WEBVTT - McNamee Says Tech Poses Existential Threat to Democracy 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.760 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Jason 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:14.640 Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. You Joe like our next guest 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:19.360 might appreciate him drummed in by Little Tom petty musician 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.599 after all. Absolutely so. That lovely voice that you just 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:26.800 heard is Roger MCNAMEI you know him well, investor, venture capitalist, 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:29.800 co founder of the private equity firm Silver Lake, also 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:32.600 partner of the VC firm Elevation Partners. I'm convinced he 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:36.840 never sleeps um His book now out in paperback. We're 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:41.400 talking about Zucked waking up to the Facebook catastrophe, and 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:43.800 he added a new chapter. So he's in our Blomberg 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.640 Interactor Broker studio. Welcome, Welcome, Jason. I've been so excited 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.239 about having you here, so congratulations paperback, thank you. And 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:52.519 you know, the fun thing about writing a book in 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:55.240 the first place is you have no idea. You know, 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.600 the goal is not to be wrong. And what happened 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:01.680 was in the year to the book came out, I've 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.560 discovered not only that I was basically right, but there 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:07.560 were a lot of things wrong that weren't obvious when 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:09.640 I wrote the book. So in fact, they're they're really 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.080 four new chapters in the paperbackwork, I too, well, No, 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.680 it's easy to understand because two of them I rewrote 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:19.240 because looking forward, our understanding what we ought to be 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:22.240 doing is really really different now, and I wanted to 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.039 give the readers an opportunity to be part of that. 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:29.360 And so what changed, like what occurred to you as 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.160 you sort of went back through it for the paperback, 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:34.640 what jumped out at you that you felt like, Okay, 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.240 I've got to get this different, or I've got to 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:39.600 get this better, or think of it as I added 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:43.279 one chapter that brought the narrative forward, then I added 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:47.080 a chapter that essentially said what does all this mean? 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:49.360 And those two are brand new, and then the two 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:52.440 chapters on what to do both changed because what we 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:56.360 understand now that we didn't before is what Shoshana Zubof 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:58.800 the Harvard Professor talked about in her book The Age 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:02.520 of Surveillance Capitalists, which is that there is an entire 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:06.800 economic constrict that essentially we've shifted the economy from being 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:10.720 balanced on natural resources to being balanced on data. And 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:15.600 in that context, every traditional industry is playing catch up 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:20.079 to internet platforms like Google, Facebook, Amazon, and Microsoft, and 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:25.720 that that's a really dangerous situation for investors because, let's 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.919 face it, most of our money is in traditional industries 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:33.040 and there's not one out there that isn't being shall 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:36.440 we say, at least displaced, if not disrupted, by this man. 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:38.480 It's like you were behind me while I was on 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:40.800 a phone call earlier today. Jason and I are getting 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.040 ready to go down to Miami to cover the Super Bowl, 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:45.320 but we're gonna do this power player somewhit with owners 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:47.160 of teams and so on and so forth, talking about sports, 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.680 and I'm like, okay, so what's the biggest change you know, 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:51.800 the next air and sports? And they go, it's data, 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.920 using that data to create individualized experiences and and so 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:58.200 on and so forth. But it's data, but it's not 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.480 just that. It's also that these forms are increasingly the 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:05.080 gatekeepers for every form of media, and even sports is 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.440 beginning to feel that effect. So when you put all 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.080 that data in there, there's some benefits from it, but 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:15.720 there's also some challenges because at the end of the day, Google, Facebook, 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:18.040 Amazon and Microsoft have a lot more data and a 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:21.400 lot more experience at using it, and they know more 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:25.480 about the audience than any content producer on Earth. So 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:29.359 the NFL, for example, probably knows one percent of as 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:33.680 much about its audience as Google does, and in that context, 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.920 Google has an ability to leverage whatever relationship it has 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:39.840 with the NFL to its benefit. But I do wonder, 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.720 and we talk about this too, that I think initially 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:44.040 I'm like, I'm never going to have one of those 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:45.960 home devices in my home. I know that they're gonna 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:47.880 be able to they're just collecting more data, and yet 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.360 we're all buying in increasingly into it. I think the 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:53.920 thing that really scares me, and this is the thing 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:57.840 that I talked about in the hardback but where in 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.800 getting to know Shoshanna zoopofy now. But my steeper understanding 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:05.720 of it is there this massive marketplace in our personal data. 