1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You. From how Stuff 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and we are talking today about 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: interracial marriage because earlier this year in the Pew Center 5 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: for Search released a study uh talking about how interracial 6 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: marriage is at an all time high in the United States. 7 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: And this is something also that a topic that a 8 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: number of listeners have requested for a while now, and 9 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: we decided, hey, it's high time we talked about this. Yeah, 10 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: And I think the most interesting thing about this topic, 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: and I was telling Kristin this before we started recording, 12 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: actually is that you can look at this from a 13 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: historical perspective all the way up through now that the 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: rise and interracial marriage is really linked to the broader 15 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: nature of race relations in general society, as as things 16 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: not just interracial marriage, as a lot of things in 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: society become more accepted. Obviously they become more popular. That 18 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 1: seems to be common sense, but you can definitely track 19 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: that as more people have an open attitude about people 20 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: of different races and ethnicities marrying each other, it happens 21 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: more often, right, And that also is going to be 22 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: linked to the constitution the constitutionality of interracial marriage in 23 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: the landmark case of Loving versus Virginia. But first let's 24 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: go way back and talk about, um, what what led 25 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: to initially the crackdown on interracial sex, which was that 26 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: was the first main concern back in colonial days in 27 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: the United States. And apologies to international listeners, this is 28 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: very US centric, but um, I think there's still a 29 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: lot of lessons that can be that can be taken 30 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: from this. So going back um in time, and this 31 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: is referencing a paper written by Aaron Gulakson published in 32 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: a Journal of Family History in July two thousand and six, 33 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: and he looked at interracial sex versus interracial marriage and 34 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: also the concomitant rise of anti miskagnation statutes. So when 35 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: people started first coming over to the New World back 36 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: in the seventeenth century, UM, white indentured servitude was just 37 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: as commonplace as black slavery for the most part. That 38 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: that does turn obviously where indentured servitude from whites falls 39 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: by the wayside. But during that time, when they were 40 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 1: side by side, slave owners had this big fear that 41 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: indentured servants who were white might band together with black 42 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: slaves in open rebellions. So there was all that there 43 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: was this big push to keep them separate, and that 44 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: if they had sex, if they had any type of 45 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: relationship developed, any any sort of allied relationship, that they 46 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: would turn against the elite white class. Yeah, and that 47 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: was the origin of those first statutes that we have 48 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: saying hey, whites and blacks no, uh, no sex, no, 49 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: and certainly no marriage. But then Aaron Galicson goes on 50 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: to trace a decline in interracial marriage and interracial sex 51 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: in places where interracial marriage would not have been legal 52 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: from eighteen eighty to nineteen thirty, along with the growth 53 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: of Jim Crow laws in the post Civil War South 54 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: and racial segregation that is happening in the North. And 55 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: then from n nineteen forty four a little window of time, 56 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: there's actually an increase in interracial relationships because of the 57 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: waning of that Jim Crow system. And then from there, 58 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: once we hit the Civil Rights era and beyond, there 59 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: has been a steady exponential growth that gets us up 60 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: to two thousand twelve to where we have it at 61 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: an all time high. Right, But to go back to 62 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: that Civil rights era, there was an excellent article in 63 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: the Harvard Crimson in nineteen sixty three that American racism 64 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: rests upon social practice but is quote strongly bulwarked by 65 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,239 Speaker 1: many state and local laws. And so they talk about 66 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,679 Speaker 1: how this anti misky genation legislation most directly protects quote, 67 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: racial integrity, all of these fears about what happens if 68 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: you get people from different races having children, right, because obviously, 69 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,119 Speaker 1: like the days of slavery are long gone, but there's 70 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: still so much racial and racist tensions going on between uh, 71 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: you know, especially coming from white lawmakers who who want 72 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: