1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. A note before we 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: start that this conversation includes an account of abduction, violence, 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: and sexual assault that some listeners may find distressing. 4 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 2: We went on daily patrols six seven hours a day. 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 2: We were shot at, ambushed, and then we had to 6 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 2: jump out of black hawks in the middle of the 7 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 2: night into the heart of Tulliban Territory. 8 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: Lindsay Adario Pulitzerprise winning photographer and chronicler of the extreme 9 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: and the every day. 10 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 2: My job is to bear witness to everything that happens 11 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 2: in conflict zones. Women continue to deliver babies, I see marriages, divorce, 12 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 2: I see death and life. 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: Do you love the job? 14 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: It's something that I do from my heart and my soul. 15 00:00:55,680 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: From Bloomberg Weekend. This is the Michelle Hussein Show. I'm 16 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: Michelle Hussein. There have been times in my professional life 17 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: when I've had to take a flat jacket and body 18 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: armor with me on assignment. Not that I've ever been 19 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: a war reporter, but there are places I've needed to 20 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: go to which carried risk and you always need to 21 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: be prepared. Whenever I saw that kit in the hallway 22 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: before a trip, I always felt a moment of gratitude 23 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: that this wasn't part of my everyday work. For Lindsaya Dario, 24 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,839 Speaker 1: though it is. She's an award winning photographer who's worked 25 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: in war zones from Afghanistan and Ukraine to Sudan. Sometimes 26 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: it's the writer the correspondent traveling with her who ends 27 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: up getting more of the attention from an assignment, but 28 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: it's Lindsay's pictures which bring their words to life. Some 29 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: years ago, she wrote her own book about the places 30 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: she's been, the extreme situations she's experienced, including being kidnapped twice, 31 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: once in Iraq and once in Libya. If you're thinking 32 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: there aren't many women in this field, you'd be right, 33 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: and that's part of why there's a new documentary about 34 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: her on Disney Plus. Intriguingly, it's called Love and War, 35 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: which is why when we spoke, I asked her, how 36 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: does love come into it? 37 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 2: Love comes into it in the balance of my family. 38 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 2: You have war, and then you come home to this 39 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: sort of nest of love with my children and my husband, 40 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: also my sisters and my parents. But I think also 41 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: the thing about war is that you see these incredible 42 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 2: scenes of love and generosity and kindness and selflessness alongside brutality. 43 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 2: Of course, you get a sense of love that actually 44 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 2: sort of binds people in these horrific moments. 45 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: You've witnessed birth, You've certainly witnessed death, You've witnessed grief. 46 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: All of this is part of what you do. 47 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, my job is to bear witness to 48 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 2: everything that happens in conflict zones and also outside of 49 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: conflict zones. And so I'm seeing daily life continue under 50 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 2: these very difficult circumstances. So that means, yes, women continue 51 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 2: to deliver babies. You know, I see marriages, I see divorce, 52 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 2: I see everything. I see death and life. 53 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: Do you love the job? Is that also part of 54 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: the love that's in this? 55 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think anyone could cover war without 56 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: loving the job. It's something that I do from my 57 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 2: heart and my soul. It's something that I do because 58 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 2: I believe in it. 59 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: Going back in time, I wondered if we could talk 60 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: about two turning points. I think they're turning points, the 61 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: first of which is nine to eleven, and you're already 62 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: working as a photographer. But is that the moment where 63 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: you become a war photographer? 64 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? So I was photographing for many years, and then 65 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: I moved to India in two thousand and in India, 66 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: I started becoming aware of women's issues in Afghanistan. 67 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: It's not about how to come to power exactly, as 68 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: of being restricted exactly, and. 69 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 2: So I was reading about that, and I was reading 70 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 2: a lot about women's issues in Afghanistan, and as a 71 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: young woman, I was curious, you know, what to Afghan 72 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: women think? Not necessarily what does the West think of 73 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: what Afghan women must feel, but what do they actually think? 74 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 2: And so I went to Afghanistan as I was twenty 75 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: six years old, and I borrowed money from my sister 76 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 2: and I started doing a lot of reporting and photographing 77 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 2: what I could of women living under the Taliban and 78 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 2: I ended up making three trips to Afghanistan before September eleventh. 79 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: So when September eleventh happened and the US was gearing 80 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: up for war in Afghanistan, it felt very natural for 81 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: me to go there because I was already quite familiar 82 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: with it and so had. 83 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: A hot time. Hadn't you se selling those pictures? 84 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 3: Yeah? 85 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: I couldn't give. 86 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: Them away, I mean is interesting. 87 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 2: No one was interested because it was before September eleventh, 88 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 2: and very few journalists were actually working in Afghanistan at 89 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 2: the time. Photography was illegal under the Taliban, So the 90 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 2: La Times published some pictures, but really it was difficult 91 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 2: to get them published. 92 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: And that all changed suddenly with international interest in the 93 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: country absolutely nine to eleven. And was there a sense 94 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: of excitemental thrill then for you that new opportunities are dawning. 95 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 2: Well, I think after September eleventh what became exciting for 96 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 2: me is that I had this knowledge that I had 97 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 2: procured on my own, and then suddenly it was relevant 98 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: on a world stage. And so the New York Times 99 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: sent me on my first big assignment for them, which 100 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 2: was covering Pakistan leading up to the fall of the Taliban, 101 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 2: and then the New York Times magazine put me on 102 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: assignment to do the Women of Jihad, and so I 103 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: started working pretty consistently for the New York Times then. 104 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: But that's when you guess you have to learn that 105 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: there are risks involved in your work, right, You start 106 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: to have to evaluate that, like covering a war is 107 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: something completely different to you at that stage. 