1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg BusinessWeek with Carol Messer and Tim 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio. 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 2: Well, let's turn to a challenge that's facing every C 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 2: suite executive, not to mention every policymaker, university, dean, teacher, 5 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 2: you name it, who's trying to work at improving diversity 6 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 2: and inclusion in their business school, etc. How do you 7 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: try and bring people up who faced an equality and 8 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,159 Speaker 2: discrimination without simply focusing on the numbers, simply filling in 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 2: the checkboxes. Michelle Lamont, a professor at sociology, a professor 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 2: of sociology at Harvard, tried to answer this question, and 11 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 2: she went out and interviewed over one hundred and eighty 12 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 2: cultural leaders around the country. She wrote about her findings 13 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 2: in the books Seeing Others, how recognition works and how 14 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 2: it can heal a divided world. So, Michelle, you know, 15 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 2: academic inequality. 16 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 3: Is a key piece of the polarization, the cultural polarization 17 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 3: that you describe in your book, But you think it's 18 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 3: a pretty limited way of understanding why some people succeed 19 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 3: why other people lag explain. 20 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,839 Speaker 4: Well, there's several aspects of this question. One of them 21 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 4: is that when large organizations are putting in place a 22 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 4: diversity program, they're not necessarily spending enough time thinking about 23 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 4: the cultural change that are needed to make people feel 24 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 4: that they belong and members of dominant groups white people 25 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 4: meant tend to be very much at the center of 26 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 4: the conversation and are often located more centrally in the space, 27 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 4: for instance. So my book is very much about how 28 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 4: to make more people feel worthy. And if we think 29 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 4: of the role of organization well, for instance, putting together 30 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 4: programs that reward people for being parents and make it 31 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 4: possible for people to bring their older parents to the doctor. 32 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 4: Giving some flexibility in work hours, for instance, are the 33 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 4: kind of policies that can really make it. 34 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: I love more well. I just want to jump in, Michelle, 35 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: because we only we only have a few minutes with you, 36 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: and I want to make sure we get to everything 37 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: on our long list of questions here. But you bring 38 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: up something that's so interesting in the wake of the 39 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: way that the workplace has changed post pandemic, if we 40 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: can call this post pandemic, I certainly feel like we 41 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: are in a different world when it comes to flexibility. 42 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: I feel totally comfortable going to doctor's appointments, bringing my 43 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: kid to doctor's appointments, Approaching my managers about these things 44 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: in a way that I didn't before the pandemic, because 45 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, not everybody comes into work five days a 46 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: week these days. I mean, how do you do this 47 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: in a way that in a way where we have 48 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: a distributed workforce? 49 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, those are positive changes. But what has come 50 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 4: also with the pandemic is that some of the aspects 51 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 4: of life that are released sustained by regular work is 52 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 4: that we build relationship with our coworkers. We feel seen 53 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 4: by them. And as more of us are spending more 54 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,679 Speaker 4: time stated on our computers and being evaluated by algorithms, 55 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 4: interacting with data more than we are people, the sense 56 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 4: of how we gain recognition from the workplace is really diminishing. 57 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 4: And that's a real problem for gen zs who have 58 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 4: such a desire to feel more social inclusion and to 59 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 4: really value quality of life, not only working to make money, 60 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 4: but working to have rich relationships that allows them to 61 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 4: really be all they want to be in life. 62 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 2: So those is this the argument for a return to 63 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: office from a diversity and inclusion perspective. 64 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 4: Not really. I think my focus is not necessarily no, sorry, 65 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 4: The argument is really about how sorry. The argument is 66 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 4: really about how to create a workplace that is more 67 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 4: fulfilling for people because they feel more worthy, they feel 68 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 4: more valued in the eyes of their co workers. So 69 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 4: how to create structures that allow them to develop relationships 70 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 4: that are deeper. 71 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: So how do you do that in a world where 72 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: remote workers are not the exception anymore? 73 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 4: Well by creating opportunities for people to really you know, 74 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 4: if you create an environment where there's more emphasis on 75 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 4: allowing people to live authentically and to bring their best self. 76 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 4: I taught during the pandemic, and I remember my undergraduates saying, 77 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,679 Speaker 4: you really need to in the classroom create a culture 78 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 4: that allows us to bring our best self. And I 79 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 4: was very puzzled. I asked them, what do you mean? 80 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 4: They say, I don't want to feel like I have 81 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 4: to be in this environment where I'm supposed to present 82 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 4: a picture of who I am that is untrue, or 83 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 4: I have to be exposed to ideas that are really 84 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 4: contrary to what I value. So of course that's part 85 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 4: of the educational system to learn about ideas that are 86 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 4: not familiar or agreeable to you. But there's a focus 87 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 4: put on attentics by young people that future employers really 88 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 4: need to think about if they want to retain them. 89 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 2: But to some degree, everyone puts on some sort of 90 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 2: persona when they go to the office, right, whether it's 91 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: you know, doing your hair more nicely than you would 92 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 2: on the weekend or putting on nicer clothes. 