Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology.
Speaker 2: Before we begin the episode, I just want to let
Speaker 2: you all know that this episode will include discussions of sex,
Speaker 2: including sexual assault and sexual trauma. So if this topic
Speaker 2: is one that is particularly upsetting for you, please feel
Speaker 2: free to stop listening now. This episode will still be
Speaker 2: here in a week, a month, a year, so just
Speaker 2: consider your current mental headspace and your ability to listen
Speaker 2: to stories and advice about these themes. There will be
Speaker 2: resources in the episode description if needed. Hello everybody, Welcome
Speaker 2: back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners,
Speaker 2: old listeners. Wherever you are in the world, it is
Speaker 2: so great to have you here. Back for another episode,
Speaker 2: Back for another December guest episode, and we'd break down
Speaker 2: the psychology of our twenties. When I was thinking about
Speaker 2: who I wanted to invite on this December and what
Speaker 2: I wanted to discuss, I thought a lot about a
Speaker 2: DM that I received from a listener asking me to
Speaker 2: talk about sexual confidence, specifically how to move past shame
Speaker 2: from your past and feel like your pleasure is something
Speaker 2: that is important and that you can advocate for. And
Speaker 2: it was a really amazing question, one that we've really
Speaker 2: never answered before on the podcast, despite definitely being an
Speaker 2: important theme in our twenties, So I wanted to talk
Speaker 2: about it today. How can we enjoy the sex we're
Speaker 2: having despite shame from the past. How can we be
Speaker 2: more confident? How can we really know what we are
Speaker 2: after So much about sex comes down to psychology and
Speaker 2: our mental state and how we're influenced by emotional wounds, attachment,
Speaker 2: past memories, attitudes not just towards sex, towards ourselves. And
Speaker 2: today we have on an amazing guest who has a
Speaker 2: deep expertise in all of these topics, Doctor Emily Jamia.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Psychology of your Twenties.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Gemma. I'm so thrilled to
Speaker 3: be here. And can I just say I wish that
Speaker 3: this podcast had existed when I was in my twenties,
Speaker 3: because you have so many great episodes with so much information,
Speaker 3: So I am so thrilled to be a part of it.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. That's that nice little compliment to
Speaker 2: start out the episode. I really appreciate that. Can you
Speaker 2: briefly introduce your work and yourself and what you do?
Speaker 4: Sure?
Speaker 3: So I am a sex and relationship therapist. I am
Speaker 3: based in Houston, Texas. In addition to my clinical practice,
Speaker 3: I do a lot of public speaking.
Speaker 4: I just released a book.
Speaker 3: In November called Anatomy of Desire, Five Secrets to create
Speaker 3: connection and cultivate passions.
Speaker 4: Be sure to check that out.
Speaker 3: And you know, as much as possible, I just try
Speaker 3: to get the word out wherever I can, to whomever
Speaker 3: I can. So there's so much to say about what
Speaker 3: makes sex great and what we can do to experience that,
Speaker 3: and so I just love, you know, taking as many
Speaker 3: opportunities that I can.
Speaker 2: Like this, Yeah, we're really really excited to have you on.
Speaker 2: And it's a bit of a it's a bit of
Speaker 2: a deep, vulnerable topic. So I was like, we need
Speaker 2: an expert to discuss this because sexual shame is something
Speaker 2: that I think a lot of us actually have, but
Speaker 2: not many of us have the proper words to talk about.
Speaker 2: And I really want to talk about I really want
Speaker 2: to discuss the various ways that shame actually shows up, right,
Speaker 2: because it's not just one type of experience. What have
Speaker 2: you tended to find in your practice and your work
Speaker 2: are the biggest sources of sexual shame for people not
Speaker 2: just in their twenties but to out there life.
Speaker 3: I think we have to start by defining sexual shame
Speaker 3: because it is such a big term that, to your point,
Speaker 3: can show up and manifest itself in so many different ways.
Speaker 4: I really love Noel Clark's definition of sexual shame.
Speaker 3: She is she did pioneering research on the topic and
Speaker 3: actually won a presidential award, so I'd like to share
Speaker 3: her definition because it is the best. So sexual shame
Speaker 3: is a visceral feeling of humiliation and disgust for one's
Speaker 3: own body and identity as a sexual being. It is
Speaker 3: a belief of being abnormal, inferior, and unworthy. This feeling
Speaker 3: can be internalized but also manifests in our interpersonal relationships,
Speaker 3: having a negative impact on trust, communication, and physical and
Speaker 3: emotional intimacy. Sexual shame develops across the lifespan, in interactions
Speaker 3: in interpersonal relationships, one's culture and society, and subsequent critical
Speaker 3: self appraisal. There's also a fear of uncertainty with one's
Speaker 3: power or right to make decisions, including safety decisions related
Speaker 3: to sexual encounters, along with an internalized judgment about one's
Speaker 3: own sexual desire.
Speaker 2: A lot.
Speaker 3: There's a lot packed into that definition, and that is
Speaker 3: because sexual shame is slimy, it is sticky. It comes
Speaker 3: from all different places and can kind of work its
Speaker 3: way into different nooks and crannies within the psyche, within
Speaker 3: the body, within one's thoughts, feelings. You know, here in
Speaker 3: the US, where I'm based, I would say the majority
Speaker 3: of the shame I treat comes from kind of oppressive
Speaker 3: or rigid religious institutions that you know, people grow up
Speaker 3: hearing the message that sex is wrong, sex is bad,
Speaker 3: save it for someone you love, which is just very confusing.
