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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. And there's

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Speaker 2: chalk and cherries here too. And this is stuff you

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Speaker 2: should know about humanism, which I find fairly relatable in

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Speaker 2: a lot of ways and in other ways not necessarily.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Can we we'll get into it.

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Speaker 3: Can we say Whatlivia titled this one? She's been really

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Speaker 3: killing it lately.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead.

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Speaker 2: This is on humanism, the bright side of being a

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Speaker 2: godless heathen.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 3: I was looking for that, aha definition, because that put

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Speaker 3: it about as good as anything in this whole article.

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Speaker 3: The is it American Humanist Association? Is it an association?

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Speaker 2: Yes, they are associated.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: They put it like this, It's a progressive philosophy of

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Speaker 3: life that without theism or other supernatural beliefs. Bit of

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Speaker 3: a dig affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical

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Speaker 3: lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good.

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Speaker 3: And of course, if you don't know what theism is,

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Speaker 3: we're talking about, you know, religion and God. So it's like, hey,

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Speaker 3: you can be a good person and have a moral

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Speaker 3: and ethical center and strive to do those things without God.

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Speaker 3: At the center of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And most humanists, I yeah, I think

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Speaker 2: it's fair to say most are atheists or at least agnostic. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: at the very least if they do believe in a God,

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Speaker 2: he's not an interventionist God. He's not playing our role

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Speaker 2: in our lives day to day. Maybe you could also

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Speaker 2: interchange that definition of God with the universe or nature

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Speaker 2: or something like that, but not God in any religious

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Speaker 2: way whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, like if you do believe that, a

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Speaker 2: lot of like like strict humanists will say, well, you

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Speaker 2: can't really be a humanist because not believing in God

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Speaker 2: in that sense is a core part of humanism. And

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Speaker 2: a lot of other people say, hey, you're a humanist.

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Speaker 2: Who are you to tell me what I believe? Now

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Speaker 2: the humanist says, you got me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: And as we'll see it, you know, it had kind

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Speaker 3: of been tangled up with religion here and there until

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Speaker 3: it kind of landed eventually where it did.

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Speaker 1: And we're gonna talk a little bit about the history though.

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Speaker 3: That term humanism goes back to at least Cicero in

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Speaker 3: first century BCE, Rome, when that very famous writer and

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Speaker 3: I think lawyer and Statesman use the word humanitis to

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Speaker 3: describe like people developing or the development of these qualities,

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Speaker 3: these virtuous qualities that Chuck will talk about, like a

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Speaker 3: moral and ethical center, compassion, good judgment, like being a

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Speaker 3: good person and doing good things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then we leap frog all the way over

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Speaker 2: to the Renaissance. And you'll know that we leapt over

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Speaker 2: what are called the Middle Ages, the Dark Ages, Medieval era.

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Speaker 2: The Renaissance humanists are the ones who gave us the

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Speaker 2: term and the idea of the Dark Ages, that there

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Speaker 2: was a part of history where essentially the Church ruled

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Speaker 2: everything with an iron fist. Corruption was rampant, and people

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Speaker 2: were removed from their relationship with God and the Church

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Speaker 2: was inserted. And what these earliest Renaissance humanists did. They

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Speaker 2: were all Christians to a person, most of them Catholics too.

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Speaker 2: They changed that whole idea and said, what happens if

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Speaker 2: we get the church out from between the individual and God.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's a connection between you, this person who

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Speaker 2: is important and matters just because you're a person, and

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Speaker 2: God who made you. And this is where the very

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Speaker 2: beginnings of humanism find themselves. Even though no one in

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Speaker 2: the Renaissance would have called themselves a humanist because that

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Speaker 2: concept didn't really exist quite yet. This is the first step.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, looking back, we apply the tag to

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Speaker 3: a lot of different people. We're going to talk about

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Speaker 3: some of them, but yeah, they wouldn't have called themselves that.

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Speaker 1: Then.

