eighty to ninety five

1012
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:18,520
Speaker 1: died from lead poisoning, and the National Wildlife Federation was

1013
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 1: um sued, fish and Wildlife Service for a ban on

1014
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 1: lead shot, referencing bald eagle deaths, and they actually blocked

1015
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 1: this suit because then fishing once that suit was like happening.

1016
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:39,160
Speaker 1: Fish and Wildlife Service said, okay, well band lead, so

1017
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 1: this court case doesn't happen. The National Wildlife Federation led

1018
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:50,920
Speaker 1: the suit, yep, and it never it got dismissed. But

1019
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 1: I got that because bald eagles at that time, we're

1020
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 1: in e s A. They were in dangerous that same

1021
01:05:56,160 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 1: year they got kicked too, threatened I think, But yeah,

1022
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 1: they were on the essay still. And of course why

1023
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 1: do people care because the replacement was steel shot. It

1024
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 1: didn't work as good as lead shot. Yeah that's what

1025
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 1: people said, right, but um, okay that steel shot. There's

1026
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 1: stuff now that works phenomenally well. But I think, like

1027
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:27,400
Speaker 1: any you know, you had to switch to bigger pellets, right,

1028
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:29,920
Speaker 1: so you you used to use sixes and leads and

1029
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 1: also using twos and fours. So you're throwing I want

1030
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 1: to say, less lead out there, less material out there.

1031
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 1: You're throwing out less material per shot with with a

1032
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:45,240
Speaker 1: smaller number of lethal things flying towards the target in

1033
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:49,439
Speaker 1: their Yeah, this is it, just this is a whole

1034
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 1: another Duck report though, Um, it's talking about like the

1035
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:58,800
Speaker 1: steel shot lethality table and all the work Tom Roster

1036
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 1: did going in you showing that steel is far more

1037
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 1: effective than it gets credit for, well in the heart

1038
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:09,720
Speaker 1: and wounding loss and harvest rates. Actually, while they did

1039
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 1: decline initially after the ban, the the what they posited

1040
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:17,960
Speaker 1: was based on their observations is as hunters learned how

1041
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 1: to use the new tool, wounding loss actually was less

1042
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 1: with steel than it was because they're like, I can't

1043
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:33,880
Speaker 1: take that hill Mary anymore. Yeah, And a big part

1044
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 1: of that is, you know, lead and steel shoot differently.

1045
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:46,160
Speaker 1: See everything about how you shoot as a shooter is different. Um,

1046
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:48,120
Speaker 1: and it was not you know, like one of the

1047
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 1: things that when people talk about Pittman Robert's act, it

1048
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 1: really likes to point out that people were like really

1049
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 1: excited about it. Hunters wanted it right when they don't

1050
01:07:56,560 --> 01:08:00,600
Speaker 1: maybe some don't now according to what the Clyde and

1051
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 1: Georgia so, but it's it's like part of the part

1052
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:09,640
Speaker 1: of the story of Pittman Robertson and the excise tax

1053
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 1: and ammunition that it was brought by the rod and

1054
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 1: gun clubs of America like they wanted this, They willingly

1055
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 1: did this right, and um, this was not we lose

1056
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 1: sight of it now. But this was not a popular

1057
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 1: thing now. I mean, there was definitely some waterfowl hunters there,

1058
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 1: you know, there was appetite for it with some, but

1059
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 1: not everybody, not even close. Um, some people welcomed it

1060
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:39,040
Speaker 1: and didn't want I didn't want to see lead poisoning

1061
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 1: and waterfowl and and you know, bought in on the

1062
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:47,679
Speaker 1: Bell Rose study and seeing how how bad lead shot

1063
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 1: could be on waterfowl numbers. But also there was a

1064
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:53,160
Speaker 1: lot of people that just don't want to quit shooting

1065
01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:55,360
Speaker 1: Grandpa's gun with the fixed full choke and the thirty

1066
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 1: inch barrel. Right, Oh, you know, real quick, tell me

1067
01:08:58,320 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 1: about the guy that tell us the story out, the

1068
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 1: guy you know that was jailed for shooting a red tail. Well,

1069
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:06,840
Speaker 1: hold on, I think that Sean's point there is is

1070
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 1: a great one that doesn't get brought up hardly at all,

1071
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:14,760
Speaker 1: is the fact that not only were you forced to

1072
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 1: use a different ammunition, there is a ton of guns

1073
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 1: in use, like heavily in use that could not shoot steel,

1074
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:26,640
Speaker 1: couldn't shoot a pellet. That that's hard too. Hard on

1075
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 1: the barrel at that time, at that time because the

1076
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 1: loads hadn't been developed. I mean, you look at what

1077
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: they've done in Europe in the last ten years. They

1078
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:36,320
Speaker 1: are shooting steel out of parkers and parties, but they're

1079
01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:39,839
Speaker 1: adjusting the loads. So by adjusting the loads and decreasing

1080
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:42,720
Speaker 1: the pressures, you can still you It's not that you

1081
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:45,120
Speaker 1: can't shoot them. You can't shoot the loads that they

1082
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:47,920
Speaker 1: had then. Well, I mean here in America is bigger

1083
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:55,680
Speaker 1: is better? Okay, two and a half loadger better? Thing

1084
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 1: is uh? I was talking to uh, a guy called

1085
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:01,960
Speaker 1: the Jazz Doctor, and we're talking about I was having

1086
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:06,679
Speaker 1: a problem matching a jet outboard to a flat bottom boat.

1087
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:10,639
Speaker 1: You remember my whole trial Tralation and I one one

1088
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:13,240
Speaker 1: day it was entertaining over the phone with the jet Doctor,

1089
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:16,680
Speaker 1: the idea that perhaps there's like, is it perhaps too

1090
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:20,000
Speaker 1: much engine for the boat? And he said, I've been

1091
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:22,720
Speaker 1: in this business forty years. I've never had a guy

1092
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:24,160
Speaker 1: come to me and tell me he wants he needs

1093
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:29,639
Speaker 1: a smaller motor. Yeah. Now you see boats with four

1094
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:33,880
Speaker 1: hundred horsepower racing motors on them. Unbelievable. All right, talk

1095
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:37,600
Speaker 1: about the redtail dude, real quick um or slow, I

1096
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:41,200
Speaker 1: don't care. Oh, there's not much to it. I was

1097
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 1: a little bit wrong on that. It was not one

1098
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 1: red tail. It was one. It was it was one

1099
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:54,840
Speaker 1: red tail with a game warden with him, was the problem. Yeah,

1100
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:59,479
Speaker 1: so he uh he was working at a pheasant hunting farm,

1101
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 1: you know, in South Dakota, like a lot of people do,

1102
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:05,400
Speaker 1: and was shooting red tails while he was out guiding

1103
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:13,280
Speaker 1: pheasants because you know, pheasant honors eight red tales and uh,

1104
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:15,120
Speaker 1: well that's a that's a great you know what I

1105
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 1: mean though, like you'll hear stories. I would hear stories

1106
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:21,879
Speaker 1: from guys like I would hear stories. Got the generation

1107
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 1: prior to me would be like if you hunt on

1108
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:26,360
Speaker 1: so and soals farm, he gets mad if you don't

1109
01:11:26,360 --> 01:11:29,040
Speaker 1: shoot the red tails, right, which is like a I'm

1110
01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:31,040
Speaker 1: sure it's still out there. But I think that there

1111
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:34,040
Speaker 1: was a time when well he used to pay bounties

1112
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:35,560
Speaker 1: on him, right, there was a time when it was

1113
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:37,400
Speaker 1: like you were doing the right thing for the planet

1114
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:42,080
Speaker 1: by killing every raptor you saw, because chicken farmers would

1115
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:46,920
Speaker 1: thank you, you know whatever, And uh yeah, so I

1116
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:51,000
Speaker 1: don't I don't know exactly how many he shot, but

1117
01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:55,439
Speaker 1: he did get six months federal prison time plus three

1118
01:11:55,439 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 1: months probation plus or no not three months house or

1119
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:04,320
Speaker 1: plus four years probation. Big fine, Yeah we're talking about this.

1120
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:05,760
Speaker 1: You could he could have killed his wife and landed

1121
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:09,760
Speaker 1: in jail for last time. Yeah, I mean he did some,

1122
01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 1: He did some. I mean that's serious time. Six months.

1123
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:19,680
Speaker 1: What are you in here for? Shot a hawk with

1124
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:22,360
Speaker 1: a game warden? And I think what they really got

1125
01:12:22,439 --> 01:12:26,519
Speaker 1: him on was after he shot it, he then picked

1126
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:29,000
Speaker 1: it up, moved it and buried it, Which is like

1127
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:32,639
Speaker 1: even on top of all that, on top of all

1128
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:39,559
Speaker 1: that loss is hunting privileges four years Okay, Well, the

1129
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:41,599
Speaker 1: sad thing is for a lot of those things there

1130
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:45,760
Speaker 1: there are depredation permits for instances. You know, I'm not

1131
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 1: saying that they're justifying the killing of raptors, but where

1132
01:12:49,320 --> 01:12:53,720
Speaker 1: it does you know, impact an individual's livelihood, there there

1133
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:56,880
Speaker 1: are ways that for that to be managed. But to

1134
01:12:57,360 --> 01:13:01,840
Speaker 1: say loosely quote unquote managed is you know, that's different

1135
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:04,439
Speaker 1: than wanton shooting that where I grew up to the

1136
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 1: same thing. You go out there and every third telephone

1137
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:11,400
Speaker 1: pole's got a red tail at it. M right, man,

1138
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:16,559
Speaker 1: but that's changed in my lifetime. That's changed drastically. So yeah, okay,

1139
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:20,280
Speaker 1: give me your spiel on I don't want don't deliver

1140
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 1: it like a spiel all right, he never does, he wanted.

1141
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:26,280
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think where it's talking to the microphone. Okay,

1142
01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:30,720
Speaker 1: all right, I can hear myself breathing. I didn't. I

1143
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:33,599
Speaker 1: want to. I want to. Let let's approach it this way,

1144
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:39,240
Speaker 1: all right. When people are talking about um, when people

1145
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:44,559
Speaker 1: are talking about leading the environment today from hunters and shooters, Okay,

1146
01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:49,640
Speaker 1: there is a widespread idea that this has something to

1147
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:55,479
Speaker 1: do with the California condo. Oh god, that's okay, that's

1148
01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 1: the lead in. Raise your hand. I'm trying to find

1149
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:01,720
Speaker 1: an avenue. Raise your hand if you feel that if

1150
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:05,000
Speaker 1: you're made aware of the issue years ago in relation

1151
01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:09,680
Speaker 1: to the California condor Okay, everybody, okay, even Chris Races.

1152
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:20,759
Speaker 1: I'm relatively new. No, okay, well, yes, Unfortunately, unfortunately people

1153
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 1: think that this lad issue lad lead from hunting or

1154
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:28,559
Speaker 1: the otherwise shooting of animals, whether it's depredation, whatever you want,

1155
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:33,640
Speaker 1: whichever category it's it's assumed that it's only a problem

1156
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:37,839
Speaker 1: because of the condor, and that's that was people's avenue

1157
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:42,280
Speaker 1: to introduction, absolutely, and and from a scientific perspective, because

1158
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 1: we were focused on the condor because it was a

1159
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:48,800
Speaker 1: species at such heightened level of endangerment, only twenty two

1160
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:51,240
Speaker 1: birds left, and trying to figure out what was going

1161
01:14:51,280 --> 01:14:54,040
Speaker 1: on with them and saving them from extinction, not just

1162
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:57,040
Speaker 1: for the sake of saving them, but for understanding what

1163
01:14:57,160 --> 01:15:00,360
Speaker 1: the hell is going on because the condor could you

1164
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 1: could argue that the condor has been on the road

1165
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:05,800
Speaker 1: to extinction since well before the end of the last

1166
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:08,760
Speaker 1: ice age, right, that's a that's a point I hear

1167
01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:12,599
Speaker 1: that with Well, you'll get into it, like with with

1168
01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:16,000
Speaker 1: the mega fauna extinctions o that stuff. Yeah, and the

1169
01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:19,040
Speaker 1: range reduction that was observed based on the recovery of

1170
01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:21,360
Speaker 1: of fossilized remains and all that stuff. That's that's what

1171
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:23,759
Speaker 1: we use as inference. We don't know that's what happened.

1172
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:27,000
Speaker 1: We just have inference that there was a tremendous range reduction.

1173
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:31,959
Speaker 1: Condor bones have been found in Florida, Upstate, New York, Texas, Arizona,

1174
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:36,280
Speaker 1: New Mexico, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, every all over the place.

1175
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:41,160
Speaker 1: But that's a ubiquitous bird. Well, it was widespread. And

1176
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:43,880
Speaker 1: when you as you come to know more about the condor,

1177
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:46,080
Speaker 1: and this is the key. As you come to know

1178
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:49,120
Speaker 1: more about the condor, you come to know more about

1179
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:53,040
Speaker 1: the fact that they can fly states away in a

1180
01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:55,360
Speaker 1: couple of days, They can fly up to six hundred

1181
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:57,080
Speaker 1: miles in a couple of days, and then by the

1182
01:15:57,080 --> 01:15:59,360
Speaker 1: time we biologists get up there to go find out

1183
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:01,400
Speaker 1: what the hell it's do and it's on its way back.

1184
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,919
Speaker 1: So that that then tells you it's not that condors

1185
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:07,160
Speaker 1: were so dense they were all across the US. Is

1186
01:16:07,439 --> 01:16:10,040
Speaker 1: they had the ability to travel widely, and of course

1187
01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:13,400
Speaker 1: it would be seasonal based on all their their biology.

1188
01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:17,080
Speaker 1: Learning about the natural history of a species, a single species,

1189
01:16:17,439 --> 01:16:20,200
Speaker 1: anytime you study it to the level we've studied condors,

1190
01:16:20,280 --> 01:16:23,160
Speaker 1: you learn more things about the greater environment. That's the

1191
01:16:23,200 --> 01:16:26,639
Speaker 1: benefit of the scientific process and what we glean from

1192
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 1: studying a species. We did happen to come to find

1193
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:34,040
Speaker 1: out that the number one cause of mortality for the

1194
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:39,959
Speaker 1: California condor range wide in the reintroduction since is lead poisoning.

1195
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:43,840
Speaker 1: Now there were there were sufferings in here. How that's

1196
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 1: determined well, when birds are tracked with telemetry, when they

1197
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:53,639
Speaker 1: are tracked with telemetry, both GPS and VHF telemetry, because honestly,

1198
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:55,479
Speaker 1: because there are so few of them, you can track

1199
01:16:55,560 --> 01:16:58,760
Speaker 1: them on individual basis and because they were so endangered

1200
01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:01,960
Speaker 1: that the birds are monitored individual basis. So when I

1201
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:04,640
Speaker 1: came onto the scene as a as a state biologist

1202
01:17:04,640 --> 01:17:06,840
Speaker 1: fairs on a game and fish, there were six of

1203
01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:12,680
Speaker 1: us out there in February of watching six condoors and

1204
01:17:12,680 --> 01:17:16,439
Speaker 1: that was a the first Birds release December twelfth, which

1205
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:18,000
Speaker 1: I thought was cool as hell because we're out in

1206
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:19,719
Speaker 1: there for a million cliffs, which is also a really

1207
01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:22,200
Speaker 1: cool cheap spot. So you know, like we're gonna scan

1208
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:24,240
Speaker 1: for condoors and while they're sitting there, we can scan

1209
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:27,599
Speaker 1: for sheep and there's some pronghorn there and we're getting

1210
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 1: paid for this. I didn't know you could have this

1211
01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:31,640
Speaker 1: as a career. But anyway, my point is we had

1212
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:34,920
Speaker 1: six people watching six condoors. And while that might seem

1213
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:37,479
Speaker 1: crazy because do you really need to study them that

1214
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:40,639
Speaker 1: much to really, you know, understand well, I would argue

1215
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:43,960
Speaker 1: that yes, if you want to know what affects their

1216
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:47,000
Speaker 1: survival or lack thereof you do need to study them

1217
01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:50,040
Speaker 1: that way. So as we study them, and and we

1218
01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:53,080
Speaker 1: we were able to monitor the way in which a

1219
01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:57,679
Speaker 1: species that once ranged in the Grand Canyon region, we're

1220
01:17:57,680 --> 01:18:00,920
Speaker 1: not reintroducing them. And there's all these big questions out there.

1221
01:18:01,439 --> 01:18:04,160
Speaker 1: Will they find enough food because one of the early

1222
01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:06,439
Speaker 1: posts in the thirties as to why their populations were

1223
01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:09,040
Speaker 1: declining is because there wasn't enough food anymore. The birds

1224
01:18:09,080 --> 01:18:11,479
Speaker 1: too big, or the birds too big, or or they

1225
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:15,639
Speaker 1: eat too much and they can't fly afterwards, or they

1226
01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:17,639
Speaker 1: are all these different things that you hear, these old

1227
01:18:17,680 --> 01:18:21,280
Speaker 1: wives tales. And for me, as you know, look, I

1228
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:23,679
Speaker 1: I grew up outside of Bakersfield, California, and a little

1229
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:25,960
Speaker 1: farming community. So it was the oil field and the

1230
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:29,080
Speaker 1: farm and cattle. That's where I grew up. To me,

1231
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 1: the way I was introduced to the California condor is uh,

1232
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:36,400
Speaker 1: it's an endangered species. It's going to ruin our life, right.

1233
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:40,200
Speaker 1: And so as I studied more and more biology because

1234
01:18:40,240 --> 01:18:43,320
Speaker 1: of my interest in hunting and angling only, and then

1235
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:44,840
Speaker 1: I found out you could have a career in it.

1236
01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:47,080
Speaker 1: And the more and more I studied, I realized that,

1237
01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:49,640
Speaker 1: you know what the problem wasn't the species, and the

1238
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:53,680
Speaker 1: problem wasn't us ignorant, you know, hillbillies or rednecks out

1239
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:58,320
Speaker 1: in Button Willow. The problem was there's a disconnect between

1240
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:02,559
Speaker 1: science the people of the communities, and there's a lack

1241
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:06,000
Speaker 1: of trust because of this inability to communicate. Because one

1242
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:07,960
Speaker 1: of the ranchers that I worked for was the son

1243
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:10,920
Speaker 1: of an original homesteader in the southern San Juanquin Valley.

1244
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:14,040
Speaker 1: He as a kid saw as many as fifty condors

1245
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:18,559
Speaker 1: on a cal carcass. As a kid, he had natural

1246
01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:22,240
Speaker 1: history in his experience and knew more about condors than

1247
01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 1: the people who were studying them right as the last

1248
01:19:24,840 --> 01:19:27,080
Speaker 1: one was taken out the wild in the eighties. And

1249
01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:29,880
Speaker 1: I thought, Man, if we could just get these two

1250
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:33,080
Speaker 1: folks talking, there would be a shared understanding of the

1251
01:19:33,160 --> 01:19:36,280
Speaker 1: landscape and what's happening. That would be far greater than

1252
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:39,280
Speaker 1: just science or just somebody who says, yeah, they're on

1253
01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:40,960
Speaker 1: they're on their way out, because that's the way of

1254
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:43,240
Speaker 1: the you know, that's the way of God's creatures. They

1255
01:19:43,240 --> 01:19:46,599
Speaker 1: go extinct. So we would have thought, had we not

1256
01:19:47,040 --> 01:19:49,760
Speaker 1: studied the species, we could have thought that they were

1257
01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:52,880
Speaker 1: just on their way out. Hit real quick. You just

1258
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:55,519
Speaker 1: said it, but the last one was taken out the wild.

1259
01:19:55,520 --> 01:19:57,840
Speaker 1: I think it's important people, important point to get that,

1260
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:01,240
Speaker 1: like there were so few that they were all the

1261
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:05,360
Speaker 1: living ones were collected. Well yeah, because they were declining

1262
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:08,080
Speaker 1: so steeply, and that's only been since, you know, since

1263
01:20:08,120 --> 01:20:11,320
Speaker 1: they started being studied and studied in earnest in the twenties, thirties,

1264
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:14,280
Speaker 1: and really a pivotal study by Carl Cooeford in the forties.

1265
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:15,720
Speaker 1: Well there was a break because he had to go

1266
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:17,439
Speaker 1: to war, but when he got back he finished it up.

1267
01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:21,080
Speaker 1: That's the way folks were back then. Um. Anyway, Um,

1268
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:24,960
Speaker 1: the population was in such such deep steep decline, and

1269
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:27,360
Speaker 1: there were all these theories. One is there's not enough food.

1270
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:29,840
Speaker 1: The other is you know, goofy things, like they're so dumb,

1271
01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:34,400
Speaker 1: they're just not surviving well. From a biologist, a burgeoning

1272
01:20:34,439 --> 01:20:37,920
Speaker 1: biologists like myself and kind of a kid of the landscape,

1273
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:41,479
Speaker 1: I was like, you know when nature really produce a loser,

1274
01:20:42,320 --> 01:20:45,360
Speaker 1: because it seems to me evolutionary biology hones and polishes

1275
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:49,439
Speaker 1: every species to its finest representation as a wild animal.

1276
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:52,639
Speaker 1: So why all of a sudden are they struggling it's

1277
01:20:52,680 --> 01:20:55,000
Speaker 1: got to be a major imposition on the landscape or

1278
01:20:55,040 --> 01:20:57,479
Speaker 1: something that's going on. And then there were people said, oh,

1279
01:20:57,520 --> 01:20:59,920
Speaker 1: it's it's it's l a, you know, it's uh, they

1280
01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:03,000
Speaker 1: lost their habitat or condors are so sensitive that if

1281
01:21:03,040 --> 01:21:05,200
Speaker 1: you if they see somebody and they're sitting on their nest,

1282
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:08,519
Speaker 1: they'll abandon their nest. But once again, from just basic

1283
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:11,519
Speaker 1: biology and my experiences as a hunter and angler, I

1284
01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:14,160
Speaker 1: was like, does does nature build something like that? It

1285
01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:16,080
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense to me, right, or find me that

1286
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:20,200
Speaker 1: other comparison, because if one behaves like that, there's something else. Well,

1287
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:22,960
Speaker 1: there are a host of things that are sensitive to development.

1288
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:26,120
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, yeah, Oh yeah, and there's that little town,

1289
01:21:26,240 --> 01:21:28,320
Speaker 1: you know, Los Angeles, right there in the core heart

1290
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:30,720
Speaker 1: of their range. Right. But if you look at me

1291
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:33,280
Speaker 1: that like that, they eat so much and they can't

1292
01:21:33,320 --> 01:21:35,360
Speaker 1: walk around and get killed. Okay, I'm like, well, but

1293
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:39,080
Speaker 1: that would always have been the case. And the idea

1294
01:21:39,240 --> 01:21:44,080
Speaker 1: that habitat, the idea that you had, like a habitat issue,

1295
01:21:44,880 --> 01:21:47,160
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem to be as silly as like some

1296
01:21:47,320 --> 01:21:49,640
Speaker 1: other other things. Oh no, you can rank them, you

1297
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:51,360
Speaker 1: can rank them, but ill, but I'll tell you. I'll

1298
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:54,479
Speaker 1: give you a few examples about how by reintroducing the

1299
01:21:54,520 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 1: birds and studying them to the degree that we have,

1300
01:21:57,160 --> 01:22:00,519
Speaker 1: we've really narrowed it. Set aside, you know, were also

1301
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:02,639
Speaker 1: some who said, and if you look at the early

1302
01:22:02,720 --> 01:22:05,680
Speaker 1: writings and um Audubon for example. I'm not I'm not

1303
01:22:05,720 --> 01:22:09,200
Speaker 1: bashing Audubon here, but Audbon was against the collection of

1304
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:12,280
Speaker 1: the birds and starting a captive flock. And and you,

1305
01:22:12,680 --> 01:22:15,800
Speaker 1: I know you've probably read this. It was in Matheson's

1306
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:19,439
Speaker 1: book America's what was it called Wildlife in America. I

1307
01:22:19,439 --> 01:22:21,200
Speaker 1: read it, but I don't remember it. Yeah, he talks

1308
01:22:21,240 --> 01:22:24,280
Speaker 1: about that that that, look, we need to to to

1309
01:22:24,439 --> 01:22:27,479
Speaker 1: conserve these birds and prevent their extinction and then maybe

1310
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:30,439
Speaker 1: understand why they were going extinct, because it may not

1311
01:22:30,479 --> 01:22:33,160
Speaker 1: only benefit that species, it may benefit our understanding of

1312
01:22:33,200 --> 01:22:36,080
Speaker 1: the ecosystem, which would be far greater used. But you

1313
01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:38,840
Speaker 1: have to collect these birds and retain them in captivity

1314
01:22:39,400 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 1: so that you can go and figure out what the

1315
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:43,520
Speaker 1: problem was. Because by the time they were studied intensively,

1316
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:46,000
Speaker 1: their population was already in such a steep decline that

1317
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:48,360
Speaker 1: a captive population was the only thing that saved them

1318
01:22:48,360 --> 01:22:55,200
Speaker 1: from extinction. So December Easter Sunday, the last wild condor

1319
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:59,880
Speaker 1: was captured and removed from the wild cat Uh, you

1320
01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:02,320
Speaker 1: gotta go check this out. You guys would dig this

1321
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:08,800
Speaker 1: a pit trap, dig a hole, put a netting across you,

1322
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:11,000
Speaker 1: fill it with debris and things to hide, and put

1323
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:14,320
Speaker 1: a dripping rotting and carcass on top of that and

1324
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:16,479
Speaker 1: lie under it in weight so when the bird comes

1325
01:23:16,479 --> 01:23:18,679
Speaker 1: and lands, you can grab it by the legs. Who's

1326
01:23:18,720 --> 01:23:21,640
Speaker 1: the guy to grab that? I think it was Pete Bloom,

1327
01:23:21,680 --> 01:23:29,760
Speaker 1: who still is your tombstone. It's one of the same

1328
01:23:29,760 --> 01:23:34,200
Speaker 1: ways that falconers. He's still alive. Yeah, how does he? Yeah,

1329
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:37,639
Speaker 1: I don't know. He's like he's the generation. I mean,

1330
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:39,400
Speaker 1: he's one of our I look up to him as

1331
01:23:39,439 --> 01:23:41,760
Speaker 1: one of the He's one of the gods in the

1332
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:45,240
Speaker 1: world of conservation biology because of the stuff that they

1333
01:23:45,240 --> 01:23:49,080
Speaker 1: were doing back then. So so anyway, I find that

1334
01:23:49,160 --> 01:23:51,640
Speaker 1: feller that bird that was captured, the last one. A

1335
01:23:51,800 --> 01:23:55,439
Speaker 1: C nine stands for adult condor nine because we're into

1336
01:23:55,520 --> 01:23:59,200
Speaker 1: labeling ship I like all those names. So A C

1337
01:23:59,400 --> 01:24:02,600
Speaker 1: nine was the ninth condor given a number, and now

1338
01:24:02,720 --> 01:24:05,080
Speaker 1: every condoor produced since then, and we're up into the

1339
01:24:05,120 --> 01:24:08,080
Speaker 1: eleven and twelve hundreds now both for birds produced in

1340
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:10,160
Speaker 1: the wild end in captivity, every bird has a number,

1341
01:24:10,240 --> 01:24:13,960
Speaker 1: So a C nine was captured added to the captive flock. Luckily,

1342
01:24:14,280 --> 01:24:16,880
Speaker 1: the people running the captive propagation programs, the ones who

1343
01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:18,920
Speaker 1: really started it at Los Angeles Zoo in the San

1344
01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:21,920
Speaker 1: Diego Wild Animal Park or Zoo Global or what they're called,

1345
01:24:21,960 --> 01:24:25,080
Speaker 1: it's still the same outfit. They just changed their names. Well, um,

1346
01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:27,880
Speaker 1: that all started and they had that captive flock. A

1347
01:24:28,040 --> 01:24:30,759
Speaker 1: C nine was put in and paired up with a female,

1348
01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:34,879
Speaker 1: which again is not natural. And you have to understand

1349
01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:38,719
Speaker 1: two about the reproductive biology. Condors take eight years before

1350
01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:42,200
Speaker 1: they're able to reproduce in the wild. They're capable of

1351
01:24:42,280 --> 01:24:44,679
Speaker 1: it at five and six, respectively for males and females,

1352
01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:47,400
Speaker 1: but they're usually not successful until eight years of age,

1353
01:24:47,640 --> 01:24:49,920
Speaker 1: so they have a very slow rate of reproduction, which

1354
01:24:50,040 --> 01:24:55,240
Speaker 1: also lends to why weren't they able to respond naturally

1355
01:24:55,360 --> 01:24:59,320
Speaker 1: in the wild to increase causes of mortality because they

1356
01:24:59,360 --> 01:25:03,000
Speaker 1: don't produce quickly enough and their long lives species, so

1357
01:25:03,040 --> 01:25:06,280
Speaker 1: it's a difference between a K and are selected species. Anyway,

1358
01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:08,240
Speaker 1: go off on all kinds of tangents. So like a

1359
01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:10,479
Speaker 1: mus grats live a few months. It is throwing babies off.

