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Speaker 1: Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on

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Speaker 1: your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new

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Speaker 1: season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In

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Speaker 1: the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking

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Speaker 1: stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely

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Speaker 1: want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty

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Speaker 1: Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's

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Speaker 1: Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of,

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Speaker 1: and a few you didn't like former A and TM

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Speaker 1: judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly

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Speaker 1: of the long running TV series through the untold stories

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Speaker 1: of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden

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Speaker 1: opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation,

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Speaker 1: shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part

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Speaker 1: docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E Network.

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Speaker 1: Check your local TV provider schedule.

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Speaker 2: This girl is absolutely amazing. She's got to come back

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Speaker 2: for America's Next Top Model. I said this girl, and

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Speaker 2: my staff said, Tira, there's something a little different about

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Speaker 2: that girl? So what's different about that girl?

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and eight, Isis King made America's next

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Speaker 1: top model history.

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Speaker 3: I was born physically male, but mentally everything else I

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Speaker 3: was born female. Some people might say that I'm a transgender.

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Speaker 3: Some people might say transsexual. Personally, I prefer born on

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Speaker 3: the wrong body, meaning I was born physically male on

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Speaker 3: the outside, but everything else about me was female.

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Speaker 1: Isis was the first out trans contestant on A and TM.

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Speaker 1: For a lot of viewers, this was their first time

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Speaker 1: seeing a trans person on a reality show talking so

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Speaker 1: openly about their identity.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about when you knew that you were a

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Speaker 2: girl as long as I can remember.

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Speaker 3: It's not something I've chose.

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Speaker 2: This is who always been.

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Speaker 1: And of course Tyra got real personal, real quick.

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Speaker 4: So let's talk about surgery. Are you stop transgender? Pre opt?

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Speaker 2: And do you want to have the surgery one day?

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Speaker 4: If I could have it.

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Speaker 1: Right now, I would a hell of a story. On

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Speaker 1: cycle ten, the models did a shoot where they were

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Speaker 1: supposed to serve homeless shekh you know, living on the streets,

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Speaker 1: but make it fashion. A and TM used actual people

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Speaker 1: experiencing homelessness. It's extras. In the shoot, Isis was living

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Speaker 1: at the shelter A and TM partnered with you were

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Speaker 1: one of the girls from the shelter who.

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Speaker 3: Participated in our shoot in the background as an extra.

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Speaker 5: Let's face it, there's a reason you're here because you

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Speaker 5: know how to give me katoul and yes, there we go.

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Speaker 4: It blew me away.

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Speaker 1: She's laid better than some of the actual A and

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Speaker 1: TM models. So Tyra cast her on the next season,

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Speaker 1: cycle eleven. You know she loves her at Cinderella Story

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Speaker 1: and from the moment Isis walked on the set, she

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Speaker 1: had to face some evil stepsisters. So Isis. I thought

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Speaker 1: she looked little manly like I have small.

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Speaker 2: Boobs too, but her boobs she has no boots.

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Speaker 1: So I told her to come over here with like,

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Speaker 1: come here, and you know you're part of.

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Speaker 4: The Citty committee.

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Speaker 3: Though y'all want to figure me out, right, y'all want

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Speaker 3: to figure me out.

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Speaker 1: During the audition, Isis was minding her business when a

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Speaker 1: group of girls called her over to ask why her

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Speaker 1: boobs were so small? Way to tap dance around the question.

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Speaker 1: So it's true, is what truck are you?

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Speaker 4: Physically?

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Speaker 3: Without wanting on what.

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Speaker 1: Started out is caddy. Curiosity quickly turned mean, spirited and bigoted.

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Speaker 1: My mind was like, what girl, how'd you Ain't you

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Speaker 1: supposed to be a girl competition?

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Speaker 4: How did you get through the door in up?

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Speaker 6: If I have to get along with Isis, I will,

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Speaker 6: But then again, if it comes between me and my goal,

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Speaker 6: I'll stop.

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Speaker 1: Let man write out of the competition. And this was

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Speaker 1: just during the auditions. Once Isis made it into the house,

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Speaker 1: things got worse. I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 7: It makes me uncomfortable as hell. Olnam brings me out

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Speaker 7: that when she got something else different down there than me.

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Speaker 8: I could think the thing about Isis so is like

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Speaker 8: I was like trying to convince myself I was comfortable

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Speaker 8: like Henney comfort, Henry un comfortable, But really I'm not.

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Speaker 8: Sometimes people have a more view of transition.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like I always felt I'm a.

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Speaker 8: Like time of a small town.

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Speaker 6: Hell yeah, we won't want yoh you Hell yeah, you

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Speaker 6: were growing.

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Speaker 4: That in a small town.

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Speaker 1: You was shot, But not everyone was terrible. There were

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Speaker 1: a few girls who were welcoming and supportive of Isis.

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Speaker 5: Now that person this shot, I mean for this competition

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Speaker 5: is going to be Pasha mad and it is your

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Speaker 5: spirit and how much she wanted to be for Isis

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Speaker 5: to be so brave and so secure with who she

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Speaker 5: is and being able to not let anything bother her,

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Speaker 5: It's very commendable.

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Speaker 1: Isis made a few friends and she found girls she

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Speaker 1: could trust with her most private moments. Isis had just

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Speaker 1: started transitioning before cycle eleven. She was new to taking

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Speaker 1: hormone injections. She didn't want to do it alone, so

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Speaker 1: she asked another contestant, Annalie Tipton, to keep her.

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Speaker 3: Company in not to keep up my transition, I have

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Speaker 3: to hormonal injections. Are you heard of needles? Gnia tell

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Speaker 3: Annalie she's somebody who's really cool. So I saw her

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Speaker 3: and I asked her what. She kind of helped distract

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Speaker 3: me while I'm giving myself the injection.

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Speaker 6: They can make superfaces for you.

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Speaker 9: I'm lucky.

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Speaker 1: I knew I mean chicken impression.

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Speaker 3: She's had me laughing and made it a lot easier

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Speaker 3: for me. Now I'm starting to get like Nausea's Yeah.

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Speaker 8: It's something that means so much to her, and to

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Speaker 8: share that with there was quite a personal moment.

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Speaker 10: I thought.

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Speaker 8: I took it as a huge compliment that you asked

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Speaker 8: me to be there, so thank you.

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Speaker 1: It looked like a sweet moment. Years after A and T,

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Speaker 1: m Annalie came out as non binary. Today they go

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Speaker 1: by Leo, But in two thousand and eight, there was

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Speaker 1: barely any public conversation about trans identity. When there was,

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Speaker 1: trans people were the butt of the joke or met

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Speaker 1: with fear and disdain. Seeing Ices take her hormone injection

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Speaker 1: on camera was groundbreaking. Producers presented isis in a way

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Speaker 1: that humanized her struggle. The audience saw the ridicule she

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Speaker 1: faced from the other girls, and we saw her dedication

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Speaker 1: to transitioning. It sent the message that trans people aren't

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Speaker 1: confused about their gender. They're people who are willing to

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Speaker 1: go to great lengths to affirm their gender. It was

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Speaker 1: a big deal for this to happen on broadcast television,

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Speaker 1: and it's a moment that seared into the memory of

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Speaker 1: a lot of queer people. It might be hard to

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Speaker 1: remember these days, but A and TM was actually a

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Speaker 1: pioneer in queer representation. In two thousand and five, the

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Speaker 1: queer feminist website After Ellen called A and TM the

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Speaker 1: queerest place in prime time. But the problem was those

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Speaker 1: groundbreaking moments often came at the expense of the queer

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Speaker 1: contestants themselves, like that sweet moment where Isis took her

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Speaker 1: hormone shot. She says she didn't want to do it.

