1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Now I'm gonna slide into the d 4 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: MS here of our show. Uh and and hit up 5 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,599 Speaker 1: our super producer, mister Max Williams with a slow blink. 6 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 2: Max tap bill fan, Max Tap tap the fan. Just 7 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 2: so pull that glove off slowly, one finger at a time, Yeah, inductively. 8 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: I want you to really feel that one right. 9 00:00:57,960 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 3: Uh. 10 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: My name is Ben Bullen. Who are those dulcet tones? 11 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: Why that's mister Noel Brown, who's been sliding into my 12 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,479 Speaker 1: dms for a number of years now. 13 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 2: It's so so erotic when you say it like that. 14 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: We mostly guys. We mostly text each other. Gosh, it's 15 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: weird how often we talk even when we're not working. 16 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: Fellow Ridiculous Historians, Noel and I have been flirting with 17 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: each other in a very supportive way. 18 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 2: For lo these many you was gonna say, lo these men, wow, 19 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, they were off to such a bang. 20 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, your mind reader. We should hang out. 21 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 2: We did. 22 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 4: To jump in here with a little funny count. I 23 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 4: just did we have sent twenty seven direct messages to 24 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 4: each other via our communication software this morning alone. 25 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: It is not noon yet. Yeah, I'm cool with that. 26 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 4: I love everyone. 27 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 2: They're consensual, by the way, no one's like blowing any Yeah. 28 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we're we're actually Usually when Max and NOL 29 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: and I text each other guys, or talk to each 30 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: other when we're not on the air, it's weirdly supportive 31 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: stuff or a very niche thing that we want. 32 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: Each other to see. Yeah, it's quite a romance. For example, 33 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 2: just the other day or this morning, in fact, I 34 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 2: texted you both birds do it? Bees? Do it? Even educated? 35 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 2: Flease do it, guys, let's do it, let's fall in love. Yeah. 36 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I I super liked that. I believe on 37 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: that social platform. 38 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 2: You even do that. Oh, Vix, I didn't know you 39 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 2: could super like via text. 40 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Remember when I figured out that was that? 41 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: Remember when I figured out it was on text with you, Nol. 42 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: I figured out that the newest iPhone update let you make. 43 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 2: A bicker, yeah, or like makes them vibrates with ecstasy. 44 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 2: That's I'm sorry, guys, it's a horny episode today. 45 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: This poor guy, this my Nol, this poor guy had 46 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: to witness me in real time on text figure out 47 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,839 Speaker 1: from how you can make the words in biggin and 48 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 1: vibrate ooh to mess it. 49 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:18,399 Speaker 2: Well, I have a little condition called fat finger syndrome, 50 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 2: so I'm constantly making words vibrate and dance around and 51 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: explode into confetti and all of that. But Ben, Yeah, 52 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: back to the that titillating text that I sent you, guys, 53 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 2: I really did do that. I didn't actually are our 54 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: incredible research associate Ren Fair put that Renfair, renfests, you 55 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 2: know Potato Patato put those lyrics at the top of 56 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: this incredible research brief that she wrote for us, which 57 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: are from the Broadway composer and songwriter Cole Porter in 58 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 2: his nineteen twenty eight musical Paris. I honestly didn't know 59 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: that I knew the line. I've heard it repeated in 60 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: cartoons and probably heard various covers of it, but no, 61 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 2: I've never even heard of. 62 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: Paris Ella Fitzgerald cover. 63 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: That's the one I know the best. Beautiful. Uh. 64 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: And as as Renfest points out, falling in love is 65 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: always nice, it takes a little work of fraud to 66 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: get the sparks flight. I'm I'm quoting you there, red. 67 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 2: H And do you remember a latter Day Aerosmith song 68 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 2: was called falling in Love is So Hard on the knees? Yes? Yes, 69 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: What does that even mean? I guess it means you're 70 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: always begging? Or is it some sort of innuendo? Is 71 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: he's saying falling in love is hard? Is difficult? Going 72 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: to be great? 73 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: I think it means Steven Tyler is bad at lyrics? 74 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 2: Okay, that's fair. Yeah, maybe he has slumped a little bit. 75 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: He had a country music album that came out as 76 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: a single called Her Name Is Love. 77 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 2: But come on, dude, dude looks like a lady not 78 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 2: well at all in an elevator? Is there going in 79 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 2: an elevator? They're falling in love in an elevator. 