1360
01:25:10,520 --> 01:25:13,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but these things got tough at out for yeah,

1361
01:25:13,640 --> 01:25:16,200
Speaker 1: close to a decade. Yeah, so to replace themselves and

1362
01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:18,880
Speaker 1: they only lay, well, not they, it's only the female.

1363
01:25:18,960 --> 01:25:21,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if you knew that, but I read that.

1364
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:24,519
Speaker 1: I read that. I always say they, and my my

1365
01:25:24,800 --> 01:25:27,519
Speaker 1: daughter's pointed out, like, dad, the male doesn't lay anything,

1366
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:29,400
Speaker 1: Like I know that, Like, yeah, but you say they

1367
01:25:29,720 --> 01:25:33,080
Speaker 1: the pair, Well, okay, they have an egg that the

1368
01:25:33,160 --> 01:25:36,160
Speaker 1: female lays and then they incubate it together. It takes

1369
01:25:36,439 --> 01:25:39,240
Speaker 1: like fifty seven days and then the thing hatches and

1370
01:25:39,280 --> 01:25:41,280
Speaker 1: then six months later it finally is ready to leave

1371
01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:45,320
Speaker 1: the nest. And the nest for six months six months, yeah,

1372
01:25:45,640 --> 01:25:48,320
Speaker 1: and then after it fledges, the parents take care of

1373
01:25:48,400 --> 01:25:50,720
Speaker 1: it for an additional year. So now you really have

1374
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:54,800
Speaker 1: the currency of exchange for you know, the the game

1375
01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:58,280
Speaker 1: of replacing yourself for condors, that's very limiting. But in

1376
01:25:58,360 --> 01:26:01,200
Speaker 1: captivity they could get the it's to read annually. And

1377
01:26:01,280 --> 01:26:03,400
Speaker 1: not only that, but they could prey upon another thing.

1378
01:26:03,439 --> 01:26:06,120
Speaker 1: We learned about a lot of different birds. They multiple

1379
01:26:06,200 --> 01:26:08,960
Speaker 1: clutch if they lose their first egg to predation. In

1380
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:11,360
Speaker 1: the wild, the female is able to recycle and lay

1381
01:26:11,400 --> 01:26:14,519
Speaker 1: another fertile egg. Sometimes that can happen two or three

1382
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:17,320
Speaker 1: times if their nest is predated. But of course all

1383
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:19,000
Speaker 1: these things in nature, they would have had to elaid

1384
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:21,479
Speaker 1: it early enough. Anyway, I know I'm geeking out on

1385
01:26:21,560 --> 01:26:23,320
Speaker 1: that part of it, but we take it. I didn't

1386
01:26:23,320 --> 01:26:25,280
Speaker 1: want to talk about condors, you got you got it all.

1387
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:27,800
Speaker 1: I love talking about condors, but you talked. But you

1388
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:30,240
Speaker 1: started it with lead and then condors, which I'll tell

1389
01:26:30,280 --> 01:26:32,840
Speaker 1: you why that's that's a bad idea. I don't know. Well,

1390
01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:35,519
Speaker 1: you were getting down to six of you watching six birds. Yeah,

1391
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:37,599
Speaker 1: six of us watching six birds. We learned a lot.

1392
01:26:38,280 --> 01:26:43,719
Speaker 1: So by multiple um you know, um double clutching, which

1393
01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:46,160
Speaker 1: were some of us probably old enough to we think

1394
01:26:46,200 --> 01:26:50,080
Speaker 1: that has a different all right, Well, double clutching and

1395
01:26:50,160 --> 01:26:52,559
Speaker 1: birds is getting too in the in the same same year,

1396
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:54,800
Speaker 1: same season. So you put the other egg in the incubator,

1397
01:26:55,040 --> 01:26:56,800
Speaker 1: you raise it up. Well, you don't want it to

1398
01:26:56,920 --> 01:26:59,040
Speaker 1: imprint on people. So they used the puppet to make

1399
01:26:59,040 --> 01:27:01,000
Speaker 1: sure that it was fair it and nurtured until it

1400
01:27:01,120 --> 01:27:03,000
Speaker 1: was then put into a foster care and then you

1401
01:27:03,120 --> 01:27:04,800
Speaker 1: take those young and you release them too the wild.

1402
01:27:05,200 --> 01:27:07,639
Speaker 1: Then we released into the wild, we put transmitters on them.

1403
01:27:07,720 --> 01:27:09,639
Speaker 1: We watched them now and back to the six people

1404
01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:12,080
Speaker 1: watching six birds, and you're like, now, we'll find out

1405
01:27:12,120 --> 01:27:14,320
Speaker 1: what happens to these sons of bitches exactly. And as

1406
01:27:14,439 --> 01:27:17,240
Speaker 1: we did, we found out it took them several years

1407
01:27:17,600 --> 01:27:20,880
Speaker 1: to occupy in behavior and in space what we now

1408
01:27:21,080 --> 01:27:24,200
Speaker 1: think is natural behavior because it's it's not very you know,

1409
01:27:24,680 --> 01:27:27,040
Speaker 1: we're seeing like a seventy eighty mile home range. These

1410
01:27:27,080 --> 01:27:30,760
Speaker 1: birds are moving seasonally around following the food. So during

1411
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:32,719
Speaker 1: hunting season they eat the hell out of gut piles.

1412
01:27:33,120 --> 01:27:36,759
Speaker 1: It's a great food source. During calving season, they're eating

1413
01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:39,360
Speaker 1: the drop calves, the ones that don't survive, they're eating

1414
01:27:39,400 --> 01:27:42,320
Speaker 1: the remains left behind. All of these things are we're

1415
01:27:42,479 --> 01:27:46,320
Speaker 1: learning because birds like a C nine last one captured

1416
01:27:46,400 --> 01:27:50,719
Speaker 1: put into captivity produce so many young artificially enhanced because

1417
01:27:50,760 --> 01:27:52,560
Speaker 1: we left to play with things as we learned about it.

1418
01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:55,320
Speaker 1: So we've been able to exponentially grow the population a

1419
01:27:55,439 --> 01:27:58,000
Speaker 1: short period of time to maximize the return on investment

1420
01:27:58,040 --> 01:28:00,160
Speaker 1: of the cost of this. To pump these birds out

1421
01:28:00,160 --> 01:28:02,360
Speaker 1: and then monitor them. Well, here's a neat thing about

1422
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:06,120
Speaker 1: the testament to the condor's resiliency. A C nine finally

1423
01:28:06,240 --> 01:28:08,240
Speaker 1: was so well represented, and we have a team of

1424
01:28:08,320 --> 01:28:11,000
Speaker 1: geneticists that monitor this to make sure that for every

1425
01:28:11,080 --> 01:28:14,799
Speaker 1: release site they have an equal representation of genetic diversity,

1426
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:18,120
Speaker 1: so that if we lose one population to some catastrophe,

1427
01:28:18,280 --> 01:28:21,800
Speaker 1: we still have that genetic stock somewhere, either in captivity

1428
01:28:22,080 --> 01:28:25,000
Speaker 1: in Arizona and Utah or in California and Baja. Those

1429
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:27,719
Speaker 1: are the three main groups, and your dozen egg carton,

1430
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:31,960
Speaker 1: you're there's a lot of parents represented in that dozen

1431
01:28:32,000 --> 01:28:33,880
Speaker 1: egg carton, well as many as you could have because

1432
01:28:33,920 --> 01:28:35,439
Speaker 1: they are only you know, the all time low was

1433
01:28:35,479 --> 01:28:39,560
Speaker 1: twenty two individuals. So from those twenty two came the

1434
01:28:39,600 --> 01:28:42,120
Speaker 1: breeding stock for the entire population today, which begs the

1435
01:28:42,240 --> 01:28:44,519
Speaker 1: question of is there enough genetic diversity for them to

1436
01:28:44,560 --> 01:28:48,320
Speaker 1: be viable in the first place. Luckily, in avian species

1437
01:28:48,400 --> 01:28:49,960
Speaker 1: that's not as much of an issue as it is

1438
01:28:50,000 --> 01:28:54,400
Speaker 1: with primates. So the Mauritius kestral is probably the best example.

1439
01:28:54,640 --> 01:28:57,360
Speaker 1: That was down to four birds in in the island

1440
01:28:57,400 --> 01:28:59,360
Speaker 1: of Mauritius, and now that bird has been brought back

1441
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:04,160
Speaker 1: to over four repairs. It's either fods or four innerpairs. Yeah,

1442
01:29:04,520 --> 01:29:07,040
Speaker 1: but as you start studying now with our capacities and

1443
01:29:07,160 --> 01:29:10,880
Speaker 1: science to study that, to look back using genetics, to

1444
01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:12,800
Speaker 1: look back and see what that bottleneck was and how

1445
01:29:12,840 --> 01:29:15,680
Speaker 1: many family groups there are. Well, the Andean condor, the

1446
01:29:15,760 --> 01:29:18,960
Speaker 1: closest living relative to the California condor. It too went

1447
01:29:19,040 --> 01:29:21,200
Speaker 1: through a bottleneck that has like three or four family

1448
01:29:21,240 --> 01:29:24,280
Speaker 1: groups is all. They have, same thing with California condor. Anyway,

1449
01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:27,519
Speaker 1: My point about A C nine is he was so

1450
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:31,280
Speaker 1: well represented they decided, why don't we rerelease him. He

1451
01:29:31,439 --> 01:29:33,559
Speaker 1: came from the wild, Let's put him back out there.

1452
01:29:34,240 --> 01:29:36,920
Speaker 1: Damned if he didn't get back back released and start

1453
01:29:36,960 --> 01:29:38,880
Speaker 1: breeding in the wild again and took a new mate

1454
01:29:38,920 --> 01:29:41,200
Speaker 1: and continued to produce young. He's probably pretty good at

1455
01:29:41,240 --> 01:29:43,479
Speaker 1: the reproducing part of this well because he had been Yeah,

1456
01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:49,360
Speaker 1: he'd been doing an annual basis right. My My point

1457
01:29:49,520 --> 01:29:51,680
Speaker 1: is people think that the condor is so fragile, and

1458
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:54,679
Speaker 1: I think people have that misconception that all endangered species

1459
01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:58,080
Speaker 1: are so fragile that's why they're endangered. That's not the case.

1460
01:29:58,400 --> 01:30:02,200
Speaker 1: Species get endangered and we get upity as people when

1461
01:30:02,479 --> 01:30:06,920
Speaker 1: changes too rapid, because too rapid a change causes us

1462
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:10,240
Speaker 1: to get tense about it, which and and too rapid

1463
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:14,760
Speaker 1: a change for wildlife interrupts their ability to respond to it,

1464
01:30:15,040 --> 01:30:17,400
Speaker 1: like if there's a new cause of mortality. And so

1465
01:30:17,560 --> 01:30:19,960
Speaker 1: I'm prefacing all this stuff because it's gonna matter when

1466
01:30:20,000 --> 01:30:22,000
Speaker 1: we talk about lead. But what I know about lead

1467
01:30:22,080 --> 01:30:33,400
Speaker 1: is mostly from my work with condors. So we go on,

1468
01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:36,920
Speaker 1: we're studying these birds. They start, uh, first lead lead

1469
01:30:37,000 --> 01:30:39,719
Speaker 1: poisoning case comes in, and this gets back to finally

1470
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:41,519
Speaker 1: answering your question, I do hear you, and I'm not

1471
01:30:41,600 --> 01:30:44,120
Speaker 1: ignoring you. How do you know about lead? How you

1472
01:30:44,200 --> 01:30:47,320
Speaker 1: know how many diet birds die of lead? We had

1473
01:30:47,360 --> 01:30:49,439
Speaker 1: a bird drop out of a tree south ron the

1474
01:30:49,479 --> 01:30:52,200
Speaker 1: Grand Canyon in the summer of two thousand. They went

1475
01:30:52,280 --> 01:30:53,920
Speaker 1: and recovered the bird, took it in, They did an

1476
01:30:53,960 --> 01:30:57,639
Speaker 1: EE cropsy, an autopsy for wildlife did an e cropsy.

1477
01:30:57,760 --> 01:30:59,840
Speaker 1: Come to find out the bird had lead pellets in

1478
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:03,400
Speaker 1: it's digestive system, meaning it had consumed something with digestive

1479
01:31:03,479 --> 01:31:06,479
Speaker 1: in its digestive system and consumed that meat that had pellets,

1480
01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:08,960
Speaker 1: which is odd because it's summertime and it's a Grand

1481
01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:11,040
Speaker 1: Canyon that's what the hell is going on there? Well,

1482
01:31:11,080 --> 01:31:12,880
Speaker 1: I got my ideas and I almost got fired for it.

1483
01:31:12,920 --> 01:31:17,160
Speaker 1: A game and fish, but that's another story. Um Now

1484
01:31:17,240 --> 01:31:18,800
Speaker 1: we know that. I looked at the X ray and

1485
01:31:18,880 --> 01:31:21,320
Speaker 1: I was like, that's number six and sevens. I know

1486
01:31:21,479 --> 01:31:23,479
Speaker 1: those are sevens because I've reloaded a hell a lot

1487
01:31:23,600 --> 01:31:25,200
Speaker 1: of them, and that's a six and I see some

1488
01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:27,400
Speaker 1: of those in duck hunting. That's six and sevens. What

1489
01:31:27,439 --> 01:31:29,759
Speaker 1: in the world's going on there? One bird had thirty

1490
01:31:29,800 --> 01:31:34,240
Speaker 1: three pellets in its stomach. Turns out, after that bird

1491
01:31:34,320 --> 01:31:37,560
Speaker 1: we got the diagnosis back to pets, not lead pellets. No,

1492
01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:39,920
Speaker 1: we're gonna get the fragments. That's a whole another venue

1493
01:31:39,960 --> 01:31:42,240
Speaker 1: and it's way more conclusive than the where in the

1494
01:31:42,280 --> 01:31:46,439
Speaker 1: hell these pellets come from? So we um. After that

1495
01:31:46,520 --> 01:31:48,760
Speaker 1: bird gets diagnosed, we see a couple of weather birds

1496
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:52,200
Speaker 1: looking lethargic, which is similar to any other vertebrate species

1497
01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:54,519
Speaker 1: and how they respond with lead poisoning. We're starting to

1498
01:31:54,560 --> 01:31:56,639
Speaker 1: see it, like, man, something wrong with this bird. It's lethargic,

1499
01:31:56,720 --> 01:31:58,400
Speaker 1: it's not going anywhere, it's not feeding with the rest

1500
01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:00,599
Speaker 1: of the birds. You go in and and well, let's

1501
01:32:00,640 --> 01:32:04,760
Speaker 1: trap the population we found thirteen birds after trapping the

1502
01:32:05,080 --> 01:32:07,920
Speaker 1: population in two thousand. I can't remember what the total was,

1503
01:32:08,040 --> 01:32:12,160
Speaker 1: but we had thirteen birds that had pellets in their

1504
01:32:12,200 --> 01:32:14,559
Speaker 1: gut and someone were sick and we had to keylate them.

1505
01:32:14,600 --> 01:32:16,920
Speaker 1: So luckily you can keylate the same process we use.

1506
01:32:17,720 --> 01:32:20,880
Speaker 1: Keylating is the is the Basically it's a you inject

1507
01:32:20,920 --> 01:32:23,200
Speaker 1: a solution and humans they do it through I V

1508
01:32:23,920 --> 01:32:26,160
Speaker 1: and the root word keel is claw and and it

1509
01:32:26,320 --> 01:32:28,840
Speaker 1: molecularly binds to the lead and then can be passed

1510
01:32:28,880 --> 01:32:32,040
Speaker 1: through the system. So in condors we just give them

1511
01:32:32,040 --> 01:32:35,000
Speaker 1: two injections a day and the intermuscular injections in the

1512
01:32:35,080 --> 01:32:38,760
Speaker 1: pack and then it helps to reduce the lead. It

1513
01:32:38,880 --> 01:32:41,559
Speaker 1: debriates more quickly because if it doesn't get taken out

1514
01:32:41,600 --> 01:32:44,920
Speaker 1: of the system like other vertebrate system, lead precipitates out

1515
01:32:44,960 --> 01:32:46,840
Speaker 1: of the blood stream into the organs, into the bone

1516
01:32:46,840 --> 01:32:50,000
Speaker 1: and brain, where there's an increasing difficulty of getting rid

1517
01:32:50,040 --> 01:32:51,880
Speaker 1: of it because the half life of lead and blood

1518
01:32:52,000 --> 01:32:54,280
Speaker 1: is like fourteen days. Half life of lead in the

1519
01:32:54,320 --> 01:32:56,800
Speaker 1: brain might be forty years. So we can start doing

1520
01:32:56,880 --> 01:33:00,080
Speaker 1: real damage with accumulations over a lifetime. Can we to

1521
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:04,360
Speaker 1: find deporate? Oh gosh, yeah, I can't believe I used

1522
01:33:04,400 --> 01:33:06,600
Speaker 1: words of that. No, it's cool. No, people get to

1523
01:33:06,720 --> 01:33:14,720
Speaker 1: learn stuff. Deporation is the ability or the way in

1524
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:19,160
Speaker 1: which a a an element. In this case, it precipitates

1525
01:33:19,200 --> 01:33:21,240
Speaker 1: out of the system. So they're different ways. Some of

1526
01:33:21,320 --> 01:33:23,080
Speaker 1: it is through waste, some of it is through being

1527
01:33:23,160 --> 01:33:30,040
Speaker 1: locked up into other compartments. So sorry, snort, I thought

1528
01:33:30,120 --> 01:33:35,000
Speaker 1: that was you for a minute. So um so, So

1529
01:33:35,120 --> 01:33:38,120
Speaker 1: we learned that lead poisoning in fact is something that

1530
01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:41,640
Speaker 1: reared its ugly head in our reintroduction program in Arizona.

1531
01:33:42,080 --> 01:33:44,719
Speaker 1: Now this wasn't unknown. There were studies in the eighties

1532
01:33:44,800 --> 01:33:47,080
Speaker 1: where they found a few birds and this gets back

1533
01:33:47,120 --> 01:33:49,280
Speaker 1: to another thing I was talking about earlier. They found

1534
01:33:49,280 --> 01:33:52,679
Speaker 1: a few birds near waterways and they had such huge

1535
01:33:52,800 --> 01:33:56,240
Speaker 1: crops that it looked like they were they had gorged themselves.

1536
01:33:57,160 --> 01:33:59,640
Speaker 1: But one of the effects that lead poisoning has on

1537
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:03,439
Speaker 1: on a condor is, like other vertebrate species, there are

1538
01:34:03,600 --> 01:34:07,400
Speaker 1: neural neural impacts. They're neural pathways that are blocked and

1539
01:34:07,479 --> 01:34:10,200
Speaker 1: you get paralysis. And this happens with humans and lead

1540
01:34:10,200 --> 01:34:16,320
Speaker 1: poisoning as well. Um So, the condor's digestive system is paralyzed. Therefore,

1541
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:19,479
Speaker 1: the sphincter that controls the food from the crop that

1542
01:34:19,600 --> 01:34:23,120
Speaker 1: goes down through the proventriculous and ventriculous and into the gut.

1543
01:34:23,960 --> 01:34:27,920
Speaker 1: It can't function anymore. So they're starving essentially, and they

1544
01:34:28,000 --> 01:34:30,760
Speaker 1: can't they they they're still eating more and more and more,

1545
01:34:31,160 --> 01:34:33,880
Speaker 1: and so they're filling up this huge crop. And because

1546
01:34:33,880 --> 01:34:36,280
Speaker 1: they're in a weakened state because they're not processing food,

1547
01:34:36,439 --> 01:34:39,240
Speaker 1: they can't fly. And because they can't fly and they're

1548
01:34:39,240 --> 01:34:43,719
Speaker 1: not processing food, they usually don't need metabolic water because

1549
01:34:43,840 --> 01:34:45,920
Speaker 1: they can I mean, they don't need water because they

1550
01:34:45,960 --> 01:34:49,439
Speaker 1: can get water through the metabolic processes of processing their food.

1551
01:34:50,120 --> 01:34:52,479
Speaker 1: So if they're not getting the benefit of their food,

1552
01:34:52,800 --> 01:34:56,280
Speaker 1: they're eating themselves into this and gorge state and they're

1553
01:34:56,280 --> 01:34:58,120
Speaker 1: not getting the moisture they need to go to water.

1554
01:34:58,640 --> 01:35:00,800
Speaker 1: So these birds were found I learned this when I

1555
01:35:00,880 --> 01:35:04,360
Speaker 1: was doing my dissertation research. And so we found that

1556
01:35:04,600 --> 01:35:07,160
Speaker 1: these birds would be there with this huge crop and

1557
01:35:07,200 --> 01:35:09,920
Speaker 1: they couldn't fly. It wasn't because they had over eaten.

1558
01:35:10,080 --> 01:35:12,400
Speaker 1: It's because they were dying lead poisoning, and they'd be

1559
01:35:12,479 --> 01:35:15,560
Speaker 1: collected near water. Yeah, yeah, and and that's common. So

1560
01:35:15,760 --> 01:35:18,719
Speaker 1: over like here's where this wive's tail came from exactly,

1561
01:35:18,840 --> 01:35:20,800
Speaker 1: like exactly, thank you. That was the point I wanted

1562
01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:22,600
Speaker 1: to come all the way back to. So as I

1563
01:35:22,680 --> 01:35:25,560
Speaker 1: started researching this, and because you know when birds go

1564
01:35:26,080 --> 01:35:30,800
Speaker 1: go silent on telemetry or GPS, when they're GPS is

1565
01:35:30,840 --> 01:35:33,200
Speaker 1: moving around as we expect them to, and ban they

1566
01:35:33,240 --> 01:35:36,040
Speaker 1: stop and they're there for two weeks. Something's wrong. You

1567
01:35:36,200 --> 01:35:38,880
Speaker 1: go there and and we started putting this together, is

1568
01:35:38,920 --> 01:35:41,800
Speaker 1: like is there a creek, yep, go to that creek,

1569
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:43,640
Speaker 1: hike up that creek. We're gonna find that bird. So

1570
01:35:43,680 --> 01:35:46,639
Speaker 1: you get your VHF telemetry. You'd either fly at first

1571
01:35:46,720 --> 01:35:48,479
Speaker 1: to kind of narrow it down, and then we'd go

1572
01:35:48,560 --> 01:35:50,760
Speaker 1: in by by you know, a TV and then hike

1573
01:35:50,840 --> 01:35:53,320
Speaker 1: in the rest and then we would would find that bird.

1574
01:35:53,360 --> 01:35:55,200
Speaker 1: And sure enough it's got a full crop. And it

1575
01:35:55,320 --> 01:35:58,559
Speaker 1: smells because the crop is soured, which is not normal

1576
01:35:58,800 --> 01:36:00,560
Speaker 1: for I mean it it's when you smell like a

1577
01:36:00,760 --> 01:36:03,599
Speaker 1: like a paragrine that's just eating, that's just eating a meal.