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:08.760 In the United States, you don't have any rights with 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.080 respect to your own data. And what happens is that 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:14.400 every time you touch the digital world, whether it's a 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:18.360 banking transaction or credit card purchase, or an airline ticket 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.359 or using your cell phone with location and tweets and 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.320 all that kind of stuff. Anytime you're going around the Internet, 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:29.400 that data not only gets collected, it gets sold. And 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:32.719 if you're Google and Facebook, the data that you have 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.120 on your users. Maybe a one or two percent of 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:38.440 it comes from their interaction with you as a platform. 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:41.599 Most of it is coming from them tracking relentlessly and 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.080 then acquiring all this other data. And now there are 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:46.440 things we never thought about. You may remember last week 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:48.760 there was a story about a company, a startup called 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:54.680 clear View AI. They scraped six billion photographs. They took 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:58.760 them illegally, in violation of the terms of service of Google, Facebook, Twitter, 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:02.320 and others. And they created this application where you can 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:06.080 identify anyone based on a single photograph and it doesn't 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:09.159 even have to be a good one. And you look 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:12.400 at that and you go, wait a minute, they took 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:17.400 those photographs without authorization. Well who else did that? Mark Zuckerbert. 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:21.040 That's how Facebook got started. And there's something about the 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:25.320 culture of the tech industry today that what I I 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:28.640 try to explain to government people is just like the 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:33.280 chemicals industry in nineteen sixty, the medicine business in d 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:37.440 and the building trades after the Great Fires, tech is 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:40.760 so important to the economy that we can't allow the 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:44.200 people who are in charge today to be the only 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:46.880 ones who have a voice in policy. You know, the 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:50.919 chemical industry. We decided they can't pour waste products like 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:53.480 mercury into fresh water. That's that's just you can't do. 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:55.800 And I think you have to have the same kind 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:57.640 of approach to tech. We have to sit there and go, 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.479 I'm sorry, but if you and nabal interference in a 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:06.160 democratic election, that should be a crime, not a civil Roger, 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:07.680 we have a minute. Then we're gonna bring you back here. 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.760 So so if you could put one law down there 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:13.920 right now, do it on social media? What would it 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.719 be so to protect the only three I want to do, 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.400 But the one for immediately is I want to have 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:24.080 a moratorium on targeted advertising for some period prior to 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.120 any general election, at least seven days. But it's not 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.680 just political ads. It's all targeting of ads and on 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:35.160 all platforms, because voter suppression over Internet platforms is something 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:38.640 that happens relatively late in the campaign and you need 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.359 to clear some space. The French already have this, Others 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:43.640 are looking at it. That's a no brainer. When we 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:45.800 come back, i'll talk about the other two things I'd 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.600 like to do. Roger mcnunee is still with us. He's 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:50.360 going to spend a little more time with us, and 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:52.400 in these couple minutes we have sort of in this 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:55.520 into regnum Roger, I want to ask you, you're here 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.000 in New York City, what's the culture of sort of 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:00.800 New York tech versus Silicon Valley? Right? So, I think 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.280 New York tech is really cool. You know, there was 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.760 a long time when New York tech was you know, 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.559 people wearing a certain style of clothing and hanging out 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:13.960 in hotel lobbies. And a lot of really cool things 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.360 are going on in New York and I believe it's 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:20.680 past that point where you know it's real, and so 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.560 much what's going on is media related now in the 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:26.680 tech world, and New York is the home of media, 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.960 and so it is a natural place for that to happen. Plus, 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.160 I think New York has caught a lucky break and 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.119 that the culture of Silken Valley has gotten really weird. 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.600 When I came up, we all followed Steve Jobs. It 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.840 was this notion that technology was there to empower the 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.760 people who used it. And you know, I'm a huge 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.960 believer in capitalism, a huge believer in entrepreneurship and innovation. 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:53.760 But Silicon Valley today it's much more move fast, it's 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:58.160 break things. It's it's bro culture. It's very and it's 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:01.880 sad because the technology gene now is more predatory, you know, 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.320 it's this idea of I'm you know, like we were 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:06.520 talking about clear of View AI, I'm just gonna steal 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:10.320 these six billion photos because nobody's gonna stop me. And 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:13.640 I think we're better than that. And I'm hopeful that 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:18.120 in New York, you know, you'll have enough cross fertilization 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:22.280 with traditional media culture that the values that come across 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.960 may not be perfect, but at least they're better than 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.960 the predatory thing that is so dominant value. And I'm 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.760 really hopeful that the value when we wash this this 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.880 generation of startups out, which surely looks like it's happening now, 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:37.600 that maybe we'll get back to something that I can 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:40.320 be excited about again, because the problem is the tech. 