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Speaker 1: Katie Gustafson is here. She is the Enneagram informed therapist

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Speaker 1: and coach has been on the podcast a couple of times.

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Speaker 1: Hi Katie, thank you for being back with us today.

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Speaker 2: Oh thanks for having me. I always love coming to

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Speaker 2: talk to you. Such a trull.

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Speaker 1: We love having you on. I'm obsessed with the Enneagram

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Speaker 1: and I know so many of my listeners are as well.

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Speaker 1: And I initially reached out to you because it kind

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Speaker 1: of dawned on me when we were going through our

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Speaker 1: topic for this month, which is Cobwebs about Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: there are so many parts of the enneagram that we

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Speaker 1: don't dive into, and that includes the core fears. And

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Speaker 1: so when I was thinking about cobwebs and just the

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Speaker 1: Enneagram popped into my head because of some stuff that

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Speaker 1: I was going through, and I thought, this is such

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Speaker 1: an interesting take, like looking at the core fears of

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Speaker 1: each number and how much that actually is driving our behavior,

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Speaker 1: whether it's conscious or unconscious. So I had texted you

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Speaker 1: because you know, I've talked a little bit about this

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Speaker 1: on the podcast, but I've been going through some somatic

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Speaker 1: therapy which is life changing and just crazy and such

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Speaker 1: an interesting experience, but I went through a bunch of

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Speaker 1: traumatic events all at the same time, and so it

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Speaker 1: feels kind of crazy when you're like four years later

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Speaker 1: just being able to talk about things and work on

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Speaker 1: certain things. But that's where I am. And some of

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Speaker 1: it has to do with this public embarrassment that I

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Speaker 1: had on a reality TV show that I was on.

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Speaker 1: And for listeners that are new, they might be like, what,

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Speaker 1: I didn't even know this about her, and you've even said, like,

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Speaker 1: I know you so separate from that that it doesn't

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Speaker 1: even like dawn on me. But that was a part

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Speaker 1: of my story and it's something that I've been working

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Speaker 1: on a lot because I'm seeing how hard it's become

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Speaker 1: for me to like put myself out there, Like I

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Speaker 1: feel a little frozen in my public life that I

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Speaker 1: never have felt before this experience, and so I started

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Speaker 1: thinking about that because I was like, gosh, this was

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Speaker 1: so traumatic for me, yet I do see other people

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Speaker 1: go through similar things and not really have the same

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Speaker 1: reaction to it, and so I kind of started to

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Speaker 1: deep dive into why it was impacting me that way,

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Speaker 1: and the enneagram was one of the main things that

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Speaker 1: popped into my head because one of the core fears

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Speaker 1: that the number four is being misunderstood, and that was

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Speaker 1: like the main part of that story was there was

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Speaker 1: stuff that was being said about me that wasn't true,

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Speaker 1: and then the public was reacting as if and responding

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Speaker 1: to me as if that was a true statement, and

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Speaker 1: I just froze instead of being able to find words

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Speaker 1: or talk or do anything. It completely crippled me. So

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Speaker 1: it just got me thinking about this whole thing, like

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Speaker 1: how much do our core fears actually impact what we're

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Speaker 1: doing on a daily basis.

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Speaker 2: Totally thanks for sharing that, because that sets this conversation

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Speaker 2: up just perfectly. And I feel like, as hard as

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Speaker 2: it has been for you to revisit some of those traumas, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I always think about when I think about fear and

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Speaker 2: how much it drives our behavior kind of steers the ship.

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Speaker 2: I think about. This is gonna like probably make you laugh.

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Speaker 2: Do you ever see the movie Batman Begins?

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Speaker 1: Which one was that long time agour new nail.

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Speaker 2: It's okay, okay, two thousand and five six somewhere on there, Okay,

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Speaker 2: So it kind of gives you the backstory on how

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Speaker 2: he becomes Batman, and he had this early memory of

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Speaker 2: falling into this cave on his family's estate. You know,

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Speaker 2: he's kind of out wandering too far. Yeah, and he

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Speaker 2: falls into this cave, little Bruce, and he is like

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Speaker 2: like getting his bare looks around and all of the sudden,

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Speaker 2: his vision kind of narrows in on this massive wall

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Speaker 2: of bats. They fly all over him, and it's it's

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Speaker 2: totally terrifying, right, I'm terrible exercise. Yeah right, so yeah, anyways,

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Speaker 2: the point of this story is that movie shows where

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Speaker 2: Bruce Wayne goes back into this fear of his He

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Speaker 2: revisits the cave that he had that traumatic experience, and

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Speaker 2: he purposefully, you know when he's able to, which is

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Speaker 2: years and years and years later, goes back into the

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Speaker 2: cave and experiences this swarm of bats and and you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of the Hollywood like dramatic way, he in that

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Speaker 2: kind of moment really becomes batman.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like totally faces the feet, any kind of breathing it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, in a very theatrical way. But it's such

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Speaker 2: a good picture to kind of reverse engineer this whole conversation.

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Speaker 2: You know, how do you work with the fear that's

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Speaker 2: specific to your enneagram type. We have to go back

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Speaker 2: into it in a safe way. And what you just

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Speaker 2: described in the work that you're doing four years later,

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Speaker 2: is you described going back into the fear, going back

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Speaker 2: into the emotional kind of overlay of those really really

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Speaker 2: traumatizing events. Yeah, and doing some healing work in that space.

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Speaker 1: Well. And the interesting thing about that, the way you

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Speaker 1: just said that is a lot of people say to

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Speaker 1: me like why would you you know, like why why

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Speaker 1: would you go back into that? Like you can move

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Speaker 1: past it, you seem fine, blah blah blahlah blah. But

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Speaker 1: for me, I knew I wasn't fine. Like I know

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Speaker 1: that I'm not operating at a certain level that I'm

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Speaker 1: capable of or as my authentic self fully because I

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Speaker 1: can feel the difference, and I just know like the

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Speaker 1: only way out is through. I've just been taught that

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Speaker 1: for so long and I just believe it. That's been

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Speaker 1: my experience. And so if I don't go face it,

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Speaker 1: like to go back to your analogy, if I don't

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Speaker 1: go back in the cave, it's still there. It's just

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Speaker 1: like driving me in this way that's not necessarily in

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Speaker 1: my conscious mind on a day to day or you know,

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Speaker 1: minute to minute, but I want to like clear it out,

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Speaker 1: like face it, clear it out, and actually move forward.

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Speaker 1: And that's just been the way that I've dealt with

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Speaker 1: most things in my life. But people think I'm crazy,

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Speaker 1: like that looks really hard and painful and not fun.

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Speaker 1: But I just think fears can drive us in this

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Speaker 1: most like insane ways. Really it's just not worth it.

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Speaker 1: I'd rather face it and be done well.

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Speaker 2: To me, that's the essence of courage, Right, It's really

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Speaker 2: kind of that opposite of fear. Or it's not that

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Speaker 2: you don't have any fear anymore, it's just that you're

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Speaker 2: showing up in spite of the fear. Yeah, And that's

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Speaker 2: what I've seen you do ever since I've known you,

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Speaker 2: is just to keep like showing up as honestly as

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Speaker 2: possible and live in integrity with yourself, which does include

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Speaker 2: a lot of meeting the fear and moving through the

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Speaker 2: fear and working.

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Speaker 1: With Yeah, well, let's dive into the enneagram numbers and

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Speaker 1: the fear a little bit, but let's let's start with

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Speaker 1: why is it important to understand your fear? I mean,

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Speaker 1: because we kind of just touched on that, right. If

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Speaker 1: you don't look at it, it's that thing that's looming

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Speaker 1: in the shadows, but it's probably driving some of your behavior.