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Speaker 3: Petrarch was probably looked at as maybe the first humanists

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Speaker 3: or the first modern man sometimes called. And in the Renaissance,

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Speaker 3: it was it was a pretty hot ticket depending on

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Speaker 3: what crowd you ran with. If you were among the

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Speaker 3: elites in the Renaissance, you might have hired humanist scholars

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Speaker 3: to come and teach your kids all about like sort

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Speaker 3: of the moral systems of the classical era to you know,

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Speaker 3: and very much in the effort, like you were saying,

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Speaker 3: to bring us out of what they call the dark ages.

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Speaker 3: And some aspects of this whole movement in the Renaissance

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Speaker 3: included three things we're gonna kind of touch on here

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Speaker 3: are realism, dignity of the individual human, and application of learning,

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Speaker 3: like putting it in to practice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So humanism contrasted with scholasticism, which had been going

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Speaker 2: on for hundreds of years. It was essentially the church's

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Speaker 2: form of teaching and that was basically reconciling the concept

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Speaker 2: of reality that came from the classical Greeks like Aristotle

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Speaker 2: with scripture and basically using scripture to explain the world

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Speaker 2: and reality as it is. And these humanists came along

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Speaker 2: and they were like, what happens if we stopped doing that?

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Speaker 2: What happens if we just study the classical Greeks and

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Speaker 2: just basically also still stay Christians, but stop using this scripture.

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Speaker 2: This received wisdom that the Church gives us, what if

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Speaker 2: we study it ourselves instead? And that brings up that

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Speaker 2: other the second part you mentioned, which is the dignity

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Speaker 2: of the individual human Up to this point, individuality was

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Speaker 2: not prized. You were not supposed to look inside yourself.

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Speaker 2: You're supposed to look outside the glory of God, you yourself.

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Speaker 2: If you paid too much attention to yourself, that was

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Speaker 2: a quick one way trip to hell for you when

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Speaker 2: you died. The humanists were like, no, let's look inside ourselves,

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Speaker 2: like we're important, you the individual is important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And also part of that first one with the realism

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Speaker 3: was that we are flawed. So if we want to

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Speaker 3: learn about each individual and human the nature, what it

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Speaker 3: means to be human, we have to look at the

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Speaker 3: bad stuff too, like the vices and the disorders and

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Speaker 3: things like that. And then that last one that I

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Speaker 3: mentioned was application of learning, like all this stuff is great,

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Speaker 3: but it's not naval gazing like or we don't want

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Speaker 3: it to be navel gazing. We want to actually stimulate action.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're not learning just so you can give

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Speaker 2: more money to the church or something like that too.

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Speaker 2: And if this sounds a little bit like Protestant thought

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Speaker 2: about the connection between the individual and God, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 2: These thinkers eventually led to the Protestant Reformation, which basically

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Speaker 2: pushed the face of the church off to the side

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Speaker 2: and said you and me God we're connected.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 3: And it'll also tie into the Unitarian Church in a

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Speaker 3: big way later on. A church that has interested me,

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Speaker 3: oh yeah, yeah, I mean, I like my Sunday's free,

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Speaker 3: so probably not going to go.

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Speaker 1: But if any quote unquote church.

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Speaker 3: Appeals to me at this age and where I am

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Speaker 3: in life is definitely those guys.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, those people that you see out and about at

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Speaker 2: like ten am on a Sunday. Can give that a

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Speaker 2: little knowing head nod too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So something I think is we're pointing out real

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Speaker 2: quick though, to Chuck is everything we're talking about involves God.

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Speaker 2: Even though the Church has been pushed out of the way,

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Speaker 2: God has not. Yeah, God is still front and center.

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Speaker 2: Christianity is still the most important thing around, and that

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Speaker 2: is this is the cradle of humanism. And one of

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Speaker 2: the frequent criticisms of modern humanism is that it's never

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Speaker 2: really shaken off its birthright from Catholicism or Christianity, even

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Speaker 2: though it opposes religion itself. We'll get more into that,

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Speaker 2: but I just wanted to put that out there for

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Speaker 2: the moment.

