WEBVTT - Weekend Listen: Lynsey Addario Keeps Going Back to Photograph War 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:08.920 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. A note before we 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:13.960 start that this conversation includes an account of abduction, violence, 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:18.119 and sexual assault that some listeners may find distressing. 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:22.759 We went on daily patrols six seven hours a day. 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:25.639 We were shot at, ambushed, and then we had to 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:27.160 jump out of black hawks in the middle of the 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:29.480 night into the heart of Tulliban Territory. 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:37.080 Lindsay Adario Pulitzerprise winning photographer and chronicler of the extreme 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:38.320 and the every day. 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:41.920 My job is to bear witness to everything that happens 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:47.320 in conflict zones. Women continue to deliver babies, I see marriages, divorce, 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:48.840 I see death and life. 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:50.080 Do you love the job? 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:53.920 It's something that I do from my heart and my soul. 0:00:55.680 --> 0:01:00.600 From Bloomberg Weekend. This is the Michelle Hussein Show. I'm 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:08.800 Michelle Hussein. There have been times in my professional life 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:11.520 when I've had to take a flat jacket and body 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.520 armor with me on assignment. Not that I've ever been 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:17.360 a war reporter, but there are places I've needed to 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.640 go to which carried risk and you always need to 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:24.280 be prepared. Whenever I saw that kit in the hallway 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:27.960 before a trip, I always felt a moment of gratitude 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:32.600 that this wasn't part of my everyday work. For Lindsaya Dario, 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:36.839 though it is. She's an award winning photographer who's worked 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:42.080 in war zones from Afghanistan and Ukraine to Sudan. Sometimes 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:46.000 it's the writer the correspondent traveling with her who ends 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.600 up getting more of the attention from an assignment, but 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:54.080 it's Lindsay's pictures which bring their words to life. Some 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:56.520 years ago, she wrote her own book about the places 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:03.080 she's been, the extreme situations she's experienced, including being kidnapped twice, 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:08.480 once in Iraq and once in Libya. If you're thinking 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.080 there aren't many women in this field, you'd be right, 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:14.079 and that's part of why there's a new documentary about 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:19.840 her on Disney Plus. Intriguingly, it's called Love and War, 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:23.680 which is why when we spoke, I asked her, how 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:25.760 does love come into it? 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:31.359 Love comes into it in the balance of my family. 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:34.079 You have war, and then you come home to this 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.520 sort of nest of love with my children and my husband, 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:41.160 also my sisters and my parents. But I think also 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:45.160 the thing about war is that you see these incredible 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:51.720 scenes of love and generosity and kindness and selflessness alongside brutality. 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:54.800 Of course, you get a sense of love that actually 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:57.799 sort of binds people in these horrific moments. 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:02.200 You've witnessed birth, You've certainly witnessed death, You've witnessed grief. 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:04.560 All of this is part of what you do. 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:07.440 Yeah, I mean, my job is to bear witness to 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:11.080 everything that happens in conflict zones and also outside of 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:16.240 conflict zones. And so I'm seeing daily life continue under 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:21.000 these very difficult circumstances. So that means, yes, women continue 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:25.320 to deliver babies. You know, I see marriages, I see divorce, 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:27.919 I see everything. I see death and life. 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:30.640 Do you love the job? Is that also part of 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:31.560 the love that's in this? 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.160 I mean, I don't think anyone could cover war without 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.760 loving the job. It's something that I do from my 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.840 heart and my soul. It's something that I do because 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:42.680 I believe in it. 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:46.720 Going back in time, I wondered if we could talk 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:50.640 about two turning points. I think they're turning points, the 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:54.200 first of which is nine to eleven, and you're already 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:57.000 working as a photographer. But is that the moment where 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:58.720 you become a war photographer? 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.920 Yeah? So I was photographing for many years, and then 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.760 I moved to India in two thousand and in India, 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:10.040 I started becoming aware of women's issues in Afghanistan. 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.200 It's not about how to come to power exactly, as 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:14.200 of being restricted exactly, and. 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:16.400 So I was reading about that, and I was reading 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:19.840 a lot about women's issues in Afghanistan, and as a 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:22.640 young woman, I was curious, you know, what to Afghan 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:25.960 women think? Not necessarily what does the West think of 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.960 what Afghan women must feel, but what do they actually think? 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.839 And so I went to Afghanistan as I was twenty 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:36.440 six years old, and I borrowed money from my sister 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.800 and I started doing a lot of reporting and photographing 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:42.800 what I could of women living under the Taliban and 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:47.200 I ended up making three trips to Afghanistan before September eleventh. 