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Speaker 1: So is that something you see a lot with any

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Speaker 1: of your clients that you're talking to you about this

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Speaker 1: enneagram stuff?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, our personalities. The enneagram is this dynamic

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Speaker 2: kind of grand theory or system, if you will. It's

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Speaker 2: a tool that we use to understand the nine core

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Speaker 2: personality types in the world, one of which we all

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Speaker 2: gravitated to, one of which each of us gravitated to

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Speaker 2: in early childhood. So you know, the personality is wild.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of this mashup of like temperament, innate qualities,

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Speaker 2: coping strategies, defense mechanism, affects, and our childhood experience really

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Speaker 2: helps to shape our personalities, and our personalities are protective mechanisms. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's just a big old survival strategy for planet Earth.

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Speaker 2: That's really kind of our personality becomes this kind of

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Speaker 2: survival strategy that we live out of based on whatever

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Speaker 2: was going on around us as little little people. As

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Speaker 2: some people had really steep staircases to climb, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: just didn't have the glaring kind of drama and trauma

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Speaker 2: and chaos, but we all had. We all had a landing,

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Speaker 2: no matter you know, how gentle it was or how

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Speaker 2: kind of ruckous it was. Like, we all have one,

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Speaker 2: and so our personalities are incredibly helpful tools. And really

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Speaker 2: the enneagram teaches that these personalities are defensive structures that

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Speaker 2: form around a lot of times a childhood wound. And

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Speaker 2: now this can be a literal wound, it could be

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Speaker 2: a perceived wound. But we all, you know, like we

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Speaker 2: come into the world and we are not fearful. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: like we're born into the world. We're not afraid. We're

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Speaker 2: just incredibly vulnerable. But we're open and we're curious, and

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Speaker 2: we're just kind of you know, moment to moment. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't take long, however, to realize that the world that

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Speaker 2: we live in and the people that are around us

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Speaker 2: are are less than perfect. Right, Yeah, it doesn't take

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Speaker 2: long for us to kind of kind of wake up

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Speaker 2: to this fact that this like I got to work

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Speaker 2: to get some of these needs met, and it's really

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Speaker 2: important for me to get the approval of others so

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Speaker 2: that I can fit in and belong and feel loved

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Speaker 2: and accepted. And so what is the most brilliant strategy

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Speaker 2: of doing that our personality and how the core fear

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Speaker 2: fits in. That is, if these defensive strategies form around

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Speaker 2: a series of events or childhood experiences as little people,

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Speaker 2: fear is going to be really really helpful in helping

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Speaker 2: us sniff out anything that remotely smells like that old wound.

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Speaker 1: Okay, wait, I have a question first, because you're talking

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Speaker 1: about childhood and how that impacts our personality. So are

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Speaker 1: we born a certain Enneagram number or do we kind

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Speaker 1: of like come into that?

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Speaker 2: Is it?

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Speaker 1: Is it like the nature versus nurture thing?

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Speaker 2: I have friends in the Enneagram community that really believe

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Speaker 2: we're born with our type. Okay, I don't think that

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Speaker 2: that's the case. I think it's I think it's nature nurture.

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Speaker 2: I think we're definitely born with temperament, ye right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I have a four year old kid who is the

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Speaker 2: biggest extrovert I've ever met in my life, right at

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Speaker 2: four years old, and my husband and I are both

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Speaker 2: pretty introverted. Like, he has his own thing going on

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Speaker 2: that we have very little to do with, right Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So I think he's definitely like, we're all born with temperament,

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Speaker 2: with these innate kind of quality. But again, I think

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Speaker 2: it's a mixture it's a mixture of our early experience

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Speaker 2: as people. Okay, what was happening around us kind of attachment,

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Speaker 2: this feeling of did we have attunement with our you know,

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Speaker 2: original caregivers. What did that look like? Yeah, I think

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Speaker 2: it's both.

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Speaker 1: So if that's the case, does some of it become

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Speaker 1: amplified about these fears like do we pick these kind

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Speaker 1: of let me think of how to say what I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to say. It's like, I'm thinking, Okay, I'm a four.

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Speaker 1: Did I become a four because of some things that

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Speaker 1: maybe went on in my childhood? And so then all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, like I felt very misunderstood or whatever.

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Speaker 1: So you start to kind of build your personality around

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Speaker 1: these fears.

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Speaker 2: I think it's it's again, it's like fours typically have

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Speaker 2: a more reserved temperament. Yeah, look at more to themselves,

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Speaker 2: kind of more attuned to their interior experience. So there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of temperament stuff going on. But yeah, I

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Speaker 2: mean to your point around this childhood wound of the

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Speaker 2: four has a lot to do with abandonment and either

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Speaker 2: having a perceived experience or a real experience of being

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Speaker 2: abandoned and not understanding that and so they make it

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Speaker 2: be about something that's wrong with them. So there's that wound,

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Speaker 2: and so what do little fours do? They learn how

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Speaker 2: to make themselves really special in the eyes of other

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Speaker 2: people so that they won't be left that they won't

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Speaker 2: they won't have to relive that fear. So that's where

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Speaker 2: the fear kind of kicks in.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I see, Yeah, so let's go back to number one.

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Speaker 1: Let's start back there. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Type one's basic, and again, like for anybody that's new

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Speaker 2: to the system, we've done episodes that they can revisit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, multiple episodes with Katie. If you guys, just put

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Speaker 1: in Velvet's Edge and Katie Gustafson, which I will put

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Speaker 1: in the description of this podcast so you know how

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Speaker 1: to spell. But you'll see that we've done just a

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Speaker 1: breakdown of enneagram numbers and then some other stuff about

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Speaker 1: some other drivers and the wings. I remember us talking

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Speaker 1: a lot about that. There's a lot of layers to

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Speaker 1: the enneagram, so if you are new, you may want

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Speaker 1: to go back and start with one of those. But

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Speaker 1: this is kind of like a deeper dive into something.

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Speaker 1: We were saying this before. I have never heard anyone

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Speaker 1: talk about the core fears in nyagram and to me,

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Speaker 1: as like even just the example I was giving earlier,

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Speaker 1: I'm starting to realize, oh, this is probably a major

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Speaker 1: driver for a lot of the things that I do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, because again, fear is a protective emotion.

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Speaker 1: Totally, and we've all developed these survival skills. Yeah kids,

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Speaker 1: like you said, right.

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Speaker 2: So the fear is really in it. It's kind of

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Speaker 2: own little organism trying to be helpful, trying to help

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Speaker 2: us stay safe. And that's that fight or flight. It

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Speaker 2: sounds like you said you froze.

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Speaker 1: I was in fighter flight for a long time, and

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Speaker 1: then I think, yeah, it went into freeze. And that

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Speaker 1: was the thing I actually recognized more because I think

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Speaker 1: I've probably been in fighter flight for a long time.

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Speaker 1: So you get you do, you get a little more comfortable,

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Speaker 1: you know, And as what I assumed was like overachieverness,

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Speaker 1: but I actually think I was probably in flight a

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Speaker 1: lot of my adult life, just like I've got to go,

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Speaker 1: I gotta go, you know, like give me more coffee,

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Speaker 1: let me power through this. And then it just got

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Speaker 1: to be too much and I went into freeze, which

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Speaker 1: is like, well, why can't I get out of bed feeling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so Type one's fear being bad, be corrupt, and

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Speaker 2: really ultimately unworthy. A lot of times I hear ones

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Speaker 2: talk about an early experience where they were publicly humiliated

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Speaker 2: or embarrassed somehow, maybe at school or on the playground,

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Speaker 2: and so as little improvers, you know, they really learned

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Speaker 2: early on just how good it felt to do the

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Speaker 2: right thing, to stay in their lane, to be teachers,

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Speaker 2: little helper, to avoid any kind of situation that might

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Speaker 2: kind of reveal any kind of like unsavory part of

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Speaker 2: who they are. Yeah, so they develop these really rigid

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Speaker 2: kind of standards and ways of moving through the world,

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Speaker 2: and you know, in their most vibrant expressions, they're really

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Speaker 2: world changers, right because they are just incredibly committed to

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Speaker 2: making themselves in the world around them a better place. However,

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Speaker 2: just this fear of being corrupt and bad and kind

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Speaker 2: of found out is driving the show a whole lot.