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Speaker 3: And we're also talking about like coming out of a

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Speaker 3: time where atheism could get you killed. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 3: like saying that there is no God, you know, was

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Speaker 3: against the law unpunishable by death for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but that started to change gradually around beginning in

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Speaker 2: the seventeenth century. One of the people we have to

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Speaker 2: thank for that is Francis Bacon. Yeah, known as the

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Speaker 2: father of empiricism. He also invented bacon and he also

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Speaker 2: had a big hand into coming up with the scientific method.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we talked about him and that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, which has been largely abandoned by science

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Speaker 2: in the last one hundred years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, he argued for really studying like like what

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Speaker 3: we call social sciences. Now he kind of kicked that

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Speaker 3: off as well, the systemic study of like the human passions.

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Speaker 3: But all these people that we're gonna talk about here

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Speaker 3: in the next little bit, we're Christians. So this is

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Speaker 3: sort of this is where it was still a time

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Speaker 3: when it was still tangled up even though they had

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Speaker 3: these ideas, All of these people, Bacon and this next person,

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Speaker 3: Thomas Hobbes, were Christian.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the fact that there are Christians who identify

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Speaker 2: themselves as humanists and vice versa, that goes to show you,

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Speaker 2: like that those two things are not incompatible. Yeah, you

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Speaker 2: can be religious and care about human beings and like

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Speaker 2: they don't have to oppose one another, although humanists have

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Speaker 2: eventually said yes they do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's the deal, right, I mean, did

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Speaker 3: I read that correctly? Is that it's the modern humanist

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Speaker 3: movement was really where they were like, we're really separate

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Speaker 3: from and congruous with belief in God.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, Okay, so we mentioned Bacon. What about Thomas

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Speaker 2: Hobbes because he came up with the social contract, which

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Speaker 2: is ba like you and me. We basically allow a

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Speaker 2: government to rule us in exchange for protecting us from nasty, brutish,

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Speaker 2: short lives which we would otherwise have without the state

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Speaker 2: or without society. Right. That doesn't sound very humanist, even

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Speaker 2: though it's human centered, because he assumed that humans were

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Speaker 2: essentially bad and we'd club you over the head and

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Speaker 2: kill you first chance. They got. That's why we need government,

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Speaker 2: according to Hobbes. But he's considered one of the early

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Speaker 2: humanists for sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and he was Christian as well, but he did

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Speaker 3: not write a lot like and his writings didn't write

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Speaker 3: a lot about God. He kind of put that to

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Speaker 3: the side and said, you know, if we want to

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Speaker 3: understand who we are and what it means to be human,

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Speaker 3: we have to look at it through a just a

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Speaker 3: very sort of secular and like, very reasoned approach.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly, so humanist rationalism to understand ourselves in the world.

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Speaker 2: Thomas Paine was also one. He was probably Yeah, he

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Speaker 2: was like the first person that you can point to

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Speaker 2: and be like, the guy's a humanist. He even says

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Speaker 2: so himself in not so many words, or more than

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Speaker 2: those words. He was a pamphleteer who helped get the

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Speaker 2: American Revolution started despite moving to America just two years

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Speaker 2: before the revolution started. That's how effective his pamphlets were.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he was very forward thinking. He was arguing very

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Speaker 3: early against slavery. He's had an idea for what we

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Speaker 3: might call universal basic income now, very much believe in

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Speaker 3: the equality of all humans. And he has this quote

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Speaker 3: that's really pretty great, like I'm a big pain guy.

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Speaker 3: After reading up more on him, Sure, my country is

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Speaker 3: the world that my religion is to do good. Pretty nice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's pretty much no better way to sum up

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Speaker 2: the humanist view in a nutshell than that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The French Revolution also, there's a couple of people who

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Speaker 2: get called out a lot, Jacqui Beart and Twant Francois Momorro,

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Speaker 2: because they established the cult of Reason, where they would

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Speaker 2: actually go in and seize churches in France during the

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Speaker 2: revolution and repurposed them. I saw into Temples of Reason.

