Speaker 1: Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on
Speaker 1: your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new
Speaker 1: season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In
Speaker 1: the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking
Speaker 1: stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely
Speaker 1: want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty
Speaker 1: Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's
Speaker 1: Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of,
Speaker 1: and a few you didn't like former A and TM
Speaker 1: judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly
Speaker 1: of the long running TV series through the untold stories
Speaker 1: of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden
Speaker 1: opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation,
Speaker 1: shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part
Speaker 1: docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E Network.
Speaker 1: Check your local TV provider schedule.
Speaker 2: This girl is absolutely amazing. She's got to come back
Speaker 2: for America's Next Top Model. I said this girl, and
Speaker 2: my staff said, Tira, there's something a little different about
Speaker 2: that girl? So what's different about that girl?
Speaker 1: In two thousand and eight, Isis King made America's next
Speaker 1: top model history.
Speaker 3: I was born physically male, but mentally everything else I
Speaker 3: was born female. Some people might say that I'm a transgender.
Speaker 3: Some people might say transsexual. Personally, I prefer born on
Speaker 3: the wrong body, meaning I was born physically male on
Speaker 3: the outside, but everything else about me was female.
Speaker 1: Isis was the first out trans contestant on A and TM.
Speaker 1: For a lot of viewers, this was their first time
Speaker 1: seeing a trans person on a reality show talking so
Speaker 1: openly about their identity.
Speaker 2: Tell me about when you knew that you were a
Speaker 2: girl as long as I can remember.
Speaker 3: It's not something I've chose.
Speaker 2: This is who always been.
Speaker 1: And of course Tyra got real personal, real quick.
Speaker 4: So let's talk about surgery. Are you stop transgender? Pre opt?
Speaker 2: And do you want to have the surgery one day?
Speaker 4: If I could have it.
Speaker 1: Right now, I would a hell of a story. On
Speaker 1: cycle ten, the models did a shoot where they were
Speaker 1: supposed to serve homeless shekh you know, living on the streets,
Speaker 1: but make it fashion. A and TM used actual people
Speaker 1: experiencing homelessness. It's extras. In the shoot, Isis was living
Speaker 1: at the shelter A and TM partnered with you were
Speaker 1: one of the girls from the shelter who.
Speaker 3: Participated in our shoot in the background as an extra.
Speaker 5: Let's face it, there's a reason you're here because you
Speaker 5: know how to give me katoul and yes, there we go.
Speaker 4: It blew me away.
Speaker 1: She's laid better than some of the actual A and
Speaker 1: TM models. So Tyra cast her on the next season,
Speaker 1: cycle eleven. You know she loves her at Cinderella Story
Speaker 1: and from the moment Isis walked on the set, she
Speaker 1: had to face some evil stepsisters. So Isis. I thought
Speaker 1: she looked little manly like I have small.
Speaker 2: Boobs too, but her boobs she has no boots.
Speaker 1: So I told her to come over here with like,
Speaker 1: come here, and you know you're part of.
Speaker 4: The Citty committee.
Speaker 3: Though y'all want to figure me out, right, y'all want
Speaker 3: to figure me out.
Speaker 1: During the audition, Isis was minding her business when a
Speaker 1: group of girls called her over to ask why her
Speaker 1: boobs were so small? Way to tap dance around the question.
Speaker 1: So it's true, is what truck are you?
Speaker 4: Physically?
Speaker 3: Without wanting on what.
Speaker 1: Started out is caddy. Curiosity quickly turned mean, spirited and bigoted.
Speaker 1: My mind was like, what girl, how'd you Ain't you
Speaker 1: supposed to be a girl competition?
Speaker 4: How did you get through the door in up?
Speaker 6: If I have to get along with Isis, I will,
Speaker 6: But then again, if it comes between me and my goal,
Speaker 6: I'll stop.
Speaker 1: Let man write out of the competition. And this was
Speaker 1: just during the auditions. Once Isis made it into the house,
Speaker 1: things got worse. I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 7: It makes me uncomfortable as hell. Olnam brings me out
Speaker 7: that when she got something else different down there than me.
Speaker 8: I could think the thing about Isis so is like
Speaker 8: I was like trying to convince myself I was comfortable
Speaker 8: like Henney comfort, Henry un comfortable, But really I'm not.
Speaker 8: Sometimes people have a more view of transition.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like I always felt I'm a.
Speaker 8: Like time of a small town.
Speaker 6: Hell yeah, we won't want yoh you Hell yeah, you
Speaker 6: were growing.
Speaker 4: That in a small town.
Speaker 1: You was shot, But not everyone was terrible. There were
Speaker 1: a few girls who were welcoming and supportive of Isis.
Speaker 5: Now that person this shot, I mean for this competition
Speaker 5: is going to be Pasha mad and it is your
Speaker 5: spirit and how much she wanted to be for Isis
Speaker 5: to be so brave and so secure with who she
Speaker 5: is and being able to not let anything bother her,
Speaker 5: It's very commendable.
Speaker 1: Isis made a few friends and she found girls she
Speaker 1: could trust with her most private moments. Isis had just
Speaker 1: started transitioning before cycle eleven. She was new to taking
Speaker 1: hormone injections. She didn't want to do it alone, so
Speaker 1: she asked another contestant, Annalie Tipton, to keep her.
Speaker 3: Company in not to keep up my transition, I have
Speaker 3: to hormonal injections. Are you heard of needles? Gnia tell
Speaker 3: Annalie she's somebody who's really cool. So I saw her
Speaker 3: and I asked her what. She kind of helped distract
Speaker 3: me while I'm giving myself the injection.
Speaker 6: They can make superfaces for you.
Speaker 9: I'm lucky.
Speaker 1: I knew I mean chicken impression.
Speaker 3: She's had me laughing and made it a lot easier
Speaker 3: for me. Now I'm starting to get like Nausea's Yeah.
Speaker 8: It's something that means so much to her, and to
Speaker 8: share that with there was quite a personal moment.
Speaker 10: I thought.
Speaker 8: I took it as a huge compliment that you asked
Speaker 8: me to be there, so thank you.
Speaker 1: It looked like a sweet moment. Years after A and T,
Speaker 1: m Annalie came out as non binary. Today they go
Speaker 1: by Leo, But in two thousand and eight, there was
Speaker 1: barely any public conversation about trans identity. When there was,
Speaker 1: trans people were the butt of the joke or met
Speaker 1: with fear and disdain. Seeing Ices take her hormone injection
Speaker 1: on camera was groundbreaking. Producers presented isis in a way
Speaker 1: that humanized her struggle. The audience saw the ridicule she
Speaker 1: faced from the other girls, and we saw her dedication
Speaker 1: to transitioning. It sent the message that trans people aren't
Speaker 1: confused about their gender. They're people who are willing to
Speaker 1: go to great lengths to affirm their gender. It was
Speaker 1: a big deal for this to happen on broadcast television,
Speaker 1: and it's a moment that seared into the memory of
Speaker 1: a lot of queer people. It might be hard to
Speaker 1: remember these days, but A and TM was actually a
Speaker 1: pioneer in queer representation. In two thousand and five, the
Speaker 1: queer feminist website After Ellen called A and TM the
Speaker 1: queerest place in prime time. But the problem was those
Speaker 1: groundbreaking moments often came at the expense of the queer
Speaker 1: contestants themselves, like that sweet moment where Isis took her
Speaker 1: hormone shot. She says she didn't want to do it.
