1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 2: Before we begin the episode, I just want to let 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 2: you all know that this episode will include discussions of sex, 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 2: including sexual assault and sexual trauma. So if this topic 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 2: is one that is particularly upsetting for you, please feel 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 2: free to stop listening now. This episode will still be 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 2: here in a week, a month, a year, so just 11 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 2: consider your current mental headspace and your ability to listen 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 2: to stories and advice about these themes. There will be 13 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: resources in the episode description if needed. Hello everybody, Welcome 14 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, 15 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 2: old listeners. Wherever you are in the world, it is 16 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: so great to have you here. Back for another episode, 17 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 2: Back for another December guest episode, and we'd break down 18 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: the psychology of our twenties. When I was thinking about 19 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 2: who I wanted to invite on this December and what 20 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: I wanted to discuss, I thought a lot about a 21 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 2: DM that I received from a listener asking me to 22 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: talk about sexual confidence, specifically how to move past shame 23 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 2: from your past and feel like your pleasure is something 24 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 2: that is important and that you can advocate for. And 25 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 2: it was a really amazing question, one that we've really 26 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 2: never answered before on the podcast, despite definitely being an 27 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 2: important theme in our twenties, So I wanted to talk 28 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: about it today. How can we enjoy the sex we're 29 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 2: having despite shame from the past. How can we be 30 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: more confident? How can we really know what we are 31 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: after So much about sex comes down to psychology and 32 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: our mental state and how we're influenced by emotional wounds, attachment, 33 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 2: past memories, attitudes not just towards sex, towards ourselves. And 34 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: today we have on an amazing guest who has a 35 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: deep expertise in all of these topics, Doctor Emily Jamia. 36 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Psychology of your Twenties. 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Gemma. I'm so thrilled to 38 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 3: be here. And can I just say I wish that 39 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 3: this podcast had existed when I was in my twenties, 40 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 3: because you have so many great episodes with so much information, 41 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 3: So I am so thrilled to be a part of it. 42 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. That's that nice little compliment to 43 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 2: start out the episode. I really appreciate that. Can you 44 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 2: briefly introduce your work and yourself and what you do? 45 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 4: Sure? 46 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 3: So I am a sex and relationship therapist. I am 47 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 3: based in Houston, Texas. In addition to my clinical practice, 48 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 3: I do a lot of public speaking. 49 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 4: I just released a book. 50 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 3: In November called Anatomy of Desire, Five Secrets to create 51 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 3: connection and cultivate passions. 52 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 4: Be sure to check that out. 53 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,679 Speaker 3: And you know, as much as possible, I just try 54 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 3: to get the word out wherever I can, to whomever 55 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 3: I can. So there's so much to say about what 56 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 3: makes sex great and what we can do to experience that, 57 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 3: and so I just love, you know, taking as many 58 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 3: opportunities that I can. 59 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 2: Like this, Yeah, we're really really excited to have you on. 60 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 2: And it's a bit of a it's a bit of 61 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: a deep, vulnerable topic. So I was like, we need 62 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 2: an expert to discuss this because sexual shame is something 63 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: that I think a lot of us actually have, but 64 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 2: not many of us have the proper words to talk about. 65 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: And I really want to talk about I really want 66 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 2: to discuss the various ways that shame actually shows up, right, 67 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: because it's not just one type of experience. What have 68 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: you tended to find in your practice and your work 69 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: are the biggest sources of sexual shame for people not 70 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: just in their twenties but to out there life. 71 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 3: I think we have to start by defining sexual shame 72 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 3: because it is such a big term that, to your point, 73 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 3: can show up and manifest itself in so many different ways. 74 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 4: I really love Noel Clark's definition of sexual shame. 75 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 3: She is she did pioneering research on the topic and 76 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 3: actually won a presidential award, so I'd like to share 77 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 3: her definition because it is the best. So sexual shame 78 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 3: is a visceral feeling of humiliation and disgust for one's 79 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 3: own body and identity as a sexual being. It is 80 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 3: a belief of being abnormal, inferior, and unworthy. This feeling 81 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 3: can be internalized but also manifests in our interpersonal relationships, 82 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 3: having a negative impact on trust, communication, and physical and 83 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 3: emotional intimacy. Sexual shame develops across the lifespan, in interactions 84 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 3: in interpersonal relationships, one's culture and society, and subsequent critical 85 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 3: self appraisal. There's also a fear of uncertainty with one's 86 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 3: power or right to make decisions, including safety decisions related 87 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 3: to sexual encounters, along with an internalized judgment about one's 88 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 3: own sexual desire. 89 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 2: A lot. 90 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 3: There's a lot packed into that definition, and that is 91 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 3: because sexual shame is slimy, it is sticky. It comes 92 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 3: from all different places and can kind of work its 93 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 3: way into different nooks and crannies within the psyche, within 94 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 3: the body, within one's thoughts, feelings. You know, here in 95 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 3: the US, where I'm based, I would say the majority 96 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 3: of the shame I treat comes from kind of oppressive 97 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 3: or rigid religious institutions that you know, people grow up 98 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 3: hearing the message that sex is wrong, sex is bad, 99 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 3: save it for someone you love, which is just very confusing. 