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Speaker 2: I read about them on the Collector, which is a

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Speaker 2: great website that explains all sorts of different philosophies and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Great website. Anyway, the French Revolution itself basically said Catholic Church,

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Speaker 2: you're out. And then they were like, okay, well, wait

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Speaker 2: a minute. We're all about reason and enlightenment. What are

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Speaker 2: we going to fill the vacuum left by getting rid

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Speaker 2: of the Catholic Church? And all of these ideas like

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Speaker 2: the Cult of Reason kind of came along, which was

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Speaker 2: essentially create humanist temples to logic in humans and humanity,

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Speaker 2: remove God from the equation altogether.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 3: And buddy, do you think I like Thomas Bain. Don't

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Speaker 3: get me started on Jeremy Bentham, because after reading up

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Speaker 3: on Jeremy Bentham, I wish I had named my daughter

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Speaker 3: Jeremy Bentham Bryant.

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Speaker 2: That would have been a great name.

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Speaker 3: I really missed an opportunity because Jeremy Bentham was a

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Speaker 3: great dude. He was working for welfare, fair programs for

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Speaker 3: the poor early on. He didn't believe in slavery obviously

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Speaker 3: child labor, and this was like decades before anyone else

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Speaker 3: was talking about this stuff. He was into animals. And

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Speaker 3: we'll see. That's some of the criticism from humanists is

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Speaker 3: that they kind of stop at humans. And that's not

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Speaker 3: to say that humanists can't be like pro animal or

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Speaker 3: pro environment, because most of them probably are right but

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Speaker 3: ben them very early on when it talked about like

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Speaker 3: the suffering of animals, he said, the question is not

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Speaker 3: can they reason, because that's what animals were, just animals,

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Speaker 3: because they can't reason, they have brains like us. He

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Speaker 3: combatd that with the question is not can they reason

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Speaker 3: nor can they talk? But can they suffer?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? What a thing to say in the seventeen hundreds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad you explained what you meant by he

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Speaker 2: was into animals because I was confused at first.

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Speaker 1: Oh, come on.

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Speaker 2: One of the other cool things about Jeremy Bentham is

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Speaker 2: he willed his body to science. He donated to science

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Speaker 2: early on and they used it. They said, thanks a lot, buddy,

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Speaker 2: here's your skeleton back. Because as part of his wishes,

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Speaker 2: he wanted to remain at University College London, which he helped

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Speaker 2: found as a secular college open to everybody. And he's

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Speaker 2: still under glass at the University of College of London,

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Speaker 2: dressed up in his own clothes. He's got wax hands

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Speaker 2: with gloves on, he has a wax head and apparently

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Speaker 2: he originally wanted his head to be part of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so they used some I guess some Maori technique of

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Speaker 2: desiccation and it didn't go very well, and his descated

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Speaker 2: head is still around. But they're like, Jeremy, you do

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Speaker 2: not want us to leave this on your body because

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Speaker 2: you look so great with the wax head. We're just

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Speaker 2: going to keep this separate under class itself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Up with Jeremy Bentham?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you mentioned the secular college Like he went well

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Speaker 3: beyond like the separation of church and state, where he

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Speaker 3: was like, colleges should have nothing to do.

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Speaker 1: There should not be religious colleges.

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Speaker 3: He really wanted to draw a strong divide between God

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Speaker 3: and kind of all the institutions.

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Speaker 2: Right. He was also the father of utilitarianism, which is essentially,

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Speaker 2: if at its worst, killing one person saves two people,

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Speaker 2: then you kill that person, which gave us things like

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Speaker 2: the trolley problem as a utilitarian thought experiment. Essentially, Bentham,

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Speaker 2: I think, didn't really think that way, but he was

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Speaker 2: basically like, we want to maximize the most good for

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Speaker 2: the most people. That's the way he developed it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty cool stuff.

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Speaker 3: You want to take a break, Yeah, I think we're

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Speaker 3: off to a hot start, So I'm gonna go take

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Speaker 3: a cold shower and we'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Chuck, we're back, and we're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: the development of humanism in the way that we know

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Speaker 2: it today, because up to this point we've been talking

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Speaker 2: about a little bits here, little bits there that all

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Speaker 2: together changed the world and essentially took all the power

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Speaker 2: in the West, especially Europe and eventually the United States,

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Speaker 2: away from the Church and organized religions in general and said, no,

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Speaker 2: there's a way for you to live an upstanding, meaningful,

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Speaker 2: ethical life without even believing that there's a God or

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Speaker 2: in afterlife. And here's how we're going to do it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the idea at the time, and there's