Speaker 1: According to Isis, A and TM producers deceived her into
Speaker 1: doing it on camera. I want to be on some
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm
Speaker 1: Bridget Armstrong. America's Next Top Model stands out as a
Speaker 1: pioneer in LGBTQ representation. But like everything with this show,
Speaker 1: the way they treated those representatives was complicated, in part
Speaker 1: because A and TM was always thinking about the story,
Speaker 1: not necessarily the contestants. The impact of the decision to
Speaker 1: cast Isis King can't be measured. It was pivotal for
Speaker 1: so many trans viewers who'd never seen positive portrayals of
Speaker 1: people like them. Isis was a symbol of what's possible.
Speaker 1: But behind the scenes, Isis felt like A and TM
Speaker 1: was trying to make her a spectacle. When A and
Speaker 1: TM went co ed on cycle twenty, they cast a
Speaker 1: gender fluid gay man before those terms were even mainstream.
Speaker 1: He challenged the idea that male models must be overtly
Speaker 1: masculine and he had to because the judges constantly chastised
Speaker 1: him for being too feminine. But A and TM is
Speaker 1: also the show that gave us iconic queer judges Jay
Speaker 1: Manuel Nole, Marin j Alexander or Miss Jay and later
Speaker 1: Andre Leon Talley and law Roach. It's a show that
Speaker 1: featured an openly lesbian contestant on season one and highlighted
Speaker 1: her loving relationship. It's a show that featured queer and
Speaker 1: gender fluid contestants from the beginning until the end. So
Speaker 1: on this episode, we're going to take a look at
Speaker 1: everything A and TM got right and wrong when it
Speaker 1: comes to gender and sexual identity. We'll explore had they
Speaker 1: broke barriers and changed the world while harming the very
Speaker 1: contestants they were changing the world for.
Speaker 6: I guys might go to school at Wesleyan University, which
Speaker 6: is in Connecticut.
Speaker 1: We're at the Cycle five auditions and a contestant named
Speaker 1: Kim Stoles just entered the competition. She's rocking a v
Speaker 1: Nex sweater over a tie and button up shirt, collar popped.
Speaker 1: Very preppy, very two thousand and five. At this point,
Speaker 1: you've heard me say this a lot, because we're talking
Speaker 1: about a modeling show and everyone's pretty, but Kim was
Speaker 1: gorgeous when it came to her face card. She was
Speaker 1: a classic beauty, or at least that's what I think
Speaker 1: white people mean when they say that her mom was
Speaker 1: a high fashion model in the eighties. That's probably where
Speaker 1: she got her looks from. Kim had a short, dark
Speaker 1: brown pixie cut in doe green eyes. Her haircut combined
Speaker 1: with her cutesy face kind of made her look like
Speaker 1: a baby doll. But something about Kim made her stand
Speaker 1: out for the rest of the girls, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: just her beauty.
Speaker 6: To be honest with you, like, I think I can
Speaker 6: bring something different to modeling. Can I feel a little
Speaker 6: bit more of a I don't want to say masculine,
Speaker 6: but I'm as well not killing luck whatever who I
Speaker 6: want to be out like I'm gay and I am
Speaker 6: I'm really proud of it.
Speaker 2: I think this a certain thing of being proud, Like
Speaker 2: I'm black and proud, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: But I'm not like walking down the red carpet. I'm
Speaker 4: not I'm a crowd, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: One thing about Cyra Banks, She's gonna make a moment
Speaker 1: about herself.
Speaker 6: I'm certainly not gonna, like, you know, walk down the
Speaker 6: red car and like try to kiss girls on the way.
Speaker 4: You know, that's like not what I'm gonna do.
Speaker 1: Kim wasn't the first contestant who was openly queer on
Speaker 1: the show. We talked about Ebony Haight from cycle one,
Speaker 1: Michelle Dayton from cycle four was bisexual, and there are
Speaker 1: other models who came out after the show. I will
Speaker 1: say this about A and TM after cycle one, they
Speaker 1: rarely explored storylines about a contestant's discomfort with another contestant sexuality.
Speaker 1: Maybe it was a reflection of society's growing acceptance. So
Speaker 1: unlike Ebony on season one, Kim didn't seem to face
Speaker 1: any criticism from the other models simply because she was gay.
Speaker 1: In fact, several of them seemed quite curious. Kim even
Speaker 1: had a little fleeing in the house with another model,
Speaker 1: despite Kim having a girlfriend. Are you are you full
Speaker 1: on lesbian? Are I mean you're not by or I
Speaker 1: only did girls?
Speaker 6: Yeah, a lot of these girls I don't know anyone
Speaker 6: like who is gay, and like it's like kind of
Speaker 6: exciting for them, But I mean I miss my girlfriend
Speaker 6: from home, and like I'm in like an open relationship,
Speaker 6: but I don't plan on acting on that.
Speaker 1: She definitely acted on it.
Speaker 4: We're oven right now and she can make out on
Speaker 4: until she wants.
Speaker 6: I don't care as long as like chance PUSI get back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was probably ridiculous.
Speaker 6: Hopefull's ridiculous because'm hit on.
Speaker 4: That's crazy.
Speaker 1: I'll hang out with you, Kim.
Speaker 9: Whatever.
Speaker 1: Kim identified as a lesbian, but she was still figuring
Speaker 1: out her gender expression. This was two thousand and five,
Speaker 1: before terms like non binary or gender fluid were widely accepted.
Speaker 1: With the judges, it wasn't Kim's sexuality they focused on.
Speaker 1: It was what they saw as her lack of femininity.
Speaker 1: On the first run way of the season, the models
Speaker 1: had to do their own makeup. Kim had never worn makeup.
Speaker 1: The models wore cocktail dresses and heels and had to
Speaker 1: walk down this oddly shaped runway. It was meant to
Speaker 1: be confusing, and let's just say a lot of the
Speaker 1: walks were not good, including Kim's. Here's what the judges
Speaker 1: told her.
Speaker 2: Next, we have Kim, Oh no, oh, what was the neck?
Speaker 6: I don't know.
Speaker 2: You're trying to be something that you're not. You're trying
Speaker 2: to be so sexy and so girly and you look
Speaker 2: like a Manda dress girl. You just need to go
Speaker 2: with your strong masculinity.
Speaker 4: That's what brought you here.
Speaker 1: They put Kim in a cocktail dress, heels and makeup
Speaker 1: and then chastise her for trying to be girly. But fine.
Speaker 1: It was the first episode and at least Tyra encouraged
Speaker 1: him to embrace her androgyny to be herself, but that
Speaker 1: encouragement did not last long. Kim got a lot of
Speaker 1: mixed messages from the panel. When she tried to be herself,
Speaker 1: she was told she was too masculine. When she pushed
Speaker 1: herself to be more fit, the judges seemed surprised and delighted.
Speaker 2: Your film shocked the hell out of me. This is
Speaker 2: so like beyond feminine. It was amazing. If you just
Speaker 2: showed me that, I wouldn't have known that was Kim.
Speaker 4: She has a ketcher smith.
Speaker 2: Look at those palls.
Speaker 1: One time, Nigel Barker even made a joke out of
Speaker 1: calling her Tim instead of Kim.
Speaker 4: I would never believe it's the same person, and I.
Speaker 1: Think this is a turning point for Tim. Tim.
Speaker 7: You sure did I saw that.
Speaker 2: Tim by day, Tim by night, I actually think she's hot, hot, hot,
Speaker 2: hot hot, which means I'm getting in touch with my
Speaker 2: androgynous feminine side.
