1 00:00:15,604 --> 00:00:16,044 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:25,884 --> 00:00:29,204 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making better decisions. 3 00:00:29,284 --> 00:00:30,844 Speaker 2: I'm Maria Kanakova. 4 00:00:30,524 --> 00:00:33,764 Speaker 3: And I'm Nate Silver. What's on tap today? Maria? Maybe 5 00:00:33,764 --> 00:00:38,324 Speaker 3: a little maybe little pokey pokey poke Sorry, please hit 6 00:00:38,364 --> 00:00:38,724 Speaker 3: it up? 7 00:00:39,644 --> 00:00:42,284 Speaker 1: No, no, do not, do not. 8 00:00:43,524 --> 00:00:45,324 Speaker 3: We haven't talked about poker in a while. This is 9 00:00:45,364 --> 00:00:48,724 Speaker 3: a Saturday episode. It's supposed to be more fun, so 10 00:00:48,724 --> 00:00:50,284 Speaker 3: we're gonna talk a little bit about poker and more 11 00:00:50,324 --> 00:00:54,284 Speaker 3: particularly online poker versus live poker. I think this might 12 00:00:54,324 --> 00:00:57,164 Speaker 3: reveal more than you think about how we process information, 13 00:00:57,324 --> 00:01:00,044 Speaker 3: how our brains work. And Maria is a Sika who 14 00:01:00,044 --> 00:01:01,964 Speaker 3: still likes online poker. I do not. You'll see that 15 00:01:02,004 --> 00:01:02,884 Speaker 3: difference come out too. 16 00:01:03,164 --> 00:01:06,204 Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm excited to get started. Nate. 17 00:01:06,284 --> 00:01:18,364 Speaker 2: Let's uh, let's get into it. This past weekend was 18 00:01:18,724 --> 00:01:23,444 Speaker 2: the start of the online Bracelet series, which the World 19 00:01:23,444 --> 00:01:26,404 Speaker 2: Series of Poker has been doing for a few years now, 20 00:01:26,804 --> 00:01:32,164 Speaker 2: basically starting during COVID when bracelets were moved online when 21 00:01:32,164 --> 00:01:36,644 Speaker 2: there was no World Series of Poker live during the summer, 22 00:01:37,404 --> 00:01:40,884 Speaker 2: and it's become more and more of a thing where 23 00:01:41,204 --> 00:01:45,324 Speaker 2: these highly competitive events with you know, coveded WSOP bracelets 24 00:01:45,644 --> 00:01:48,324 Speaker 2: have moved to the Internet, and there's a lot of 25 00:01:48,364 --> 00:01:50,484 Speaker 2: we're not going to talk about kind of is this 26 00:01:50,804 --> 00:01:53,284 Speaker 2: a good thing? Is this a bad thing? We'll leave 27 00:01:53,324 --> 00:01:57,804 Speaker 2: that question alone and instead we'll talk about just in 28 00:01:57,924 --> 00:02:01,524 Speaker 2: general thoughts about playing online and playing live. 29 00:02:01,884 --> 00:02:04,524 Speaker 3: Maria, you seem to like online poker more than I. 30 00:02:04,484 --> 00:02:09,404 Speaker 2: Do, well, Nate, So you know, we do some disclosure 31 00:02:09,604 --> 00:02:12,284 Speaker 2: on the show, and as listeners of the show note, 32 00:02:12,564 --> 00:02:15,004 Speaker 2: I am an ambassador for Poker Stars. I'm a Poker 33 00:02:15,004 --> 00:02:18,524 Speaker 2: Stars team. Pro poker Stars is an online poker company, 34 00:02:18,804 --> 00:02:21,724 Speaker 2: So I have had to get used to playing online, 35 00:02:21,924 --> 00:02:24,804 Speaker 2: which is not my preferred method of playing. By the way, 36 00:02:25,044 --> 00:02:29,684 Speaker 2: I far far prefer playing live to playing online. But 37 00:02:30,644 --> 00:02:33,724 Speaker 2: I learned to play poker playing online because the beauty 38 00:02:33,724 --> 00:02:37,564 Speaker 2: of online poker is the sheer quantity of hands that 39 00:02:37,604 --> 00:02:40,684 Speaker 2: you can get in and so the experience that you 40 00:02:40,804 --> 00:02:47,084 Speaker 2: can acquire is much faster. So I used to, you know, 41 00:02:47,124 --> 00:02:49,244 Speaker 2: when I just started playing for the Biggest Bluff, I 42 00:02:49,244 --> 00:02:52,084 Speaker 2: would reverse commute to New Jersey multiple days a week 43 00:02:52,124 --> 00:02:57,164 Speaker 2: to play online because in cafes I would play. 44 00:02:56,884 --> 00:02:59,164 Speaker 3: Noan on McDonald's we talked in lat episode about how 45 00:02:59,204 --> 00:03:00,924 Speaker 3: you've never fucking been to McDonald's. 46 00:03:01,044 --> 00:03:01,284 Speaker 1: Yeah. 47 00:03:01,324 --> 00:03:05,524 Speaker 2: So no, not not out of McDonald's. But I have 48 00:03:06,804 --> 00:03:10,524 Speaker 2: definitely explored the world of online cafes that are open 49 00:03:10,644 --> 00:03:13,244 Speaker 2: late in Hoboken and Jersey City. 50 00:03:13,564 --> 00:03:14,684 Speaker 3: Do they know what you were doing? 51 00:03:15,884 --> 00:03:16,204 Speaker 1: Yes? 52 00:03:16,484 --> 00:03:18,284 Speaker 2: Yes, they knew what I was doing because I had 53 00:03:18,324 --> 00:03:20,724 Speaker 2: my laptop out and I was playing online. There was 54 00:03:20,764 --> 00:03:23,924 Speaker 2: one cafe that I started going to. The owner loved 55 00:03:23,964 --> 00:03:26,244 Speaker 2: online poker and at some point was like, can I 56 00:03:26,284 --> 00:03:28,364 Speaker 2: play a few hands? When I was playing a tournament 57 00:03:28,404 --> 00:03:30,644 Speaker 2: and I was like, uh, no, you're not allowed to 58 00:03:30,764 --> 00:03:32,764 Speaker 2: do that, but he was. 59 00:03:33,084 --> 00:03:34,204 Speaker 1: He was very excited. 60 00:03:34,404 --> 00:03:36,324 Speaker 3: Was it that you were not allowed that you thought 61 00:03:36,324 --> 00:03:36,924 Speaker 3: he was a fish? 62 00:03:37,564 --> 00:03:39,524 Speaker 2: Well, you're not allowed to have someone else play for 63 00:03:39,564 --> 00:03:41,004 Speaker 2: you on your account. 64 00:03:41,204 --> 00:03:45,084 Speaker 3: But if like phil Ivy, is he from New Jersey, Yes, 65 00:03:45,084 --> 00:03:48,044 Speaker 3: if phil Ivy on the cafe, would you let him play? 66 00:03:48,524 --> 00:03:49,764 Speaker 1: No? I would not. 67 00:03:50,284 --> 00:03:51,644 Speaker 2: My next book is about cheating. 68 00:03:51,844 --> 00:03:53,324 Speaker 3: What if phil Ivy would kick you out of his 69 00:03:53,364 --> 00:03:56,004 Speaker 3: cafe unless you unless you unless you let him play? 70 00:03:56,084 --> 00:03:57,764 Speaker 3: I would say, so it's a the best player in 71 00:03:57,764 --> 00:04:01,364 Speaker 3: the world and be you can no longer use a cafe. 72 00:04:01,444 --> 00:04:03,684 Speaker 3: I mean, I feel like, doesn't that outweigh the No. 73 00:04:03,604 --> 00:04:06,004 Speaker 2: I would say, I would say, Phil, I cannot believe 74 00:04:06,084 --> 00:04:08,804 Speaker 2: you do not value your reputation because you know, I'm 75 00:04:08,804 --> 00:04:11,244 Speaker 2: a journalist and I'm going to write about this in 76 00:04:11,284 --> 00:04:15,444 Speaker 2: my book about cheating. How phil Ivy basically said that 77 00:04:15,524 --> 00:04:18,124 Speaker 2: he wanted me to cheat And this is not a 78 00:04:18,164 --> 00:04:19,124 Speaker 2: good look for you, Phil. 79 00:04:19,444 --> 00:04:21,124 Speaker 3: So what you're saying is that when you won your 80 00:04:21,164 --> 00:04:24,524 Speaker 3: online bracelet, phil Ivy was ghosting for you, right, but 81 00:04:24,604 --> 00:04:27,244 Speaker 3: you agreed not to disclose that. 82 00:04:29,484 --> 00:04:36,244 Speaker 2: In exactly exactly so, Nate, I actually think that this 83 00:04:36,404 --> 00:04:40,804 Speaker 2: is probably one of the most djened things that you 84 00:04:40,844 --> 00:04:41,964 Speaker 2: will hear me do. 85 00:04:42,164 --> 00:04:42,364 Speaker 1: Nate. 86 00:04:43,404 --> 00:04:46,884 Speaker 2: Last weekend, so I was in Vermont for a long 87 00:04:46,924 --> 00:04:51,764 Speaker 2: weekend Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Sunday. After driving back from 88 00:04:51,884 --> 00:04:54,884 Speaker 2: Vermont and you know, listeners of the show have heard 89 00:04:54,884 --> 00:04:59,884 Speaker 2: my wasp story. After all of this happened, I