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Speaker 3: still people that believe this in twenty twenty six. Which

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Speaker 3: is pretty scary, is that if you were not religious

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Speaker 3: and devout, then you were a heathen and you were

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Speaker 3: like morally bereft. And those like people very early on

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Speaker 3: stood up and were like that didn't make any sense,

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Speaker 3: Like why is it I don't believe in God? Like

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Speaker 3: people have feelings in their heart or whatever. And someone realized, like,

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Speaker 3: why is it that in my heart? Like I don't

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Speaker 3: believe in a God, but like I believe in doing

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Speaker 3: like really good things, Like why are those tho? Why

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Speaker 3: are those two things have to be tied together. And

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Speaker 3: that was humanism, or if you look at philosopher and

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Speaker 3: theologian from Germany Friedrich Niedhama, the term was HUMANISMUS in

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Speaker 3: eighteen oh eight, and that is he was kind of

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Speaker 3: talking about that Renaissance humanism, those studies that they were

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Speaker 3: doing with the people that are trying to sort of

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Speaker 3: reform education during the Renaissance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but very quickly people latched onto that. He just

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Speaker 2: kind of came along at the right He was in

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Speaker 2: the right place at the right time, Yeah, which was Germany,

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Speaker 2: because Germany eventually became kind of the cradle of modern humanism,

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Speaker 2: and eventually humanismths what we would call humanism now we

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Speaker 2: just dropped the US or the US And if you

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Speaker 2: kind of subscribe to that, it was way beyond the

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Speaker 2: way that you interpreted scripture. You supported women's equality, You

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Speaker 2: were all about separation of church and state. You had

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Speaker 2: compassion for all people, not just people that looked like

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Speaker 2: you and had the same amount of money as you.

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Speaker 2: You cared about actually doing stuff to get the government

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Speaker 2: to take care of poverty and things like that. Like Quakers.

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Speaker 2: The conception of Quakers at this time was a really

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Speaker 2: good view of what it meant to be a humanist

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Speaker 2: at the time, because you still believed in God, but

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Speaker 2: you really cared about other people. And this was fairly

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Speaker 2: new for Europe at the time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, you mentioned the French Revolution, but in

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Speaker 3: the nineteenth century, during the time of all those European revolutions,

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Speaker 3: was it also started to kind of touch on socialism,

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Speaker 3: of course, and like this idea of a utopian society

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Speaker 3: that we could strive for. It was starting to become

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Speaker 3: a little more acceptable in the United States at the time,

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Speaker 3: where well partially because of German immigration to the United

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Speaker 3: States and you were talking about them being the cradle,

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Speaker 3: but also Charles Darwin and just this idea that you

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Speaker 3: don't need these theist beliefs to be a good person,

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Speaker 3: and there's something called free thought that can happen, like

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Speaker 3: prethinking is very much at this time aligne with deism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. And free thought essentially as a concept

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Speaker 2: is it's just questioning everything, Yeah, especially received wisdom. You

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Speaker 2: stop and ask click, well, wait a minute, why do

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Speaker 2: I think that? How do I know that? You just

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Speaker 2: challenge all of your own assumptions, and by doing that

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Speaker 2: you can kind of free yourself from being indoctrinated by

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Speaker 2: the man essentially. So this is when it seems to

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Speaker 2: me the progressive movement in the United States really started

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Speaker 2: to come about. Yeah, right, this is the till late

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Speaker 2: nineteenth century. One of the next big things that happened

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Speaker 2: was the establishment of the New York Society for Ethical

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Speaker 2: Culture by again named Felix Adler. And this became essentially

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Speaker 2: the ethical movement E in capital E, capital M. And

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Speaker 2: they were basically like the very first humanists. They tried

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Speaker 2: to essentially provide the same thing, that's say, moral upstanding

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Speaker 2: structure that the church provides for so many people to

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Speaker 2: people who don't believe in God.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and not more than that. But alongside that, I

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Speaker 3: think they realized that the church had something that people

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Speaker 3: clearly liked in tradition and in ceremony, and they're like, hey,

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Speaker 3: if we're going to be a thing like, maybe we

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Speaker 3: should have some of that stuff too. So they organized

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Speaker 3: Sunday services and they said, how about a how about

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Speaker 3: a deist marriage ceremony, like kind of substituting religious ritual

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Speaker 3: for non religious ritual because people like that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, They're like, how about atheist holy communion, and the

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Speaker 2: humanists are like, how does that work?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: They're like, oh, we don't know. This is new. We're

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Speaker 2: just throwing everything we can at the wall. See what sticks.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe instead of the blood and body of Jesus,

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Speaker 3: it's just crackers and grape juice.