Speaker 4: Maybe I'm not really sure.
Speaker 1: Kim got a lot of contradicting messages from the judges
Speaker 1: when it came to her a gender expression.
Speaker 2: Kim, you learned how did do all that feminine stuff?
Speaker 2: But today I asked for a signature walk, Kim, I
Speaker 2: asked for you today.
Speaker 6: I'm constantly trying to figure out what my gender is.
Speaker 6: That's hard in life, in this competition, every day, all
Speaker 6: the time.
Speaker 2: I suggest that you get some male fashion magazines, because
Speaker 2: when men model, they're slightly feminine, right. You can learn
Speaker 2: from looking at that as well as female magazines.
Speaker 1: A PM did bring supermodel Jenny Smith to the house
Speaker 1: to talk to the girls. Jenny was queer and gender
Speaker 1: non conforming. She talked to the models about finding their
Speaker 1: own lane in fashion.
Speaker 11: My big story is that a minority. I am five
Speaker 11: foot seven, I have a lot of tattoos and a
Speaker 11: game model.
Speaker 1: Kim theemed especially inspired.
Speaker 6: It's really an important thing for me to see not
Speaker 6: conforming too, just a generalized kind of woman.
Speaker 11: I've always been a tomboy, and I wanted to tell
Speaker 11: you guys, like the differences in modeling are actually beautiful things?
Speaker 6: Are you saying a tomboy? And so I was wondering,
Speaker 6: like in terms of wearing like really feminine clothing like
Speaker 6: on the runway, but I'm wondering how you reconcile or
Speaker 6: make like, you know, a dress look beautiful.
Speaker 11: I take it as that's a piece of art that
Speaker 11: I'm going to wear. There's always room for someone who's
Speaker 11: going to add flair to fashion.
Speaker 6: Jenny's former struggle is a lot like what I'm going
Speaker 6: through now. This gives me hope that I can get far.
Speaker 1: But even after that visit from Jenny Smezoo and that
Speaker 1: pep talk about being yourself, the judges were hard on Kim,
Speaker 1: which might seem odd for a show like A and TM.
Speaker 1: When it premiered, it featured two queer men as central
Speaker 1: members of the cast, Mister and Miss J. They later
Speaker 1: added Nole Marin as a judge who was also queer.
Speaker 1: They had several queer guest judges, and Miss J was
Speaker 1: gender fluid before anybody was calling it that. He was
Speaker 1: a runway coach for years and he'd been wearing fabulous
Speaker 1: dresses and heels on the set of ANTM since Cycle Ie.
Speaker 1: One time, Kim actually called out the contradiction of Miss
Speaker 1: J being the one to criticize her gender expression. The
Speaker 1: girls were asked to do their best signature runway walk
Speaker 1: for Miss Jay. They were at a pool and for
Speaker 1: some reason, Miss J brought all these church lady hats
Speaker 1: and told them to make the hats a part of
Speaker 1: their walk. When it was Kim's turn, Miss Jay was
Speaker 1: already prepared for the worst.
Speaker 6: This to be real special because you I want to
Speaker 6: try to put my own personality into it, but also
Speaker 6: having a feminine flair, and it's just difficult for me.
Speaker 4: It's it's a bit Marrionette for doctor strings.
Speaker 1: Kim's walk was awkward. She had on this afternoon tea outfit,
Speaker 1: but she was also trying to strut like a male model.
Speaker 1: The church hat wasn't helping.
Speaker 4: Kim has an incredible face.
Speaker 2: She should be able to do any really well, but
Speaker 2: unfortunately don't have five years.
Speaker 6: I need to somehow bring my masculinity and femininity into
Speaker 6: the walk.
Speaker 9: I've lost words.
Speaker 3: You usually have something to say.
Speaker 4: I am really lost for words.
Speaker 6: If anyone should understand a difference of gender expression, she
Speaker 6: should be the one. I mean, are you kidding.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of queer representation in the fashion industry.
Speaker 1: People aren't surprised to see a gay male designer, stylist,
Speaker 1: makeup artists, or runway coach, but for models sometimes it's different.
Speaker 1: These days, the industry has become more inclusive of different
Speaker 1: gender expression, But in two thousand and five, there was
Speaker 1: an idea that female models needed to embody femininity, and
Speaker 1: while A ANDTM embraced queer contestants and judges on the show,
Speaker 1: they also upheld the notion that contestants need to conform
Speaker 1: to certain gender norms. It's a dynamic room, Longoria saw
Speaker 1: when they competed on cycle sixteen. When they were on
Speaker 1: A ANDTM, the show identified them as being polyhamorous, although
Speaker 1: at the time they identified as being bisexual. After the show,
Speaker 1: Room came out as non binary. Here they are talking
Speaker 1: with Oliver Twigs on his YouTube channel.
Speaker 7: Quite a few have said that they were openly queer
Speaker 7: during filming.
Speaker 4: Whether I have never made it on the show, it
Speaker 4: was brushed aside. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 7: I mean, especially like in that era of television, like
Speaker 7: you were allowed to be queerer gay in a way
Speaker 7: that made sense to the people that were going to
Speaker 7: be watching it, Like, I'm pretty sure I talked about
Speaker 7: the gender spectrum and feeling like I swung around on
Speaker 7: it and stuff. But yes, I agree that they do
Speaker 7: tend to hide things that are difficult to understand and
Speaker 7: show support for.
Speaker 1: A and TM included queer contestants, but they only showed
Speaker 1: the parts that would fit into a storyline, and it
Speaker 1: needed to be a storyline the show thought their audience
Speaker 1: would understand. Some queer contestants say their gender and sexuality
Speaker 1: wasn't mentioned at all, while others had their whole storyline
Speaker 1: built around it, like Kim on cycle five. Her entire
Speaker 1: character arc was about how she was a masculine lesbian
Speaker 1: struggling to become feminine enough to model. I don't want
Speaker 1: to downplay the decision to cast Kim Stoles on season five.
Speaker 1: For A and TM's young, mostly female audience, it was
Speaker 1: pretty cool to see an openly lesbian woman who described
Speaker 1: herself as masculine on a modeling competition. For young women
Speaker 1: who may have been questioning their own sexuality, Kim was
Speaker 1: an example of how to be out and proud. Also,
Speaker 1: Kim was beautiful, so beautiful she was chosen to be
Speaker 1: on a modeling competition, which contradicted the idea that so
Speaker 1: called masculine lesbians are unattractive. Kim talked about her struggle
Speaker 1: with gender norms and figuring where she fit in. Seeing
Speaker 1: that struggle on A ANDTM was huge for a lot
Speaker 1: of queer young people watching at home who may have
Speaker 1: been going through the same thing, but they saw that
Speaker 1: struggle play out because she was on a reality show
Speaker 1: that was pressuring her to be more feminine. Fifteen seasons later,
Speaker 1: A ANDTM cast its first openly gay male contestant when
Speaker 1: the show went co ed, but according to him, at
Speaker 1: least when it came to gender expression, the show hadn't
Speaker 1: learned much.
Speaker 4: It's too feminine. If we can tell them the same
Speaker 4: thing week off the week.
Speaker 1: We'll get into that after the break.
Speaker 9: The second that I understood that they were really trying
Speaker 9: to centralize my queer identity and really just like diminish
Speaker 9: my whole persda and my whole identity to just one
Speaker 9: character trait, and that is my gainness, I definitely took
Speaker 9: those cues and I ran with it.