108 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 2: Absolutely, at that time, there were suicide bombers, there were 109 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: smaller scale attacks. The US started bombing Afghanistan, and then 110 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 2: we had to navigate how to go in. There was 111 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 2: a whole you know, when do you go into a 112 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 2: country when the government or the taller bomb was falling. 113 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: You know, when is it safe to actually move into 114 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 2: a place that's very hostile? And so it's always a 115 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: learning curve. You know. Now with Ukraine it's drones, and 116 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 2: so I think it's ever evolving. 117 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: The other turning point I wondered about in your career 118 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: was Iraq in two thousand and four, because you had 119 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: the first of your abduction kidnap experiences. Then take me 120 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: back to that time and that place, the really chaotic 121 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,799 Speaker 1: period after the US invasion, the year afterwards, I mean even. 122 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: Leading up to the US invasion, when I was offered 123 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 2: to go into Iraq, I didn't think. I really wasn't 124 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 2: sure I could handle a military mbed. At that point, 125 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 2: I had never been in combat. I was offered a 126 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 2: position with one hundred and first Airborne. I did not 127 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 2: take it. 128 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: So why did you think you couldn't handle it? 129 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 2: Because I was a woman. I didn't know if I'd 130 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 2: be physically fit enough, if i'd be as strong as 131 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: the man I was going in with. I didn't know 132 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 2: what it would feel like to be under fire, because 133 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: even though I covered the fall of the Taliban, it 134 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: was not combat. This is going to be frontline, yeah, 135 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 2: And I really didn't want to be responsible for holding 136 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 2: anyone up or being scared or I just wasn't sure 137 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: how I would respond. And so I ended up going 138 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: into northern Iraq from Iran, and many journalists did, and 139 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: we were sort of covering the Kurdish territory and there 140 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: was a proxy war. It was Lansar fighting US forces 141 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 2: backed by Kurdish special forces, and it was there that 142 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 2: I was in my first attack that was a very 143 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: close call that actually killed a journalist standing where I 144 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 2: had been standing. And we were covering refugees fleeing this area, 145 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: something that I covered a million times now, and all 146 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 2: the locals were warning us to leave, and we went 147 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 2: to leave, and literally an incoming round came in and 148 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 2: landed so close to our car that our entire car 149 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: flew forward. And as we evacuated, we went to this 150 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 2: school like a few kilometers down the road, and a 151 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 2: taxi pulled up and said, is there a journalist here? 152 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: And everyone was regathering and the taxi driver said, I 153 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 2: have the body of a journalist in my trunk. Can 154 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: someone help me identify him? And I just I remember 155 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: looking at him, and I ran behind the school and 156 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: just started sobbing and thinking, I don't want to do 157 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 2: this for a living. I don't think I can stay here. 158 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 2: But there was no way out because Saddam was still 159 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: in power. We couldn't go south, Iran wouldn't let us 160 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: back in, and I basically had to learn how to 161 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 2: deal with my fear and how to cover war in 162 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: northern Iraq. So before the kidnapping in Iraq, there were 163 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: like these gradual close calls. 164 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: Maybe that's almost a sliding doors moment, that one, because 165 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: had there been a way out, I probably would have 166 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: and you might not have gone back to that kind 167 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: of zone again. But then you were there in Iraq again, 168 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: and you were out one day with other journalists, and 169 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: that was when you got held up at a checkpoint. 170 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: Yeah Fallujah. 171 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I had basically spent all of two thousand 172 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 2: and three and the beginning of two thousand and four 173 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 2: in Iraq. I was working with a colleague for the 174 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: New York Times, and we heard there was a helicopter down, 175 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 2: a marine helicopter down. So we went. The only road 176 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 2: open was a smuggler's route, and as we were nearing 177 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 2: the outskirts of Fallujah, we turned a corner and literally 178 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 2: the entire road was full of insurgents with kafias their faces, wrapped, 179 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 2: rockets on their backs, coloss and a coughs. They started 180 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 2: shooting in the air, where it was terrifying. They pulled 181 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 2: all the men out of the car. I was dressed 182 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 2: in full hit jobs so by a headscarf, everything, and 183 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 2: they left me sitting in the car and I was 184 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 2: looking out the window watching my colleague get led away. 185 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: And this is where you did something really interesting. You 186 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: said that colleague was your husband. 187 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. I thought if I did that, they would take 188 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 2: us as a couple and it'd be more complicated for 189 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 2: them to kill us or to figure out what to do. 190 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 2: When you insert a woman into that situation, it's a 191 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 2: hell of. 192 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: A thing to do, Lindsey, I'm trying to imagine being 193 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: in the same position, and you're in not safety, but 194 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: you're in a more protected position in this car, and 195 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: you're connecting yourself to someone who's being led away. 196 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 2: I guess, but you would probably do the same thing. 197 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 2: I mean, you work in teams in these places, and 198 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 2: when you work in war zones, there is a solidarity, 199 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 2: and so I didn't think about it in terms of 200 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 2: my own safety. I thought about it in terms of 201 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: how can I help this situation? And I think it 202 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 2: did help diffuse it didn't it? I think it did 203 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 2: in the end. I think it did. They held us 204 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 2: for a day. It was terrifying. Of course, we had 205 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 2: guns to our heads. They questioned us repeatedly, and in 206 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 2: the end they ended up letting us go. 207 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: You've also been on embeds with the US in Afghanistan, 208 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: and when you've written about it in your book, I 209 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: think one gets a sense of the humanity of the 210 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: soldiers as well as the civilians. You were embedded, I 211 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: think with one group for two months, and at the 212 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: end of that some of those you'd been with were killed. 