went 90 00:04:59,924 --> 00:05:02,644 Speaker 2: back to Brooklyn, you know, dropped all my stuff off, 91 00:05:03,004 --> 00:05:06,004 Speaker 2: and then took the Path train to New Jersey, where 92 00:05:06,044 --> 00:05:09,604 Speaker 2: I had booked a hotel room for Sunday night to 93 00:05:09,924 --> 00:05:15,284 Speaker 2: hop into the first two events of the World Series 94 00:05:15,324 --> 00:05:19,644 Speaker 2: of Poker Online Bracelet series. So went, for the sole 95 00:05:19,724 --> 00:05:23,844 Speaker 2: reason you know, of playing these events, did that, and 96 00:05:23,884 --> 00:05:27,084 Speaker 2: then you know, went to work in the morning from 97 00:05:27,364 --> 00:05:31,324 Speaker 2: a nice hotel, HIGHTT Regency, right on the water in 98 00:05:31,404 --> 00:05:36,804 Speaker 2: Jersey City. Nice enough, great great views, Highly recommend for 99 00:05:36,844 --> 00:05:41,324 Speaker 2: online poker, stable internet connection, no no issues with geolocation, 100 00:05:41,684 --> 00:05:43,964 Speaker 2: which can be problematic when you're right on the water, 101 00:05:44,324 --> 00:05:49,164 Speaker 2: as I found out, because sometimes what ends up happening 102 00:05:49,484 --> 00:05:52,804 Speaker 2: is they pick up Wi Fi from New York and 103 00:05:53,284 --> 00:05:56,284 Speaker 2: suddenly we'll kick you off. So High Regency did not 104 00:05:56,364 --> 00:05:59,124 Speaker 2: have any of those issues. But I can't tell you 105 00:05:59,204 --> 00:06:01,644 Speaker 2: much about the hotel because I checked in, you know, 106 00:06:01,764 --> 00:06:06,804 Speaker 2: went to my room, fired up the tournaments, went to sleep, and. 107 00:06:06,924 --> 00:06:09,244 Speaker 1: Woke up and left, and that that was. 108 00:06:10,084 --> 00:06:14,324 Speaker 2: But you know, it actually made me think about so 109 00:06:14,404 --> 00:06:18,204 Speaker 2: many differences right between playing live and playing online, and 110 00:06:18,364 --> 00:06:24,484 Speaker 2: especially with series like this when it starts so incredibly late. 111 00:06:24,884 --> 00:06:28,964 Speaker 2: So for people who aren't as d Jenny, these events 112 00:06:29,004 --> 00:06:34,324 Speaker 2: start at three thirty and four thirty Vegas time Pacific time, 113 00:06:34,484 --> 00:06:38,684 Speaker 2: which means six thirty and seven thirty pm East Coast time. 114 00:06:39,364 --> 00:06:43,004 Speaker 2: So now imagine if you actually go deep in the event. 115 00:06:43,284 --> 00:06:45,724 Speaker 2: So when I won my World a series of poker 116 00:06:45,804 --> 00:06:50,084 Speaker 2: online bracelet, I was playing in Vegas and we finished 117 00:06:50,084 --> 00:06:53,964 Speaker 2: the final table. I want at like three thirty am, 118 00:06:54,044 --> 00:06:57,644 Speaker 2: which would have been six thirty am East Coast time. 119 00:06:58,204 --> 00:07:01,204 Speaker 2: So if you think about that, it's insane, right, that's 120 00:07:01,244 --> 00:07:05,004 Speaker 2: actually a crazy, crazy time to start a tournament, and 121 00:07:05,204 --> 00:07:10,004 Speaker 2: it probably freezes out a lot of people who would 122 00:07:10,084 --> 00:07:13,484 Speaker 2: have otherwise played. Like, for instance, this past Sunday, I 123 00:07:13,524 --> 00:07:15,044 Speaker 2: was like, you know what, I don't know if I'm 124 00:07:15,044 --> 00:07:18,844 Speaker 2: going to do that again because it's exhausting to do that. 125 00:07:18,964 --> 00:07:21,484 Speaker 2: So I didn't cash one of the events. I cashed 126 00:07:21,524 --> 00:07:26,124 Speaker 2: the other one, so ended up, you know, busting at 127 00:07:26,164 --> 00:07:27,164 Speaker 2: like two am. 128 00:07:27,644 --> 00:07:29,364 Speaker 1: And I was like, was it really worth. 129 00:07:29,124 --> 00:07:33,564 Speaker 2: It for just you know, a few grand to do 130 00:07:33,644 --> 00:07:42,644 Speaker 2: something like that? And you answered it. But so there 131 00:07:42,684 --> 00:07:45,164 Speaker 2: are a lot of different considerations when you're playing online 132 00:07:45,164 --> 00:07:47,724 Speaker 2: that you don't have to deal with when you're playing live. 133 00:07:48,164 --> 00:07:51,644 Speaker 2: We talked back when it was the summer and we 134 00:07:51,644 --> 00:07:54,764 Speaker 2: were playing the live World Series of Poker events. We 135 00:07:54,844 --> 00:07:58,564 Speaker 2: talked about using you know, this new software that showed 136 00:07:58,564 --> 00:08:00,884 Speaker 2: who was going to be at your table and how 137 00:08:00,924 --> 00:08:03,924 Speaker 2: you would how it gave you extra information right, and 138 00:08:03,964 --> 00:08:06,724 Speaker 2: how you could then rate the players rank them. Nate, 139 00:08:06,764 --> 00:08:09,724 Speaker 2: you had this very complicated spreadsheet which I love, and 140 00:08:09,764 --> 00:08:15,044 Speaker 2: you actually gave the players. Yeah, you had a rating scale, 141 00:08:15,244 --> 00:08:17,484 Speaker 2: so you had all this extra stuff that you normally 142 00:08:17,484 --> 00:08:22,924 Speaker 2: wouldn't have. But online there are if there are several issues. 143 00:08:23,444 --> 00:08:28,004 Speaker 2: One is people don't use their real names, right, So 144 00:08:28,604 --> 00:08:32,764 Speaker 2: there are screen names that people use. So you see this, 145 00:08:33,004 --> 00:08:35,324 Speaker 2: you know, you see the people at your table, but 146 00:08:35,644 --> 00:08:39,204 Speaker 2: you may or may not know who those people are. 147 00:08:40,364 --> 00:08:45,204 Speaker 2: People do track screen names, and there are communities of 148 00:08:45,924 --> 00:08:49,964 Speaker 2: poker players that study together that have these big spreadsheets 149 00:08:50,004 --> 00:08:53,804 Speaker 2: of people's online screen names and say, oh, this is 150 00:08:53,844 --> 00:08:56,324 Speaker 2: this person, this is this person. So then Nate, they 151 00:08:56,324 --> 00:08:58,244 Speaker 2: can do what you did during the World series because 152 00:08:58,244 --> 00:09:00,604 Speaker 2: they have the real name to go along with the 153 00:09:00,644 --> 00:09:03,724 Speaker 2: screen name. But if you're someone who's not in that community, 154 00:09:03,764 --> 00:09:06,004 Speaker 2: you might have no way of knowing, right, So you're 155 00:09:06,084 --> 00:09:11,204 Speaker 2: actually missing that whole big piece of information. And you 156 00:09:11,324 --> 00:09:14,364 Speaker 2: used to play online poker for a living. We never 157 00:09:14,404 --> 00:09:17,884 Speaker 2: really talked about your experience of doing that and how 158 00:09:17,924 --> 00:09:21,684 Speaker 2: you thought about kind of those you know, informational edges, 159 00:09:21,724 --> 00:09:28,364 Speaker 2: informational asymmetries, and how the value of data, how it 160 00:09:28,444 --> 00:09:31,884 Speaker 2: shifts between live and online. Because obviously, like live, one 161 00:09:31,924 --> 00:09:34,404 Speaker 2: of my big edges is the fact that I'm a psychologist, 162 00:09:34,764 --> 00:09:36,684 Speaker 2: Like there's and there's this wealth of data. I don't 163 00:09:36,724 --> 00:09:40,084 Speaker 2: have any of that online, but I'd love to hear 164 00:09:40,124 --> 00:09:42,484 Speaker 2: about your experience and kind of that contrast. 165 00:09:43,564 --> 00:09:48,004 Speaker 3: So when I played online, I played limit hold them primarily. 