to keep the races separate. I mean, this is the 73 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: era too of in nineteen sixty three, when this article 74 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: is being written, it's only been ten years since Brown 75 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: versus Board of Education, which struck down that separate but 76 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: equal closet, said hey, you know, it's fine if we 77 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: you know, we can just maintain our own spaces. We 78 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: don't need to really hang out together, right. Um. But 79 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: then on June twelfth, nineteen sixty seven, the Supreme Court 80 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: finally declared uh antim assassination laws to be unconstitutional and 81 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: essentially banning or prohibiting blacks and whites, or people from 82 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: any races from marrying each other. Uh, they said, cannot 83 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: can't happen anymore United States, right, and yeah, this is 84 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: loving the Virginia which Kristen mentioned. Um, this was this 85 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: was an amazing case because this was these were two 86 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: people who loved each other who had to leave Caroline County, 87 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: Virginia to go to Washington, d C. To get married 88 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: because that's where it was legal. So in nineteen fifty eight, Richard, 89 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: who was white, and Mildred, who was black, go to 90 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 1: DC to get married. When they returned to Virginia, they 91 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 1: are promptly arrested, ailed and banned from the state for 92 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: twenty five years for violating the state's Racial Integrity Act. 93 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: There's those words again, racial integrity. And I would be 94 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: curious to know whether or not it might have had 95 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: the swiftness with which the Lovings were arrested. I wonder 96 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:16,559 Speaker 1: if it also had something to do with the fact 97 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: that they got married, because they found out too that 98 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: Mildred was pregnant. And so there's that old fear that 99 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: comes up again. It's not so much of people having sex, 100 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: but more marriage and procreation. Um. And so once they 101 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: are banned from the state in nineteen sixty three. Obviously, 102 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: they want to return home, they want to be able 103 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: to go back to Caroline County, but they don't know 104 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: what to do. And so Richard Loving actually writes a 105 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: letter to then Attorney General Robert Kennedy asking whether or 106 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: not there's anything with the Civil Rights Act that could 107 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: apply to their case and allow them to go home, 108 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: to have that that case struck down, and Robert Kenney 109 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: then refers them to the a c l U. In nine, 110 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: the a c l U petitions the court to strike 111 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: down that former ruling. But the Court in Virginia's like no. 112 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: But then they say, all right, let's take it up, 113 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, the flagpole to the Supreme Court, right and 114 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: Chief Justice Earl Warren basically said that the Act, the 115 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: Racial Integrity Act, serves no purpose but that of invidious 116 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: racial discrimination, which is basically discrimination designed to oppress a 117 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: particular group or brand it's members as inferior. And this 118 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: gets into the whole idea of things that seem okay, innocuous, 119 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: acceptable now at a separate time, at a different time 120 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: in the past, may have seemed like something terrible. Specifically, 121 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: the Street Supreme Court found that they were in violation 122 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: of the fourteenth Amendment or the the equal protection clause. 123 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: And there was a constitutional scholar, uh that talked about 124 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: how this is a reflection of the way that the 125 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: changing mindset of society changes in a way or has 126 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: evolved that concept of the fourteenth Amendment and of that 127 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: equal protection because if this case had come up, say 128 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: a hundred years prior when yeah, equal protection for uh 129 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: for black people did not exist at that time, So 130 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: how could the fourteenth Amendment apply to them in this case? 131 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: But having moved forward to you know, the late sixties, 132 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: we have civil rights going on, there's a social tide 133 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: that is turning, uh, then you could have that ruling 134 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: come down and so all of these anti missigenation laws 135 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: are found unconstitutional. Right, Well, so then not takes is 136 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: all the way to now with the release of this 137 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: Pew Research Center report which shows how just how common 138 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: uh interracial marriages these days, and they found that about 139 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: of all new marriages and twenty hi we're between spouses 140 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: of a different race or ethnicity, and that's up from 141 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: six point seven percent in nine. Yeah, And I would 142 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: argue that now the changes that we're seeing