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:50.960 So when September eleventh happened and the US was gearing 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.880 up for war in Afghanistan, it felt very natural for 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:57.440 me to go there because I was already quite familiar 0:04:57.480 --> 0:04:59.200 with it and so had. 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:01.040 A hot time. Hadn't you se selling those pictures? 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:01.360 Yeah? 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:02.000 I couldn't give. 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:03.280 Them away, I mean is interesting. 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:06.720 No one was interested because it was before September eleventh, 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:10.400 and very few journalists were actually working in Afghanistan at 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:14.839 the time. Photography was illegal under the Taliban, So the 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:19.200 La Times published some pictures, but really it was difficult 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:20.240 to get them published. 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:23.440 And that all changed suddenly with international interest in the 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.160 country absolutely nine to eleven. And was there a sense 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:32.000 of excitemental thrill then for you that new opportunities are dawning. 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.960 Well, I think after September eleventh what became exciting for 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.039 me is that I had this knowledge that I had 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:42.240 procured on my own, and then suddenly it was relevant 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.200 on a world stage. And so the New York Times 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.760 sent me on my first big assignment for them, which 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:51.600 was covering Pakistan leading up to the fall of the Taliban, 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.120 and then the New York Times magazine put me on 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.640 assignment to do the Women of Jihad, and so I 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:00.800 started working pretty consistently for the New York Times then. 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:03.159 But that's when you guess you have to learn that 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:06.680 there are risks involved in your work, right, You start 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.200 to have to evaluate that, like covering a war is 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:12.880 something completely different to you at that stage. 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.720 Absolutely, at that time, there were suicide bombers, there were 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:21.000 smaller scale attacks. The US started bombing Afghanistan, and then 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:23.640 we had to navigate how to go in. There was 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.920 a whole you know, when do you go into a 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.279 country when the government or the taller bomb was falling. 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:32.760 You know, when is it safe to actually move into 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:35.839 a place that's very hostile? And so it's always a 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:38.880 learning curve. You know. Now with Ukraine it's drones, and 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:41.000 so I think it's ever evolving. 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:44.400 The other turning point I wondered about in your career 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.560 was Iraq in two thousand and four, because you had 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.760 the first of your abduction kidnap experiences. Then take me 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:55.080 back to that time and that place, the really chaotic 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:59.799 period after the US invasion, the year afterwards, I mean even. 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:03.640 Leading up to the US invasion, when I was offered 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:07.039 to go into Iraq, I didn't think. I really wasn't 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:09.600 sure I could handle a military mbed. At that point, 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.320 I had never been in combat. I was offered a 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:14.640 position with one hundred and first Airborne. I did not 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:15.200 take it. 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:17.480 So why did you think you couldn't handle it? 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.240 Because I was a woman. I didn't know if I'd 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:22.960 be physically fit enough, if i'd be as strong as 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.520 the man I was going in with. I didn't know 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:28.400 what it would feel like to be under fire, because 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:30.720 even though I covered the fall of the Taliban, it 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.200 was not combat. This is going to be frontline, yeah, 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:38.240 And I really didn't want to be responsible for holding 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:41.200 anyone up or being scared or I just wasn't sure 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.440 how I would respond. And so I ended up going 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:48.960 into northern Iraq from Iran, and many journalists did, and 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.600 we were sort of covering the Kurdish territory and there 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:55.720 was a proxy war. It was Lansar fighting US forces 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:59.120 backed by Kurdish special forces, and it was there that 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.400 I was in my first attack that was a very 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:06.240 close call that actually killed a journalist standing where I 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:10.760 had been standing. And we were covering refugees fleeing this area, 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.680 something that I covered a million times now, and all 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:17.040 the locals were warning us to leave, and we went 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:21.800 to leave, and literally an incoming round came in and 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.680 landed so close to our car that our entire car 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.360 flew forward. And as we evacuated, we went to this 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.680 school like a few kilometers down the road, and a 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.000 taxi pulled up and said, is there a journalist here? 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:37.480 And everyone was regathering and the taxi driver said, I 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:40.120 have the body of a journalist in my trunk. Can 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:43.920 someone help me identify him? And I just I remember 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.880 looking at him, and I ran behind the school and 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:51.120 just started sobbing and thinking, I don't want to do 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.720 this for a living. I don't think I can stay here. 