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Speaker 1: According to Isis, A and TM producers deceived her into

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Speaker 1: doing it on camera. I want to be on some

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm

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Speaker 1: Bridget Armstrong. America's Next Top Model stands out as a

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Speaker 1: pioneer in LGBTQ representation. But like everything with this show,

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Speaker 1: the way they treated those representatives was complicated, in part

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Speaker 1: because A and TM was always thinking about the story,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily the contestants. The impact of the decision to

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Speaker 1: cast Isis King can't be measured. It was pivotal for

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Speaker 1: so many trans viewers who'd never seen positive portrayals of

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Speaker 1: people like them. Isis was a symbol of what's possible.

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Speaker 1: But behind the scenes, Isis felt like A and TM

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Speaker 1: was trying to make her a spectacle. When A and

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Speaker 1: TM went co ed on cycle twenty, they cast a

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Speaker 1: gender fluid gay man before those terms were even mainstream.

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Speaker 1: He challenged the idea that male models must be overtly

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Speaker 1: masculine and he had to because the judges constantly chastised

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Speaker 1: him for being too feminine. But A and TM is

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Speaker 1: also the show that gave us iconic queer judges Jay

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Speaker 1: Manuel Nole, Marin j Alexander or Miss Jay and later

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Speaker 1: Andre Leon Talley and law Roach. It's a show that

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Speaker 1: featured an openly lesbian contestant on season one and highlighted

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Speaker 1: her loving relationship. It's a show that featured queer and

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Speaker 1: gender fluid contestants from the beginning until the end. So

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Speaker 1: on this episode, we're going to take a look at

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Speaker 1: everything A and TM got right and wrong when it

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Speaker 1: comes to gender and sexual identity. We'll explore had they

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Speaker 1: broke barriers and changed the world while harming the very

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Speaker 1: contestants they were changing the world for.

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Speaker 6: I guys might go to school at Wesleyan University, which

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Speaker 6: is in Connecticut.

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Speaker 1: We're at the Cycle five auditions and a contestant named

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Speaker 1: Kim Stoles just entered the competition. She's rocking a v

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Speaker 1: Nex sweater over a tie and button up shirt, collar popped.

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Speaker 1: Very preppy, very two thousand and five. At this point,

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Speaker 1: you've heard me say this a lot, because we're talking

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Speaker 1: about a modeling show and everyone's pretty, but Kim was

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Speaker 1: gorgeous when it came to her face card. She was

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Speaker 1: a classic beauty, or at least that's what I think

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Speaker 1: white people mean when they say that her mom was

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Speaker 1: a high fashion model in the eighties. That's probably where

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Speaker 1: she got her looks from. Kim had a short, dark

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Speaker 1: brown pixie cut in doe green eyes. Her haircut combined

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Speaker 1: with her cutesy face kind of made her look like

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Speaker 1: a baby doll. But something about Kim made her stand

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Speaker 1: out for the rest of the girls, and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just her beauty.

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Speaker 6: To be honest with you, like, I think I can

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Speaker 6: bring something different to modeling. Can I feel a little

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Speaker 6: bit more of a I don't want to say masculine,

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Speaker 6: but I'm as well not killing luck whatever who I

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Speaker 6: want to be out like I'm gay and I am

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Speaker 6: I'm really proud of it.

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Speaker 2: I think this a certain thing of being proud, Like

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Speaker 2: I'm black and proud, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: But I'm not like walking down the red carpet. I'm

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Speaker 4: not I'm a crowd, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: One thing about Cyra Banks, She's gonna make a moment

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Speaker 1: about herself.

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Speaker 6: I'm certainly not gonna, like, you know, walk down the

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Speaker 6: red car and like try to kiss girls on the way.

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Speaker 4: You know, that's like not what I'm gonna do.

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Speaker 1: Kim wasn't the first contestant who was openly queer on

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Speaker 1: the show. We talked about Ebony Haight from cycle one,

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Speaker 1: Michelle Dayton from cycle four was bisexual, and there are

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Speaker 1: other models who came out after the show. I will

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Speaker 1: say this about A and TM after cycle one, they

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Speaker 1: rarely explored storylines about a contestant's discomfort with another contestant sexuality.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it was a reflection of society's growing acceptance. So

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Speaker 1: unlike Ebony on season one, Kim didn't seem to face

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Speaker 1: any criticism from the other models simply because she was gay.

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Speaker 1: In fact, several of them seemed quite curious. Kim even

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Speaker 1: had a little fleeing in the house with another model,

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Speaker 1: despite Kim having a girlfriend. Are you are you full

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Speaker 1: on lesbian? Are I mean you're not by or I

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Speaker 1: only did girls?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, a lot of these girls I don't know anyone

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Speaker 6: like who is gay, and like it's like kind of

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Speaker 6: exciting for them, But I mean I miss my girlfriend

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Speaker 6: from home, and like I'm in like an open relationship,

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Speaker 6: but I don't plan on acting on that.

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Speaker 1: She definitely acted on it.

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Speaker 4: We're oven right now and she can make out on

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Speaker 4: until she wants.

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Speaker 6: I don't care as long as like chance PUSI get back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was probably ridiculous.

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Speaker 6: Hopefull's ridiculous because'm hit on.

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Speaker 4: That's crazy.

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Speaker 1: I'll hang out with you, Kim.

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Speaker 9: Whatever.

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Speaker 1: Kim identified as a lesbian, but she was still figuring

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Speaker 1: out her gender expression. This was two thousand and five,

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Speaker 1: before terms like non binary or gender fluid were widely accepted.

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Speaker 1: With the judges, it wasn't Kim's sexuality they focused on.

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Speaker 1: It was what they saw as her lack of femininity.

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Speaker 1: On the first run way of the season, the models

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Speaker 1: had to do their own makeup. Kim had never worn makeup.

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Speaker 1: The models wore cocktail dresses and heels and had to

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Speaker 1: walk down this oddly shaped runway. It was meant to

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Speaker 1: be confusing, and let's just say a lot of the

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Speaker 1: walks were not good, including Kim's. Here's what the judges

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Speaker 1: told her.

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Speaker 2: Next, we have Kim, Oh no, oh, what was the neck?

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Speaker 6: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: You're trying to be something that you're not. You're trying

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Speaker 2: to be so sexy and so girly and you look

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Speaker 2: like a Manda dress girl. You just need to go

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Speaker 2: with your strong masculinity.

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Speaker 4: That's what brought you here.

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Speaker 1: They put Kim in a cocktail dress, heels and makeup

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Speaker 1: and then chastise her for trying to be girly. But fine.

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Speaker 1: It was the first episode and at least Tyra encouraged

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Speaker 1: him to embrace her androgyny to be herself, but that

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Speaker 1: encouragement did not last long. Kim got a lot of

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Speaker 1: mixed messages from the panel. When she tried to be herself,

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Speaker 1: she was told she was too masculine. When she pushed

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Speaker 1: herself to be more fit, the judges seemed surprised and delighted.

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Speaker 2: Your film shocked the hell out of me. This is

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Speaker 2: so like beyond feminine. It was amazing. If you just

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Speaker 2: showed me that, I wouldn't have known that was Kim.