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Speaker 2: There you go. And they were like grape juice or flavory,

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Speaker 2: and they're like, grape juice.

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Speaker 3: We used grape We used grape juice at our church

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Speaker 3: because even the Baptist did not take wine as a communion.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of funny to think about.

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Speaker 2: I remember moving to the South and being like, you

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Speaker 2: don't drink any wine, like even in church because I

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Speaker 2: was raised Catholic.

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Speaker 1: Welch's baby.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's funny. So this whole kind of evolution is

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Speaker 2: still going on. In the United States in particular, it

392
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Speaker 2: started to take off. Humanism really is huge today or

393
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Speaker 2: through the twentieth century in the US and the UK.

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Speaker 2: They're kind of like hotbeds for humanist activity. And the

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Speaker 2: people who were attracted to this were very frequently liberal intellectuals, yeah, philosophers, literati,

396
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Speaker 2: intelligentsia like academic elites and people who ran in their circles,

397
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Speaker 2: which included communists at the time in the twenties and thirties,

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Speaker 2: like basically super radical liberal thinkers were very much attracted

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Speaker 2: to the early establishment of modern humanist organizations.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. That in the United States in particular, the University

401
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Speaker 3: of Chicago nineteen twenty seven was one place where it

402
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Speaker 3: really got cooking. There were efforts there by students and

403
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Speaker 3: so professors who belonged and this is where the Unitarian

404
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 3: Church comes into play. They were Unitarian Church members, which

405
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Speaker 3: is technically Protestant denomination. It's very political, has always been

406
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Speaker 3: very politically progressive. And in this group in Chicago, there

407
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Speaker 3: were a lot of ministers, even in theologians who had

408
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Speaker 3: non Christian ideas that they were putting forth, like transcendentalism,

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Speaker 3: and they had a magazine. They organized what was called

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Speaker 3: the Humanist Fellowship and put out the New Humanist Magazine.

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Speaker 2: It was like all ads though yeah, probably so all

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Speaker 2: ads and perfume samples.

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Speaker 3: Well, and at the very end they had the little

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Speaker 3: fold thing like the Mad magazine did.

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Speaker 1: It's very popular.

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Speaker 3: But they were trying to move Unitarian and as Unitarianism,

417
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Speaker 3: even in nineteen twenty seven, completely away from Theism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and Unitarian Unitarianism as a church was like, yeah,

419
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Speaker 2: let's go and then stop just short. And that's where

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Speaker 2: it stays today. Essentially, they're like, you don't believe in God, Great,

421
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Speaker 2: you can be a member of our church. Do you

422
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Speaker 2: believe in God? Yeah, great, you can be a member

423
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Speaker 2: of our church. It's universalist Unitarian. Right.

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Speaker 1: Should we talk about the manifestos?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because you can't have liberal thinkers and communists together

426
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Speaker 2: and not come up with a manifesto. Right, It's just

427
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 2: going to naturally bubble up from those people being together.

428
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Speaker 2: And in nineteen thirty three, I think they drafted the

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Speaker 2: first humanist manifesto and it basically said so and this

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Speaker 2: is where this is one reason why religious people don't

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Speaker 2: like humanists. It took direct aim at religion, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then this is why people who are religious don't

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Speaker 2: like humanists. It also called humanism its own type of religion. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: take that, chuck and run with it.

435
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Speaker 3: Mixed messages. Can I read this bit from the seventy

436
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Speaker 3: three manifesto?

437
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 2: Yeah?

438
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: Or wait?

439
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 3: This was Okay? The seventy three was a manifesto Part two?