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Speaker 2: And that really few, that perfectionism and that inner critic

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Speaker 2: that is so loud for Type ones.

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Speaker 1: So the one is the perfectionist? Is that the right name?

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Speaker 1: So how do you see that manifests in people's lives.

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Speaker 2: So many different ways? I mean in a good sense

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Speaker 2: or in an unhelpful.

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Speaker 1: Sense with the fear piece of it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think a lot of you know, I think

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Speaker 2: I think perfectionism is really all about fear. It's all

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Speaker 2: about fear and control right and control is like at

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Speaker 2: the heart of control is fear. So if I it's

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Speaker 2: kind of a little bit of a god complex. If

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Speaker 2: I don't do this the right way, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: not going to get done.

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Speaker 1: It's all fall apart.

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Speaker 2: Nobody can do it like I can. You know. I

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Speaker 2: think ones their fear kind of keeps them stuck, and

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Speaker 2: this inability to delegate, and just this real hyper self

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Speaker 2: criticism in others, criticism because they're so afraid of the

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Speaker 2: just the humanity in themselves that could leak out sideways

293
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Speaker 2: and be miss misunderstood or mistaken for bad behavior, you know,

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Speaker 2: So they just stay so buttoned up, which is you

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Speaker 2: know that rigidity I think is a byproduct of fear, fear,

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Speaker 2: you know, unworthy in some way.

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Speaker 1: So if there are ones listening, do you have some

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Speaker 1: feedback on maybe some tips to kind of get in

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Speaker 1: touch with this fear that's driving them.

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Speaker 2: You know, I love using kind of the arrows, the

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Speaker 2: lines on the enneagram, if you look at type one,

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Speaker 2: they're the line that points to type seven, which is

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Speaker 2: where type ones go in security. And I think a

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Speaker 2: seven is such a good influence for type ones because

305
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Speaker 2: they're so playful, right, Yeah, they're so curious, and they're

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Speaker 2: so in the moment and when they're healthy. Right, it's

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Speaker 2: the high side of that number. So I think ones

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Speaker 2: can really kind of it's it's going to be hard

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Speaker 2: to just get rid of that inner critic. But I

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Speaker 2: think the thing that I love to encourage ones to

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Speaker 2: do is to practice curiosity instead of self criticism, to

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Speaker 2: practice playing first instead of you know this really like

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Speaker 2: hyper responsibility, to get the job done right, to really

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Speaker 2: loosen that grip of their personality and relax into this

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Speaker 2: kind of more curious, playful space where I think, I

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Speaker 2: don't know about you, but curiosity helps me stay out

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Speaker 2: of fear when i'm curally something and move towards it

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Speaker 2: a little bit more. I can kind of tease it

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Speaker 2: out a little bit more. But if I'm so bound

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Speaker 2: by you know, fear and control that is running the show.

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Speaker 1: I love that point because or one of my I

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Speaker 1: don't know, if this isn't there, our mentor back in

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Speaker 1: the day told me just stay curious, like even about

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Speaker 1: my own behaviors, why I was responding certain ways to

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Speaker 1: certain things, And that shift in mentality, just that tiny

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Speaker 1: little stay curious versus like what you said, going into

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Speaker 1: the self criticism and all of that stuff, it does

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Speaker 1: make everything feel a lot lighter. And then a lot

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Speaker 1: of times you realize, and I would wonder if anyone's

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Speaker 1: listening would resonate with this, but you do realize you

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Speaker 1: don't really know how life is mapped out, like none

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Speaker 1: of us really know, you know, And so a lot

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Speaker 1: of times if you set your vision to something or

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Speaker 1: a certain way, it's going to be you kind of

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Speaker 1: miss all the opportunities there are for greatness. So kind

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Speaker 1: of staying curious versus really attaching to it has to

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Speaker 1: be done like the rigidity. Yeah, yeah, that makes a

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Speaker 1: ton of sense as it. Okay, let's move to the

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Speaker 1: the caretaker.

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Speaker 2: So, man twos, in my mind are the type that

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Speaker 2: is most simplified, over simplified of.

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Speaker 1: All the type of interesting.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So Type two's fear being unlovable, I mean I

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Speaker 2: think that to me, that's the core of they fear

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Speaker 2: being dispensable. So you know early on a lot of

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think heart types in generals twos, threes,

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Speaker 2: and four's had a love need that didn't get met,

348
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Speaker 2: but definitely type twos. So they spend their time and

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Speaker 2: energy kind of ensuring connection with others in relationships, and

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Speaker 2: this is often engineered by helping and by giving. You know,

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't say that twos can be just like kind

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Speaker 2: of drilled down to helpers. They're just they just want

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Speaker 2: to help. They just are helping, and they're just here

354
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Speaker 2: to help with the cast role in hand at all times.

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Speaker 2: It's like you like, I feel like twos they're like

356
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Speaker 2: we all are very complex, and so everything that they

357
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Speaker 2: do is really focused on other people. Okay, is on

358
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Speaker 2: other people. So their own personal needs and desires really

359
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 2: get they fall asleep to them really back burner, and

360
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Speaker 2: they're they're always wanting to maintain engineer this connection and

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Speaker 2: relationship to people around them, because this fear is driving

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Speaker 2: the show that if they did have their own needs

363
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Speaker 2: and desires, if they were really difficult and had boundaries,

364
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Speaker 2: that that might turn people away.

365
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Speaker 1: Oh, so they operate from a boundaryless giver place to

366
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Speaker 1: earn the love that they in the place in these

367
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Speaker 1: people in these relationships. Yeah, okay, So how much of

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Speaker 1: A two's behaviors are authentically what they want that want

369
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Speaker 1: to do now I'm confused.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a really good question. I think healthy two's

371
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Speaker 2: are really have had to do the work of learning

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Speaker 2: how to set boundaries, learning how to say no, how

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Speaker 2: to spend time in solitude, like they go to the

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Speaker 2: you know, the type four, there's that growth path that

375
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Speaker 2: really invites them like you and I as four, as

376
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,199
Speaker 2: we could just sit around and drink coffee on our

377
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Speaker 2: own all day long and have a big old time,

378
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Speaker 2: right the best day for me? Yeah, yeah, totally. And

379
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Speaker 2: I think for a two that's really scary to give

380
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Speaker 2: yourself that. And so again that's going back into the fear.

381
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Speaker 2: For them is really putting their needs first, putting their

382
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Speaker 2: desires first, spending that time going inward and quieting down

383
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Speaker 2: to that voice inside that I think was pretty shut

384
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Speaker 2: down early on. That's a big kind of invitation for

385
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Speaker 2: type twos to go against that fear, you know, because

386
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 2: I think growth, this healing work, as you very well

387
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 2: know this, but I think it's such a combination of

388
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 2: real just relentless self compassion. Yes, and also challenging the

389
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 2: limiting patterns that are at play in our personality. So

390
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 2: it's like both and we got to level self into it.