100 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 3: Why would you want to save something bad for someone 101 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 3: you love? And so that alone creates a lot of 102 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 3: kind of incongruence in feelings. There's also not we don't 103 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 3: have great sex education in our school system. So you know, 104 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 3: information is power. The more you know, the more comfortable 105 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 3: you are. Sex is one of those things that you know, 106 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 3: a lot of parents and schools just don't give kids 107 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 3: an instruction manual for you know, you would never put 108 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 3: a kid behind the wheel of a car before talking 109 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 3: to them about some you know, basic rules of the road, 110 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 3: but for some reason, a lot of people have this 111 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 3: idea that sex is this quote unquote natural thing, and 112 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 3: for all intentsive purposes, it is, but we still need 113 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 3: information about it. 114 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 4: You know, I see sexual. 115 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 3: Shame pop up because of, of course, the obvious things 116 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 3: like sexual trauma. You know, I see it because of 117 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 3: emotional trauma, family of origin trauma, you know, the messages 118 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 3: we internalize about our body, about our ability or our 119 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 3: worthiness of being loved, our ability to love. All of 120 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 3: that has the potential to contribute to feelings of shame 121 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 3: and unworthiness, and. 122 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: Then of course sexuality as well, and like you know, 123 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: and also sometimes even people write into me feeling that 124 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: they have sexual shame for not having sex. So it's 125 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 2: just like a very complicated thing where it's like, Okay, 126 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 2: you I feel ashamed for having sex. I feel ashamed 127 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,559 Speaker 2: when I have sex. I feel ashamed for not having sex. 128 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: It's like a past, present future. Every single person seems 129 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: to be involved in this because of as you said, 130 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 2: what seems to be quite a social and cultural phenomena. 131 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: And that's really my next question is what are the 132 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: social but also the emotional roots of this shame so 133 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 2: how does it kind of take hold? 134 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, first of all, I'm so glad you brought 135 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 3: that up about the shame of not having sex, because 136 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 3: it's interesting, I think, particularly for your listeners people in 137 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 3: their twenties. You know, this demographic holds the most sexually 138 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 3: expansive views in modern history. And so sometimes if people 139 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 3: are maybe choosing to be monogamous. 140 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 4: Or not very kinky or. 141 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 3: You know, you name it, sometimes they can be shamed 142 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 3: for that as well. And so, you know, really what 143 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 3: it's about is accepting everyone, you know, no matter where 144 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 3: they choose to fall, and you know, respecting their right 145 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 3: to make that decision for themselves. 146 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 2: And so, really, when we talk about the experience of 147 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 2: sexual shame and how that looks, what are some of 148 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: the ways that that shows up emotionally for us? What 149 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 2: are some of the ways that we might be able 150 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 2: to recognize it in ourselves. 151 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 3: People who are carrying shame often describe feeling kind of 152 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 3: small during sex or in general. They may feel like 153 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 3: they have difficulty asserting their wants and needs. They may 154 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 3: feel that they don't have a voice. And it's not 155 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 3: just emotional, it can be physical too. I mean, it 156 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 3: can you know, I treat a lot of women who 157 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 3: experience pain with intercourse because the shame that they've internalized 158 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 3: around sex is so profound that it causes their pelvic 159 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 3: floor muscles to tighten up, you know, in a way 160 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 3: that's out of their control. And so some of these 161 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 3: women are unable to have intercourse because the pelvic floor 162 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 3: muscles are kind of clamping shut. It can manifest itself 163 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 3: in thoughts as well, feeling feelings of you know, I'm 164 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 3: not worthy enough, I'm not good enough, I don't deserve 165 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 3: sexual pleasure. I don't feel that I have sexual autonomy. 166 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 3: I don't feel like my sexual desires or needs are 167 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 3: important or worthy. 168 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: You know. 169 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 3: It can show up in all different ways, mental, emotional, 170 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 3: and physical. 171 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 2: I really like that you brought up the physical side 172 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 2: of this as well, because we think about shame is 173 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 2: something that's very cognitive, very emotional, as we said, something 174 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: that impacts us in the mind, not always realizing that 175 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 2: of course, the mind and the body are very, very 176 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 2: very like they're the same thing. It makes me really yeah, 177 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 2: you can't separate them. And now, trauma, shame, really intense 178 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 2: emotions always show up in the body, in muscle tension, 179 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 2: in you know, a suppressed immune system in stain, in 180 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 2: chronic pain, and as you said, like with shame showing 181 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: up in like help, what was it like pelvic flow contractions, yes, 182 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 2: which is just and spasms, which is like very very interesting. 183 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: It's very important I think to note that it's that 184 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: your sexual shame is not something that is only going 185 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 2: to be It's not just in your mind. It's something 186 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: that's very real and very tangible. And when we've experienced 187 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 2: it for a long time, how does that impact our 188 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: ability to connect with others and maybe not just like intimately, 189 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: but emotionally as well. Do you see that have you 190 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 2: seen in your practice at the shame sometimes even starts 191 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 2: to extend beyond sex. 192 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean I very rarely distinguish sex from 193 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 3: you know, emotional connection, because the two are so inextricably 194 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 3: linked in my mind. So, people who are carrying shame 195 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 3: can enter into a pattern of unhealthy relationships, maybe because 196 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 3: they just don't believe that they are worthy of love 197 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 3: that you know, can be expressed healthy and is multidirectional. 198 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 3: They may over rely on sex to feel affirmed or 199 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 3: validated in their relationship, and that can be kind of 200 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 3: a pleasure inhibitor. They may kind of tune out during 201 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 3: sex and dissociate, which is also a big pleasure inhibitor. 