Speaker 3: Why would you want to save something bad for someone
Speaker 3: you love? And so that alone creates a lot of
Speaker 3: kind of incongruence in feelings. There's also not we don't
Speaker 3: have great sex education in our school system. So you know,
Speaker 3: information is power. The more you know, the more comfortable
Speaker 3: you are. Sex is one of those things that you know,
Speaker 3: a lot of parents and schools just don't give kids
Speaker 3: an instruction manual for you know, you would never put
Speaker 3: a kid behind the wheel of a car before talking
Speaker 3: to them about some you know, basic rules of the road,
Speaker 3: but for some reason, a lot of people have this
Speaker 3: idea that sex is this quote unquote natural thing, and
Speaker 3: for all intentsive purposes, it is, but we still need
Speaker 3: information about it.
Speaker 4: You know, I see sexual.
Speaker 3: Shame pop up because of, of course, the obvious things
Speaker 3: like sexual trauma. You know, I see it because of
Speaker 3: emotional trauma, family of origin trauma, you know, the messages
Speaker 3: we internalize about our body, about our ability or our
Speaker 3: worthiness of being loved, our ability to love. All of
Speaker 3: that has the potential to contribute to feelings of shame
Speaker 3: and unworthiness, and.
Speaker 2: Then of course sexuality as well, and like you know,
Speaker 2: and also sometimes even people write into me feeling that
Speaker 2: they have sexual shame for not having sex. So it's
Speaker 2: just like a very complicated thing where it's like, Okay,
Speaker 2: you I feel ashamed for having sex. I feel ashamed
Speaker 2: when I have sex. I feel ashamed for not having sex.
Speaker 2: It's like a past, present future. Every single person seems
Speaker 2: to be involved in this because of as you said,
Speaker 2: what seems to be quite a social and cultural phenomena.
Speaker 2: And that's really my next question is what are the
Speaker 2: social but also the emotional roots of this shame so
Speaker 2: how does it kind of take hold?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, first of all, I'm so glad you brought
Speaker 3: that up about the shame of not having sex, because
Speaker 3: it's interesting, I think, particularly for your listeners people in
Speaker 3: their twenties. You know, this demographic holds the most sexually
Speaker 3: expansive views in modern history. And so sometimes if people
Speaker 3: are maybe choosing to be monogamous.
Speaker 4: Or not very kinky or.
Speaker 3: You know, you name it, sometimes they can be shamed
Speaker 3: for that as well. And so, you know, really what
Speaker 3: it's about is accepting everyone, you know, no matter where
Speaker 3: they choose to fall, and you know, respecting their right
Speaker 3: to make that decision for themselves.
Speaker 2: And so, really, when we talk about the experience of
Speaker 2: sexual shame and how that looks, what are some of
Speaker 2: the ways that that shows up emotionally for us? What
Speaker 2: are some of the ways that we might be able
Speaker 2: to recognize it in ourselves.
Speaker 3: People who are carrying shame often describe feeling kind of
Speaker 3: small during sex or in general. They may feel like
Speaker 3: they have difficulty asserting their wants and needs. They may
Speaker 3: feel that they don't have a voice. And it's not
Speaker 3: just emotional, it can be physical too. I mean, it
Speaker 3: can you know, I treat a lot of women who
Speaker 3: experience pain with intercourse because the shame that they've internalized
Speaker 3: around sex is so profound that it causes their pelvic
Speaker 3: floor muscles to tighten up, you know, in a way
Speaker 3: that's out of their control. And so some of these
Speaker 3: women are unable to have intercourse because the pelvic floor
Speaker 3: muscles are kind of clamping shut. It can manifest itself
Speaker 3: in thoughts as well, feeling feelings of you know, I'm
Speaker 3: not worthy enough, I'm not good enough, I don't deserve
Speaker 3: sexual pleasure. I don't feel that I have sexual autonomy.
Speaker 3: I don't feel like my sexual desires or needs are
Speaker 3: important or worthy.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: It can show up in all different ways, mental, emotional,
Speaker 3: and physical.
Speaker 2: I really like that you brought up the physical side
Speaker 2: of this as well, because we think about shame is
Speaker 2: something that's very cognitive, very emotional, as we said, something
Speaker 2: that impacts us in the mind, not always realizing that
Speaker 2: of course, the mind and the body are very, very
Speaker 2: very like they're the same thing. It makes me really yeah,
Speaker 2: you can't separate them. And now, trauma, shame, really intense
Speaker 2: emotions always show up in the body, in muscle tension,
Speaker 2: in you know, a suppressed immune system in stain, in
Speaker 2: chronic pain, and as you said, like with shame showing
Speaker 2: up in like help, what was it like pelvic flow contractions, yes,
Speaker 2: which is just and spasms, which is like very very interesting.
Speaker 2: It's very important I think to note that it's that
Speaker 2: your sexual shame is not something that is only going
Speaker 2: to be It's not just in your mind. It's something
Speaker 2: that's very real and very tangible. And when we've experienced
Speaker 2: it for a long time, how does that impact our
Speaker 2: ability to connect with others and maybe not just like intimately,
Speaker 2: but emotionally as well. Do you see that have you
Speaker 2: seen in your practice at the shame sometimes even starts
Speaker 2: to extend beyond sex.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean I very rarely distinguish sex from
Speaker 3: you know, emotional connection, because the two are so inextricably
Speaker 3: linked in my mind. So, people who are carrying shame
Speaker 3: can enter into a pattern of unhealthy relationships, maybe because
Speaker 3: they just don't believe that they are worthy of love
Speaker 3: that you know, can be expressed healthy and is multidirectional.
Speaker 3: They may over rely on sex to feel affirmed or
Speaker 3: validated in their relationship, and that can be kind of
Speaker 3: a pleasure inhibitor. They may kind of tune out during
Speaker 3: sex and dissociate, which is also a big pleasure inhibitor.