391
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Speaker 2: But there has to be a little bit of discomfort,

392
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 2: you know, because the work is going to go against

393
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Speaker 2: these very ingrained structures and patterns of behavior that we've

394
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 2: been living out of our whole lives.

395
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Speaker 1: Well and like you said, if we've picked them up

396
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Speaker 1: in childhood or they came from something that happened in childhood,

397
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Speaker 1: it's the story. Like you've heard people say, the story

398
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 1: in my head is, and it is, it's the story

399
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: in our head. But until we even recognize that it's

400
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,919
Speaker 1: just a story, it's the driver all things. Yeah, and

401
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 1: you can't fully grasp oh there may be another story,

402
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: you know, like maybe this is just a fake story,

403
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: and I need to look at the other opportunities for

404
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 1: a different kind of story or have someone present that

405
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: to you. But stepping into that new narrative is really

406
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Speaker 1: really scary.

407
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so well said, you nailed it. I mean,

408
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 2: our personalities really do become the stories that we live

409
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: out of, well to like middle age, right, yeah, you know,

410
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 2: but these are stories that were made up by a

411
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Speaker 2: six year old. Right, So six year olds are really

412
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 2: great storytellers, but they're really shitty interpreters, right. They don't

413
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 2: have depth of insight, they don't have context. It's just

414
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 2: you know, it's like I see it all the time

415
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Speaker 2: with my son. If I don't get to eat this

416
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Speaker 2: popsicle before breakfast, I might die, Like I don't.

417
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: You're like, you're not gonna die.

418
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Speaker 2: I'm fine, let's just babystep this, you know. But these stories,

419
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Speaker 2: I mean, that's a silly example, but that's kind of

420
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: an example of some of these just wild stories that

421
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: we made up as little people in order to kind

422
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: of make sense of the world around us. Sure, and

423
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 2: things that we were experiencing that were a little scary.

424
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it seems like very black and white type

425
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: thinking because I think that's probably as when we're younger,

426
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: that is the only option, right, if this happened, then

427
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: that means this, and it's just like that's got to

428
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: be it. That's the only way that my mind can

429
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: wrap its head around this. And it, like you said,

430
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: if before would be like turn on themselves or whatever

431
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 1: it is. And so yeah, I think we like hold

432
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Speaker 1: on to those narratives and then you get into adult life,

433
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh wait, there's a whole lot of

434
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: gray happening in adult life, and if you don't learn

435
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: to work with that, it can leave you feeling very stuck.

436
00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 2: Well, what happens, I think is that these little personalities

437
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 2: have to grow and expand to kind of facilitate the

438
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 2: complexities of life as an adult, and they get so

439
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: overgrown that we can't tell the difference between our personnelity

440
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: and our true self. And that's where this work. That's

441
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 2: where the waking up happens. And sometimes that takes a

442
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 2: traumatic experience in your life to like get you into therapy. Yeah,

443
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 2: sometimes it takes a loss. Sometimes it takes a really

444
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 2: jarring event to kind of be that wake up call.

445
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: All right, let's get to the threes.

446
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 2: Threes our neighbor. Their fear is failure as being a failure.

447
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: The three are achievers, right, yes, sorry, are.

448
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 2: The achievers performers, But yeah, it's it's this fear of

449
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 2: failure which would basically render them not valuable. Okay, So

450
00:27:54,840 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: early on, you know, they kind of garnered this life

451
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 2: and acceptance through their really impressive kind of achievements as

452
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: little people. They just learned how to do things just

453
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 2: really at a high level early on, and got so

454
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,959
Speaker 2: much great feedback from this that they kind of mixed

455
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 2: up love with success. So they are walking around really

456
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 2: trying to maintain this sense of value for themselves. The

457
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: sense of success. Yeah, everything to do with what they

458
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 2: what they do, instead of who they are.

459
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: Oh it's so interesting. I love when we go through

460
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: these because you know, as you say the description of

461
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: each one or the core feir, I'm thinking of the

462
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: people in my life that have these numbers and if

463
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,959
Speaker 1: anyone out there is a three or knows a three.

464
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: One of the things that I think I struggle with

465
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: my three friends the most is I'm like, Okay, you

466
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: seem exhausted. You need to take a break. Like that

467
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: sounds really easy to me to be like, Okay, I'm overloaded.

468
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: Now I have to take a break like those I

469
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: don't know if I would say it's easy, because I

470
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: struggle with that in the past. But like I can

471
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: see where those two things make sense. And I watched

472
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: my friends. They were threes really really struggle to lay

473
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: all the things down, like it's actually seems virtually impossible

474
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: for them a lot of times. But if they're equating

475
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: it to their love and value. I can see why,

476
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: you know, because they I would think somewhere in their

477
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,959
Speaker 1: brain a three's story might be something like, if I

478
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: don't do this, then I lose all my love in

479
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: my life.

480
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 2: Right, It's so interesting. I just had a client earlier

481
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 2: that or I guess yesterday, and who was a Type three,

482
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: and it was fascinating. She was saying, you know, she

483
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: has not connected to any type of passion of her

484
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 2: own since high school because it's like she was cut

485
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 2: off from this part of her that wanted to dream

486
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: and be creative and have passion because she just was

487
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 2: such an achiever and you know, coming from a family

488
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 2: with high expectations, high standards, and this client is not old,

489
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 2: you know, but like for the past fifteen years she

490
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: has been living out of this drive to succeed, succeed,

491
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: succeed well as you can imagine. Speaking of fear, she's

492
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: really hitting this place of kind of panic because she

493
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: can't do that. You can't maintain that humans ertainable. No

494
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 2: meant we're not meant to maintain that. It's unsustainable. And

495
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 2: so so a lot of the work with Type threes

496
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: is going into that fear but what does it feel

497
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: like to just be here? Terrifying? For a three, they

498
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 2: are so identified by what they do, just sitting here

499
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: as a human being is really uncomfortable. But it's going

500
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 2: into that fear. It's just slowly creeping in and saying

501
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna I'm gonna babystep this thing. I'm gonna

502
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 2: tiptoe in.

503
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that goes back to sort of

504
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: what we were saying at the beginning about when people

505
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: ask me, well, why would you even go do all

506
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: this stuff? Like it seems painful? It's like you're fine whatever,

507
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: But are you first of all? And then second of all,

508
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: Like I think the question to always look at with

509
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: this fear driven stuff is, yes, you can still continue

510
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: to live with your fear driving you, but at what cost?

511
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: Like at what cost are we letting the fear drive

512
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: us by not facing it, by not sitting with ourselves,

513
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: Like what kind of quality of life do we feel

514
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: like we have? And is that worth it? Ultimately? Really,

515
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: on your deathbed, are you going to be like, gush,

516
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that I you know, Like, what's gonna matter?

517
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: I guess those are the kind of questions I've been

518
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: asking myself.

519
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I have this little crochete. It's this hilarious

520
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 2: little thing that's framed out in the kitchen area of

521
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 2: my private practice, and it says, deal with your shit,

522
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: or your ship will deal with you.

523
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: It's so true. Right, you can't run it. It's gonna

524
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: come up.

525
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 2: Right.

526
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: We surely try, though we do.

527
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: And threes. It's hard for threes because they they literally

528
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 2: oftentimes they're so good at what they do and they

529
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: look good doing it. Yes, it's so annoying, it's but

530
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: it's it's like they are those people that are on

531
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: the beach with their families on vacation and they've got

532
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: their laptops and they've they're their devices and they're taking call.

533
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 2: You know, just it's just an extension of who they

534
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: are because it's just been what it's been, the water

535
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: they swim in for so long. Yeah, it's so hard

536
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 2: to disconnect and slow, slow down and move closer to

537
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 2: that fear of what does it feel like to sit

538
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: in this moment and.