1578
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:06,120
Speaker 1: It doesn't smell what people think. It smells like, oh

1579
01:36:06,200 --> 01:36:07,960
Speaker 1: it's dead meat or it's red meat. It has a

1580
01:36:08,040 --> 01:36:10,360
Speaker 1: sweet smell, just like a good piece of elk does

1581
01:36:10,520 --> 01:36:13,920
Speaker 1: you know, and condors when they're scavenging, they're scavenging on

1582
01:36:14,000 --> 01:36:17,160
Speaker 1: carcasses when they're new because they find them by eyesight,

1583
01:36:17,280 --> 01:36:20,439
Speaker 1: not by their smell, and so their big bill allows

1584
01:36:20,520 --> 01:36:23,320
Speaker 1: them to tear into carcasses that other scavenging species like

1585
01:36:23,360 --> 01:36:27,080
Speaker 1: turkey vultures can't do. So condors are eating fresher carrying,

1586
01:36:27,200 --> 01:36:29,120
Speaker 1: if there is such a thing. So they usually don't stink.

1587
01:36:29,560 --> 01:36:31,800
Speaker 1: You can smell when they're sick and they have a

1588
01:36:31,880 --> 01:36:34,559
Speaker 1: soured crop and you can see it because it looks

1589
01:36:34,560 --> 01:36:38,240
Speaker 1: like a big balloon. Um. So we're so we're learning

1590
01:36:38,280 --> 01:36:40,000
Speaker 1: all this stuff, and then I start reading these old

1591
01:36:40,000 --> 01:36:41,760
Speaker 1: papers from the eighties where they said, well, we know

1592
01:36:41,880 --> 01:36:44,640
Speaker 1: lead poisoning could be a contributing factor. Well, as it

1593
01:36:44,680 --> 01:36:48,320
Speaker 1: turns out, lead poison is the number one factor. And

1594
01:36:48,520 --> 01:36:51,280
Speaker 1: so for us, that's how we came to our understanding

1595
01:36:51,320 --> 01:36:55,680
Speaker 1: of lead poisoning and how it could have really contributed

1596
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:58,880
Speaker 1: to the steep decline and near extinction. And so rather

1597
01:36:59,000 --> 01:37:01,799
Speaker 1: than rest thing on that, we went to our partners

1598
01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:03,479
Speaker 1: that airs on the Game and Fish and Utah Division

1599
01:37:03,520 --> 01:37:06,759
Speaker 1: Wildlife and said, hey, folks, we've been monitoring these birds

1600
01:37:06,840 --> 01:37:11,360
Speaker 1: now since and beginning in two thousand two when the

1601
01:37:11,439 --> 01:37:16,160
Speaker 1: condors found the Kaibab plateau and they started feeding on

1602
01:37:16,280 --> 01:37:19,160
Speaker 1: gut piles in like, this was the seasonal thing you did.

1603
01:37:19,320 --> 01:37:22,800
Speaker 1: It's like State Fair in Bakersfield, right, everybody goes there. Well,

1604
01:37:22,880 --> 01:37:25,840
Speaker 1: hunting season on the Kaibab. All the condors. You can

1605
01:37:25,880 --> 01:37:28,479
Speaker 1: see all their location data if they're wearing gps is

1606
01:37:28,640 --> 01:37:31,040
Speaker 1: or we're tracking them with VHF. They all go to

1607
01:37:31,120 --> 01:37:35,240
Speaker 1: the Kaibab and we get a signal in the stationary

1608
01:37:35,280 --> 01:37:37,800
Speaker 1: signal means they're either perched or they're perched because they're

1609
01:37:37,880 --> 01:37:40,680
Speaker 1: they're feeding. Well, you have to wait awhile because they

1610
01:37:40,760 --> 01:37:43,479
Speaker 1: stop and rest and then fly quite a bit. But

1611
01:37:43,560 --> 01:37:45,040
Speaker 1: if they're there for a couple of hours and there's

1612
01:37:45,080 --> 01:37:47,280
Speaker 1: five or six birds, you go there and you rush

1613
01:37:47,400 --> 01:37:49,639
Speaker 1: up and there you are at a camp, at hunters camp,

1614
01:37:50,080 --> 01:37:52,639
Speaker 1: and there's a bloody greasy spot in the pine needles

1615
01:37:52,720 --> 01:37:54,679
Speaker 1: over there, and there's a bunch of condoors with big

1616
01:37:54,760 --> 01:37:57,679
Speaker 1: fat crops, and the hunters are long gone, and there's

1617
01:37:57,720 --> 01:37:59,599
Speaker 1: the bones, there's the hide, and the condors are fat

1618
01:37:59,680 --> 01:38:02,000
Speaker 1: and happy. You're like, great, it's a great food source.

1619
01:38:02,600 --> 01:38:06,959
Speaker 1: Until we started seeing seasonally high levels of lead speaking

1620
01:38:07,400 --> 01:38:11,879
Speaker 1: coinciding with the hunting season. So we took and sampled

1621
01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:14,960
Speaker 1: the bird's blood every time we caught them so that

1622
01:38:15,080 --> 01:38:17,840
Speaker 1: we could have samples of blood year round. And sure enough,

1623
01:38:17,920 --> 01:38:20,599
Speaker 1: we saw a spike that coincided with October November, which

1624
01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:22,240
Speaker 1: was when the two deer hunts are in the Kibab.

1625
01:38:22,320 --> 01:38:24,600
Speaker 1: But you're not seeing deaths at this point, oh no, No,

1626
01:38:24,920 --> 01:38:27,880
Speaker 1: deaths were creeping along. And then after like two or

1627
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:30,720
Speaker 1: three years of consistent use of the kaibab, you could

1628
01:38:30,760 --> 01:38:32,439
Speaker 1: count on it. We were going to lose six to

1629
01:38:32,560 --> 01:38:35,559
Speaker 1: ten condors a year to lead poisoning. And that's when

1630
01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:39,120
Speaker 1: Steve we finally found the pictures in the radiographs. We

1631
01:38:39,320 --> 01:38:41,639
Speaker 1: we got an X ray machine and if a bird

1632
01:38:41,720 --> 01:38:43,840
Speaker 1: was sick and it had a high blood lead level,

1633
01:38:43,960 --> 01:38:46,000
Speaker 1: we would X ray it and sure as hell we'd

1634
01:38:46,040 --> 01:38:49,400
Speaker 1: find fragments. And then we started asking a question of okay,

1635
01:38:49,520 --> 01:38:52,360
Speaker 1: but wait a second, is this because of wounding loss?

1636
01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:56,559
Speaker 1: We didn't. We didn't yet understand the relationship between gut piles.

1637
01:38:57,439 --> 01:39:00,479
Speaker 1: So being lifelong hunters and being you know, the fund

1638
01:39:00,560 --> 01:39:03,680
Speaker 1: is founded by hunters falconers who don't do d and

1639
01:39:03,760 --> 01:39:11,080
Speaker 1: d uh, so they say, so we said, well, hell,

1640
01:39:11,160 --> 01:39:13,840
Speaker 1: let's do a study because because wounding loss we know

1641
01:39:14,000 --> 01:39:15,920
Speaker 1: is only about ten eleven percent in deer hunting, we

1642
01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:17,840
Speaker 1: looked at studies all over the place and like, we're

1643
01:39:17,880 --> 01:39:19,720
Speaker 1: not talking about ten or eleven percent of the dear

1644
01:39:19,760 --> 01:39:22,439
Speaker 1: harvested being the source of lead poisoning that accounts for

1645
01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:26,320
Speaker 1: of the condor flock having high lead levels. We're talking

1646
01:39:26,320 --> 01:39:28,880
Speaker 1: about something more ubiquitous on the landscape. We've got to

1647
01:39:28,920 --> 01:39:31,439
Speaker 1: figure out how much lead there can be. So we

1648
01:39:31,600 --> 01:39:33,479
Speaker 1: did our first study where we went and shot thirty

1649
01:39:33,560 --> 01:39:35,479
Speaker 1: deer up in Wyoming at one of our our board

1650
01:39:35,520 --> 01:39:39,800
Speaker 1: members places, and and sure enough, this was another point

1651
01:39:39,840 --> 01:39:42,280
Speaker 1: in my personal wildlife career is like, are you kidding me?

1652
01:39:42,520 --> 01:39:45,519
Speaker 1: We're all got five dopon permits and we're gonna go

1653
01:39:45,600 --> 01:39:47,400
Speaker 1: do this study and we're gonna shoot all these deer.

1654
01:39:47,400 --> 01:39:49,880
Speaker 1: We're gonna x raym hole. We're gonna shoot him with

1655
01:39:50,000 --> 01:39:52,920
Speaker 1: everything from a two forty three to three wimmag x

1656
01:39:53,040 --> 01:39:55,360
Speaker 1: ray m hole. Then we're gonna gut them into a

1657
01:39:55,520 --> 01:39:57,640
Speaker 1: supplement tub. If any of you know what that is.

1658
01:39:57,760 --> 01:39:59,200
Speaker 1: You know they find them out in the field all

1659
01:39:59,200 --> 01:40:00,960
Speaker 1: the time. We throw in the supplement tub. Then we're

1660
01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:03,439
Speaker 1: gonna xtray the supplement tub. It's that thing that you

1661
01:40:03,600 --> 01:40:06,640
Speaker 1: briefly know as an animal and you throw your binoculars

1662
01:40:06,680 --> 01:40:09,400
Speaker 1: on it. What the hell is a big bucket doing out,

1663
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:14,000
Speaker 1: especially when you're hog hunting in California. So so we

1664
01:40:14,080 --> 01:40:17,640
Speaker 1: started extraying um these carcasses of deer hole at a

1665
01:40:18,240 --> 01:40:20,360
Speaker 1: with a veterinarian up there, and we put an narrow

1666
01:40:20,400 --> 01:40:22,720
Speaker 1: shaft through the wound channel so we could hold it

1667
01:40:22,840 --> 01:40:25,400
Speaker 1: perfectly straight up and down, so that the wound channel

1668
01:40:25,479 --> 01:40:28,600
Speaker 1: was in a kilumter fashion, so that when we had

1669
01:40:28,640 --> 01:40:31,799
Speaker 1: the x ray, we could also see if fragmentation occurred,

1670
01:40:31,840 --> 01:40:36,160
Speaker 1: how far those fragments UM got away from the bullets path.

1671
01:40:36,960 --> 01:40:40,240
Speaker 1: So we would started being blown away with just that alone.

1672
01:40:40,360 --> 01:40:42,080
Speaker 1: And we're like, man, that's a lot of that's a

1673
01:40:42,120 --> 01:40:45,160
Speaker 1: lot of lead. But still most we take the deer

1674
01:40:45,200 --> 01:40:47,360
Speaker 1: out of the we got it in Arizona. We got it,

1675
01:40:47,400 --> 01:40:49,439
Speaker 1: and we take it out of the field. And so

1676
01:40:49,560 --> 01:40:52,639
Speaker 1: we're like, well, let's do the gut piles. This blew

1677
01:40:52,720 --> 01:40:56,000
Speaker 1: our minds and we're lifelong hunters. We x rayed those

1678
01:40:56,040 --> 01:40:58,240
Speaker 1: fragments and and I'll give you I won't say the

1679
01:40:58,320 --> 01:41:00,799
Speaker 1: names of the manufacturers because I don't pick on anybody.

1680
01:41:00,840 --> 01:41:04,519
Speaker 1: But anyway, a soft point lead core bullet that everybody

1681
01:41:04,720 --> 01:41:07,040
Speaker 1: has probably used in their life and most common on

1682
01:41:07,080 --> 01:41:10,599
Speaker 1: the shelf. It's said to retain sixty four to sixty

1683
01:41:10,800 --> 01:41:14,600
Speaker 1: percent of its mass. Damn sure does. It's perfect. The

1684
01:41:14,640 --> 01:41:18,240
Speaker 1: mushroom looks beautiful when you actually that gut pile. And

1685
01:41:18,520 --> 01:41:22,000
Speaker 1: and people say not, probably your listeners. They say, well,

1686
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:23,760
Speaker 1: I don't shoot them in the guts. Well, you know

1687
01:41:23,840 --> 01:41:26,680
Speaker 1: what I mean, everything for and aft of the diaphragm

1688
01:41:26,800 --> 01:41:28,559
Speaker 1: is what we call the gut. You're leaving on the ground,

1689
01:41:28,600 --> 01:41:30,680
Speaker 1: but you're leaving on the ground or the grolic if

1690
01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:33,479
Speaker 1: you're in you know, Ireland or whatever. No, that's that's

1691
01:41:33,560 --> 01:41:37,479
Speaker 1: diaphragm back garlic? Is this diaphragm back? All right? Well

1692
01:41:37,720 --> 01:41:40,720
Speaker 1: let see there it goes a t question. Yeah, there

1693
01:41:40,800 --> 01:41:42,559
Speaker 1: you go. Get that in there. I hope he does

1694
01:41:42,600 --> 01:41:47,639
Speaker 1: ask about that. So anyway, um that when we actually

1695
01:41:47,800 --> 01:41:50,240
Speaker 1: the gut piles, that's what blew our minds. A single

1696
01:41:50,320 --> 01:41:53,200
Speaker 1: shot from say a hundred thirty grain two seventy soft

1697
01:41:53,400 --> 01:41:56,559
Speaker 1: soft lead core tip bullet could produce as many as

1698
01:41:56,600 --> 01:42:00,400
Speaker 1: four fragments from a single shot. Holy cow, it looks

1699
01:42:00,439 --> 01:42:03,920
Speaker 1: like a snowstorm. And so I started investigating and looking

1700
01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:05,800
Speaker 1: into the snow storm. You know, I didn't know what

1701
01:42:05,920 --> 01:42:07,960
Speaker 1: to call it at the time, but I said, well,

1702
01:42:08,280 --> 01:42:12,800
Speaker 1: there's gotta be fragmentation studies, you know, elsewhere, especially during wartime,

1703
01:42:13,560 --> 01:42:16,160
Speaker 1: because unfortunately, it's not like you see on the John

1704
01:42:16,200 --> 01:42:18,200
Speaker 1: Wayne flicks. You know, take a shot of whiskey, bite

1705
01:42:18,240 --> 01:42:20,400
Speaker 1: this dick, I'll get that bullet out. Well, you might

1706
01:42:20,479 --> 01:42:22,840
Speaker 1: get the core of the slugout, but you're not getting

1707
01:42:22,840 --> 01:42:25,799
Speaker 1: a let out. And there's what was defined in wartime

1708
01:42:25,920 --> 01:42:29,960
Speaker 1: as the snowstorm effect, which was the fragmentation that occurs.

1709
01:42:30,479 --> 01:42:32,760
Speaker 1: And it's basically the stripping off of the front end

1710
01:42:32,800 --> 01:42:35,600
Speaker 1: of that bullet as it comes in hot with its

1711
01:42:35,680 --> 01:42:38,639
Speaker 1: highest velocity and as it begins to lose velocity because

1712
01:42:38,680 --> 01:42:41,600
Speaker 1: it's losing mass, little pieces are being stripped off, and

1713
01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:44,120
Speaker 1: it looks like this little galaxy. And that's what these

1714
01:42:44,240 --> 01:42:47,000
Speaker 1: X rays look like. Uh, let me hit you with

1715
01:42:47,120 --> 01:42:51,080
Speaker 1: some what about is ms? You bet? What was going

1716
01:42:51,160 --> 01:42:55,120
Speaker 1: on like when the hide hunters and the commercial hunters,

1717
01:42:56,320 --> 01:43:00,280
Speaker 1: we're re shedding like shiploads of condors. I don't know,

1718
01:43:00,360 --> 01:43:02,800
Speaker 1: if you look at the condor's estimated decline, and you

1719
01:43:02,880 --> 01:43:06,000
Speaker 1: look at our increase in those activities, it looks like

1720
01:43:06,120 --> 01:43:12,639
Speaker 1: an inverse relationship wine inverse relationship. Well, oh got it? Yeah,

1721
01:43:13,040 --> 01:43:15,400
Speaker 1: maybe I said that wrong. I don't know, honey, activity

1722
01:43:15,520 --> 01:43:19,439
Speaker 1: is going up and then the harvest. So someone could

1723
01:43:19,479 --> 01:43:21,840
Speaker 1: have it. You had the right tool kit, you could

1724
01:43:21,880 --> 01:43:28,160
Speaker 1: have in eighteen seventy gone out and found lead contamination

1725
01:43:28,160 --> 01:43:34,080
Speaker 1: and condors and might have charted a declining if I

1726
01:43:34,280 --> 01:43:35,800
Speaker 1: if I was a betting man and I had the

1727
01:43:35,840 --> 01:43:39,000
Speaker 1: money to bet, I'd be betting on that. Because look,

1728
01:43:39,160 --> 01:43:42,120
Speaker 1: and that's the beauty of this study. We weren't looking

1729
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:45,000
Speaker 1: for lead to be the problem. We were looking and

1730
01:43:45,120 --> 01:43:48,040
Speaker 1: open to the idea of what what are the problems

1731
01:43:48,120 --> 01:43:52,120
Speaker 1: that contribute to Maybe it is the lack of genetic variability,

1732
01:43:52,200 --> 01:43:54,200
Speaker 1: stuff like that. We were thinking that. And there were

1733
01:43:54,240 --> 01:43:56,960
Speaker 1: people who said that all these birds hatching captivity, they're

1734
01:43:56,960 --> 01:43:59,920
Speaker 1: not going to know how to breed. And I was like, again,

1735
01:44:00,280 --> 01:44:03,600
Speaker 1: would nature produce something like that in just a few generations?

1736
01:44:04,000 --> 01:44:06,680
Speaker 1: And get this, Some of the birds we released when

1737
01:44:06,720 --> 01:44:09,000
Speaker 1: they became of breeding age at five and six years

1738
01:44:09,000 --> 01:44:12,640
Speaker 1: of age, they chose caves in the Grand Canyon that

1739
01:44:12,800 --> 01:44:15,639
Speaker 1: later through investigation of those caves were used by their

1740
01:44:15,640 --> 01:44:20,240
Speaker 1: ancestors in the place to see there were fonal remains

1741
01:44:20,479 --> 01:44:23,160
Speaker 1: that were carried there, likely by condors, because you're not

1742
01:44:23,160 --> 01:44:26,960
Speaker 1: going to get a Harrison's Mountain goat uh tooth, you know,

1743
01:44:27,320 --> 01:44:32,200
Speaker 1: in in one of those caves on the sheer red wall. Yeah,

1744
01:44:32,520 --> 01:44:35,200
Speaker 1: it was kind and they found condor remains and those

1745
01:44:35,240 --> 01:44:39,120
Speaker 1: condors that were hatched in captivity. Who by some people's assertions,

1746
01:44:39,160 --> 01:44:40,840
Speaker 1: you know, they're not gonna know what to do, Well,

1747
01:44:40,920 --> 01:44:42,640
Speaker 1: yeah they did, and they did it just like you know,

1748
01:44:42,840 --> 01:44:46,760
Speaker 1: they're great, great, great great whatever uh did. So we

1749
01:44:46,920 --> 01:44:49,720
Speaker 1: became we became more and more confident that what we're

1750
01:44:49,720 --> 01:44:53,120
Speaker 1: seeing is more indicative of of what a wild condors doing.

1751
01:44:53,200 --> 01:44:56,439
Speaker 1: Like people said, well, there's not enough food out there. Again,

1752
01:44:56,560 --> 01:44:58,519
Speaker 1: I think about that and and a lot of what

1753
01:44:58,600 --> 01:45:00,560
Speaker 1: I think about as a conversation guys have had on

1754
01:45:00,640 --> 01:45:03,720
Speaker 1: this podcast. Wait a second, we're at the peak of

1755
01:45:03,840 --> 01:45:07,080
Speaker 1: productivity on the landscape right now with respect to carrying

1756
01:45:07,320 --> 01:45:11,160
Speaker 1: the potential for carrying wildlife populations of deer and elk

1757
01:45:11,240 --> 01:45:13,719
Speaker 1: and turkeys and whatever else you want to talk about.

1758
01:45:14,280 --> 01:45:18,640
Speaker 1: The the the age of conservation has produced an abundance

1759
01:45:18,760 --> 01:45:22,160
Speaker 1: of biomass of potential carrying. And then you add from

1760
01:45:22,240 --> 01:45:25,439
Speaker 1: the years of the Spaniards on through to today, the

1761
01:45:25,520 --> 01:45:28,880
Speaker 1: introduction of domestic stock and having the stocking rates we

1762
01:45:29,040 --> 01:45:31,680
Speaker 1: use on the landscape, I would posit that there might

1763
01:45:31,760 --> 01:45:35,320
Speaker 1: be more potential carrying today than there might have been

1764
01:45:35,680 --> 01:45:38,320
Speaker 1: right after the last the end, the less ice age

1765
01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:41,320
Speaker 1: when you factor in live stock. It's interesting. Oh, absolutely,

1766
01:45:41,800 --> 01:45:43,800
Speaker 1: Now there's because in a lot of areas you just

1767
01:45:43,880 --> 01:45:47,320
Speaker 1: you're you're constantly making sure that you're hitting max capacity. Yeah,

1768
01:45:47,479 --> 01:45:50,080
Speaker 1: and and people have made the argument. I think it's

1769
01:45:50,120 --> 01:45:53,000
Speaker 1: worthy the most. You know, with the the advent of

1770
01:45:53,160 --> 01:45:56,240
Speaker 1: veterinary care, the loss rates are are much less too,

1771
01:45:56,479 --> 01:45:58,960
Speaker 1: So one could argue, you know, I'm just saying that

1772
01:45:59,479 --> 01:46:02,439
Speaker 1: from what you've seen and observing the condors. We put

1773
01:46:02,520 --> 01:46:05,680
Speaker 1: food out there when we release birds because our management

1774
01:46:05,720 --> 01:46:08,040
Speaker 1: tool is the release site. If we can't keep them

1775
01:46:08,120 --> 01:46:10,439
Speaker 1: coming back to the release site, we can't go trap them.

1776
01:46:10,520 --> 01:46:13,599
Speaker 1: They're damn hard to trap once they're out in the field. Um,

1777
01:46:14,600 --> 01:46:17,080
Speaker 1: we we thought, well, we don't want them to come

1778
01:46:17,200 --> 01:46:20,040
Speaker 1: dependent on the food that we put out, So like

1779
01:46:20,439 --> 01:46:22,720
Speaker 1: five six months after you know, this is in the

1780
01:46:22,800 --> 01:46:25,320
Speaker 1: early years. We put the food out there, we'd move

1781
01:46:25,360 --> 01:46:27,240
Speaker 1: it every night, make them work for it, make them

1782
01:46:27,320 --> 01:46:28,439
Speaker 1: have to do what they're going to have to do

1783
01:46:28,479 --> 01:46:31,559
Speaker 1: in the landscape to survive. And then later we found

1784
01:46:31,720 --> 01:46:33,559
Speaker 1: that it doesn't matter what you do and how much

1785
01:46:33,600 --> 01:46:36,840
Speaker 1: foods there come the flying season as soon as March

1786
01:46:36,880 --> 01:46:39,280
Speaker 1: and April hit in northern Arizona and southern Utah and

1787
01:46:39,320 --> 01:46:43,320
Speaker 1: the winds pick up, Hey fuels cheap. Condors are gliding birds.

1788
01:46:43,360 --> 01:46:45,240
Speaker 1: They have nine and a half foot wingspan. They're gonna

1789
01:46:45,320 --> 01:46:47,719
Speaker 1: use it and they're gonna go and they're gonna feed elsewhere.

1790
01:46:48,000 --> 01:46:50,040
Speaker 1: So they're not dependent on the food. So we're beginning

1791
01:46:50,040 --> 01:46:53,519
Speaker 1: to answer these original questions. Was that their reproductive biology?

1792
01:46:53,800 --> 01:46:56,200
Speaker 1: Was it the amount of food on the landscape. And

1793
01:46:56,320 --> 01:47:00,599
Speaker 1: then you know people saying that they're they they're so uh,

1794
01:47:00,920 --> 01:47:05,519
Speaker 1: they're so vulnerable to people. Does that make sense? For

1795
01:47:05,600 --> 01:47:09,000
Speaker 1: as long as humans have hunted in North America, condors

1796
01:47:09,040 --> 01:47:12,679
Speaker 1: have been here, and condors follow scavengers, I mean follow predators.

1797
01:47:13,800 --> 01:47:16,559
Speaker 1: So I would argue that wait a second, condors aren't

1798
01:47:16,600 --> 01:47:19,320
Speaker 1: looking at us as a predator. And with the birds

1799
01:47:19,400 --> 01:47:21,960
Speaker 1: we see produced today, they're not afraid of humans, which

1800
01:47:21,960 --> 01:47:23,920
Speaker 1: is another major problem when it comes to people that

1801
01:47:24,040 --> 01:47:28,240
Speaker 1: have shot condors, which still happens today unfortunately. But they're

1802
01:47:28,280 --> 01:47:31,160
Speaker 1: not fearful of humans because we're a predator and they

1803
01:47:31,240 --> 01:47:33,479
Speaker 1: probably followed predators. Can you imagine in one of those

1804
01:47:33,479 --> 01:47:35,639
Speaker 1: old buffles, they don't look at us as a predator

1805
01:47:35,720 --> 01:47:37,680
Speaker 1: of them, of them, but they look at us as

1806
01:47:37,720 --> 01:47:40,400
Speaker 1: a predator that produces carrying were a food source. So

1807
01:47:40,520 --> 01:47:42,479
Speaker 1: can you imagine one of those buffalo jumps if there

1808
01:47:42,560 --> 01:47:45,519
Speaker 1: were condors that extended out into the planes, you know,

1809
01:47:45,640 --> 01:47:49,040
Speaker 1: which is entirely possible, and how that would have supported

1810
01:47:49,080 --> 01:47:52,759
Speaker 1: a population of condors long after you know, the natives

1811
01:47:52,840 --> 01:47:56,080
Speaker 1: left and there's there's so many tangents here. Well yeah,

1812
01:47:56,080 --> 01:47:57,800
Speaker 1: and look, well this this is all great, but in

1813
01:47:58,120 --> 01:48:01,599
Speaker 1: the interest of time, let's let's up to something. Uh.