80 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: So with this in mind, we know that the course 81 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: of true love never did run smooth, right to quote 82 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: our buddy Willie Shakes. So we are a no judgment show. 83 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: You know, we usually back each other up, and we 84 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: usually back up everybody who tunes in with us. 85 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 2: That's the thing though, and I think it's a great 86 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 2: entry point into today's story because a lot of it 87 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: is about the decorum of flirting and the way people 88 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 2: would often flout said decorum. You know, yeah, yeahkly doing 89 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 2: their best. 90 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and with help from our research associate Red and Fest, 91 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: we are exploring the idea of flirtation. Noel Max did 92 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: ether If you, guys, ever have a moment where you 93 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: got flirted upon and realized it after the fact. 94 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 4: Oh God, too many in my life. I am a 95 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 4: I am sometimes painfully unaware. I have it with my 96 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 4: uh advanced age. Now I'm kind of happy about that. 97 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 4: I find I'm a little happier when I'm blissfully unaware 98 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 4: of about stuff but in love it. You realize after 99 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 4: the fact, like three months later, Oh, that person who 100 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 4: I who I find attractive used to hit on me 101 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 4: pretty aggressively, and now they don't because I didn't pick 102 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 4: up on the fact that they were hitting on me. 103 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: You'll get that great dermatologist. 104 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 4: One day, guys, Yeah, the Greek dermatologist. 105 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 2: I think I'm so blissfully unaware of it that I 106 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 2: could probably even to this day, argue that No, that 107 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: has never happened. All right. 108 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: For any fans of quantum leap, please realize that my 109 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: pal Nola and I often hang out. It is situation 110 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: where I'm kind of like your your sidekick in your 111 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: Scott Baculus spot, you know, and yeah, yeah, helping. 112 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: Me out here. What's the word, siran knowing me kind of? Yes? 113 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: Oh, well done. Uh So today we are talking about 114 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: flirting in the Victorian era, specifically. 115 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: Ben, I did think you were gonna, you know, throw 116 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: me a bone there and say, and as your wingman, 117 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 2: I can, with one percent accuracy certainty say that you 118 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: have definitely been low key flirted with, but you didn't 119 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: go there. And I respect to check man, and I've 120 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: got a check with Ziggy. What Ziggy could check with 121 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: is psychology today for a pretty solid definition of the 122 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 2: concept of flirting. They describe it as nature's solution to 123 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 2: the problem every creature faces in a world full of 124 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: potential mates, how to choose the right one. We all 125 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: need a partner who is not merely fertile but genetically different, 126 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: as well as healthy enough to a viable offspring, provide 127 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: some kind of help in the hard job of parenting, 128 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: and offer some social compatibility. 129 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: This sounds like a farrange. 130 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 2: Honestly, the walks of psychology today know how to turn 131 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: a phrase. 132 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 3: So so yes, the walks, so psychology walks psychology walks sidewalks, 133 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 3: so some people and other animals are better at getting 134 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 3: a date than others. 135 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: As the as the quote continues. In psychology today, however, 136 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: we see the prevalence across species of flirting, and it 137 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: shows us that this idea, this concept, I would argue, 138 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: of courtship is hardwired into our genes alongside basic survival 139 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: instincts fight or flight. Now, Noel, I know you're not 140 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: the biggest avian fan. 141 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 2: I've been warming up to them. We've got a local 142 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 2: hawk and a local owl. I only I don't run 143 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 2: inside with my tail between my legs quite as quickly anymore. 144 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: I just want to point out that avians birds are 145 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: amazing at the courtship. 146 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 2: Oh dude, I mean, I think I told you. One 147 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:16,719 Speaker 2: of the reasons I've been warming up to birds is 148 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of the board game Wingspan, and 149 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 2: in that there's all these incredibly beautifully illustrated cards of 150 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 2: like every bird you can imagine. They're always adding new 151 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 2: birds to the deck, and they give you a little 152 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 2: helpful tidbit about each of these birds when you play 153 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 2: the card, and a very pleasant voice if you're playing 154 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 2: it on the switch or Mobile. We're not sponsored by 155 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 2: wing spam, but it's a great game. Or if you're 156 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: played on mobile Alabama hundred percent yeah Mobile, they say 157 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: it yonder. Yeah. I have definitely learned about, you know, 158 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: the courtship, the amazing rituals of birds by playing this game. 159 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: And the thing I think that maybe sets them apart 160 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 2: and makes them better at it is that they just 161 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 2: do it with such precision. There's no like styling on it. 162 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 2: I mean there sometimes there's certain dances that's right choreography. 163 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: But I guess what I'm getting at. Maybe this is 164 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 2: this is wrongheaded, but it just seems that it's a 165 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 2: little bit more laser focused, and it's like it's gonna happen. 