Speaker 3: And so, you know, I think it's really important for
Speaker 3: people to pay very close attention to the sensations they're
Speaker 3: experiencing in their body when they are sexual. You know,
Speaker 3: are you experiencing a tightness in your chest? Shame oftentimes
Speaker 3: shows up in the gut. You know, we'll get kind
Speaker 3: of a pit in our stomach, or a feeling of nausea,
Speaker 3: that's that like feeling of disgust. And so it's important
Speaker 3: if you're not experiencing pleasure during sex, what sensations are
Speaker 3: you experiencing? Just beginning by identifying them and naming them
Speaker 3: is a really great first step in mindfulness which can
Speaker 3: help begin the process of moving them out.
Speaker 2: I really want to focus on something you just said, actually,
Speaker 2: which was two things, which was over relying on sex
Speaker 2: in a relationship and feeling like you're zoning out when
Speaker 2: you're having sex. Maybe focusing on that first one. Why
Speaker 2: do people because obviously when we think sexual shame, we
Speaker 2: think wanting to avoid sex, right and wanting and having
Speaker 2: such negative attitudes towards it that it doesn't have an
Speaker 2: active role in your life. But what is this overreliance
Speaker 2: on in a relationship?
Speaker 3: So that stems from a place of an internalized message
Speaker 3: that you have to have sex or be sexual for
Speaker 3: someone else rather than for yourself or as part of
Speaker 3: you know, a more mutual, relational connected experience. So what
Speaker 3: happens is you kind of take yourself out of the equation.
Speaker 3: And people who do this can have sex that's very performative.
Speaker 3: You know, they may do things that they don't necessarily
Speaker 3: like because they think doing so will please their partner
Speaker 3: and make their partner, you know, more likely to stay
Speaker 3: with them. And it can kind of fill an emotional
Speaker 3: void temporarily in the moment because you know, theoretically we
Speaker 3: feel seen when we're naked in bed with the person.
Speaker 4: But if that.
Speaker 3: Feeling of intimacy, that emotional intimacy isn't going both ways,
Speaker 3: and if it's just to fill someone else's cup because
Speaker 3: doing so feels good, that feeling is not going to last.
Speaker 3: It's going to end up, you know, kind of leaving
Speaker 3: you empty at the end of the day.
Speaker 2: And I can also imagine how to put such a
Speaker 2: strain on the relationship because you know, you're having sets
Speaker 2: when you don't want to maybe you want to to
Speaker 2: please them. So it's like a set secondary want, right,
Speaker 2: It's not the primary want of wanting to have sex,
Speaker 2: it's the secondary one. And I'm sure that actually leads
Speaker 2: to a lot of resentment as well.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean when you continuously put the
Speaker 3: needs of other people over your own, eventually it does
Speaker 3: build up your anger and resentment and ultimately drops your
Speaker 3: self esteem even more. Yeah, you've taken yourself out of
Speaker 3: the equation.
Speaker 2: So if someone is dealing with that and they're like, okay, well, actually,
Speaker 2: what I'm finding is I am just saying yes to
Speaker 2: how oh I'm offering sex, even I'm offering sex, which
Speaker 2: I'm sure is a big thing because you know, I
Speaker 2: know that's what my partner really wants, and I actually
Speaker 2: don't really want it, but I want to make them happy,
Speaker 2: and I'm feeling so numb when we have sex. I'm
Speaker 2: actually not even enjoying this, Like I'm not not enjoying it,
Speaker 2: but I'm not feeling anything. How would you recommend people
Speaker 2: address that, Is it to take sex off the table
Speaker 2: or how would you go about that.
Speaker 4: Extent?
Speaker 3: I think it's really helpful. You know, there's always the
Speaker 3: question do you address the emotional stuff first or do
Speaker 3: you address the sexual stuff first? And you know, most
Speaker 3: people say, well, you have to dress the emotional stuff
Speaker 3: first or eltz, you're not going to be able to
Speaker 3: heal the sexual stuff.
Speaker 4: And I take a little bit of a different approach.
Speaker 3: Like I said earlier, I don't really separate sex and emotion,
Speaker 3: And so, you know, for people who might be struggling
Speaker 3: with this, I'll have them take really small baby steps
Speaker 3: and work their way up so they're kind of rounding
Speaker 3: the bases again. That may look like, you know, spending
Speaker 3: some time cuddling with your partner, maybe even with your
Speaker 3: clothes on, seeing how it feels to accept like a
Speaker 3: massage or a caress from your partner without the expectation
Speaker 3: of doing anything back to them, and noticing, you know,
Speaker 3: what's happening in that moment. Am I fighting the urge
Speaker 3: to surrender and relax and just enjoy this moment for myself?
Speaker 3: Or am I kind of tensing up my mind or
Speaker 3: my thoughts wandering, is my mind kind of zoning out,
Speaker 3: just noticing what's happening in that moment and continuing to
Speaker 3: kind of repeat that several times until you start to
Speaker 3: at a minimum, experience it more neutrally, and hopefully until
Speaker 3: you start to have more positive feelings about the experience
Speaker 3: and then starting to work your way into you know,
Speaker 3: more and more sex acts if you will, that kind
Speaker 3: of progress things along, just depending on what your comfort
Speaker 3: level is. Now you have to have a partner who's
Speaker 3: willing to help you through this process. You know, there's
Speaker 3: a lot of healing that can happen within oneself individually,
Speaker 3: but so much of our healing happens in relation to
Speaker 3: other people. And it's not uncommon at all for people
Speaker 3: who are holding on to shame, like I said, to
Speaker 3: kind of get into unhealthy relationship patterns. And you know,
Speaker 3: I wouldn't recommend doing what I just described with someone
Speaker 3: who you know is toxic or unhealthy for whatever reason.