539
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: Just be probably, who am I? If I sit in

540
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: this moment and just be totally all right? I'm kind

541
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: of touched on fours a little bit. But is there

542
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: anything we've missed with the force.

543
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 2: Something that's really interesting about the four story, this wounding

544
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: kind of story is again this like early, early kind

545
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,479
Speaker 2: of perceived experience of loss of love. So there's just

546
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: something that happened, Like for me, I was really little

547
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: my grandmother. I was so close to her. She was

548
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: like in the second mom she lived with us. We

549
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 2: had this just special bond. I was about four or five.

550
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: She had breast cancer and she died at fifty eight,

551
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: and nobody explained it to me. I just it's like

552
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 2: one day she was there and then we were like

553
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 2: playing with her wigs, and then the next day she

554
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 2: wasn't there, and so I just was. I just felt like,

555
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, there's such a loss here. This larger

556
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 2: than life, beautiful person in my life is no longer.

557
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 2: And then that feeling of kind of introspection that we

558
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 2: do all the time aspores is like, well, maybe maybe

559
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,439
Speaker 2: I had something to do with this. No. So there

560
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 2: that's where this kind of this narrative of deficiency comes

561
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: into play, right, And so we do we spend a

562
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 2: ton of time trying to reverse this scenario by showing

563
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: up as really special and trying to find that ideal

564
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: person or relationship that will kind of repair this this

565
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: broken union with love.

566
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: Also, I wonder if any other fours are like me.

567
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,439
Speaker 1: But I am like I always want to if someone

568
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: tells me anything about myself, I'm like, huh is that true?

569
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: And I want to I like deep dive into every

570
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: facet of myself. You know. Like my friends kind of

571
00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: have a joke about how much self work and introspection

572
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 1: and all of the stuff that I do. It's like

573
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: I find it fascinating, But I wonder how much of

574
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: it is like an internal drive of so I can

575
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: fix myself so that I can be loved, do you

576
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like that's just a real honest like.

577
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 2: But well, and that's it's such a comfortable place for

578
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: us to sit with those kind of difficult emotions to go.

579
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 2: You know.

580
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, they don't scare me at all. Like

581
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: people are like I never want to feel sad. I'm like,

582
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: oh really, I don't really, it just is I don't.

583
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, I was life beyond sadness. Yeah, I completely

584
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 2: identify with that. It's it's always been such a such

585
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 2: a like fluid space for me to be in as

586
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 2: a client in therapy, and as a therapist, it's like

587
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 2: nothing shocks me, you.

588
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: Know, right right, So I resonate with that. All right,

589
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: let's move to our fives.

590
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 2: So fives they fear being kind of useless and incompetent

591
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 2: and helpless. This drives a whole lot of their self sufficiency.

592
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 2: Fives are known as the investigator or the observer, and

593
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 2: they're just this type. My husband's a five, and they

594
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: are more at home studying and learning about any type

595
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: of topic from the cosmos to technology, to the animal

596
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: kingdom to current events. I mean, they're just they just

597
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 2: kind of hoover up information and knowledge in order for

598
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 2: them to feel safe and self sufficient. And so a

599
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 2: lot of times I hear that type fives early on

600
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: had this experience of being neglected or either engulfed by

601
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: their caregivers that they really needed in order to survive,

602
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 2: and so they just kind of in order to get by,

603
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: they did what they could with the little they had, right,

604
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 2: they became incredibly self sufficient, and that kind of drives

605
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 2: a whole lot of the stinginess that people experience with

606
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 2: Type fives, sometimes emotionally even materialistically. And it also explains

607
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 2: why type fives are often some of the most emotionally

608
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 2: cut off people from themselves and from other people in relationships.

609
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:38,439
Speaker 2: So again they're trying to avoid the fear of kind

610
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: of being helpless, like they have felt early on.

611
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 1: If they have all the information themselves, then they can

612
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: remain self sufficient and not rely on anyone else.

613
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: That's it, Okay, It's so funny. My husband I joke

614
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: with them all the time. He has like a backup

615
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,439
Speaker 2: of every single thing that we own in the house.

616
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 2: It's because if we lose power, we got to have

617
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 2: not just one generator but two. You know.

618
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: It's like, nah, he's always prepared.

619
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,479
Speaker 2: He's always prepared. A lot of six going on there.

620
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 2: But there's just this kind of driving fear of I

621
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 2: really cannot count on anybody but myself, and that's why

622
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 2: I'm going to learn everything. Fives can spend more time

623
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 2: alone than any other type, even more than you and

624
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 2: I as fours. They need so much privacy and solitude,

625
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 2: and as a result, they end up being these incredible innovators.

626
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: They come up with just incredible inventions. Bill Gates, Stephen Hawking,

627
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 2: like Mark Zuckerberg, all these types of people who have

628
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 2: contributed so much to our culture through science and technology

629
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 2: and all the things. But fascinating people five, sixes, and

630
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 2: sevens kind of they live in the fear triad or

631
00:38:55,080 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 2: the head triad. So fear is even more of a

632
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 2: very prominent part of their kind of defensive structure.

633
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: Because that end of the head translated to more fear based.

634
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: That makes total sense because and we'll move on to

635
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: six with this statement, but like six is are known

636
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: to be the most fear driven number, Yeah, all of them, right,

637
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: So the five, six, and seven they operate from their head,

638
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: and so that's just like what over analyzing things like.

639
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 2: That, planning, analyzing, you know, strategizing, all of these kind

640
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 2: of faculties that the analytical mind is so experienced and

641
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: of with. And so that is their dominant intelligence center.

642
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,919
Speaker 2: Whereas for you and me, as four as two threes

643
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 2: and four is really we operate out of our heart intelligence,

644
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 2: our feelings. Some people call the shame triad. I think

645
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 2: it's sadness and grief that really kind of is the

646
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 2: dominant emotion, the go to emotion. And then for eight,

647
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 2: nine and ones, it's anger. So that's kind of that

648
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,760
Speaker 2: anger triad. That makes sense because that's the body triad. Right,

649
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,760
Speaker 2: So anyway, not to derail us, but yes, so sixes

650
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 2: are kind of at the core, they're kind of the

651
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: prototypical fear type of all types. And listen, I believe

652
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 2: that we are still around as a species because of

653
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 2: type sixes. Okay, you know, like they have been the

654
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 2: ones if you think about kind of this herd mentality,

655
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: they have been the people drive in the pack. They

656
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 2: are always on the lookout for any type of danger.

657
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 2: Their fear is a being without support and guidance, okay,

658
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 2: and so they are always always looking to solve problems.

659
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 2: But what happens for type sixes is that they also

660
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: as good problem solvers, they become problem seekers.

661
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 1: I love that the way you just said that, because

662
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of the sixes in my life and I'm like,

663
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 1: but don't they create problems too? Because I'm literally talking

664
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: to them sometimes and I'm like, this isn't a problem.

665
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: What are you what? They're like pre thinking a problem

666
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: that's not even there yet.

667
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 2: Totally and as little people. Six is really describe being

668
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 2: in kind of ongoing threatening situations.

669
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 1: Okay.

670
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 2: So a great example is like having an alcoholic parent, Yeah,

671
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 2: and not having like I mean literally having such an

672
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 2: anxious attachment. You know, you're like, I don't know, I

673
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 2: don't know what's going to happen when this person comes home,

674
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: and so of course there's a lot of pain around that.

675
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:53,240
Speaker 2: So you know, six is are just constantly looking depending

676
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 2: on subtype. Subtypes for sixes are very very glaringly different

677
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 2: as they are kind of with fours. But you know,

678
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 2: they're looking to create as much safety for themselves, to

679
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 2: have guidance, to have safety and security, and they do that.