166 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 2: It's gonna happen for you. If you just spin around 167 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 2: in circles and hop up and down enough and tweets 168 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 2: at the right rhythm, you're going to find a mate 169 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 2: because it is conducive to the betterment of bird kind. 170 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 2: But with humans, we get so in our heads about 171 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 2: it to your point that it just doesn't work out 172 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 2: that way every time. And maybe it's hard for the 173 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 2: birds too, but it just seems like they kind of 174 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 2: got it figured out, is all. 175 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: I'm saying, yeah, they're scope did They're locked in on 176 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: like a very specific bird. To your point, You'll never 177 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: see an owl flirting with a corvid. You'll never see 178 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: a hawk flirting with a sparrow. They know what they're about, 179 00:10:54,800 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: They've got their demographics decided, and they are existing. I 180 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: love this novel because they are existing in a rigid hierarchy, right. 181 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 2: Which we exist in too. But because of things like 182 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: social media and you know, entertainment and different things that 183 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 2: we compare ourselves to and always kind of thinking about thinking, 184 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 2: it is a little less straightforward. 185 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because of the metacognition getting in one's head. Uh. 186 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: It turns out, folks, this is a true story. Back 187 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: in the reign of Queen Victoria, a lot of human being, Yeah, 188 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 1: a lot of human beings had the same rigid hierarchy 189 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: of flirting that birds possessed today. 190 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, the Victorian area with their mannered ways. I guess 191 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about it from BBC dramas and. 192 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: Upstairs, downstairs everybody one hundred percent. 193 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 2: And it was a response to the rapid industrialization of 194 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: British society and kind of another enlightenment, you know, with 195 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:07,719 Speaker 2: knowledge and information and technology improving and spreading at exponential rates. 196 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, think about it. We have all of a sudden 197 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: as a civilization arrived at the rest of the world. 198 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: There are printing presses, there are railroads. You can send 199 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: a letter to someone that you would ordinarily never be 200 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: able to meet in person, and then you can hop 201 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: a train and go see them. You can also learn 202 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: more about other cultures. At this point, literacy is still 203 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 1: not for everyone. But if you are a person who 204 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: can read, if you are literate, then you also read 205 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: a ton of books and you want to talk about 206 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: those books with other people. This is the age of 207 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,959 Speaker 1: scientific progress. 208 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: Right right, the age of Darwin and his Origin of 209 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 2: the a on the origin of the species. 210 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: He ate everyone, folks, Jack was right. 211 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 2: He ate the tortoises, he ate the hares, he ate 212 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 2: whatever he made a note about. Apparently, Yeah, no, shout 213 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 2: out to Jack for sure. And that very important work 214 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 2: dropped in eighteen fifty nine, which also gave rise to 215 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 2: some more novel interpretations of Bible stories, non Anglican branches 216 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: of the Church, and a brand new thing on the scene, 217 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: still pretty popular today, atheism. 218 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: Go team anyway with a society of flux Queen Victoria 219 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: sought to sort of diminish or suppress this evolving tide 220 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: of scientific secular inquiry. Yeah, she was a web blanket 221 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: boo science, says the queen. She said, we need to 222 00:13:55,160 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: shore up our cultural definitions. We need traditional Christian values, purity, piety, duty. 223 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: To put that in modern terms, that means state virgin 224 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 1: until you're married. 225 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: Chased, yeah, yeah, yeah. 226 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: And piety. Do you want to talk a little bit 227 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: about that all. 228 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Victoria really was trying to impose some very rigid 229 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: traditional kind of family values. I guess, let's say, casting 230 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 2: a woman as having the duty of being chased a 231 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: woman of God, to marry a man comparable compatible with 232 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 2: Victorian morals, and of course to produce as many heirs 233 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 2: as humanly possible. Pop just popping them out. That's a 234 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 2: lot of pops. And last, of course, she died during 235 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 2: childbirth or her husband committed her to some sort of 236 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: backwards psychiatric institution for hysteria. I'm doing really hard quotation 237 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 2: fingers right now. This was not a great time for 238 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 2: women's rights, which is ironically brought on by a woman, 239 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 2: the queen. 240 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and ren if you're hearing this, I know 241 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: we're both fans of the excellent short story The Yellow Wallpaper. 242 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: Piety to respond to this piety is the idea of 243 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: religious devotion. They wanted people to be fundamentalist in duty. 244 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: Of course, like you said, Noel, is just the idea 245 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: that one is born to a specific role in society. 246 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: Oh are you a female and you happen to be 247 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: an amazing scientist? 248 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: Too bad? Yeah, yeah, right in the kitchen. 