WEBVTT - Fierce, Queer, and Flawed | EP 8 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:02.760 Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:05.560 your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:08.520 season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.879 the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.320 stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.320 want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.840 Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:24.279 Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of, 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:27.240 and a few you didn't like former A and TM 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:32.080 judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.159 of the long running TV series through the untold stories 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.519 of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:43.640 opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation, 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:47.560 shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.919 docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E Network. 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:54.120 Check your local TV provider schedule. 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.840 This girl is absolutely amazing. She's got to come back 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.440 for America's Next Top Model. I said this girl, and 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:04.000 my staff said, Tira, there's something a little different about 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:05.920 that girl? So what's different about that girl? 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:09.720 In two thousand and eight, Isis King made America's next 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:11.520 top model history. 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:16.200 I was born physically male, but mentally everything else I 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:19.039 was born female. Some people might say that I'm a transgender. 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:22.200 Some people might say transsexual. Personally, I prefer born on 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:24.840 the wrong body, meaning I was born physically male on 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:27.640 the outside, but everything else about me was female. 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:31.440 Isis was the first out trans contestant on A and TM. 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.240 For a lot of viewers, this was their first time 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:37.240 seeing a trans person on a reality show talking so 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:38.839 openly about their identity. 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:41.640 Tell me about when you knew that you were a 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:43.120 girl as long as I can remember. 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:44.479 It's not something I've chose. 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:45.840 This is who always been. 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.440 And of course Tyra got real personal, real quick. 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:54.960 So let's talk about surgery. Are you stop transgender? Pre opt? 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:57.240 And do you want to have the surgery one day? 0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:58.040 If I could have it. 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.720 Right now, I would a hell of a story. On 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.120 cycle ten, the models did a shoot where they were 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:07.600 supposed to serve homeless shekh you know, living on the streets, 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:11.760 but make it fashion. A and TM used actual people 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:16.000 experiencing homelessness. It's extras. In the shoot, Isis was living 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:19.000 at the shelter A and TM partnered with you were 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:20.680 one of the girls from the shelter who. 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:23.639 Participated in our shoot in the background as an extra. 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:26.000 Let's face it, there's a reason you're here because you 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:29.920 know how to give me katoul and yes, there we go. 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:31.160 It blew me away. 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:33.600 She's laid better than some of the actual A and 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.080 TM models. So Tyra cast her on the next season, 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:40.360 cycle eleven. You know she loves her at Cinderella Story 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.160 and from the moment Isis walked on the set, she 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:47.000 had to face some evil stepsisters. So Isis. I thought 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.680 she looked little manly like I have small. 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.359 Boobs too, but her boobs she has no boots. 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:56.840 So I told her to come over here with like, 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:58.720 come here, and you know you're part of. 0:02:58.639 --> 0:02:59.840 The Citty committee. 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.359 Though y'all want to figure me out, right, y'all want 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:02.959 to figure me out. 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:06.600 During the audition, Isis was minding her business when a 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.040 group of girls called her over to ask why her 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:12.240 boobs were so small? Way to tap dance around the question. 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.760 So it's true, is what truck are you? 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:17.560 Physically? 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:19.359 Without wanting on what. 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:24.000 Started out is caddy. Curiosity quickly turned mean, spirited and bigoted. 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.560 My mind was like, what girl, how'd you Ain't you 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:29.119 supposed to be a girl competition? 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:35.680 How did you get through the door in up? 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.680 If I have to get along with Isis, I will, 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:41.720 But then again, if it comes between me and my goal, 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:43.240 I'll stop. 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:46.680 Let man write out of the competition. And this was 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:50.200 just during the auditions. Once Isis made it into the house, 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:54.400 things got worse. I'm not gonna lie. 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:57.400 It makes me uncomfortable as hell. Olnam brings me out 0:03:57.400 --> 0:03:59.680 that when she got something else different down there than me. 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:02.160 I could think the thing about Isis so is like 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:04.720 I was like trying to convince myself I was comfortable 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:07.360 like Henney comfort, Henry un comfortable, But really I'm not. 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:09.800 Sometimes people have a more view of transition. 