Speaker 1: Corey Wade was a contestant on A and TM cycle
Speaker 1: twenty or two point zero as they were calling it.
Speaker 1: It was the first guy girl season. A and TM
Speaker 1: did three co ed cycles. Corey was the first openly
Speaker 1: gay man on A and TM. His presence on the
Speaker 1: show was an opportunity to explore a new trope. Corey
Speaker 1: was there token gay guy. He figured out what the
Speaker 1: show wanted from him during the auditions, and he decided
Speaker 1: to go along with it.
Speaker 9: These men are nothing but eye candy to me. It's
Speaker 9: psychological warfare. Honey, comin in this key, Honey, anything you'll
Speaker 9: do boob, do it with confidence. I definitely took it,
Speaker 9: and I ran with it.
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna say it didn't hurt.
Speaker 1: Corey is probably the most clear eyed contestant I spoke with,
Speaker 1: maybe because he was on a later season. It was
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen and A ANDTM had been running for ten
Speaker 1: years at this point. He told me he had no
Speaker 1: illusions about how reality TV works. He didn't think ANTM
Speaker 1: was going to make him a top model. He auditioned
Speaker 1: for the show because he wanted exposure. Corey wanted to
Speaker 1: be a star.
Speaker 9: If I look back to twenty two year old Corey
Speaker 9: auditioning for America's sextup Model. My mission at that point
Speaker 9: in time, it was very like vapid and hollow. I
Speaker 9: just wanted to be famous, Like I didn't care how.
Speaker 9: I just wanted to do it. Did I think that
Speaker 9: this was going to like make me into a supermodel
Speaker 9: like Bella and Gigi Hedeed's status.
Speaker 4: No, I don't think I was ever.
Speaker 9: Delusional about that, to be honest with you. But I
Speaker 9: did know that it was going to get my name
Speaker 9: out there. I did know that I was in pursuit
Speaker 9: of a career in entertainment.
Speaker 1: At the time, Corey was a musical theater actor performing
Speaker 1: in regional plays. He thought getting on A and TM
Speaker 1: would help his entertainment career. Plus, he'd been a huge
Speaker 1: Top Model fan growing.
Speaker 9: Up when I was in middle school. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 9: that was like my world. I loved America's Next Hout Model.
Speaker 9: I was obsessed like doing like after school hangouts with
Speaker 9: girlfriends and like perching around the TV and getting ready
Speaker 9: for the next episode.
Speaker 4: That was my life.
Speaker 1: He idolized Tyra. In fact, when Corey was bullied in
Speaker 1: high school, the other kids called him Tyra is in
Speaker 1: Tyra Banks, and it wasn't a compliment, but he took
Speaker 1: it as one.
Speaker 4: Tira.
Speaker 9: You know, growing up, I was kind of like obsessed
Speaker 9: with her and her talk show and just enamored by
Speaker 9: her career trajectory and just everything that she stood for
Speaker 9: promoting body positivity, having opened the LGBTQI plus people on
Speaker 9: her talk show and not in a way that was
Speaker 9: kind of like demeaning.
Speaker 1: I know I've taken some shots at Tyra's talk show
Speaker 1: on this podcast, but Corey's right us was the time
Speaker 1: when talk shows were still doing surprise I'm really a
Speaker 1: man dating reveal segments. So in comparison, both Tyro's talk
Speaker 1: show and A and TM were progressive.
Speaker 9: She would uplift them and hear their stories and advocate
Speaker 9: for them at a time where that wasn't really popular.
Speaker 1: Corey also admired the queer representation he saw on A
Speaker 1: and TM. It had been pivotal for him as a
Speaker 1: queer teenager.
Speaker 9: I look back at Isis specifically, and I see this
Speaker 9: like warrior of Truth. And she went back and did
Speaker 9: the All Star cycle and slayd that as well. And
Speaker 9: then you look at representatives like on the judges panel,
Speaker 9: like Miss Jay Alexander, who is just this like godess
Speaker 9: and just like who like free expression, but you can't
Speaker 9: tell me nothing queer off the beaten path, visibly queer,
Speaker 9: but you can't tell me not.
Speaker 1: Then by the time Corey auditioned for A and TM
Speaker 1: Jay Manuel and Miss j Alexander have been replaced. There
Speaker 1: was an entirely new panel of judges. Corey was disappointed.
Speaker 1: He was looking forward to meeting the queer icon Miss Jay.
Speaker 1: He felt Miss Jay would get him.
Speaker 4: I wanted mister Alexander to be on my judges panel.
Speaker 4: I was missing that slambuoyant just like ooh real, raw,
Speaker 4: unapologetic gay personality just there. I missed it and I
Speaker 4: didn't get it. And they tried to like.
Speaker 9: Half ass a version of that by having Brian Boy
Speaker 9: on our show.
Speaker 1: But he tried not to let that get him down.
Speaker 1: He was going to be on a show that he
Speaker 1: loved as a kid, a show that cast isis King
Speaker 1: and Miss j. Corey went in expecting his queerness to
Speaker 1: be celebrated or the very least accepted, so he was
Speaker 1: caught off guard at the first judging panel of the season.
Speaker 9: They were like, oh my gosh, you look very very
Speaker 9: feminine in this photo. Come to think that you present
Speaker 9: very feminine, and you know what, you dressed very feminine.
Speaker 9: You talk very feminine, femininely, like everything is feminine.
Speaker 1: The first photo shoot of the season was a wedding shoe.
Speaker 1: Corey was posing as the groom alongside one of the
Speaker 1: female models, Smoke.
Speaker 9: When I found out I was paired with Corey away
Speaker 9: scared because the most challenging part is going to be,
Speaker 9: like Corey being masculine.
Speaker 1: I just want to point out in this shoe there
Speaker 1: was a gay wedding, a lesbian wedding, a polygamy wedding,
Speaker 1: and one guy married a remote control so gender roles
Speaker 1: didn't seem that critical to the shoe. But here's the
Speaker 1: feedback Corey got from one of the judges.
Speaker 4: Corey, were you playing a guy or a woman in
Speaker 4: the shot? I was playing a guy.
Speaker 9: Okay, you're gonna have to work your stray guy a
Speaker 9: little more.
Speaker 1: I agree with Kelly, You're not selling a complete palostomin
Speaker 1: in this filer.
Speaker 9: I think this picture of you is absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 2: I don't see an epic fail smizing you're piercing the camera.
Speaker 1: That was Tyra. You heard at the end, and I
Speaker 1: will say by the time Corey competed on the show,
Speaker 1: Tyra seemed a bit more evolved. She for Corey in
Speaker 1: his femininity a lot on this season. One of the
Speaker 1: newer judges brought in for the co ed season was
Speaker 1: a straight male model named Rob Evans. Rob was rumored
Speaker 1: to be dating Tyra at this time, and when it
Speaker 1: came to Corey, he completely disagreed with his alleged lover.
Speaker 1: I don't particularly like this far that much.
Speaker 4: Was it's too feminine. We can tell him the same
Speaker 4: thing week after weekend. He just gets.
Speaker 1: Brainwashed by YouTube every single time.
Speaker 4: Brain washed. If he come into a place like presenting
Speaker 4: yourself the way you do, they will think you're the makeupart.
Speaker 1: Tyra and Kelly Catron, the other female judge on this season,
Speaker 1: didn't back down from Rob, and neither did Corey defends
Speaker 1: on the ground.