249 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, very very mean, short sighted stuff. However, as 250 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: our pal Jeff once famously said, life finds a way. 251 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 2: Jeff Goldblue not our research associate Cheff with it different Jeff, Yes, Jef, Yeah, 252 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 2: I remember that part from Jurassic Park three, The Road Home. 253 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 2: I love that. 254 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: Look the rigid public confines of Victorian society, the rules 255 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: of the road for public behavior. They could not stop 256 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: people from hanging out trying to circumvent these very narrow 257 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: scopes of society in which they were placed. 258 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 2: As T's at the top. This is an episode about 259 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 2: the moral strictures and all of these hardline rules and 260 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 2: the ways people figured out to flout them and flout 261 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 2: each other. 262 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, oh my gosh, this is so fun because 263 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: it's conspiratorial, right, people are hitting on each other in code. 264 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: It's so nuts. Victorians would still find a way to 265 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: flirt with one another and even do a little you know, 266 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: outside of school. 267 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 2: Stuff ifing yeah, right, yeah, have a little tryst, run 268 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 2: off for a little secret dalliance right in the countryside. 269 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: If two young lovers were caught flirting with each other, 270 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: they could become outcast from the society of the day. 271 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: Usually yeah, usually. By the way, this is a pretty 272 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: misogynistic hierarchy at the time, So a dude would do 273 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: something bad and then it was the woman, the female partner, 274 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 1: who was punished. So it was very high stakes when 275 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: people were flirting, and you had to be very careful, 276 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: especially if you are a pressed member of the society 277 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: at the time, a woman, a female identifying person. You 278 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: would have to speak in code or convey your messages secretly. 279 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:13,919 Speaker 1: And this is where we get to one of my 280 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: favorite parts of one of my favorite puns from your 281 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: research read Talk to the Fan, The Lost Art of 282 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: Victorian Fami language. 283 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 2: Because the face ain't listening, or it definitely is listening 284 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 2: and looking out for signs that you read my code 285 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 2: and that you want to get busy. You know, Ben, 286 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 2: I think part of the reason that Victoria means this 287 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 2: is maybe stating the obvious, but the Victorian era is 288 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 2: so romanticized is because secret love is so much more sultry, 289 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 2: you know than like out in the open love, like 290 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 2: forbidden love. You know, I only guess you when it's dangerous. Well, 291 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 2: there's so many I mean, this isn't really my wheelhouse, 292 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 2: but if I'm not mistaken, there are definitely a lot 293 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 2: of pretty, you know, sultry novelizations of this era and 294 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 2: the types of little trysts that some of these very 295 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: mannered folks would have. 296 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're their entire novels about this that are in 297 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: the Western cannon. Uh, like Silas Martyr for instance. 298 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 2: Uh. 299 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: And what I love about it is the the idea 300 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: that something as simple as one person touching the top 301 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: of another person's hand, that's like skin amax. Oh Yeah, 302 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: that's super that's that's super racy. And it's because of 303 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: the oppression women, if we're being honest, in the Victorian era, 304 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 1: people living under this reign, women couldn't like you couldn't 305 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: blow out a candle around a dude because you might, 306 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 1: you know, you might be making the wrong face, your lips. 307 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 2: A little too much. Yeah, man, I didn't I didn't 308 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 2: know this. But Wren pointed out that Victorians are who 309 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 2: kind of invented the idea of light and dark meat. 310 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: Lest they have to refer to a leg or a 311 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 2: breast and you know, get titillated or be titillated. 312 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You also can't say that you're going 313 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: to bed at the end of the night because the 314 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: if a dude hears you, they might imagine certain things 315 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: your neglige perhaps Oh my gosh, I can picture the ankle, 316 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: your dressing gown. 317 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 2: This is so gross, this is crazy. 318 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: I wish he and Pearl did a sketch about this. 319 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: They've definitely done some kind of mannered kind of you know, satires, 320 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 2: But I'm having a hard time thinking of one in particular, 321 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: and maybe I'm making it up. Maybe I'm Mandela affecting it. 322 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 2: But you know, think Romeo and Juliet. You know, the 323 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 2: idea of forbidden love. Society will not allow because you're 324 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 2: from different classes or different sides of town or different 325 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 2: you know, social groups. 