213 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 2: Correct. I was embedded with the one hundred and seventy third 214 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 2: Airborn in the Corngall Valley, and that was in two 215 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 2: thousand and seven, at the time, arguably the most dangerous 216 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 2: place in Afghanistan, and we intentionally asked to embed there 217 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 2: because we wanted to understand why there were so many 218 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 2: civilian casualties in Afghanistan given the incredible technology that the 219 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 2: US military had, and so we were very lucky because 220 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: we were allowed as women to go to sort of 221 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 2: the heart of the war and we spent two months 222 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 2: with them and witnessed, you know, went on daily patrols 223 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 2: six seven hours a day, we were shot at, ambushed, 224 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 2: and then at the end we went on Operation Rock Avalanche, 225 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: which was a battalion wide operation. We had to jump 226 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 2: out of black Hawks in the middle of the night 227 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 2: into the heart of Tulliban territory. And it was really 228 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 2: on these missions that you learn what wars about. It 229 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 2: was one of the few times, ironically, in twenty five 230 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 2: years of covering conflict that I really felt like I 231 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 2: was at the heart of war because you're on the 232 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 2: side of the mountain with a group of young American 233 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 2: men who are told they're fighting for democracy, and you 234 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 2: just sort of see the cost. You really understand the 235 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 2: complete disconnect between the Afghans who didn't want the Americans 236 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: there and the Americans who thought they were helping the 237 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 2: Afghan and young American soldiers dying and Afghanist dying. So 238 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: what was it for? And you don't see those scenes 239 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 2: unless you really invest the time. 240 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: Did you have those conversations? I'm wondering what the dynamic 241 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: is like on an embed when you can clearly see this, 242 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,359 Speaker 1: because you know Afghanistan and you know how the civilians 243 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: feel about the presence, and it's evident in the fact 244 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: that the attacks are taking place. But do you have 245 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: those conversations with the soldiers? Not really. 246 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 2: I mean I think for them at that time, they 247 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: were sort of despondent because they had been there so long. 248 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 2: It was so incredibly dangerous. I mean, we were shot 249 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 2: at almost every day on every patrol. They were living 250 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 2: in bunkers on the side of a mountain, and everyone 251 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: was really lonely. Their personal lives were falling apart, and 252 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: so they would talk about what are we doing here? 253 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 2: But I think in terms of the greater political context, 254 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 2: we never went there. It was very much about just 255 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 2: kind of being there, having the trust of the soldiers, 256 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 2: being able to access these embeds in these scenes. 257 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: Do you think your presence represents something to them, some 258 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: kind of assemblance for world outside. 259 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. They kept asking us, like, you're really here because 260 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: you want to be regular. They could not believe it, 261 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 2: and so I think they were very grateful that we 262 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 2: were there, that the American public can see their service, 263 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: could see what they were going through. I think that 264 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 2: for them it's like a validation of what they're doing. 265 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: One of the people who was later killed in action, 266 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: you knew that he was planning to go home and 267 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: propose to his girlfriend, and you end up photographing Rugel 268 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: his body bag. Yeah. 269 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 2: We were ambushed in Operation Rock Avalanche, and it was 270 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 2: so chaotic and that we heard that there was man 271 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: down and I'm photographing, and I realized I had photographed 272 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: two of the three wounded. And then as I was 273 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 2: making my way to the landing zone where the METAVAC 274 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 2: was coming in to take out the wounded, I thought, 275 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: where's because I knew his call sign and he hadn't 276 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: come out. And then I saw the scout team sort 277 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: of emerging from the dust carrying a body bag. And 278 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 2: it was in that moment that I thought, I can't 279 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 2: believe he's dead. You know, this young man who was 280 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: so alive and talking about his future and then seeing 281 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 2: him be carried in a body bag was really devastating. 282 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: And the other soldiers are crying, and then I. 283 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: Was crying, of course, because you make that connection, and 284 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 2: then you think of his parents, you think of his 285 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 2: loved ones, and you think they don't even know yet 286 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 2: that they've lost their loved one. 287 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: Do you have a struggle with leaving any of that 288 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: behind at the end of the day because you also 289 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: need to you must need to compartmentalize, or do you 290 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: not think of it that way? Is the emotion part 291 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: of what makes you a great photographer? 292 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 2: I think a combination. I mean, I definitely allow myself 293 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 2: to feel, and I have, I think, an extraordinary amount 294 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 2: of empathy, and that I wish I wasn't so emotional, 295 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 2: but I think that it's important, and I think that 296 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 2: when I stop feeling, I really need to be worried. 297 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 2: But I also compartmentalize when I go home, because I 298 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 2: have to be present for my personal life and I 299 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 2: owe it to now my children and my husband to 300 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 2: not live in this very dark place of sadness and 301 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 2: war all the time. I carry it with me. I 302 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: make it a point to not just forget about things, 303 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 2: but I definitely have to compartmentalize so that I can 304 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 2: be present. 305 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: So we go back in time then to your birth family, 306 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: your parents, and your sisters when you were growing up. 307 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: I think, because you're the youngest of fool, your older 308 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: sisters have said that they deserve some credit for what 309 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: you are because they toughened you up. 310 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were really tough on me. I mean, anyone 311 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 2: who has older sisters knows it's generally not an easy path. 312 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: We grew up in Connecticut and a very sort of open, 313 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 2: eccentric household. My parents are hairdressers, and we had very 314 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 2: few rules at our house growing up. But my three 315 00:16:55,320 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: older sisters, who I'm now very close to, were really tough. 