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Speaker 4: She has a ketcher smith.

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Speaker 2: Look at those palls.

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Speaker 1: One time, Nigel Barker even made a joke out of

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Speaker 1: calling her Tim instead of Kim.

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Speaker 4: I would never believe it's the same person, and I.

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Speaker 1: Think this is a turning point for Tim. Tim.

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Speaker 7: You sure did I saw that.

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Speaker 2: Tim by day, Tim by night, I actually think she's hot, hot, hot,

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Speaker 2: hot hot, which means I'm getting in touch with my

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Speaker 2: androgynous feminine side.

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Speaker 4: Maybe I'm not really sure.

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Speaker 1: Kim got a lot of contradicting messages from the judges

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Speaker 1: when it came to her a gender expression.

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Speaker 2: Kim, you learned how did do all that feminine stuff?

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Speaker 2: But today I asked for a signature walk, Kim, I

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Speaker 2: asked for you today.

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Speaker 6: I'm constantly trying to figure out what my gender is.

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Speaker 6: That's hard in life, in this competition, every day, all

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Speaker 6: the time.

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Speaker 2: I suggest that you get some male fashion magazines, because

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Speaker 2: when men model, they're slightly feminine, right. You can learn

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Speaker 2: from looking at that as well as female magazines.

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Speaker 1: A PM did bring supermodel Jenny Smith to the house

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Speaker 1: to talk to the girls. Jenny was queer and gender

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Speaker 1: non conforming. She talked to the models about finding their

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Speaker 1: own lane in fashion.

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Speaker 11: My big story is that a minority. I am five

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Speaker 11: foot seven, I have a lot of tattoos and a

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Speaker 11: game model.

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Speaker 1: Kim theemed especially inspired.

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Speaker 6: It's really an important thing for me to see not

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Speaker 6: conforming too, just a generalized kind of woman.

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Speaker 11: I've always been a tomboy, and I wanted to tell

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Speaker 11: you guys, like the differences in modeling are actually beautiful things?

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Speaker 6: Are you saying a tomboy? And so I was wondering,

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Speaker 6: like in terms of wearing like really feminine clothing like

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Speaker 6: on the runway, but I'm wondering how you reconcile or

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Speaker 6: make like, you know, a dress look beautiful.

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Speaker 11: I take it as that's a piece of art that

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Speaker 11: I'm going to wear. There's always room for someone who's

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Speaker 11: going to add flair to fashion.

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Speaker 6: Jenny's former struggle is a lot like what I'm going

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Speaker 6: through now. This gives me hope that I can get far.

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Speaker 1: But even after that visit from Jenny Smezoo and that

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Speaker 1: pep talk about being yourself, the judges were hard on Kim,

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Speaker 1: which might seem odd for a show like A and TM.

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Speaker 1: When it premiered, it featured two queer men as central

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Speaker 1: members of the cast, Mister and Miss J. They later

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Speaker 1: added Nole Marin as a judge who was also queer.

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Speaker 1: They had several queer guest judges, and Miss J was

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Speaker 1: gender fluid before anybody was calling it that. He was

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Speaker 1: a runway coach for years and he'd been wearing fabulous

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Speaker 1: dresses and heels on the set of ANTM since Cycle Ie.

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Speaker 1: One time, Kim actually called out the contradiction of Miss

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Speaker 1: J being the one to criticize her gender expression. The

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Speaker 1: girls were asked to do their best signature runway walk

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Speaker 1: for Miss Jay. They were at a pool and for

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Speaker 1: some reason, Miss J brought all these church lady hats

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Speaker 1: and told them to make the hats a part of

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Speaker 1: their walk. When it was Kim's turn, Miss Jay was

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Speaker 1: already prepared for the worst.

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Speaker 6: This to be real special because you I want to

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Speaker 6: try to put my own personality into it, but also

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Speaker 6: having a feminine flair, and it's just difficult for me.

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Speaker 4: It's it's a bit Marrionette for doctor strings.

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Speaker 1: Kim's walk was awkward. She had on this afternoon tea outfit,

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Speaker 1: but she was also trying to strut like a male model.

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Speaker 1: The church hat wasn't helping.

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Speaker 4: Kim has an incredible face.

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Speaker 2: She should be able to do any really well, but

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Speaker 2: unfortunately don't have five years.

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Speaker 6: I need to somehow bring my masculinity and femininity into

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Speaker 6: the walk.

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Speaker 9: I've lost words.

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Speaker 3: You usually have something to say.

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Speaker 4: I am really lost for words.

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Speaker 6: If anyone should understand a difference of gender expression, she

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Speaker 6: should be the one. I mean, are you kidding.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of queer representation in the fashion industry.

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Speaker 1: People aren't surprised to see a gay male designer, stylist,

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Speaker 1: makeup artists, or runway coach, but for models sometimes it's different.

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Speaker 1: These days, the industry has become more inclusive of different

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Speaker 1: gender expression, But in two thousand and five, there was

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Speaker 1: an idea that female models needed to embody femininity, and

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Speaker 1: while A ANDTM embraced queer contestants and judges on the show,

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Speaker 1: they also upheld the notion that contestants need to conform

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Speaker 1: to certain gender norms. It's a dynamic room, Longoria saw

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Speaker 1: when they competed on cycle sixteen. When they were on

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Speaker 1: A ANDTM, the show identified them as being polyhamorous, although

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Speaker 1: at the time they identified as being bisexual. After the show,

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Speaker 1: Room came out as non binary. Here they are talking

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Speaker 1: with Oliver Twigs on his YouTube channel.

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Speaker 7: Quite a few have said that they were openly queer

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Speaker 7: during filming.

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Speaker 4: Whether I have never made it on the show, it

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Speaker 4: was brushed aside. Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 7: I mean, especially like in that era of television, like

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Speaker 7: you were allowed to be queerer gay in a way

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Speaker 7: that made sense to the people that were going to

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Speaker 7: be watching it, Like, I'm pretty sure I talked about

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Speaker 7: the gender spectrum and feeling like I swung around on

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Speaker 7: it and stuff. But yes, I agree that they do

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Speaker 7: tend to hide things that are difficult to understand and

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Speaker 7: show support for.

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Speaker 1: A and TM included queer contestants, but they only showed

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Speaker 1: the parts that would fit into a storyline, and it

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Speaker 1: needed to be a storyline the show thought their audience

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Speaker 1: would understand. Some queer contestants say their gender and sexuality

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Speaker 1: wasn't mentioned at all, while others had their whole storyline

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Speaker 1: built around it, like Kim on cycle five. Her entire

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Speaker 1: character arc was about how she was a masculine lesbian

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Speaker 1: struggling to become feminine enough to model. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to downplay the decision to cast Kim Stoles on season five.

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Speaker 1: For A and TM's young, mostly female audience, it was

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Speaker 1: pretty cool to see an openly lesbian woman who described

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Speaker 1: herself as masculine on a modeling competition. For young women

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Speaker 1: who may have been questioning their own sexuality, Kim was

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Speaker 1: an example of how to be out and proud. Also,

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Speaker 1: Kim was beautiful, so beautiful she was chosen to be

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Speaker 1: on a modeling competition, which contradicted the idea that so

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Speaker 1: called masculine lesbians are unattractive. Kim talked about her struggle

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Speaker 1: with gender norms and figuring where she fit in. Seeing

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Speaker 1: that struggle on A ANDTM was huge for a lot

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Speaker 1: of queer young people watching at home who may have

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Speaker 1: been going through the same thing, but they saw that

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Speaker 1: struggle play out because she was on a reality show

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Speaker 1: that was pressuring her to be more feminine. Fifteen seasons later,

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Speaker 1: A ANDTM cast its first openly gay male contestant when

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Speaker 1: the show went co ed, but according to him, at

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Speaker 1: least when it came to gender expression, the show hadn't

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Speaker 1: learned much.