166 00:09:50,204 --> 00:09:52,884 Speaker 3: I did quite well for your period of a few years, 167 00:09:53,324 --> 00:09:59,244 Speaker 3: which I attribute not necessarily to deep study. But like, look, 168 00:09:59,244 --> 00:10:03,204 Speaker 3: poker and number one poker is a game where all 169 00:10:03,244 --> 00:10:05,084 Speaker 3: that matters for you win rate is how was your 170 00:10:05,124 --> 00:10:08,844 Speaker 3: strength relative to the players you're playing against. Right, I 171 00:10:08,884 --> 00:10:11,524 Speaker 3: can walk in the games where I'm the best player 172 00:10:11,564 --> 00:10:12,804 Speaker 3: at the tail by far. I can walk in a 173 00:10:12,804 --> 00:10:14,804 Speaker 3: game for I'm the worst player at the table by far. 174 00:10:14,884 --> 00:10:17,444 Speaker 3: I like think I'm closer to the best than the worst. Right, 175 00:10:17,804 --> 00:10:19,604 Speaker 3: the average team I'm sitting in, I think on plus ev. 176 00:10:19,884 --> 00:10:23,684 Speaker 3: But like that's what really matters. So in the poker 177 00:10:23,724 --> 00:10:27,364 Speaker 3: boom years, the moneymaker boom, the online poker boom, the 178 00:10:27,404 --> 00:10:31,844 Speaker 3: average person was quite bad. And then and then things 179 00:10:31,924 --> 00:10:35,204 Speaker 3: got tougher with party poker and other sites closed to Americans. 180 00:10:35,204 --> 00:10:39,724 Speaker 3: After the UIGEA passed in two thousand and six, a 181 00:10:39,764 --> 00:10:42,804 Speaker 3: lot of the better players, excuse me, a lot of 182 00:10:42,804 --> 00:10:45,404 Speaker 3: the worst players dried up and left the game. So, yeah, 183 00:10:45,564 --> 00:10:48,684 Speaker 3: my last six months were losing months after having felt 184 00:10:48,724 --> 00:10:51,204 Speaker 3: like it was an ATM for some period of time. However, 185 00:10:51,244 --> 00:10:55,204 Speaker 3: even then I was playing in you know, almost the 186 00:10:55,284 --> 00:10:57,804 Speaker 3: higher stakes available at that time, as far as like 187 00:10:58,004 --> 00:11:00,924 Speaker 3: as high as like one hundred two hundred dollar blinds, 188 00:11:00,924 --> 00:11:03,804 Speaker 3: which is a pretty big game for two thousand and five. Yeah, 189 00:11:04,244 --> 00:11:06,004 Speaker 3: not as big as an no limic game with those stakes, 190 00:11:06,004 --> 00:11:08,004 Speaker 3: but like it was a surreal game. I would impress 191 00:11:08,044 --> 00:11:10,964 Speaker 3: people by like eyeing in. I would like drop my 192 00:11:10,964 --> 00:11:14,204 Speaker 3: whole role down and put buying for sixty thousand dollars 193 00:11:14,244 --> 00:11:16,284 Speaker 3: just to look cool, because it's a fucking door and 194 00:11:16,364 --> 00:11:19,124 Speaker 3: it was in my twenties, right, and like, but even 195 00:11:19,164 --> 00:11:26,324 Speaker 3: then you had maybe a few dozen regulars, right, and 196 00:11:26,364 --> 00:11:29,764 Speaker 3: so like you did have some wreaths, right. I think 197 00:11:29,804 --> 00:11:32,724 Speaker 3: I like to get in like people's headspace with them 198 00:11:32,924 --> 00:11:34,644 Speaker 3: a little bit. What a lot of people do when 199 00:11:34,644 --> 00:11:38,124 Speaker 3: they play online is they will multi table, meaning playing 200 00:11:38,204 --> 00:11:39,844 Speaker 3: more than one game at once. And I would do that. 201 00:11:40,164 --> 00:11:43,124 Speaker 3: I would do that, but I would play three or 202 00:11:43,164 --> 00:11:47,244 Speaker 3: four tables as opposed to like some people literally play 203 00:11:47,764 --> 00:11:50,764 Speaker 3: eight or sixteen or twenty right where they're just playing 204 00:11:51,164 --> 00:11:54,644 Speaker 3: totally paint by numbers poker almost always playing like way 205 00:11:54,644 --> 00:11:56,684 Speaker 3: too tight, and I'd try to, like I try to 206 00:11:56,764 --> 00:11:59,324 Speaker 3: like be a little more focused on individual decisions. But like, 207 00:11:59,804 --> 00:12:01,684 Speaker 3: but you know, but like that's not the environment right now. 208 00:12:01,684 --> 00:12:06,924 Speaker 3: I mean, back then there was not RTA. RTA is 209 00:12:06,964 --> 00:12:12,124 Speaker 3: real time assistance where there are now solvers, and it's illegal, 210 00:12:12,244 --> 00:12:16,364 Speaker 3: it's illegal. And maybe I do get the props sometimes 211 00:12:16,604 --> 00:12:19,044 Speaker 3: I do play occasionally less and less and less and less, 212 00:12:19,884 --> 00:12:21,844 Speaker 3: but like I'll get the props sometimes saying prove you're 213 00:12:21,844 --> 00:12:24,404 Speaker 3: a human and not a computer. Maybe I maybe that's 214 00:12:24,404 --> 00:12:27,324 Speaker 3: a sign that I'm playing too mechanically or playing like 215 00:12:27,364 --> 00:12:27,764 Speaker 3: a solver. 216 00:12:28,124 --> 00:12:30,604 Speaker 2: Hey, Nate, I've never I've never gotten that prompt. 217 00:12:30,644 --> 00:12:32,444 Speaker 1: What does that say about my. 218 00:12:33,524 --> 00:12:37,524 Speaker 3: I don't know, But now it feels weird to say, 219 00:12:37,564 --> 00:12:40,364 Speaker 3: as like kind of a a math guy, right, you know, 220 00:12:40,644 --> 00:12:45,884 Speaker 3: I feel like my relative strengths in poker are actually 221 00:12:45,964 --> 00:12:48,124 Speaker 3: kind of like the soft skills, at least relative to 222 00:12:48,164 --> 00:12:51,724 Speaker 3: that like elite player population, right, Like, I think I 223 00:12:51,724 --> 00:12:55,244 Speaker 3: have a pretty good attitude about money. I think I 224 00:12:55,284 --> 00:12:57,084 Speaker 3: definitely am not always playing my a game. I don't 225 00:12:57,084 --> 00:12:59,644 Speaker 3: think I have super tilt problems. You know, I can 226 00:12:59,644 --> 00:13:01,484 Speaker 3: pick up not against Maybe you should forget about the 227 00:13:01,524 --> 00:13:03,964 Speaker 3: best pros, but against like amateurs, I can read players 228 00:13:04,644 --> 00:13:07,084 Speaker 3: pretty well, I can I can estimate pretty well and 229 00:13:07,884 --> 00:13:11,484 Speaker 3: piece some shit together right, and be more composed and like, 230 00:13:11,884 --> 00:13:16,004 Speaker 3: you know, online, I think those advantages are lesser number one. 231 00:13:16,044 --> 00:13:19,524 Speaker 3: And also, like I just find like, you know, when 232 00:13:19,524 --> 00:13:26,364 Speaker 3: I play poker live, there's an act of intentionality to it. Right, 233 00:13:26,364 --> 00:13:30,124 Speaker 3: It's like I decided today too, because there's no casino 234 00:13:30,244 --> 00:13:32,324 Speaker 3: within an hour and a half of me, Right, I 235 00:13:32,404 --> 00:13:37,484 Speaker 3: decided to take a trip to a casino to play 236 00:13:37,684 --> 00:13:39,884 Speaker 3: a tournament and take a week out. It'll cost me money, 237 00:13:39,884 --> 00:13:42,324 Speaker 3: it'll cost you money. You know, hopefully I'll make back 238 00:13:42,364 --> 00:13:44,164 Speaker 3: the entry fee and win. Most of the time, you don't, right, 239 00:13:44,204 --> 00:13:46,044 Speaker 3: but like, but if there's an opportunity cost there, I 240 00:13:46,044 --> 00:13:48,204 Speaker 3: could be doing something else right and like, but there's 241 00:13:48,204 --> 00:13:51,884 Speaker 3: an active intentionality there that gives me more presence. You know. 242 00:13:51,924 --> 00:13:54,284 Speaker 3: The other problem too is that kind of mentioned this earlier, Like, 243 00:13:54,484 --> 00:13:58,324 Speaker 3: because these tournaments start in the PM typically, right, or 244 00:13:58,364 --> 00:14:00,284 Speaker 3: you've just been playing a long time, and there's like 245 00:14:00,884 --> 00:14:03,124 Speaker 3: and there's fatigue because you don't get you know, live 246 00:14:03,164 --> 00:14:06,164 Speaker 3: poker is nice and frankly fairly slow until you get 247 00:14:06,164 --> 00:14:08,524 Speaker 3: to like shorthanded poker, Right, you're not playing most of 248 00:14:08,524 --> 00:14:11,604 Speaker 3: the time. You have your break for twenty minutes every 249 00:14:11,604 --> 00:14:13,964 Speaker 3: two hours, right, you have a dinner break like online, 250 00:14:14,004 --> 00:14:16,364 Speaker 3: even if you do start early, it's kind of a grind. 