316 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 2: I mean they'd sort of they'd picked me up. They 317 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 2: picked up me, they'd call me names that were constantly 318 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 2: slamming the door in my face and telling me I 319 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 2: couldn't join in. And I guess yeah, in a sense, 320 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 2: they did. Dof for me. 321 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: You had to go really far from home to carve 322 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: out your own path. I feel, yes I did. But 323 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: your parents being hairdresses, I mean, I'm thinking headdresses have 324 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: to be good with people, they have to be able 325 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: to talk to anyone, And perhaps that is a thread 326 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: that you've brought into your professional exactly. 327 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 2: It was really a household where we sort of opened 328 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 2: our doors to anyone and everyone. And I think that 329 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 2: that made me who I am in terms of being 330 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: able to walk into any situation not be judgmental, really 331 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 2: be able to accept people for who they are and 332 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 2: where they're at. 333 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 1: What was the first time you picked up a camera? 334 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: How did that happen? 335 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 2: My father gave me a camera when I was about 336 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 2: twelve years old. A client of his gave him a camera, 337 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 2: and I remember I had no idea how to use it. 338 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 2: So I started reading all these manuals of like how 339 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 2: to photograph and and so I started taking pictures of 340 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 2: inanimate objects because I was too shy to approach people. 341 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 2: And then I would sit on the roof and try 342 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 2: and photograph the moon. And it was an awakening for 343 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 2: me of sort of a different way of expressing. But 344 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 2: it really wasn't until I graduated and then I started 345 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: photographing people and really started becoming aware of photojournalism as 346 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 2: a way to tell stories. 347 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: But you hadn't grown up with photojournalism. Is that right now? 348 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: I think it wasn't a house which had newspapers coming in. 349 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: You're not looking at images of like conflicts around the world. 350 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 2: Really, it was not an intellectual family. We had no 351 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 2: books in the house except for the encyclopedias, and so 352 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 2: it wasn't until really I went to university and I 353 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 2: was determined to do something that was more intellectual, obviously 354 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 2: because I grew up in such a creative family, and 355 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 2: I studied international relations and I did not want to 356 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 2: be a photographer at all. And then I graduated and 357 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 2: the only thing I wanted to do was photograph. And 358 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 2: it wasn't until I realized that you can photojournalism with 359 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 2: sort of this great marriage between that it existed and yeah, 360 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: that it existed, which sounds ridiculous, But if you don't 361 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 2: grow up in a family with newspapers and where you're 362 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: constantly sort of privy to what's happening in the world, 363 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: why would I have known about photojournalism. 364 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: Your craft today? When you go out on assignment, and 365 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: you've been on many tough assignments, including Ukraine and recently 366 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: Sudan and Gaza and other places. But when you're going 367 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: out and you presume you want to come back that 368 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: day with something hug of course, what do you set 369 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: out Do you set out to think today, I really 370 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: want to capture a particular kind of scene. Yeah, are 371 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: you going with the flow. No. 372 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 2: I guess what people don't understand it is that photojournalism 373 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: and being a photographer is not just about taking photos. 374 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 2: There is so much that goes into it. So as 375 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: I'm gearing up for a trip, I spend an extraordinary 376 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: amount of time doing research, updating myself on what's happening 377 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 2: right now. 378 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 1: Are you looking for locations or thinking everything? That hospital 379 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: is somewhere I'd like to go to. That kind of 380 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: person is someone I want to find. 381 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 2: I'm looking for themes. I'm looking for contacts. I'm looking 382 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 2: for hospitals. I'm looking for schools. I'm looking for what 383 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: is the story of the moment, what is important? And 384 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 2: how can I advance the story? What's not being told, 385 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,479 Speaker 2: what's happening to women that is rape being used as 386 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 2: a weapon of war. I'm looking for sort of everything. 387 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 2: So when I finally get on the ground in a country, 388 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 2: every day I have a list of things in my head. 389 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 2: I'm making notes, I'm doing reporting on the ground. I'm 390 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 2: constantly updating my shoot list. And sometimes things are serendipitous. 391 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 2: Sometimes I'll be driving and I'll see this extraordinary scene 392 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: and I'll stop the car and that might be the 393 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 2: photo for the day, But I always have an agenda somewhere. 394 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: But that shoot list, when you're thinking about it in 395 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 1: advance and making that list, is it visual that you 396 00:20:58,520 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: actually have. 397 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 2: Do you think in that way? Yeah, well I think 398 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 2: in words. Do you think in images? I think in images. 399 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 2: In Sudan, for example, I knew that food is an 400 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 2: issue and there is malnutrition, and so when I'm going in, 401 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 2: I know I have to look for a communal kitchen, 402 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 2: one of the emergency response rooms, food distribution. You know, 403 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 2: is there some place that I can show that people 404 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 2: are starving. I'm making a list because there are things 405 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: I've read about. There are things that I know help 406 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 2: comprehensively tell a story, and so it's not just about 407 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 2: showing up somewhere and looking for pretty pictures. 408 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: There was a day early in the war in Ukraine 409 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: in February twenty twenty two when you were out and 410 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: you ended up seeing Themoth immediate Aftomoth actually being almost 411 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: in the middle of a Russian struggle. I was evacuated. 