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Speaker 4: It's too feminine. If we can tell them the same

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Speaker 4: thing week off the week.

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Speaker 1: We'll get into that after the break.

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Speaker 9: The second that I understood that they were really trying

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Speaker 9: to centralize my queer identity and really just like diminish

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Speaker 9: my whole persda and my whole identity to just one

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Speaker 9: character trait, and that is my gainness, I definitely took

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Speaker 9: those cues and I ran with it.

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Speaker 1: Corey Wade was a contestant on A and TM cycle

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Speaker 1: twenty or two point zero as they were calling it.

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Speaker 1: It was the first guy girl season. A and TM

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Speaker 1: did three co ed cycles. Corey was the first openly

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Speaker 1: gay man on A and TM. His presence on the

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Speaker 1: show was an opportunity to explore a new trope. Corey

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Speaker 1: was there token gay guy. He figured out what the

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Speaker 1: show wanted from him during the auditions, and he decided

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Speaker 1: to go along with it.

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Speaker 9: These men are nothing but eye candy to me. It's

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Speaker 9: psychological warfare. Honey, comin in this key, Honey, anything you'll

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00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:57,520
Speaker 9: do boob, do it with confidence. I definitely took it,

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Speaker 9: and I ran with it.

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Speaker 4: I'm not gonna say it didn't hurt.

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Speaker 1: Corey is probably the most clear eyed contestant I spoke with,

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Speaker 1: maybe because he was on a later season. It was

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Speaker 1: twenty thirteen and A ANDTM had been running for ten

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Speaker 1: years at this point. He told me he had no

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Speaker 1: illusions about how reality TV works. He didn't think ANTM

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Speaker 1: was going to make him a top model. He auditioned

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Speaker 1: for the show because he wanted exposure. Corey wanted to

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Speaker 1: be a star.

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Speaker 9: If I look back to twenty two year old Corey

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Speaker 9: auditioning for America's sextup Model. My mission at that point

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Speaker 9: in time, it was very like vapid and hollow. I

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Speaker 9: just wanted to be famous, Like I didn't care how.

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Speaker 9: I just wanted to do it. Did I think that

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Speaker 9: this was going to like make me into a supermodel

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Speaker 9: like Bella and Gigi Hedeed's status.

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Speaker 4: No, I don't think I was ever.

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Speaker 9: Delusional about that, to be honest with you. But I

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Speaker 9: did know that it was going to get my name

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Speaker 9: out there. I did know that I was in pursuit

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Speaker 9: of a career in entertainment.

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Speaker 1: At the time, Corey was a musical theater actor performing

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Speaker 1: in regional plays. He thought getting on A and TM

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00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,479
Speaker 1: would help his entertainment career. Plus, he'd been a huge

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00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:10,919
Speaker 1: Top Model fan growing.

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Speaker 9: Up when I was in middle school. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 9: that was like my world. I loved America's Next Hout Model.

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00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 9: I was obsessed like doing like after school hangouts with

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Speaker 9: girlfriends and like perching around the TV and getting ready

441
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 9: for the next episode.

442
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 4: That was my life.

443
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 1: He idolized Tyra. In fact, when Corey was bullied in

444
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: high school, the other kids called him Tyra is in

445
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: Tyra Banks, and it wasn't a compliment, but he took

446
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: it as one.

447
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 4: Tira.

448
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 9: You know, growing up, I was kind of like obsessed

449
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 9: with her and her talk show and just enamored by

450
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,400
Speaker 9: her career trajectory and just everything that she stood for

451
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 9: promoting body positivity, having opened the LGBTQI plus people on

452
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 9: her talk show and not in a way that was

453
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 9: kind of like demeaning.

454
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 1: I know I've taken some shots at Tyra's talk show

455
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 1: on this podcast, but Corey's right us was the time

456
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 1: when talk shows were still doing surprise I'm really a

457
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 1: man dating reveal segments. So in comparison, both Tyro's talk

458
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 1: show and A and TM were progressive.

459
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 9: She would uplift them and hear their stories and advocate

460
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 9: for them at a time where that wasn't really popular.

461
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 1: Corey also admired the queer representation he saw on A

462
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 1: and TM. It had been pivotal for him as a

463
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 1: queer teenager.

464
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 9: I look back at Isis specifically, and I see this

465
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 9: like warrior of Truth. And she went back and did

466
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 9: the All Star cycle and slayd that as well. And

467
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 9: then you look at representatives like on the judges panel,

468
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 9: like Miss Jay Alexander, who is just this like godess

469
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 9: and just like who like free expression, but you can't

470
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 9: tell me nothing queer off the beaten path, visibly queer,

471
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 9: but you can't tell me not.

472
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 1: Then by the time Corey auditioned for A and TM

473
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 1: Jay Manuel and Miss j Alexander have been replaced. There

474
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 1: was an entirely new panel of judges. Corey was disappointed.

475
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,880
Speaker 1: He was looking forward to meeting the queer icon Miss Jay.

476
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: He felt Miss Jay would get him.

477
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 4: I wanted mister Alexander to be on my judges panel.

478
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 4: I was missing that slambuoyant just like ooh real, raw,

479
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 4: unapologetic gay personality just there. I missed it and I

480
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 4: didn't get it. And they tried to like.

481
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 9: Half ass a version of that by having Brian Boy

482
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 9: on our show.

483
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: But he tried not to let that get him down.

484
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: He was going to be on a show that he

485
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,120
Speaker 1: loved as a kid, a show that cast isis King

486
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: and Miss j. Corey went in expecting his queerness to

487
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: be celebrated or the very least accepted, so he was

488
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: caught off guard at the first judging panel of the season.

489
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 9: They were like, oh my gosh, you look very very

490
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 9: feminine in this photo. Come to think that you present

491
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 9: very feminine, and you know what, you dressed very feminine.

492
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 9: You talk very feminine, femininely, like everything is feminine.

493
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: The first photo shoot of the season was a wedding shoe.

494
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 1: Corey was posing as the groom alongside one of the

495
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 1: female models, Smoke.

496
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 9: When I found out I was paired with Corey away

497
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 9: scared because the most challenging part is going to be,

498
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 9: like Corey being masculine.

499
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: I just want to point out in this shoe there

500
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: was a gay wedding, a lesbian wedding, a polygamy wedding,

501
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: and one guy married a remote control so gender roles

502
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,199
Speaker 1: didn't seem that critical to the shoe. But here's the

503
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 1: feedback Corey got from one of the judges.

504
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 4: Corey, were you playing a guy or a woman in

505
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 4: the shot? I was playing a guy.

506
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 9: Okay, you're gonna have to work your stray guy a

507
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 9: little more.

508
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 1: I agree with Kelly, You're not selling a complete palostomin

509
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: in this filer.

510
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 9: I think this picture of you is absolutely beautiful.

511
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 2: I don't see an epic fail smizing you're piercing the camera.