680
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 2: If they're kind of the phobic kind of classic sixes,

681
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 2: they go they run away from the fear, and they're

682
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 2: the counterphobic, which is the sexual six or the one

683
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 2: to one six, they kind of go against the fear

684
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 2: in order to feel safe and secure.

685
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: What do you mean against it?

686
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,439
Speaker 2: So if you think about fight or flight, the fight

687
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 2: mechanism is a byproduct of that fear. Right, the fear

688
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 2: the signaling and we can either fight or we can

689
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 2: run like hell in the other right. Yeah, So the

690
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 2: kind of the one to one six is they are

691
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 2: very much going against that fear. They're not afraid to

692
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 2: fight it, but the fear is still there. The social

693
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 2: and the self pres sixes are more in the kind

694
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: of flee and freeze, so they kind of look more

695
00:42:58,520 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 2: like classic sixes.

696
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: I just experienced a lot of hypervigilance with my friends

697
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: in our sixes. So what like just I'm thinking specifically

698
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 1: of two of my friends, and I want to be

699
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 1: able to give them some positive like insight into this.

700
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: But what would be a way for a six to

701
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: lay down some of the spear because it's so much

702
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 1: a part of their personality.

703
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 2: A couple things. I think having a spiritual practice of

704
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 2: some type, developing kind of this inner security, knowing that

705
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 2: there is something out in the world that's bigger and

706
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: better than me, that is calling the shots, whatever that

707
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 2: higher power is. I think, developing some type of faith practice,

708
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 2: some type of spiritual practice that can really support them

709
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 2: in their fear necessarily numb the fear. But I also

710
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 2: think for for six is I do think what you're

711
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 2: doing getting into the body, Yeah, because a lot of times,

712
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 2: you know, fear, our bodies hold more memory than our

713
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 2: thinking minds.

714
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: You know, my thinking mind have been over all the

715
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: stuff that I'm talking about for a while, right, but

716
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: my body can't get over it, and so then it

717
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: brings it back to surface in my mind, and I

718
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: can like logically go, oh no, that's not true, that's

719
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: not true. But until your body believes it, the fear

720
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: is still there and it's still driving so much of

721
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: your life.

722
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 2: Totally Doing some type of body work or somatic practice

723
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: is huge. Even just movement. Yeah, getting out of the

724
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 2: head into the body, Like, there's just I mean a

725
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 2: lot of us do from time to time just live

726
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 2: from the neck up and so really accessing the present moment.

727
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 2: You know, we can't be anywhere else but here if

728
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 2: we're really in our bodies. Sure, and so I think

729
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 2: that's huge. I think too. I Mean this sounds kind

730
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: of simplistic, but I really think Type sixes do really

731
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 2: well with some type of gratitude practice. I like to

732
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 2: tell my Type six clients, you know, if you're gonna

733
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 2: go to worst case scenario, do me a favor and

734
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 2: also go to best case scenario. Just balance it out

735
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 2: a little bit.

736
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:16,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, write down all the bad things, but then write

737
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 1: down the good things too.

738
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

739
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: I love that. All right, let's go to seven enthusiast sevens.

740
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, sevens. You would not really think of as being fearful.

741
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: No, not at all. I don't know, it's want to

742
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: have fun.

743
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: I know, they're just so bubbly and just magnetic and exuberant.

744
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 2: And they are that way because they're so afraid of

745
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 2: being trapped or in pain. Okay, so they've had to

746
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 2: become that way. Young sevens often describe a really difficult

747
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: relationship with one parental figure who is really dominating, really overbearing,

748
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 2: really stern. A lot of times this was this is

749
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 2: the maternal parent, this is the mother figure. And so

750
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: they kind of have this belief that this authority, this

751
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 2: this just dominating presence of authority limits them, takes certain

752
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,240
Speaker 2: choices away, and so they believe that kind of authority

753
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: equals limitations. So what do they do. They kind of

754
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 2: keep things really up and open. Growing up. They try

755
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 2: to have no limitations. They try to as many choices

756
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 2: as possible, lots of options, right, Yeah, it's funny. It's

757
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 2: kind of why I wait to teach type seven till

758
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 2: the very end of any kind of like Enneagram class

759
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 2: or talk I get, because sevens it's hard for them

760
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 2: to sit still and listen to all the other types.

761
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 2: They're like, Okay, we just did my type, let's go

762
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: get brunch the next and so they just again, they

763
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 2: just have the fear that's driving them is they don't

764
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 2: want to feel trapped, you know, it's the need to

765
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 2: avoid pain. And so that's what sevens do. And I

766
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 2: think the thing that kind of that, you know, the

767
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 2: passion of type seven is gluttony, and so it's not

768
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 2: necessarily about food, but it's just it's like more is better,

769
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 2: like or options, more this, more that. And so really

770
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: part of the work is kind of reeling it in

771
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 2: a little bit and learning how to sit in the

772
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 2: present moment with whatever comes up and not try to

773
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 2: reframe or not try to find the silver lining, but

774
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 2: to just sit really literally to sit with the fear

775
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 2: of being trapped, of being without options, of being in pain.

776
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: But see, okay, so if I'm a seven from what

777
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: you just described, I'd be like and why would I

778
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 1: want to do that? Like what so why would a seven?

779
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: How would it be manifesting in their life that if

780
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 1: they were operating from this sphere and not ever sitting

781
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 1: like you're talking about, Like, what are some ways that

782
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: we would see examples of this playing out in a

783
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:07,399
Speaker 1: seven's life.

784
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 2: They become unhinged.

785
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: Meaning a pretney spears, shaver head moment or yeah.

786
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 2: Right, maybe they go off the rails. Okay, they can't

787
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,760
Speaker 2: commit in relationships, they can't finish a project at work,

788
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 2: they don't like anyone to expect anything from them. They

789
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 2: you know, run through their inheritance, money, whatever the thing is.

790
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 2: It's like go big or go home. At some point,

791
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 2: the party's got to stop a lot of times. You

792
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 2: know this, the invitation for sevens is sobriety. Not that

793
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 2: you know, sevens are all dealing with addiction necessarily, but

794
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 2: that is a big way that it does manifest.

795
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: I was just thinking that as you're describing it, because yeah,

796
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: you just want to run. If you want to run

797
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: from pain, you've got to find ways to do that.

798
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: So imagine addiction is a big part of sevens.

799
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 2: And they go so fast. I think that's the difference

800
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 2: between sevens and nine because nines want to avoid two.

801
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 2: Seven's really like their energy is so up, they have

802
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 2: their it's so high. But you know, I think too,

803
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 2: it's like I would say, really famous people that are

804
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: have been type sevens, you know, somebody like Robin Williams.

805
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 2: It's kind of the ultimate death right.

806
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you go so.

807
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 2: Hard and you become so disconnected from the truth of

808
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 2: who you are, but making everybody laugh and deep, deep,

809
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 2: deep depression that's happening inside that just becomes I mean

810
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 2: you literally become you're living out of two kind of

811
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 2: two different lives, and they're just too polar, right. So,

812
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 2: I mean I think that you know, sevens oftentimes will

813
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 2: have failed marriages, they'll have you know, job bloss they'll

814
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 2: have problems with substance, just kind of have this kind

815
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 2: of trail of flakiness, like flaky behavior and relationships. And

816
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 2: you know, after so much of that, you've got to

817
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 2: kind of like bring the mirror front and center and

818
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 2: kind of look at look at those blind spots that

819
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 2: are really driving the show.