412 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: Civilians tell me about that day because it led to 413 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: a famous image that you've taken. But I want to 414 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: know the before sure, and the often so it. 415 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 2: Was actually March sixth, twenty twenty two, and at that 416 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 2: point the situation in Butucha and Airpine was a bit 417 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 2: of a mystery. Everyone knew the Russians were there. They 418 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 2: had sort of encircled the area. A lot of civilians 419 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 2: started fleeing to Kiev across the broken Earpen bridge. The 420 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 2: bridge had been broken intentionally by the Ukrainian forces to 421 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 2: stop the Russian advance, and so I had seen these 422 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 2: photographs of hundreds of Ukrainian civilians leaving Bucha and Eirpeine 423 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 2: across the bridge the day before, and I didn't know 424 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 2: about it, and I was really upset with myself because 425 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 2: it was a really important moment in the conflict, and 426 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,719 Speaker 2: so I made a plan to go the following morning, 427 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 2: and it felt incredibly tense, and I had been worn 428 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,719 Speaker 2: that there was shelling on the other side of the bridge, 429 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 2: and so we took cover behind this wall near the bridge, 430 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 2: and we were photographing civilians leaving, and it was a 431 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 2: known civilian evacuation route. So when the first mortar round 432 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 2: came in, I thought, well, the Russians know this is 433 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 2: all civilians, so they won't kill them. Because of course, 434 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 2: putin had said repeatedly, we are not targeting civilians, and 435 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 2: so my security advisor said, would you like to leave? 436 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 2: And I said, no, no, no, they're not going to 437 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 2: target this. This is all women and children and elderly. 438 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 2: And so I was shooting and then another round came 439 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 2: in a bit closer, and so we dove for cover 440 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 2: behind the cement wall, and almost immediately a third round 441 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 2: came in and landed with like twenty meters between me 442 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 2: and the family, and I saw the flash of the round. 443 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 2: The mortar round hit the pavement and it was a 444 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 2: ball of flames, and dove behind this wall and when 445 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 2: I popped up, I thought that it was a soldier 446 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: that had been knocked down, because they were calling for 447 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 2: a medic. And as I approached, I realized that there 448 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 2: were children. I mean, I first noticed these moon boots 449 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 2: and I thought, I can't believe there was a family. 450 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: And I'm scanning the scene and I'm shooting, and there's 451 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 2: still rounds coming in, so I know I have to 452 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 2: work quickly. Of course, my instinct is to leave, but 453 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 2: I don't want to leave because I've just witnessed what 454 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 2: I thought was a war crime, and so I'm shooting, 455 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 2: and then I work my way around the scene and 456 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 2: I see the faces, and I'm thinking to myself, the 457 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 2: New York Times will never publish civilians who have been killed. 458 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 2: But I have to document this just for the sake 459 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 2: of documentation, and I'm trying to do it in a 460 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 2: respectful way, in a way that's dignified. Of course, I 461 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 2: don't know if the family is dead or alive. And 462 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 2: then we have to run away because there rounds still 463 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 2: coming in. And when I get back to the car, 464 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 2: I called my editor and I said, I've just waitness this, 465 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 2: and I'll send you photographs if they're in focus. Of course, 466 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 2: I had no idea if I'd even properly made pictures, 467 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 2: because I was still in shock. And the New York 468 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 2: Times did make a decision to run the photos on 469 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: the front page on the house floor they were used. 470 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 2: They went sort of viral, just to prove that civilians 471 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 2: were being targeted. 472 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: Why was that so exceptional to publish those pictures, because 473 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: these are culpses. These are faces of corpses that are 474 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: visible the picture. 475 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 2: In my many years of covering war, it is always 476 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 2: a huge debate whether to publish the dead, especially when 477 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 2: their faces are identifiable. In this case, I tried to 478 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,239 Speaker 2: shoot in a way where their faces were not, but 479 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 2: it wasn't very graphic. It looked as if everyone was 480 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 2: sleeping they had been knocked over by the sheer impact 481 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 2: of the blast, that we had only been spared because 482 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 2: actually the blast went in their direction and not our direction. 483 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: You said you were shocked, but we also angry. 484 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,439 Speaker 2: Oh, I mean I was angry. I was upset. In 485 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 2: the documentary, you can hear me cursing because I didn't 486 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: even realize that Andre, my colleague, had been shooting the 487 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 2: whole time. And so I somehow convinced myself from the 488 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: time we got into the car to back to the hotel, 489 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 2: that actually it wasn't really a close call, that we 490 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 2: were fine. We were quite a distance. And when I 491 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 2: got back to the hotel, Clarissa Ward, who's the CNN correspondent, 492 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 2: messaged me and said, are you okay? And I said, yeah, 493 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 2: I'm fine. She said I saw the attack. I said, 494 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 2: how did you see the attack? And she said Andre 495 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 2: posted it on Facebook. And my heart sort of sank 496 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 2: because then I realized my family will have seen it, 497 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 2: perhaps my children will have seen it, and I realized 498 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 2: it actually was as close as I thought it was. 499 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: In a situation like that, if you'll editor whoever you're 500 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: trying to sell the pictures to says, actually, we're not 501 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 1: going to use that for whatever reason, maybe even sometimes 502 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: because it's not interesting enough in the brutal realities of 503 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: the way New covered. What does that do to you? 504 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, on these assignments, I can't do anything, really, 505 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 2: I mean ethically, I have to just say okay. In 506 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 2: this case, I was terrified they would say that. And 507 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 2: because I had survived the attack and I knew that 508 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 2: it was intentional targeting, I really went to bat because 509 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 2: this was a situation where I actually witnessed bracketing of 510 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 2: mortar rounds onto a civilian evacuation route, and so for 511 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 2: me it was very important to publish these pictures. 512 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 1: I want to ask you to put on your headphones 513 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: and listen to something that you said a few years 514 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: before that, And it was when you had been in 515 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: Libya in twenty eleven and you had been held hostage 516 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:50,719 Speaker 1: by Gadaffi's troops in really difficult circumstances, and after you 517 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: had come out of that, you went on CNN and 518 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: you were asked whether these kinds of risks and realities 519 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: of your work were worth it. 520 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 3: When I was blind for it and bound and getting 521 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 3: punched in the face, I said, why do I do this? 522 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 3: Who cares about Libya? Why do I care about Libya? 