251 00:14:16,364 --> 00:14:18,084 Speaker 3: But like, you know, I've just had fucking times and 252 00:14:18,124 --> 00:14:22,084 Speaker 3: I'm like, Okay, I was bored tonight decided to fire 253 00:14:22,124 --> 00:14:24,684 Speaker 3: up like a fifty dollars hundred dollars tournament, right, and like, 254 00:14:25,244 --> 00:14:27,404 Speaker 3: is it really worth me staying up another two hours 255 00:14:29,364 --> 00:14:31,404 Speaker 3: to ladder up and win an extra couple hundred dollars 256 00:14:31,444 --> 00:14:33,644 Speaker 3: and expected value? Like I don't know, right, And so 257 00:14:33,724 --> 00:14:35,804 Speaker 3: you like, I find the whole thing kind of kind 258 00:14:35,804 --> 00:14:36,964 Speaker 3: of difficult. 259 00:14:42,684 --> 00:14:44,164 Speaker 1: And we'll be back right after this. 260 00:14:59,004 --> 00:15:02,524 Speaker 2: I think the lateness thing is a huge factor. I 261 00:15:02,604 --> 00:15:04,884 Speaker 2: actually think that the entire East Coast is at a 262 00:15:04,964 --> 00:15:08,604 Speaker 2: huge disadvantage to the West Coast because your cognitive function 263 00:15:09,084 --> 00:15:12,044 Speaker 2: is an not going to be as sharp, you know, 264 00:15:12,204 --> 00:15:15,564 Speaker 2: at when it's midnight for you, it's only nine pm 265 00:15:15,964 --> 00:15:18,204 Speaker 2: for the people who are playing from Las Vegas. 266 00:15:18,284 --> 00:15:19,124 Speaker 1: That's a huge difference. 267 00:15:19,204 --> 00:15:20,884 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've looked at this in the context of so 268 00:15:20,924 --> 00:15:24,364 Speaker 3: here's a little actual actionable gambling tip. Although it's probably 269 00:15:24,364 --> 00:15:26,324 Speaker 3: accounted for in the point spot, so there's maybe not 270 00:15:26,484 --> 00:15:29,284 Speaker 3: edge there. Right. We have this NFL model we've been 271 00:15:29,324 --> 00:15:31,604 Speaker 3: working on for a couple of months now, right where 272 00:15:32,204 --> 00:15:34,324 Speaker 3: literally any every NFL games is like teen twenty is 273 00:15:34,364 --> 00:15:36,044 Speaker 3: account of four and all types of stuff, all types 274 00:15:36,044 --> 00:15:36,644 Speaker 3: of fancy shit. 275 00:15:36,764 --> 00:15:36,924 Speaker 2: Right. 276 00:15:38,244 --> 00:15:42,644 Speaker 3: You know, teams playing at night when it's outside of 277 00:15:42,684 --> 00:15:45,484 Speaker 3: their time zone. So the West Coast team has a 278 00:15:45,484 --> 00:15:49,564 Speaker 3: big advantage versus an East Coast team in night games. Right, 279 00:15:49,604 --> 00:15:54,404 Speaker 3: it's about almost a full point, which is not huge huge. 280 00:15:54,604 --> 00:15:56,804 Speaker 3: That's like in the cost of NFL, where like if 281 00:15:56,804 --> 00:15:58,804 Speaker 3: you have a point edge, you will beat the point 282 00:15:58,804 --> 00:16:01,204 Speaker 3: spread on average. Right, that's pretty big. In fact, like 283 00:16:01,604 --> 00:16:05,724 Speaker 3: even when the game is on the East Coast, the 284 00:16:05,764 --> 00:16:10,364 Speaker 3: West Coast team can still be more fatigue or the 285 00:16:10,404 --> 00:16:12,644 Speaker 3: East Coast team rather can still be worft because they're 286 00:16:12,644 --> 00:16:15,084 Speaker 3: playing you know, you still have the West Coast team 287 00:16:15,564 --> 00:16:18,244 Speaker 3: playing at five pm locally till eight instead of eight 288 00:16:18,564 --> 00:16:20,764 Speaker 3: until eleven when you play most NFL games in the afternoon, 289 00:16:20,844 --> 00:16:22,884 Speaker 3: practice in the afternoon, et cetera. Right, a bit of 290 00:16:22,924 --> 00:16:25,724 Speaker 3: a reverse effect, by the way, where the West Coast 291 00:16:25,764 --> 00:16:29,324 Speaker 3: teams do a little bit worse in games that sort 292 00:16:29,404 --> 00:16:32,164 Speaker 3: up one pm Eastern ten am West coast time. But 293 00:16:32,204 --> 00:16:34,724 Speaker 3: it's a little asymmetric, right, people, I'm an id L, 294 00:16:34,764 --> 00:16:36,884 Speaker 3: so maybe I'm an exception, right, But like most people 295 00:16:37,644 --> 00:16:40,284 Speaker 3: stretch a little better in the morning if they have 296 00:16:40,324 --> 00:16:42,884 Speaker 3: to get up earlier than in the even at least 297 00:16:42,884 --> 00:16:45,364 Speaker 3: for physical types of activity. Right, So like, yeah, that 298 00:16:45,484 --> 00:16:48,604 Speaker 3: type of stuff like does matter quite a bit. 299 00:16:49,004 --> 00:16:51,844 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I mean, for sure, there's a lot of 300 00:16:51,964 --> 00:16:55,964 Speaker 2: data on our cognitive function and time of day. And 301 00:16:56,804 --> 00:17:00,284 Speaker 2: let me just say that there are two factors that 302 00:17:00,484 --> 00:17:08,084 Speaker 2: are that really matter. One is just the actual light outside, right, 303 00:17:08,164 --> 00:17:12,564 Speaker 2: and how it affects are body circadian rhythms, because as 304 00:17:12,604 --> 00:17:16,764 Speaker 2: we evolved, light cues really matter and kind of make 305 00:17:16,804 --> 00:17:19,524 Speaker 2: a difference. And there are certain cues towards morning that 306 00:17:19,524 --> 00:17:21,604 Speaker 2: tell us to wake up, certain ques towards evening that 307 00:17:21,604 --> 00:17:25,724 Speaker 2: tell us to go to sleep. But your chronotype, so Nate, 308 00:17:25,804 --> 00:17:28,644 Speaker 2: you said you're a night owl. Your chronotype, that's what 309 00:17:28,724 --> 00:17:35,004 Speaker 2: that is, right, your own internal circadian rhythm that also matters. 310 00:17:35,004 --> 00:17:37,564 Speaker 2: So there are people who are who have an earlier 311 00:17:37,644 --> 00:17:40,084 Speaker 2: chronotype and so they actually function better in the mornings. 312 00:17:40,084 --> 00:17:42,764 Speaker 2: There are people who have a later chronotype. They function 313 00:17:42,884 --> 00:17:47,724 Speaker 2: better later. It's easier in modern society for early birds 314 00:17:47,764 --> 00:17:53,164 Speaker 2: to function because their chronotype is aligned more aligned right 315 00:17:53,244 --> 00:17:57,444 Speaker 2: with modern demands and also actually more aligned with the 316 00:17:58,364 --> 00:18:00,684 Speaker 2: with light. And I'm guessing there are no data on 317 00:18:01,524 --> 00:18:04,404 Speaker 2: this night because this is not the way that professional 318 00:18:04,404 --> 00:18:08,204 Speaker 2: sports work. But I'm assuming that the advantage will go 319 00:18:08,324 --> 00:18:10,564 Speaker 2: away if the West team has been on the East 320 00:18:10,644 --> 00:18:13,684 Speaker 2: coast for two weeks. We could look at but I 321 00:18:13,724 --> 00:18:15,924 Speaker 2: don't think that ever happens, right, I don't know. 322 00:18:16,204 --> 00:18:19,204 Speaker 3: I think in l teams would generally fly. But yeah, 323 00:18:19,244 --> 00:18:21,004 Speaker 3: I mean all the sports science stuff is getting better. 324 00:18:21,004 --> 00:18:23,604 Speaker 3: Home field advantage is generally declining, right, because they're like, yeah, 325 00:18:23,604 --> 00:18:26,564 Speaker 3: you want to show up in that environment a couple 326 00:18:26,644 --> 00:18:29,244 Speaker 3: of days beforehand, for sure. Yeah, I mean you're thinking 327 00:18:29,244 --> 00:18:29,764 Speaker 3: about on them. 328 00:18:29,644 --> 00:18:32,964 Speaker 2: A couple of days, but not two weeks, and it 329 00:18:33,004 --> 00:18:34,724 Speaker 2: takes a while for your rhythms to reset. 