202 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 3: And so, you know, I think it's really important for 203 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 3: people to pay very close attention to the sensations they're 204 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: experiencing in their body when they are sexual. You know, 205 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 3: are you experiencing a tightness in your chest? Shame oftentimes 206 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,959 Speaker 3: shows up in the gut. You know, we'll get kind 207 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 3: of a pit in our stomach, or a feeling of nausea, 208 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 3: that's that like feeling of disgust. And so it's important 209 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 3: if you're not experiencing pleasure during sex, what sensations are 210 00:12:54,679 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 3: you experiencing? Just beginning by identifying them and naming them 211 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 3: is a really great first step in mindfulness which can 212 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 3: help begin the process of moving them out. 213 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 2: I really want to focus on something you just said, actually, 214 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 2: which was two things, which was over relying on sex 215 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 2: in a relationship and feeling like you're zoning out when 216 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 2: you're having sex. Maybe focusing on that first one. Why 217 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: do people because obviously when we think sexual shame, we 218 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 2: think wanting to avoid sex, right and wanting and having 219 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 2: such negative attitudes towards it that it doesn't have an 220 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 2: active role in your life. But what is this overreliance 221 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 2: on in a relationship? 222 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 3: So that stems from a place of an internalized message 223 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 3: that you have to have sex or be sexual for 224 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 3: someone else rather than for yourself or as part of 225 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 3: you know, a more mutual, relational connected experience. So what 226 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 3: happens is you kind of take yourself out of the equation. 227 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 3: And people who do this can have sex that's very performative. 228 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 3: You know, they may do things that they don't necessarily 229 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 3: like because they think doing so will please their partner 230 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 3: and make their partner, you know, more likely to stay 231 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 3: with them. And it can kind of fill an emotional 232 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 3: void temporarily in the moment because you know, theoretically we 233 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 3: feel seen when we're naked in bed with the person. 234 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 4: But if that. 235 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 3: Feeling of intimacy, that emotional intimacy isn't going both ways, 236 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 3: and if it's just to fill someone else's cup because 237 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 3: doing so feels good, that feeling is not going to last. 238 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 3: It's going to end up, you know, kind of leaving 239 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 3: you empty at the end of the day. 240 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: And I can also imagine how to put such a 241 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: strain on the relationship because you know, you're having sets 242 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 2: when you don't want to maybe you want to to 243 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 2: please them. So it's like a set secondary want, right, 244 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 2: It's not the primary want of wanting to have sex, 245 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 2: it's the secondary one. And I'm sure that actually leads 246 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: to a lot of resentment as well. 247 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean when you continuously put the 248 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 3: needs of other people over your own, eventually it does 249 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 3: build up your anger and resentment and ultimately drops your 250 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 3: self esteem even more. Yeah, you've taken yourself out of 251 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 3: the equation. 252 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 2: So if someone is dealing with that and they're like, okay, well, actually, 253 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 2: what I'm finding is I am just saying yes to 254 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 2: how oh I'm offering sex, even I'm offering sex, which 255 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: I'm sure is a big thing because you know, I 256 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 2: know that's what my partner really wants, and I actually 257 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 2: don't really want it, but I want to make them happy, 258 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 2: and I'm feeling so numb when we have sex. I'm 259 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 2: actually not even enjoying this, Like I'm not not enjoying it, 260 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: but I'm not feeling anything. How would you recommend people 261 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 2: address that, Is it to take sex off the table 262 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 2: or how would you go about that. 263 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 4: Extent? 264 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 3: I think it's really helpful. You know, there's always the 265 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 3: question do you address the emotional stuff first or do 266 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 3: you address the sexual stuff first? And you know, most 267 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 3: people say, well, you have to dress the emotional stuff 268 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 3: first or eltz, you're not going to be able to 269 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 3: heal the sexual stuff. 270 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 4: And I take a little bit of a different approach. 271 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 3: Like I said earlier, I don't really separate sex and emotion, 272 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,239 Speaker 3: And so, you know, for people who might be struggling 273 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 3: with this, I'll have them take really small baby steps 274 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 3: and work their way up so they're kind of rounding 275 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 3: the bases again. That may look like, you know, spending 276 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 3: some time cuddling with your partner, maybe even with your 277 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 3: clothes on, seeing how it feels to accept like a 278 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 3: massage or a caress from your partner without the expectation 279 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 3: of doing anything back to them, and noticing, you know, 280 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 3: what's happening in that moment. Am I fighting the urge 281 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 3: to surrender and relax and just enjoy this moment for myself? 282 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 3: Or am I kind of tensing up my mind or 283 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 3: my thoughts wandering, is my mind kind of zoning out, 284 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 3: just noticing what's happening in that moment and continuing to 285 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 3: kind of repeat that several times until you start to 286 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 3: at a minimum, experience it more neutrally, and hopefully until 287 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 3: you start to have more positive feelings about the experience 288 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 3: and then starting to work your way into you know, 289 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 3: more and more sex acts if you will, that kind 290 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 3: of progress things along, just depending on what your comfort 291 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 3: level is. Now you have to have a partner who's 292 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 3: willing to help you through this process. You know, there's 293 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 3: a lot of healing that can happen within oneself individually, 294 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 3: but so much of our healing happens in relation to 295 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 3: other people. And it's not uncommon at all for people 296 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 3: who are holding on to shame, like I said, to 297 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 3: kind of get into unhealthy relationship patterns. And you know, 298 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 3: I wouldn't recommend doing what I just described with someone 299 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 3: who you know is toxic or unhealthy for whatever reason. 