1814
01:48:03,640 --> 01:48:06,000
Speaker 1: Out of that research, and I'm sure that there was

1815
01:48:06,280 --> 01:48:10,000
Speaker 1: plenty of fighting and suing, okay, but out of that

1816
01:48:10,160 --> 01:48:14,720
Speaker 1: research we get what I brought up initially, hunters and

1817
01:48:14,840 --> 01:48:18,400
Speaker 1: their ammunition, and we came to know about the condor

1818
01:48:18,680 --> 01:48:23,920
Speaker 1: recovery area, and folks were introduced to the idea of

1819
01:48:24,760 --> 01:48:31,240
Speaker 1: the FURST, the first widespread ammal restriction since the water

1820
01:48:31,360 --> 01:48:38,040
Speaker 1: foul the first widespread ammal restriction since the waterfowl. All right,

1821
01:48:38,080 --> 01:48:40,479
Speaker 1: you're jumping. I'm gonna have to back you up though,

1822
01:48:40,560 --> 01:48:44,360
Speaker 1: because you're jumping straight to the ban in California. I assume. Yeah,

1823
01:48:44,400 --> 01:48:47,320
Speaker 1: it wasn't that, Like, well, it's it's spread to other places, right,

1824
01:48:47,640 --> 01:48:51,120
Speaker 1: like portions of Arizona had were in the condo recovery area. No. Yeah,

1825
01:48:51,960 --> 01:48:56,160
Speaker 1: the recovery, the addressing the lead issue as it was

1826
01:48:56,600 --> 01:49:02,080
Speaker 1: UM defined by condors. Addressing that began in Arizona and

1827
01:49:02,200 --> 01:49:06,240
Speaker 1: Utah long before the band in California. Yeah, and our

1828
01:49:06,280 --> 01:49:09,120
Speaker 1: approach was entirely differently. Okay, well that's always trying to

1829
01:49:09,640 --> 01:49:12,240
Speaker 1: I don't know the history. I just wanted to bump

1830
01:49:12,240 --> 01:49:14,560
Speaker 1: along and like sending the interest of time. You bet, so,

1831
01:49:14,680 --> 01:49:17,200
Speaker 1: let me give you the fast track. So from early

1832
01:49:17,280 --> 01:49:20,439
Speaker 1: two thousand's two thousand uh four or five, we did

1833
01:49:20,479 --> 01:49:23,040
Speaker 1: the Dear Study. UM put out a few more studies

1834
01:49:23,040 --> 01:49:26,000
Speaker 1: showing that the coincidence of increased lead exposure and let

1835
01:49:26,080 --> 01:49:28,920
Speaker 1: cause mortality in the hunting season, And then we went

1836
01:49:29,000 --> 01:49:31,040
Speaker 1: to Arizona game and fish. We built a program to

1837
01:49:31,640 --> 01:49:33,760
Speaker 1: share this information with hunters and asked hunters that they

1838
01:49:33,800 --> 01:49:36,479
Speaker 1: would consider using non lead Arizona game, and Fish took

1839
01:49:36,479 --> 01:49:37,960
Speaker 1: it a step further and said, hey, if you get

1840
01:49:38,040 --> 01:49:40,200
Speaker 1: drawn for a kaibab tag, which is the one once

1841
01:49:40,240 --> 01:49:42,760
Speaker 1: a decade thing, if you're lucky, we're gonna also give

1842
01:49:42,760 --> 01:49:45,280
Speaker 1: you two free boxes non lead ammunition. We need your

1843
01:49:45,360 --> 01:49:49,040
Speaker 1: help to address this problem for condors. Within three years,

1844
01:49:49,640 --> 01:49:54,960
Speaker 1: there's on a game and Fish reached voluntary participation within

1845
01:49:55,160 --> 01:49:57,920
Speaker 1: three years. Seeing the reason I back you up is

1846
01:49:58,000 --> 01:50:01,000
Speaker 1: because nobody knows this part of the Condoran lead story.

1847
01:50:01,120 --> 01:50:03,559
Speaker 1: All they know is what happened in California, and I'm

1848
01:50:03,600 --> 01:50:05,479
Speaker 1: gonna get to that for the sake of time. But

1849
01:50:06,560 --> 01:50:09,280
Speaker 1: for the last twelve years, I didn't know. I never

1850
01:50:09,960 --> 01:50:12,840
Speaker 1: I didn't know about the ammo. Yeah, yeah, I don't

1851
01:50:12,880 --> 01:50:15,519
Speaker 1: know that there was a voluntary components, that a voluntary opponent.

1852
01:50:15,560 --> 01:50:18,799
Speaker 1: It was comprised of voluntary activities. And and to be further,

1853
01:50:19,280 --> 01:50:22,280
Speaker 1: um uh, I hardly know what to say to to

1854
01:50:22,479 --> 01:50:26,919
Speaker 1: be a better bunch of conservation scientists and wildlife managers

1855
01:50:27,200 --> 01:50:30,800
Speaker 1: who are all hunters. We said, and if you just

1856
01:50:31,000 --> 01:50:32,720
Speaker 1: can't get the stuff to shooting your gun, or we

1857
01:50:32,720 --> 01:50:35,360
Speaker 1: don't have there at caliber, you can still help prevent

1858
01:50:35,760 --> 01:50:40,439
Speaker 1: that potential exposure and that prevents potential poisoning by hauling

1859
01:50:40,479 --> 01:50:42,920
Speaker 1: your gut pile of the field. And when we first

1860
01:50:42,960 --> 01:50:44,960
Speaker 1: proposed that, some people like who the hell's gonna haul

1861
01:50:45,000 --> 01:50:46,800
Speaker 1: a gup pile out of the field, I was like, well,

1862
01:50:46,920 --> 01:50:49,200
Speaker 1: if you make that Cabella's gift certificate, they might win

1863
01:50:49,280 --> 01:50:50,880
Speaker 1: big enough. I can tell you a lot of folks

1864
01:50:50,920 --> 01:50:58,200
Speaker 1: that would. And it worked even with the ammunition shortages

1865
01:50:58,400 --> 01:51:00,719
Speaker 1: of late which I know is something you to talk about,

1866
01:51:01,040 --> 01:51:04,840
Speaker 1: and the price and price and availability. Even with that

1867
01:51:05,120 --> 01:51:09,040
Speaker 1: being an imposition last year, the hunters in Arizona continued

1868
01:51:09,360 --> 01:51:11,920
Speaker 1: to participate and they just transitioned if they couldn't get

1869
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:16,439
Speaker 1: the AMMO, they still participated and helped wildlife because they

1870
01:51:16,479 --> 01:51:19,200
Speaker 1: were asked to do so, and we incentivised it to

1871
01:51:19,439 --> 01:51:22,519
Speaker 1: to say thank you. And even though there was fewer

1872
01:51:22,680 --> 01:51:25,040
Speaker 1: rounds of non let AMMO available for use last year,

1873
01:51:25,360 --> 01:51:31,080
Speaker 1: we saw the same annual participation. It's annual over that

1874
01:51:31,160 --> 01:51:34,160
Speaker 1: twelve year time for it. So nobody talks about that.

1875
01:51:34,320 --> 01:51:37,040
Speaker 1: And so when when California. It all started in California.

1876
01:51:37,360 --> 01:51:41,760
Speaker 1: It started because litigious based groups who quote unquote do

1877
01:51:41,880 --> 01:51:46,960
Speaker 1: conservation started with California. Because California was easy pickings because

1878
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:49,479
Speaker 1: of the way the politics are there, And so when

1879
01:51:49,520 --> 01:51:52,640
Speaker 1: those groups started threatening litigation and saying you have to

1880
01:51:52,720 --> 01:51:56,160
Speaker 1: do a ban or else, I ended up over there

1881
01:51:56,200 --> 01:51:58,759
Speaker 1: talking to the Commission on two separate occasions, on behalf

1882
01:51:58,840 --> 01:52:01,400
Speaker 1: of the condor program AM and the research that had

1883
01:52:01,439 --> 01:52:03,519
Speaker 1: really put a lot of this on the map. And

1884
01:52:03,640 --> 01:52:05,519
Speaker 1: I was there at the Commission meetings saying no, no, no,

1885
01:52:06,160 --> 01:52:09,320
Speaker 1: I'm We're saying this information is new and it's real

1886
01:52:09,560 --> 01:52:13,080
Speaker 1: and it's worthy of consideration. But we're saying the assumption

1887
01:52:13,240 --> 01:52:16,280
Speaker 1: that a ban is the only solution. We're not quite convinced.

1888
01:52:16,600 --> 01:52:19,080
Speaker 1: And we have a perfect case in point here in

1889
01:52:19,120 --> 01:52:22,680
Speaker 1: Arizona and later into Utah that shows that you can

1890
01:52:22,760 --> 01:52:25,439
Speaker 1: work with hunters and ask for their help and share

1891
01:52:25,479 --> 01:52:28,519
Speaker 1: with them the information, and you can seek maybe higher

1892
01:52:28,560 --> 01:52:31,080
Speaker 1: rates of participation. Then you may even get with compliance

1893
01:52:31,120 --> 01:52:35,280
Speaker 1: with the law, especially if it comes from the angle

1894
01:52:35,360 --> 01:52:39,000
Speaker 1: of approach that it's coming. So that the crap deal

1895
01:52:39,120 --> 01:52:41,240
Speaker 1: for the way that went down in California, and the

1896
01:52:41,280 --> 01:52:43,760
Speaker 1: crap deal for why I'm hesitant to talk about lead

1897
01:52:43,840 --> 01:52:46,160
Speaker 1: and condors unless we do it the right way, which

1898
01:52:46,439 --> 01:52:49,240
Speaker 1: sharing our story I think is a better way. Is

1899
01:52:49,400 --> 01:52:52,600
Speaker 1: that it turned into a political quagmire where if you

1900
01:52:52,720 --> 01:52:55,240
Speaker 1: were talking about non lead today you're talking about oh,

1901
01:52:55,320 --> 01:52:58,040
Speaker 1: your condor lover. And I even had a mutual friend

1902
01:52:58,080 --> 01:52:59,800
Speaker 1: I won't say his name here, but a mutual friend

1903
01:52:59,800 --> 01:53:01,400
Speaker 1: of ours. He said, yeah, but you're a raptor nut.

1904
01:53:01,479 --> 01:53:04,760
Speaker 1: I said, no, I'm not. I'm a hunter conservation nut.

1905
01:53:06,240 --> 01:53:09,960
Speaker 1: The condor or another species is symbolic of what we

1906
01:53:10,120 --> 01:53:12,200
Speaker 1: as a society or capable. The guy we're talking about

1907
01:53:12,240 --> 01:53:19,040
Speaker 1: real smart. Yeah, I'm smart and very energetic. Yeah. And

1908
01:53:19,200 --> 01:53:21,880
Speaker 1: you yeah, yeah, anybody. And he'll know that I'm talking

1909
01:53:21,920 --> 01:53:24,200
Speaker 1: about him, because when he talks about this issue, he

1910
01:53:24,280 --> 01:53:26,600
Speaker 1: knows I'm gonna call him right after, right after the

1911
01:53:26,840 --> 01:53:30,360
Speaker 1: the oh, I almost gave too much away, right after

1912
01:53:30,479 --> 01:53:35,760
Speaker 1: some of their media um outputs go go live. God,

1913
01:53:35,920 --> 01:53:40,320
Speaker 1: I gave way too much anyway, um deep Yeah, there

1914
01:53:40,400 --> 01:53:43,280
Speaker 1: you go, so so for me. And I told him this,

1915
01:53:43,360 --> 01:53:45,519
Speaker 1: I said, what I love about this is it the

1916
01:53:45,600 --> 01:53:50,360
Speaker 1: fact that we can combine hunting and conservation and science

1917
01:53:50,439 --> 01:53:54,040
Speaker 1: altogether and own it. We can walk away on this

1918
01:53:54,200 --> 01:53:56,400
Speaker 1: issue of lead poisoning and how it affects the condor

1919
01:53:56,560 --> 01:53:58,640
Speaker 1: or the eagle. Because there's those recent studies that you

1920
01:53:58,760 --> 01:54:02,200
Speaker 1: reported on col Um, you know, with with the limitations

1921
01:54:02,240 --> 01:54:04,720
Speaker 1: to the eagle populations and going down those paths of

1922
01:54:04,720 --> 01:54:06,760
Speaker 1: the arguments, well, eagles are doing eagles are doing great,

1923
01:54:06,760 --> 01:54:08,639
Speaker 1: so how can let be a problem. It was like, yeah,

1924
01:54:08,720 --> 01:54:11,840
Speaker 1: humans are too, so COVID doesn't matter, right, just the

1925
01:54:11,960 --> 01:54:16,000
Speaker 1: logic we use today. We really have to shape this conversation.

1926
01:54:16,160 --> 01:54:18,439
Speaker 1: And if we, as hunters who who believe we are

1927
01:54:18,600 --> 01:54:21,360
Speaker 1: leading the way in conservation, if we're not out there

1928
01:54:21,400 --> 01:54:23,519
Speaker 1: in the front talking about it, then it will go

1929
01:54:23,680 --> 01:54:26,160
Speaker 1: by the wayside of those groups who have the loudest voice,

1930
01:54:26,680 --> 01:54:29,320
Speaker 1: those groups who spend their money on campaigns and litigation

1931
01:54:29,880 --> 01:54:32,840
Speaker 1: um and telling everybody they're saving the condor by passing

1932
01:54:32,920 --> 01:54:35,160
Speaker 1: this law. But the reality of it is, and what

1933
01:54:35,320 --> 01:54:37,760
Speaker 1: we were guarding against and warning against when they were

1934
01:54:37,840 --> 01:54:40,400
Speaker 1: petitioning and and cowfish and wildlife was put in a

1935
01:54:40,440 --> 01:54:42,760
Speaker 1: tight spot because they're gonna be suited if they don't

1936
01:54:42,800 --> 01:54:46,080
Speaker 1: do something. And and I was very proud to be

1937
01:54:46,200 --> 01:54:48,800
Speaker 1: a biologist to scientists who was there saying, hey, I

1938
01:54:48,960 --> 01:54:51,600
Speaker 1: did some of that work. I'm my name is on

1939
01:54:51,720 --> 01:54:53,960
Speaker 1: those papers, and I'm telling you I'm not sure a

1940
01:54:54,000 --> 01:54:57,600
Speaker 1: band will solve the problem. It'll change the law, which

1941
01:54:57,680 --> 01:55:00,680
Speaker 1: sounds good. But if people think that it's all um,

1942
01:55:00,960 --> 01:55:03,680
Speaker 1: you know, mocked up and and it's about an attack

1943
01:55:03,760 --> 01:55:07,040
Speaker 1: on our rights as hunters. I won't say we predicted it.

1944
01:55:07,160 --> 01:55:09,240
Speaker 1: It was obvious you didn't. Nobody had to predict it.

1945
01:55:09,880 --> 01:55:12,200
Speaker 1: And when that happened, that what the perception would be.

1946
01:55:12,320 --> 01:55:16,680
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, And now guess what, lead poisoning still occurring?

1947
01:55:16,920 --> 01:55:19,760
Speaker 1: Where it lead his band? And and to those people

1948
01:55:19,800 --> 01:55:21,920
Speaker 1: who believe that the band was the only solution, I

1949
01:55:22,040 --> 01:55:24,840
Speaker 1: said to them, so if you are successful in your band,

1950
01:55:25,120 --> 01:55:26,720
Speaker 1: you have your parade in the streets, you say you

1951
01:55:26,800 --> 01:55:29,200
Speaker 1: solve the problem. You know. The crappy thing for us

1952
01:55:29,240 --> 01:55:31,040
Speaker 1: who are out there monitoring and watching taking care of

1953
01:55:31,120 --> 01:55:34,280
Speaker 1: these condors, they're still gonna be lead poisoned. And they're

1954
01:55:34,280 --> 01:55:36,400
Speaker 1: still gonna be lead poison because people are gonna say, yeah,

1955
01:55:36,440 --> 01:55:38,360
Speaker 1: I realize it's a law, but I think it's bullshit,

1956
01:55:39,320 --> 01:55:42,560
Speaker 1: So I'm not gonna worry about it. And it's unenforceable.

1957
01:55:43,120 --> 01:55:45,240
Speaker 1: Can you tell the difference between a polymer tip solid

1958
01:55:45,320 --> 01:55:50,560
Speaker 1: copper bullet versus a polymer tip lead core copper, Yeah,

1959
01:55:50,640 --> 01:55:53,760
Speaker 1: you can't tell. So there are all these issues that

1960
01:55:53,840 --> 01:55:56,680
Speaker 1: we were pointing out and saying, guys, don't get the

1961
01:55:56,760 --> 01:56:00,120
Speaker 1: cart before the horse here, do what we're doing, and

1962
01:56:00,200 --> 01:56:02,480
Speaker 1: not because we were right, but because we were seeing success.

1963
01:56:03,120 --> 01:56:05,400
Speaker 1: Hunters are responding in kind. We're the only people with

1964
01:56:05,480 --> 01:56:08,720
Speaker 1: the study and the study has this type of results, right,

1965
01:56:09,200 --> 01:56:11,440
Speaker 1: And then we would say and then finally I would

1966
01:56:11,480 --> 01:56:13,120
Speaker 1: just say, and I know, I'm I'm I'm going on

1967
01:56:13,200 --> 01:56:17,120
Speaker 1: too long about this too, but um I said, if

1968
01:56:18,160 --> 01:56:20,000
Speaker 1: hunters are the only ones that can solve this problem,

1969
01:56:21,040 --> 01:56:24,080
Speaker 1: so do you want to alienate them? That's an interesting

1970
01:56:24,160 --> 01:56:27,920
Speaker 1: point because that's part of the waterfowl ban was that

1971
01:56:28,920 --> 01:56:31,400
Speaker 1: North Dakota Game and Fish kind of hung their hat

1972
01:56:31,560 --> 01:56:34,800
Speaker 1: on that. They did, like, uh, they put on shooting

1973
01:56:34,840 --> 01:56:38,080
Speaker 1: clinics for hunters and they're like, we're gonna teach you

1974
01:56:38,160 --> 01:56:40,160
Speaker 1: how to shoot with Steele. We're gonna teach you that

1975
01:56:40,320 --> 01:56:43,880
Speaker 1: Steele isn't some awful thing. And you know, they spent

1976
01:56:43,960 --> 01:56:47,400
Speaker 1: the time and money to to work with hunters. Put

1977
01:56:47,480 --> 01:56:51,800
Speaker 1: on today like shooting clinics, show them lead poisoning, all this,

1978
01:56:52,000 --> 01:56:56,640
Speaker 1: and the hunters leave it and there they're positive about it.

1979
01:56:56,840 --> 01:56:59,400
Speaker 1: So I'm so glad you brought that up, because that

1980
01:56:59,640 --> 01:57:01,880
Speaker 1: is the foundation that I've laid for you, and what

1981
01:57:02,000 --> 01:57:05,080
Speaker 1: we experienced in Arizona and Utah is the philosophy and

1982
01:57:05,200 --> 01:57:08,120
Speaker 1: foundation that gave rise to the North American on lead partnership.

1983
01:57:08,480 --> 01:57:10,200
Speaker 1: And I hope someday we can come back with my

1984
01:57:10,400 --> 01:57:13,840
Speaker 1: co founder Leland Brown and talk about that partnership, because

1985
01:57:14,040 --> 01:57:17,520
Speaker 1: that's exactly what we're doing. So state agencies are are

1986
01:57:18,200 --> 01:57:22,040
Speaker 1: rightfully so they're concerned about the public perception about how

1987
01:57:22,320 --> 01:57:24,080
Speaker 1: big a deal is this lead thing? Do we need

1988
01:57:24,160 --> 01:57:26,760
Speaker 1: to do anything? And we're saying, hey, we can help

1989
01:57:26,800 --> 01:57:29,320
Speaker 1: you with that. We've already done it, and we did

1990
01:57:29,400 --> 01:57:31,600
Speaker 1: it in the range of the condor where it's even

1991
01:57:31,640 --> 01:57:34,200
Speaker 1: more contentious. But if you want to have this conversation

1992
01:57:34,280 --> 01:57:37,680
Speaker 1: about the potential for lead exposure and how to prevent

1993
01:57:38,160 --> 01:57:41,720
Speaker 1: the potential for lead exposure as a as an opportunity

1994
01:57:41,840 --> 01:57:48,480
Speaker 1: for an ethically minded, uh conservation minded hunter, we can

1995
01:57:48,600 --> 01:57:50,840
Speaker 1: we can give you confidence that this will resonate well

1996
01:57:50,920 --> 01:57:53,360
Speaker 1: with him. Let me let me uh, let me lay

1997
01:57:53,400 --> 01:57:58,560
Speaker 1: one on you. UM. I'll start off by saying you

1998
01:57:58,600 --> 01:58:01,320
Speaker 1: can comment on this comment. Start up by saying this

1999
01:58:01,440 --> 01:58:04,360
Speaker 1: goes beyond the problem with lead poison, or I don't

2000
01:58:04,360 --> 01:58:05,720
Speaker 1: even want to use value. I don't want to use

2001
01:58:05,800 --> 01:58:14,440
Speaker 1: value laid in terminology rafters. Besides condors, cannon do die

2002
01:58:14,560 --> 01:58:24,880
Speaker 1: from lead ingestion. Okay. Um, people who are uneasy or

2003
01:58:25,040 --> 01:58:29,280
Speaker 1: outright opposed to bands, as we discussed in California, where

2004
01:58:29,360 --> 01:58:31,640
Speaker 1: moves it beyond hunter choice? Okay, and you just raise

2005
01:58:31,680 --> 01:58:35,920
Speaker 1: your hand. So so people who oppose lead bands, yeah,

2006
01:58:35,960 --> 01:58:40,880
Speaker 1: and I don't oppose it, but go ahead, some people do. Yeah, Okay,

2007
01:58:41,640 --> 01:58:46,080
Speaker 1: I'm very like I'm not. I'm highly highly uneasy with

2008
01:58:46,200 --> 01:58:51,320
Speaker 1: the idea of a lead band when you could get

2009
01:58:51,440 --> 01:58:55,720
Speaker 1: with compliance and technology gradually land in a similar place.

2010
01:58:56,840 --> 01:58:59,320
Speaker 1: So to the point where now if you had someone

2011
01:58:59,560 --> 01:59:01,280
Speaker 1: like if you come to me and said I could

2012
01:59:01,320 --> 01:59:06,800
Speaker 1: shoot uh letter Bismuth, right, like, I'll shoot business. Well,

2013
01:59:06,800 --> 01:59:09,040
Speaker 1: it's really expensive, but it performs well. So you have

2014
01:59:09,120 --> 01:59:13,040
Speaker 1: a technology function outside of any conversation, like, outside of

2015
01:59:13,080 --> 01:59:16,440
Speaker 1: any conversation about lead I know a lot of guys

2016
01:59:16,640 --> 01:59:21,600
Speaker 1: that shoot copper bullets. Yeah, okay, outside of it, Like

2017
01:59:21,680 --> 01:59:24,000
Speaker 1: they could be not even aware of the debate, but

2018
01:59:24,040 --> 01:59:26,840
Speaker 1: they're switching for issues of performance and other stuff. Okay,

2019
01:59:27,400 --> 01:59:29,720
Speaker 1: there's a cost factor, but I'm strange from what my

2020
01:59:29,760 --> 01:59:32,440
Speaker 1: point is going to be someone who's gonna come and say, like,

2021
01:59:33,760 --> 01:59:38,720
Speaker 1: I am gonna resist any kind of mandate that tells

2022
01:59:39,240 --> 01:59:42,840
Speaker 1: shooters what they have to use. And someone says, what

2023
01:59:42,920 --> 01:59:46,360
Speaker 1: about the fact that that raptors die from lead, They

2024
01:59:46,400 --> 01:59:52,120
Speaker 1: would say, uh, raptors die from collisions with glass, Raptors

2025
01:59:52,240 --> 01:59:56,560
Speaker 1: die from wind turbans, Raptors get hit by vehicles and die.

2026
01:59:57,680 --> 02:00:00,280
Speaker 1: Raptors die all manner of ways. They die from lighting

2027
02:00:00,320 --> 02:00:04,560
Speaker 1: with fences. Um, why is there not a conversation about

2028
02:00:05,600 --> 02:00:09,400
Speaker 1: we can't have fences, we can't have glass windshields, we

2029
02:00:09,520 --> 02:00:13,720
Speaker 1: can't have glass sky rises. Why do you seem to

2030
02:00:13,880 --> 02:00:19,480
Speaker 1: not care about all these significant causes of death but

2031
02:00:19,640 --> 02:00:24,040
Speaker 1: you care about this one. And they'll say this, we're

2032
02:00:24,080 --> 02:00:28,200
Speaker 1: not talking about population level impact. They might say there's

2033
02:00:28,320 --> 02:00:31,120
Speaker 1: like this is an argument, and they're saying, sure, some die,

2034
02:00:32,200 --> 02:00:36,120
Speaker 1: they all die eventually, many die from many causes, but

2035
02:00:36,360 --> 02:00:42,080
Speaker 1: short of their being population level impact, it doesn't matter. Beautiful,

2036
02:00:42,080 --> 02:00:44,240
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought this up. Okay, So that's that's

2037
02:00:44,360 --> 02:00:48,560
Speaker 1: a way of that's a not a fringe, not a

2038
02:00:48,600 --> 02:00:52,040
Speaker 1: fringe viewpoint. No, And what I would what I would

2039
02:00:52,160 --> 02:00:54,760
Speaker 1: enter into that because there's there's several things you need

2040
02:00:54,800 --> 02:00:58,440
Speaker 1: to impact there. Um. The first of which is yes,

2041
02:00:59,120 --> 02:01:02,280
Speaker 1: lead is not in many cases of population limiting effect

2042
02:01:02,320 --> 02:01:04,680
Speaker 1: for those other raptors. It's only proven to be so

2043
02:01:05,040 --> 02:01:08,600
Speaker 1: right now. Well, it can affect populations. That's that latest

2044
02:01:08,680 --> 02:01:11,520
Speaker 1: latest paper in science pretty much nailed that UM, and

2045
02:01:11,880 --> 02:01:15,520
Speaker 1: the condor is obviously affected a population limit limiting level,

2046
02:01:15,880 --> 02:01:19,120
Speaker 1: population limiting level. But they're all affecting population. But you

2047
02:01:19,200 --> 02:01:22,879
Speaker 1: can't say it's not either. But the argument it shouldn't

2048
02:01:22,880 --> 02:01:26,640
Speaker 1: be about that there are programs to educate and mitigate

2049
02:01:26,760 --> 02:01:29,320
Speaker 1: for all those other cause of mortality. Look at the

2050
02:01:29,360 --> 02:01:31,600
Speaker 1: stuff we're seeing about Ferrell cats right now, not that

2051
02:01:31,680 --> 02:01:34,480
Speaker 1: they're out killing eagles. But my point is, UM, there

2052
02:01:34,520 --> 02:01:39,560
Speaker 1: are programs out there, just hasn't been proven yet, but

2053
02:01:39,720 --> 02:01:43,160
Speaker 1: there are programs that do address it. The sticking point

2054
02:01:43,560 --> 02:01:48,000
Speaker 1: is are there programs problems and is addressed by let

2055
02:01:50,480 --> 02:01:53,000
Speaker 1: I won't get into the details of a law enforcement

2056
02:01:53,080 --> 02:01:55,560
Speaker 1: interview I had one time about the way I learned

2057
02:01:55,600 --> 02:01:57,600
Speaker 1: to shoot and whether it did or did not have

2058
02:01:57,640 --> 02:02:00,920
Speaker 1: anything to do with Ferrell cats, But UM, I won't

2059
02:02:00,960 --> 02:02:04,160
Speaker 1: get into that. UM. The point is is we're not

2060
02:02:04,320 --> 02:02:07,280
Speaker 1: talking about we we at the non the partnership or

2061
02:02:07,320 --> 02:02:09,320
Speaker 1: the Paragne fundering of our partners, and now we have

2062
02:02:09,440 --> 02:02:12,640
Speaker 1: over forty partners, including one of your else close outfits,

2063
02:02:12,720 --> 02:02:15,320
Speaker 1: First Light is one of our partners. We're not out

2064
02:02:15,400 --> 02:02:17,680
Speaker 1: there saying that the band's a solution. We're out there

2065
02:02:17,720 --> 02:02:21,880
Speaker 1: saying education, outreach, educating yourself, being able to make an

2066
02:02:21,920 --> 02:02:26,800
Speaker 1: informed decision. We are confident based on our experience in Arizona, Utah,

2067
02:02:26,960 --> 02:02:30,400
Speaker 1: now Oregon, beginning in Washington for new new partner to

2068
02:02:30,560 --> 02:02:33,720
Speaker 1: new partners to the two original of state agencies, we

2069
02:02:33,800 --> 02:02:36,280
Speaker 1: are confident that if you provide that information and you

2070
02:02:36,360 --> 02:02:40,640
Speaker 1: and you shape a path forward through Yes, incentives work great,

2071
02:02:40,840 --> 02:02:44,000
Speaker 1: and it's it's fun to maybe win something. Um that

2072
02:02:44,360 --> 02:02:49,440
Speaker 1: you can change people's perceptions, their awareness and that can

2073
02:02:49,600 --> 02:02:52,320
Speaker 1: lead to changes in behavior without telling them what to do.