330 00:18:34,804 --> 00:18:36,804 Speaker 3: I mean, if you're trained for like as I you know, 331 00:18:36,844 --> 00:18:38,764 Speaker 3: the past several summers played the World Series for at 332 00:18:38,804 --> 00:18:40,644 Speaker 3: least a couple of weeks, right, you can you do 333 00:18:40,724 --> 00:18:43,764 Speaker 3: get training right. One of the advice people sudvice I 334 00:18:43,844 --> 00:18:45,964 Speaker 3: give is like, if you're playing, if you really care 335 00:18:45,964 --> 00:18:47,524 Speaker 3: about the main event in the World Series, which if 336 00:18:47,564 --> 00:18:50,884 Speaker 3: you love poker, you you probably should, right, Like, don't 337 00:18:50,884 --> 00:18:52,724 Speaker 3: have that be your first tournament. I mean, you want 338 00:18:52,724 --> 00:18:54,244 Speaker 3: to get in some reps. You want to kind of 339 00:18:54,244 --> 00:18:56,884 Speaker 3: know where the bathrooms are, literally, I mean, you know, 340 00:18:57,164 --> 00:18:59,564 Speaker 3: all that stuff. All that stuff matters. I Mean, one 341 00:18:59,564 --> 00:19:03,444 Speaker 3: thing I noticed is like I have an uncanny recollection 342 00:19:04,244 --> 00:19:10,044 Speaker 3: for live hands they played weeks, months, years ago, you know, 343 00:19:10,644 --> 00:19:12,764 Speaker 3: down to the color of you know, what suit of 344 00:19:12,764 --> 00:19:14,964 Speaker 3: the cards were, you know, Ace five of diamonds, even 345 00:19:14,964 --> 00:19:17,924 Speaker 3: though it might not matter or or whatever else, right, 346 00:19:18,124 --> 00:19:20,284 Speaker 3: the color of the chips or how But like I 347 00:19:20,524 --> 00:19:22,884 Speaker 3: you know, online I'm like, I think I played at 348 00:19:22,964 --> 00:19:26,404 Speaker 3: quads versus full house hand last night there or something 349 00:19:26,444 --> 00:19:28,204 Speaker 3: like that, right, I just don't know. I don't have 350 00:19:28,244 --> 00:19:30,044 Speaker 3: the tactile like recall. 351 00:19:30,164 --> 00:19:30,324 Speaker 1: Yeah. 352 00:19:30,444 --> 00:19:32,404 Speaker 2: No, I mean, I'm sure that people who just play 353 00:19:32,444 --> 00:19:37,284 Speaker 2: online all the time, it becomes there probably is different 354 00:19:37,324 --> 00:19:40,724 Speaker 2: our brain architecture that is involved, because that's the where 355 00:19:40,724 --> 00:19:44,124 Speaker 2: our brains work right there. They're flexible and they do 356 00:19:44,204 --> 00:19:48,004 Speaker 2: kind of change according to how you're using them. And 357 00:19:48,044 --> 00:19:52,044 Speaker 2: so I'm assuming it's for someone who's an full time 358 00:19:52,124 --> 00:19:55,604 Speaker 2: online player. It's probably not the case. But One of 359 00:19:55,644 --> 00:19:58,364 Speaker 2: the things you said, Nate that really resonates that there's 360 00:19:58,444 --> 00:20:04,964 Speaker 2: so much science behind this is that our brain does process, retain, 361 00:20:06,244 --> 00:20:14,284 Speaker 2: and just work through information much much better when it's physical, 362 00:20:14,644 --> 00:20:18,484 Speaker 2: when we're actually doing it, when we're learning by doing 363 00:20:18,804 --> 00:20:22,244 Speaker 2: and not by you know, doing by pressing a button. 364 00:20:22,564 --> 00:20:25,284 Speaker 2: So work that I think is actually kind of related. 365 00:20:25,324 --> 00:20:28,084 Speaker 2: I hadn't thought about this until until now, but I 366 00:20:28,084 --> 00:20:31,644 Speaker 2: think that this is quite relevant. There's a ton of work, 367 00:20:31,684 --> 00:20:35,244 Speaker 2: and this research started, you know, probably several decades ago, 368 00:20:35,284 --> 00:20:38,964 Speaker 2: and it's only gotten more and more powerful in the 369 00:20:39,004 --> 00:20:43,324 Speaker 2: sense that replicated bigger studies. So there's a lot of 370 00:20:43,324 --> 00:20:46,604 Speaker 2: work that shows that the single best way of taking 371 00:20:46,604 --> 00:20:49,204 Speaker 2: notes right retaining information is to do it by hand, 372 00:20:49,564 --> 00:20:53,524 Speaker 2: to actually physically write, and that there's a huge difference 373 00:20:53,564 --> 00:20:56,404 Speaker 2: between taking notes by hand and typing on a computer. 374 00:20:56,844 --> 00:21:01,004 Speaker 2: And there are multiple reasons for this. One of them 375 00:21:01,084 --> 00:21:04,084 Speaker 2: is that there is this connection between you know, the 376 00:21:04,204 --> 00:21:07,404 Speaker 2: hand physically going through these motions and the brain that 377 00:21:07,484 --> 00:21:11,364 Speaker 2: strengthens the wiring. The other thing is that you don't 378 00:21:11,884 --> 00:21:14,524 Speaker 2: write as quickly as you type, so you already have 379 00:21:14,564 --> 00:21:17,884 Speaker 2: to process the information to know what's important enough to 380 00:21:18,164 --> 00:21:20,284 Speaker 2: write down. How do I write it down, how do 381 00:21:20,324 --> 00:21:22,164 Speaker 2: I take the different themes from it? How do I 382 00:21:22,204 --> 00:21:25,564 Speaker 2: actually distill this? And so you're not just passively listening. 383 00:21:25,844 --> 00:21:28,884 Speaker 2: You have to actively do this, whereas if you're typing, 384 00:21:28,964 --> 00:21:32,404 Speaker 2: you can basically type everything, but you retain that information 385 00:21:32,884 --> 00:21:35,524 Speaker 2: a lot worse. So this made me think that with 386 00:21:35,644 --> 00:21:39,404 Speaker 2: online poker there's actually a similar effect going on where 387 00:21:39,724 --> 00:21:42,204 Speaker 2: when it's live and also the way that our brain 388 00:21:42,324 --> 00:21:46,644 Speaker 2: retains information and encodes information, the more points of encoding 389 00:21:46,684 --> 00:21:49,364 Speaker 2: you can have, the better. So if you have like 390 00:21:49,604 --> 00:21:53,684 Speaker 2: a memory where you have you remember, oh, these were 391 00:21:53,684 --> 00:21:56,044 Speaker 2: the colors, right, these were the smells. This was what 392 00:21:56,124 --> 00:21:58,844 Speaker 2: I just had for you know, if you can encode 393 00:21:59,044 --> 00:22:01,684 Speaker 2: in a multisensory way, it's going to be much much 394 00:22:01,684 --> 00:22:04,284 Speaker 2: more powerful, much more lasting. You're going to take a 395 00:22:04,284 --> 00:22:07,204 Speaker 2: lot more from it than if you just do kind 396 00:22:07,244 --> 00:22:10,164 Speaker 2: of a one note type of thing. And when you're 397 00:22:10,164 --> 00:22:12,844 Speaker 2: playing live poker, you have that right because you are 398 00:22:12,884 --> 00:22:15,324 Speaker 2: in a multisensor, You're in the real world, you are 399 00:22:15,364 --> 00:22:19,284 Speaker 2: in an environment with people. There are dynamics, you can see, looks, 400 00:22:19,804 --> 00:22:23,804 Speaker 2: you know, it smells. Unfortunately, there are a lot of 401 00:22:23,884 --> 00:22:27,284 Speaker 2: things that are going on that will help you process 402 00:22:27,364 --> 00:22:30,644 Speaker 2: retain and actually kind of learn from this, whereas online 403 00:22:30,684 --> 00:22:32,604 Speaker 2: it's just buttons and it's just a screen in front 404 00:22:32,644 --> 00:22:35,324 Speaker 2: of you, and our brain just does not process information 405 00:22:35,404 --> 00:22:37,004 Speaker 2: well that way, So I think that there is a 406 00:22:37,084 --> 00:22:37,924 Speaker 2: huge disconnect. 407 00:22:38,124 --> 00:22:43,724 Speaker 3: It's also from a strategy standpoint, like more points of estimation, right, 408 00:22:43,764 --> 00:22:46,004 Speaker 3: you just have more information that you're looking at. Yeah, 409 00:22:47,004 --> 00:22:50,084 Speaker 3: and like to me, I think my strength as poker 410 00:22:50,124 --> 00:22:54,604 Speaker 3: player in some ways are like triangulating different points of information. Right. 411 00:22:55,404 --> 00:22:59,444 Speaker 3: Not the best gto a player, not the best live talesperson. 