300 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,719 Speaker 3: So it may mean that you start this process with 301 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 3: a new relationship partner once you have had a bit 302 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 3: more time to establish kind of some emotional safety and 303 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 3: trust and take your time. 304 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: I really like that what you just said there that 305 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 2: a lot of healing does happen in relation to others, 306 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: and perhaps it's a good sign that if you're with 307 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 2: someone who is like, no, I'm not going to respect 308 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 2: this complete reversal about intimate lives in this complete return 309 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 2: to first base second base, Like, how is that going 310 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 2: to be in twenty years? Yeah, none of this will 311 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 2: ever be healed. I think if something doesn't change, and 312 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: it might change within the relationship, or the relationship might 313 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 2: be the thing that needs to change, you know what. 314 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 3: I mean precisely, if someone's not willing to take that 315 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 3: walk with you hand in hand, then you know that's 316 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 3: a big red flag. 317 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 2: I want to move on to how we can unlearn 318 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 2: sexual shame by ourselves, So without a partner, as single people, 319 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 2: maybe as someone who's never even had sex, or as 320 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 2: you know, whatever it is your situation is. If you've 321 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 2: found in the past that you're entering intimate situations and 322 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,360 Speaker 2: just being like, okay, like my priorities who are out 323 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: the window, I'm going to do whatever they want to do, 324 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 2: or I just feel disgusting after this, or whatever it is, 325 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 2: how do we unlearn that as a single person or 326 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 2: as a solo person. 327 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, such a great question. I'm going to give y'all 328 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 3: some really good tools. I say y'all because I'm in Texas. 329 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 2: I love it I was like. 330 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 3: So, the first thing you have to know is that 331 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 3: the sexual shame you have is not yours to carry. 332 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 3: It was put on you by either another individual, by 333 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 3: a culture, by a religious institution, by implicit or explicit 334 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 3: negative messages about sex, and you because your human have 335 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 3: internalized it as your own. But the first step is 336 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 3: recognizing that it does not belong to you. That's number one. 337 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 3: Number two, you want to identify what the negative thoughts 338 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 3: are that you have about your body, about desire, about 339 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 3: asserting your needs, about voicing your preferences, and begin the 340 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 3: process of replacing them with the thoughts that you would 341 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 3: like to have. 342 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 4: So, if you hold on to the belief. 343 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 3: Like my body is not worthy of pleasure, first ask 344 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 3: yourself where that belief came from, and then flip it 345 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 3: into my body was hardwired for pleasure, and then start 346 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 3: doing things that allow you the experience of pleasure. Maybe 347 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 3: it starts with non sexual things, maybe you know, enjoying 348 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 3: a you know, really great piece of chocolate or hot tea, 349 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 3: or you know, savoring little pleasures in life, just to 350 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,719 Speaker 3: kind of start those pathways and getting them to fire, 351 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 3: and then gradually working your way, you know, into the 352 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 3: intimate realm. I also really love somatic work for this. 353 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 3: You know, as we talked about before, shame is stored 354 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 3: in the body. So I will literally have people, like, 355 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 3: let's say they are experiencing shame because of negative messages 356 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 3: they got from the church, or maybe even because of 357 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 3: a trauma that they experienced. I will have them write 358 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 3: a letter to whoever that person or entity was that 359 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 3: made them feel that way. Is not a letter that 360 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 3: they will ever give to that person, but I will 361 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 3: have them imagine that person sitting in an empty chair 362 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 3: across from them and. 363 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 4: Reading the letter aloud. 364 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 3: And then I'll have them hold something like a issue 365 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 3: box over the area of their body where they're folding 366 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 3: shame and like pull the tissues out one by one. 367 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 3: It can kind of like give people the feeling of 368 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 3: pulling the emotion off or even getting like a towel 369 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 3: and like wiping away the area and the body where 370 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 3: that shame is. Those kinds of exercises can actually be 371 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 3: really profound and transformative for people. And so just as 372 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 3: you know, the healing begins, you know, I think within 373 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 3: the individual. Those are a few things that I really 374 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 3: like and recommend to clients. 375 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: Sematic therapy and sematic healing probably one of my favorite, 376 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 2: my favorite forms of healing. Yeah, it's really up there 377 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 2: because it's like, again, if trauma and emotions are stored 378 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 2: in the body, how could we think that, you know, 379 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 2: moving beyond them or processing them or regulating them is 380 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 2: not going to include the body. 381 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, it's short. 382 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 2: Oh exactly, We're going to take a quick break, and 383 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 2: then we're going to return with doctor Emily Jimia to 384 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 2: talk about sexual confidence and how we can feel good 385 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 2: about ourselves. We are back with doctor Emily Jima and 386 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 2: I want to talk about sexual confidence because sexual shame 387 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 2: is one thing, and but then we might also not 388 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,239 Speaker 2: have any sexual shame, but just not feel like we 389 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 2: really know what we're doing, or we're not feeling amazing 390 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 2: in our bodies. And I think a big part of 391 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 2: sex is just feeling good about yourself. You know, I 392 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 2: don't want to have sex with my partner or go 393 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: on dates or even look for a sexual partner if 394 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 2: I don't feel good and if I don't have sexual confidence. 395 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 2: So how is this something that we can build without 396 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 2: necessarily just having more sex? Yeah? 397 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 4: I love this. 398 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 3: You know, when people come in with a sexual issue 399 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 3: or kind of ask them where they feel like they 400 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 3: fall on a scale of negative ten to positive ten, 401 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 3: where negative ten is like holy hell, and everyone do 402 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 3: that again, and positive ten is like sewing and from 403 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 3: the shandeliers. 