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.920 But there was no way out because Saddam was still 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.760 in power. We couldn't go south, Iran wouldn't let us 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:02.800 back in, and I basically had to learn how to 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.440 deal with my fear and how to cover war in 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:09.520 northern Iraq. So before the kidnapping in Iraq, there were 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:11.840 like these gradual close calls. 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:14.200 Maybe that's almost a sliding doors moment, that one, because 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:16.480 had there been a way out, I probably would have 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:18.360 and you might not have gone back to that kind 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:21.360 of zone again. But then you were there in Iraq again, 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:26.800 and you were out one day with other journalists, and 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:29.760 that was when you got held up at a checkpoint. 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:30.560 Yeah Fallujah. 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.360 Yeah. So I had basically spent all of two thousand 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:35.120 and three and the beginning of two thousand and four 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.960 in Iraq. I was working with a colleague for the 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.160 New York Times, and we heard there was a helicopter down, 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:44.280 a marine helicopter down. So we went. The only road 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:47.959 open was a smuggler's route, and as we were nearing 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:52.240 the outskirts of Fallujah, we turned a corner and literally 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:56.439 the entire road was full of insurgents with kafias their faces, wrapped, 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.280 rockets on their backs, coloss and a coughs. They started 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.920 shooting in the air, where it was terrifying. They pulled 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:05.160 all the men out of the car. I was dressed 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:09.200 in full hit jobs so by a headscarf, everything, and 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:11.960 they left me sitting in the car and I was 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:14.840 looking out the window watching my colleague get led away. 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.560 And this is where you did something really interesting. You 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:20.680 said that colleague was your husband. 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:24.400 Yeah. I thought if I did that, they would take 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.240 us as a couple and it'd be more complicated for 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:29.720 them to kill us or to figure out what to do. 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:32.520 When you insert a woman into that situation, it's a 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:32.920 hell of. 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:35.440 A thing to do, Lindsey, I'm trying to imagine being 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.760 in the same position, and you're in not safety, but 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:41.800 you're in a more protected position in this car, and 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:47.360 you're connecting yourself to someone who's being led away. 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:50.280 I guess, but you would probably do the same thing. 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.240 I mean, you work in teams in these places, and 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.600 when you work in war zones, there is a solidarity, 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.400 and so I didn't think about it in terms of 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.360 my own safety. I thought about it in terms of 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:04.800 how can I help this situation? And I think it 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.160 did help diffuse it didn't it? I think it did 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.319 in the end. I think it did. They held us 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.360 for a day. It was terrifying. Of course, we had 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.600 guns to our heads. They questioned us repeatedly, and in 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:18.240 the end they ended up letting us go. 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:23.800 You've also been on embeds with the US in Afghanistan, 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:28.080 and when you've written about it in your book, I 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:30.240 think one gets a sense of the humanity of the 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:33.240 soldiers as well as the civilians. You were embedded, I 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.080 think with one group for two months, and at the 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:37.280 end of that some of those you'd been with were killed. 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:40.080 Correct. I was embedded with the one hundred and seventy third 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.800 Airborn in the Corngall Valley, and that was in two 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.400 thousand and seven, at the time, arguably the most dangerous 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:50.720 place in Afghanistan, and we intentionally asked to embed there 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:53.640 because we wanted to understand why there were so many 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:58.200 civilian casualties in Afghanistan given the incredible technology that the 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:02.120 US military had, and so we were very lucky because 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.400 we were allowed as women to go to sort of 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.320 the heart of the war and we spent two months 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.360 with them and witnessed, you know, went on daily patrols 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:14.680 six seven hours a day, we were shot at, ambushed, 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.319 and then at the end we went on Operation Rock Avalanche, 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.880 which was a battalion wide operation. We had to jump 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:23.440 out of black Hawks in the middle of the night 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.840 into the heart of Tulliban territory. And it was really 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:31.440 on these missions that you learn what wars about. It 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.360 was one of the few times, ironically, in twenty five 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.840 years of covering conflict that I really felt like I 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:41.320 was at the heart of war because you're on the 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:44.440 side of the mountain with a group of young American 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:49.559 men who are told they're fighting for democracy, and you 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.960 just sort of see the cost. You really understand the 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:57.079 complete disconnect between the Afghans who didn't want the Americans 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.520 there and the Americans who thought they were helping the 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:04.800 Afghan and young American soldiers dying and Afghanist dying. So 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:08.640 what was it for? And you don't see those scenes 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:10.760 unless you really invest the time. 