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.920 You are listening to Bloomberg Business Week, Continuing our conversation 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:47.840 with Roger McNamee, his book Zucked Waking Up to the 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:54.440 Facebook Catastrophe out in paperback, refreshed, revised some new chapter 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:56.720 as he was telling us a little bit about that, 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:59.480 And Roger, great to have you still with us, so 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.480 up to us about what happens next. From a regulatory 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:05.959 perspective or what you would propose. You talked about this 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.760 sort of moratorium around elections, but what else would you do. 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.600 So the most important thing for people to understand is 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:17.280 there is no solution that comes just from us changing 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:21.240 our behavior. We need to have regulation, and the reason 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:22.959 we need to have it is that this industry is 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:27.000 too important. Tech really matters, and we need it to 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:30.040 not do harm, the same way we need the chemical 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:32.079 industry not to pollute the water and not to pollute 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:34.400 the ground, the way we needed drugs that didn't include 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:38.160 quack medicines that kill people. So that's my basic logic, 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:39.720 and I think there are three things to do. First, 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:43.640 I want to ban algorithmic amplification. If you think about it, 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:47.080 your news feed on Facebook, your search results are not 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:50.040 actually the result of things you're doing. They are the 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:52.439 stuff that those platforms are putting in front of you 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:57.200 to maximize their gains. And the problem is that they 0:09:57.240 --> 0:09:59.000 want to hold your tension all the time. The best 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:00.960 way to do that is to a appeal to flight 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:04.520 or fight. Think of that is hate speech, disinformation and 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:08.199 conspiracy theories. We cannot help, but look at it because 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:12.960 our native instincts of self preservation require us to pay attention, 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.920 and so they are pushing hate speech, disinformation and conspiracy 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.440 theories for profit, and I don't think that should be allowed. 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:22.760 I would ban that entirely. The third that I mentioned 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:26.080 the algorithm com comiplication. I mentioned the micro targeting, which 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:27.840 we want to ban in the weeks before an election. 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.520 The third thing is I want to shift the focus 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.760 of data from controlled by corporation to control by the individual. 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.520 And the term that you use there is I want 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.400 to have opt in to using my data rather than 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.520 opt out. Today, people can do whatever they want, and 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:45.840 maybe you can turn it off, maybe you can't. I 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.240 want the default that they have to ask permission every 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.480 time they do it. If I take a ride from Uber, 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.080 I do not want Uber sharing my data with Google 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:56.200 and other people. I do not want them keeping my 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:58.040 data and then using it for something else I don't 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:00.880 know about. And so at the end the day, those 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.760 changes really do matter, and they're all completely doable. They 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:07.640 are not if you will out aligned with the kinds 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:10.800 of things we've done in industries historically, and frankly, they 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:14.080 would enable a whole new wave of innovation to happen, 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.360 which I think is super important. That last point, I 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:20.000 mean that was underneath g d PR in the EU. Right, 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.120 with that not enough or with that the model GDPR 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.920 was a great idea as we understood the industry at 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.200 the time, and in the past year and a half 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.920 two years, we've come to understand that privacy is just 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.760 one of four harms happening here. We have the damage 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:38.000 to democracy, we have the damage to public health you know, 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.040 kids and adults, and we have the damaged competition in 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:44.240 addition to privacy. And they all come from this business 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:47.400 model of surveillance capitalism, which is why you need to 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:51.240 go at the root elements of it, algorithmic amplification, micro targeting, 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:54.600 and then the opt out model. And oh, I'm sorry, 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.040 please no, it's just the thing I would just say 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:01.160 to people is that I believe that technology is not 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:04.800 the problem here. It's business models. And I don't think 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:06.960 the people are bad people. They just have a different 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:12.720 value system. They value efficiency more than anything else, which 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.160 if you're an engineer makes sense, right, But when you 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.240 apply that to society, you run up against the basic 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:22.160 values of the Enlightenment, which is to say, democracy and 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:26.520 self determination. Those are inherently inefficient. If everyone of us 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:28.800 were forced to wear exactly the same clothes, that'd be 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.240 super efficient, but that's totally un american. And if if 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.679 everybody tells you how to vote, that would be very efficient, 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:39.480 but un american. And my point here is we shouldn't 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.199 have that. We can have tech coexist with society without 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.600 doing harm. So I'm curious because you were an early 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:48.240 mentor to Mark Zuckerberg, and now you're basically saying, here's 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.880 this thing you created that has created an awful lot 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:55.800 of problems. Do you guys have conversations? No? I wish seriously, 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.960 if you could sit down with him, what would you say? 