in these 143 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: percentages like we had like legally you know, the doors 144 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: are open. And since then it's been more of a 145 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: journey of acceptance for interracial couples because it's not like 146 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court handed down that loving the Virginia decision 147 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: on June twelfth, ninety seven, and suddenly everyone was like, 148 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: oh cool, Okay, let's watch guess who's coming to get 149 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: dinner and we can be just one big, happy, multi 150 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: ethnic family. Right. No, but the good news is is that, uh, 151 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: those perceptions are changing. Yeah, and to look at the 152 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: percentages of just who's doing what um they term marrying out. 153 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 1: That's you know, marrying out someone outside of your own 154 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: race or ethnic group. Twenty eight percent of Asians married 155 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: out in of Hispanics, se percent of African Americans, and 156 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: nine percent of whites. Yeah, and uh, I know he 157 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 1: said that there was of all new marriages and that's 158 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: new marriages in reached that that all time high. But 159 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: then if you look at all marriages is one big pot, 160 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: not just new marriages. Uh, this is from they make 161 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: up eight point four percent, which is still obviously that's 162 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: that's not you know, a huge percentage, but it's still 163 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: up significantly from when it was only three point two percent. 164 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: And then if we look down at gender patterns, there 165 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,839 Speaker 1: are some interesting things going on there as well. For instance, 166 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 1: about of all black male newlyweds in twent married outside 167 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: their race, compared with nine percent of Black female newlywoods. 168 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: Whereas the situation is flipped when it comes to Asian Americans. Right, Yeah, 169 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: thirty six percent of Asian email newlyweds married outside their race, 170 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: compared with just seventeen percent of Asian male lily weeds. 171 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: And economically, the annual earnings of inter racial couples are 172 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: about the same as the median earnings of I guess 173 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: what did you call it? Same race where they're marrying 174 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: in or marrying Okay, so married out couples, married in 175 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: couples all making about the same thing. But there are 176 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: some some differences when you further break that down into uh, 177 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: into different races and ethnicities. Yeah, it turns out that 178 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: white slash Asian couples, So when one is one person's white, 179 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: one person's Asian, they have the highest median combined annual earnings. Yeah, 180 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: that's seventy tho. And it's not entirely surprising because when 181 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: it comes to couples that marry in Asians again may 182 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: make the most money sixty two dollars average, Yeah, followed 183 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: by white couples, so I guess you put them together, 184 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: they make seventy tho and dollars and a lot of 185 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: times that is attributed to I guess education background, things 186 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: like that. Regionally, of all nearly wood's in Western states 187 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: married out, and fourteen percent in the South. You know, 188 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: we think about you know, maybe like the South not 189 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: being as interracial friendly, but indeed maybe because of more 190 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: racial diversity in the South, I don't know, don't call 191 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: me an ethnographer. Uh, followed by in Northeast and eleven 192 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: percent in the Midwest, and Hawaii is quite the hub. 193 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: So yeah, in Hawaii rate of forty two percent of 194 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: interracial marriages between two thousand and eight and two thousand 195 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: and ten. But I would argue that more so than 196 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: just basic demographics in terms of really the significance of 197 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: this dial shifting in terms of the rise of interracial 198 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: marriage is how our public acceptance of interracial relationships have changed. 199 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: And according to these Pew statistics, say that people of 200 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: different races marrying each other has been a change for 201 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: the better. Now eleven percent say that that has been 202 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: a change for the worst. Uh, and pcent say, hey, 203 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: you know what it makes It doesn't make a difference. Yeah. 204 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: The people who are more likely to see interracial marriage 205 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: and a positive light include minorities, younger adults, the college educated, 206 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: people who refer to themselves as liberal, and people living 207 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: in the Northeast or the West. And for just a 208 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: couple more percentages, sixt of people in this survey said 209 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: it would be fine if a family member married out 210 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 1: of their race, and thirty five percent said a member 211 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: of their immediate family or a close relative