512
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: That was Tyra. You heard at the end, and I

513
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: will say by the time Corey competed on the show,

514
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 1: Tyra seemed a bit more evolved. She for Corey in

515
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: his femininity a lot on this season. One of the

516
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: newer judges brought in for the co ed season was

517
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 1: a straight male model named Rob Evans. Rob was rumored

518
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 1: to be dating Tyra at this time, and when it

519
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: came to Corey, he completely disagreed with his alleged lover.

520
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: I don't particularly like this far that much.

521
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 4: Was it's too feminine. We can tell him the same

522
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 4: thing week after weekend. He just gets.

523
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 1: Brainwashed by YouTube every single time.

524
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,719
Speaker 4: Brain washed. If he come into a place like presenting

525
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 4: yourself the way you do, they will think you're the makeupart.

526
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: Tyra and Kelly Catron, the other female judge on this season,

527
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 1: didn't back down from Rob, and neither did Corey defends

528
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: on the ground.

529
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 4: I'm coming at you as a male model. I hear

530
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 4: right now this Can I speak of this?

531
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 3: Actually?

532
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 4: Please go on?

533
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 9: I really really love to work by androgeny. When my

534
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 9: passion for modeling, you know, developed, and when it actually sparked,

535
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 9: it's when I started seeing pictures of people you know

536
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 9: who were more androgens, and in the past few years

537
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 9: more of that has been coming out to the forefront.

538
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: What's Gonna Happeny gave a heartfelt explanation that should have

539
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 1: taken the attention off his so called lack of masculinity,

540
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: but instead it made Rob Evans focus on it more.

541
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: For Rob, the barometer for how well Corey performed in

542
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: a runway or photoshoot was how masculine he could be.

543
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 4: Choreer, I like this shot of you. It's very dude.

544
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: If I didn't know any better, you pull off and

545
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: do to me and good job, Manam.

546
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 4: Bronie is a dude? You look like a man?

547
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 3: What should I say?

548
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 2: No?

549
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 4: He is a man? Okay?

550
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 1: I think you look straight in this? Yikes? Is that

551
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: meant to be a compliment? Corey? The thing about you

552
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: always know how to sell what you were, and I

553
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: don't you have to tell you look.

554
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 9: More money more. It's just that's what you're delivering. Good job.

555
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: But it wasn't just Rob. Corey also got it from photographers.

556
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 4: Oh Corey, that's this gay halls.

557
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 5: Corey moves in quite a feminine way, and as a

558
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 5: male model, you really have to appeal to men.

559
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 9: Change.

560
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 3: You gotta have a broad range.

561
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 4: Hit it nice and strong, make it beautiful. Show me

562
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 4: if your eyes can't see your eyes that job.

563
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: Corey, that's masculine.

564
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 3: Your body looks great.

565
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 4: That god he does it look too girly though, No,

566
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 4: that does feel Gurley. I don't want you to look girly.

567
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 4: I want you to look like a man.

568
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: Mind you. The last bit of tape you heard was

569
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: from a photo shoot where Corey was supposed to be

570
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: channeling Tyra's fierceness. He had photos of Tyra printed on

571
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: his nails. Corey told me, even though he peeped that

572
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: the show was going to make him their token gay guy,

573
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: he didn't think he was going to be criticized for

574
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: not being masculine enough. Historically, the industry is more inclusive

575
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: of queer men, and that might have to do with

576
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: the fact that the fashion world is pretty much run

577
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: by gay men. So Cory told me he was blindsided

578
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,479
Speaker 1: by the feedback he got on A and TM and

579
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: he didn't agree with it.

580
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 9: You're sol feminine like. They just wouldn't stop with that.

581
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 9: They were like, if you want to be a male model,

582
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 9: you need to man up. Mascot like do all this bullshit. Okay,

583
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 9: truthfully didn't know that that was coming.

584
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: Corey expected more from A and TM.

585
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 4: I'm not going to say it didn't hurt.

586
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 9: I'm not going to say my emotions weren't real, okay,

587
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 9: because they were. I was at the time going through

588
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 9: an entire identity crisis.

589
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: Today, Corey identifies as non binary and uses he and

590
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: day pronouns. Back in twenty thirteen, when he was taping

591
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: A and TM, he identified as a gay man.

592
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 9: You know, I knew that I was gay, but words

593
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 9: like non binary and gender queer they didn't really exist

594
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 9: at the.

595
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 4: Time, and I was kind of like feeling.

596
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 9: In an other space in terms of like just my

597
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 9: gender identity and being on a season of America's Next

598
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 9: Up Model where gender is such a huge theme. Yeah,

599
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 9: that definitely preyed on my emotional state, my mental state.

600
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 4: It felt like my identity was being pried open.

601
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: He went on that show to be famous, but being

602
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: on ANTM wasn't awakening for Corey.

603
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 4: That's a fight or flight moment.

604
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 9: When you're on a judges panel and you're being told

605
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 9: you're too gay, that's a fighter flight moment. And I

606
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 9: think most people just want to shrink from that moment

607
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 9: and like disappear in a puff of smoke, but he didn't.

608
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: He pushed back when Rob Evans told him he was

609
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: too feminine, and he continued to serve androgyny and femininity

610
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: in the competition. He was the second runner up on

611
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: his season.

612
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 9: I'm proud to have been able to stand ten toes

613
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 9: down and like have those conversations. I was prompted to

614
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 9: just like meet that moment, and that you know, that

615
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 9: was the production team at whoever was pulling the strings

616
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 9: behind the seeds who put me in that position, and

617
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 9: the judges for saying all of the stupid things they

618
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 9: said about my femininity about being queer. That really teed

619
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 9: up just like a beautiful educational moment. And people got

620
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 9: mad online too, and people were like, wait a minute, No,

621
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 9: you shouldn't be criticizing him this way for these things,

622
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 9: like he's a model, you're not going to be able

623
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 9: to understand anything about his sexual orientation through a photograph.

624
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: Corey told me in a weird way, he's grateful to

625
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: A and TM. The show didn't make him a superstar,

626
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: but it did help him find his purpose.

627
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 9: I was twenty two when we were filming that, like,

628
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 9: my frontal cortex wasn't even fully developed, and there I

629
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 9: was in the center of such an important conversation. At

630
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 9: the time, I didn't know how big and important that was.

631
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 9: This was twenty thirteen when my cycle of America's Next

632
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 9: Up Model aired.

633
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 4: We didn't even have marriage equality.

634
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 9: I was sparking so many conversations around the world about

635
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 9: queer identity, lgbtqiplus inclusivity. It was such a huge and

636
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 9: impactful thing that was bigger than me, and it wasn't

637
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 9: even what I was there for, but that was the

638
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 9: thing that made it make sense for me, and I

639
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 9: think that's what allowed me to come across as such

640
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 9: like a strong person on the show. I really am

641
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 9: proud of how I came across on the show. If

642
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 9: anybody remembers, I was pretty pretty fierce.

643
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: These days, Corey is an LGBTQ advocate and educator.

644
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 9: This passion of mine to educate in this way was

645
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 9: born out of the first time I ever had to

646
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 9: publicly stand up for myself and speak truth to my

647
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 9: experience as an LGBTQI plus person while being criticized for

648
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 9: my queer identity on America's sexonth model.

649
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: After A and TM, Corey says he kept in contact

650
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: with Tyra. She's actually recommended him for a few jobs.