Speaker 3: So it may mean that you start this process with
Speaker 3: a new relationship partner once you have had a bit
Speaker 3: more time to establish kind of some emotional safety and
Speaker 3: trust and take your time.
Speaker 2: I really like that what you just said there that
Speaker 2: a lot of healing does happen in relation to others,
Speaker 2: and perhaps it's a good sign that if you're with
Speaker 2: someone who is like, no, I'm not going to respect
Speaker 2: this complete reversal about intimate lives in this complete return
Speaker 2: to first base second base, Like, how is that going
Speaker 2: to be in twenty years? Yeah, none of this will
Speaker 2: ever be healed. I think if something doesn't change, and
Speaker 2: it might change within the relationship, or the relationship might
Speaker 2: be the thing that needs to change, you know what.
Speaker 3: I mean precisely, if someone's not willing to take that
Speaker 3: walk with you hand in hand, then you know that's
Speaker 3: a big red flag.
Speaker 2: I want to move on to how we can unlearn
Speaker 2: sexual shame by ourselves, So without a partner, as single people,
Speaker 2: maybe as someone who's never even had sex, or as
Speaker 2: you know, whatever it is your situation is. If you've
Speaker 2: found in the past that you're entering intimate situations and
Speaker 2: just being like, okay, like my priorities who are out
Speaker 2: the window, I'm going to do whatever they want to do,
Speaker 2: or I just feel disgusting after this, or whatever it is,
Speaker 2: how do we unlearn that as a single person or
Speaker 2: as a solo person.
Speaker 3: Yeah, such a great question. I'm going to give y'all
Speaker 3: some really good tools. I say y'all because I'm in Texas.
Speaker 2: I love it I was like.
Speaker 3: So, the first thing you have to know is that
Speaker 3: the sexual shame you have is not yours to carry.
Speaker 3: It was put on you by either another individual, by
Speaker 3: a culture, by a religious institution, by implicit or explicit
Speaker 3: negative messages about sex, and you because your human have
Speaker 3: internalized it as your own. But the first step is
Speaker 3: recognizing that it does not belong to you. That's number one.
Speaker 3: Number two, you want to identify what the negative thoughts
Speaker 3: are that you have about your body, about desire, about
Speaker 3: asserting your needs, about voicing your preferences, and begin the
Speaker 3: process of replacing them with the thoughts that you would
Speaker 3: like to have.
Speaker 4: So, if you hold on to the belief.
Speaker 3: Like my body is not worthy of pleasure, first ask
Speaker 3: yourself where that belief came from, and then flip it
Speaker 3: into my body was hardwired for pleasure, and then start
Speaker 3: doing things that allow you the experience of pleasure. Maybe
Speaker 3: it starts with non sexual things, maybe you know, enjoying
Speaker 3: a you know, really great piece of chocolate or hot tea,
Speaker 3: or you know, savoring little pleasures in life, just to
Speaker 3: kind of start those pathways and getting them to fire,
Speaker 3: and then gradually working your way, you know, into the
Speaker 3: intimate realm. I also really love somatic work for this.
Speaker 3: You know, as we talked about before, shame is stored
Speaker 3: in the body. So I will literally have people, like,
Speaker 3: let's say they are experiencing shame because of negative messages
Speaker 3: they got from the church, or maybe even because of
Speaker 3: a trauma that they experienced. I will have them write
Speaker 3: a letter to whoever that person or entity was that
Speaker 3: made them feel that way. Is not a letter that
Speaker 3: they will ever give to that person, but I will
Speaker 3: have them imagine that person sitting in an empty chair
Speaker 3: across from them and.
Speaker 4: Reading the letter aloud.
Speaker 3: And then I'll have them hold something like a issue
Speaker 3: box over the area of their body where they're folding
Speaker 3: shame and like pull the tissues out one by one.
Speaker 3: It can kind of like give people the feeling of
Speaker 3: pulling the emotion off or even getting like a towel
Speaker 3: and like wiping away the area and the body where
Speaker 3: that shame is. Those kinds of exercises can actually be
Speaker 3: really profound and transformative for people. And so just as
Speaker 3: you know, the healing begins, you know, I think within
Speaker 3: the individual. Those are a few things that I really
Speaker 3: like and recommend to clients.
Speaker 2: Sematic therapy and sematic healing probably one of my favorite,
Speaker 2: my favorite forms of healing. Yeah, it's really up there
Speaker 2: because it's like, again, if trauma and emotions are stored
Speaker 2: in the body, how could we think that, you know,
Speaker 2: moving beyond them or processing them or regulating them is
Speaker 2: not going to include the body.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, it's short.
Speaker 2: Oh exactly, We're going to take a quick break, and
Speaker 2: then we're going to return with doctor Emily Jimia to
Speaker 2: talk about sexual confidence and how we can feel good
Speaker 2: about ourselves. We are back with doctor Emily Jima and
Speaker 2: I want to talk about sexual confidence because sexual shame
Speaker 2: is one thing, and but then we might also not
Speaker 2: have any sexual shame, but just not feel like we
Speaker 2: really know what we're doing, or we're not feeling amazing
Speaker 2: in our bodies. And I think a big part of
Speaker 2: sex is just feeling good about yourself. You know, I
Speaker 2: don't want to have sex with my partner or go
Speaker 2: on dates or even look for a sexual partner if
Speaker 2: I don't feel good and if I don't have sexual confidence.
Speaker 2: So how is this something that we can build without
Speaker 2: necessarily just having more sex? Yeah?