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:11.880 Yeah, like I always felt I'm a. 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:13.160 Like time of a small town. 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:15.760 Hell yeah, we won't want yoh you Hell yeah, you 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:17.160 were growing. 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:17.599 That in a small town. 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:21.320 You was shot, But not everyone was terrible. There were 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.400 a few girls who were welcoming and supportive of Isis. 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.840 Now that person this shot, I mean for this competition 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:29.840 is going to be Pasha mad and it is your 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:32.680 spirit and how much she wanted to be for Isis 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:34.880 to be so brave and so secure with who she 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.720 is and being able to not let anything bother her, 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:39.560 It's very commendable. 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.200 Isis made a few friends and she found girls she 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:46.840 could trust with her most private moments. Isis had just 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:50.719 started transitioning before cycle eleven. She was new to taking 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:53.800 hormone injections. She didn't want to do it alone, so 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:57.000 she asked another contestant, Annalie Tipton, to keep her. 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:59.720 Company in not to keep up my transition, I have 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:03.720 to hormonal injections. Are you heard of needles? Gnia tell 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.440 Annalie she's somebody who's really cool. So I saw her 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:09.480 and I asked her what. She kind of helped distract 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:11.440 me while I'm giving myself the injection. 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:14.359 They can make superfaces for you. 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:15.360 I'm lucky. 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:18.560 I knew I mean chicken impression. 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.320 She's had me laughing and made it a lot easier 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.240 for me. Now I'm starting to get like Nausea's Yeah. 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:28.919 It's something that means so much to her, and to 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:31.279 share that with there was quite a personal moment. 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:31.600 I thought. 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:33.800 I took it as a huge compliment that you asked 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:34.960 me to be there, so thank you. 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.880 It looked like a sweet moment. Years after A and T, 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.440 m Annalie came out as non binary. Today they go 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.359 by Leo, But in two thousand and eight, there was 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.600 barely any public conversation about trans identity. When there was, 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:53.599 trans people were the butt of the joke or met 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:59.320 with fear and disdain. Seeing Ices take her hormone injection 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:03.880 on camera was groundbreaking. Producers presented isis in a way 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.719 that humanized her struggle. The audience saw the ridicule she 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:10.800 faced from the other girls, and we saw her dedication 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:14.640 to transitioning. It sent the message that trans people aren't 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.919 confused about their gender. They're people who are willing to 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:21.640 go to great lengths to affirm their gender. It was 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.640 a big deal for this to happen on broadcast television, 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:27.480 and it's a moment that seared into the memory of 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:31.920 a lot of queer people. It might be hard to 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.240 remember these days, but A and TM was actually a 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:38.760 pioneer in queer representation. In two thousand and five, the 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.279 queer feminist website After Ellen called A and TM the 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:46.719 queerest place in prime time. But the problem was those 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:50.440 groundbreaking moments often came at the expense of the queer 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:56.400 contestants themselves, like that sweet moment where Isis took her 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.520 hormone shot. She says she didn't want to do it. 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.520 According to Isis, A and TM producers deceived her into 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:07.760 doing it on camera. I want to be on some 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.080 Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:25.320 Bridget Armstrong. America's Next Top Model stands out as a 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:30.000 pioneer in LGBTQ representation. But like everything with this show, 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:33.920 the way they treated those representatives was complicated, in part 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.000 because A and TM was always thinking about the story, 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:42.440 not necessarily the contestants. The impact of the decision to 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:46.920 cast Isis King can't be measured. It was pivotal for 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.680 so many trans viewers who'd never seen positive portrayals of 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:54.320 people like them. Isis was a symbol of what's possible. 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:57.760 But behind the scenes, Isis felt like A and TM 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:01.600 was trying to make her a spectacle. When A and 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.600 TM went co ed on cycle twenty, they cast a 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:08.520 gender fluid gay man before those terms were even mainstream. 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:12.160 He challenged the idea that male models must be overtly 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:16.560 masculine and he had to because the judges constantly chastised 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:20.000 him for being too feminine. But A and TM is 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.360 also the show that gave us iconic queer judges Jay 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:27.440 Manuel Nole, Marin j Alexander or Miss Jay and later 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.800 Andre Leon Talley and law Roach. It's a show that 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.720 featured an openly lesbian contestant on season one and highlighted 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.120 her loving relationship. It's a show that featured queer and 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:42.240 gender fluid contestants from the beginning until the end. So 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:44.800 on this episode, we're going to take a look at 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.120 everything A and TM got right and wrong when it 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:51.959 comes to gender and sexual identity. We'll explore had they 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:55.319 broke barriers and changed the world while harming the very 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:57.680 contestants they were changing the world for. 