820
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: If you want a fulfilling life, probably yeah, and see

821
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: like you know that Jim Carrey moment and Dumb and

822
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 1: Dummer where he's got his hands in his ears and

823
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 1: he's like a la la la la la, like I

824
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: don't want to listen. That's what I imagine A seven

825
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 1: would be doing right now.

826
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, one of my best friends is a seven.

827
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 2: It's so cool because I'm so proud of her. She's

828
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 2: doing She's done so much deep work throughout the years

829
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 2: she's a teacher of mine, spiritual teacher and other realms too.

830
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 2: But you know, she's really like moving to that five

831
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 2: point of going into this place of studying this really

832
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,439
Speaker 2: cool new program that she's doing getting a master's and

833
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 2: like she's just going in there and doing the sitting,

834
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 2: and she's got a big, big, heavy load, and she's

835
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 2: like a typical like a seven who has not done

836
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 2: their work would just be like dip in and out

837
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 2: of that because you know it's too demanding. But so

838
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: it's just such a picture of somebody who you know

839
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 2: is such an evolved type seven and can really like

840
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 2: sit in the weeds of Yeah, yeah, hammered out.

841
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,879
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about eights, because I find this one

842
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 1: to be a really fascinating number to talk about fear

843
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: with because what an eight, in my interpretation of an

844
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: eight and eight would not want you to know they're

845
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: scared of anything?

846
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, so true. I mean, I think one of

847
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 2: the words that people really kind of often use to

848
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 2: describe eight's is fearless. They just show up in the

849
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 2: world like that, they but they do. They do fear

850
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 2: being weak, They fear being controlled by other people. A

851
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 2: lot of eights describe their early childhood having some type

852
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 2: of like combative relationship or conflict where they had to

853
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 2: grow up super super young. I have a client who

854
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 2: is a Type eight, and she remembers being like seven

855
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 2: and and her mom was kind of checked out, and

856
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 2: they had she had a cousin that came to live

857
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 2: with her who was like special needs or just really

858
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 2: rambunctious and behaviorally a challenge. And so my client remembers, like,

859
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 2: and the mom couldn't handle it. The mom was like,

860
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 2: it's too much, I can't peace out, you know. So

861
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 2: she remembers when she was like seven or eight making

862
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 2: peanut butter and belly sandwiches for she and her cousin

863
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 2: to go to school with, and she couldn't even see

864
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 2: over the countertop.

865
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:02,240
Speaker 1: Wow.

866
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 2: So here she is filling in this kind of role

867
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 2: as mom, as a parent, way before she needed to.

868
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 2: That's a story that I hear in different kind of

869
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 2: you know, different flavors across the board with eights. You know,

870
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 2: they had to grow up way too young in order

871
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 2: to survive, so of course they have to disconnect with vulnerability.

872
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 2: They have to disconnect from that childhood innocence because that

873
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 2: would render them weak, and they don't have to be

874
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 2: in control all the time. They just they just don't

875
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 2: want you to control them. Like they don't always have

876
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 2: to be the one in control. They don't always have

877
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 2: to be the controlling you.

878
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 1: Okay, they just don't want to be controlled. So as

879
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: long as it's not impacting them in any way or

880
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 1: affecting them in any way, they don't really care.

881
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 2: It's not kind of cornering them. And again this is

882
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 2: we're talking kind of average levels of health for each

883
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 2: of them, right right, So in an average kind of space,

884
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 2: you know, type eights do not want they just don't

885
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 2: want to be controlled. They're not trying to control you necessarily.

886
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:11,800
Speaker 2: Maybe sometimes they are, but they just don't want to

887
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 2: be careful.

888
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 1: All the eights that I know are highly capable, So

889
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: that makes sense of like the growing up to fast,

890
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 1: and so they had to, like maybe am assuming, rely

891
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 1: on themselves a lot, and although become very capable in

892
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 1: taking care of them and then other people. And the

893
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 1: biggest struggle with my aides in my life has been

894
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:45,839
Speaker 1: this fear of vulnerability or appearing weak in any capacity.

895
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: And like you mentioned earlier, their fear though doesn't manifest

896
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,879
Speaker 1: in like a same way as a six, where they're

897
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,839
Speaker 1: hyper vigilant and worrying. But when I see an eight

898
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,359
Speaker 1: sphere kick in a lot of times, to me it

899
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,760
Speaker 1: comes out as anger and just like attack.

900
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's impulsive, instinctual, you know, because their body types

901
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 2: and they kind of overdo impact. They overdo their anger.

902
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 2: They tend to kind of move into action without even

903
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 2: thinking about the fear. It's there, but they're not sitting

904
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 2: They're not a head type that's sitting there thinking about

905
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 2: planning and strategizing to avoid the fear. They're just going

906
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 2: against it.

907
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: Right. My mom is an eight, and she always says

908
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 1: that eights are instead of ready aim fire, they're fire

909
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 1: ready aim like they think about it in a different way.

910
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 1: And that's been my experience is that if an eight

911
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 1: is triggered, they go into attack mode without really thinking

912
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: about all of the other things or even like, hey,

913
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 1: maybe this is fear driving me or not reality, you know,

914
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:53,720
Speaker 1: like if it feels real to them, if the threat

915
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 1: is real, they are reacting unless they get to a

916
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 1: healthier place. But yes, it seems to be the case.

917
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 2: Well, and a lot of people think of type eight's

918
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 2: as protectors. So if it's not self protection, it's others protection.

919
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 2: So there's a lot. I mean, I think eights are

920
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 2: just fierce protectors.

921
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, so if.

922
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 2: There is injustice or something happening, like they are, they

923
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 2: are on the front lines. Just like your mom said,

924
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 2: you know, it's they're already there. You know, they're not

925
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 2: sitting back there trying to figure out the best plan

926
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 2: of attack. They're just already there. And yeah, like you said,

927
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 2: they're they have more energy than any other type mm hmm.

928
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 2: They're tireless people, but you know, you can only run

929
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 2: from vulnerability so long.

930
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 1: Like, well, I was just going to ask that question

931
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 1: because when you said they're they have the most energy,

932
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 1: the immediate thought that I had was again, I'm talking

933
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 1: about my mom, who she is a very She's done

934
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 1: a lot of work on herself, so we're we're able

935
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 1: to talk about kind of these things because as a

936
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,839
Speaker 1: four and an eight, she and I, but it has

937
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 1: a lot with me growing up because we're so different

938
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: and the fours we are such feelers, right like I

939
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 1: can get into every emotion and I can feel it

940
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,479
Speaker 1: really deeply, and an eight kind of might struggle there.

941
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: And then my mom when she retired, was kind of

942
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 1: just facing like that life changed thing. There was a

943
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: lot of grief. She's been in her position a long time,

944
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: all the people she was leaving, and she said to me,

945
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I am so exhausted after this week

946
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 1: of like going through these retirement celebrations and all of

947
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: the sudden, she was like, is this what you feel

948
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: like all the time? And I thought, yes, that is it,

949
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: because I'm carrying not only like my feelings, but others

950
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 1: feelings you know as well. But I'd wondered how much

951
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: of an eight's energy is because they're shut off from

952
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: their vulnerability.

953
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I love that story. I think too.

954
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 2: They're they're the doers of the enneagram. Their body tech, right,

955
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 2: A lot of this is kind of almost like wiring.

956
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:59,439
Speaker 2: It's their makeup. They had to move into action from

957
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 2: such an earth early age, so their tolerance is a

958
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 2: little bit bigger than the rest are. Yeah, and they're

959
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 2: used to such a high level, you know, because it's

960
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 2: it's all about impact. It's all about kind of challenging

961
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 2: the system. That takes a lot of strength, that takes

962
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 2: a lot of effort, And for whatever reason, I do

963
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 2: believe that there's something to that. As a body type,

964
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 2: they are just their energy is relentless. Yeah, and I

965
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 2: think that's a great point, you know, not going into

966
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:38,440
Speaker 2: deep emotions of sadness and fear and shame and guilt.