2074
02:02:52,920 --> 02:02:54,760
Speaker 1: And me as a hunter, and that's why I'm so

2075
02:02:54,960 --> 02:02:57,600
Speaker 1: passionate about this. I want us to have our cake

2076
02:02:57,640 --> 02:02:59,640
Speaker 1: and eat it too. I want us to say when

2077
02:02:59,680 --> 02:03:03,480
Speaker 1: we a that hunters the original conservationists, Yeah, are they

2078
02:03:03,560 --> 02:03:06,440
Speaker 1: continuing to be? I hope what we're doing represents that

2079
02:03:07,040 --> 02:03:08,840
Speaker 1: because I want to be a hunter leading a way

2080
02:03:08,880 --> 02:03:12,240
Speaker 1: in conservation and far greater than any single species that

2081
02:03:12,360 --> 02:03:15,240
Speaker 1: we've prevented extinction from or or brought back to take

2082
02:03:15,280 --> 02:03:17,760
Speaker 1: them off of the endangered species list. All of those

2083
02:03:17,800 --> 02:03:20,720
Speaker 1: are testaments of what we're capable of. The way in

2084
02:03:20,760 --> 02:03:23,120
Speaker 1: which we go about it is the process that will

2085
02:03:23,120 --> 02:03:25,720
Speaker 1: see us through to the challenges in the future. It's

2086
02:03:25,760 --> 02:03:28,440
Speaker 1: well beyond a single species, and it's beyond a single

2087
02:03:28,520 --> 02:03:31,160
Speaker 1: issue like lead poisoning. There are other issues that are

2088
02:03:31,240 --> 02:03:33,160
Speaker 1: way bigger on the on the scale of things for

2089
02:03:33,200 --> 02:03:36,720
Speaker 1: wildlife management agencies to be dealing with. I I understand that.

2090
02:03:37,040 --> 02:03:39,560
Speaker 1: That's why I think we as a nonprofit, for example

2091
02:03:39,600 --> 02:03:42,120
Speaker 1: of the Paragrine Fund, that's why we we put our

2092
02:03:42,160 --> 02:03:44,880
Speaker 1: two cents in. We show our our We lead by

2093
02:03:44,960 --> 02:03:47,920
Speaker 1: example by saying we'll help you with that. That's why

2094
02:03:48,000 --> 02:03:50,480
Speaker 1: we co founded the non lad Partnership. You know what

2095
02:03:50,520 --> 02:03:52,160
Speaker 1: I forgot to do when I was laying out my

2096
02:03:52,600 --> 02:03:55,960
Speaker 1: no thing, I forgot to include this one which winds

2097
02:03:56,040 --> 02:03:57,960
Speaker 1: up in there and you continue unpacking the whole thing

2098
02:03:58,240 --> 02:04:02,960
Speaker 1: will be like, uh uh the bald eagle? Yeah, okay,

2099
02:04:03,600 --> 02:04:04,920
Speaker 1: what was it? What was the thing we did to

2100
02:04:04,960 --> 02:04:07,360
Speaker 1: save the bald eagle? What was the thing called silent

2101
02:04:07,440 --> 02:04:09,600
Speaker 1: spring and all that? Oh? Well, you are you talking

2102
02:04:09,600 --> 02:04:11,400
Speaker 1: about d d T or no, no, what was it?

2103
02:04:11,560 --> 02:04:14,400
Speaker 1: What was then there that made their eggs their eggshells

2104
02:04:15,240 --> 02:04:18,840
Speaker 1: and d d E, which is the residuees yea eggshell thinning. Well,

2105
02:04:18,960 --> 02:04:21,080
Speaker 1: I mean the paagrine falcon is probably a better example

2106
02:04:21,120 --> 02:04:23,680
Speaker 1: of that, but yeah, I mean the paregrine falcon was

2107
02:04:23,920 --> 02:04:27,280
Speaker 1: was was far greater affected. I mean it was oh yeah,

2108
02:04:27,360 --> 02:04:30,880
Speaker 1: they the paragn falcon. We we nearly lost because of that,

2109
02:04:31,000 --> 02:04:33,520
Speaker 1: and that obviously is thus the namesake of our organization,

2110
02:04:33,600 --> 02:04:36,280
Speaker 1: the Paragrin Fund. But that's why we were founded. Those

2111
02:04:36,320 --> 02:04:39,960
Speaker 1: falconers who noticed that populations of of Paragrine's were plummeting

2112
02:04:40,360 --> 02:04:42,760
Speaker 1: and wondering why and thought, well, we've we've got to

2113
02:04:42,800 --> 02:04:44,640
Speaker 1: be able to breathe these birds in captivity and re

2114
02:04:45,240 --> 02:04:47,920
Speaker 1: repopulate those areas. But we got to find out the problem,

2115
02:04:47,960 --> 02:04:50,080
Speaker 1: and the d d T was identified as the problem.

2116
02:04:50,560 --> 02:04:53,000
Speaker 1: And even though the science was there, kind of like

2117
02:04:53,040 --> 02:04:54,640
Speaker 1: what you were talking about with a hundred years of

2118
02:04:54,720 --> 02:04:57,560
Speaker 1: lead lead information, even though the science was there, one

2119
02:04:57,600 --> 02:04:58,720
Speaker 1: of the things that put it on the map was

2120
02:04:58,800 --> 02:05:02,040
Speaker 1: silent spring, you know, and like like Bell Rose, you know,

2121
02:05:02,120 --> 02:05:04,280
Speaker 1: Bell Rose was the guy who finally got it through

2122
02:05:04,320 --> 02:05:06,400
Speaker 1: to everyone. He was the Rachel Carson of I would

2123
02:05:06,520 --> 02:05:08,640
Speaker 1: argue that he was the guy at the time people

2124
02:05:08,720 --> 02:05:11,520
Speaker 1: finally came around to really accepting what was going on.

2125
02:05:11,720 --> 02:05:13,840
Speaker 1: He was the expert at the time. But it's never

2126
02:05:13,960 --> 02:05:16,600
Speaker 1: one person that finally did it, because you don't introduce

2127
02:05:16,680 --> 02:05:21,360
Speaker 1: something that's controversial, controversial that is going to require a

2128
02:05:21,440 --> 02:05:25,640
Speaker 1: great amount of change in human society's that that is

2129
02:05:25,960 --> 02:05:28,080
Speaker 1: listened to. They hear the case and they say, yeah,

2130
02:05:28,120 --> 02:05:29,400
Speaker 1: we're gonna do it, and then they do it. No,

2131
02:05:30,000 --> 02:05:31,720
Speaker 1: you hear about it, and the first one is called

2132
02:05:31,720 --> 02:05:36,080
Speaker 1: a radical, and then later on they're they're immortalized and talking,

2133
02:05:36,240 --> 02:05:43,360
Speaker 1: you know, exactly mountain from making a lot of wilderness,

2134
02:05:43,720 --> 02:05:46,120
Speaker 1: making a lot of forests and wilderness, and then everyone,

2135
02:05:46,400 --> 02:05:48,920
Speaker 1: every politician since then wants to compare himself to a

2136
02:05:49,000 --> 02:05:52,760
Speaker 1: guy that was ridicule yeah in his day, and and

2137
02:05:52,880 --> 02:05:55,200
Speaker 1: that's exactly beat pre hugging to some bitch on the

2138
02:05:55,240 --> 02:05:58,600
Speaker 1: plane exactly. So, uh, let me finish my bald eagle thing.

2139
02:05:58,800 --> 02:06:01,720
Speaker 1: I haven't gotten there yet. Sorry. Recently, there's a news

2140
02:06:01,800 --> 02:06:03,840
Speaker 1: story wing all day man, Well there's a news story.

2141
02:06:03,880 --> 02:06:05,280
Speaker 1: They got all kinds of pressed. I mean, in the

2142
02:06:05,400 --> 02:06:08,320
Speaker 1: last month or two some about like a prevalency of

2143
02:06:08,600 --> 02:06:12,360
Speaker 1: leading eagles, and people like, holy shit, these eagles all

2144
02:06:12,400 --> 02:06:14,360
Speaker 1: got lead at some point out home? Are we talking

2145
02:06:14,360 --> 02:06:20,000
Speaker 1: about the same bird that we quite famously removed from

2146
02:06:20,040 --> 02:06:23,720
Speaker 1: the Endangered Species Act protection because it's recovered and now

2147
02:06:23,840 --> 02:06:27,600
Speaker 1: it's everywhere and you don't even comment on bald eagles anymore.

2148
02:06:27,880 --> 02:06:29,920
Speaker 1: Is this the bird we're talking about that's getting killed

2149
02:06:29,960 --> 02:06:32,080
Speaker 1: by lead? Well, they do, they do in Alaska. They

2150
02:06:32,120 --> 02:06:35,880
Speaker 1: comment about that bird. Yeah, like at our fish chack.

2151
02:06:36,320 --> 02:06:39,400
Speaker 1: I think someone once counted right in a in a

2152
02:06:39,400 --> 02:06:42,320
Speaker 1: collection trees. But I'm saying that so like, on one hand,

2153
02:06:42,640 --> 02:06:45,080
Speaker 1: the media is running with this ball eagle thing. On

2154
02:06:45,080 --> 02:06:46,520
Speaker 1: the other hand, people are like, but hol on man,

2155
02:06:46,560 --> 02:06:48,200
Speaker 1: I thought that was like one of the great conservation

2156
02:06:48,280 --> 02:06:52,320
Speaker 1: success stories. How bad could the lead be? Yeah? Absolutely,

2157
02:06:52,440 --> 02:06:56,360
Speaker 1: And that's my point. It's not about does it affect

2158
02:06:56,400 --> 02:06:59,200
Speaker 1: a single species to the point where they might we

2159
02:06:59,320 --> 02:07:01,880
Speaker 1: might lose them. That's not the stake of the game.

2160
02:07:02,000 --> 02:07:07,440
Speaker 1: The game is understanding and having the information to be

2161
02:07:07,520 --> 02:07:10,960
Speaker 1: able to comprehend the system and be able to make

2162
02:07:11,000 --> 02:07:15,320
Speaker 1: wise choices. Because what's the one of the first tenants

2163
02:07:15,360 --> 02:07:20,040
Speaker 1: of of hunter education, No you're no your targetget beyond Well,

2164
02:07:20,200 --> 02:07:22,840
Speaker 1: there's a new dimension of this and I want, I want,

2165
02:07:23,280 --> 02:07:25,360
Speaker 1: I won't steal this because this is Leland Brown, my

2166
02:07:25,400 --> 02:07:28,040
Speaker 1: co founder that works for the organ Zoo was beyond

2167
02:07:28,080 --> 02:07:31,480
Speaker 1: the target. Yeah, this is a new dimension. We own

2168
02:07:31,560 --> 02:07:34,000
Speaker 1: that bullet. We're responsible to make sure it hits the

2169
02:07:34,080 --> 02:07:36,600
Speaker 1: target we intend to kill. And if we do our job,

2170
02:07:36,720 --> 02:07:39,440
Speaker 1: and we know our equipment, it does its job. What

2171
02:07:39,600 --> 02:07:41,960
Speaker 1: about after we leave and the remains of that bullet

2172
02:07:42,000 --> 02:07:44,320
Speaker 1: are there. All we want to do is make sure

2173
02:07:44,400 --> 02:07:48,040
Speaker 1: people know that there's a potential potential for that to

2174
02:07:48,080 --> 02:07:51,080
Speaker 1: poison a bird. Now, if it does poison a bird,

2175
02:07:51,160 --> 02:07:53,760
Speaker 1: does that mean that we're gonna lose that species that

2176
02:07:53,840 --> 02:07:56,800
Speaker 1: they did? That's not the point, folks. It's like leaving

2177
02:07:56,840 --> 02:07:59,720
Speaker 1: trash in the forest. Right, We're not telling people. Look,

2178
02:08:00,000 --> 02:08:02,560
Speaker 1: it's banned. It's it is banned. You can't leave trash

2179
02:08:02,600 --> 02:08:04,680
Speaker 1: in the forest. It doesn't mean that's what people do.

2180
02:08:05,560 --> 02:08:08,200
Speaker 1: You know, doesn't mean something's gonna die. Pick up your paper, right.

2181
02:08:08,320 --> 02:08:11,320
Speaker 1: I mean it's a good thing to do for ecosystem health.

2182
02:08:11,960 --> 02:08:13,920
Speaker 1: We want people to think about it that way, not

2183
02:08:14,160 --> 02:08:16,240
Speaker 1: that if we don't do it, we'll lose a species.

2184
02:08:16,520 --> 02:08:20,160
Speaker 1: I think that paradigm of that style of conservation is

2185
02:08:20,440 --> 02:08:24,879
Speaker 1: over because one, the science is still science, it's still evolving,

2186
02:08:24,920 --> 02:08:28,160
Speaker 1: and there's still the pera viewed process that that tests

2187
02:08:28,400 --> 02:08:31,480
Speaker 1: the science and our assumptions of what we know. That's

2188
02:08:31,480 --> 02:08:35,680
Speaker 1: an ever ongoing thing. But the thing is the way

2189
02:08:35,760 --> 02:08:38,600
Speaker 1: we do conservation, because now people don't trust the science

2190
02:08:38,920 --> 02:08:40,680
Speaker 1: and they don't know who to trust when they're talking

2191
02:08:40,720 --> 02:08:44,040
Speaker 1: about whatever. You know, PhD on this side and on

2192
02:08:44,160 --> 02:08:47,320
Speaker 1: that side of every every issue. Um, we need. This

2193
02:08:47,440 --> 02:08:49,440
Speaker 1: is a new paradigm of conservation, and I think we

2194
02:08:49,560 --> 02:08:51,000
Speaker 1: just have to go back and do the hard work

2195
02:08:51,040 --> 02:08:54,840
Speaker 1: and earning relationships and trust so that you can share

2196
02:08:54,880 --> 02:08:57,240
Speaker 1: it in the way that in some form or fashion

2197
02:08:57,280 --> 02:09:00,120
Speaker 1: we've been able to share share here today. Um, you've

2198
02:09:00,120 --> 02:09:03,040
Speaker 1: got to build that that trust before people are going

2199
02:09:03,080 --> 02:09:06,200
Speaker 1: to change their behavior because once again, just like those

2200
02:09:06,240 --> 02:09:11,240
Speaker 1: species that don't adapt well to major perturbations in an environment,

2201
02:09:12,120 --> 02:09:17,240
Speaker 1: we don't adapt well to major change either. Uh, you're

2202
02:09:17,240 --> 02:09:19,960
Speaker 1: not a physicist, you're not a human physiologist. And that's

2203
02:09:20,040 --> 02:09:22,000
Speaker 1: I know you're gonna ask about human health. Well let's

2204
02:09:22,040 --> 02:09:23,640
Speaker 1: do it. I'm not gonna ask about it. I'm gonna

2205
02:09:23,680 --> 02:09:28,160
Speaker 1: comment on it, all, right, Uh, no one has been

2206
02:09:28,240 --> 02:09:33,840
Speaker 1: able to tie in a way that that achieves some

2207
02:09:33,960 --> 02:09:37,320
Speaker 1: sort of academic consensus. No one has been able to

2208
02:09:37,440 --> 02:09:43,240
Speaker 1: tie hunting eating wild game meat with adverse health effects

2209
02:09:43,480 --> 02:09:45,240
Speaker 1: due to lead. In fact, remember they did this thing

2210
02:09:45,280 --> 02:09:48,160
Speaker 1: where they went and looked at North Dakota hunters to

2211
02:09:48,200 --> 02:09:49,920
Speaker 1: see how much lead they had, and they're like, oh,

2212
02:09:50,040 --> 02:09:52,480
Speaker 1: some of these hunters have elevated lead, but the average

2213
02:09:52,600 --> 02:09:55,200
Speaker 1: they had less. They had less lead in their system

2214
02:09:55,640 --> 02:09:59,520
Speaker 1: than urban nights who don't eat wild game because exposure

2215
02:09:59,520 --> 02:10:02,120
Speaker 1: comes from a a ways, lead paint, soil, all the

2216
02:10:02,320 --> 02:10:04,720
Speaker 1: leaded gasoline burning prologies. Right, So I don't want I

2217
02:10:04,760 --> 02:10:06,760
Speaker 1: don't want to get into the and because you're not

2218
02:10:06,800 --> 02:10:09,240
Speaker 1: a human physiologist, you can comment on it. But I

2219
02:10:09,720 --> 02:10:13,880
Speaker 1: think it's like you can comment on it, not that

2220
02:10:14,000 --> 02:10:16,640
Speaker 1: I need to tell you what to comment on. I

2221
02:10:16,720 --> 02:10:20,720
Speaker 1: try and put this way. Do you contest? Do you

2222
02:10:20,840 --> 02:10:26,400
Speaker 1: contest my statement if I say there is no proof

2223
02:10:27,560 --> 02:10:33,040
Speaker 1: that hunters are suffering healthy facts not not leading their system,

2224
02:10:33,400 --> 02:10:39,920
Speaker 1: are suffering health effects greater than the American public in general. No,

2225
02:10:40,160 --> 02:10:43,720
Speaker 1: And I would not contest that. But what I would

2226
02:10:43,760 --> 02:10:47,080
Speaker 1: say is, and this is the way I treat this issue.

2227
02:10:47,160 --> 02:10:49,360
Speaker 1: Because if you lead with the human health issue and

2228
02:10:49,640 --> 02:10:51,360
Speaker 1: and you try to tell people what's good for him,

2229
02:10:52,040 --> 02:10:53,680
Speaker 1: but you're not here to talk about human health. I'm

2230
02:10:53,720 --> 02:10:55,120
Speaker 1: trying to get to a different point. But I don't

2231
02:10:55,160 --> 02:10:56,680
Speaker 1: want to just leave it. I don't want to drop

2232
02:10:56,760 --> 02:10:59,400
Speaker 1: a hand grenade here and then walk away, right yeah

2233
02:11:00,000 --> 02:11:07,880
Speaker 1: atch it? UM? So so yeah, UM do I would

2234
02:11:07,880 --> 02:11:12,040
Speaker 1: I contest that, um, based on my interpretation the science,

2235
02:11:12,880 --> 02:11:15,160
Speaker 1: I would say I don't contest that that that the

2236
02:11:15,200 --> 02:11:18,240
Speaker 1: studies aren't conclusive that if you hunt and you eat

2237
02:11:18,320 --> 02:11:21,080
Speaker 1: the meat that you eat, UM, that you are suffering

2238
02:11:21,240 --> 02:11:24,520
Speaker 1: suffering delitarious effects of lead poisoning. However, I will say

2239
02:11:24,600 --> 02:11:27,320
Speaker 1: this that the science that goes along with our understanding

2240
02:11:27,400 --> 02:11:30,680
Speaker 1: of lead and its effects on humans. UM. The the

2241
02:11:30,960 --> 02:11:34,600
Speaker 1: median allowed blood or the allowed blood lead level when

2242
02:11:34,640 --> 02:11:36,000
Speaker 1: I was a kid and you were a kid I

2243
02:11:36,080 --> 02:11:39,000
Speaker 1: might be able to older than you, UM was like

2244
02:11:41,960 --> 02:11:47,680
Speaker 1: micrograms per desolader um. That's that's pretty pretty high the

2245
02:11:47,800 --> 02:11:50,840
Speaker 1: safe level today. UM. When you look at that CDC study,

2246
02:11:50,880 --> 02:11:52,760
Speaker 1: the one that followed the when you're talking about they

2247
02:11:52,760 --> 02:11:58,000
Speaker 1: said zero and so while while the zero how about

2248
02:11:58,680 --> 02:12:01,040
Speaker 1: because really when you think about it, there's there's no

2249
02:12:01,520 --> 02:12:05,000
Speaker 1: there's no species ever studied organism that uses that that

2250
02:12:05,360 --> 02:12:07,440
Speaker 1: that lead is a use of except us because it's

2251
02:12:07,440 --> 02:12:09,080
Speaker 1: great for amals. So when you look at all the yes,

2252
02:12:09,200 --> 02:12:12,600
Speaker 1: when you look at all the like like magnesium, potassium, like,

2253
02:12:12,720 --> 02:12:16,240
Speaker 1: there's no, there's no, like you didn't get your daily lead. Yeah,

2254
02:12:19,960 --> 02:12:22,560
Speaker 1: the way I answered that question, and just to to

2255
02:12:22,760 --> 02:12:25,160
Speaker 1: really and and again, we have some other mutual friends

2256
02:12:25,240 --> 02:12:27,040
Speaker 1: that have been on the podcast, and they have very

2257
02:12:27,040 --> 02:12:29,080
Speaker 1: strong feelings about it. Though you can't say that it

2258
02:12:29,200 --> 02:12:32,040
Speaker 1: is affecting human health. And then I hear the argument, well,

2259
02:12:32,080 --> 02:12:34,320
Speaker 1: you can't say it's not because when you have a

2260
02:12:34,400 --> 02:12:37,280
Speaker 1: lead poisoning amount, an amount of measurable lead in your system,

2261
02:12:37,600 --> 02:12:39,440
Speaker 1: how do you determine where it came from unless you're

2262
02:12:39,480 --> 02:12:42,760
Speaker 1: doing is topic analyses? And again does it matter? Here's

2263
02:12:42,760 --> 02:12:45,280
Speaker 1: where I go to. But but okay, but you can't

2264
02:12:45,360 --> 02:12:50,800
Speaker 1: sit here, and like I said, we can't and we

2265
02:12:50,920 --> 02:12:53,680
Speaker 1: can't be doing we can't be doing the follow the science,

2266
02:12:53,920 --> 02:12:56,080
Speaker 1: listen to the science. Follow the science. Will say, okay,

2267
02:12:56,280 --> 02:12:58,520
Speaker 1: let's all agree to follow the science. Okay, if we're

2268
02:12:58,520 --> 02:13:00,440
Speaker 1: gonna agree to follow the science, there's not a human

2269
02:13:00,480 --> 02:13:03,800
Speaker 1: health risk. It's supposition. You could argue that. Yeah, you

2270
02:13:03,840 --> 02:13:06,760
Speaker 1: could argue, so let's and people do. Okay, So if

2271
02:13:06,840 --> 02:13:09,280
Speaker 1: if like if we because I almost roll my eyes

2272
02:13:09,320 --> 02:13:10,960
Speaker 1: now when someone says they're gonna follow the science or

2273
02:13:10,960 --> 02:13:12,240
Speaker 1: they don't want to listen to the science, I'm like,

2274
02:13:12,480 --> 02:13:17,240
Speaker 1: you know why, because science is weaponized. They've burned. Like

2275
02:13:17,360 --> 02:13:19,480
Speaker 1: if I was gonna look not that the scientific community

2276
02:13:19,560 --> 02:13:21,240
Speaker 1: is monolithic, if I was going to give advice to

2277
02:13:21,280 --> 02:13:24,280
Speaker 1: the scientific community as a monolithic unit, I would say,

2278
02:13:24,760 --> 02:13:27,880
Speaker 1: don't let your research be weaponized, because it's so weaponized

2279
02:13:28,240 --> 02:13:31,720
Speaker 1: that when someone says follow the science, you can reasonably say,

2280
02:13:31,880 --> 02:13:35,520
Speaker 1: who's exactly? I agree? And what you need to do

2281
02:13:35,800 --> 02:13:38,000
Speaker 1: is use the products of science as a way of

2282
02:13:38,080 --> 02:13:41,160
Speaker 1: informing yourself. But it doesn't mean it's the holy grail.

2283
02:13:41,560 --> 02:13:43,840
Speaker 1: I remember asking research your body mind, he's working on something.