326 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: Oh, do you hear the stakes escalating? You know, one 327 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: of the closest bonds be can have is the sharing 328 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: of a secret that is true. And so now we 329 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 1: have very high stakes conspiratorial communication because we don't want 330 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: to be repressed by Victorian society. This is where we 331 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 1: enter tactics like fan language. All right, let's lay it out. 332 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: Okay, So we talked about the kind of very strict 333 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 2: hierarchy which involves different classes, different income levels, and people 334 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 2: in the lower classes typically dressed a little bit more comfortably, 335 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 2: whereas women in high society had to take great pains, 336 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 2: suffer for fashion to the most extreme degrees to maintain 337 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 2: this kind of like you know, image of an hour 338 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 2: glass waste and you know, covering their faces with veils 339 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 2: sometimes and elaborate hats and umbrellas and fans. 340 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, have you ever been hot? Have you ever 341 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: found yourself in like humid weather? Allow us to introduce 342 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: you to the concept of fan. It's a it's a 343 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 1: cool thing. You can wave with your hand on your 344 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: face or your body parts to generate wind, make your 345 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: own wind that will mitigate temperature. Yes, if you haven't 346 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: heard of fans before, oh my gosh, pretty cool. 347 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 2: We're big fans of fans and it can't allow it. 348 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 2: All right, all right, all right, all right, all right. 349 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: So this this is a physical device, and the reason 350 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 1: we're giving it such a spotlight here is because it 351 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: points the observer towards the face and it needs the 352 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: hand to work. So there is this entire nonverbal nomenclature 353 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: or coded language that comes about with the use of 354 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: a fan, especially if you are a single, well to 355 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: do woman, an aristocratic person. If you want to attract 356 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: a husband of as Emily Bronte would say, quality, then 357 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: you are you are kind of bound again by your 358 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:26,959 Speaker 1: social strictures of the day. I'm gonna say it. People 359 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: were wearing a lot of clothes. 360 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 2: Oh for sure, and it was pretty unpleasant for women 361 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 2: in particular. I mean, dudes definitely wore, like, you know, 362 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 2: multiple layers of like a suit and vest and all 363 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 2: the cumbers. But for some person, but was nothing compared 364 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 2: to what women of the age had to wear. That 365 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 2: included that tightly cinched corset to give that appearance of 366 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 2: a perfect kind of hourglass figure, not to mention layers 367 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 2: on top of that, petticoats and all of that, and 368 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: then uh, these hoop skirts, a crinoline, which is like 369 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 2: a essentially these wire frames that these skirts were draped 370 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 2: around the BBL. I don't think I know what that means. 371 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 2: Brazilian butt lift. Oh, for sure, that's right. I take 372 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 2: a little bit of of a hump back there, for sure. 373 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 2: And they also had to wear like lacy gloves, and 374 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 2: they would also carry these fans when it was hotter months, 375 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 2: and there is something kind of coy about peering over 376 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 2: and gently kind of batting your fan as you make 377 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 2: you know, cutias at a eligible bachelor. Hmm. Yeah. 378 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: And these these people who are of this echelon in society, 379 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: they have to wear essentially uniforms and they're heavy. There 380 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 1: are so many layers, it's not cold all the time, 381 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: and it's restricting their mobility. For anybody who wants to 382 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: learn more about the history of fashion, please please check 383 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: out our good friend Holly Fry's work just on podcasts 384 00:24:58,560 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: and in general. 385 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a history of fashion podcast that she peed 386 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 2: for a long time called Dressed. I'm not sure if 387 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 2: it's publishing new episodes anymore, but they're all out there. 388 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: It was with two fashion historians whose names escaped me, 389 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 2: but it's it's really, really, really good, and they would 390 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: certainly talk about this stuff and depth. 391 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's exercise empathy. You are a lady of means, right, 392 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: you are single, you are in the upper echelon of 393 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: Victorian society. You have to wear all this bruhaha. And 394 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: it's it's a paid in the keyster to you know, 395 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: sit down to sit up. It's hot, there's no air conditioning. 396 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: You have to go outside for a breath of fresh air. 397 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: How do you mitigate the temperature around you? Again, we 398 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: introduce you to fan. And fan was a practical and 399 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: still is a practical way to beat the heat, but 400 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:05,199 Speaker 1: it also became a conspiratorial means of communicating whether or 401 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: not you thought someone was dapper for sure. 402 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 2: And we'll just run through a handful of them because 403 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 2: they're so sneaky. It kind of runs the gamut that 404 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 2: they are literal gestures that mean very specific things. And 405 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 2: I gotta wonder kind of this kind of stuff had 406 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 2: to evolve organically, you know, where people just sort of 407 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 2: observed and picked up on these actions. But we've got 408 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 2: a list here from an eighteen sixty six right up 409 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 2: in Castle's magazine that decodes some of these mysterious actions. 