523 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 3: You know, these are questions I asked myself repeatedly. I 524 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 3: do it because I believe in it. I do it 525 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 3: because I think our policy makers need to have a 526 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 3: first hand view of what's happening on the ground to 527 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 3: make informed decisions. I think it's very important. But is 528 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 3: it worth my life? Is it worth doing this to 529 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 3: the people I love? 530 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: It's a difficult question. They were traumatic days. I can 531 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: see that from the descriptions you've given before. But how 532 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: can you encapsulate what happened in those eight days after 533 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: you abducted in twenty eleven with other journalists? 534 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was taken hostage with three other journalists for 535 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 2: the New York Times, three men. We were blindfolded, tied up, 536 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: beaten up. As the only woman, I was groped repeatedly 537 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 2: by numerous men. And the most terrifying thing about being 538 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 2: in captivity is that you have no idea what will 539 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 2: come next, and so it's really about getting through minute 540 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 2: by minute and can I survive being punched in the 541 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 2: face and groped and breathed on punched in the face. Yeah. 542 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 2: There was a moment in the very beginning of the 543 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 2: captivity where they tied me up and put me in 544 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 2: a vehicle on the front line, and they were sort 545 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 2: of laughing at us because we were literally held on 546 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 2: the front line while bullets and bombs were kind of 547 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 2: raining around us in the crossfire. And at one point 548 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 2: a soldier came over and sat next to me, and 549 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 2: I thought, very stupidly that he was going to offer 550 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 2: me water, because even in Iraq when we were held hostage, 551 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 2: they were quite kind to us. You know, they weren't 552 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 2: beating us. I mean, the bar is low, but you know, 553 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 2: they weren't beating us, and they were giving us water. 554 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 2: And so in Libya when he sat next to me, 555 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 2: I looked at him and I thought, Okay, he's going 556 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 2: to offer me water, and instead he pulled his fist 557 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 2: back and just punched me square in the face. And 558 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 2: I'm tied up, and I remember just putting my head 559 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 2: down and actually seeing stars like in the cartoons, and 560 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 2: my first thought was, oh, that's where the cartoons get 561 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 2: the stars from. And then I thought, I can't believe 562 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: this man has just punched me in the face a 563 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 2: bound woman, and so I just started crying. And you 564 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 2: don't want to make any noise because you don't want 565 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 2: to offend anyone. So I was being very quiet and 566 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 2: I just put my head down and tears were rolling 567 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 2: down my face. And then he just walked away, and 568 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 2: another man came over and put his cell phone to 569 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 2: my ear, and his wife was on the phone and 570 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 2: she said you are a dog and I said no, actually, 571 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 2: I'm a journalist and she said you are a donkey 572 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 2: and I said, no, Sahafa journalist. And it was mock executions. 573 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 2: It was threatened constantly with tonight we will kill you. 574 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 2: There were moments where one soldier had a gun to 575 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 2: my face and he was caressing my cheek with his finger, 576 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,959 Speaker 2: saying tonight we will kill you. I mean, it was 577 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 2: just a constant barrage of fear and emotions. 578 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: And you're hearing your coagues being beaten up, yeah, exactly 579 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: all the time as well. I know you lost colleagues 580 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: in other incidents in Libya, and I remember being there 581 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: in May of twenty eleven, close to where you were 582 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: that day, but filming a documentary, so away from the 583 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: front line. But I remember being in a hotel where 584 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: there was a note saying, if anyone knows where the 585 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: possessions of Tim Heatherington are, please let us know. And 586 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: this was someone you know, you'd been with him, another 587 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: journalist who was killed in that period. But I remember 588 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: the effect on me because I knew him only by name, 589 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: but seeing that little note on the wall and thinking 590 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: he stayed in this hotel and one day he went 591 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: out and he didn't come back and people are looking 592 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: for his things. It was such a tiny detail, but 593 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: it just made you think of the days when everything changes. 594 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Tim and I were together in the cornngall. 595 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 2: Actually we covered Operation Rock Avalanche together. 596 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: In Afghanistan. 597 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 2: In Afghanistan that we spoke about and made a film 598 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 2: about it. Yeah, he made an incredible film about it, Ristreppo, 599 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 2: that's worth watching. Tim was an incredible photographer. He was 600 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 2: a very thinking photographer, very sensitive, and on his way 601 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 2: into Libya, he had been emailing me asking for advice 602 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 2: on what the frontline was like, how to cover it, 603 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: what he needed to bring. And then I of course 604 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 2: went missing and he came in while I was in captivity, 605 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 2: and so we never actually saw each other. And when 606 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 2: I got out, I was dealing with my trauma of 607 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 2: what we had been through. And then about a month 608 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 2: after we had been released, I was in a meeting actually, 609 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 2: and I looked at my phone and I got a 610 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 2: message that he had been killed, along with Chris Hondros, 611 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 2: who was another incredible photographer, and their death sent me 612 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: into this tailspin that my own captivity had not. And 613 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 2: I think a lot of it had to do with 614 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 2: survivor's guilt. You know, why do some people live and 615 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 2: some people don't? You know, nothing really makes sense in 616 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 2: those moments, and there's no reason why we should be 617 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,719 Speaker 2: alive after Libya. I mean, there were so many moments 618 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: where we should have been dead, and then they got killed, 619 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 2: and so you have to ask yourself why you survive 620 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 2: and others don't. 621 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: It's a really tough question, do you ask yourself? Yeah, 622 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: because it's an impossible one to answer, so you're sort 623 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: of torturing yourself by asking it. 624 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I asked myself. I asked myself in the same 625 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 2: vein that I ask myself why I'm so driven to 626 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: do this work, despite the costs, despite the sort of 627 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 2: emotional toll and the fallout on my loved ones. 628 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: You've got young sons, and in the film we see 629 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: you bathing the little one, and he says, do you 630 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: have to go away like this? And please? Can you 631 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: only go away for one day or three days? And 632 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: you're trying to explain to him that some of the 633 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: places you go a really far away but that's really hard. 634 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 2: It's really hard. It's so hard. 635 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: I mean, keep going away, you do, keep going back 636 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: to these really tough places. 