Speaker 4: I'm coming at you as a male model. I hear
Speaker 4: right now this Can I speak of this?
Speaker 3: Actually?
Speaker 4: Please go on?
Speaker 9: I really really love to work by androgeny. When my
Speaker 9: passion for modeling, you know, developed, and when it actually sparked,
Speaker 9: it's when I started seeing pictures of people you know
Speaker 9: who were more androgens, and in the past few years
Speaker 9: more of that has been coming out to the forefront.
Speaker 1: What's Gonna Happeny gave a heartfelt explanation that should have
Speaker 1: taken the attention off his so called lack of masculinity,
Speaker 1: but instead it made Rob Evans focus on it more.
Speaker 1: For Rob, the barometer for how well Corey performed in
Speaker 1: a runway or photoshoot was how masculine he could be.
Speaker 4: Choreer, I like this shot of you. It's very dude.
Speaker 1: If I didn't know any better, you pull off and
Speaker 1: do to me and good job, Manam.
Speaker 4: Bronie is a dude? You look like a man?
Speaker 3: What should I say?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 4: He is a man? Okay?
Speaker 1: I think you look straight in this? Yikes? Is that
Speaker 1: meant to be a compliment? Corey? The thing about you
Speaker 1: always know how to sell what you were, and I
Speaker 1: don't you have to tell you look.
Speaker 9: More money more. It's just that's what you're delivering. Good job.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't just Rob. Corey also got it from photographers.
Speaker 4: Oh Corey, that's this gay halls.
Speaker 5: Corey moves in quite a feminine way, and as a
Speaker 5: male model, you really have to appeal to men.
Speaker 9: Change.
Speaker 3: You gotta have a broad range.
Speaker 4: Hit it nice and strong, make it beautiful. Show me
Speaker 4: if your eyes can't see your eyes that job.
Speaker 1: Corey, that's masculine.
Speaker 3: Your body looks great.
Speaker 4: That god he does it look too girly though, No,
Speaker 4: that does feel Gurley. I don't want you to look girly.
Speaker 4: I want you to look like a man.
Speaker 1: Mind you. The last bit of tape you heard was
Speaker 1: from a photo shoot where Corey was supposed to be
Speaker 1: channeling Tyra's fierceness. He had photos of Tyra printed on
Speaker 1: his nails. Corey told me, even though he peeped that
Speaker 1: the show was going to make him their token gay guy,
Speaker 1: he didn't think he was going to be criticized for
Speaker 1: not being masculine enough. Historically, the industry is more inclusive
Speaker 1: of queer men, and that might have to do with
Speaker 1: the fact that the fashion world is pretty much run
Speaker 1: by gay men. So Cory told me he was blindsided
Speaker 1: by the feedback he got on A and TM and
Speaker 1: he didn't agree with it.
Speaker 9: You're sol feminine like. They just wouldn't stop with that.
Speaker 9: They were like, if you want to be a male model,
Speaker 9: you need to man up. Mascot like do all this bullshit. Okay,
Speaker 9: truthfully didn't know that that was coming.
Speaker 1: Corey expected more from A and TM.
Speaker 4: I'm not going to say it didn't hurt.
Speaker 9: I'm not going to say my emotions weren't real, okay,
Speaker 9: because they were. I was at the time going through
Speaker 9: an entire identity crisis.
Speaker 1: Today, Corey identifies as non binary and uses he and
Speaker 1: day pronouns. Back in twenty thirteen, when he was taping
Speaker 1: A and TM, he identified as a gay man.
Speaker 9: You know, I knew that I was gay, but words
Speaker 9: like non binary and gender queer they didn't really exist
Speaker 9: at the.
Speaker 4: Time, and I was kind of like feeling.
Speaker 9: In an other space in terms of like just my
Speaker 9: gender identity and being on a season of America's Next
Speaker 9: Up Model where gender is such a huge theme. Yeah,
Speaker 9: that definitely preyed on my emotional state, my mental state.
Speaker 4: It felt like my identity was being pried open.
Speaker 1: He went on that show to be famous, but being
Speaker 1: on ANTM wasn't awakening for Corey.
Speaker 4: That's a fight or flight moment.
Speaker 9: When you're on a judges panel and you're being told
Speaker 9: you're too gay, that's a fighter flight moment. And I
Speaker 9: think most people just want to shrink from that moment
Speaker 9: and like disappear in a puff of smoke, but he didn't.
Speaker 1: He pushed back when Rob Evans told him he was
Speaker 1: too feminine, and he continued to serve androgyny and femininity
Speaker 1: in the competition. He was the second runner up on
Speaker 1: his season.
Speaker 9: I'm proud to have been able to stand ten toes
Speaker 9: down and like have those conversations. I was prompted to
Speaker 9: just like meet that moment, and that you know, that
Speaker 9: was the production team at whoever was pulling the strings
Speaker 9: behind the seeds who put me in that position, and
Speaker 9: the judges for saying all of the stupid things they
Speaker 9: said about my femininity about being queer. That really teed
Speaker 9: up just like a beautiful educational moment. And people got
Speaker 9: mad online too, and people were like, wait a minute, No,
Speaker 9: you shouldn't be criticizing him this way for these things,
Speaker 9: like he's a model, you're not going to be able
Speaker 9: to understand anything about his sexual orientation through a photograph.
Speaker 1: Corey told me in a weird way, he's grateful to
Speaker 1: A and TM. The show didn't make him a superstar,
Speaker 1: but it did help him find his purpose.
Speaker 9: I was twenty two when we were filming that, like,
Speaker 9: my frontal cortex wasn't even fully developed, and there I
Speaker 9: was in the center of such an important conversation. At
Speaker 9: the time, I didn't know how big and important that was.
Speaker 9: This was twenty thirteen when my cycle of America's Next
Speaker 9: Up Model aired.
Speaker 4: We didn't even have marriage equality.
Speaker 9: I was sparking so many conversations around the world about
Speaker 9: queer identity, lgbtqiplus inclusivity. It was such a huge and
Speaker 9: impactful thing that was bigger than me, and it wasn't
Speaker 9: even what I was there for, but that was the
Speaker 9: thing that made it make sense for me, and I
Speaker 9: think that's what allowed me to come across as such
Speaker 9: like a strong person on the show. I really am
Speaker 9: proud of how I came across on the show. If
Speaker 9: anybody remembers, I was pretty pretty fierce.
Speaker 1: These days, Corey is an LGBTQ advocate and educator.
Speaker 9: This passion of mine to educate in this way was
Speaker 9: born out of the first time I ever had to
Speaker 9: publicly stand up for myself and speak truth to my
Speaker 9: experience as an LGBTQI plus person while being criticized for
Speaker 9: my queer identity on America's sexonth model.
Speaker 1: After A and TM, Corey says he kept in contact
Speaker 1: with Tyra. She's actually recommended him for a few jobs.
Speaker 1: He told me he'll always have respect for her and
Speaker 1: the way she advocated for him on Cycle twenty. But
Speaker 1: Corey thinks the choice of focus on his sexuality and
Speaker 1: gender expression was a missed opportunity for A and TM
Speaker 1: to do something transformative.
Speaker 9: As viewers of these shows, our ideology is being shaped
Speaker 9: by what we see, even if it's on a subliminal level,
Speaker 9: even if we don't realize it.
Speaker 4: You have so much power when you have a show
Speaker 4: like that.