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.680 I guys might go to school at Wesleyan University, which 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:05.440 is in Connecticut. 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:09.080 We're at the Cycle five auditions and a contestant named 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:12.880 Kim Stoles just entered the competition. She's rocking a v 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:16.319 Nex sweater over a tie and button up shirt, collar popped. 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:20.320 Very preppy, very two thousand and five. At this point, 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:22.600 you've heard me say this a lot, because we're talking 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:26.280 about a modeling show and everyone's pretty, but Kim was 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:30.719 gorgeous when it came to her face card. She was 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:32.959 a classic beauty, or at least that's what I think 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.560 white people mean when they say that her mom was 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.440 a high fashion model in the eighties. That's probably where 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:40.960 she got her looks from. Kim had a short, dark 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:45.000 brown pixie cut in doe green eyes. Her haircut combined 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:47.480 with her cutesy face kind of made her look like 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.800 a baby doll. But something about Kim made her stand 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:52.720 out for the rest of the girls, and it wasn't 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:53.400 just her beauty. 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:57.559 To be honest with you, like, I think I can 0:09:57.559 --> 0:09:59.560 bring something different to modeling. Can I feel a little 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:01.719 bit more of a I don't want to say masculine, 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:05.679 but I'm as well not killing luck whatever who I 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.600 want to be out like I'm gay and I am 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:09.840 I'm really proud of it. 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.040 I think this a certain thing of being proud, Like 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:13.719 I'm black and proud, you know what I mean. 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:15.360 But I'm not like walking down the red carpet. I'm 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.000 not I'm a crowd, you know what I'm saying. 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:20.800 One thing about Cyra Banks, She's gonna make a moment 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:21.800 about herself. 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:23.880 I'm certainly not gonna, like, you know, walk down the 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:25.360 red car and like try to kiss girls on the way. 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:26.480 You know, that's like not what I'm gonna do. 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.480 Kim wasn't the first contestant who was openly queer on 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.320 the show. We talked about Ebony Haight from cycle one, 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.160 Michelle Dayton from cycle four was bisexual, and there are 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.880 other models who came out after the show. I will 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.920 say this about A and TM after cycle one, they 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:47.839 rarely explored storylines about a contestant's discomfort with another contestant sexuality. 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.600 Maybe it was a reflection of society's growing acceptance. So 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:55.120 unlike Ebony on season one, Kim didn't seem to face 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:58.240 any criticism from the other models simply because she was gay. 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:02.720 In fact, several of them seemed quite curious. Kim even 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:04.840 had a little fleeing in the house with another model, 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.360 despite Kim having a girlfriend. Are you are you full 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.160 on lesbian? Are I mean you're not by or I 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:12.240 only did girls? 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:15.080 Yeah, a lot of these girls I don't know anyone 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:16.960 like who is gay, and like it's like kind of 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.880 exciting for them, But I mean I miss my girlfriend 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.840 from home, and like I'm in like an open relationship, 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:24.720 but I don't plan on acting on that. 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:26.880 She definitely acted on it. 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:29.439 We're oven right now and she can make out on 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:30.000 until she wants. 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:31.800 I don't care as long as like chance PUSI get back. 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:33.520 Yeah, that was probably ridiculous. 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.000 Hopefull's ridiculous because'm hit on. 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:36.240 That's crazy. 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:37.600 I'll hang out with you, Kim. 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:39.640 Whatever. 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.880 Kim identified as a lesbian, but she was still figuring 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:46.920 out her gender expression. This was two thousand and five, 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:51.360 before terms like non binary or gender fluid were widely accepted. 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:55.080 With the judges, it wasn't Kim's sexuality they focused on. 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.520 It was what they saw as her lack of femininity. 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.560 On the first run way of the season, the models 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.240 had to do their own makeup. Kim had never worn makeup. 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.000 The models wore cocktail dresses and heels and had to 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:10.000 walk down this oddly shaped runway. It was meant to 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.800 be confusing, and let's just say a lot of the 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:17.000 walks were not good, including Kim's. Here's what the judges 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:17.400 told her. 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:22.559 Next, we have Kim, Oh no, oh, what was the neck? 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:23.400 I don't know. 