637 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 2: I do. And he keeps asking me those questions. Now 638 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 2: he's six, and even the thirteen year old, who will 639 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 2: be fourteen, they both ask me all the time. Why 640 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 2: do you have to go? Lucas says, is it dangerous? 641 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 2: Is there fighting? What do you say to is it dangerous? 642 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 2: I say it's dangerous, but I know how to stay safe. 643 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 2: And you know I don't go to where it's too dangerous. 644 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: Is that true? 645 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 2: Look, there's an unpredictability in war, you never know, but 646 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 2: there's also an unpredictability in life. I believe in this work, 647 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 2: and I believe this is where I need to be, 648 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 2: and I hope that my children can learn from that dedication. 649 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: Would you have gone to Gaza, for example, if journalists 650 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: had been allowed, Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. And 651 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: I think I, like every international journalist and war correspondent, 652 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: really struggles with the fact that no international media has 653 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: been allowed Indagaza. And I think that for any of 654 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: us who dedicate our lives to this work, the tools 655 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 1: we have to dealing with witnessing this trauma and witnessing 656 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: this devastation is to go and do something, to go 657 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: and at least be a platform for the people on 658 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: the ground, at least provide a voice for them, and 659 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 1: to have those tools taken away is incredibly debilitating. Palestinian 660 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: journalists have been documenting the war at great cost, and 661 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: they die, Yeah, some of them targeted exactly Vira over 662 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: two hundred. Do you think that there's been enough solidarity 663 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 1: with them, the fact that this is the deadliest period 664 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: I'm documented for the last thirty years for journalists Palestinian 665 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:32,399 Speaker 1: I hope. So. 666 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 2: I think we can only amplify their voices, and we 667 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 2: can also point out the incredible work they've been doing. 668 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 2: I think that we can point out the fact that 669 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 2: many journalists have been killed and targeted and hope that 670 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 2: it's not with impunity. Hope that at some point there 671 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 2: will be someone called to be responsible for this. I 672 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 2: think the fact that most Palestinian journalists are sort of 673 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 2: dismissed as being part of Hamas, which is ridiculous, and 674 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 2: for us to stand up, as in national journalists, to 675 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 2: say no, these are accredited journalists. These are people risking 676 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 2: their lives to bring the world the truth. Can we talk, 677 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 2: lindsay about images and what you've seen over your career 678 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 2: because you began your work in the age before social media, 679 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,919 Speaker 2: and the fact that we live in a world where 680 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 2: people scroll from one short form video to another, you know, 681 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 2: videos roll into each other. That how many people consume 682 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 2: information and news for that matter. What does that mean 683 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 2: for your work? Yeah, it's a very different thing. Because 684 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 2: when I first covered conflict, we were the only way 685 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 2: that a story could get out. People really relied on 686 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 2: us to tell their stories. The responsibility felt even greater. 687 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 2: Now we're in a situation where people can disseminate their 688 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 2: own stories. We're sort of inundated by images and reporting. 689 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 2: I think the main thing that we have to be 690 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 2: conscious of is it's so important to understand where you're 691 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 2: getting your information, and so when you see something on 692 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 2: social media, no one cannot automatically take it as truth. 693 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 2: And now in the age of AI, it's hard to 694 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 2: verify images. You cannot just look at an image and 695 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 2: know that it's reality. And so I think that the 696 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 2: role of journalists is more important than ever because we 697 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 2: really have a responsibility to make sure we're doing our 698 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 2: job as responsible journalists, that we're doing the fact checking, 699 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 2: we're getting the facts straight. And I think that it 700 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 2: is it's very important. 701 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: Is it harder for an image that you or anyone 702 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: else takes to have lasting impact? I'm remembering the National 703 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:38,479 Speaker 1: Geographic cover with the young, nasty instant mc curry, Yeah, 704 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 1: that's right, and then the image of the refugee child drowned. 705 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:44,879 Speaker 2: The beach and Vietnam you'll mention. 706 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,760 Speaker 1: So images like that, which you and I both remember. 707 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 1: Is it harder now, when again, we have so much 708 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: coming in for anything to have that kind of impact? 709 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, you know, Eilon CURTI was at 710 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 2: a time where we did have social media already and 711 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 2: that image rose. 712 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: To the top, But it was before TikTok, it. 713 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 2: Was it was before TikTok, But I think we were 714 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 2: at that point already inundated by images. You know, there 715 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 2: were so many images from the refugee crisis coming out, 716 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 2: and that image was so poignant because of the position 717 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 2: of that little boy, the fact that he looked like 718 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 2: he was sleeping. He could have been any one of 719 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 2: our children. It's very difficult with images because people need 720 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 2: to find a window to relate. They need to find 721 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 2: a way into an image, and so if it's too graphic, 722 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 2: often people will turn away because it's too hard right now, 723 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:39,879 Speaker 2: especially right now. 724 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 1: And do you think of that as you're taking the picture? 