404 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 4: So we've talked so far about how. 405 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 3: To move out the shame and hopefully gotten people to 406 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 3: a place of neutrality. But this is like the fun part, 407 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 3: Like how do we start building the positive feelings and 408 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 3: sensations that we want to experience so that we can 409 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 3: you know, explore and experience our full sexual and erotic potential. 410 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 3: Once you have hopefully relearned some thoughts or changed some 411 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 3: beliefs that you may hold. I think it's really helpful 412 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 3: to talk to other people who maybe are in your 413 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 3: circle who are. 414 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 4: More sexually confident. 415 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 3: You know, we feed off each other's energy, and people 416 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 3: who are holding shame, like I said before, oftentimes don't 417 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 3: feel like they have much of a voice. And so, 418 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 3: you know, hopefully at this point in the game, people 419 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 3: are starting to feel more comfortable with the idea at 420 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 3: least of great sex. Talking to a friend, you know, 421 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 3: find the Samantha in your group. I don't know if 422 00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 3: your listeners watch sex in the city, or if like 423 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 3: they're too young for that, but they definitely okay. So, 424 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 3: you know, find the friend who you know has kind 425 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 3: of an unabashed, you know, feeling about her sexual her 426 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 3: sexuality or his sexuality, and and ask them what that's 427 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 3: like for them, and you will see them start to 428 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 3: light up. You will see their posture open up, you 429 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 3: will see them sit a little taller, and ideally that 430 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 3: will kind of invite your body to do the same. 431 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 3: We have mirror neurons in our brain, so when one 432 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 3: person you know, for example, describes what it's like to 433 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 3: eat a warm chocolate chip cookie, our brains, if looked 434 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 3: at under an MRI, can light up as if we're 435 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 3: the ones experiencing eating the cookie. So talking to people 436 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 3: who feel really great about their sexuality can be a 437 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 3: really simple, easy way to just begin getting a sense 438 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 3: of what it's like to have some of those feelings 439 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 3: within your own body. I also think we need to 440 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 3: spend more time naked. You know, you cannot expect to 441 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 3: feel totally comfortable and open with your body in the 442 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 3: presence of another person if you can't do so yourself. 443 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 3: So I will have people you know slowly undressed in 444 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 3: front of the mirror and you know, look at and 445 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 3: explore their body, touch themselves head to. 446 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 4: Toe, move around. 447 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 3: You know a lot of women have never looked at 448 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 3: their genitalia or their vulvas in a mirror before, so 449 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 3: you know, getting comfortable with how your vulva looks or 450 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 3: how you know your penis looks. Guys are used to 451 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 3: it because it's external, but a lot of women have it. 452 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 3: You know, educating yourself as much as possible. 453 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 4: Like I said before, knowledge is power. You know, understand 454 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 4: and know your own anatomy. 455 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 3: Self pleasure is huge, so you know, begin to discover 456 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 3: what feels good to you. Sometimes you don't know what 457 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 3: you don't know, so finding you know, there's tons of 458 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 3: lists online. I have one in my book, like a yes, no, 459 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 3: maybe type of list where you know, you see all 460 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 3: different kinds of things you might do sexually mapped out 461 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 3: and you can start to think about, like what you 462 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 3: would be comfortable with versus maybe not so much, Just 463 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 3: to start having an idea so that when you are 464 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 3: with a partner, you can start expressing those desires, you know, 465 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 3: rather than just kind of submitting to them and letting 466 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 3: them do what they think. 467 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 4: Feels good to you. 468 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 3: So you know, those are just a few things I 469 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 3: think people can do that that really go a long 470 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 3: way and boosting confidence. 471 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 2: Do you want to hear a funny story? I would 472 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 2: love to about what so when you said we need 473 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 2: to spend more time naked, I'm gonna tell a funny 474 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 2: story about an interaction with the listener. Because I'm a 475 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 2: big people, I'm just revealing myself. Yet I'm a big 476 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 2: fan of this. Uh maybe because I grew up like 477 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,239 Speaker 2: I don't know, when we were kids, we'd always run 478 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 2: around naked, like we were fine without bodies and all 479 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: those things. I remember, probably a couple of months ago, 480 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 2: I was at a beach in Sydney that's a nude beach, 481 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 2: because why not, it's like a woman's nude beach. It's 482 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 2: very very popular. And I'm in the water with my 483 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: friends and we're splashing around fully naked, having the best time, 484 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 2: just being very very like open, and the sun is 485 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 2: shining and I get I come up back up onto 486 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 2: like the little dock area, and these girls have kind 487 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 2: of been watching me, and I'm like, I was like, oh, like, 488 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: am I embarrassing myself? You know? We're being pretty open 489 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 2: about it, and they go, oh, my gosh, are you 490 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 2: the host of the Psychology of your twenties? And I 491 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: hope they're listening to this episode because I just turned 492 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 2: beat red. Oh my god, funny. I was so embarrassed. 493 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 2: So if you'll like, even do and you know what, 494 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 2: but I survived. So even doing things like that, like 495 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 2: it's a funny story. Now, I was mortified. And I'm 496 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 2: not someone who's embarrassed either, but even doing something like that, 497 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 2: I was like, Wow, that made me feel really weird. 498 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 2: But then actually afterwards, now it's become a funny story, 499 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 2: and it's about turning what could have been a really embarrassing, 500 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 2: shameful experience into one that is something you can laugh 501 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: about and that you can be like, well, of course 502 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,479 Speaker 2: that's where people would see me, because that's what I do. Like, 503 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 2: that's how I enjoy my life, and I enjoy my city, 504 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 2: and I enjoy the water and all those things. 