93 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 4: I mean, yes, is it too much you variation in 94 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 4: the extent to which this is people can disclose their 95 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 4: real selves thing. For instance, of people who've had miscarriages 96 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 4: at work, I mean, how much do they talk about this? 97 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 4: How much? How free do they feel that they can 98 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 4: reveal this drama to their supervisor. There's some environment in 99 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 4: which we're all expected to present, you know, who we 100 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 4: are in a very formal way, and there's others that 101 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,679 Speaker 4: are much more open to experiencing people, you know, through 102 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 4: their authentic selfs. So these are some of the consideration 103 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 4: that the book is talking about in terms of inclusion 104 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 4: and also promoting diversity is not only about numbers. It's also, 105 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 4: as you said earlier, it's very much about signaling that 106 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 4: everyone belongs by for instance, the way that the offices 107 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 4: are distributed. Who are going to be receiving the offices 108 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 4: that are in the corner, far away from everyone, and 109 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 4: who's going to be more at the center of the networks. 110 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 4: Those are among the questions that employers may want to consider. 111 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: Michelle, I think one challenge that I think about when 112 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: you talk about authenticity is what we see in Washington 113 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: today and what we see from our politicians here in 114 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: the United States. Authenticity is not a word I would 115 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: use to describe the interactions the relationships that take place there. 116 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering how we do this in a world 117 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: where the behavior for you know, what's modeled for us 118 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: is sort of the polar opposite. 119 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 4: No, absolutely, And when we think about the very large 120 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 4: percentage of the American population that doesn't vote, it's in 121 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 4: particular because they perceive people in d C as extremely fake. 122 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 4: And I think as the working class is really being 123 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 4: courted by the Democratic Party and the Republican Party as well, 124 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 4: there's a real need to have discussion within each party 125 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 4: about how are they able to better appeal to the 126 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 4: working class, in part by signaling that the value authenticity 127 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 4: and people being people and people being more real if 128 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 4: you want so. There's such a class divide in the 129 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 4: political culture and in between the elite, college educated professionals 130 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 4: who dominate the workplace and who dominate d C that 131 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 4: I think if we want more people to take democracy 132 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 4: seriously and to be invested in our society, there's really 133 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 4: a need to think and to discuss the place of 134 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 4: sincerity and authenticity as we interact with each other at 135 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 4: work and also in the political world. 136 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 2: Weigh in a little bit on the impact of the 137 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 2: Supreme Court's decision to really narrow affirmative action, to essentially 138 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: remove this from being a strong criteria that you know, 139 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: universities can use. And there is some speculation that this 140 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: or some form of this rule may get applied to 141 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: the workplace as well. I mean, talk to me about 142 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 2: how business leaders can get past us. 143 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 4: I don't think it will be very easy. If you 144 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,239 Speaker 4: think of the rulings as it applies to higher education, 145 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 4: there's this class that says students can write as says. 146 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 4: So it's true that there's certainly a possibility for universities 147 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 4: to slightly get around this, But in a Supreme Court 148 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 4: that is dominated by six Supreme Court judges who are 149 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 4: fundamentally conservative, it's absolutely predictable that they will go after 150 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 4: affirmative action at many different level, and yet I think 151 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 4: our workplaces are already extremely diverse. So we can think 152 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 4: of many context in which those who do the evaluation will, 153 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 4: you know, find ways create the kind of workplace that 154 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 4: is reflexive of what the future of American society is 155 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 4: in terms of diversity, but also in terms of the 156 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 4: population that they are serving. As the number of non 157 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 4: whites is increasing rapidly in the US, all organizations that 158 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 4: provide services will want also to have a staff that 159 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 4: with whom the clients can relate. So I think that 160 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 4: bureaucratic processes are not functioning in isolation from real life. 161 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 4: And at that level, I'm somewhat optimistic about the opportunity 162 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 4: to go around the rules. 163 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 1: If you will, Michelle, we really appreciate you joining us 164 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: this afternoon on Bloomberg Business Week. Michell Laman as professor 165 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: of sociology at Harvard her new book, Seeing Others, How 166 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: Recognition Works and How it can heal a divided world. 167 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: It's out now.