Speaker 4: I love this.
Speaker 3: You know, when people come in with a sexual issue
Speaker 3: or kind of ask them where they feel like they
Speaker 3: fall on a scale of negative ten to positive ten,
Speaker 3: where negative ten is like holy hell, and everyone do
Speaker 3: that again, and positive ten is like sewing and from
Speaker 3: the shandeliers.
Speaker 4: So we've talked so far about how.
Speaker 3: To move out the shame and hopefully gotten people to
Speaker 3: a place of neutrality. But this is like the fun part,
Speaker 3: Like how do we start building the positive feelings and
Speaker 3: sensations that we want to experience so that we can
Speaker 3: you know, explore and experience our full sexual and erotic potential.
Speaker 3: Once you have hopefully relearned some thoughts or changed some
Speaker 3: beliefs that you may hold. I think it's really helpful
Speaker 3: to talk to other people who maybe are in your
Speaker 3: circle who are.
Speaker 4: More sexually confident.
Speaker 3: You know, we feed off each other's energy, and people
Speaker 3: who are holding shame, like I said before, oftentimes don't
Speaker 3: feel like they have much of a voice. And so,
Speaker 3: you know, hopefully at this point in the game, people
Speaker 3: are starting to feel more comfortable with the idea at
Speaker 3: least of great sex. Talking to a friend, you know,
Speaker 3: find the Samantha in your group. I don't know if
Speaker 3: your listeners watch sex in the city, or if like
Speaker 3: they're too young for that, but they definitely okay. So,
Speaker 3: you know, find the friend who you know has kind
Speaker 3: of an unabashed, you know, feeling about her sexual her
Speaker 3: sexuality or his sexuality, and and ask them what that's
Speaker 3: like for them, and you will see them start to
Speaker 3: light up. You will see their posture open up, you
Speaker 3: will see them sit a little taller, and ideally that
Speaker 3: will kind of invite your body to do the same.
Speaker 3: We have mirror neurons in our brain, so when one
Speaker 3: person you know, for example, describes what it's like to
Speaker 3: eat a warm chocolate chip cookie, our brains, if looked
Speaker 3: at under an MRI, can light up as if we're
Speaker 3: the ones experiencing eating the cookie. So talking to people
Speaker 3: who feel really great about their sexuality can be a
Speaker 3: really simple, easy way to just begin getting a sense
Speaker 3: of what it's like to have some of those feelings
Speaker 3: within your own body. I also think we need to
Speaker 3: spend more time naked. You know, you cannot expect to
Speaker 3: feel totally comfortable and open with your body in the
Speaker 3: presence of another person if you can't do so yourself.
Speaker 3: So I will have people you know slowly undressed in
Speaker 3: front of the mirror and you know, look at and
Speaker 3: explore their body, touch themselves head to.
Speaker 4: Toe, move around.
Speaker 3: You know a lot of women have never looked at
Speaker 3: their genitalia or their vulvas in a mirror before, so
Speaker 3: you know, getting comfortable with how your vulva looks or
Speaker 3: how you know your penis looks. Guys are used to
Speaker 3: it because it's external, but a lot of women have it.
Speaker 3: You know, educating yourself as much as possible.
Speaker 4: Like I said before, knowledge is power. You know, understand
Speaker 4: and know your own anatomy.
Speaker 3: Self pleasure is huge, so you know, begin to discover
Speaker 3: what feels good to you. Sometimes you don't know what
Speaker 3: you don't know, so finding you know, there's tons of
Speaker 3: lists online. I have one in my book, like a yes, no,
Speaker 3: maybe type of list where you know, you see all
Speaker 3: different kinds of things you might do sexually mapped out
Speaker 3: and you can start to think about, like what you
Speaker 3: would be comfortable with versus maybe not so much, Just
Speaker 3: to start having an idea so that when you are
Speaker 3: with a partner, you can start expressing those desires, you know,
Speaker 3: rather than just kind of submitting to them and letting
Speaker 3: them do what they think.
Speaker 4: Feels good to you.
Speaker 3: So you know, those are just a few things I
Speaker 3: think people can do that that really go a long
Speaker 3: way and boosting confidence.
Speaker 2: Do you want to hear a funny story? I would
Speaker 2: love to about what so when you said we need
Speaker 2: to spend more time naked, I'm gonna tell a funny
Speaker 2: story about an interaction with the listener. Because I'm a
Speaker 2: big people, I'm just revealing myself. Yet I'm a big
Speaker 2: fan of this. Uh maybe because I grew up like
Speaker 2: I don't know, when we were kids, we'd always run
Speaker 2: around naked, like we were fine without bodies and all
Speaker 2: those things. I remember, probably a couple of months ago,
Speaker 2: I was at a beach in Sydney that's a nude beach,
Speaker 2: because why not, it's like a woman's nude beach. It's
Speaker 2: very very popular. And I'm in the water with my
Speaker 2: friends and we're splashing around fully naked, having the best time,
Speaker 2: just being very very like open, and the sun is
Speaker 2: shining and I get I come up back up onto
Speaker 2: like the little dock area, and these girls have kind
Speaker 2: of been watching me, and I'm like, I was like, oh, like,
Speaker 2: am I embarrassing myself? You know? We're being pretty open
Speaker 2: about it, and they go, oh, my gosh, are you
Speaker 2: the host of the Psychology of your twenties? And I
Speaker 2: hope they're listening to this episode because I just turned
Speaker 2: beat red. Oh my god, funny. I was so embarrassed.