505 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 3: So I love that And it probably not only inspired 506 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 3: those listeners but gave you a lot more street crad 507 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 3: that you like, actually practice what you preach. 508 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 2: On the show. I assured you I was playing mermaids 509 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 2: naked in the beach, so there you go, everybody, there's 510 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 2: a little I'm going to move back on to my 511 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 2: actual professional, real life questions about a very important topic. 512 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 2: But what advice would you maybe give someone who wants 513 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 2: to fully embrace and explore their sexuality without a partner 514 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 2: and not so long? Like, how could you go about 515 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,479 Speaker 2: asking what you want in sex whenever you want to, 516 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 2: I guess have sex. 517 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, so a lot of people ask me that question 518 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 3: and they'll add to that question and without it feeling awkward, 519 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 3: And I'm like, well, step one is you lean into 520 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 3: the feeling of awkward and you may even lead with that. 521 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 3: You know, you can say something along the lines of listen. 522 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 3: I've been doing a lot of personal work on myself lately, 523 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,479 Speaker 3: trying to feel more confident, and I am still I've 524 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 3: made a lot of progress, but I am still working 525 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 3: on my confidence with other people. And even saying this 526 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 3: to you is kind of awkward and uncomfortable for me. 527 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 3: But I heard on Psychology of your twenties that putting 528 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 3: that out there, you know, can go a long way 529 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 3: and helping me feel closer to you, because it does, 530 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 3: you know, inviting your partner to be a part of 531 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 3: the process is intimacy building. You know, that is relational. 532 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 3: Like I said before, shame is put on you, but 533 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 3: pleasure oftentimes happens, you know, in relation to another person. 534 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 3: And you can say, you know, I'm still exploring sexuality. 535 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 4: I don't even know what. 536 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 3: I don't know, but you know, I think we have 537 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 3: a really great connection. We have established some trust and 538 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 3: you know, I just want to ask you to be 539 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 3: supportive through this journey and I'm going to practice with 540 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 3: you asserting my desires and expressing my needs and I 541 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 3: want to know. 542 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 4: If you're okay with that. 543 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 3: A good partner is going to say, like, heck, yes, 544 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 3: I want to be a part of this journey with you. 545 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 3: You know, anyone who replies with anything less enthusiastic than 546 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 3: that probably isn't the right partner for you to begin. 547 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 4: This process with. So yeah, to summarize, just kind of 548 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 4: lead with it. 549 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 3: Hey, this is uncomfortable for me, but I trust you 550 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 3: can you hold my hand through this process. 551 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 2: And I guess also, if it's like a person that 552 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 2: you're not dating, I like to know a little bit 553 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 2: of a fling or like a little bit of a hookup. 554 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 2: I feel like the worst thing they can say is no, 555 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 2: maybe they could tell other people, But honestly, anytime someone 556 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 2: has told me any details about someone else and their 557 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: sex life, I've been like, you're the asshole, Like I 558 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: have never thought any poor I've never thought poor thoughts 559 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,719 Speaker 2: about someone who someone else is, you know, uninvited, unsolicited 560 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 2: told me something about them intimately. So I think if 561 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 2: that's what you're worried about, you've got to realize that 562 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 2: no one who is actually a decent person will judge 563 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 2: you for be your sexual desires as long as they're 564 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 2: obviously legal and not hurting other people, you know, if 565 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: that's what you're embarrassed about. Embarrassment sometimes comes with the territory, 566 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 2: right it does. 567 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 3: Now, Look, we don't see the embarrassing stuff that happens 568 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 3: all the time during sex in movies and TV. 569 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 4: They edit that part out right. 570 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 3: But I mean, there's gonna be a weird noise or 571 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 3: an awkward position or a wet spot like you know, 572 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 3: that's just sex is wonderful and pleasurable and joyoush But 573 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 3: it can be messy too, and that's okay, you know. 574 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 3: I want to say, though, I would caution anyone on 575 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 3: this on kind of initiating this process with a casual 576 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 3: sex partner, because I do think that trust and safety 577 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 3: are such an important foundation in healing shame. So you know, 578 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 3: ideally you want to do it with someone who you've 579 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 3: established that with. 580 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, very good advice. I want to just move on 581 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 2: to one final section of questioning, which is about libido. 582 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 2: People ask me about libido all the time, and obviously 583 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 2: I've had my own personal experiences, but it was something 584 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 2: I always didn't really want to touch because I was like, 585 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 2: I was waiting for the right guest and who you are. 586 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 2: So now I have all these listener questions that I've 587 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 2: wanted to answer for so long because people do really 588 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 2: struggle with it. And you think that you shouldn't struggle 589 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 2: with libido in your twenties because you should be, you know, 590 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 2: ready to have sex and like super into it all 591 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 2: the time constantly. You're young, the fittest and healthy is 592 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 2: you've maybe ever been a lot of these experiences might 593 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 2: be new and you're the early days and relationships whatever 594 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 2: it is. People feel a lot of pressure to be 595 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 2: having sex all the time. What would you say to 596 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 2: someone who feels like the libido is almost too high 597 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 2: or too low? 598 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, so we have to first. 