Speaker 1: Corey wishes A and TM treated his queerness like it
Speaker 1: was just another thing about him, instead of making it
Speaker 1: his entire storyline. He thanks doing this could have normalized
Speaker 1: homosexuality for a lot of viewers.
Speaker 9: That would have been so daring just to treat it
Speaker 9: like it was nothing. Maybe then people watching would have
Speaker 9: had less of like a oh, like such a tense.
Speaker 9: It's feeling around the idea that somebody loves differently expresses differently.
Speaker 1: After the break, we're going to talk about Ices King.
Speaker 1: For millions of Americans, she was probably the first trans
Speaker 1: woman they'd ever seen. On televison, but behind the scenes
Speaker 1: she was being treated like a spectacle. Isis King's inclusion
Speaker 1: on A and TM cycle eleven not only sparked a
Speaker 1: huge conversation among the models on her season, it sparked
Speaker 1: a huge conversation in America. Harris Tyra introducing Isis on
Speaker 1: her talk show.
Speaker 2: Never in the history of America's Next Top Model has
Speaker 2: there ever been a finalist who was so controversial, so
Speaker 2: talked about, and so blogged about. If you google her
Speaker 2: name and top Model together, you get more than four
Speaker 2: hundred thousand search results, almost half a million search results.
Speaker 2: I think you guys know who I'm talking about.
Speaker 4: Isis?
Speaker 1: Check her out. Is The fifth presence on ANTM was polarizing.
Speaker 1: There were a lot of people who didn't think she
Speaker 1: belonged on the show, and they were pretty nasty about it.
Speaker 1: Here's a Fox News segment about Isis.
Speaker 2: She wants to be America's next Top one model, but
Speaker 2: there's a hitch on this one that she actually used
Speaker 2: to be he and I think still is.
Speaker 4: She tells or he tells us magazine.
Speaker 10: That she identifies herself as a woman born physically male.
Speaker 2: She's told you, guys, now my cards were dealt differently.
Speaker 1: Boy, that's an understatement. Fox later apologized after Glad reached
Speaker 1: out and told them it was offensive, but that transphobic
Speaker 1: attitude was reflected in the Model House. Sharon Brown, who
Speaker 1: you heard from a few episodes ago, was on Cycle
Speaker 1: eleven with Isis. She's the model who was sent home
Speaker 1: in the first elimination after bullying Isis. Sharon told me
Speaker 1: the bullying we saw her do was a bit of
Speaker 1: a setup by the producers, but after Sharon left, things
Speaker 1: got uglier and much more pointed.
Speaker 8: I generally wouldn't hang out with characters like Alina Orshina
Speaker 8: or Isis because she's a transgender.
Speaker 9: Cannot push Isis, and I wasn't appreciated.
Speaker 1: On Cycle eleven. There were a few small town Southern
Speaker 1: contestants who were uncomfortable with Isis being in the competition,
Speaker 1: and they would say really nasty and even violent things
Speaker 1: about Isis behind her back.
Speaker 8: Sometimes people have a more view of trensition.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like I almost felt, well.
Speaker 8: I'm a like time of a small town.
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, we will yeah, hell yeah, you.
Speaker 4: Were growing that in a small town.
Speaker 1: You were shot.
Speaker 2: I feel like I do very well in the real
Speaker 2: world of modeling.
Speaker 1: I just don't see iss being booked because of the
Speaker 1: way her body is mount still very manly, like the
Speaker 1: hand and the feet and the waste.
Speaker 6: I think it's about time for Isis to go home
Speaker 6: while it's just not for her.
Speaker 1: While those girls were whispering about Isis, she was in
Speaker 1: another room talking with other contestants about the way she
Speaker 1: was being treated.
Speaker 3: A lot of women, I found are intimidated.
Speaker 4: Because you do girls better than most girls.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I'm slightful by myself.
Speaker 5: I don't try and think about whether I think it's
Speaker 5: right or wrong what you're doing, because it's not my
Speaker 5: choice to make for you.
Speaker 4: Isis Is always.
Speaker 7: Gonna have people talking about her, and she needs to just,
Speaker 7: you know, keep strong.
Speaker 3: Whatever I think, whatever you want, But when I'm full on,
Speaker 3: when I'm on that wrong way, what do you want
Speaker 3: to task? You can't tell me, not fast.
Speaker 1: I'm here for the long run and you're one.
Speaker 10: Of us, Iszis.
Speaker 1: This was Isis's running storyline. A girl or group of
Speaker 1: girls were mean and hateful to her. Isis stood up
Speaker 1: to her bullies, rolls above it, and moved on to
Speaker 1: the next round until she was eliminated on episode five.
Speaker 1: In later interviews, Isis said the bullying and bigotry she
Speaker 1: faced on A and TM was about the same as
Speaker 1: what she experienced in the real world at that time.
Speaker 1: Outside of having to defend herself against a house full
Speaker 1: of bigots over and over, Isis got a pretty good
Speaker 1: at it. She was an underdog who proved her bullies wrong.
Speaker 1: But what we didn't see was how the production team
Speaker 1: put Isis's boundaries and set her up. Remember that cute
Speaker 1: scene where she took her hormone shot while another contestant
Speaker 1: helped distract her.
Speaker 3: She's somebody who's really cool. So I saw her and
Speaker 3: I asked her, would she kind of helped distract me
Speaker 3: while I'm giving myself the injection.
Speaker 8: It's something that means so much to her, and to
Speaker 8: share that with her was quite a personal moment.
Speaker 10: I thought.
Speaker 1: I took it as a huge compliment that you asked
Speaker 1: me to be there, so thank you. In the past
Speaker 1: few years, Isis opened up about the real story behind
Speaker 1: this trailblazing moment. She says production manipulated her. Here she
Speaker 1: is talking to J Manual in his j Chat series.
Speaker 3: At the time, I was taking hormone injections. But right
Speaker 3: before I left to do the show, I had to
Speaker 3: give myself a hormone shot. I saw blood and I fainted.
Speaker 3: So two weeks later, when I had to do my
Speaker 3: next shot, I fainted again.
Speaker 10: So I was in a.
Speaker 3: Process of figuring out how to switch from shots to
Speaker 3: pills because I just couldn't handle it when I went on.
Speaker 3: So when I went on the show, I knew that
Speaker 3: it's a chance I could faint, and I was still
Speaker 3: so new to transitioning. I didn't want to do that
Speaker 3: on camera. So I asked them, Hey, when we do
Speaker 3: our next photoshoot, can the medic administer my.
Speaker 1: Shot because we have medics on set.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I said, of course, of course photoshoot came around.
Speaker 3: Oh no, the medic can't do it today, I said.
Speaker 1: Said the next day, when they were shooting, she was
Speaker 1: told the same thing, the medic couldn't do it. She says.
Speaker 1: This went on for days. I said started to get worried.
Speaker 1: She was new to transitioning and didn't know what would
Speaker 1: happen if she missed her hormone shot. She said. After
Speaker 1: a few days, she got a call on the production phone,
Speaker 1: that's the house phone. The producers use when they want
Speaker 1: to relay a message to the contestants off camera.
Speaker 3: They call up, Hey, so the medic won't be able
Speaker 3: to do your shot. And I was like, what do
Speaker 3: you mean the medic can't do my shot? Like a
Speaker 3: week ago, there was gonna do my shot, like I
Speaker 3: need to do it. They said, yeah, you have to
Speaker 3: do your shot. Bring one of the girls to be
Speaker 3: in there with you so you don't think And I
Speaker 3: was just like, wow, see, I did not know that.