Speaker 2: So if you'll like, even do and you know what,
Speaker 2: but I survived. So even doing things like that, like
Speaker 2: it's a funny story. Now, I was mortified. And I'm
Speaker 2: not someone who's embarrassed either, but even doing something like that,
Speaker 2: I was like, Wow, that made me feel really weird.
Speaker 2: But then actually afterwards, now it's become a funny story,
Speaker 2: and it's about turning what could have been a really embarrassing,
Speaker 2: shameful experience into one that is something you can laugh
Speaker 2: about and that you can be like, well, of course
Speaker 2: that's where people would see me, because that's what I do. Like,
Speaker 2: that's how I enjoy my life, and I enjoy my city,
Speaker 2: and I enjoy the water and all those things.
Speaker 3: So I love that And it probably not only inspired
Speaker 3: those listeners but gave you a lot more street crad
Speaker 3: that you like, actually practice what you preach.
Speaker 2: On the show. I assured you I was playing mermaids
Speaker 2: naked in the beach, so there you go, everybody, there's
Speaker 2: a little I'm going to move back on to my
Speaker 2: actual professional, real life questions about a very important topic.
Speaker 2: But what advice would you maybe give someone who wants
Speaker 2: to fully embrace and explore their sexuality without a partner
Speaker 2: and not so long? Like, how could you go about
Speaker 2: asking what you want in sex whenever you want to,
Speaker 2: I guess have sex.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so a lot of people ask me that question
Speaker 3: and they'll add to that question and without it feeling awkward,
Speaker 3: And I'm like, well, step one is you lean into
Speaker 3: the feeling of awkward and you may even lead with that.
Speaker 3: You know, you can say something along the lines of listen.
Speaker 3: I've been doing a lot of personal work on myself lately,
Speaker 3: trying to feel more confident, and I am still I've
Speaker 3: made a lot of progress, but I am still working
Speaker 3: on my confidence with other people. And even saying this
Speaker 3: to you is kind of awkward and uncomfortable for me.
Speaker 3: But I heard on Psychology of your twenties that putting
Speaker 3: that out there, you know, can go a long way
Speaker 3: and helping me feel closer to you, because it does,
Speaker 3: you know, inviting your partner to be a part of
Speaker 3: the process is intimacy building. You know, that is relational.
Speaker 3: Like I said before, shame is put on you, but
Speaker 3: pleasure oftentimes happens, you know, in relation to another person.
Speaker 3: And you can say, you know, I'm still exploring sexuality.
Speaker 4: I don't even know what.
Speaker 3: I don't know, but you know, I think we have
Speaker 3: a really great connection. We have established some trust and
Speaker 3: you know, I just want to ask you to be
Speaker 3: supportive through this journey and I'm going to practice with
Speaker 3: you asserting my desires and expressing my needs and I
Speaker 3: want to know.
Speaker 4: If you're okay with that.
Speaker 3: A good partner is going to say, like, heck, yes,
Speaker 3: I want to be a part of this journey with you.
Speaker 3: You know, anyone who replies with anything less enthusiastic than
Speaker 3: that probably isn't the right partner for you to begin.
Speaker 4: This process with. So yeah, to summarize, just kind of
Speaker 4: lead with it.
Speaker 3: Hey, this is uncomfortable for me, but I trust you
Speaker 3: can you hold my hand through this process.
Speaker 2: And I guess also, if it's like a person that
Speaker 2: you're not dating, I like to know a little bit
Speaker 2: of a fling or like a little bit of a hookup.
Speaker 2: I feel like the worst thing they can say is no,
Speaker 2: maybe they could tell other people, But honestly, anytime someone
Speaker 2: has told me any details about someone else and their
Speaker 2: sex life, I've been like, you're the asshole, Like I
Speaker 2: have never thought any poor I've never thought poor thoughts
Speaker 2: about someone who someone else is, you know, uninvited, unsolicited
Speaker 2: told me something about them intimately. So I think if
Speaker 2: that's what you're worried about, you've got to realize that
Speaker 2: no one who is actually a decent person will judge
Speaker 2: you for be your sexual desires as long as they're
Speaker 2: obviously legal and not hurting other people, you know, if
Speaker 2: that's what you're embarrassed about. Embarrassment sometimes comes with the territory,
Speaker 2: right it does.
Speaker 3: Now, Look, we don't see the embarrassing stuff that happens
Speaker 3: all the time during sex in movies and TV.
Speaker 4: They edit that part out right.
Speaker 3: But I mean, there's gonna be a weird noise or
Speaker 3: an awkward position or a wet spot like you know,
Speaker 3: that's just sex is wonderful and pleasurable and joyoush But
Speaker 3: it can be messy too, and that's okay, you know.
Speaker 3: I want to say, though, I would caution anyone on
Speaker 3: this on kind of initiating this process with a casual
Speaker 3: sex partner, because I do think that trust and safety
Speaker 3: are such an important foundation in healing shame. So you know,
Speaker 3: ideally you want to do it with someone who you've
Speaker 3: established that with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very good advice. I want to just move on
Speaker 2: to one final section of questioning, which is about libido.
Speaker 2: People ask me about libido all the time, and obviously
Speaker 2: I've had my own personal experiences, but it was something
Speaker 2: I always didn't really want to touch because I was like,
Speaker 2: I was waiting for the right guest and who you are.
Speaker 2: So now I have all these listener questions that I've
Speaker 2: wanted to answer for so long because people do really
Speaker 2: struggle with it. And you think that you shouldn't struggle
Speaker 2: with libido in your twenties because you should be, you know,
Speaker 2: ready to have sex and like super into it all
Speaker 2: the time constantly. You're young, the fittest and healthy is
Speaker 2: you've maybe ever been a lot of these experiences might
Speaker 2: be new and you're the early days and relationships whatever
Speaker 2: it is. People feel a lot of pressure to be
Speaker 2: having sex all the time. What would you say to
Speaker 2: someone who feels like the libido is almost too high
Speaker 2: or too low?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so we have to first.