599 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 3: We can't pathologize people who have low libido necessarily. I mean, 600 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 3: ideally you want to partner up with someone who approximates 601 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 3: your level of interest. Couples run into trouble when there's 602 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 3: a really big gap between how much or little someone 603 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,280 Speaker 3: wants to experience sex. 604 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 4: You know. 605 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 3: There are also people who identify as being asexual who 606 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 3: just you know. 607 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 4: Aren't in touch with that part of their life. 608 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 3: And there's no problem with that. You know, they have 609 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 3: really meaningful friendships. They might even have romantic relationships that 610 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 3: don't include sex, you know. 611 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 4: But there's a lot. 612 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 3: Happening in our twenties. I think the biggest shift is 613 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 3: that people are beginning to make the transition from kind 614 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:18,839 Speaker 3: of hormone driven sex to emotional driven sex. You know, 615 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 3: the prefrontal cortex part of our brain isn't fully formed 616 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 3: until we're twenty five, and you know, a lot of 617 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 3: the sexual desire and urges that happen prior to that, 618 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 3: in part, are coming from this kind of surge of hormones, 619 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 3: you know, that are pushing us to potentially reproduce and 620 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 3: you know, pair bond and things like that. But as 621 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 3: those hormones and neurochemicals start to level out. We're starting to, 622 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 3: I think in our twenties and especially later twenties, I 623 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 3: would say, kind of discover and explore what motivates us 624 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 3: to have sex from an emotional place, from an inner 625 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 3: person place. And so, you know, I'm not surprised to 626 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 3: hear that, you know, your listeners may kind of struggle 627 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 3: to understand their libido in their twenties. 628 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 4: You know, I'm a sex therapist. 629 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 3: I've been doing this work since my early twenties, and 630 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 3: you know, hindsight's always twenty twenty. I feel like I 631 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 3: didn't really fully come into my own until I was 632 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 3: over the age of thirty, you know. So it just 633 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 3: I think takes time for people as we mature and 634 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 3: have kind of more maturely you know, driven sex. It's 635 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 3: it's different from how it is when we're you know, 636 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 3: in our adolescence and early twenties. 637 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 2: I really I like that you just said that it 638 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 2: got better, like after thirty, Like that's when you really 639 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 2: came into your own. Yeah. 640 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 4: I mean, I've done a lot of research on desire. 641 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 3: It's what I wrote a book about, and you know, 642 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 3: I talked to a lot of people who maintained a 643 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 3: strong sexual connection through the decades to find out what 644 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 3: they did to sustain it. And none of them talked 645 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 3: about sex in their twenties being the best sex of 646 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 3: their lives. And none of them talked about the honeymoon 647 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 3: stage being the greatest sex they had experienced. So we 648 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 3: have to like totally move past the idea that great 649 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 3: sex is reserved for like the young and enable bodied 650 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 3: because that or only exist within the early stages of 651 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 3: a relationship, because that couldn't be further from the truth. 652 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 2: And I really enjoyed that you said the better as 653 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 2: an idea, like it's it's really about finding someone who 654 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 2: matches that. And Yeah, Therefore, I think perhaps the shame 655 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 2: disappears when it's like, oh my god, I don't feel 656 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 2: like I have to keep saying no, or I don't 657 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 2: feel like I have to keep saying yes, you know 658 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 2: what I mean. So it's really really sad. Fun I 659 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 2: have one final question for you, and I really want 660 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,240 Speaker 2: you to talk about your book a little bit, because 661 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,760 Speaker 2: if you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be like, your book 662 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 2: is just like the perfect companion. But this is the 663 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 2: question I ask every single guest on the show, which 664 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 2: is what is your biggest piece of advice for people 665 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 2: in that twenties, And it doesn't have to be what 666 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 2: we what we spoke about today. 667 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 4: The best is yet to come, you know. I think 668 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 4: that's what I would say there. 669 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 3: You know, the twenties, your twenties is a time of 670 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:25,439 Speaker 3: transformation and you know, self exploration and understanding. But I 671 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 3: you know, when I was in my early twenties, I 672 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 3: had a therapist who said, you know, Emily, I think 673 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 3: you need to really think hard about making any long 674 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 3: term relationship decisions until you're at least thirty, because you 675 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 3: just don't know yourself until then. 676 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 4: And she was right. You know. 677 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 3: I just think that what I want to encourage people 678 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 3: to do in their twenties is continue to explore and 679 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 3: push themselves outside their comfort zone and have new experiences 680 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 3: and meet people and know that through that you will 681 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 3: grow in your own understanding. But I think as we mature, 682 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 3: and god, I'm sounding really old right now, but I 683 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 3: think as we mature, the confidence that comes with that 684 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 3: brings about such a sense of peace that in many 685 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 3: ways life feels a lot easier. 686 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 2: You know what. That made me feel great? The best 687 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 2: is yet to come as someone who's made their career 688 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 2: on the twenties so far, I think that's definitely something 689 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 2: that I needed to hear. So where can people find 690 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 2: your book? And more generally, what is it about? What 691 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 2: could they what kind of information and learnings will they 692 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 2: hopefully take from it? Yeah? 693 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 3: So you know what inspired my book is I'd been 694 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 3: doing this work for like fifteen years, and I could 695 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 3: help people improve desire orgasms, you know, help women overcome pain, 696 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 3: that sort of thing. But people often came back like 697 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 3: wanting more intensity, more and passion, more passion. And as 698 00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,240 Speaker 3: I started paying closer attention to the language they were using, 699 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 3: I realized, you know, words like effortless, I want to 700 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 3: feel lost in the moment, I want the world around 701 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,760 Speaker 3: me to disappear. I'm like, they're talking about a flow state. 