is currently 212 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: married to someone of a different race. So if we 213 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: are not ourselves, we tend to know people, we usually 214 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: think it's fine. It's only a minority that eleven percent 215 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: who still take a negative view of it, And I 216 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: would assume that that eleven percent might be a a 217 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: generational differences are probably older people who remember and lived 218 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: through the times when it wasn't okay for for us 219 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: to all get along. Well. I think an interesting case 220 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: study in it being acceptable or not comes from Alabama. Yes, 221 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: they Alabama has a history, and in nine the Alabama 222 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: Senate voted to repeal the state's constitutional prohibition against interracial marriage. Yeah, 223 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: I mean the what what that means is not that 224 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: interracial marriage was illegal in Alabama obviously, like once the 225 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: Supreme Court handed down that sixties seven decision, like yes, 226 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: you could get married anywhere, but it was still on 227 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: the books, hanging out on the books, and uh, it 228 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: didn't it didn't go Yeah. Um. State Representative Phil Kriegler 229 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: at the time said that he personally was opposed to 230 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: interracial marriage, but he voted for the repeal basically because 231 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: it wasn't enforced, Like the prohibition of interracial marriage wasn't enforced, 232 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: so he'll go ahead and vote for it. Fine, and 233 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: then their state representative Alvin Holmes, because you know, so 234 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: here's Kriegler saying, well, it's not enforced anyway. But state 235 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: Representative Alvin Holmes, who's the one who really pushed for 236 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: the repeal for years, said that in parts of rural Alabama, 237 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: probate judges were still refusing to issue marriage licenses to 238 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: some interracial couples. Right, and this, I mean, this is 239 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: something that still happens. There was a story and not 240 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: just in Alabama. And we should also mentioned too for uh, 241 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: you know listeners in Alabama, we're like wait, no, um 242 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: that public opinion polls found that a majority of Alabama 243 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: voters would definitely be in support of the state repealing 244 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: that UM. But this was reported in the Christian Science 245 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: Monitor in October two thousand nine of a Louisiana Justice 246 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: of the Peace who refused to marry a white woman 247 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: and a black man because he believed children of an 248 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: interracial marriage would suffer socially. And we will get into 249 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: that misguided claim as well. UM, So there are unfortunately 250 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: still these these pockets of racist fear, you know, to 251 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: call call it what it is between um inter marriage. 252 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: But for for one one more bit of information where 253 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: interracial marriage has actually gone down. One group that's gone 254 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: down with is again with Asian Americans. Yeah, so we 255 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: mentioned that the highest percentage of people marrying outside their 256 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: race is Asians, but that twenty percent of Asians who 257 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: married out in is actually down from thirty and two 258 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: thousand eight. And so there's all these like theories being 259 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: batted around like uh this. One New York Times writer 260 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: said that there's a resurgence of interest in language and 261 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: ancestral traditions, but Wall Street Journal writer Jeff Yang in 262 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: April disputes that and He said that a it's more 263 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 1: about shared experiences and backgrounds, not so much that you're 264 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: going to marry someone just because you guys can speak 265 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: a language or have shared ancestry. He also says that 266 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: there's just more Asian people in this country now. He 267 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: pointed out that Asian Americans were the fastest growing ethnic 268 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: group in the United States from two thousand to two 269 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: thousand and ten. They grew by forty six percent. So 270 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: he so he's saying, hey, you know what, maybe it's 271 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: not so much of you know, we're all learning Mandarin 272 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: and taking an interest and yeah, then that's just one 273 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: example for you know, for this large swath of people 274 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: and ethnic backgrounds I'm talking about. But uh, he said, 275 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: it's probably more a fact that there are simply more 276 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: of us, right, and he cites as theologists c In 277 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: Lee who found that since two thousand six, the frequency 278 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: of inter Asian marriage, So not just a Chinese person 279 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: marrying another Chinese person, but you know, maybe someone of 280 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: Thai discent marrying someone of Filipino descent, that kind of thing. Basically, 281 