2284
02:13:43,880 --> 02:13:45,840
Speaker 1: I said, what do you hope happens? Because I don't

2285
02:13:45,840 --> 02:13:49,880
Speaker 1: hope anything. What are you talking about hope happens? Right? No?

2286
02:13:50,160 --> 02:13:52,640
Speaker 1: And what I was like, man, I would be rooting

2287
02:13:52,680 --> 02:13:54,760
Speaker 1: for that ship. I would point out to that, like

2288
02:13:54,960 --> 02:13:57,040
Speaker 1: following the science, if you do want to do that,

2289
02:13:57,240 --> 02:13:59,960
Speaker 1: that means actually, like clicking the links in the article.

2290
02:14:00,000 --> 02:14:03,800
Speaker 1: All that grabbed your attention, opening up the actual paper,

2291
02:14:04,760 --> 02:14:07,800
Speaker 1: and then reading that paper. Yeah, you usually find that

2292
02:14:08,200 --> 02:14:11,840
Speaker 1: the paper there's a lot less explosive than when it

2293
02:14:11,920 --> 02:14:14,080
Speaker 1: got picked up by the news agents. Sometimes you read

2294
02:14:14,120 --> 02:14:17,040
Speaker 1: it two or three different times to find out how

2295
02:14:18,040 --> 02:14:21,160
Speaker 1: that article that you started out with actually has anything

2296
02:14:21,240 --> 02:14:24,880
Speaker 1: to do with this paper. So, yeah, absolutely, and and

2297
02:14:25,040 --> 02:14:27,280
Speaker 1: so the way I usually answer that question is like, man,

2298
02:14:27,520 --> 02:14:29,520
Speaker 1: let me tell you about my experience. I had two

2299
02:14:29,600 --> 02:14:32,040
Speaker 1: youngsters at home when we were doing that deer study.

2300
02:14:32,080 --> 02:14:34,560
Speaker 1: We're shooting all those deer, and because we shoot eight

2301
02:14:34,640 --> 02:14:36,760
Speaker 1: or ten deer a day and we processed them all

2302
02:14:36,800 --> 02:14:39,320
Speaker 1: to take us all day, we wanted their carcass, the

2303
02:14:39,440 --> 02:14:42,240
Speaker 1: carcasses to be shipped out to the processors to make

2304
02:14:42,240 --> 02:14:44,960
Speaker 1: sure we had thirty different processors so it wouldn't biased

2305
02:14:45,040 --> 02:14:49,200
Speaker 1: by the Yeah. Yeah, so that meant we had two

2306
02:14:49,240 --> 02:14:52,120
Speaker 1: days off from shooting more deer. Well, we had hauled

2307
02:14:52,120 --> 02:14:54,360
Speaker 1: but up to Montana with our bird dogs and shotguns

2308
02:14:54,400 --> 02:14:56,360
Speaker 1: and go hunt hunt upland birds because it was in

2309
02:14:56,440 --> 02:14:58,880
Speaker 1: the right season. Let all of our ship up. Well, yeah,

2310
02:14:59,040 --> 02:15:03,400
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. It's from Arizona, man. Anyway, um, we'd go

2311
02:15:03,480 --> 02:15:05,600
Speaker 1: do that, and my wife said, I called her. I said, man,

2312
02:15:06,040 --> 02:15:08,200
Speaker 1: I got not only we're gonna have all the dear

2313
02:15:08,280 --> 02:15:11,360
Speaker 1: meat from the study, I mean five tags worth the dophons,

2314
02:15:11,480 --> 02:15:14,280
Speaker 1: and it's all be gonna be cutting packaged professionally, which okay,

2315
02:15:14,360 --> 02:15:18,240
Speaker 1: let's either get or bad. But I like doing my Yeah,

2316
02:15:18,280 --> 02:15:20,920
Speaker 1: it's easy. We're gonna come home and I've got sharp tail,

2317
02:15:21,040 --> 02:15:24,280
Speaker 1: I got pheasant, I got huns, and we're probably gonna

2318
02:15:24,360 --> 02:15:26,400
Speaker 1: kill a few ducks with with falcons too to to

2319
02:15:26,520 --> 02:15:28,560
Speaker 1: boot and she goes, what do you hunt the uplom

2320
02:15:28,600 --> 02:15:31,880
Speaker 1: birds with? I was like, what a shotgun? Well, what'd

2321
02:15:31,880 --> 02:15:33,520
Speaker 1: you use? I was like, well, you use the four

2322
02:15:33,600 --> 02:15:36,720
Speaker 1: tail on the huns and the twenty on the sharp tails.

2323
02:15:36,760 --> 02:15:38,720
Speaker 1: And and it was at the end of of of

2324
02:15:40,520 --> 02:15:42,960
Speaker 1: stage grouse seasons and I got a stage grouse in

2325
02:15:43,040 --> 02:15:48,040
Speaker 1: my twelve. She's like, no, dummy, would you use well ammunition?

2326
02:15:48,120 --> 02:15:50,280
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know. They were double as

2327
02:15:50,400 --> 02:15:53,560
Speaker 1: something good, you know. She goes lead and I was like, yeah,

2328
02:15:54,320 --> 02:15:59,160
Speaker 1: oh right, well, uh, I have an X ray let

2329
02:15:59,240 --> 02:16:02,200
Speaker 1: me extra car. Because she was put putting it in

2330
02:16:02,320 --> 02:16:04,600
Speaker 1: my face, that are are you thinking? I was like,

2331
02:16:04,720 --> 02:16:06,720
Speaker 1: you know, that's a damn good point. I wasn't thinking,

2332
02:16:06,880 --> 02:16:10,200
Speaker 1: so yeah, maybe I'll try steal. And I tried steal

2333
02:16:10,400 --> 02:16:21,320
Speaker 1: and I've been using it ever since. Like I said,

2334
02:16:21,320 --> 02:16:23,280
Speaker 1: I'm only saying as to tea something up because I'm

2335
02:16:23,320 --> 02:16:25,320
Speaker 1: kind of teeing like what, I can't wait till you

2336
02:16:25,400 --> 02:16:27,400
Speaker 1: get there. Well, it's not as it's not as explosive.

2337
02:16:27,640 --> 02:16:31,720
Speaker 1: I think. What I'm trying tea up is if what's

2338
02:16:31,720 --> 02:16:36,520
Speaker 1: your like, what is your ask of your peers, like

2339
02:16:36,959 --> 02:16:40,800
Speaker 1: your peers being hunters, what is your ask? But I

2340
02:16:40,840 --> 02:16:45,920
Speaker 1: want you to say that like considering that, um if

2341
02:16:46,200 --> 02:16:50,200
Speaker 1: if if you can't look him in this straight in

2342
02:16:50,240 --> 02:16:52,520
Speaker 1: the eye, Okay, you can't look at hunter straight in

2343
02:16:52,560 --> 02:16:55,680
Speaker 1: the eye and say you are imperiling your family's health,

2344
02:16:55,840 --> 02:16:58,480
Speaker 1: which it's not my business. Okay, I'd never do that.

2345
02:16:58,680 --> 02:17:01,000
Speaker 1: Well and and you'd have a hard time making the

2346
02:17:01,040 --> 02:17:04,480
Speaker 1: case you would. Yeah, So I'm not gonna tell you that.

2347
02:17:05,760 --> 02:17:08,200
Speaker 1: But and I'm not going to tell you that you're

2348
02:17:08,200 --> 02:17:10,119
Speaker 1: having population and I'm not gonna tell you that you're

2349
02:17:10,120 --> 02:17:12,400
Speaker 1: gonna put the ball ego back on the endangered species list.

2350
02:17:12,680 --> 02:17:18,160
Speaker 1: But we as hunters are killing some number of birds

2351
02:17:18,879 --> 02:17:20,960
Speaker 1: by putting let out on the on the landscape, in

2352
02:17:21,040 --> 02:17:24,760
Speaker 1: gut piles. It's just it's like, it's not a debatable point.

2353
02:17:25,280 --> 02:17:27,800
Speaker 1: What you want to do about that. It's your business, Okay,

2354
02:17:27,879 --> 02:17:29,880
Speaker 1: are you like, hey, tough shit? Are you like, well,

2355
02:17:29,920 --> 02:17:32,160
Speaker 1: if I can if it's six and one half, if

2356
02:17:32,200 --> 02:17:34,400
Speaker 1: it's six and one half dozen the other maybe I

2357
02:17:34,480 --> 02:17:37,080
Speaker 1: don't want to do that, right, Like, like, what is

2358
02:17:37,160 --> 02:17:40,320
Speaker 1: the ask? I think the ask is to to one

2359
02:17:41,160 --> 02:17:43,640
Speaker 1: educate yourself before you make a decision. You want to

2360
02:17:43,680 --> 02:17:46,320
Speaker 1: make an informed decision, and there's a lot of information

2361
02:17:46,360 --> 02:17:50,120
Speaker 1: out there to make a decision. I have confidence that

2362
02:17:50,280 --> 02:17:54,119
Speaker 1: when the information is shared with hunters, they make good

2363
02:17:54,200 --> 02:17:58,280
Speaker 1: decisions for wildlife. M hm so. And and I'll also

2364
02:17:58,360 --> 02:18:01,320
Speaker 1: add a little another little little salt and pepper here,

2365
02:18:01,320 --> 02:18:04,320
Speaker 1: a little extra spice that you know the rest of

2366
02:18:04,320 --> 02:18:07,200
Speaker 1: the world is watching. And if the hunter and you

2367
02:18:07,280 --> 02:18:11,080
Speaker 1: gave one of these options or these alternative responses like

2368
02:18:11,200 --> 02:18:15,080
Speaker 1: I don't give a shit. Okay, careful, don't say he

2369
02:18:15,120 --> 02:18:16,920
Speaker 1: don't give a ship, because if you happen to be

2370
02:18:17,520 --> 02:18:20,320
Speaker 1: the hunter who the rest of the world is watching,

2371
02:18:20,480 --> 02:18:22,240
Speaker 1: that is not a hunter where ship? If they're an

2372
02:18:22,240 --> 02:18:25,080
Speaker 1: anti hunter and they can say, well, look he said,

2373
02:18:25,120 --> 02:18:27,520
Speaker 1: they don't care because it's not population limiting. They don't

2374
02:18:27,560 --> 02:18:30,440
Speaker 1: care if they kill a few eagles. That's that's a

2375
02:18:30,680 --> 02:18:33,720
Speaker 1: tough way that that's a tough place to be. So

2376
02:18:34,200 --> 02:18:37,920
Speaker 1: I guard against that by telling people will, well, there's

2377
02:18:37,959 --> 02:18:41,200
Speaker 1: a great way to representing the conservation ethical hunters if

2378
02:18:41,240 --> 02:18:43,360
Speaker 1: you say, yeah, I educated myself and I do take

2379
02:18:43,440 --> 02:18:47,520
Speaker 1: some precautions because I don't want to harm wildlife while

2380
02:18:47,560 --> 02:18:51,840
Speaker 1: I'm deliberately taking other wildlife. You know that I'm targeting

2381
02:18:52,480 --> 02:18:55,560
Speaker 1: um that I think that's the norm. Like do you

2382
02:18:55,720 --> 02:19:02,840
Speaker 1: do you feel that hunters would be rewarded in a

2383
02:19:03,000 --> 02:19:07,000
Speaker 1: legal sense, like rewarded by the legislation if they were

2384
02:19:07,120 --> 02:19:13,560
Speaker 1: demonstrating a year over year reduction in certain activities, or

2385
02:19:13,640 --> 02:19:16,040
Speaker 1: do you feel that in the end they're going to

2386
02:19:16,120 --> 02:19:19,280
Speaker 1: get hit by In the end, they're gonna get hit

2387
02:19:19,360 --> 02:19:24,800
Speaker 1: by bands no matter what they do. I hope not.

2388
02:19:25,760 --> 02:19:30,200
Speaker 1: I fear that if we don't mobilize and educate ourselves

2389
02:19:30,600 --> 02:19:33,800
Speaker 1: and come to some consensus about what best practices are

2390
02:19:34,040 --> 02:19:37,240
Speaker 1: when it comes to the potential for lead exposure in wildlife,

2391
02:19:37,879 --> 02:19:41,640
Speaker 1: I think we're more vulnerable than ever to a band.

2392
02:19:44,240 --> 02:19:47,640
Speaker 1: I you know, our our statement is we don't support

2393
02:19:47,760 --> 02:19:51,560
Speaker 1: legislation or litigation to solve this problem. I've had some

2394
02:19:51,680 --> 02:19:54,119
Speaker 1: good buddies of mine who I would assume that would

2395
02:19:54,200 --> 02:19:57,000
Speaker 1: never support a band say well, it's just time. I

2396
02:19:57,120 --> 02:19:59,360
Speaker 1: was like, WHOA, Well, Um, I don't know that it

2397
02:19:59,480 --> 02:20:03,720
Speaker 1: is because I don't have the confidence that hunters understand

2398
02:20:03,800 --> 02:20:08,080
Speaker 1: the problem. If I thought hunters really understood the potential

2399
02:20:08,120 --> 02:20:10,880
Speaker 1: for lead exposure and we, as a populacet said we

2400
02:20:10,959 --> 02:20:13,320
Speaker 1: don't give a ship, we don't care, I wouldn't be

2401
02:20:13,360 --> 02:20:16,440
Speaker 1: working so hard in this effort. But I don't believe

2402
02:20:16,480 --> 02:20:19,640
Speaker 1: it's the case because everywhere we go, even wildlife professionals.

2403
02:20:20,160 --> 02:20:22,640
Speaker 1: I'm not picking on them either. You go and talk

2404
02:20:22,680 --> 02:20:26,000
Speaker 1: about it and they're like, oh, I didn't know that. Yeah,

2405
02:20:26,000 --> 02:20:27,840
Speaker 1: I think do you mind if I jumped in here

2406
02:20:27,879 --> 02:20:33,520
Speaker 1: real quick, Steve? Yeah, you gotta pick your moments. Uh.

2407
02:20:34,200 --> 02:20:35,920
Speaker 1: I think something that would help me, Chris, because I,

2408
02:20:36,240 --> 02:20:40,720
Speaker 1: first off of preface, I am a I use both

2409
02:20:40,800 --> 02:20:47,160
Speaker 1: copper and lead. Um. I think you know the waterfowl

2410
02:20:47,280 --> 02:20:51,760
Speaker 1: story going from lead to steel has like man, massive

2411
02:20:51,840 --> 02:20:54,240
Speaker 1: die offs. We need to stop this now we're going

2412
02:20:54,280 --> 02:20:56,440
Speaker 1: to steal I think we would help somebody like me

2413
02:20:56,760 --> 02:21:00,120
Speaker 1: with making these decisions because I have educated myself to

2414
02:21:00,200 --> 02:21:02,440
Speaker 1: a moderate level on this and I'm not he knows

2415
02:21:02,480 --> 02:21:06,760
Speaker 1: more about guns name than anybody I know, um uh

2416
02:21:07,520 --> 02:21:10,320
Speaker 1: and um. And I'm not a blatant asshole like I

2417
02:21:10,600 --> 02:21:13,600
Speaker 1: do care about the wildlife. Right. So when I hear like, well,

2418
02:21:13,640 --> 02:21:17,320
Speaker 1: if you just educate yourself, like, it's a very easy decision, um,

2419
02:21:18,440 --> 02:21:20,320
Speaker 1: for me, I have not come to the same conclusion

2420
02:21:21,080 --> 02:21:24,440
Speaker 1: because part of my decision making has to do with

2421
02:21:24,520 --> 02:21:28,600
Speaker 1: that bullets performance. Can you stop from it, Scarrett long speaking,

2422
02:21:28,680 --> 02:21:32,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he's just been hanging out. Yeah, I's been

2423
02:21:32,120 --> 02:21:34,560
Speaker 1: hanging out here. Um. Part of this has to do

2424
02:21:34,640 --> 02:21:38,199
Speaker 1: with that bullets performance downrange. So a lot of folks

2425
02:21:38,560 --> 02:21:41,200
Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to make parallels to steal and lead,

2426
02:21:41,280 --> 02:21:42,760
Speaker 1: right because I know it's like easy to jump there.

2427
02:21:42,760 --> 02:21:46,280
Speaker 1: But there's like a very very very obvious case with

2428
02:21:46,680 --> 02:21:50,280
Speaker 1: with the water fell side. Um, I know that at

2429
02:21:50,280 --> 02:21:53,720
Speaker 1: a certain speed my copper bullet isn't gonna do what

2430
02:21:53,879 --> 02:21:55,840
Speaker 1: it's designed to do. I think a lot of people

2431
02:21:55,879 --> 02:21:57,959
Speaker 1: don't understand that they get their six five creed more.

2432
02:21:58,240 --> 02:22:00,680
Speaker 1: A lot of people don't get that a opera bullet

2433
02:22:01,840 --> 02:22:04,120
Speaker 1: you get beyond depending on the length of barrel and

2434
02:22:04,160 --> 02:22:07,400
Speaker 1: everything like that. But you get beyond about three hundred

2435
02:22:07,520 --> 02:22:11,760
Speaker 1: ish yards, you're going to have performance. You can have

2436
02:22:12,280 --> 02:22:17,120
Speaker 1: performance related issues with that bullet, right with any bullet,

2437
02:22:17,200 --> 02:22:20,199
Speaker 1: but it's it's more likely because of how hard copper

2438
02:22:20,400 --> 02:22:22,440
Speaker 1: is it, there's a higher likelihood that it's not going

2439
02:22:22,480 --> 02:22:25,800
Speaker 1: to expand. So for me, when I'm making my kind

2440
02:22:25,840 --> 02:22:30,039
Speaker 1: of lead copper decision, part of that is mortality rate

2441
02:22:30,080 --> 02:22:33,840
Speaker 1: on the animal I'm hunting and likelihood of recovery, right,

2442
02:22:34,240 --> 02:22:36,760
Speaker 1: And so I think something that would help folks like

2443
02:22:36,840 --> 02:22:39,480
Speaker 1: me that are in this position, right that if if

2444
02:22:39,560 --> 02:22:41,440
Speaker 1: we just had copper and lead animal and it's like

2445
02:22:41,480 --> 02:22:43,360
Speaker 1: they're equally just as good, and it was like you

2446
02:22:43,440 --> 02:22:45,440
Speaker 1: choose one or the other. Well, I think you're right,

2447
02:22:45,520 --> 02:22:47,680
Speaker 1: the decision is a lot easier, but they're not just

2448
02:22:48,040 --> 02:22:53,160
Speaker 1: like one another. What would help me is what what

2449
02:22:53,520 --> 02:22:55,400
Speaker 1: is the level of risk? Right? When you say, like

2450
02:22:56,480 --> 02:22:58,840
Speaker 1: Steve brought it up earlier, like we know there's eagles

2451
02:22:58,920 --> 02:23:04,880
Speaker 1: dying from gut piles right somewhere at some point, Okay,

2452
02:23:04,959 --> 02:23:08,199
Speaker 1: but like, do we know that frequency in that level

2453
02:23:08,240 --> 02:23:10,440
Speaker 1: of risk? Because I know that I might hit a

2454
02:23:10,520 --> 02:23:13,400
Speaker 1: deer on the way home, right, and that's calculated in

2455
02:23:14,240 --> 02:23:18,280
Speaker 1: me driving, right, but it's it's probably not likely, and

2456
02:23:18,360 --> 02:23:20,320
Speaker 1: I think that would help me come to that decision

2457
02:23:20,360 --> 02:23:22,199
Speaker 1: a little easier, you know, you know, a good parallel

2458
02:23:22,240 --> 02:23:23,960
Speaker 1: what you're talking about with the switch, Remember, like b

2459
02:23:24,120 --> 02:23:27,320
Speaker 1: p A free water bottles, Like you can't even look

2460
02:23:27,320 --> 02:23:29,320
Speaker 1: and tell the difference between the water balls. They cost

2461
02:23:29,400 --> 02:23:32,320
Speaker 1: the same ones b p A Free. You made switch.

2462
02:23:32,400 --> 02:23:37,240
Speaker 1: They made switching so easy. Right, it's like it still

2463
02:23:37,320 --> 02:23:41,000
Speaker 1: holds water, right, costs the same amount of money. I

2464
02:23:41,040 --> 02:23:43,400
Speaker 1: can't tell if I'm looking at it, but right, it

2465
02:23:43,520 --> 02:23:48,440
Speaker 1: just becomes like people don't sit around arguing about it, right, right, Yeah,

2466
02:23:48,560 --> 02:23:52,760
Speaker 1: So so I guess I'm maybe I didn't. Um. What

2467
02:23:52,920 --> 02:23:54,840
Speaker 1: you point out is is very worthy of you know,

2468
02:23:54,920 --> 02:23:58,360
Speaker 1: and depending on the bullet and what its composition is

2469
02:23:58,440 --> 02:24:02,080
Speaker 1: copper and whatever, then um, some of them, you know,

2470
02:24:02,200 --> 02:24:05,000
Speaker 1: the monolithics, the solids that don't have all the pre

2471
02:24:05,120 --> 02:24:08,840
Speaker 1: scoring and all that stuff. Yeah, you need eight feet

2472
02:24:08,840 --> 02:24:10,800
Speaker 1: per second to get that boot bullet to open up

2473
02:24:10,920 --> 02:24:13,600
Speaker 1: like it's supposed to. Um. But now there are other

2474
02:24:13,680 --> 02:24:17,280
Speaker 1: companies making bullets that that will fully expand, if not

2475
02:24:17,440 --> 02:24:20,280
Speaker 1: fragment into you know, eight or ten pieces that I

2476
02:24:20,320 --> 02:24:23,160
Speaker 1: would never use on game meat that identity eat. I mean,

2477
02:24:23,200 --> 02:24:26,200
Speaker 1: those bullets will will do what they're supposed to at

2478
02:24:26,280 --> 02:24:28,920
Speaker 1: way lower. So you're absolutely right. You have to know

2479
02:24:29,040 --> 02:24:32,400
Speaker 1: your tools and you have to know the capabilities. The

2480
02:24:32,440 --> 02:24:36,160
Speaker 1: first time I shot all copper, the first time I

2481
02:24:36,200 --> 02:24:39,520
Speaker 1: shot an all copper bullet was look a decade ago.

2482
02:24:40,080 --> 02:24:42,160
Speaker 1: Remember I shot up Stagg with it, or Red Stag

2483
02:24:42,320 --> 02:24:44,760
Speaker 1: with it. He didn't know he'd been hit. He eventually

2484
02:24:44,760 --> 02:24:47,480
Speaker 1: fell over and it looked like someone like shoved U. Look,

2485
02:24:47,600 --> 02:24:49,480
Speaker 1: he took a field point arrow ran it through him

2486
02:24:49,800 --> 02:24:53,120
Speaker 1: and I was six yards away. But just come a

2487
02:24:53,200 --> 02:24:56,080
Speaker 1: long way since then, it has. And I think something

2488
02:24:56,160 --> 02:25:00,600
Speaker 1: that would be interesting too is because man, my bullets

2489
02:25:00,760 --> 02:25:02,720
Speaker 1: at a certain range, like when I'm out of range, like,

2490
02:25:02,840 --> 02:25:05,440
Speaker 1: I know what they're gonna do more than likely, right, like,

2491
02:25:05,560 --> 02:25:08,440
Speaker 1: and it's gonna be very catastrophic. And we're doing a

2492
02:25:08,520 --> 02:25:10,080
Speaker 1: test on this actually in a couple of weeks on

2493
02:25:10,160 --> 02:25:12,400
Speaker 1: different bullet types and how they react to bone and

2494
02:25:12,480 --> 02:25:15,560
Speaker 1: things like that speed. But like, I would love to

2495
02:25:15,640 --> 02:25:19,240
Speaker 1: also see the data on a bonded bullet. Right. We

2496
02:25:19,400 --> 02:25:22,200
Speaker 1: know it's lead, right, but we know it's retention is

2497
02:25:22,280 --> 02:25:25,920
Speaker 1: a lot higher, right than that of a normal lead

2498
02:25:25,959 --> 02:25:30,360
Speaker 1: softcore bullet. So just be interesting to intertwine that to see,

2499
02:25:30,440 --> 02:25:33,200
Speaker 1: like what's my level of risk and choosing this, and

2500
02:25:33,560 --> 02:25:39,400
Speaker 1: how does that compare to you my perceived um potential

2501
02:25:39,720 --> 02:25:42,480
Speaker 1: of losing an animal, because I, like, I don't have

2502
02:25:42,760 --> 02:25:46,439
Speaker 1: a massive like I don't have massive ballist sticks expertise

2503
02:25:46,560 --> 02:25:48,880
Speaker 1: just for that sake, but I have, like I do

2504
02:25:49,040 --> 02:25:53,680
Speaker 1: a lot of big game hunting and shooting like trophy Copper,

2505
02:25:54,520 --> 02:25:56,879
Speaker 1: Federal trophy copper. I've yet to have what I get

2506
02:25:56,959 --> 02:26:01,240
Speaker 1: like a handful of big and animals every year, and

2507
02:26:01,320 --> 02:26:03,680
Speaker 1: I've yet to be like that son of a bit

2508
02:26:03,760 --> 02:26:06,400
Speaker 1: and both like never in fact, it will usually bring

2509
02:26:06,480 --> 02:26:08,440
Speaker 1: the opposite where people like hunting Couzi ever, but it's like,

2510
02:26:08,440 --> 02:26:13,840
Speaker 1: can't believe you're shooting right. It makes mushrooms perfectly, makes

2511
02:26:13,840 --> 02:26:16,080
Speaker 1: a perfect hole through them, things fall over. There's not

2512
02:26:16,120 --> 02:26:20,280
Speaker 1: a bunch of superfluous damage and a giant wound channel,

2513
02:26:20,680 --> 02:26:25,840
Speaker 1: but it mushroomed. I just had like, I'm sure you

2514
02:26:25,840 --> 02:26:28,400
Speaker 1: can find extremes, but in terms of like the performance

2515
02:26:28,440 --> 02:26:31,560
Speaker 1: thing just me as a dude out hunting and pretty

2516
02:26:31,640 --> 02:26:35,520
Speaker 1: normal Western big game situations, I haven't encountered the issue.