651
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: He told me he'll always have respect for her and

652
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: the way she advocated for him on Cycle twenty. But

653
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: Corey thinks the choice of focus on his sexuality and

654
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: gender expression was a missed opportunity for A and TM

655
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: to do something transformative.

656
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 9: As viewers of these shows, our ideology is being shaped

657
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 9: by what we see, even if it's on a subliminal level,

658
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 9: even if we don't realize it.

659
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 4: You have so much power when you have a show

660
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 4: like that.

661
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: Corey wishes A and TM treated his queerness like it

662
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,239
Speaker 1: was just another thing about him, instead of making it

663
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: his entire storyline. He thanks doing this could have normalized

664
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: homosexuality for a lot of viewers.

665
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 9: That would have been so daring just to treat it

666
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 9: like it was nothing. Maybe then people watching would have

667
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 9: had less of like a oh, like such a tense.

668
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 9: It's feeling around the idea that somebody loves differently expresses differently.

669
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: After the break, we're going to talk about Ices King.

670
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: For millions of Americans, she was probably the first trans

671
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: woman they'd ever seen. On televison, but behind the scenes

672
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: she was being treated like a spectacle. Isis King's inclusion

673
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 1: on A and TM cycle eleven not only sparked a

674
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: huge conversation among the models on her season, it sparked

675
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: a huge conversation in America. Harris Tyra introducing Isis on

676
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:22,479
Speaker 1: her talk show.

677
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 2: Never in the history of America's Next Top Model has

678
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 2: there ever been a finalist who was so controversial, so

679
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: talked about, and so blogged about. If you google her

680
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 2: name and top Model together, you get more than four

681
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 2: hundred thousand search results, almost half a million search results.

682
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 2: I think you guys know who I'm talking about.

683
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 4: Isis?

684
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: Check her out. Is The fifth presence on ANTM was polarizing.

685
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: There were a lot of people who didn't think she

686
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: belonged on the show, and they were pretty nasty about it.

687
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 1: Here's a Fox News segment about Isis.

688
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 2: She wants to be America's next Top one model, but

689
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 2: there's a hitch on this one that she actually used

690
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 2: to be he and I think still is.

691
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 4: She tells or he tells us magazine.

692
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 10: That she identifies herself as a woman born physically male.

693
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 2: She's told you, guys, now my cards were dealt differently.

694
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: Boy, that's an understatement. Fox later apologized after Glad reached

695
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: out and told them it was offensive, but that transphobic

696
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: attitude was reflected in the Model House. Sharon Brown, who

697
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: you heard from a few episodes ago, was on Cycle

698
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: eleven with Isis. She's the model who was sent home

699
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: in the first elimination after bullying Isis. Sharon told me

700
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 1: the bullying we saw her do was a bit of

701
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: a setup by the producers, but after Sharon left, things

702
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: got uglier and much more pointed.

703
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 8: I generally wouldn't hang out with characters like Alina Orshina

704
00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 8: or Isis because she's a transgender.

705
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 9: Cannot push Isis, and I wasn't appreciated.

706
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: On Cycle eleven. There were a few small town Southern

707
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: contestants who were uncomfortable with Isis being in the competition,

708
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: and they would say really nasty and even violent things

709
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:14,439
Speaker 1: about Isis behind her back.

710
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 8: Sometimes people have a more view of trensition.

711
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, like I almost felt, well.

712
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 8: I'm a like time of a small town.

713
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, we will yeah, hell yeah, you.

714
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 4: Were growing that in a small town.

715
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 1: You were shot.

716
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 2: I feel like I do very well in the real

717
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 2: world of modeling.

718
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: I just don't see iss being booked because of the

719
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: way her body is mount still very manly, like the

720
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: hand and the feet and the waste.

721
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 6: I think it's about time for Isis to go home

722
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 6: while it's just not for her.

723
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: While those girls were whispering about Isis, she was in

724
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: another room talking with other contestants about the way she

725
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: was being treated.

726
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 3: A lot of women, I found are intimidated.

727
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 4: Because you do girls better than most girls.

728
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I'm slightful by myself.

729
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 5: I don't try and think about whether I think it's

730
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 5: right or wrong what you're doing, because it's not my

731
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 5: choice to make for you.

732
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 4: Isis Is always.

733
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 7: Gonna have people talking about her, and she needs to just,

734
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 7: you know, keep strong.

735
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 3: Whatever I think, whatever you want, But when I'm full on,

736
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 3: when I'm on that wrong way, what do you want

737
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 3: to task? You can't tell me, not fast.

738
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,919
Speaker 1: I'm here for the long run and you're one.

739
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 10: Of us, Iszis.

740
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: This was Isis's running storyline. A girl or group of

741
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: girls were mean and hateful to her. Isis stood up

742
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: to her bullies, rolls above it, and moved on to

743
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,479
Speaker 1: the next round until she was eliminated on episode five.

744
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: In later interviews, Isis said the bullying and bigotry she

745
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: faced on A and TM was about the same as

746
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: what she experienced in the real world at that time.

747
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: Outside of having to defend herself against a house full

748
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,439
Speaker 1: of bigots over and over, Isis got a pretty good

749
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 1: at it. She was an underdog who proved her bullies wrong.

750
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: But what we didn't see was how the production team

751
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: put Isis's boundaries and set her up. Remember that cute

752
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: scene where she took her hormone shot while another contestant

753
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 1: helped distract her.

754
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 3: She's somebody who's really cool. So I saw her and

755
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 3: I asked her, would she kind of helped distract me

756
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,240
Speaker 3: while I'm giving myself the injection.

757
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 8: It's something that means so much to her, and to

758
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 8: share that with her was quite a personal moment.

759
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 10: I thought.

760
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: I took it as a huge compliment that you asked

761
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: me to be there, so thank you. In the past

762
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: few years, Isis opened up about the real story behind

763
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: this trailblazing moment. She says production manipulated her. Here she

764
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: is talking to J Manual in his j Chat series.

765
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 3: At the time, I was taking hormone injections. But right

766
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 3: before I left to do the show, I had to

767
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 3: give myself a hormone shot. I saw blood and I fainted.

768
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 3: So two weeks later, when I had to do my

769
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 3: next shot, I fainted again.

770
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 10: So I was in a.

771
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 3: Process of figuring out how to switch from shots to

772
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 3: pills because I just couldn't handle it when I went on.

773
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 3: So when I went on the show, I knew that

774
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 3: it's a chance I could faint, and I was still

775
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 3: so new to transitioning. I didn't want to do that

776
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 3: on camera. So I asked them, Hey, when we do

777
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 3: our next photoshoot, can the medic administer my.

778
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: Shot because we have medics on set.

779
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I said, of course, of course photoshoot came around.

780
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 3: Oh no, the medic can't do it today, I said.

781
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: Said the next day, when they were shooting, she was

782
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: told the same thing, the medic couldn't do it. She says.

783
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: This went on for days. I said started to get worried.

784
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: She was new to transitioning and didn't know what would

785
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 1: happen if she missed her hormone shot. She said. After

786
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: a few days, she got a call on the production phone,

787
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: that's the house phone. The producers use when they want

788
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: to relay a message to the contestants off camera.

789
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 3: They call up, Hey, so the medic won't be able

790
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 3: to do your shot. And I was like, what do

791
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 3: you mean the medic can't do my shot? Like a

792
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 3: week ago, there was gonna do my shot, like I

793
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 3: need to do it. They said, yeah, you have to

794
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 3: do your shot. Bring one of the girls to be

795
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 3: in there with you so you don't think And I

796
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 3: was just like, wow, see, I did not know that.