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.320 Did you have those conversations? I'm wondering what the dynamic 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.520 is like on an embed when you can clearly see this, 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.359 because you know Afghanistan and you know how the civilians 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:23.480 feel about the presence, and it's evident in the fact 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.360 that the attacks are taking place. But do you have 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:29.600 those conversations with the soldiers? Not really. 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.120 I mean I think for them at that time, they 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.000 were sort of despondent because they had been there so long. 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.920 It was so incredibly dangerous. I mean, we were shot 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.600 at almost every day on every patrol. They were living 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.160 in bunkers on the side of a mountain, and everyone 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:49.280 was really lonely. Their personal lives were falling apart, and 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.080 so they would talk about what are we doing here? 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.560 But I think in terms of the greater political context, 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.560 we never went there. It was very much about just 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.480 kind of being there, having the trust of the soldiers, 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:05.040 being able to access these embeds in these scenes. 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:07.720 Do you think your presence represents something to them, some 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:09.760 kind of assemblance for world outside. 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.200 Yeah. They kept asking us, like, you're really here because 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.120 you want to be regular. They could not believe it, 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.920 and so I think they were very grateful that we 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.240 were there, that the American public can see their service, 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:26.560 could see what they were going through. I think that 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.640 for them it's like a validation of what they're doing. 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.560 One of the people who was later killed in action, 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:35.880 you knew that he was planning to go home and 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.720 propose to his girlfriend, and you end up photographing Rugel 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:40.520 his body bag. Yeah. 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.760 We were ambushed in Operation Rock Avalanche, and it was 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.160 so chaotic and that we heard that there was man 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:50.920 down and I'm photographing, and I realized I had photographed 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:54.160 two of the three wounded. And then as I was 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:56.480 making my way to the landing zone where the METAVAC 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.280 was coming in to take out the wounded, I thought, 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:02.960 where's because I knew his call sign and he hadn't 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:06.360 come out. And then I saw the scout team sort 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:10.080 of emerging from the dust carrying a body bag. And 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.920 it was in that moment that I thought, I can't 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.920 believe he's dead. You know, this young man who was 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.040 so alive and talking about his future and then seeing 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:22.920 him be carried in a body bag was really devastating. 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.000 And the other soldiers are crying, and then I. 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:27.680 Was crying, of course, because you make that connection, and 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.160 then you think of his parents, you think of his 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.880 loved ones, and you think they don't even know yet 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:34.480 that they've lost their loved one. 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.120 Do you have a struggle with leaving any of that 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.320 behind at the end of the day because you also 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.960 need to you must need to compartmentalize, or do you 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:45.400 not think of it that way? Is the emotion part 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:47.760 of what makes you a great photographer? 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:51.280 I think a combination. I mean, I definitely allow myself 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:55.120 to feel, and I have, I think, an extraordinary amount 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:57.520 of empathy, and that I wish I wasn't so emotional, 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.800 but I think that it's important, and I think that 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.240 when I stop feeling, I really need to be worried. 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.720 But I also compartmentalize when I go home, because I 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.680 have to be present for my personal life and I 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:12.520 owe it to now my children and my husband to 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.720 not live in this very dark place of sadness and 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.360 war all the time. I carry it with me. I 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:21.320 make it a point to not just forget about things, 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.640 but I definitely have to compartmentalize so that I can 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:25.200 be present. 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.840 So we go back in time then to your birth family, 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:31.440 your parents, and your sisters when you were growing up. 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:33.640 I think, because you're the youngest of fool, your older 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.200 sisters have said that they deserve some credit for what 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:37.600 you are because they toughened you up. 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.360 Yeah, they were really tough on me. I mean, anyone 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:44.800 who has older sisters knows it's generally not an easy path. 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.320 We grew up in Connecticut and a very sort of open, 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:52.800 eccentric household. My parents are hairdressers, and we had very 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:55.280 few rules at our house growing up. But my three 0:16:55.320 --> 0:17:00.000 older sisters, who I'm now very close to, were really tough. 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:02.920 I mean they'd sort of they'd picked me up. They 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:05.640 picked up me, they'd call me names that were constantly 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:07.720 slamming the door in my face and telling me I 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.800 couldn't join in. And I guess yeah, in a sense, 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:11.639 they did. Dof for me. 