410 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 2: Carrying the fan in your right hand in front of 411 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 2: your face, for example, meant follow me, yeah, yeah, yeah. 412 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: Letting a fan folded rest on your left cheek meant 413 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: no to something. However, if you let it rest on 414 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 1: your right cheek, it meant yes. 415 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: It's like Ouiji board rules. Drawing the fan across your 416 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 2: eye kind of like that gesture I mentioned earlier, sort 417 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,360 Speaker 2: of peeking over the top of it meant you were sorry. 418 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 2: And closing the fan which meant that you would like 419 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 2: a word in private. 420 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, we've all seen tealted abby. It's also one of 421 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: the weird ones is drawing the folded fan or I 422 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: guess unfolded across the cheek means I love you. 423 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay. 424 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: But also we could do it. We could do an 425 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: entire sketch about this about fan language in the modern day, 426 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: because some of it gets so ridiculous. You put the 427 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: you put the handle of the fan to your lips. 428 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 2: Like kiss me. One of my favorites is signifying that 429 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 2: you're engaged by a quick fan blast across the Yeah, 430 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 2: if you drop the fan, you are friend zoning that 431 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 2: person intantly. 432 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're done. Drop, We're done. I'll see you on Facebook. 433 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 1: And if you shut the fan, you have changed. You 434 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 1: know this is changed. 435 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 2: Does that mean I think it's. 436 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: I think it's being diplomatic. I think I think maybe 437 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 1: shutting a fan was probably more often used to signify 438 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: the end of a conversation, is probably what was actually happening. 439 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: But let's say no, someone doesn't possess a fan. 440 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 2: Or they do and they want to just double down 441 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: and to have another avenue for their cheeky communic case. 442 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 2: They could do that with postage stamp flirtations. They were 443 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 2: like this was they would place this on a letter 444 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 2: when they sent it, so like the position of the 445 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 2: stamp would indicate why didn't they just write it in 446 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 2: the letter? 447 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: Well, it's how you slide into the d Yeah. 448 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 2: I still don't quite understand though, Like these are on letters, 449 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 2: for sure, I don't understand. 450 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a The placement of the postage stamp was 451 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: a way to bypass the fact that you are hitting 452 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: on someone who may already be part of a larger family, right. 453 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: Okay, And then and their letter might be intercepted. This 454 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 2: is sort of a between the lines kind of thing 455 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: in case somebody's suspicious or jealous wife got a hold 456 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 2: of this letter. 457 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you leave a letter to your potential paramore, 458 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: and you know that the entire family, the entire estate, 459 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: may open the letter and read it and have a 460 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: good laugh. So you want to get past that by 461 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: positioning the stamp to reveal a secret message. So the 462 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: letter itself might sound innocuous, right, but the but the 463 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: place of the stamp is a conspiratorial code. It's kind 464 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: of like hobo code. 465 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: Sure, I was thinking the same thing, and a lot 466 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 2: of these hobo code By the way, there's an episode 467 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 2: to be done on stuff that I want you to 468 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 2: know about it. I actually have a hobo code tattoo 469 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 2: on my right wrist. But they were these symbols that 470 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 2: were left by traveler, traveling folk, you know, riding the 471 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 2: rails and all of that, and into modern times actually 472 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 2: at various locations to indicate either a hospitable environment or 473 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 2: you know, something negative, maybe a sheriff that has it 474 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 2: in for traveling folk, a place that will feed you perhaps, 475 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 2: et cetera. All these little symbols and that lexicon developed 476 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 2: over time as people kind of picked up on those meanings, 477 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 2: as did these fan gestures and this kind of postage 478 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 2: stamp flirtation. So let's run through a few of these 479 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 2: as well. Upside down stamp on the top left corner 480 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 2: I love you. Yeah, same corner, but crosswise means my 481 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 2: heart is another's. 482 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, drop the f right on that one. 483 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: If you put the stamp upside down on the right corner, 484 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: it's a bad sign. It says, get out of my DMS. 485 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: I don't don't, don't write. 486 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 2: To me anymore. You're dead to me. On the flip 487 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 2: side in the middle at the right hand edge means 488 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 2: right immediately, I'm burning with desire. 