2517
02:26:35,720 --> 02:26:38,760
Speaker 1: And I think for a guy like you that um

2518
02:26:39,160 --> 02:26:41,840
Speaker 1: shoots a big gun, a three wind mag that goes

2519
02:26:41,920 --> 02:26:45,520
Speaker 1: pretty damn fast, and you don't reach outside a certain

2520
02:26:45,879 --> 02:26:49,480
Speaker 1: yardage like you have a fairly close like like that

2521
02:26:49,600 --> 02:26:52,160
Speaker 1: makes total sense. That's when I use copper right. I

2522
02:26:52,520 --> 02:26:54,720
Speaker 1: love it. I think it's when you get beyond that

2523
02:26:54,840 --> 02:26:57,760
Speaker 1: into different caliber types that it matters out to the

2524
02:26:57,800 --> 02:27:02,400
Speaker 1: shots where I'm like, I hear you. I'm glad you

2525
02:27:02,480 --> 02:27:04,760
Speaker 1: brought that up, because I wouldn't have remembered to bring

2526
02:27:04,840 --> 02:27:07,440
Speaker 1: that up. And it's a valid point. And and again

2527
02:27:07,879 --> 02:27:10,400
Speaker 1: it is to me just as simple as know your tools,

2528
02:27:10,959 --> 02:27:14,080
Speaker 1: know the information, and make an informed decision. And I

2529
02:27:14,240 --> 02:27:16,600
Speaker 1: think the impact from us just doing that as a

2530
02:27:16,680 --> 02:27:19,959
Speaker 1: hunting populace um it will make an impact. It will

2531
02:27:20,000 --> 02:27:22,800
Speaker 1: make a difference, which may make it more defensible. Back

2532
02:27:22,840 --> 02:27:25,320
Speaker 1: to your comments, Steve, that we don't need to be

2533
02:27:25,400 --> 02:27:29,040
Speaker 1: told what to do. We can we can operate as hunters,

2534
02:27:29,200 --> 02:27:31,959
Speaker 1: as the conservationists that we claim to be. We can

2535
02:27:32,160 --> 02:27:35,080
Speaker 1: do that with all of these things. Tell people ro

2536
02:27:35,120 --> 02:27:38,400
Speaker 1: out of time, tell people I get that all the time.

2537
02:27:38,640 --> 02:27:41,400
Speaker 1: Where if they want to find out more about the

2538
02:27:41,560 --> 02:27:44,200
Speaker 1: organizations you're involved, and if they want to read more

2539
02:27:44,280 --> 02:27:48,640
Speaker 1: about um whatever, uh you think they should go read

2540
02:27:48,680 --> 02:27:51,680
Speaker 1: about you. I know you've done a bunch of work

2541
02:27:51,720 --> 02:27:54,440
Speaker 1: on comparative ballistics and stuff. So just tell people to

2542
02:27:54,480 --> 02:27:56,280
Speaker 1: find what you guys work on. Yeah, I'll give you

2543
02:27:56,360 --> 02:28:00,600
Speaker 1: to UM non Lead Partnership dot org. UM and the

2544
02:28:01,400 --> 02:28:04,080
Speaker 1: hunting with Non Lead dot org. Those are those are

2545
02:28:04,120 --> 02:28:06,840
Speaker 1: two of the co founders UM Oregon Zoo because they

2546
02:28:06,879 --> 02:28:09,280
Speaker 1: have a program there that are co founder Leland Brown

2547
02:28:09,360 --> 02:28:12,640
Speaker 1: runs UM. Those are three good resources. And you can

2548
02:28:12,680 --> 02:28:14,360
Speaker 1: get a hold of us and we'll come to a

2549
02:28:14,360 --> 02:28:17,240
Speaker 1: ballistics demo. We'll bring ballistics. Jael bring a bullet trap.

2550
02:28:17,520 --> 02:28:19,480
Speaker 1: We did one of those years ago. And and I'd

2551
02:28:19,520 --> 02:28:22,320
Speaker 1: love to talk more more with you offline about the

2552
02:28:22,360 --> 02:28:24,880
Speaker 1: bonded bullets because yes, they do retain their weight, but

2553
02:28:25,480 --> 02:28:29,600
Speaker 1: there's some interesting things about that. So Nonlair Partnership dot org,

2554
02:28:29,680 --> 02:28:32,440
Speaker 1: the Paragrine Fund, any of our other partners. Arizona Game

2555
02:28:32,440 --> 02:28:34,560
Speaker 1: and Fish is a great resource. They've been at this

2556
02:28:34,720 --> 02:28:38,680
Speaker 1: long time Utah Division of Wildlife and soft down in Arizona.

2557
02:28:39,040 --> 02:28:42,920
Speaker 1: Yea soft Well you're gonna pay for that one. Yeah yeah,

2558
02:28:43,200 --> 02:28:45,520
Speaker 1: but um, yeah, I'd say hunting with non Lead dot

2559
02:28:45,640 --> 02:28:47,280
Speaker 1: Org is probably one of the best resources. And I

2560
02:28:47,320 --> 02:28:50,640
Speaker 1: also want to plug another another closer to here, um

2561
02:28:50,800 --> 02:28:54,120
Speaker 1: outfit that started up with a colleague of ours, Brian Bedrosian,

2562
02:28:54,200 --> 02:28:57,000
Speaker 1: and and they started one up called Sporting Lead Free

2563
02:28:57,400 --> 02:29:00,840
Speaker 1: in Wyoming. And it's another one that now pushing for bands,

2564
02:29:01,280 --> 02:29:05,160
Speaker 1: pushing forward, sharing information and pushing forward movements that show

2565
02:29:05,680 --> 02:29:08,800
Speaker 1: we can take that information and make really good decisions

2566
02:29:08,840 --> 02:29:13,120
Speaker 1: for wildlife. Alright, buddy, Chris Parrish, President CEO of the

2567
02:29:13,200 --> 02:29:15,720
Speaker 1: Peregrine Fund, thank you very much. Man. You're sticking around

2568
02:29:15,720 --> 02:29:18,440
Speaker 1: for trivia. Yeah, sure, I think you do good, but

2569
02:29:18,480 --> 02:29:22,240
Speaker 1: I don't think you'll win. I probably I'm not good,

2570
02:29:23,200 --> 02:29:24,720
Speaker 1: But no, I'm saying that because I think you might win.

2571
02:29:25,320 --> 02:29:30,240
Speaker 1: Because Brodie's now here. Okay, stick around with here and

2572
02:29:30,280 --> 02:29:33,400
Speaker 1: don't forget to stay tuned to get an exclusive first

2573
02:29:33,480 --> 02:29:35,840
Speaker 1: listen to one of the stories on our new Campfire

2574
02:29:35,879 --> 02:29:47,960
Speaker 1: Stories audio book, Narrow Escapes and More Close Calls The

2575
02:29:48,080 --> 02:29:57,880
Speaker 1: Best Shot of My Life by Cameron kirk Connell. A

2576
02:29:57,959 --> 02:30:00,480
Speaker 1: lot of the stories we're dealing with in the collection

2577
02:30:00,640 --> 02:30:03,720
Speaker 1: originally came to us in just little snippets, like little

2578
02:30:03,879 --> 02:30:07,039
Speaker 1: details of stories in a couple of cases, we would

2579
02:30:07,080 --> 02:30:10,200
Speaker 1: later find out that the details originally provided to us

2580
02:30:10,760 --> 02:30:14,000
Speaker 1: weren't actually part of the story at all. In other cases,

2581
02:30:14,280 --> 02:30:16,000
Speaker 1: we might have just gotten a little snippet of a

2582
02:30:16,120 --> 02:30:20,160
Speaker 1: story that was in fact the most tantalizing bit this story.

2583
02:30:20,240 --> 02:30:24,600
Speaker 1: Here is an example of the latter. Our next storyteller,

2584
02:30:25,160 --> 02:30:29,199
Speaker 1: Cameron kirk Connell his friends with the spear fisher woman

2585
02:30:29,760 --> 02:30:33,880
Speaker 1: Kimmy Werner, who you heard from earlier. And earlier I

2586
02:30:34,000 --> 02:30:36,920
Speaker 1: mentioned how Kimmy keeps a lot of things to herself.

2587
02:30:37,120 --> 02:30:41,120
Speaker 1: She lets experiences in the ocean oftentimes just stay between

2588
02:30:41,160 --> 02:30:45,120
Speaker 1: her and the water. Cameron is guided by that same

2589
02:30:45,200 --> 02:30:50,400
Speaker 1: principle and was not particularly eager to talk about this.

2590
02:30:51,160 --> 02:30:53,560
Speaker 1: In the end, he decided to tell us his story

2591
02:30:53,680 --> 02:30:56,800
Speaker 1: because he feels as though it might be helpful to

2592
02:30:56,959 --> 02:31:00,360
Speaker 1: other people who could wind up in a simil really

2593
02:31:00,600 --> 02:31:05,520
Speaker 1: dangerous position. He is anything but a glory seeker. However,

2594
02:31:06,160 --> 02:31:09,160
Speaker 1: perhaps to his own embarrassment, I'll point out that his

2595
02:31:09,320 --> 02:31:13,520
Speaker 1: actions and bravery were recognized by the United States Coast Guard.

2596
02:31:14,360 --> 02:31:16,400
Speaker 1: I called a little bit of the story, and I

2597
02:31:16,520 --> 02:31:19,880
Speaker 1: knew that if the part I heard was right, this

2598
02:31:20,040 --> 02:31:23,560
Speaker 1: story just couldn't be ignored. We had to go track

2599
02:31:23,640 --> 02:31:26,959
Speaker 1: it down, and I'm glad we did, and I think

2600
02:31:27,000 --> 02:31:38,360
Speaker 1: you'll be glad as well. I'm camera er'connell. I'm a

2601
02:31:38,400 --> 02:31:42,640
Speaker 1: professional spear fishing guide, and my family is from the

2602
02:31:42,720 --> 02:31:45,680
Speaker 1: Cayman Islands, so we grew up spear fishing and around

2603
02:31:45,680 --> 02:31:50,280
Speaker 1: the water, and I grew up doing nothing but wanting

2604
02:31:50,360 --> 02:31:53,680
Speaker 1: to be on the water. At the time this story

2605
02:31:53,720 --> 02:31:56,480
Speaker 1: takes place, I was working down in book a Grand

2606
02:31:56,760 --> 02:32:00,440
Speaker 1: as a tarpan guide, you know, helping people catch tarpin.

2607
02:32:01,480 --> 02:32:04,600
Speaker 1: When whenever I had a chance when I was off

2608
02:32:04,720 --> 02:32:08,680
Speaker 1: of work, I would go and and spear. And I

2609
02:32:08,920 --> 02:32:11,120
Speaker 1: saw a really good day of weather coming in where

2610
02:32:11,120 --> 02:32:14,040
Speaker 1: it's gonna be like flat calm, and there were some

2611
02:32:14,120 --> 02:32:16,360
Speaker 1: other guys at the marina that had a good boat

2612
02:32:16,400 --> 02:32:17,959
Speaker 1: that we could run way off shot of these really

2613
02:32:18,000 --> 02:32:20,440
Speaker 1: good spots. So I called a buddy of mine, Steve,

2614
02:32:20,480 --> 02:32:22,920
Speaker 1: who was up at the University of Florida. I was like, dude,

2615
02:32:23,040 --> 02:32:26,400
Speaker 1: come down, like it's gonna be like banner conditions, I've

2616
02:32:26,440 --> 02:32:29,760
Speaker 1: got everything, just show up. He was a really good diver,

2617
02:32:29,959 --> 02:32:32,680
Speaker 1: and it's it's hard to find other guys that are

2618
02:32:32,800 --> 02:32:36,160
Speaker 1: good at diving, so he drove through the night after

2619
02:32:36,280 --> 02:32:38,760
Speaker 1: having a pretty big July four and came down and

2620
02:32:38,840 --> 02:32:41,280
Speaker 1: met me, and I think he probably had about two

2621
02:32:41,360 --> 02:32:44,240
Speaker 1: or three hours of sleep by the time he got there. Um,

2622
02:32:44,840 --> 02:32:49,600
Speaker 1: so he was pretty whipped. This day, we were diving

2623
02:32:49,640 --> 02:32:52,440
Speaker 1: about sixty miles off the west coast of Florida on

2624
02:32:52,600 --> 02:32:54,840
Speaker 1: a spot that was in about eighty feet of water,

2625
02:32:55,440 --> 02:32:58,400
Speaker 1: and during that time of year, the water is usually

2626
02:32:58,520 --> 02:33:01,200
Speaker 1: nice and blue. Even in a feet of water, you

2627
02:33:01,280 --> 02:33:04,000
Speaker 1: can usually see far enough down to see some good fish,

2628
02:33:04,240 --> 02:33:06,280
Speaker 1: and the fish will come up midwater, so you're not

2629
02:33:06,440 --> 02:33:08,720
Speaker 1: diving all the way to the bottom on a free dive,

2630
02:33:08,800 --> 02:33:11,959
Speaker 1: which is breath hold diving, but you're actually chumming them up.

2631
02:33:12,840 --> 02:33:17,360
Speaker 1: Chumming What we do is we will take another fish

2632
02:33:17,560 --> 02:33:19,760
Speaker 1: or a bait fish, cut it up into small pieces,

2633
02:33:20,280 --> 02:33:22,760
Speaker 1: and slowly toss a couple of pieces out so the

2634
02:33:22,800 --> 02:33:25,680
Speaker 1: boat was anchored, and we would throw like three pieces

2635
02:33:25,720 --> 02:33:29,000
Speaker 1: of chum, Wait thirty seconds, three more pieces of chum,

2636
02:33:29,240 --> 02:33:31,920
Speaker 1: wait thirty seconds. And what that does is it sinks

2637
02:33:31,959 --> 02:33:34,360
Speaker 1: down and eventually it's going to go all the way

2638
02:33:34,400 --> 02:33:36,840
Speaker 1: to the bottom. You figure if you're a fish and

2639
02:33:37,320 --> 02:33:40,120
Speaker 1: eighty feet of water and you smell this delicious, you know,

2640
02:33:40,320 --> 02:33:43,080
Speaker 1: chum coming down the chunks of fish. You're gonna eat

2641
02:33:43,120 --> 02:33:44,720
Speaker 1: those little pieces and then you're gonna look up and

2642
02:33:44,800 --> 02:33:47,320
Speaker 1: be like, oh ho, so it's coming from up there.

2643
02:33:47,920 --> 02:33:50,280
Speaker 1: And then you follow that trail all the way up,

2644
02:33:50,400 --> 02:33:53,000
Speaker 1: so you can be out in a hundred or two

2645
02:33:53,400 --> 02:33:56,920
Speaker 1: feet of water and bring fish that are usually bottom

2646
02:33:57,000 --> 02:34:00,600
Speaker 1: fish nearly to the surface, so all the way up

2647
02:34:00,640 --> 02:34:04,199
Speaker 1: into range of what we can do free diving by chumming.

2648
02:34:07,040 --> 02:34:10,600
Speaker 1: We had just an epic day, Like the water conditions

2649
02:34:10,680 --> 02:34:14,440
Speaker 1: were awesome. It was really clear, beautiful blue um Both

2650
02:34:14,520 --> 02:34:18,440
Speaker 1: of us shot our biggest amberjacks, and the one that

2651
02:34:18,560 --> 02:34:22,160
Speaker 1: I shot I remember distinctly. I dove down and shot

2652
02:34:22,200 --> 02:34:24,120
Speaker 1: at it about seventy ft and I was in a

2653
02:34:24,200 --> 02:34:27,000
Speaker 1: hundred fifty water and the fish ended up weighing I

2654
02:34:27,080 --> 02:34:29,880
Speaker 1: think a hunned five or hundred seven pounds, so I

2655
02:34:29,920 --> 02:34:33,160
Speaker 1: can remember, like you celebrate with Steve on the surface.

2656
02:34:33,240 --> 02:34:35,320
Speaker 1: And then he shot another one, his best one. So

2657
02:34:35,959 --> 02:34:37,360
Speaker 1: it was getting towards the end of the day and

2658
02:34:37,400 --> 02:34:40,360
Speaker 1: we anchored up on a new spot and we were

2659
02:34:40,440 --> 02:34:43,039
Speaker 1: chumming for a while and getting in in the water

2660
02:34:44,560 --> 02:34:48,119
Speaker 1: so uh, the current was going straight off the back

2661
02:34:48,160 --> 02:34:52,800
Speaker 1: of the boat. So for the first thirty ft of depth,

2662
02:34:53,400 --> 02:34:55,680
Speaker 1: the current was going straight back and there was only

2663
02:34:55,720 --> 02:34:59,240
Speaker 1: about thirty ft of visibility in there. Uh below that

2664
02:34:59,760 --> 02:35:02,800
Speaker 1: there was a current that was going exactly ninety degrees

2665
02:35:02,840 --> 02:35:07,080
Speaker 1: perpendicular to it, and it was crystal blue water, and

2666
02:35:07,959 --> 02:35:11,240
Speaker 1: there was a group of Couberra snappers, which are a big,

2667
02:35:11,560 --> 02:35:15,320
Speaker 1: powerful snapper that fight really hard and really difficult to

2668
02:35:15,400 --> 02:35:18,480
Speaker 1: get and they really wouldn't come up over about a

2669
02:35:18,600 --> 02:35:23,320
Speaker 1: hundred feet. So Steve and I talked about it, and

2670
02:35:23,720 --> 02:35:26,840
Speaker 1: we decided that, you know, because of the rigs that

2671
02:35:26,920 --> 02:35:29,640
Speaker 1: we were using, which was spear guns with a hundred

2672
02:35:29,640 --> 02:35:31,920
Speaker 1: foot float line and a buoy, we weren't going to

2673
02:35:32,000 --> 02:35:34,480
Speaker 1: be able to get him with that rig So a

2674
02:35:34,560 --> 02:35:37,720
Speaker 1: spear gun is basically a piece of wood with a

2675
02:35:37,800 --> 02:35:45,120
Speaker 1: trigger mechanism and rubber bands that propel a metal shaft

2676
02:35:45,360 --> 02:35:47,680
Speaker 1: with a barb on it, and when it's loaded, it's

2677
02:35:47,720 --> 02:35:49,600
Speaker 1: like a rubber band gun. You had a kid except

2678
02:35:49,720 --> 02:35:53,320
Speaker 1: slings out of a metal shaft. So that spear has

2679
02:35:53,360 --> 02:35:55,240
Speaker 1: a hole in it and you tie a line off

2680
02:35:55,320 --> 02:35:59,120
Speaker 1: to that and then you've got about fifteen to thirty

2681
02:35:59,200 --> 02:36:02,040
Speaker 1: feet of slack line. That's attached to the gun, and

2682
02:36:02,120 --> 02:36:06,000
Speaker 1: then that is clipped off to a float line, which

2683
02:36:06,560 --> 02:36:08,800
Speaker 1: is a line that goes from the gun all the

2684
02:36:08,840 --> 02:36:10,640
Speaker 1: way to the surface. And you can have all kinds

2685
02:36:10,680 --> 02:36:14,600
Speaker 1: of different lengths of float lines and materials, but for

2686
02:36:14,720 --> 02:36:17,080
Speaker 1: what we were doing this day, we had a hundred

2687
02:36:17,120 --> 02:36:20,120
Speaker 1: foot float line, and then on the surface we have

2688
02:36:20,240 --> 02:36:23,280
Speaker 1: a float which is a big inflatable buoy that looks

2689
02:36:23,320 --> 02:36:25,959
Speaker 1: like a lifeguard float, so that when you shoot a fish,

2690
02:36:26,680 --> 02:36:28,760
Speaker 1: you don't have to fight them while you're down there.

2691
02:36:29,080 --> 02:36:31,480
Speaker 1: You can shoot them, keep the gun in your hands,

2692
02:36:31,560 --> 02:36:34,080
Speaker 1: the line comes away from it, and the line is

2693
02:36:34,120 --> 02:36:37,600
Speaker 1: attached to the buoy, so you can relax get to

2694
02:36:37,680 --> 02:36:40,560
Speaker 1: the surface. But the problem we were having is because

2695
02:36:40,600 --> 02:36:42,280
Speaker 1: of the way the currents were in the depths that

2696
02:36:42,320 --> 02:36:45,520
Speaker 1: we were diving, that boo was coming tight each time,

2697
02:36:45,720 --> 02:36:48,720
Speaker 1: and I was like just out of range of shooting

2698
02:36:48,800 --> 02:36:51,680
Speaker 1: that really big snapper and the other fish that were

2699
02:36:51,720 --> 02:36:56,560
Speaker 1: down deep. So we theorized the only way to do

2700
02:36:56,720 --> 02:37:00,360
Speaker 1: this was to use the fishing reel that was in

2701
02:37:00,400 --> 02:37:03,240
Speaker 1: the boat clip that off to the gun into the line,

2702
02:37:03,840 --> 02:37:07,720
Speaker 1: so if that fish came up to a hut, I'd

2703
02:37:07,720 --> 02:37:09,840
Speaker 1: be able to get to it shoot it and then

2704
02:37:09,879 --> 02:37:12,280
Speaker 1: be able to let go and just free ascend to

2705
02:37:12,360 --> 02:37:15,000
Speaker 1: the surface without having to fight anything, and the guys

2706
02:37:15,040 --> 02:37:17,120
Speaker 1: in the boat would be attached to it and be

2707
02:37:17,200 --> 02:37:20,760
Speaker 1: able to crank it up. So in order to give

2708
02:37:20,840 --> 02:37:23,360
Speaker 1: me enough slack to go deep enough to shoot one

2709
02:37:23,360 --> 02:37:27,920
Speaker 1: of these fish, we rigged the line from the spear

2710
02:37:28,000 --> 02:37:31,440
Speaker 1: actually to the fishing reel. So we talked it over

2711
02:37:31,520 --> 02:37:33,760
Speaker 1: with the guys in the boat and said, look, I'm

2712
02:37:33,760 --> 02:37:36,280
Speaker 1: gonna go down. I'm gonna make this dive. Steve's gonna

2713
02:37:36,280 --> 02:37:38,480
Speaker 1: stay on the surface and watch me. I'm gonna shoot

2714
02:37:38,520 --> 02:37:40,960
Speaker 1: this fish, and when you feel a tug, you guys

2715
02:37:41,040 --> 02:37:44,040
Speaker 1: crank this thing up. And we all decided this was

2716
02:37:44,400 --> 02:37:47,400
Speaker 1: a pretty good plan. And up until that day and

2717
02:37:48,200 --> 02:37:52,360
Speaker 1: until now, I've never done that again. It's amazing that

2718
02:37:52,520 --> 02:37:55,040
Speaker 1: we actually did it on on that occasion. It could

2719
02:37:55,040 --> 02:37:58,760
Speaker 1: not have been timed better. At this point in the day,

2720
02:37:59,240 --> 02:38:01,160
Speaker 1: Steve was kind of getting a little bit tired, and

2721
02:38:01,680 --> 02:38:06,680
Speaker 1: I was the stronger deeper diver. I told Steve, I'm

2722
02:38:06,680 --> 02:38:10,400
Speaker 1: gonna rest up. You watch me, and I'm holding onto

2723
02:38:10,400 --> 02:38:13,240
Speaker 1: the back of the boat, currents flowing past and trying

2724
02:38:13,280 --> 02:38:17,000
Speaker 1: to relax every muscle in my body. Every muscle that

2725
02:38:17,120 --> 02:38:21,400
Speaker 1: you're tensing is burning oxygen. So I'm totally relaxed, chilling

2726
02:38:21,440 --> 02:38:25,720
Speaker 1: on the surface and just waiting, doing nice relaxed breast

2727
02:38:25,800 --> 02:38:28,440
Speaker 1: like you do in yoga um to auction date your body,

2728
02:38:28,760 --> 02:38:31,920
Speaker 1: lower your your heart rate, and then for the last

2729
02:38:32,000 --> 02:38:34,600
Speaker 1: thirty seconds, I'm doing a series of breasts before my

2730
02:38:34,760 --> 02:38:40,240
Speaker 1: last giant breath, which is belly, chest, shoulder, and then going.

2731
02:38:41,480 --> 02:38:44,720
Speaker 1: And during that time of waiting for me, I think

2732
02:38:45,120 --> 02:38:48,480
Speaker 1: Steve got bored and made a dive and I kind

2733
02:38:48,520 --> 02:38:50,000
Speaker 1: of noticed it out of the corner of my eye

2734
02:38:50,200 --> 02:38:52,600
Speaker 1: and didn't think much of it because there were pelagic

2735
02:38:52,680 --> 02:38:56,320
Speaker 1: fish wahoo's and mackerel and rainbow runners and stuff that

2736
02:38:56,360 --> 02:38:57,840
Speaker 1: would come by every once in a while. So I

2737
02:38:57,959 --> 02:39:00,640
Speaker 1: was like, he's just he's just gonna shoot something shallower.

2738
02:39:00,680 --> 02:39:02,400
Speaker 1: He's just going to look or whatever. Like I know,

2739
02:39:02,520 --> 02:39:05,400
Speaker 1: he's focused on watching me because my next dive is

2740
02:39:05,400 --> 02:39:08,520
Speaker 1: probably gonna be over a hundred foot. So I kicked

2741
02:39:08,560 --> 02:39:16,160
Speaker 1: down nice and slow. When you make a perfectly efficient

2742
02:39:16,360 --> 02:39:19,400
Speaker 1: relax dive, as soon as you hold your breath and

2743
02:39:19,520 --> 02:39:23,480
Speaker 1: invert and start kicking down, you can do three ft

2744
02:39:23,560 --> 02:39:26,480
Speaker 1: per second for your dive, So to get to ninety ft.

2745
02:39:26,760 --> 02:39:29,320
Speaker 1: It's gonna take you thirty seconds. Then you sit down

2746
02:39:29,360 --> 02:39:34,840
Speaker 1: there and relax. And my general routine is just about that.

2747
02:39:35,000 --> 02:39:38,760
Speaker 1: It's like thirty seconds down, spend thirty or forty five

2748
02:39:38,800 --> 02:39:41,680
Speaker 1: seconds down, and then thirty seconds back up. So my

2749
02:39:41,840 --> 02:39:44,080
Speaker 1: average dive is about a minute and a half minute

2750
02:39:44,120 --> 02:39:51,040
Speaker 1: forty five. After about seconds, I'm down at and sitting

2751
02:39:51,040 --> 02:39:54,720
Speaker 1: there waiting, and a nice school of snappers came up.