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:13.720 You had to go really far from home to carve 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.720 out your own path. I feel, yes I did. But 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.720 your parents being hairdresses, I mean, I'm thinking headdresses have 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:22.760 to be good with people, they have to be able 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:25.320 to talk to anyone, And perhaps that is a thread 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:27.280 that you've brought into your professional exactly. 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.840 It was really a household where we sort of opened 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:34.040 our doors to anyone and everyone. And I think that 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:36.760 that made me who I am in terms of being 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:41.520 able to walk into any situation not be judgmental, really 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:43.639 be able to accept people for who they are and 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:44.400 where they're at. 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.400 What was the first time you picked up a camera? 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:48.359 How did that happen? 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.160 My father gave me a camera when I was about 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:54.919 twelve years old. A client of his gave him a camera, 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:59.320 and I remember I had no idea how to use it. 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.040 So I started reading all these manuals of like how 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:07.199 to photograph and and so I started taking pictures of 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.240 inanimate objects because I was too shy to approach people. 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.040 And then I would sit on the roof and try 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:14.919 and photograph the moon. And it was an awakening for 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.040 me of sort of a different way of expressing. But 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:21.439 it really wasn't until I graduated and then I started 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:26.280 photographing people and really started becoming aware of photojournalism as 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:27.560 a way to tell stories. 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:30.440 But you hadn't grown up with photojournalism. Is that right now? 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.600 I think it wasn't a house which had newspapers coming in. 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:37.000 You're not looking at images of like conflicts around the world. 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.679 Really, it was not an intellectual family. We had no 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:43.119 books in the house except for the encyclopedias, and so 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.320 it wasn't until really I went to university and I 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:50.440 was determined to do something that was more intellectual, obviously 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.400 because I grew up in such a creative family, and 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.639 I studied international relations and I did not want to 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.840 be a photographer at all. And then I graduated and 0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:02.040 the only thing I wanted to do was photograph. And 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:05.280 it wasn't until I realized that you can photojournalism with 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.600 sort of this great marriage between that it existed and yeah, 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.760 that it existed, which sounds ridiculous, But if you don't 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.880 grow up in a family with newspapers and where you're 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:17.600 constantly sort of privy to what's happening in the world, 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:21.280 why would I have known about photojournalism. 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:24.000 Your craft today? When you go out on assignment, and 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:27.760 you've been on many tough assignments, including Ukraine and recently 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:32.240 Sudan and Gaza and other places. But when you're going 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.480 out and you presume you want to come back that 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:38.080 day with something hug of course, what do you set 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:40.120 out Do you set out to think today, I really 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:44.520 want to capture a particular kind of scene. Yeah, are 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:46.080 you going with the flow. No. 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:50.480 I guess what people don't understand it is that photojournalism 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:53.560 and being a photographer is not just about taking photos. 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.400 There is so much that goes into it. So as 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.040 I'm gearing up for a trip, I spend an extraordinary 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:02.840 amount of time doing research, updating myself on what's happening 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:03.400 right now. 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:07.400 Are you looking for locations or thinking everything? That hospital 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:09.439 is somewhere I'd like to go to. That kind of 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:10.840 person is someone I want to find. 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:14.320 I'm looking for themes. I'm looking for contacts. I'm looking 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:17.960 for hospitals. I'm looking for schools. I'm looking for what 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:21.560 is the story of the moment, what is important? And 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:24.720 how can I advance the story? What's not being told, 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:27.479 what's happening to women that is rape being used as 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.280 a weapon of war. I'm looking for sort of everything. 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.240 So when I finally get on the ground in a country, 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.440 every day I have a list of things in my head. 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:40.080 I'm making notes, I'm doing reporting on the ground. I'm 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:44.960 constantly updating my shoot list. And sometimes things are serendipitous. 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.639 Sometimes I'll be driving and I'll see this extraordinary scene 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:50.840 and I'll stop the car and that might be the 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:53.840 photo for the day, But I always have an agenda somewhere. 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:56.040 But that shoot list, when you're thinking about it in 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:58.439 advance and making that list, is it visual that you 0:20:58.520 --> 0:20:59.600 actually have. 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:01.920 Do you think in that way? Yeah, well I think 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:04.840 in words. Do you think in images? I think in images. 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:08.560 In Sudan, for example, I knew that food is an 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:12.200 issue and there is malnutrition, and so when I'm going in, 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:14.639