Speaker 1: You have never told me that ANTIM had a rule
Speaker 1: about filming. If more than one girl was in the
Speaker 1: shower or bathroom at the same time, the camera was
Speaker 1: allowed to be in there too. The producers could have
Speaker 1: stayed with Isis while she took her shot off camera
Speaker 1: to make sure she didn't pass out and to call
Speaker 1: the medic if she did, but instead they told her
Speaker 1: to take another contestant with her to the bathroom.
Speaker 3: So I honestly didn't want to do it on camera,
Speaker 3: one because I was scared I was gonna faint, and
Speaker 3: then two, I just don't want to do it on
Speaker 3: a fucking camera. Me being trans in itself, that's enough
Speaker 3: of an impact. I don't need to do a homeom
Speaker 3: shot on camera.
Speaker 1: I did not know the level of manipulation.
Speaker 8: Am I gonna say it surprises me?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 1: Uh that I will say there was a lot of that.
Speaker 1: Maybe Tyra and Ken Mock thought having this moment would
Speaker 1: be groundbreaking and powerful. According to j Manguele, they fought
Speaker 1: for it to air. I have to give props to
Speaker 1: Tyra ken Mock, the producers. They really fought for this
Speaker 1: moment with the network. Maybe Tyra and Ken knew it
Speaker 1: would make great TV, get people talking, and bring in
Speaker 1: a lot of viewers, and they were right. But telling
Speaker 1: Isis she could have the medic administer her hormone shot
Speaker 1: and then pulling the rug from under her at the
Speaker 1: last moment was wrong. If they wanted to make this
Speaker 1: a part of her storyline, she should have been the
Speaker 1: first person to sign off on it, not to mention
Speaker 1: it put her health at risk. Isis fainted at the
Speaker 1: sight of blood, and she'd already passed out twice trying
Speaker 1: to self administer her hormone shot. Antium turned what should
Speaker 1: have been a private moment into ratings fodder. It wasn't
Speaker 1: the last time they tried to turn her experience into
Speaker 1: a spectacle. Isis said during her season, the producers removed
Speaker 1: the door from the bathroom and replaced it with a curtain.
Speaker 1: Iis doesn't know if they did it because of her
Speaker 1: or two of the other models who would sneak in
Speaker 1: the bathroom and have off camera conversations, but either way
Speaker 1: it made Iceis extremely uncomfortable. Here she is talking to
Speaker 1: Oliver Twist about it on his YouTube channel.
Speaker 3: So at one point they took the doors off the
Speaker 3: bathrooms and it was just like a little curtain air
Speaker 3: but when you walk by, it blows, and I was
Speaker 3: just like, okay, I have these a bathroom. At the time,
Speaker 3: I was just learning how to like take myself and
Speaker 3: I was just learning these things, and I was just like,
Speaker 3: I was like, why would they do that? Like when
Speaker 3: you walk by, it breathed, you know, the breeze make
Speaker 3: the curtain move, and I'm just like, somebody could easy.
Speaker 3: You can't not like you can open the curtain and
Speaker 3: see me using a bathroom or be taking a shower.
Speaker 3: The showers are clear glass, and in my head, like
Speaker 3: that was one of the most terrifying things. You know,
Speaker 3: I wasn't I didn't have a connection with my body
Speaker 3: in that sense, So I didn't want anybody to see me,
Speaker 3: and I was just like, I'm going to have a moment.
Speaker 1: By moment, Isis means she was afraid her body would
Speaker 1: be exposed on camera. Remember, part of the contract, producers
Speaker 1: could use footage of contestants clothed or naked, whether they
Speaker 1: knew they were being taped or not. So Isis got
Speaker 1: really conscious of when and where she would get dressed.
Speaker 3: So usually try to shower or do stuff at certain times,
Speaker 3: or if I know I was going to do something
Speaker 3: like outside the show, I was just like, let me
Speaker 3: wait until the girls are loading up, because I just
Speaker 3: don't want to have a moment where I'm trying to
Speaker 3: do something to make myself feel comfortable and somebody walk in.
Speaker 3: So I really hated that they took the doors off,
Speaker 3: and they worded it like it was because the girls
Speaker 3: they were going to shower to talk, because then you know,
Speaker 3: and there you couldn't have a mic on. But they
Speaker 3: didn't want us to really be around each other without mics.
Speaker 3: So when the doors came off, the hinges I would
Speaker 3: say that was a moment for me when I was
Speaker 3: just like, that's a little weird, especially you know for me,
Speaker 3: I don't want a special privilege, but I at least
Speaker 3: want some type of privacy. So whenever I even I
Speaker 3: took a shower, I would put my towel over the
Speaker 3: top of the shower the glass, and I would just
Speaker 3: take a shower in that block, so at least as
Speaker 3: somebody did walk in, they wouldn't see me. It's like
Speaker 3: little things that people didn't think about or wouldn't think about.
Speaker 1: Antium wanted to bring a trans model into the competition.
Speaker 1: They wanted the attention her presence would bring to the show.
Speaker 1: They maybe even wanted to spark a conversation and normalize transidentity,
Speaker 1: but they didn't facilitate a situation where Isis could feel comfortable.
Speaker 1: They prioritized the story and the ratings over the actual person.
Speaker 1: After Isis was eliminated, Tyra brought her on her talk
Speaker 1: show to talk about being trans. Isis's mom came with
Speaker 1: her and talked about her own journey to accepting her daughter.
Speaker 1: Tyra even brought one of the bullies you heard in
Speaker 1: the tape earlier to have this weird debate. The girl
Speaker 1: was trying to justify her right to disagree with Isis
Speaker 1: even existing At the end of the segment, Tyra brought
Speaker 1: out the leading gender affirming surgeon in the country, doctor
Speaker 1: Marcy Bowers. The surgeon told Isis she wanted to do
Speaker 1: her gender affirming surgery and she was going to arrange
Speaker 1: for it to be paid, so Isis didn't have to
Speaker 1: come up with the twenty five to thirty thousand dollars herself.
Speaker 4: You have some news for Isis.
Speaker 10: What news do you have for Issis?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 10: I just want to say your story really touches my
Speaker 10: heart and I saw you actually first on MSNBC. I think,
Speaker 10: isn't it is that right? But I can relate to you,
Speaker 10: and I know what difference that surgery can make in
Speaker 10: your life and improve things for the better. So what
Speaker 10: I want to do is evaluate you for the processes
Speaker 10: of going through the surgery, and if I can get
Speaker 10: the money together, i'd like you to come out, assuming
Speaker 10: you want.
Speaker 4: Me to do your surgery.
Speaker 1: I want to do this for you.
Speaker 3: What you say, this is not happening.
Speaker 2: This is not happening.
Speaker 3: How do you feel It doesn't feel like it's like
Speaker 3: I'm about to wake up.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm about the wake up. Thank you.
Speaker 2: You're welcome.
Speaker 1: For Tyra this was a story that kept on giving.
Speaker 1: After her surgery, Tyra brought Isis, her mother, and the
Speaker 1: surgeon back on her show to talk about the whole process,
Speaker 1: and in my opinion, Tyra and the surgeon got a
Speaker 1: little too personal.
Speaker 2: Now I know, there's something called dilating that that isis
Speaker 2: Is supposed to be doing.
Speaker 10: Explained dilating, Well, patients that have gone from male to
Speaker 10: female need to keep the vagina open.