797
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: You have never told me that ANTIM had a rule

798
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: about filming. If more than one girl was in the

799
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: shower or bathroom at the same time, the camera was

800
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 1: allowed to be in there too. The producers could have

801
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,760
Speaker 1: stayed with Isis while she took her shot off camera

802
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: to make sure she didn't pass out and to call

803
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: the medic if she did, but instead they told her

804
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 1: to take another contestant with her to the bathroom.

805
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 3: So I honestly didn't want to do it on camera,

806
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 3: one because I was scared I was gonna faint, and

807
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 3: then two, I just don't want to do it on

808
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 3: a fucking camera. Me being trans in itself, that's enough

809
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 3: of an impact. I don't need to do a homeom

810
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 3: shot on camera.

811
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: I did not know the level of manipulation.

812
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 8: Am I gonna say it surprises me?

813
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 6: No?

814
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: Uh that I will say there was a lot of that.

815
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: Maybe Tyra and Ken Mock thought having this moment would

816
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: be groundbreaking and powerful. According to j Manguele, they fought

817
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 1: for it to air. I have to give props to

818
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: Tyra ken Mock, the producers. They really fought for this

819
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: moment with the network. Maybe Tyra and Ken knew it

820
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: would make great TV, get people talking, and bring in

821
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: a lot of viewers, and they were right. But telling

822
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: Isis she could have the medic administer her hormone shot

823
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: and then pulling the rug from under her at the

824
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: last moment was wrong. If they wanted to make this

825
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: a part of her storyline, she should have been the

826
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: first person to sign off on it, not to mention

827
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: it put her health at risk. Isis fainted at the

828
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: sight of blood, and she'd already passed out twice trying

829
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,399
Speaker 1: to self administer her hormone shot. Antium turned what should

830
00:41:54,400 --> 00:42:00,439
Speaker 1: have been a private moment into ratings fodder. It wasn't

831
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: the last time they tried to turn her experience into

832
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 1: a spectacle. Isis said during her season, the producers removed

833
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: the door from the bathroom and replaced it with a curtain.

834
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: Iis doesn't know if they did it because of her

835
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: or two of the other models who would sneak in

836
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: the bathroom and have off camera conversations, but either way

837
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 1: it made Iceis extremely uncomfortable. Here she is talking to

838
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: Oliver Twist about it on his YouTube channel.

839
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 3: So at one point they took the doors off the

840
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 3: bathrooms and it was just like a little curtain air

841
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 3: but when you walk by, it blows, and I was

842
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 3: just like, okay, I have these a bathroom. At the time,

843
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 3: I was just learning how to like take myself and

844
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 3: I was just learning these things, and I was just like,

845
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 3: I was like, why would they do that? Like when

846
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 3: you walk by, it breathed, you know, the breeze make

847
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:50,959
Speaker 3: the curtain move, and I'm just like, somebody could easy.

848
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 3: You can't not like you can open the curtain and

849
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 3: see me using a bathroom or be taking a shower.

850
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 3: The showers are clear glass, and in my head, like

851
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 3: that was one of the most terrifying things. You know,

852
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 3: I wasn't I didn't have a connection with my body

853
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 3: in that sense, So I didn't want anybody to see me,

854
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 3: and I was just like, I'm going to have a moment.

855
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: By moment, Isis means she was afraid her body would

856
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: be exposed on camera. Remember, part of the contract, producers

857
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: could use footage of contestants clothed or naked, whether they

858
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: knew they were being taped or not. So Isis got

859
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 1: really conscious of when and where she would get dressed.

860
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 3: So usually try to shower or do stuff at certain times,

861
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,240
Speaker 3: or if I know I was going to do something

862
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 3: like outside the show, I was just like, let me

863
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 3: wait until the girls are loading up, because I just

864
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 3: don't want to have a moment where I'm trying to

865
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 3: do something to make myself feel comfortable and somebody walk in.

866
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 3: So I really hated that they took the doors off,

867
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 3: and they worded it like it was because the girls

868
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 3: they were going to shower to talk, because then you know,

869
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 3: and there you couldn't have a mic on. But they

870
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 3: didn't want us to really be around each other without mics.

871
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 3: So when the doors came off, the hinges I would

872
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 3: say that was a moment for me when I was

873
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 3: just like, that's a little weird, especially you know for me,

874
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 3: I don't want a special privilege, but I at least

875
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 3: want some type of privacy. So whenever I even I

876
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 3: took a shower, I would put my towel over the

877
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 3: top of the shower the glass, and I would just

878
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 3: take a shower in that block, so at least as

879
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 3: somebody did walk in, they wouldn't see me. It's like

880
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 3: little things that people didn't think about or wouldn't think about.

881
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: Antium wanted to bring a trans model into the competition.

882
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: They wanted the attention her presence would bring to the show.

883
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 1: They maybe even wanted to spark a conversation and normalize transidentity,

884
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 1: but they didn't facilitate a situation where Isis could feel comfortable.

885
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 1: They prioritized the story and the ratings over the actual person.

886
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 1: After Isis was eliminated, Tyra brought her on her talk

887
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: show to talk about being trans. Isis's mom came with

888
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: her and talked about her own journey to accepting her daughter.

889
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: Tyra even brought one of the bullies you heard in

890
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 1: the tape earlier to have this weird debate. The girl

891
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,720
Speaker 1: was trying to justify her right to disagree with Isis

892
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 1: even existing At the end of the segment, Tyra brought

893
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: out the leading gender affirming surgeon in the country, doctor

894
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 1: Marcy Bowers. The surgeon told Isis she wanted to do

895
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: her gender affirming surgery and she was going to arrange

896
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 1: for it to be paid, so Isis didn't have to

897
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 1: come up with the twenty five to thirty thousand dollars herself.

898
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 4: You have some news for Isis.

899
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 10: What news do you have for Issis?

900
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 4: Well?

901
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 10: I just want to say your story really touches my

902
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 10: heart and I saw you actually first on MSNBC. I think,

903
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 10: isn't it is that right? But I can relate to you,

904
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 10: and I know what difference that surgery can make in

905
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 10: your life and improve things for the better. So what

906
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 10: I want to do is evaluate you for the processes

907
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 10: of going through the surgery, and if I can get

908
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 10: the money together, i'd like you to come out, assuming

909
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 10: you want.

910
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 4: Me to do your surgery.

911
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: I want to do this for you.

912
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 3: What you say, this is not happening.

913
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 2: This is not happening.

914
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 3: How do you feel It doesn't feel like it's like

915
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 3: I'm about to wake up.

916
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm about the wake up. Thank you.

917
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 2: You're welcome.

918
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: For Tyra this was a story that kept on giving.

919
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: After her surgery, Tyra brought Isis, her mother, and the

920
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: surgeon back on her show to talk about the whole process,

921
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: and in my opinion, Tyra and the surgeon got a

922
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 1: little too personal.

923
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 2: Now I know, there's something called dilating that that isis

924
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 2: Is supposed to be doing.

925
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 10: Explained dilating, Well, patients that have gone from male to

926
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 10: female need to keep the vagina open.

927
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: Because Isis's boyfriend Desmond joined them on stage for this segment, So.

928
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,879
Speaker 4: Is she dilating to be able to have sex? Yeah?