Speaker 3: We can't pathologize people who have low libido necessarily. I mean,
Speaker 3: ideally you want to partner up with someone who approximates
Speaker 3: your level of interest. Couples run into trouble when there's
Speaker 3: a really big gap between how much or little someone
Speaker 3: wants to experience sex.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: There are also people who identify as being asexual who
Speaker 3: just you know.
Speaker 4: Aren't in touch with that part of their life.
Speaker 3: And there's no problem with that. You know, they have
Speaker 3: really meaningful friendships. They might even have romantic relationships that
Speaker 3: don't include sex, you know.
Speaker 4: But there's a lot.
Speaker 3: Happening in our twenties. I think the biggest shift is
Speaker 3: that people are beginning to make the transition from kind
Speaker 3: of hormone driven sex to emotional driven sex. You know,
Speaker 3: the prefrontal cortex part of our brain isn't fully formed
Speaker 3: until we're twenty five, and you know, a lot of
Speaker 3: the sexual desire and urges that happen prior to that,
Speaker 3: in part, are coming from this kind of surge of hormones,
Speaker 3: you know, that are pushing us to potentially reproduce and
Speaker 3: you know, pair bond and things like that. But as
Speaker 3: those hormones and neurochemicals start to level out. We're starting to,
Speaker 3: I think in our twenties and especially later twenties, I
Speaker 3: would say, kind of discover and explore what motivates us
Speaker 3: to have sex from an emotional place, from an inner
Speaker 3: person place. And so, you know, I'm not surprised to
Speaker 3: hear that, you know, your listeners may kind of struggle
Speaker 3: to understand their libido in their twenties.
Speaker 4: You know, I'm a sex therapist.
Speaker 3: I've been doing this work since my early twenties, and
Speaker 3: you know, hindsight's always twenty twenty. I feel like I
Speaker 3: didn't really fully come into my own until I was
Speaker 3: over the age of thirty, you know. So it just
Speaker 3: I think takes time for people as we mature and
Speaker 3: have kind of more maturely you know, driven sex. It's
Speaker 3: it's different from how it is when we're you know,
Speaker 3: in our adolescence and early twenties.
Speaker 2: I really I like that you just said that it
Speaker 2: got better, like after thirty, Like that's when you really
Speaker 2: came into your own. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean, I've done a lot of research on desire.
Speaker 3: It's what I wrote a book about, and you know,
Speaker 3: I talked to a lot of people who maintained a
Speaker 3: strong sexual connection through the decades to find out what
Speaker 3: they did to sustain it. And none of them talked
Speaker 3: about sex in their twenties being the best sex of
Speaker 3: their lives. And none of them talked about the honeymoon
Speaker 3: stage being the greatest sex they had experienced. So we
Speaker 3: have to like totally move past the idea that great
Speaker 3: sex is reserved for like the young and enable bodied
Speaker 3: because that or only exist within the early stages of
Speaker 3: a relationship, because that couldn't be further from the truth.
Speaker 2: And I really enjoyed that you said the better as
Speaker 2: an idea, like it's it's really about finding someone who
Speaker 2: matches that. And Yeah, Therefore, I think perhaps the shame
Speaker 2: disappears when it's like, oh my god, I don't feel
Speaker 2: like I have to keep saying no, or I don't
Speaker 2: feel like I have to keep saying yes, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean. So it's really really sad. Fun I
Speaker 2: have one final question for you, and I really want
Speaker 2: you to talk about your book a little bit, because
Speaker 2: if you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be like, your book
Speaker 2: is just like the perfect companion. But this is the
Speaker 2: question I ask every single guest on the show, which
Speaker 2: is what is your biggest piece of advice for people
Speaker 2: in that twenties, And it doesn't have to be what
Speaker 2: we what we spoke about today.
Speaker 4: The best is yet to come, you know. I think
Speaker 4: that's what I would say there.
Speaker 3: You know, the twenties, your twenties is a time of
Speaker 3: transformation and you know, self exploration and understanding. But I
Speaker 3: you know, when I was in my early twenties, I
Speaker 3: had a therapist who said, you know, Emily, I think
Speaker 3: you need to really think hard about making any long
Speaker 3: term relationship decisions until you're at least thirty, because you
Speaker 3: just don't know yourself until then.
Speaker 4: And she was right. You know.
Speaker 3: I just think that what I want to encourage people
Speaker 3: to do in their twenties is continue to explore and
Speaker 3: push themselves outside their comfort zone and have new experiences
Speaker 3: and meet people and know that through that you will
Speaker 3: grow in your own understanding. But I think as we mature,
Speaker 3: and god, I'm sounding really old right now, but I
Speaker 3: think as we mature, the confidence that comes with that
Speaker 3: brings about such a sense of peace that in many
Speaker 3: ways life feels a lot easier.
Speaker 2: You know what. That made me feel great? The best
Speaker 2: is yet to come as someone who's made their career
Speaker 2: on the twenties so far, I think that's definitely something
Speaker 2: that I needed to hear. So where can people find
Speaker 2: your book? And more generally, what is it about? What
Speaker 2: could they what kind of information and learnings will they
Speaker 2: hopefully take from it? Yeah?
Speaker 3: So you know what inspired my book is I'd been
Speaker 3: doing this work for like fifteen years, and I could
Speaker 3: help people improve desire orgasms, you know, help women overcome pain,
Speaker 3: that sort of thing. But people often came back like
Speaker 3: wanting more intensity, more and passion, more passion. And as
Speaker 3: I started paying closer attention to the language they were using,
Speaker 3: I realized, you know, words like effortless, I want to
Speaker 3: feel lost in the moment, I want the world around
Speaker 3: me to disappear. I'm like, they're talking about a flow state.