2752
02:39:54,760 --> 02:39:57,680
Speaker 1: There was four, like really good fish that at the

2753
02:39:57,760 --> 02:40:01,840
Speaker 1: time would have been one of my best Kubera snappers.

2754
02:40:02,600 --> 02:40:04,960
Speaker 1: I'm sitting there looking at these snappers, and my mind

2755
02:40:05,000 --> 02:40:08,800
Speaker 1: has always been so focused on records, and I always say, like,

2756
02:40:09,640 --> 02:40:12,560
Speaker 1: in order to get a hundred pound fish, you gotta

2757
02:40:12,640 --> 02:40:15,440
Speaker 1: let all the ninety pound fish swim past. And at

2758
02:40:15,480 --> 02:40:17,520
Speaker 1: the time I knew the record was a few pounds

2759
02:40:18,000 --> 02:40:20,560
Speaker 1: off of one that we had seen that had a

2760
02:40:20,680 --> 02:40:24,360
Speaker 1: huge white mark on its face. So down there, say

2761
02:40:24,720 --> 02:40:27,000
Speaker 1: thirty seconds or so, and I'm drifting, you know, from

2762
02:40:27,080 --> 02:40:30,920
Speaker 1: seventy down. So it's towards the end of my dive.

2763
02:40:31,400 --> 02:40:34,440
Speaker 1: I've got this school snapper here, but I still haven't

2764
02:40:34,520 --> 02:40:36,280
Speaker 1: seen the big one, the big one with the white

2765
02:40:36,320 --> 02:40:38,720
Speaker 1: spot on his face, and that's the one I really wanted,

2766
02:40:38,800 --> 02:40:41,400
Speaker 1: so um getting ready ahead the surfings, I was like,

2767
02:40:41,440 --> 02:40:44,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go ahead and shoot one of these other snapper.

2768
02:40:46,000 --> 02:40:48,600
Speaker 1: Just then, out of the corner of my eye, I

2769
02:40:48,760 --> 02:40:52,080
Speaker 1: catch a glimpse of white and I turned to look,

2770
02:40:52,920 --> 02:40:56,480
Speaker 1: and in the distance, six year seventy plus feet away

2771
02:40:57,360 --> 02:41:00,879
Speaker 1: is the white handle of Steve's gun, which still loaded,

2772
02:41:01,520 --> 02:41:04,120
Speaker 1: heading straight for the bottom like a rocket. And I

2773
02:41:04,240 --> 02:41:07,840
Speaker 1: was like, oh God, that's not good. And I look

2774
02:41:08,240 --> 02:41:11,360
Speaker 1: and above that, just on the edge of my visibility,

2775
02:41:11,560 --> 02:41:16,720
Speaker 1: is Steve in a seated position, floating down towards the bottom,

2776
02:41:17,440 --> 02:41:22,720
Speaker 1: and I immediately know that he has blacked out. When

2777
02:41:22,760 --> 02:41:24,480
Speaker 1: you hold your breath too long and you're on land,

2778
02:41:24,520 --> 02:41:28,560
Speaker 1: eventually you're gonna pass out. But on land, your body

2779
02:41:28,680 --> 02:41:31,160
Speaker 1: is going to know that you're outside. There's arroganst your face.

2780
02:41:31,160 --> 02:41:34,640
Speaker 1: You're gonna take another breath. In the water, your body

2781
02:41:34,720 --> 02:41:39,040
Speaker 1: also knows that, hey, I'm in the water. Your body

2782
02:41:39,160 --> 02:41:43,959
Speaker 1: has a kind of a self preservation system that protects

2783
02:41:44,040 --> 02:41:47,680
Speaker 1: you and your vocal cords closed so you're not taking

2784
02:41:47,720 --> 02:41:51,280
Speaker 1: in any water. And basically it's like closing your your laptop.

2785
02:41:51,480 --> 02:41:54,160
Speaker 1: It goes into a sleep mode, so you pass out.

2786
02:41:54,440 --> 02:41:57,200
Speaker 1: You're not conscious. Your heart is still beating, but you're

2787
02:41:57,200 --> 02:42:00,520
Speaker 1: not breathing. So this is the state that Steve is in.

2788
02:42:01,879 --> 02:42:06,119
Speaker 1: The water was eight feet deep, and he was sinking

2789
02:42:06,240 --> 02:42:09,040
Speaker 1: at such a rate that I could not go to

2790
02:42:09,120 --> 02:42:11,680
Speaker 1: the surface and take another breath and come down and

2791
02:42:11,760 --> 02:42:15,520
Speaker 1: get him, because he would be gone forever. I knew

2792
02:42:15,560 --> 02:42:19,160
Speaker 1: then that I had one chance, and that was right now,

2793
02:42:19,800 --> 02:42:22,600
Speaker 1: to try and save him, at the very least recover

2794
02:42:22,720 --> 02:42:26,039
Speaker 1: his body. We didn't have any scuba tanks on the boat.

2795
02:42:26,160 --> 02:42:27,560
Speaker 1: We had no way of getting him. I have no

2796
02:42:27,600 --> 02:42:29,480
Speaker 1: one else on the surface, no one else to help me.

2797
02:42:29,959 --> 02:42:33,360
Speaker 1: Him and I were the only divers. So I dropped

2798
02:42:33,400 --> 02:42:36,720
Speaker 1: my weight belt and I kicked steadily towards him. He

2799
02:42:37,000 --> 02:42:41,160
Speaker 1: is maybe sixty or seventy feet away, which is a

2800
02:42:41,320 --> 02:42:46,720
Speaker 1: huge distance to swim horizontally underwater, even if I had

2801
02:42:46,760 --> 02:42:49,160
Speaker 1: been planning to do that on a dive, and then

2802
02:42:49,200 --> 02:42:51,400
Speaker 1: I knew that I had thirty seconds of breath to

2803
02:42:51,400 --> 02:42:54,480
Speaker 1: get back to the surface. Having to tack on that

2804
02:42:54,640 --> 02:43:00,920
Speaker 1: additional twenty seconds working like having to kick horizontally is

2805
02:43:00,920 --> 02:43:07,480
Speaker 1: a big deal, and one second makes a difference. Normally,

2806
02:43:07,520 --> 02:43:10,040
Speaker 1: when you help somebody that is blacked out, you go

2807
02:43:10,240 --> 02:43:13,360
Speaker 1: and grab them and bring him to the surface. And

2808
02:43:13,520 --> 02:43:17,440
Speaker 1: you can imagine the exertion it would take to bring

2809
02:43:17,600 --> 02:43:22,160
Speaker 1: someone's body up from seventy or eighty feet, which is

2810
02:43:22,200 --> 02:43:24,280
Speaker 1: where he would have been. Like when I got to him,

2811
02:43:25,040 --> 02:43:27,920
Speaker 1: and I knew there was just no way, Like it

2812
02:43:28,040 --> 02:43:32,600
Speaker 1: was absolutely impossible for me to do that, Like I

2813
02:43:32,640 --> 02:43:35,000
Speaker 1: would have died too, and no one you know, would

2814
02:43:35,040 --> 02:43:43,039
Speaker 1: have ever found us. As I'm closing the distance towards him,

2815
02:43:43,280 --> 02:43:47,240
Speaker 1: in my mind, I'm like, the only option I have

2816
02:43:47,480 --> 02:43:52,400
Speaker 1: here is to shoot him. We had talked, you know,

2817
02:43:52,480 --> 02:43:54,840
Speaker 1: over the years with different you know, friends around the world,

2818
02:43:55,200 --> 02:43:58,920
Speaker 1: that in a situation like this, it was totally hopeless

2819
02:43:59,280 --> 02:44:01,560
Speaker 1: that we would just shot each other, and at least

2820
02:44:01,600 --> 02:44:05,199
Speaker 1: then you'd be rigidly connected to him. The guys probably

2821
02:44:05,240 --> 02:44:07,560
Speaker 1: be pretty mad at you for shooting him, but at

2822
02:44:07,640 --> 02:44:09,680
Speaker 1: least he saved his life and you were attached to him.

2823
02:44:10,520 --> 02:44:15,120
Speaker 1: So I started kicking towards Steve. So now this is

2824
02:44:15,160 --> 02:44:19,160
Speaker 1: going through my mind in milliseconds, I'm trying to calculate

2825
02:44:20,040 --> 02:44:23,520
Speaker 1: can I get to him who's pretty far away, and

2826
02:44:23,600 --> 02:44:28,760
Speaker 1: then from there go to the surface, and in retrospect,

2827
02:44:29,280 --> 02:44:34,119
Speaker 1: I knew that I probably couldn't do it, but knowing

2828
02:44:34,200 --> 02:44:37,440
Speaker 1: that this was the only chance that I was going

2829
02:44:37,480 --> 02:44:40,280
Speaker 1: to have to be able to get a hold of

2830
02:44:40,400 --> 02:44:45,360
Speaker 1: him and secure him kind of overshadowed that, and I

2831
02:44:45,480 --> 02:44:47,200
Speaker 1: knew that I had to do something. I had to

2832
02:44:47,280 --> 02:44:52,760
Speaker 1: try because I figured he's gonna die either way. As

2833
02:44:52,840 --> 02:44:54,840
Speaker 1: I got about halfway there, I was like, I'm gonna

2834
02:44:54,840 --> 02:44:57,240
Speaker 1: shoot him in the calf. I'm a pretty good shot.

2835
02:44:57,480 --> 02:44:59,320
Speaker 1: I'm gonna shoot him in the calf that way. There's

2836
02:44:59,360 --> 02:45:01,560
Speaker 1: no major art rereas or anything in there. I can

2837
02:45:01,640 --> 02:45:04,280
Speaker 1: punch through it and I'll have a good hold of him.

2838
02:45:05,040 --> 02:45:07,440
Speaker 1: So as I'm getting closer to him, I get about

2839
02:45:08,280 --> 02:45:15,640
Speaker 1: away and his whole body rotates towards me, and my

2840
02:45:15,840 --> 02:45:21,320
Speaker 1: heart just sank because there's no way I'm shooting him in,

2841
02:45:21,959 --> 02:45:24,040
Speaker 1: you know, in the chest or the abdomen or the thigh,

2842
02:45:24,920 --> 02:45:28,160
Speaker 1: and I was worried that the shin bones would be

2843
02:45:28,280 --> 02:45:31,560
Speaker 1: too hard to punch through at the distance, and I

2844
02:45:31,600 --> 02:45:33,680
Speaker 1: didn't have any more breath. I didn't have any more time,

2845
02:45:34,520 --> 02:45:38,600
Speaker 1: so I made a split second decision and aimed just

2846
02:45:38,760 --> 02:45:40,640
Speaker 1: in front of his toes and shot him through the

2847
02:45:40,680 --> 02:45:45,320
Speaker 1: fin As soon as I shot. I'm like, oh, my

2848
02:45:45,400 --> 02:45:48,640
Speaker 1: spear gun, and now the line is attached to the boat.

2849
02:45:49,080 --> 02:45:53,560
Speaker 1: And I looked to the surface and I'll never forget

2850
02:45:54,800 --> 02:45:58,400
Speaker 1: I'll never forget that feeling when I looked at the

2851
02:45:58,480 --> 02:46:03,600
Speaker 1: surface and new that I wasn't going to make it either.

2852
02:46:05,480 --> 02:46:10,080
Speaker 1: Just absolutely the most dreadful feeling I've ever felt my life,

2853
02:46:11,080 --> 02:46:14,760
Speaker 1: seeing the surface, knowing how much air I had, and

2854
02:46:14,959 --> 02:46:17,040
Speaker 1: knowing there was no way I was going to make it.

2855
02:46:18,520 --> 02:46:20,360
Speaker 1: I think it was probably eighty ft down at the time,

2856
02:46:21,320 --> 02:46:27,840
Speaker 1: and I kicked away immediately and thought back to my

2857
02:46:28,000 --> 02:46:32,680
Speaker 1: training and my free diving that I've done and went

2858
02:46:32,800 --> 02:46:39,280
Speaker 1: into the absolute most efficient, perfect technique I possibly could,

2859
02:46:39,959 --> 02:46:43,200
Speaker 1: and that is your hands. I love your head tied

2860
02:46:43,240 --> 02:46:47,560
Speaker 1: against your ears, hands overlapping and just basically making yourself

2861
02:46:47,760 --> 02:46:52,720
Speaker 1: a perfect arrow. And started kicking steadily up, trying to relax,

2862
02:46:53,400 --> 02:46:55,280
Speaker 1: sniffing the air out of my mask as I went up,

2863
02:46:55,320 --> 02:46:58,400
Speaker 1: trying to get every little bit of it. And I

2864
02:46:58,520 --> 02:47:02,000
Speaker 1: hit the surface and if my first breath screamed at

2865
02:47:02,040 --> 02:47:04,680
Speaker 1: the boat, which is the absolute worst thing to do.

2866
02:47:05,400 --> 02:47:07,280
Speaker 1: You need to take recovery breaths and get the CEO

2867
02:47:07,320 --> 02:47:09,200
Speaker 1: two out of your system and get air back in.

2868
02:47:10,160 --> 02:47:14,200
Speaker 1: So when I screamed like that, I started to pass

2869
02:47:14,280 --> 02:47:19,920
Speaker 1: out myself, and again I remembered the free diving training

2870
02:47:20,520 --> 02:47:25,279
Speaker 1: and when pilots pulled gs when they're flying their jets.

2871
02:47:25,800 --> 02:47:28,480
Speaker 1: To keep from passing out, they do something called a

2872
02:47:28,520 --> 02:47:34,520
Speaker 1: hook breath, which is and you do five of those

2873
02:47:34,840 --> 02:47:37,920
Speaker 1: and it pressurizes, brings out O two back in, gets

2874
02:47:37,920 --> 02:47:41,720
Speaker 1: the CEO two out. And those breaths saved my life

2875
02:47:42,120 --> 02:47:44,600
Speaker 1: because when I surfaced, I was more than a hundred

2876
02:47:44,600 --> 02:47:47,960
Speaker 1: foot behind the boat, down current and away from you know,

2877
02:47:48,040 --> 02:47:52,520
Speaker 1: the guys and anybody that could help me. So now

2878
02:47:52,640 --> 02:47:56,119
Speaker 1: I'm I'm conscious, and I'm hauling asked for the boat.

2879
02:47:56,160 --> 02:47:57,840
Speaker 1: I'm swimming as hard as I can for the boat,

2880
02:47:58,040 --> 02:48:00,600
Speaker 1: yelling at them the whole way. Cut the anchor line,

2881
02:48:01,040 --> 02:48:04,240
Speaker 1: pull it up, cut the anchor line. Steve's on it.

2882
02:48:05,560 --> 02:48:09,000
Speaker 1: Those guys are cranking like crazy, they're hooting, holler and

2883
02:48:09,040 --> 02:48:11,000
Speaker 1: thinking they've got, you know, the fish of a lifetime

2884
02:48:11,160 --> 02:48:14,600
Speaker 1: that I've just speared, this giant hundred plus colbera snapper.

2885
02:48:15,920 --> 02:48:18,920
Speaker 1: I climb on the back of the boat, immediately start

2886
02:48:19,000 --> 02:48:22,000
Speaker 1: throwing coolers and bean bags and crap off the back

2887
02:48:22,040 --> 02:48:24,880
Speaker 1: of the boat to make room and telling him cut

2888
02:48:24,920 --> 02:48:27,600
Speaker 1: the anchor line, get on the radio, called the coastguard,

2889
02:48:28,120 --> 02:48:30,720
Speaker 1: crank this up. It has Steve on it. He's blacked out.

2890
02:48:31,080 --> 02:48:33,560
Speaker 1: We're gonna have to revive him. I need you guys

2891
02:48:33,600 --> 02:48:36,640
Speaker 1: to help me. And they're looking at me like what

2892
02:48:37,000 --> 02:48:39,120
Speaker 1: they're they're just they can't even wrap their heads around it.

2893
02:48:40,440 --> 02:48:42,720
Speaker 1: So they're cranking. I mean, this rod is bent like

2894
02:48:42,840 --> 02:48:45,840
Speaker 1: we've got the fish of a lifetime coming up. And

2895
02:48:46,640 --> 02:48:50,760
Speaker 1: up comes Steve backwards then first, and we grab his ankle,

2896
02:48:50,879 --> 02:48:54,360
Speaker 1: grab his arms and pull him into the boat. His

2897
02:48:54,520 --> 02:49:01,960
Speaker 1: skin was the worst color blue gray of death I've

2898
02:49:02,000 --> 02:49:06,360
Speaker 1: ever seen. He was bleeding from his eyes, his ears,

2899
02:49:06,440 --> 02:49:10,520
Speaker 1: his nose, and out of his mouth was just orange, foamy,

2900
02:49:11,160 --> 02:49:15,440
Speaker 1: horrible blood just foaming out of his mouth. He had

2901
02:49:15,440 --> 02:49:17,360
Speaker 1: a white rash guard on at the time, and within

2902
02:49:17,440 --> 02:49:19,880
Speaker 1: a couple of seconds, like his whole rash guard was orange.

2903
02:49:21,200 --> 02:49:22,560
Speaker 1: So we pull him up on the back of the

2904
02:49:22,600 --> 02:49:24,959
Speaker 1: boat and I lay him on the back of the boat,

2905
02:49:25,440 --> 02:49:28,400
Speaker 1: and you can imagine, like my adrenaline was, you know,

2906
02:49:28,520 --> 02:49:31,920
Speaker 1: going pretty hard. So I checked to see if he

2907
02:49:31,959 --> 02:49:35,560
Speaker 1: has a pulse, and he had a very very faint pulse.

2908
02:49:35,920 --> 02:49:40,960
Speaker 1: He wasn't breathing. I took his mask off, and when

2909
02:49:41,120 --> 02:49:44,400
Speaker 1: someone does black out, the quickest, easiest way to bring

2910
02:49:44,480 --> 02:49:47,720
Speaker 1: them back is to blow across their cheeks, because you

2911
02:49:47,840 --> 02:49:50,880
Speaker 1: have sensors in your cheeks that tell you, hey, I'm

2912
02:49:51,120 --> 02:49:53,360
Speaker 1: I'm in the air. I can breathe. So I blew

2913
02:49:53,400 --> 02:49:56,960
Speaker 1: across his cheeks, you know, opened his airway, tapped on

2914
02:49:57,040 --> 02:50:00,600
Speaker 1: his cheek, and I was talking to him, say breathe, Steve, breathe,

2915
02:50:00,640 --> 02:50:05,600
Speaker 1: You're okay, breathe. So I did two or three cycles

2916
02:50:05,640 --> 02:50:12,200
Speaker 1: of that, and he was unresponsive. In spear fishing, I've

2917
02:50:13,080 --> 02:50:18,120
Speaker 1: saved nine or ten people. Now, every single other person

2918
02:50:18,280 --> 02:50:21,400
Speaker 1: that I have helped recover from a blackout within the

2919
02:50:21,520 --> 02:50:25,359
Speaker 1: first two breaths has come back. They would come back immediately.

2920
02:50:26,040 --> 02:50:29,160
Speaker 1: In my mind, I'm like, this is really really bad,

2921
02:50:29,360 --> 02:50:34,160
Speaker 1: Like I've never seen anything like this. So I opened

2922
02:50:34,200 --> 02:50:38,760
Speaker 1: his air way again, nothing's happening. So there's so much

2923
02:50:39,000 --> 02:50:43,280
Speaker 1: orange foam in his mouth, like this bloody foam. I

2924
02:50:43,400 --> 02:50:45,880
Speaker 1: was like, maybe I'll roll him on his side. So

2925
02:50:45,959 --> 02:50:50,400
Speaker 1: I rolled him on his side and just this horrible

2926
02:50:50,480 --> 02:50:53,720
Speaker 1: orange foam is just leaking out of his mouth. And

2927
02:50:55,080 --> 02:50:59,240
Speaker 1: just as I'm getting ready to do rescue, breaths, which is,

2928
02:50:59,520 --> 02:51:06,920
Speaker 1: you know, like a CPR breasts. He goes and I

2929
02:51:07,040 --> 02:51:10,720
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, that was that was like

2930
02:51:10,840 --> 02:51:13,800
Speaker 1: the death you know, the death breath that you hear

2931
02:51:13,840 --> 02:51:21,120
Speaker 1: about and you read about. And he did that the

2932
02:51:21,200 --> 02:51:27,720
Speaker 1: one time, and there was a pause and he took

2933
02:51:27,800 --> 02:51:31,320
Speaker 1: what I would say as a one percent breath. I

2934
02:51:31,440 --> 02:51:36,800
Speaker 1: blew on his face hard again, said breathe, Steve, breathe. Yeah,

2935
02:51:40,040 --> 02:51:42,600
Speaker 1: he took a little bit more of a breath, and

2936
02:51:42,720 --> 02:51:45,480
Speaker 1: that orange foam was just coming out, and you could

2937
02:51:45,520 --> 02:51:47,720
Speaker 1: hear it like just gurgling in his lungs, like there's

2938
02:51:48,120 --> 02:51:50,560
Speaker 1: no room in his lungs, you know, for for even

2939
02:51:50,600 --> 02:51:59,640
Speaker 1: any air. So he started breathing slowly like that too,

2940
02:51:59,720 --> 02:52:06,200
Speaker 1: and five percent breasts and he's still unconscious, and I

2941
02:52:06,320 --> 02:52:08,920
Speaker 1: got him down into the boat. We got the anchor

2942
02:52:09,000 --> 02:52:11,720
Speaker 1: line off, we got the coast Guard on on the radio,

2943
02:52:11,800 --> 02:52:14,320
Speaker 1: and I told the guys, just as fast as you

2944
02:52:14,400 --> 02:52:18,879
Speaker 1: can go, head towards Tampa, head towards land. Coast Guard

2945
02:52:18,959 --> 02:52:24,879
Speaker 1: helicopter was on its way. So he's unconscious for fifteen

2946
02:52:25,000 --> 02:52:29,280
Speaker 1: or twenty minutes, still that orange phones coming out, and

2947
02:52:29,440 --> 02:52:35,120
Speaker 1: finally he kind of comes to and the first thing

2948
02:52:35,240 --> 02:52:40,680
Speaker 1: he said, is thank you, And uh, that doesn't seem

2949
02:52:40,760 --> 02:52:45,600
Speaker 1: like a big deal. But when you black out and

2950
02:52:45,680 --> 02:52:50,960
Speaker 1: you're unconscious that you have amnesia. So people that have

2951
02:52:51,080 --> 02:52:54,720
Speaker 1: blacked out don't remember anything so lasting remembers. He was,

2952
02:52:55,080 --> 02:52:57,320
Speaker 1: you know, ten fift ft from the surface and then

2953
02:52:57,680 --> 02:53:00,080
Speaker 1: lights out and this is the next thing is me

2954
02:53:00,160 --> 02:53:04,000
Speaker 1: holding him in in my arms and I held him

2955
02:53:04,040 --> 02:53:08,440
Speaker 1: and uh, and we we zoomed in as fast as

2956
02:53:08,480 --> 02:53:12,120
Speaker 1: that boat could go, and the helicopter came when we

2957
02:53:12,200 --> 02:53:15,000
Speaker 1: were about, you know, forty miles offshore. Lower the basket

2958
02:53:15,560 --> 02:53:17,400
Speaker 1: put him in the basket, and I'd been on the

2959
02:53:17,520 --> 02:53:19,560
Speaker 1: radio with them, trying to explain to the coast guard

2960
02:53:19,640 --> 02:53:22,959
Speaker 1: the whole time he's blacked out, it's a three diving thing.

2961
02:53:23,240 --> 02:53:26,400
Speaker 1: He needs oxygen immediately, and he just got to get

2962
02:53:26,480 --> 02:53:29,440
Speaker 1: him to the hospital. So the lower the basket put

2963
02:53:29,520 --> 02:53:31,119
Speaker 1: him in the basket in the front of the boat,

2964
02:53:31,800 --> 02:53:34,680
Speaker 1: lift him off, put him in, and they just poof,

2965
02:53:34,800 --> 02:53:38,480
Speaker 1: they're out of sight. They're gone. And I just sat

2966
02:53:38,560 --> 02:53:42,280
Speaker 1: down in the boat and just totally broke down. And

2967
02:53:43,920 --> 02:53:47,480
Speaker 1: I couldn't really talk to anybody in the boat, and um,

2968
02:53:48,640 --> 02:53:59,039
Speaker 1: it was it was tough. So Steve got to got

2969
02:53:59,080 --> 02:54:02,160
Speaker 1: to the hospital. UM, he was in the ICU for

2970
02:54:02,560 --> 02:54:05,400
Speaker 1: three or four days. His lungs were almost completely full

2971
02:54:05,440 --> 02:54:09,640
Speaker 1: of fluids and there was a big risk of secondary drowning,

2972
02:54:10,680 --> 02:54:12,560
Speaker 1: so he was in there for a while. UM he

2973
02:54:12,680 --> 02:54:16,000
Speaker 1: made a full recovery, no brain damage or anything. He

2974
02:54:16,120 --> 02:54:19,200
Speaker 1: played football at University of Florida for another two years

2975
02:54:19,320 --> 02:54:22,000
Speaker 1: or so, and him and I are still friends. He's

2976
02:54:22,040 --> 02:54:25,800
Speaker 1: actually my insurance broker and a and a really good

2977
02:54:25,840 --> 02:54:29,560
Speaker 1: buddy of mine. We still dive together. The tough thing

2978
02:54:29,640 --> 02:54:36,640
Speaker 1: about blackouts and free diving is you're basically watching your

2979
02:54:36,840 --> 02:54:42,039
Speaker 1: your friend die and it's all on you. In that moment,

2980
02:54:42,840 --> 02:54:46,680
Speaker 1: two make the right decisions in a very short period

2981
02:54:46,720 --> 02:54:50,600
Speaker 1: of time to save their lives. I wish I never

2982
02:54:51,680 --> 02:54:55,240
Speaker 1: had had to to shoot him in the fin but

2983
02:54:56,560 --> 02:54:58,359
Speaker 1: I'm glad it turned out the way it did. Obviously,

2984
02:54:59,720 --> 02:55:02,160
Speaker 1: it's the best shot of my life.