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:27.840 You're trying to be something that you're not. You're trying 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.079 to be so sexy and so girly and you look 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:32.280 like a Manda dress girl. You just need to go 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:34.359 with your strong masculinity. 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:35.480 That's what brought you here. 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:38.559 They put Kim in a cocktail dress, heels and makeup 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:42.280 and then chastise her for trying to be girly. But fine. 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.360 It was the first episode and at least Tyra encouraged 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:49.280 him to embrace her androgyny to be herself, but that 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:53.040 encouragement did not last long. Kim got a lot of 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.080 mixed messages from the panel. When she tried to be herself, 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.079 she was told she was too masculine. When she pushed 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:02.760 herself to be more fit, the judges seemed surprised and delighted. 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.560 Your film shocked the hell out of me. This is 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.400 so like beyond feminine. It was amazing. If you just 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:11.199 showed me that, I wouldn't have known that was Kim. 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:12.240 She has a ketcher smith. 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:13.320 Look at those palls. 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.560 One time, Nigel Barker even made a joke out of 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:18.640 calling her Tim instead of Kim. 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:21.000 I would never believe it's the same person, and I. 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:25.240 Think this is a turning point for Tim. Tim. 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:26.920 You sure did I saw that. 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:31.120 Tim by day, Tim by night, I actually think she's hot, hot, hot, 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:33.640 hot hot, which means I'm getting in touch with my 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:35.880 androgynous feminine side. 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:36.959 Maybe I'm not really sure. 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.559 Kim got a lot of contradicting messages from the judges 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:42.400 when it came to her a gender expression. 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:44.880 Kim, you learned how did do all that feminine stuff? 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:48.640 But today I asked for a signature walk, Kim, I 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:49.920 asked for you today. 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:52.120 I'm constantly trying to figure out what my gender is. 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:55.120 That's hard in life, in this competition, every day, all 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:55.480 the time. 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.559 I suggest that you get some male fashion magazines, because 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:02.280 when men model, they're slightly feminine, right. You can learn 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.880 from looking at that as well as female magazines. 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.240 A PM did bring supermodel Jenny Smith to the house 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:12.120 to talk to the girls. Jenny was queer and gender 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.000 non conforming. She talked to the models about finding their 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:16.080 own lane in fashion. 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.520 My big story is that a minority. I am five 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:24.360 foot seven, I have a lot of tattoos and a 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:25.000 game model. 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.080 Kim theemed especially inspired. 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:29.440 It's really an important thing for me to see not 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.360 conforming too, just a generalized kind of woman. 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.000 I've always been a tomboy, and I wanted to tell 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.360 you guys, like the differences in modeling are actually beautiful things? 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.040 Are you saying a tomboy? And so I was wondering, 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.160 like in terms of wearing like really feminine clothing like 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.480 on the runway, but I'm wondering how you reconcile or 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:47.160 make like, you know, a dress look beautiful. 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:49.280 I take it as that's a piece of art that 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.560 I'm going to wear. There's always room for someone who's 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:54.280 going to add flair to fashion. 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.920 Jenny's former struggle is a lot like what I'm going 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.920 through now. This gives me hope that I can get far. 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.360 But even after that visit from Jenny Smezoo and that 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:07.440 pep talk about being yourself, the judges were hard on Kim, 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.600 which might seem odd for a show like A and TM. 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:14.240 When it premiered, it featured two queer men as central 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.640 members of the cast, Mister and Miss J. They later 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.320 added Nole Marin as a judge who was also queer. 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.840 They had several queer guest judges, and Miss J was 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.960 gender fluid before anybody was calling it that. He was 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.400 a runway coach for years and he'd been wearing fabulous 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.960 dresses and heels on the set of ANTM since Cycle Ie. 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.960 One time, Kim actually called out the contradiction of Miss 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:40.160 J being the one to criticize her gender expression. The 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:43.200 girls were asked to do their best signature runway walk 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.760 for Miss Jay. They were at a pool and for 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.760 some reason, Miss J brought all these church lady hats 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:50.520 and told them to make the hats a part of 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:53.920 their walk. When it was Kim's turn, Miss Jay was 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:55.400 already prepared for the worst. 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.400 This to be real special because you I want to 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:03.080 try to put my own personality into it, but also 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:05.440 having a feminine flair, and it's just difficult for me. 