967
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 2: I mean that that does free up a hell of

968
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 2: a lot of energy to go.

969
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: To things, I mean, to your Yeah, an interesting thought.

970
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 1: All right, let's wrap this up and talk about our nines.

971
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 1: The Peacemakers nines are a lot like twos in many ways,

972
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 1: but definitely in their fears.

973
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 2: It's all about this loss of connection. They had this

974
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 2: early interestingly enough, this early experience where their opinions didn't matter,

975
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 2: they weren't heard, and so perhaps there were siblings who

976
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 2: were a lot louder, or more opinionated, or more fiery,

977
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 2: and so they learned to regulate and to keep calm.

978
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 2: They had to go along with what everybody else wanted

979
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 2: to do, and that was kind of their survival because

980
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 2: their moo, it's all about like, let's keep the peace right, peace,

981
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 2: and there's not peace around me. So in order to

982
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 2: have peace, to order to be connected in relationship, I

983
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 2: have got to keep the peace. And so I am

984
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 2: going to deny myself my own agenda, and just merge

985
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 2: with the agenda of other people. That fear of loss

986
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 2: and connection is really kind of manifests in there's this

987
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 2: word indolence. It's kind of the fixation of type nines,

988
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 2: and it basically it's just kind of like, oh, I'm fine.

989
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:16,920
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's good, We're good, life is good. Oh

990
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 2: we don't, we don't, we don't really need to talk

991
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 2: about that. It's it's kind of the self deprecating energy

992
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 2: that kind of downplays everything.

993
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:29,960
Speaker 1: And we're even in touch with what they're feeling or

994
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 1: are they just trying to get out of that? Like

995
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 1: does that make a lot of.

996
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 2: Times No, the fear is driving the show of you

997
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 2: know this, the fear of loss or disconnection. It shows

998
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 2: up in the passion. It manifests in this pattern of laziness.

999
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 2: And it's not necessarily physical laziness, but it is when

1000
01:00:55,480 --> 01:01:00,120
Speaker 2: the energy is on everybody else and the house and

1001
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 2: the dog and the you know the schedule and you

1002
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 2: know the trip, they are full throttle. Yeah, but the

1003
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 2: energy and the focus when the focus of a contention

1004
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 2: comes back to the nine, when they are the focus

1005
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 2: of attention, their energy is way down. That's where some

1006
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 2: of that laziness comes in. And you know, they grow

1007
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 2: up with this belief that you know, their presence doesn't matter.

1008
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 2: Everyone else's presence is is louder. So sometimes they have

1009
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 2: a lot of trouble kind of finding their own voice

1010
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 2: because if they were to voice their own opinion or

1011
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 2: have a strong opinion, that might result in disconnection and relationship.

1012
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 1: So that's their main fear is being disconnected in the relationship.

1013
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 1: So they will just almost become not a human in

1014
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 1: the way of like their's feelings and opinions and all

1015
01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 1: the things, just to keep the peace so that they

1016
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: can stay in the relationship.

1017
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of Type nines see stay in long

1018
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 2: term relationships way past the expiration date. They're so afraid

1019
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 2: that they're going to hurt the other person.

1020
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 1: So what for type nines, Like, what tips would you

1021
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 1: have with this stuff? Because the Nines that I know,

1022
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 1: I find it it's almost crippling to them to step

1023
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 1: outside of the sphere and they just don't want to

1024
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: at all.

1025
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 2: Well, doing self work is really important for type nines. Okay,

1026
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 2: bringing the focus of.

1027
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 1: Energy, oh, because then they have to look at.

1028
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 2: Themselves right and it's you know, there are some nines

1029
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 2: that it's a long road in therapy because you have

1030
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:52,000
Speaker 2: to acclimate them to their kind of interior space. Right.

1031
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 2: It's because their energy is just like merging all over

1032
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 2: the place with the people, yeah, really connecting them to

1033
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 2: do they need?

1034
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1035
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 2: What do they want? You know? Sometimes the hardest question

1036
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 2: for type nine is how are you? You know, it's

1037
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:15,240
Speaker 2: because it's like, oh, I think I'm okay. You know,

1038
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 2: they're just their focus is on others all the time,

1039
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 2: and so I think it's bringing the focus of attention

1040
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 2: back to themselves, you know, and it's taking action. I

1041
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 2: think you know that for a Type nine, it doesn't

1042
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:33,919
Speaker 2: have to be massive action, but it has to be

1043
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 2: some type of small action in the right direction. Otherwise

1044
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 2: they just kind of numb out in order to just

1045
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:47,560
Speaker 2: because they fall asleep to their own agenda. Yeah, it's

1046
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:51,440
Speaker 2: all about other people's agendas. So you know, like I

1047
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 2: always let my Type nine friends pick the place that

1048
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 2: we're going to go eat dinner, you know, because otherwise

1049
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 2: they'd just be like, oh, whatever's fine, I'm good with whatever. No, really, no,

1050
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 2: it's your yeah, like you pick the place we're doing this.

1051
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:07,240
Speaker 2: That can be really hard, but it can be a

1052
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 2: good exercise for type nines.

1053
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: Oh isn't it true about type nines that they miss

1054
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 1: type pretty often? Like it for I've known nines to

1055
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 1: be like the one who has tested as multiple different

1056
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,680
Speaker 1: types and then someone's finally like, no, you're.

1057
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:24,680
Speaker 2: A nine totally.

1058
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 1: But nines are so out of touch with themselves maybe

1059
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:30,440
Speaker 1: in their own feelings, that that makes sense.

1060
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. I think that's pretty true.

1061
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 2: I mean I see so many people mistyped walking around,

1062
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 2: mistyped because they've just taken a free test online. They

1063
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 2: haven't done the self work to really verify it for themselves.

1064
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 2: So I see so many people misstyped anyway, But definitely

1065
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 2: mines and two because they're very open, kind of curious

1066
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 2: people like they're like, yeah, it could be true, and

1067
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 2: that could be true. Like they right, Like they're also

1068
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 2: called the mediators, so they can see all the sides. Yeah,

1069
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 2: so sometimes it can take them a little bit longer

1070
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 2: to really know their definitive type. I think you're right.

1071
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 1: Well, this is fascinating to me. So if you guys

1072
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 1: have any more questions about the core fears, Katie, where

1073
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:23,040
Speaker 1: is a good place for people to reach out to you.

1074
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 2: A good place is my website, probably Katiegustafsen dot Co.

1075
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 2: Probably Instagram is where I interact the most in terms

1076
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:35,960
Speaker 2: of social media, be bad at all the others, but

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Speaker 2: estay consistent on Instagram. And then I have an online

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01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 2: membership platform called The Practice, and it is an Enneagram

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01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 2: based self care toolkit that is all about helping you

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01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:56,520
Speaker 2: learn more about yourself, have more compassion for yourself, and

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01:05:56,560 --> 01:06:01,919
Speaker 2: put the Enneagram into practice through really specific self care

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01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 2: practices for your type.

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Speaker 1: I will put all that info in the description of

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01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:10,280
Speaker 1: this podcast. For you guys, go check out Katie's page Instagram,

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01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 1: The Practice all of the things. Katie. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being here with us today.

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Speaker 2: You friends, this has been fun. You know I could

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01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 2: talk about this.

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Speaker 1: Forever kinda me. See, we're such a Nagram nerds, aren't we.

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Speaker 1: Thank you guys for listening.