702 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 3: For people listening who don't know what a flow state is, 703 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 3: it's when we are engaged in an activity in which 704 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:19,800 Speaker 3: we experienced that complete absorption, a sense of merger, loss 705 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 3: of space and time, like a surfer who's at one 706 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 3: with the wave. And I was like, well, yeah, like 707 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 3: of course people want to experience a flow state during sex. 708 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 3: That's like, what gives it that transcendent feel. So I 709 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 3: turned to the literature to see what I could find, 710 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 3: and there was nothing out there. I couldn't find a 711 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,759 Speaker 3: single paper that looked at the research or i'm sorry, 712 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 3: at the relationship between great sex and flow states. So 713 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,280 Speaker 3: I did my own research study, went on to publish 714 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,240 Speaker 3: my findings, and that eventually set the premise for the book. 715 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 3: I called up, you know, my research participants and had 716 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 3: really long conversations with them, with the ones that got 717 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 3: high scores, about what precisely they did to experience the 718 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 3: state of flow during sex. And these five themes emerged, 719 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 3: which are the five secrets in the book. So we've 720 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 3: got sensuality, curiosity, adaptability, vulnerability, and attunement, and woven through 721 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,399 Speaker 3: those secrets is the science of flow. And I think 722 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 3: what's really exciting to me about those five qualities is 723 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 3: that we're born with them. You know, look at any child. 724 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 3: They are born sensual, curious, with the ability to attune 725 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 3: to adapt to new environments. And so this is really 726 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 3: it explores, you know, not becoming someone that you're not, 727 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:44,319 Speaker 3: but really about looking within and reconnecting with qualities that 728 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 3: are already there within us. 729 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 2: I am solved, I'm sold. I feel I love those 730 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,360 Speaker 2: five themes, like that just describes passion in any area 731 00:41:55,400 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 2: of your life, right, Like that's so brilliant, like an 732 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,839 Speaker 2: out of left field question. But what what was your 733 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 2: favorite sacret? What was your favorite chapter well section of 734 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 2: the book to write. 735 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 3: I think curiosity was probably my favorite. I think it 736 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 3: is the one that makes the most sense to people, 737 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 3: you know. I think most people have an idea that 738 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 3: sexual novelty is good for long term satisfaction, and that's 739 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 3: reflected in the research. But I explore it in a 740 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 3: way that I think is a bit different from how 741 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 3: most people think of it. Flow state has eight components, 742 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,800 Speaker 3: and one of the most predictable ways to experience flow 743 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 3: in anything is something called the challenge skills ratio. So 744 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 3: what we know from flow state science is that we 745 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 3: want the challenge of what we're doing to be just 746 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 3: four percent greater than our skill set. If the challenge 747 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,400 Speaker 3: is too high, we experience anxiety and fear. If the 748 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,879 Speaker 3: challenge is too low, we experience and monotony. That's kind 749 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 3: of where a lot of people end up with sex. 750 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,479 Speaker 3: But when people start exploring, sometimes they just dive into 751 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 3: the deep end way too fast because the difference was 752 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 3: too great. So, you know, I think what I talk 753 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 3: about in the book is you know how to strike 754 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:23,440 Speaker 3: that balance between familiarity and novelty so that you know, 755 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,840 Speaker 3: it just doesn't take much to get in the zone, 756 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 3: and how to have those conversations with your partner. And 757 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 3: I just really enjoyed writing that chapter because I also 758 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 3: encourage a lot of self exploration, Like you know, this 759 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 3: whole episode we've been talking about how to release shame 760 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 3: and inhibition, and I have a whole section in that 761 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 3: chapter about how to think about your sexual values and 762 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 3: explore how maybe they've changed today versus what you've kind 763 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 3: of taken on as the default. And I have a 764 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 3: questionnaire in there, so it it touches on a lot 765 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,879 Speaker 3: of different areas of growth within sexuality, which I think 766 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 3: a lot of people can relate to. 767 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 2: I think that's a beautiful summary, and I'm really hoping 768 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 2: that a lot of you guys find what you're looking 769 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:12,840 Speaker 2: for in this book and the same way that you 770 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,720 Speaker 2: hopefully found what you were looking for in this episode. 771 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to leave a link to where you can 772 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,800 Speaker 2: Is it pre order? No, it's available. 773 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:21,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 774 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,799 Speaker 2: I was gonna say most people come on for pre 775 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 2: orders and I'm like, oh wait, maybe not this time. 776 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 2: I will leave a link in the episode description where 777 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,279 Speaker 2: you can order this book, The Anatomy of Desire, And I. 778 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,799 Speaker 4: Have tons of like online learning. 779 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,920 Speaker 3: Materials that are free with purchase, so be sure to 780 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 3: like go back over to my website after you get 781 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,200 Speaker 3: the book and you fill out a form and you'll 782 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 3: get like hundreds of dollars worth of like free staff. 783 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:47,399 Speaker 4: So it's a good deal. 784 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,879 Speaker 2: Guys, that's an investment. That really is investment. Well, thank 785 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 2: you again for coming on the podcast. I hope that 786 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,239 Speaker 2: everyone who listened enjoyed this episode and got something out 787 00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 2: of it. Feel free to send it to someone, maybe 788 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 2: a part nah who you think could really get something 789 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:04,800 Speaker 2: out of this episode as well, maybe a friend, someone 790 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,240 Speaker 2: you've spoken to about these themes and these topics before. 791 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,279 Speaker 2: As always, if you have episode suggestions, if you want 792 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,920 Speaker 2: to continue the conversation, if you have feedback or further 793 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 2: comments about this episode, you can always DM me on 794 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:22,359 Speaker 2: Instagram at that Psychology podcast. And until next time, stay safe, 795 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,239 Speaker 2: be kind, be gentle to yourself, and we will talk 796 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 2: very very soon.