412 00:23:00,444 --> 00:23:02,524 Speaker 3: You don't have the most poker experience. But if you're 413 00:23:02,524 --> 00:23:05,764 Speaker 3: a center of ten in all those categories, then I 414 00:23:05,804 --> 00:23:10,204 Speaker 3: feel like there's some added value there, especially in environments 415 00:23:10,204 --> 00:23:12,724 Speaker 3: where you're late in a tournament, or it's an unusual setting, 416 00:23:12,884 --> 00:23:15,364 Speaker 3: or this a usual player, or something's happening right, and 417 00:23:15,404 --> 00:23:17,484 Speaker 3: you kind of like are good at making like snap 418 00:23:17,564 --> 00:23:20,164 Speaker 3: estimates quickly and like adapting to that and like and 419 00:23:20,204 --> 00:23:24,564 Speaker 3: those skills all go away. You can kind of be 420 00:23:24,604 --> 00:23:26,284 Speaker 3: more I don't know how you put it. You can 421 00:23:26,364 --> 00:23:28,844 Speaker 3: kind of be more like specter me about playing online. 422 00:23:28,924 --> 00:23:29,044 Speaker 1: Right. 423 00:23:29,044 --> 00:23:31,084 Speaker 3: You just have to focus on, like on like certain 424 00:23:31,484 --> 00:23:35,684 Speaker 3: things right obsessively, and you can block out other things, 425 00:23:35,724 --> 00:23:41,084 Speaker 3: whereas I like kind of the elements of surprise and 426 00:23:41,884 --> 00:23:44,804 Speaker 3: unusual elements to some extent. Right, that's where my like 427 00:23:45,284 --> 00:23:48,004 Speaker 3: life experience as I get into my you know, mid 428 00:23:48,044 --> 00:23:54,564 Speaker 3: to late forties, starts to matter more potentially. And we'll 429 00:23:54,564 --> 00:23:55,644 Speaker 3: be right back after this. 430 00:23:55,644 --> 00:24:13,724 Speaker 2: Break finally, to kind of wrap this up, i'd love 431 00:24:14,604 --> 00:24:17,884 Speaker 2: your opinion. So you know, I was playing when I 432 00:24:17,924 --> 00:24:20,284 Speaker 2: played these New Jersey events, it was the first time 433 00:24:20,324 --> 00:24:24,324 Speaker 2: i'd actually played on this new New Jersey client. So 434 00:24:24,364 --> 00:24:26,604 Speaker 2: I made a new screen name no one had ever 435 00:24:26,604 --> 00:24:28,604 Speaker 2: seen before, so no one knew who I was. I'm 436 00:24:28,604 --> 00:24:30,604 Speaker 2: not going to say what it is. I want to 437 00:24:30,644 --> 00:24:34,004 Speaker 2: preserve that information for as long as possible. But on 438 00:24:34,044 --> 00:24:37,124 Speaker 2: the other hand, I had zero notes. Like my Nevada account, 439 00:24:37,484 --> 00:24:39,284 Speaker 2: I actually know who a lot of the players are 440 00:24:39,644 --> 00:24:42,364 Speaker 2: and like I have notes on them, and here I 441 00:24:42,404 --> 00:24:45,564 Speaker 2: had none. Right, I actually was starting from a fresh 442 00:24:45,564 --> 00:24:48,404 Speaker 2: slate because even the names that I recognized, because it's 443 00:24:48,404 --> 00:24:50,964 Speaker 2: the same player pool now it's it's one player pool. 444 00:24:51,164 --> 00:24:53,244 Speaker 2: So I recognized that I'd played with some of them, 445 00:24:53,244 --> 00:24:57,084 Speaker 2: but I didn't remember right who it was because that 446 00:24:57,284 --> 00:24:59,644 Speaker 2: was on my Nevada account, which I couldn't sign into 447 00:24:59,964 --> 00:25:01,804 Speaker 2: when I was playing in New Jersey. It's not like 448 00:25:01,844 --> 00:25:04,444 Speaker 2: my notes transferred from one account to the other. And 449 00:25:04,524 --> 00:25:06,084 Speaker 2: so I was playing. One of the events I was 450 00:25:06,084 --> 00:25:08,844 Speaker 2: playing was a six max, which means for people who 451 00:25:08,844 --> 00:25:11,764 Speaker 2: don't play poke, it's six players. So it's more shorthanded, 452 00:25:11,804 --> 00:25:14,364 Speaker 2: you're playing more hands, it's more action. And so I 453 00:25:14,444 --> 00:25:16,324 Speaker 2: was torn. I was like, should I be really focused 454 00:25:16,364 --> 00:25:18,884 Speaker 2: on the table, paying attention to, you know, betsizing and 455 00:25:18,924 --> 00:25:21,684 Speaker 2: what people are doing, or should I frantically be googling 456 00:25:22,084 --> 00:25:24,724 Speaker 2: these screen names to figure out who these people are 457 00:25:25,044 --> 00:25:28,324 Speaker 2: and trying to find out some information? And am I 458 00:25:28,444 --> 00:25:32,684 Speaker 2: you know, basically, how do I how do I value 459 00:25:32,684 --> 00:25:35,284 Speaker 2: that right? Because I know that there's some people who 460 00:25:35,324 --> 00:25:38,604 Speaker 2: have that information by virtue of having played, and I'm 461 00:25:39,164 --> 00:25:43,644 Speaker 2: at a disadvantage. But I'm also disadvantaging myself by looking 462 00:25:43,644 --> 00:25:45,644 Speaker 2: it up while playing and trying to process all of 463 00:25:45,644 --> 00:25:49,124 Speaker 2: this other stuff. And so I was torn. Right, So 464 00:25:49,164 --> 00:25:51,884 Speaker 2: I'm actually curious to know what your thoughts are. Since 465 00:25:51,924 --> 00:25:55,004 Speaker 2: we've talked about this in Live poker, it's a slightly 466 00:25:55,004 --> 00:25:57,164 Speaker 2: different calculus when you're in a situation like that. 467 00:25:57,524 --> 00:25:59,684 Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, I think in general, Look, I got to 468 00:25:59,684 --> 00:26:02,484 Speaker 3: have other World Chairs of Poker, where you go in 469 00:26:02,764 --> 00:26:04,564 Speaker 3: and you spend the first ten minutes kind of looking 470 00:26:04,604 --> 00:26:07,244 Speaker 3: people up, right, you know, I think there's always a 471 00:26:07,324 --> 00:26:12,124 Speaker 3: question about how explicit you want your thought process to be, 472 00:26:12,164 --> 00:26:15,084 Speaker 3: including things I take notes about your hands versus like 473 00:26:15,164 --> 00:26:19,644 Speaker 3: quote unquote playing in flow, right, you know, every now 474 00:26:19,644 --> 00:26:21,324 Speaker 3: and then maybe every fourth or fifth session. I I'm 475 00:26:21,324 --> 00:26:22,684 Speaker 3: just gonna write down every hand I play today, I 476 00:26:22,684 --> 00:26:25,244 Speaker 3: look at with my coach later for my own gratification. 477 00:26:25,524 --> 00:26:26,804 Speaker 3: I think you can make you play better too. You 478 00:26:26,804 --> 00:26:28,804 Speaker 3: have like a little bit of permanent record for yourself, right, 479 00:26:28,844 --> 00:26:32,964 Speaker 3: But there's time when like, look, now we're running fairly deep, 480 00:26:33,084 --> 00:26:35,884 Speaker 3: or there's a mule dynamic at the table, or people 481 00:26:35,884 --> 00:26:38,684 Speaker 3: are in conversation and the conversations giving me more information 482 00:26:38,764 --> 00:26:40,564 Speaker 3: than you know. So I think it's important to like 483 00:26:40,564 --> 00:26:42,084 Speaker 3: be able to play in flow. And it's also like 484 00:26:42,164 --> 00:26:45,084 Speaker 3: kind of like stressful, right, But I don't know. Look, 485 00:26:45,124 --> 00:26:48,204 Speaker 3: I'm not taking a very professional attitude when I play 486 00:26:48,764 --> 00:26:51,964 Speaker 3: online poker necessarily, right, I'm looking at it as like recreation, 487 00:26:52,444 --> 00:26:56,684 Speaker 3: whereas with a live poker then I take it quite seriously. Right, 488 00:26:56,964 --> 00:27:01,844 Speaker 3: I think information overkill can be a detriment. But again, 489 00:27:01,884 --> 00:27:03,484 Speaker 3: it's a very different fucking skill. It's like you're in 490 00:27:03,524 --> 00:27:07,524 Speaker 3: air traffic controller or something, right, And yeah, I mean, 491 00:27:07,564 --> 00:27:09,404 Speaker 3: you know, I think the best player online place isn't 492 00:27:09,484 --> 00:27:11,044 Speaker 3: They're like, yeah, I might not have player reads when 493 00:27:11,084 --> 00:27:14,644 Speaker 3: I have population reads. I know that the average player 494 00:27:15,004 --> 00:27:18,604 Speaker 3: doesn't check rays often enough when there are three flush 495 00:27:18,644 --> 00:27:21,044 Speaker 3: cards on the board, or when they do, it's never 496 00:27:21,164 --> 00:27:23,204 Speaker 3: a bluff kind of thing, right, Like that type of 497 00:27:23,284 --> 00:27:28,524 Speaker 3: mass data mining is probably yeah, very helpful, I would imagine, right. 