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: he says that they're not necessarily marrying quote, their particular 282 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: flavor of Asian American and so because of this, inter 283 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: Asian marriage has risen by more than eight percent among 284 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: all Asian Americans and more than fifteen percent among Asians 285 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: raised here in the US. But to transition to uh, 286 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: to the next thing that we need to touch on, 287 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: there was a story in the Washington Post kind of 288 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,719 Speaker 1: linked to this rise of interracial marriage. It was an 289 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: article on the also rise of bi racial and multi 290 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: racial children as well, and they were talking about a 291 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: first generation Vietnamese woman who was married to a black man, 292 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: and she was telling the Washington Post reporter about how 293 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,239 Speaker 1: her six year old daughter had started asking questions of, 294 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: you know, why her her skin looked different than her 295 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: mom's and the different kind of questions that they were 296 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: starting to have to confront with this, and um, so 297 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: that leads us to this issue of well what about 298 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: the kids, because I feel like that has been the 299 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: you know, the politely racist undertone question of well, you know, 300 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: well you don't need you know, we don't need to 301 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: have in a racial marriage because then these kids won't 302 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: understand their their identity. Who will they be? What box 303 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: will they check? Exactly? Yeah, this goes back to the 304 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,719 Speaker 1: Louisiana justice of the piece that Kristen mentioned earlier and 305 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: the quote unquote tragic mulatto stereotype basically like, yeah, these 306 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: kids won't know who they are. They'll get bullied because 307 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: they won't it in with one race group or another 308 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: race group, like they won't know where they fit. But 309 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: the thing is, with a greater acceptance of interracial marriage 310 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: comes a greater acceptance of multi racial and biracial children. 311 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: And there is definitely a movement. There was one article 312 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: that we read about students with a College of Maryland 313 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: University of Maryland so UM, where they were forming a 314 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: group to lend support trade stories, you know, talk about 315 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: like weird things that people ask them like what are 316 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: you So I think there is a greater movement towards 317 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: acceptance in that arena too. Yeah, and props to the U. S. 318 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 1: Census as well, because guess what, you can now check 319 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: as many boxes as you want, because I don't think 320 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: that for most Americans really, if you go back and 321 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: trace your heritage, one box would correctly apply. Right And 322 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: uh so, you know I mentioned college students. A New 323 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: York Times article in January said that students moving through 324 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: college right now include the largest group of mixed race 325 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: people ever to come of age in the US, and 326 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: they say, you know, it's not tragic like that stereotype 327 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: that many young adults of mixed backgrounds are rejecting the 328 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: color lines in favor of a more fluid sense of identity. 329 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: And uh, it's interesting to see the different interpretations of 330 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: that rejection of the color lines, as you put it, because, uh, 331 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 1: you know, optimistically, it's saying, hey, we maybe we are 332 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: transcending race. We often hear the phrase like living in 333 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: a post racial era, which can be debated at nauseum. 334 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: And then there's a pessimistic side saying, well, this is 335 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: only going to add more stratification because now we're going 336 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: to have these subcategories of these categories, and that's gonna 337 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: only make it even worse. And then sociologists uh seem 338 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 1: oddly concerned as well that grouping all multiracial people together 339 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: is gonna gloss over differences in their circumstances. But really 340 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: that sounds like sociologists being like, hey, we're gonna have 341 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: to do more work now. I don't want to do that. 342 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: Although I love sociology, no offense theologists out there. I'm 343 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,719 Speaker 1: sure you're all hard working, but yeah, really, nobody, nobody 344 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: needs to worry too terribly much. I think because a 345 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: two thousand eight study of one eight two mixed race 346 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: California high schoolers found that these kids really didn't focus 347 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: on exclusionary features like skin color or hair texture when 348 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: talking about themselves. They really seem to look at their 349 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: unique heritage as a positive. They you know, it made 350 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 