489 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: Oh, people are so weird. People have been doing DMS 490 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: direct messaging way before social media. Uh, there's the friend 491 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: zone thing on the top corner at the right. That 492 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: placement of the postage stamp allegedly, according to Cassel's magazine, 493 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: meant I wish your. 494 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 2: Friendship yep, yep. Another friend zoning and the same but 495 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 2: upside down indicated that you were already engaged. So you'll 496 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 2: remember the quick brisk fanning. So these were, you know, 497 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 2: important details to be able to communicate. I guess maybe 498 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 2: kind of off trouble at the past. 499 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're really vibing. I have a girlfriend though. 500 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 2: Sorry, but that doesn't mean the flirtation for its own 501 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 2: sake isn't also fun. I think it's important to remember that, like, 502 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 2: these are not always people that are searching for their 503 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 2: life mate. They are just trying to get a little 504 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 2: extra on the side, and sometimes the flirtation itself might 505 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 2: be giving them something that they weren't getting at home. 506 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 2: You know, it doesn't have to result in, you know, 507 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: sexual activity. 508 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: Right, it doesn't have to be consummation. It's a dance, 509 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a validation is acknowledgement? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 510 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: and don't forget to stop and smell the roses. It 511 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: turns out that Victorian society was so repressive that people 512 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: found multiple means of sort of passing notes in class 513 00:32:55,320 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: and whispering to each other. Victorians of a certain socioeconomic 514 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: status had a keen interest in botany. And I love 515 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,239 Speaker 1: that we're pointing out one of my favorite sources on 516 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: the internet, the public domain review. 517 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good one. At a time when many 518 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 2: feelings were discouraged and repressed, flowers, whether since singly or 519 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 2: incomplicated arrangements, communicated the incommunicable. I always think of, you know, 520 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 2: when you have these sort of maybe tales of intrigue 521 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 2: around this era. Leaving a single red rose, you know, 522 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 2: on a bench or something as like a sign of 523 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 2: your love or even just like the scarlet pimpernel or something. 524 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 2: It couldn't be a way to communicate with actual like 525 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 2: co conspirators who are trying to bring down the government. 526 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: This is so nuts, man, because I actually have the 527 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: book public domain review as referencing the language of flowers. 528 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: I love obscure reference work totally, as the language of 529 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: flowers follows the Western symbolism of various types of flowers. 530 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: When to give a flower for what occasion? What does 531 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: it mean? It's just like fan language. I only have 532 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: this in full disclosure because I needed it for a 533 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: fantasy novel I was writing. I had to figure out 534 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 1: which flowers character gives at a pivotal moment. Anyway, I 535 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: love obscure reference works. Yeah, and this comes from a 536 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: real thing. I can't believe it, dude. For example, people 537 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:42,800 Speaker 1: would send bluebells to mean kindness, and obviously roses represented love. 538 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: Have you ever given one of your lovers a dozen roses? 539 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 2: Wow? Ben, that's very forwardive, you'd ask, Yeah, I'm blushing, 540 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 2: what's wrong with me? I'm forty one years old. I 541 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 2: don't know, man, I've never really been one for the 542 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 2: It's just a little cheesy kind of to me, it 543 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 2: feels it's a little you know, it's just kind of 544 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,240 Speaker 2: dated for a reason. Some people really like roses. Some people, 545 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 2: I think, find them a little kloying. And I think 546 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 2: I might be one of those where we are just 547 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 2: not a romantic where we you're a very romantic guys? 548 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 2: Where are we. 549 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: At with apple blossoms? This was a new one to me. 550 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 2: The apple blossom jeans and the boots with the fur nail. No, 551 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,320 Speaker 2: I didn't. Apple blossoms were meant to signify the object 552 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 2: of one's affection, and I like this one. Dahlia's. I 553 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 2: always think of the black Dahlia murders symbolized instability, which 554 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 2: tracks for that story. Yeah. Yeah. 555 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: And if you are a young guy again, this is 556 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: very scope to in. This is something the upper crust 557 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 1: is doing at this time in the Victorian age. If 558 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: you're a young guy of means and you're you know, 559 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: you're looking to get married, start your family, et cetera, 560 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:05,800 Speaker 1: continue your age, you will send an apple blossom, which 561 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: says I like you more than the other people. 562 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 2: Ibicon, So more than just an object of your affection. 563 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 2: You are sort of making a soft commitment, right, but 564 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 2: there's a there's a tear up from that where you 565 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 2: really lock in. Yeah, that is of course the red rose. Yes, yes, 566 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 2: you nailed it. 567 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: If you are super liking the object of your affection, 568 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,919 Speaker 1: as you said, Noel, you send a rose or you 569 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: send get this, a purple violet to communicate. This is 570 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: from Smithsonian Gardens. The giver's thoughts are occupied with love 571 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: about the recipient. So a step down from a rose, 572 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,760 Speaker 1: you send a purple violet, and you're just going, mmm, 573 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 1: I like. 574 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 2: You exactly, shrinking violet. That's the thing, right, isn't that 575 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 2: someone that's sort of timid? 