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:00.760 I would say exactly what I just said. I would say, Mark, 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.120 you can be the hero in your own story, because 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.520 he can do more good by changing the business model 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:11.400 of Facebook then he can with a thousand chan Zuckerberg 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.640 Initiatives or any other foundation. The reality of this thing 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:19.120 is that, for whatever reason, there's no one in his 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:22.080 immediate orbit who has been able to give him perspective 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.040 to understand this problem. And the same as true at Google, 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:27.920 it's true at Amazon. It's true it to a lesser 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:30.959 degree at Microsoft, and those are the four big players 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:34.200 in surveillance capitalism. And again, I would love to talk 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.080 to Mark, but I last communicated with him on the 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.680 thirtieth of October when I warned him that I thought 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:44.520 there was something catastrophic going on related to democracy and 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:49.160 related to uh civil rights. And you know, he got 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.240 right back to me. But they were incredibly dismissive. And 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:56.920 I spent three months pleading with them privately that this 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:00.880 was like the tail and all poisoning at Anson and Johnson, 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.600 that there's one right answer, and that is to to 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.760 work with the the authorities to find out what the 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.080 problem was and do everything it can to protect the 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.280 people who use your product. And for whatever reason, Facebook 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:14.760 chose not to do that. Just got thirty seconds. How 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.800 quickly do we catch up on the regulatory side is 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.680 and and create those you know, like we wouldn't have 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:24.280 people taking bad drugs. These things are not going to 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:27.080 happen overnight, but they don't have to happen everywhere in 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:29.480 the world at once. We can do one piece in 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.560 many different jurisdictions and get the same effect. These guys 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:34.840 are so automated that if you make a change in 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:37.760 one jurisdiction, they will implement a global GDPR has had 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.920 a profound impact everywhere. It didn't solve the problem because 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.680 these guys were allowed to control the way people signed up, 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.760 so they trick them into not signing up. But we can, 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.040 we can solve this problem, but we gotta get on it. 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.040 We have to make it an election issue because you 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.440 can't solve climate change, you can't solve anti vacs, you 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:59.480 can't solve gun violence until you get these guys not 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.400 amp fly dangerous people the messages that get amplified. Right. 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.240 What a pleasure. Thank you so much. Roger mcnamick, the 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.360 founder of Elevation, part of his book Sucked Waking Up 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:14.040 to the Facebook Catastrophe new paperback out February three. Pick 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:17.320 it up, read it again. This is Bloomberg Business Week 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:21.640 with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. I've 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.840 been so psyched about this conversation. I have to say 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:27.320 I've been talking a bunch about it too everyone in 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.640 the news room, because it's rare that you get to 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.920 interact with the true sort of multi hyphen it in 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.680 a lot of ways. And our next guest surely is 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:39.600 that TV Jake's is the chairman of the TV Jake's Foundation. 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.000 We're going to talk a lot about that. But he 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:45.600 is by all accounts, sort of a mastermind, a pastor. 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:49.480 He's got his hands in so many different pies. Really 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:50.680 great to have you here with us in New York, 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:54.720 So thank you. All right, So tell us about the foundation, 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:57.760 because you are going after what I think is one 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:00.920 of the most pressing issues of our day, which is 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.640 sort of filling that gap between people who need to 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.280 hire folks and folks who want jobs. It's it doesn't 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:09.840 get much more complicated or simple than that. You know, 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:14.880 it's a very important issue, particularly with the disenfranchise. Whether 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:20.320 you're talking about black, brown, or female, they're underrepresented, particularly 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:24.680 in STEM programs, technological programs. The divide is so wide 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.440 and the technology is moving so rapidly that that though 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.120 we are at eight percent unemployment right now, we're scheduled 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:36.960 to be at if we don't close that divide. With technology, science, technology, UH, 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:40.400 engineering and math. We added another component to it from 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:44.320 STEM to STEAM because the stats say that when you 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:46.960 add the ARCH you are far more apt to get 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:50.240 more people involved and it's kind of a gateway UH 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.320 into studying technology. So that left right brain. You need 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:55.560 it all right, I think to be really successful. Why 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.160 are we still struggling with this, Bishop Jakes? Because I 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:01.560 feel like we know there's a problem them about access 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.479 uh and equality for everyone in terms of an education, 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.720 especially for the stam or steam field. Um, why is 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:09.639 it still a problem? Because the where's we get it? 