498 00:27:29,044 --> 00:27:32,444 Speaker 2: Yep, no, absolutely, And yeah, in game, I made the 499 00:27:32,524 --> 00:27:36,084 Speaker 2: decision that so I told you I was playing two 500 00:27:36,124 --> 00:27:39,604 Speaker 2: bracelet events. One was a mystery Bounty which was full table, 501 00:27:39,764 --> 00:27:42,404 Speaker 2: and one was six max, which was a higher buy 502 00:27:42,484 --> 00:27:44,684 Speaker 2: and it was a one thousand dollars buy and thankfully 503 00:27:44,764 --> 00:27:48,564 Speaker 2: that was the one I catched in. So so it 504 00:27:48,684 --> 00:27:51,924 Speaker 2: was this, you know, one K six max, and I 505 00:27:52,044 --> 00:27:53,964 Speaker 2: made the decision that I would try to look up 506 00:27:53,964 --> 00:27:56,764 Speaker 2: the players at my six MACS tables, but not at 507 00:27:56,844 --> 00:28:00,364 Speaker 2: the mystery bounty because Mystery bounty first more players, but 508 00:28:00,524 --> 00:28:04,644 Speaker 2: secondly more population tendencies, right, because it's a mystery bounty format, 509 00:28:04,724 --> 00:28:06,724 Speaker 2: so people are doing things like try to build up 510 00:28:06,844 --> 00:28:09,804 Speaker 2: big stacks it's a smaller buy, and so you can 511 00:28:09,884 --> 00:28:14,884 Speaker 2: make some sort of generalizations right about how people are playing. 512 00:28:15,164 --> 00:28:17,604 Speaker 2: But then, Nate, I got incredibly frustrated because I spent 513 00:28:17,724 --> 00:28:20,404 Speaker 2: this time, you know, noting all of them, my six macs, 514 00:28:20,444 --> 00:28:22,204 Speaker 2: and then I get moved to a new table, and 515 00:28:22,364 --> 00:28:25,924 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you know that the strategy that 516 00:28:26,044 --> 00:28:27,764 Speaker 2: you described for the World series where you spend the 517 00:28:27,804 --> 00:28:30,324 Speaker 2: first ten minutes doesn't work online because you might be 518 00:28:30,484 --> 00:28:32,084 Speaker 2: getting moved. You might be at the same table, you 519 00:28:32,164 --> 00:28:34,084 Speaker 2: might get lucky and be at the same table for 520 00:28:34,124 --> 00:28:36,284 Speaker 2: two hours, but you might get moved every ten minutes. 521 00:28:36,564 --> 00:28:39,364 Speaker 2: And it's incredibly frustrating. And I did feel like when 522 00:28:39,404 --> 00:28:41,564 Speaker 2: I was looking things up, I was missing hands and 523 00:28:41,644 --> 00:28:44,444 Speaker 2: missing some information and maybe it is more important to 524 00:28:44,564 --> 00:28:47,244 Speaker 2: just focus on Okay, this person seems to be you know, 525 00:28:47,364 --> 00:28:50,524 Speaker 2: three bedding too much or or or or whatever it is, 526 00:28:50,764 --> 00:28:53,484 Speaker 2: and this isn't an important thing. We're talking about kind 527 00:28:53,524 --> 00:28:58,084 Speaker 2: of the importance of information, But there's also psychologically you 528 00:28:58,204 --> 00:29:03,044 Speaker 2: can get information overload and you have to actually figure out, 529 00:29:03,204 --> 00:29:06,364 Speaker 2: like how do I prioritize and wait this information and 530 00:29:06,444 --> 00:29:08,044 Speaker 2: what information is the most valuable? 531 00:29:08,524 --> 00:29:10,484 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, we did play a pandemic 532 00:29:10,604 --> 00:29:13,884 Speaker 3: game online but with a fixed player pool where half 533 00:29:13,924 --> 00:29:16,404 Speaker 3: of the people are on zoom, right, and that's very different. 534 00:29:16,644 --> 00:29:16,764 Speaker 1: You know. 535 00:29:16,884 --> 00:29:19,764 Speaker 3: Look, I think poker is a much more fun game 536 00:29:19,884 --> 00:29:22,164 Speaker 3: when you have the dynamic of playing repeatedly against the 537 00:29:22,244 --> 00:29:24,884 Speaker 3: same opponents. Right. That can be true in a World 538 00:29:24,884 --> 00:29:26,924 Speaker 3: Series poker event where you're there from noon to midnight. 539 00:29:27,004 --> 00:29:29,964 Speaker 3: You know what I mean, you actually develop some long 540 00:29:30,124 --> 00:29:33,564 Speaker 3: term equilibriums potentially, right, And if you're switching table all 541 00:29:33,604 --> 00:29:35,244 Speaker 3: the time, you don't get that. But look, Maria, I'm 542 00:29:35,244 --> 00:29:41,284 Speaker 3: going to have you close. Let's say that I moved 543 00:29:41,364 --> 00:29:45,004 Speaker 3: to a country where there's more acts to online poker 544 00:29:45,044 --> 00:29:49,324 Speaker 3: and no cash live poker, right, no live poker. What 545 00:29:49,444 --> 00:29:51,644 Speaker 3: would your three tips be? Because you're better at this 546 00:29:51,724 --> 00:29:55,164 Speaker 3: than me for forgetting or two tips even? What are 547 00:29:55,164 --> 00:29:58,844 Speaker 3: your one to three tips for improving as an online player? 548 00:30:00,964 --> 00:30:04,364 Speaker 2: I mean, the reason I started off by talking about 549 00:30:04,404 --> 00:30:09,084 Speaker 2: the schedules, I think that that is actually incredibly important 550 00:30:09,524 --> 00:30:13,684 Speaker 2: that you should try to look at events and schedules 551 00:30:13,964 --> 00:30:17,844 Speaker 2: that will be more conducive to your sleep schedule and 552 00:30:17,964 --> 00:30:22,404 Speaker 2: when you're sharper cognitively. So I know people who don't 553 00:30:22,484 --> 00:30:24,964 Speaker 2: you know who live in the United States. When it 554 00:30:25,044 --> 00:30:28,004 Speaker 2: comes for big series like w Coop which just happened, 555 00:30:28,044 --> 00:30:31,724 Speaker 2: which was is one of Poker Star's kind of signature series, 556 00:30:32,164 --> 00:30:35,204 Speaker 2: they leave the country to play those series and they 557 00:30:35,324 --> 00:30:38,484 Speaker 2: actually game it to figure out, you know, where should 558 00:30:38,484 --> 00:30:40,884 Speaker 2: I be, which country should I be, which time zone 559 00:30:40,884 --> 00:30:43,284 Speaker 2: should I be in, so that the schedules are best 560 00:30:43,604 --> 00:30:46,364 Speaker 2: for my performance. So I think that that's important and 561 00:30:46,484 --> 00:30:50,124 Speaker 2: kind of knowing that about yourself and not playing a 562 00:30:50,204 --> 00:30:53,884 Speaker 2: schedule that is going to be somewhere where you cannot 563 00:30:54,004 --> 00:30:57,644 Speaker 2: perform at peak performance. And related to that, I think 564 00:30:57,644 --> 00:30:59,444 Speaker 2: there are lots of people who would disagree with me 565 00:30:59,844 --> 00:31:02,244 Speaker 2: on this who are online players, but I would actually 566 00:31:02,924 --> 00:31:06,404 Speaker 2: say limit multi tabling. I think it's more important to 567 00:31:06,844 --> 00:31:12,924 Speaker 2: focus on one, two, max three, you know, tables, but 568 00:31:13,044 --> 00:31:16,404 Speaker 2: your decision quality. I see some of some players I 569 00:31:16,524 --> 00:31:20,164 Speaker 2: really admire. So you know, Patrick Leonard Pads who constantly 570 00:31:20,444 --> 00:31:23,524 Speaker 2: posts on social media about his hands, and I love him. 571 00:31:23,564 --> 00:31:27,204 Speaker 2: I took you know, I took his course at run 572 00:31:27,324 --> 00:31:30,204 Speaker 2: at Once Poker. You know, I think he has absolutely 573 00:31:30,244 --> 00:31:33,004 Speaker 2: great content. He's an amazing player. But when I see 574 00:31:33,084 --> 00:31:35,524 Speaker 2: his computer screen like it, you know, it gives me 575 00:31:35,604 --> 00:31:39,444 Speaker 2: a heart attack. Like he's playing you know, ten, eleven, twelve, 576 00:31:40,164 --> 00:31:42,804 Speaker 2: all of these. He has this huge multi table setup, 577 00:31:43,284 --> 00:31:46,844 Speaker 2: and it just to me, if you're trying to improve, 578 00:31:48,684 --> 00:31:51,204 Speaker 2: quantity in that case does not trump quality and you 579 00:31:51,364 --> 00:31:53,564 Speaker 2: can't give as much focus too. 580 00:31:53,884 --> 00:31:57,924 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a weird thing in some ways to say, like, uh, 581 00:31:59,044 --> 00:32:01,844 Speaker 3: I mean, because your edges in online poker, most forms 582 00:32:01,844 --> 00:32:05,124 Speaker 3: of poker, but especially online poker, are like are very small, 583 00:32:05,404 --> 00:32:07,604 Speaker 3: you know what I mean, And it doesn't take very 584 00:32:07,724 --> 00:32:11,524 Speaker 3: much to like send you into break even or negative. 