929
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 10: What it is to keep the vagina open and to

930
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 10: allow potentially some action.

931
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 2: So Desmond, are you over there going?

932
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 4: Come on, baby? You got to dilate.

933
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 1: There's a weird dynamic that can creep into conversations about

934
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: trans people. I'm talking about the tendency for people to

935
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: ask really invasive personal questions that are frankly, none of

936
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: their business. The questions are usually about sex, bodily functions,

937
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 1: and private body parts, questions people usually shy away from.

938
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,760
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's from genuine curiosity and a desire to understand,

939
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 1: and there are some people who feel like education is

940
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 1: the first step to normalization and acceptance, but a lot

941
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: of times the line of questioning is just voyeuristic. Non

942
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: trans people are obsessed with trans people's bodies. I don't

943
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: know what Tyra was trying to accomplish here. It was

944
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: the twenty tens and conversations like these weren't exactly mainstream.

945
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 1: But there's something about watching these segments today that feels icky,

946
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: like Tyra was trying to make Isis a sideshow act.

947
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: I have a lot of complicated feelings about Isis' time

948
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,359
Speaker 1: on A and TM. I know it was groundbreaking. Way

949
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 1: Tyra and ANTM went about presenting Isis seems wrong. I

950
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 1: also know I have the benefit of thinking about this

951
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: almost twenty years after it aired. Isis talked about this

952
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: dynamic in an interview with Logo.

953
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 3: We look at things in a different lens than now.

954
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 3: So when people say, oh, this shouldn't treated you like that,

955
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 3: it makes me feel some type of way because I

956
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 3: didn't have that support back then. I didn't have people

957
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 3: come into my rescue. I just think that it's really

958
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,959
Speaker 3: easy to point fingers now. I mean, obviously the stuff

959
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 3: was wrong, but we're in a different era and we

960
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 3: were obviously different people we're way more I think as

961
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:43,479
Speaker 3: a as a people way more sensitive to problematic shit.

962
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 3: So it's just hard to look at something back then

963
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 3: because if you didn't say nothing about it back then,

964
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 3: I don't say nothing now because y'all day show wasn't.

965
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 1: Coming to my rescue. I was in this hell.

966
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 3: I love to dress. Nobody didn't come and throw me

967
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 3: no life wrath.

968
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: They let me during. Isis seems to have mixed feelings

969
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 1: about Tyra and A and TM today and the interviews

970
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: you heard earlier, you can tell she was clearly uncomfortable

971
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: with the behind the scenes stunts A ANDTM pulled, but

972
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: she also seems grateful to Tyra and the show for

973
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: the opportunity. I mean Tyra helped her get gender affirming surgery.

974
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: Isis also says the exposure she got from A ANDTM

975
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:26,720
Speaker 1: changed her life.

976
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 3: I would say, out of most of the girls, I

977
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 3: was just like one of the ones that benefited the

978
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:33,439
Speaker 3: most from the show.

979
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,439
Speaker 1: Isis is a queer icon. She's one of the most

980
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 1: famous trans people in America. She's an activist, speaker, and actress.

981
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 1: But being on the show didn't just change her life,

982
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: it changed the lives of so many queer people watching her.

983
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: I'm not exaggerating when I say seeing Isis on TV

984
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,280
Speaker 1: was a lifeline. Multiple viewers have reached out to Isis

985
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: to tell her what her representation on A ANDTM meant

986
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 1: to them.

987
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 3: A month or two after I got eliminated, this young

988
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 3: gay kid sent me a message and said I was

989
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 3: about to commit suicide and seeing your story helped me

990
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 3: realize there was a light at the end of the tunnel,

991
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 3: and I remember crying and being like, oh snop, Like

992
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,280
Speaker 3: this is so much bigger than just my moment.

993
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: And she's still inspiring a new generation of queer viewers

994
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: who are just discovering A and TM. I don't know

995
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 1: if she would have accomplished all this without the show,

996
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: or if her casting would have had such a huge

997
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 1: impact had top model decided to do it later when

998
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,800
Speaker 1: people were more comfortable with trans identity. But being a

999
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: pioneer often comes with a cost. And while I can

1000
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: say A and TM played a pivotal role in changing

1001
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: attitudes towards queer people in pop culture, it seems like

1002
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: the contestants are the ones who bore that cost. They

1003
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: got the hate messages, they had to defend themselves against

1004
00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 1: their castmates. They had to explain their identity to the

1005
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: judges in face criticism for just being them. With all

1006
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 1: that in mind, I asked Corey Wade what he thinks

1007
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 1: A and TM's legacy is when it comes to queer representation.

1008
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 9: I do think they found some really, really amazing queer

1009
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 9: representatives on that show who, just like I believe I did,

1010
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 9: met those moments with grace. I just think we need

1011
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 9: to give Isis her flowers. I'm so grateful that people

1012
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 9: like this exist and have been uplifted to this platform.

1013
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 9: There's a lot of beauty in what America's Next Time

1014
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 9: Model has done.

1015
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 1: For all its failings. In many ways, this was one

1016
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: thing A and TM got right, but for contestants like Corey,

1017
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 1: it's still complicated.

1018
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 4: I feel so many different ways about this.

1019
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 9: I'm proud, but I'm angry, but I understand, but I'm

1020
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 9: angry but I'm grateful.

1021
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: On the next episode, we finally tackle one of America's

1022
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: Next Top models biggest sins. We're going to talk about

1023
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 1: the body shaming and mixed messages about eating disorders that

1024
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: became synonymous with the show.

1025
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,399
Speaker 2: She's huge, She's not going to be a top mom

1026
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 2: My biggest problem is the body shape.

1027
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 6: I thank you.

1028
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 4: I wouldn't want to see her in the swimsuit. You

1029
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 4: gotta work on the side. Her body is just doing.

1030
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 9: What's it's all going, Pasha?

1031
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 2: Is what you're finding?

1032
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1033
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:22,479
Speaker 6: Okay.

1034
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 1: We reached out to Tyra Banks and A and TM

1035
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: executive producer Ken Mock so they could provide more perspective

1036
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 1: on isis King's time on A and TM and Tyra's

1037
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: talk show and what we've discussed on this episode, but

1038
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 1: we did not hear back from them before airing this episode.

1039
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model.

1040
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: We're grateful for your support. We'd love for you to

1041
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 1: really show your support by subscribing to our show on

1042
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 1: Apple podcast. Don't forget to give us a five star review.

1043
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: If you love the show, tell your group, chat your

1044
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 1: friends you to check us out, and if you don't,

1045
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 1: maybe keep that one to yourself. The Curse of America's

1046
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 1: Next Top Model is a production of Glass Podcasts, a

1047
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:14,720
Speaker 1: division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcast.

1048
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 1: The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and

1049
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: singer produced by me Bridget Armstrong. Our story editor is

1050
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning.

1051
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 1: Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin Melcriy, and Curry Richmond.

1052
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: Consulting producers on this podcast are Oliver TwixT and Kate Taylor.

1053
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 1: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio

1054
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: editing on this episode by Matt del Vecchio, Andrew Callaway

1055
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,799
Speaker 1: and Tanner Robbins. The Curse of America's Next Top Model

1056
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: theme was composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by

1057
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 1: my Music Special Thanks to everyone we interviewed, especially the

1058
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 1: former contestants, and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the

1059
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

1060
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: Also check out the Etglass podcast Instagram for Curse of

1061
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 1: America's Next Top Model behind the scenes content.