Speaker 3: For people listening who don't know what a flow state is,
Speaker 3: it's when we are engaged in an activity in which
Speaker 3: we experienced that complete absorption, a sense of merger, loss
Speaker 3: of space and time, like a surfer who's at one
Speaker 3: with the wave. And I was like, well, yeah, like
Speaker 3: of course people want to experience a flow state during sex.
Speaker 3: That's like, what gives it that transcendent feel. So I
Speaker 3: turned to the literature to see what I could find,
Speaker 3: and there was nothing out there. I couldn't find a
Speaker 3: single paper that looked at the research or i'm sorry,
Speaker 3: at the relationship between great sex and flow states. So
Speaker 3: I did my own research study, went on to publish
Speaker 3: my findings, and that eventually set the premise for the book.
Speaker 3: I called up, you know, my research participants and had
Speaker 3: really long conversations with them, with the ones that got
Speaker 3: high scores, about what precisely they did to experience the
Speaker 3: state of flow during sex. And these five themes emerged,
Speaker 3: which are the five secrets in the book. So we've
Speaker 3: got sensuality, curiosity, adaptability, vulnerability, and attunement, and woven through
Speaker 3: those secrets is the science of flow. And I think
Speaker 3: what's really exciting to me about those five qualities is
Speaker 3: that we're born with them. You know, look at any child.
Speaker 3: They are born sensual, curious, with the ability to attune
Speaker 3: to adapt to new environments. And so this is really
Speaker 3: it explores, you know, not becoming someone that you're not,
Speaker 3: but really about looking within and reconnecting with qualities that
Speaker 3: are already there within us.
Speaker 2: I am solved, I'm sold. I feel I love those
Speaker 2: five themes, like that just describes passion in any area
Speaker 2: of your life, right, Like that's so brilliant, like an
Speaker 2: out of left field question. But what what was your
Speaker 2: favorite sacret? What was your favorite chapter well section of
Speaker 2: the book to write.
Speaker 3: I think curiosity was probably my favorite. I think it
Speaker 3: is the one that makes the most sense to people,
Speaker 3: you know. I think most people have an idea that
Speaker 3: sexual novelty is good for long term satisfaction, and that's
Speaker 3: reflected in the research. But I explore it in a
Speaker 3: way that I think is a bit different from how
Speaker 3: most people think of it. Flow state has eight components,
Speaker 3: and one of the most predictable ways to experience flow
Speaker 3: in anything is something called the challenge skills ratio. So
Speaker 3: what we know from flow state science is that we
Speaker 3: want the challenge of what we're doing to be just
Speaker 3: four percent greater than our skill set. If the challenge
Speaker 3: is too high, we experience anxiety and fear. If the
Speaker 3: challenge is too low, we experience and monotony. That's kind
Speaker 3: of where a lot of people end up with sex.
Speaker 3: But when people start exploring, sometimes they just dive into
Speaker 3: the deep end way too fast because the difference was
Speaker 3: too great. So, you know, I think what I talk
Speaker 3: about in the book is you know how to strike
Speaker 3: that balance between familiarity and novelty so that you know,
Speaker 3: it just doesn't take much to get in the zone,
Speaker 3: and how to have those conversations with your partner. And
Speaker 3: I just really enjoyed writing that chapter because I also
Speaker 3: encourage a lot of self exploration, Like you know, this
Speaker 3: whole episode we've been talking about how to release shame
Speaker 3: and inhibition, and I have a whole section in that
Speaker 3: chapter about how to think about your sexual values and
Speaker 3: explore how maybe they've changed today versus what you've kind
Speaker 3: of taken on as the default. And I have a
Speaker 3: questionnaire in there, so it it touches on a lot
Speaker 3: of different areas of growth within sexuality, which I think
Speaker 3: a lot of people can relate to.
Speaker 2: I think that's a beautiful summary, and I'm really hoping
Speaker 2: that a lot of you guys find what you're looking
Speaker 2: for in this book and the same way that you
Speaker 2: hopefully found what you were looking for in this episode.
Speaker 2: I'm going to leave a link to where you can
Speaker 2: Is it pre order? No, it's available.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say most people come on for pre
Speaker 2: orders and I'm like, oh wait, maybe not this time.
Speaker 2: I will leave a link in the episode description where
Speaker 2: you can order this book, The Anatomy of Desire, And I.
Speaker 4: Have tons of like online learning.
Speaker 3: Materials that are free with purchase, so be sure to
Speaker 3: like go back over to my website after you get
Speaker 3: the book and you fill out a form and you'll
Speaker 3: get like hundreds of dollars worth of like free staff.
Speaker 4: So it's a good deal.
Speaker 2: Guys, that's an investment. That really is investment. Well, thank
Speaker 2: you again for coming on the podcast. I hope that
Speaker 2: everyone who listened enjoyed this episode and got something out
Speaker 2: of it. Feel free to send it to someone, maybe
Speaker 2: a part nah who you think could really get something
Speaker 2: out of this episode as well, maybe a friend, someone
Speaker 2: you've spoken to about these themes and these topics before.
Speaker 2: As always, if you have episode suggestions, if you want
Speaker 2: to continue the conversation, if you have feedback or further
Speaker 2: comments about this episode, you can always DM me on
Speaker 2: Instagram at that Psychology podcast. And until next time, stay safe,
Speaker 2: be kind, be gentle to yourself, and we will talk
Speaker 2: very very soon.