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.120 It's it's a bit Marrionette for doctor strings. 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:16.840 Kim's walk was awkward. She had on this afternoon tea outfit, 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.360 but she was also trying to strut like a male model. 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:21.040 The church hat wasn't helping. 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:22.680 Kim has an incredible face. 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:24.560 She should be able to do any really well, but 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:26.800 unfortunately don't have five years. 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.400 I need to somehow bring my masculinity and femininity into 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:30.800 the walk. 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:34.400 I've lost words. 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:36.880 You usually have something to say. 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.120 I am really lost for words. 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.400 If anyone should understand a difference of gender expression, she 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.120 should be the one. I mean, are you kidding. 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.880 There's a lot of queer representation in the fashion industry. 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:52.880 People aren't surprised to see a gay male designer, stylist, 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:57.480 makeup artists, or runway coach, but for models sometimes it's different. 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:01.960 These days, the industry has become more inclusive of different 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.280 gender expression, But in two thousand and five, there was 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:09.840 an idea that female models needed to embody femininity, and 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.520 while A ANDTM embraced queer contestants and judges on the show, 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:17.760 they also upheld the notion that contestants need to conform 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:21.920 to certain gender norms. It's a dynamic room, Longoria saw 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.879 when they competed on cycle sixteen. When they were on 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:29.320 A ANDTM, the show identified them as being polyhamorous, although 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:33.320 at the time they identified as being bisexual. After the show, 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.600 Room came out as non binary. Here they are talking 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:38.399 with Oliver Twigs on his YouTube channel. 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.440 Quite a few have said that they were openly queer 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:42.240 during filming. 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:44.119 Whether I have never made it on the show, it 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.240 was brushed aside. Yeah, definitely. 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:52.359 I mean, especially like in that era of television, like 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:56.040 you were allowed to be queerer gay in a way 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:58.320 that made sense to the people that were going to 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:01.560 be watching it, Like, I'm pretty sure I talked about 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.080 the gender spectrum and feeling like I swung around on 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:05.919 it and stuff. But yes, I agree that they do 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:09.600 tend to hide things that are difficult to understand and 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:10.440 show support for. 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.760 A and TM included queer contestants, but they only showed 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.439 the parts that would fit into a storyline, and it 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.200 needed to be a storyline the show thought their audience 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:26.520 would understand. Some queer contestants say their gender and sexuality 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:30.240 wasn't mentioned at all, while others had their whole storyline 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:34.240 built around it, like Kim on cycle five. Her entire 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:37.320 character arc was about how she was a masculine lesbian 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:41.200 struggling to become feminine enough to model. I don't want 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:44.359 to downplay the decision to cast Kim Stoles on season five. 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:48.159 For A and TM's young, mostly female audience, it was 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.320 pretty cool to see an openly lesbian woman who described 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:55.000 herself as masculine on a modeling competition. For young women 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:58.119 who may have been questioning their own sexuality, Kim was 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:00.960 an example of how to be out and proud. Also, 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.399 Kim was beautiful, so beautiful she was chosen to be 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:08.000 on a modeling competition, which contradicted the idea that so 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:13.560 called masculine lesbians are unattractive. Kim talked about her struggle 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.000 with gender norms and figuring where she fit in. Seeing 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:19.920 that struggle on A ANDTM was huge for a lot 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.520 of queer young people watching at home who may have 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:25.800 been going through the same thing, but they saw that 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:28.840 struggle play out because she was on a reality show 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:33.960 that was pressuring her to be more feminine. Fifteen seasons later, 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:37.720 A ANDTM cast its first openly gay male contestant when 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:40.439 the show went co ed, but according to him, at 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.119 least when it came to gender expression, the show hadn't 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:43.720 learned much. 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:47.960 It's too feminine. If we can tell them the same 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:49.160 thing week off the week. 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:51.719 We'll get into that after the break. 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:59.320 The second that I understood that they were really trying 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:05.280 to centralize my queer identity and really just like diminish 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.520 my whole persda and my whole identity to just one 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:12.240 character trait, and that is my gainness, I definitely took 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:14.440 those cues and I ran with it. 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.720 Corey Wade was a contestant on A and TM cycle 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.399 twenty or two point zero as they were calling it. 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:23.520