1: them unique. The as the writer says, you know, these 351 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: kids can put one foot in one group, one foot 352 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: and another group, and that sort of serves to possibly 353 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 1: buffer them from you know, negative consequences of feeling, as 354 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: they say, feeling tokenized. So the whole excuse of I 355 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 1: don't want to grant you a marriage license or perform 356 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: a ceremony because you're black and you're white and your 357 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: kids might suffer. Well, yeah, and and then also if 358 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: there's anything too that we have learned from the podcast, 359 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: research that we have done on parenting topics and child 360 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: outcomes is that you you can't you can't narrow a 361 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: child outcome down to one single dependent variable that's going 362 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: to change the entire equation. You know, the color of 363 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: your skin is not gonna say well, you know, well, 364 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: you you don't look exactly like your mom and dad. 365 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: So sorry, tough road to hoe ahead, No, not at all. 366 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: And really the fact the matter is the broader the 367 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 1: social acceptance continues to become. Then I think that we're 368 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: gonna look back in fifty years and that's going to 369 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: be a moot point. This whole idea of potential negative 370 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: child outcomes. Yeah, exactly, it's an it's an outdated argument because, yeah, 371 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: the children grow up and become normal adults with normal 372 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: adult problems that aren't necessarily related to what color their 373 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: parents are, what color their skin is. And I know 374 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: I kind of mentioned this earlier in the podcast, but 375 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: can you think of a better landmark case to strike down, 376 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: like the unconstitutionality of interracial or anti interracial marriage laws? 377 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: But loving v Virginia doesn't it make your heart just 378 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: a little bit warmer? Or write? Would that make you unhealthy? 379 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: I mean, I've got a fever, a fever for love, 380 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: Viva for love for everyone. Uh So, so that's it. 381 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: I feel like we we just offered a snapshot. There's 382 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: so much more that we could talk about, but for now, 383 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: this is the this is where we are in with 384 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: interracial marriage. So I want to hear from folks out 385 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: here there who have maybe a confronted this, who have 386 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: dealt with this, who are in interracial relationships, people from 387 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: also from other countries who might be listening how this 388 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: our social situation here compares to what's going on where 389 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: you are. Let us know. Mom's Stuff at Discovery dot 390 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: com is where you can send your letter, And first 391 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: before we get to your listener mail, we have a 392 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: quick word from Netflix, who kindly brought us this episode 393 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: of Stuff Mom Never Told You, so for a limited time, 394 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: listeners of stuff Mom Never Told You can head over 395 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: to Netflix dot com slash stuff and browse their enormous 396 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: library of movies and television shows and get a free 397 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: trial membership. Uh and it's we were thinking that stuff 398 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: Mom Never told you listeners might enjoy going to Netflix 399 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: dot com slash mom and looking at How Stuff Works. 400 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: That's right. If you go into the documentary section, they 401 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: do offer the How Stuff Works from the Discovery channel. 402 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: It is a series of shows based on the cool 403 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: stuff that we do at How Stuff Works. So don't 404 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: delay because titles are subject to availability, but head on 405 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: over to Netflix dot com slash mom so that you 406 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: can get your free trial membership. Now back to our letters, 407 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: and here's a letter from Betty about our film Phobia podcast. 408 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: She yea. She wanted to share some perspective. She says, 409 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: first the context, I am nearly sixty years old and 410 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: was an adolescent and young adult during the boom of 411 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: the second wave of feminism. Yes, we pretty much loathed 412 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: all things feminine, such as ruffles, high heels, and yes, pink. 413 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: As the years have gone by, I have come to 414 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: understand a few things, one of which is that I 415 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: was at a loss as to how to be a woman. 