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.200 We know there's a problem. Schools are working on scholarships, 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.600 but it's still is a problem. The arts have been 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:17.320 underfunded in school. That's one of the problems that we 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:21.280 have to face. The other problem is in no part 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:24.040 of our labs have we caught up with technology, which 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:26.919 is moving so rapidly. Our laws have not caught up 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.880 with technology. So that's a real problem. And then when 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:33.040 you start thinking about our laws not catching up, our 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.639 job searchers have not caught up with them, and into 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:39.200 the culture and the fabric of people outside of Silicone 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:43.879 Valley and pockets of technology, there's an indifference to the 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.240 subject as if we uh, it's an optional issue, when 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.040 in fact it is not optional at all, and people 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:51.960 who don't get in are going to be left behind 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:53.840 in a way that I think is going to be tragic, 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.639 and it's going to be detrimental to the country. And 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:01.080 so how do you make that case to business leaders, because, 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.119 as we've seen with something like climate change, business leaders 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:09.560 only really engage when they feel like there's an existential threat. 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:11.520 Are they sensing that at this point? How do you 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:13.360 make the case to those leaders? You know a lot 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:15.080 of them, Yes, I know a lot of them, And 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:19.600 a lot of companies today are focusing on diversity and inclusion, 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:22.440 and so it's not a hard case to make to 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:24.919 them that there is a need to do that. And 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:28.199 in many instances the criteria requires that in order to 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.040 do business, that your boards and that your company be 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:36.160 more diversified than ever before. However, there's still a great 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.439 divide when it comes to how do I get in 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:41.240 touch with the people. Great programs are out there, but 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:43.720 the people who need to know about the programs don't 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:47.359 hear the information. Interesting, so, just because you put something 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:49.440 in the Wall Street Journal doesn't mean that it reached 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:52.080 the underserved communities. And so we want to be a 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:57.000 liaison and a bridge to help facilitate accessing those talents 0:18:57.040 --> 0:19:00.280 that do exist in cultivating those that do not. And 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:02.280 so how do you how do you get that message out? 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:04.480 What's the mechanism that you have to get in there. 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:09.119 About thirty thousand members in my church and almost thirty 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.960 million people on my social media database creates, uh, my 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:16.720 own media hub within itself. I just want to say 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:18.800 stop right there, because Jason and I are just struggling 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:22.399 with a few thousand people. So we just later on 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:26.919 we're gonna talk and you're gonna but that's a great platform, 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:28.760 and can I just want to say something you talked 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.960 about diversity and inclusion. Someone said to me diversity is 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:34.639 getting an invitation to the party. Inclusion is being asked 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:37.920 to dance, and I thought that is such a telling thing. 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:41.120 It's not just about being brought in, but you've got 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.880 to be asked to do a significant role, right. It's 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:46.359 got to be deeper and and in this case, you 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.080 may be prepared to do mentoring programs to teach me 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.760 how to dance, because a lot of people are underqualified 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:56.200 for these positions, and we have to rethink how we educate, 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:59.080 how we implement, how we mentor how we develop if 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:01.960 inclusion is really the goal that we have, and I 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.080 hope that it is, because we have right now today 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.080 seven hundred thousand jobs that are available right now in 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.720 tech industry that we don't have anybody to feel. And 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:13.480 when you look at that and you understand that we 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.920 have twenty three percent of African Americans are living below 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:21.639 the poverty line, then that's an opportunity. It's either either 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.560 a disaster or an opportunity. So here we are in 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:28.720 a political year. Are politicians listening because are we are 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.040 is that they'll talk about jobs. Is that pool of 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:34.439 workers better off today than they were? You know, I 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:36.480 used to think like that. I used to think that 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.560 it was about the politicians, But I am totally convinced 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.879 that it is not about the politicians totally. I think 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.600 they need to have a seat at the table. Four 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:48.119 different entities need to have a seat at the table, 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:52.399 especially for the African American community. Faith leaders need to 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:54.720 be included at the table because we are the gateway 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:57.800 to the community. And most CEOs don't understand that they 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:00.960 are so afraid of faith because they're in the mainstream world. 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:04.639 They don't understand that the churches up to our community. 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:09.840 The politicians do because anytime they want, they're showing up 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:12.720 a lot on Sunday. Right up on Sunday just happened 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:15.199 to be in the neighborhood. But the CEOs are just 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:17.639 coming into an awareness that we can be an asset 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.879 and a facilitator, that we can market their jobs, that 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:22.720 we can do things and they work it. We just 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:24.720 got about thirty seconds. Are they reaching out to you 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:27.280 and say, let's fix this. I'm seeing some progress in 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:30.760