Speaker 1: Because Isis's boyfriend Desmond joined them on stage for this segment, So.
Speaker 4: Is she dilating to be able to have sex? Yeah?
Speaker 10: What it is to keep the vagina open and to
Speaker 10: allow potentially some action.
Speaker 2: So Desmond, are you over there going?
Speaker 4: Come on, baby? You got to dilate.
Speaker 1: There's a weird dynamic that can creep into conversations about
Speaker 1: trans people. I'm talking about the tendency for people to
Speaker 1: ask really invasive personal questions that are frankly, none of
Speaker 1: their business. The questions are usually about sex, bodily functions,
Speaker 1: and private body parts, questions people usually shy away from.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's from genuine curiosity and a desire to understand,
Speaker 1: and there are some people who feel like education is
Speaker 1: the first step to normalization and acceptance, but a lot
Speaker 1: of times the line of questioning is just voyeuristic. Non
Speaker 1: trans people are obsessed with trans people's bodies. I don't
Speaker 1: know what Tyra was trying to accomplish here. It was
Speaker 1: the twenty tens and conversations like these weren't exactly mainstream.
Speaker 1: But there's something about watching these segments today that feels icky,
Speaker 1: like Tyra was trying to make Isis a sideshow act.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of complicated feelings about Isis' time
Speaker 1: on A and TM. I know it was groundbreaking. Way
Speaker 1: Tyra and ANTM went about presenting Isis seems wrong. I
Speaker 1: also know I have the benefit of thinking about this
Speaker 1: almost twenty years after it aired. Isis talked about this
Speaker 1: dynamic in an interview with Logo.
Speaker 3: We look at things in a different lens than now.
Speaker 3: So when people say, oh, this shouldn't treated you like that,
Speaker 3: it makes me feel some type of way because I
Speaker 3: didn't have that support back then. I didn't have people
Speaker 3: come into my rescue. I just think that it's really
Speaker 3: easy to point fingers now. I mean, obviously the stuff
Speaker 3: was wrong, but we're in a different era and we
Speaker 3: were obviously different people we're way more I think as
Speaker 3: a as a people way more sensitive to problematic shit.
Speaker 3: So it's just hard to look at something back then
Speaker 3: because if you didn't say nothing about it back then,
Speaker 3: I don't say nothing now because y'all day show wasn't.
Speaker 1: Coming to my rescue. I was in this hell.
Speaker 3: I love to dress. Nobody didn't come and throw me
Speaker 3: no life wrath.
Speaker 1: They let me during. Isis seems to have mixed feelings
Speaker 1: about Tyra and A and TM today and the interviews
Speaker 1: you heard earlier, you can tell she was clearly uncomfortable
Speaker 1: with the behind the scenes stunts A ANDTM pulled, but
Speaker 1: she also seems grateful to Tyra and the show for
Speaker 1: the opportunity. I mean Tyra helped her get gender affirming surgery.
Speaker 1: Isis also says the exposure she got from A ANDTM
Speaker 1: changed her life.
Speaker 3: I would say, out of most of the girls, I
Speaker 3: was just like one of the ones that benefited the
Speaker 3: most from the show.
Speaker 1: Isis is a queer icon. She's one of the most
Speaker 1: famous trans people in America. She's an activist, speaker, and actress.
Speaker 1: But being on the show didn't just change her life,
Speaker 1: it changed the lives of so many queer people watching her.
Speaker 1: I'm not exaggerating when I say seeing Isis on TV
Speaker 1: was a lifeline. Multiple viewers have reached out to Isis
Speaker 1: to tell her what her representation on A ANDTM meant
Speaker 1: to them.
Speaker 3: A month or two after I got eliminated, this young
Speaker 3: gay kid sent me a message and said I was
Speaker 3: about to commit suicide and seeing your story helped me
Speaker 3: realize there was a light at the end of the tunnel,
Speaker 3: and I remember crying and being like, oh snop, Like
Speaker 3: this is so much bigger than just my moment.
Speaker 1: And she's still inspiring a new generation of queer viewers
Speaker 1: who are just discovering A and TM. I don't know
Speaker 1: if she would have accomplished all this without the show,
Speaker 1: or if her casting would have had such a huge
Speaker 1: impact had top model decided to do it later when
Speaker 1: people were more comfortable with trans identity. But being a
Speaker 1: pioneer often comes with a cost. And while I can
Speaker 1: say A and TM played a pivotal role in changing
Speaker 1: attitudes towards queer people in pop culture, it seems like
Speaker 1: the contestants are the ones who bore that cost. They
Speaker 1: got the hate messages, they had to defend themselves against
Speaker 1: their castmates. They had to explain their identity to the
Speaker 1: judges in face criticism for just being them. With all
Speaker 1: that in mind, I asked Corey Wade what he thinks
Speaker 1: A and TM's legacy is when it comes to queer representation.
Speaker 9: I do think they found some really, really amazing queer
Speaker 9: representatives on that show who, just like I believe I did,
Speaker 9: met those moments with grace. I just think we need
Speaker 9: to give Isis her flowers. I'm so grateful that people
Speaker 9: like this exist and have been uplifted to this platform.
Speaker 9: There's a lot of beauty in what America's Next Time
Speaker 9: Model has done.
Speaker 1: For all its failings. In many ways, this was one
Speaker 1: thing A and TM got right, but for contestants like Corey,
Speaker 1: it's still complicated.
Speaker 4: I feel so many different ways about this.
Speaker 9: I'm proud, but I'm angry, but I understand, but I'm
Speaker 9: angry but I'm grateful.
Speaker 1: On the next episode, we finally tackle one of America's
Speaker 1: Next Top models biggest sins. We're going to talk about
Speaker 1: the body shaming and mixed messages about eating disorders that
Speaker 1: became synonymous with the show.
Speaker 2: She's huge, She's not going to be a top mom
Speaker 2: My biggest problem is the body shape.
Speaker 6: I thank you.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't want to see her in the swimsuit. You
Speaker 4: gotta work on the side. Her body is just doing.
Speaker 9: What's it's all going, Pasha?
Speaker 2: Is what you're finding?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Okay.
Speaker 1: We reached out to Tyra Banks and A and TM
Speaker 1: executive producer Ken Mock so they could provide more perspective
Speaker 1: on isis King's time on A and TM and Tyra's
Speaker 1: talk show and what we've discussed on this episode, but
Speaker 1: we did not hear back from them before airing this episode.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model.
Speaker 1: We're grateful for your support. We'd love for you to
Speaker 1: really show your support by subscribing to our show on
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Speaker 1: If you love the show, tell your group, chat your
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Speaker 1: Next Top Model is a production of Glass Podcasts, a
Speaker 1: division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcast.
Speaker 1: The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and
Speaker 1: singer produced by me Bridget Armstrong. Our story editor is
Speaker 1: Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning.
Speaker 1: Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin Melcriy, and Curry Richmond.
Speaker 1: Consulting producers on this podcast are Oliver TwixT and Kate Taylor.
Speaker 1: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio
Speaker 1: editing on this episode by Matt del Vecchio, Andrew Callaway
Speaker 1: and Tanner Robbins. The Curse of America's Next Top Model
Speaker 1: theme was composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by
Speaker 1: my Music Special Thanks to everyone we interviewed, especially the
Speaker 1: former contestants, and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
Speaker 1: Also check out the Etglass podcast Instagram for Curse of
Speaker 1: America's Next Top Model behind the scenes content.