416 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: I didn't know what it meant to be a feminist, autonomous, accomplished, 417 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: and still female. We didn't have many role models and 418 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: we're casting about for answers, and we couldn't figure out 419 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 1: how physical attractiveness could possibly be a part of the equation. Today, 420 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: I am much more comfortable in my own skin and 421 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 1: much less hasty to judge people's personal taste. It is 422 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: now easier for me to separate appearances from substance and 423 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,719 Speaker 1: to embrace womanliness. I first began to feel truly feminine 424 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: when I became pregnant in my early thirties, and for 425 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: the first time I started wanting to wear jewelry and 426 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: to look pretty. Not only that I felt beautiful, which 427 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,479 Speaker 1: was a new sensation to me, and right when by 428 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: conventional standards, I probably looked my least magazine cover attractive. 429 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: So now I am more tolerant, especially of young women 430 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 1: who are still on that road to self definition. It's 431 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:31,959 Speaker 1: not easy to do, and no one can do it 432 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: for you. If a girl chooses polka dots, sparkles, glitz, 433 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: and even cartoonishness, I smile indulgently, no longer assume anything 434 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: about the beliefs or attitude she holds below the surface. 435 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: The only thing I disparaged now in the appearance of 436 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 1: young girls is over sexualization, not because it is or 437 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: is not in accordance with my personal taste, but because 438 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: I feel they are demeaning themselves. It breaks my motherly heart. 439 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: Too bad. I didn't start feeling comfortable in my own 440 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: skin back when my skin was still lovely. Here I 441 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: am growing long in the tooth and finally making an 442 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: effort to look pretty, but I still have but I 443 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: still hate pink. There is no accounting for taste. So 444 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: thank you, Betty Well. I got one here from Juliet 445 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: and this is in response to an episoded a while 446 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: ago on whether or not women can ask out men 447 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: or that just the idea of like women dating a 448 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: little more aggressively, and she writes, I'm answering your call 449 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 1: for thoughts on women doing the asking and dating situations. 450 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: I can't speak for lesbians, but I can speak for 451 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: hetero and bisexual ladies. In the bisexual community, the problem 452 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: of asking women out comes up so often. It's a 453 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: joke that were like two sheep sidling up next to 454 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: each other, no one making eye contact, each one hoping 455 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: that if we just position ourselves in close proximity will 456 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: magically end up on a date. And how easy would 457 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: it be if that's how this worked? She says, Many 458 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: bisexual women don't come out until later in life, and 459 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: I've already spent a few years getting asked out by men. 460 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: Asking people out is a muscle that has to be exercised. 461 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: Often women are just out of practice. Since I came 462 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: out as by I've been working out, but it's not easy. 463 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: You mentioned in the podcast the fact that women worry 464 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: more about the feelings of the other. I've found it 465 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: pretty easy to ignore that impulse with men. Men generally 466 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: like being asked out, or at least so more often 467 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: tell you directly if they don't. But if I'm asking 468 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: out a woman, my empathy anticipates her empathy, and I 469 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: worry double that she will think something unflattering about me 470 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: when I ask her out, But she won't tell me, 471 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: and she'll try to be nice because it's probably what 472 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: I do. We second guess ourselves a lot where dating 473 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: is concerned, and I'm finding the most success when I 474 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: take a page out of my head or a male 475 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: friends books, in the same way that straight women often 476 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: need a gay male friend to give them a different 477 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: point of view and some confidence. By women can benefit 478 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: a lot from a guy friend who's not dating material, 479 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: or at most a friend with benefits. Just make sure 480 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: your buddy doesn't creep out the ladies and is magnanimous 481 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: when you called DIBs so a wing dude. That's what 482 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: That's what I'm hearing. Well, thanks to Julia and Betty 483 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: and everyone else who has written in mom stuff at 484 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: Discovery dot com is our email address. Can't wait to 485 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: hear from everybody, and can't wait to see you over 486 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,719 Speaker 1: at Facebook, where you can find us, and you can 487 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: also follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, and 488 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: you can follow us on Tumbler as well at stuff 489 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You dot tumbler dot com. And don't 490 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: forget to make yourself smart during the week by heading 491 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: over to our website, it's how stuff works dot com 492 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Does 493 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com.