576 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: I've heard the phrase? Yeah? The big thing is flower 577 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: language for flirting was just like the postage stamp language. 578 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: It could be used to convey unfortunate messages as well. 579 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 2: Right right. For example, if you got a yellow carnation 580 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 2: and you are a young man after sending an apple 581 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 2: bossom or one of these other you know, roses signifying 582 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 2: your commitment to your would be beloved. If you got 583 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 2: a yellow carnation back, it was you were being rejected. 584 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 2: That would be yeah, that would be devastating. And if 585 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 2: a dude in return received an ivy leaf I got, 586 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,280 Speaker 2: so there's a little difference. He was considered friend zones. Maybe, 587 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 2: so you're saying there's a chance. 588 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: You're saying there's a chance. However, if you get straw 589 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: in return in this flower code or this I guess 590 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: we should just call it this botany code, then it 591 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: means the person you are seeking to marry is interested 592 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: in going a step further. 593 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 2: It's so procedural, it's also business like, Yeah, here's it 594 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 2: is a little weird, and that step further would be 595 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 2: like marriage. Uh huh, Yeah, I guess that means there 596 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 2: probably could be opposite situations where a dude got the 597 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 2: strawbag was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm not ready for 598 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,839 Speaker 2: all that. I was hoping for a purple violet or whatever. Yeah, 599 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 2: I just in the middle of the road. Response might be. 600 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: This is all moving too fast. Let me check where 601 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: I should put and. 602 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 2: Chase this flower cut. Yes, my documents check it. Did 603 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 2: you know? Well, these are just a few. I mean, 604 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,399 Speaker 2: it gets pretty elaborate, and RN points out, like, where 605 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,280 Speaker 2: are they getting all of these different varieties of flowers. 606 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 2: It's so elaborate, but this was a time of great wealth, 607 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 2: and it also seems like these type of flowers would 608 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 2: often be, you know, baby expensive to cultivate and to 609 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 2: have just for these these messages, So you know, you 610 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 2: couldn't really communicate in flower coat if you were in 611 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 2: the lower class. You know what, I bet these weeds 612 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:10,240 Speaker 2: or something. 613 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: You know what I bet was a crazy flex sending 614 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,879 Speaker 1: someone a pineapple, because this is back of the day 615 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: when people would just rent pineapples. 616 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 2: Oh, of course, Well, I guess this was roughly in 617 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 2: that during that time. Yeah. I don't know if you've 618 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 2: been watching Severance, but there's a really funny moment in 619 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 2: one of the most recent episodes involving pineapples. So let's 620 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 2: leave it at that. But Ben, I mean, you've got 621 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,479 Speaker 2: so much more to cover. We're going to get into 622 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 2: calling cards, you know, and that's the history of that. 623 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 2: But what do you say that we take a pause 624 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 2: here and and and jump to us a second part 625 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 2: of this series for some more awesome history of flirting. 626 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, are you asking me for a second date? 627 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 2: No, I am, I forget what kind of flowers mused 628 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 2: to send you, but it's the twenty first century. We 629 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 2: can just talk about it. It's cool. We're on a podcast. 630 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,720 Speaker 2: Most Secrets here, my friend. 631 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: We can't wait for you to join us, folks in 632 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: our ongoing exploration of flirting and flirtation in the Victorian era. 633 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: Big big thanks to our super producer, mister Max Williams. 634 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: We slide in his DMS all the time. 635 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 2: Both of us. 636 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: Big big thanks to our research associate Red and Fest 637 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: Red and Fair. Big thanks of course to aj Bahama's 638 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: Jacobs the Puzzler. And I stumbled while we were recording 639 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: because I remembered a guy who's very close to my heart. 640 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: What kind of flowers do you think Jonathan Strickland aka 641 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: the Quister would send us. 642 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 2: A black rose? Something very sinister? Why is he like that? Why? 643 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 2: Just who he is? Hughes Thanks to Chris Frasciotis and 644 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 2: Eves Jeff Cotes here a spirit Alex Williams who composed 645 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 2: our theme, Max Williams, the best, Maximilian Williams. And of 646 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 2: course you've been my number one crush podcast crush. 647 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 1: Oh shucks, you say that to everyone. Thanks to you man. 648 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: Check your mail. There are some flowers for you, but 649 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: look at the stamp first. 650 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 2: I hope it's an edible arrangement. We'll see you next time, folks. 651 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 652 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.