725 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 2: I do you think of that? 726 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: Have to frame it slightly differently, to almost sanitize it 727 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: a bit. No, what I do is I'll shoot in 728 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: many different ways. I mean, I will shoot the sort 729 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: of pure graphicness, and I will also just shoot. I'll 730 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: try to make it more palatable. I'll try to make 731 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: an image that I think the public in the handle 732 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: and that the New York Times will actually publish, because 733 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:04,479 Speaker 1: most people will not. 734 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 2: Publish an image that is gratuitously graphic. 735 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: But what is the change you've seen? I'm wondering if 736 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: the appetite for the graphic image is less now. 737 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 2: Well, I think the appetite is less, but actually the 738 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 2: tolerance is more because we see so many graphic images. 739 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 2: If you look at the images that have come out 740 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 2: of Gaza, I mean they're horrific, because what's happening there 741 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 2: is horrific. I mean you see children being pulled from 742 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 2: the rubble, you see mothers over their children. There's no 743 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: end to the horrors we see coming out of Gaza. 744 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 2: It's not to say that those images will be published 745 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 2: in print, but they certainly are out there, and I 746 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,919 Speaker 2: think we as a public are used to seeing them 747 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 2: over and over. And that's a pretty devastating place to be, 748 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 2: you know, where we are at a place where I 749 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 2: can look at an image and say that is the 750 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 2: most horrible thing I've ever seen, But actually I saw 751 00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 2: that same image yesterday. 752 00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: In these interviewes, I normally ask people about their weekends, 753 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 1: but I feel like with you, it's yeah, you're laughing 754 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,399 Speaker 1: because I get it, Like it's not a week day, 755 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 1: what's a weekend? But is there a key dividing line 756 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 1: between being on assignment and being at home? Is that 757 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: the fundamental dividing again in your life. 758 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, when I'm working, there are no weekends, obviously, and 759 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 2: when i'm home, I'm still working all the time. But 760 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 2: I do try to carve out time with my kids. 761 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 2: Sometimes my thirteen year old wants nothing to do with 762 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 2: me anyway, so it doesn't really matter. But I'm there 763 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 2: and I'm cooking for them, and I'm trying to be present. 764 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: But the work doesn't stop because you're doing the captions 765 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: and you're processing the images, and you're probably thinking about 766 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: the next the next assignment. 767 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 2: I'm planning the next assignment and I'm writing another book 768 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 2: right now, so that's taking up a lot of time. 769 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: And you exercise. We see exercising in the film, and 770 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,360 Speaker 1: it really made me think about the level of physical 771 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,399 Speaker 1: fitness that is not nice to have. It's essential for 772 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:55,959 Speaker 1: your job. 773 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,759 Speaker 2: It is. I mean, most people who do my job 774 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 2: are men, most of them are young men, and so 775 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,359 Speaker 2: I am in my fifties and I have to be fit. 776 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 2: I have to be able to carry gear, I have 777 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 2: to be able to run with it. I have to 778 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 2: just not let my physical fitness ever get in the 779 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 2: way of work. 780 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: How do you switch off? 781 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,240 Speaker 2: I switch off when I'm with my friends and family, 782 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 2: you know, I make a conscious effort to come home 783 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,320 Speaker 2: from six weeks in Ukraine and throw a dinner party 784 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 2: for twenty five people because it makes me happy. 785 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it makes me happy, but I mean the 786 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: complexities of human life and your domestic life and human 787 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: arrangements that can be messy in a way that perhaps 788 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: when you're on assignment you're in a certain mode. 789 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 2: Well, when I'm on assignment, I try not to think 790 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,280 Speaker 2: too much about my kids and my family because then 791 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 2: I feel like it will affect too much the decisions 792 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 2: I'm making on the ground, and I have to really 793 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 2: stay focused, and so I'm not facetiming with my kids 794 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,879 Speaker 2: every day. I'm not talking to my husband. I'm trying 795 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 2: not to be too distracted by my kids. Really, But 796 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 2: when you picture them, because you do think visually, when 797 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 2: you picture the home life, the perfect weekend, the perfect 798 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 2: home moment, what do you see? What's the image in 799 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:18,720 Speaker 2: your mind's eye, just sort of me in the kitchen, 800 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 2: cooking or baking, and the kids coming in and out 801 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 2: doing their thing. We have a very unconventional life, much 802 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 2: like how I was raised, because we let the kids 803 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 2: have a fair amount of freedom in deciding how they 804 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 2: want to spend their weekends. 805 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:37,239 Speaker 1: But your life has these two extremes, yeah, does, and 806 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: you that's the way you want it. I presume I 807 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: don't really have a choice. I mean, I think when 808 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,840 Speaker 1: I decided to have a family, that meant living between 809 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 1: two very dramatic extremes, and it meant sort of being 810 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:57,560 Speaker 1: torn always between these two worlds. Lindsay Adara, thank you, 811 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:06,800 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. And that's the Michelle Hussein Show 812 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: for this week. If you subscribe, you'll know as soon 813 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,720 Speaker 1: as a new episode hits the feed. And to everyone 814 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: who's rated us here or left comments, thank you. We 815 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: do also have an email Michelle Show at Bloomberg dot net. 816 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 1: If you'd like to watch these conversations, they're on YouTube 817 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 1: and Bloomberg TV, and there's a text version with my 818 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,920 Speaker 1: notes for added context. Those are at Bloomberg dot com 819 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,840 Speaker 1: slash Weekend. The show's producers are Jessica Beck and Chris Martinu. 820 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: The executive producer is Louisa Lewis. Our sound engineer is 821 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:46,759 Speaker 1: Richard Ward. Video editing Toby Babalola and Evando Thompson. Guestbooking 822 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: Dave Warren, Social media Alex Morgan, and the music is 823 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: by Bart Walshaw. At Bloomberg Weekend, Brendan Francis Nunham is 824 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 1: Editorial director of Audio and Special Projects, and our executive 825 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: editor is Catherine Bell. We'd also like to thank Summersadi 826 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,800 Speaker 1: and the Bloomberg Podcast team, and thank you for listening 827 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 1: until next weekend. Goodbye,