585 00:32:11,644 --> 00:32:14,564 Speaker 3: Right if you're giving away x amount of dollars per 586 00:32:14,644 --> 00:32:17,364 Speaker 3: hour in rake and x amount of dollars to vary 587 00:32:17,444 --> 00:32:19,884 Speaker 3: in some bad luck, right then like you know, you go, 588 00:32:20,244 --> 00:32:22,764 Speaker 3: you make one more mistake for one hundred hands, and 589 00:32:22,884 --> 00:32:25,964 Speaker 3: you might be a losing player, right, So, like, yeah, 590 00:32:26,044 --> 00:32:29,324 Speaker 3: it just seems weird to me that, Like, I mean, 591 00:32:29,444 --> 00:32:31,044 Speaker 3: unless you were in the kind of poka thing days, 592 00:32:31,084 --> 00:32:34,244 Speaker 3: we can play very mechanically, right. I think I'm much 593 00:32:34,324 --> 00:32:38,084 Speaker 3: better when I focus on one to sometimes two decisions 594 00:32:38,644 --> 00:32:39,204 Speaker 3: at a time. 595 00:32:39,364 --> 00:32:41,804 Speaker 2: I don't know, so, so yeah, that would be my 596 00:32:41,884 --> 00:32:43,564 Speaker 2: piece of advice number two. And I think that that 597 00:32:43,804 --> 00:32:46,244 Speaker 2: actually goes hand in hand with how our brain works. 598 00:32:46,284 --> 00:32:49,204 Speaker 2: That our brains cannot multitask, and it's very difficult for 599 00:32:49,284 --> 00:32:52,164 Speaker 2: us to process all of this information. We're never processing 600 00:32:52,244 --> 00:32:55,404 Speaker 2: it at the same time. We're just you know, serially 601 00:32:55,484 --> 00:32:58,884 Speaker 2: task switching. That's bad, that's cognitively depleting. That's going to 602 00:32:58,924 --> 00:33:01,004 Speaker 2: actually make us even more tired by the end of 603 00:33:01,084 --> 00:33:03,564 Speaker 2: the session. And then the third one day would go 604 00:33:03,644 --> 00:33:05,244 Speaker 2: back to kind of what we were talking about with 605 00:33:05,364 --> 00:33:08,724 Speaker 2: information and notes, I would say, focus on the quality 606 00:33:08,764 --> 00:33:11,044 Speaker 2: of your notes and if you can, Like when I 607 00:33:11,084 --> 00:33:12,964 Speaker 2: play live, I take notes by hand, and I think 608 00:33:13,004 --> 00:33:15,444 Speaker 2: that that's sometimes I do it on my phone because 609 00:33:15,444 --> 00:33:18,124 Speaker 2: I don't always have a notebook, But when I do 610 00:33:18,244 --> 00:33:21,764 Speaker 2: it by hand, there's something really fun and interesting about that. 611 00:33:23,084 --> 00:33:24,324 Speaker 3: Do you do you have good handwriting? 612 00:33:24,844 --> 00:33:27,284 Speaker 2: I have legible handwriting. It can be good if I 613 00:33:27,404 --> 00:33:30,124 Speaker 2: but when I'm when I'm writing quickly, it's not pretty. 614 00:33:30,204 --> 00:33:33,844 Speaker 2: But you could read it, which is important. And but 615 00:33:33,964 --> 00:33:35,644 Speaker 2: I'm used to writing by hand. I write all of 616 00:33:35,684 --> 00:33:38,404 Speaker 2: my drafts by hand when I'm even my books. 617 00:33:38,924 --> 00:33:40,724 Speaker 3: So I didn't know that about you. 618 00:33:40,844 --> 00:33:41,764 Speaker 1: Yes, you didn't know. 619 00:33:42,564 --> 00:33:45,444 Speaker 3: Yes, with a fucking canon paper what? 620 00:33:46,044 --> 00:33:51,724 Speaker 1: Yes, this can be another episode night. 621 00:33:53,564 --> 00:33:55,964 Speaker 3: What I would I'm going to give it a thousand 622 00:33:56,044 --> 00:33:56,604 Speaker 3: winning against that. 623 00:33:57,284 --> 00:34:02,324 Speaker 2: So take take good notes and actually readview hands so 624 00:34:02,444 --> 00:34:04,884 Speaker 2: that you can you can learn from your sessions and 625 00:34:05,004 --> 00:34:10,644 Speaker 2: have them be something where you're you're actually actively learning information. Yes, Nate, 626 00:34:10,724 --> 00:34:15,844 Speaker 2: I have notebooks filled with drafts, and I type obviously too, 627 00:34:16,324 --> 00:34:20,044 Speaker 2: and I don't like literally write every single word, but yeah, 628 00:34:20,084 --> 00:34:23,124 Speaker 2: I write tons by hand, and like the biggest bluff, 629 00:34:23,124 --> 00:34:24,684 Speaker 2: I think the first draft of that whole book was 630 00:34:24,684 --> 00:34:25,364 Speaker 2: written by hand. 631 00:34:26,044 --> 00:34:27,084 Speaker 3: It's just so much slower. 632 00:34:27,284 --> 00:34:31,484 Speaker 2: Yeah, so much slower, which gives you more time to process, 633 00:34:31,804 --> 00:34:33,364 Speaker 2: and also when you type it up, because then I 634 00:34:33,444 --> 00:34:35,724 Speaker 2: type it up after it's edit number one. 635 00:34:35,764 --> 00:34:38,844 Speaker 3: I'm processing up here. I'm processing up here. The typing 636 00:34:39,044 --> 00:34:40,364 Speaker 3: is just the last step. 637 00:34:42,004 --> 00:34:43,244 Speaker 1: Well, here we go with that. 638 00:34:43,484 --> 00:34:48,324 Speaker 2: With that confession, we will leave our listeners for this weekend. 639 00:34:48,884 --> 00:34:51,924 Speaker 2: So Nate, maybe maybe we can Maybe you and I 640 00:34:52,004 --> 00:34:55,004 Speaker 2: can plan a trip to New Jersey to play online 641 00:34:55,044 --> 00:34:56,724 Speaker 2: poker for a day, or maybe we don't. 642 00:34:56,924 --> 00:34:58,644 Speaker 3: Some good what do they have there, Taylor? I think 643 00:34:58,684 --> 00:35:02,044 Speaker 3: we can find Italian food, Yes, some Sri Lankan and 644 00:35:02,084 --> 00:35:02,604 Speaker 3: shade over there. 645 00:35:02,724 --> 00:35:04,444 Speaker 2: Let's do it, Let's do it, let's have let's have 646 00:35:04,564 --> 00:35:06,284 Speaker 2: dinner and play some poker. 647 00:35:06,364 --> 00:35:08,684 Speaker 3: Okay deal, phil Ivey, You're invited. 648 00:35:08,724 --> 00:35:10,244 Speaker 1: If you're in New Jersey, borrow. 649 00:35:12,764 --> 00:35:12,924 Speaker 3: Tell. 650 00:35:15,764 --> 00:35:18,644 Speaker 2: It'll be fun. You Me and Phil Let's do it. 651 00:35:25,564 --> 00:35:27,324 Speaker 2: Let us know what you think of the show. Reach 652 00:35:27,404 --> 00:35:30,604 Speaker 2: out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot Fm. 653 00:35:31,284 --> 00:35:34,284 Speaker 2: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova. 654 00:35:34,004 --> 00:35:36,764 Speaker 3: And by me Nate Silver. The show was a Cool 655 00:35:36,764 --> 00:35:40,724 Speaker 3: production of Pushin Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced 656 00:35:40,764 --> 00:35:45,084 Speaker 3: by Isaac Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya gerwit Lydia, 657 00:35:45,204 --> 00:35:48,084 Speaker 3: Jean Kott and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our 658 00:35:48,124 --> 00:35:51,884 Speaker 3: executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Bruger. 659 00:35:52,244 --> 00:35:54,444 Speaker 2: If you like the show, please rate and review us 660 00:35:54,484 --> 00:35:57,124 Speaker 2: so other people can find us too, But once again, 661 00:35:57,284 --> 00:35:59,084 Speaker 2: only if you like us. We don't want those bad 662 00:35:59,124 --> 00:35:59,804 Speaker 2: reviews out there. 663 00:36:00,444 --> 00:36:01,244 Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in.