440
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry, nineteen thirty thirtight. I believe thirty three was

441
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 2: the first one, I think, thank you, we got there.

442
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 3: Okay, thirty three was the first one. Seventy three was

443
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 3: Manifesto two, and this was from seventy three. Using technology wisely,

444
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 3: we can control our environment, conquer poverty, markedly reduced disease,

445
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 3: extend our lifespan, significantly modify our behavior, alter the course

446
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,880
Speaker 3: of human evolution and cultural development, unlock vast new powers.

447
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 3: Starting to sound a little bit like scientology there, and

448
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 3: provide humankind with unparalleled opportunity for achieving an abundant and

449
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 3: meaningful life.

450
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it also smacks of transhumanism too. Oh yeah, it's

451
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 2: just denoted by h plus Stellarc. It's a branch. Yeah,

452
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 2: it's a branch of humanism where you graft a human

453
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 2: ear onto your forearm.

454
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 1: Right. Oh boy, man, I can't believe you remembered his name.

455
00:25:58,400 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 1: It just came right up.

456
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 3: If you're a long time listener, you remember when we

457
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 3: first talked about Stellarc, the transhumanists who did, in fact,

458
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 3: graft a human ear to his arm, complete with a

459
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 3: little speaker like it heard and worked, right, Yeah.

460
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: I think it. Yeah, I had a Bluetooth speaker which

461
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 2: is probably dead by now.

462
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 1: How many c tips do you think that guy's gone through.

463
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 2: Oh, crisps, he's like got catch up in there again.

464
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: Oh man.

465
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 2: So the reason that they wrote the nineteen seventy three

466
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 2: Manifesto two was because Manifesto one had a lot of well,

467
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 2: it was of its time. Yeah, it was very pro

468
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 2: communist and socialism, it was anti capitalist. It even said, quote,

469
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 2: the existing acquisitive and profit motivating society has shown itself

470
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 2: to be inadequate. Yeah, it said it was a religion.

471
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: So in nineteen seventy three they're like, let's just kind

472
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 2: of get rid of some of this. Let's not call

473
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: ourselves a religion of any kind. We'll still take aim

474
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 2: at religion, but we're not going to call ourselves a religion.

475
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 2: We're going to drop the whole life communist, capitalist, you know,

476
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: West Coast, East Coast war in our own manifesto.

477
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

478
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: And then as time went on, there were more affirmations,

479
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 2: there were more manifestos. There was one in nineteen eighty,

480
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight, two thousand and three, in two thousand

481
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 2: and two, so all these were American, by the way.

482
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 2: In two thousand and two it finally went international, which

483
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 2: what's called the Amsterdam Declaration of Humanism from two thousand

484
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 2: and two, and it basically it basically says like, yeah,

485
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: everything these guys have been saying, but take out the

486
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 2: religion stuff and the anti capitalist stuff.

487
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: That's right.

488
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 3: And they said, we need a word though, if we're

489
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 3: going to be consistent, and so instead of religion, let's

490
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 3: settle on this word life stance.

491
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 2: You were like, oh, sure, sure, LifeStance.

492
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: Everyone knows what that is. We did a little digging.

493
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 3: It's a pretty obscure term. I think Wikipedia, which is

494
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 3: not a website. We really like to go to a

495
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 3: lot for this, but that's kind of the only place

496
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 3: we could find anything. But this is how they define

497
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 3: it is the relation that one has with what he

498
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 3: or she accepts as being of ultimate importance.

499
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: That's a great definition of life stance for sure. Yeah,

500
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: it really gets across. And essentially it's what they use

501
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 2: in place of religion, not just what they offer, what

502
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 2: humanism offers people, but what people need. And that's one

503
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 2: thing that humanism is always basically said, is you need

504
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 2: the things that religion give to you, like people need that.

505
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: It's been around for thousands of years for a reason, right, Yeah,

506
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 2: And there's all these different ones around the world that

507
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: billions and billions of people subscribe to because it gives

508
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: their life meaning, It gives you purpose, it tells you

509
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: how to be a good person. And humanists were like,

510
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: all we're saying is that you don't need religion. You

511
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 2: don't even need to believe in God to have all

512
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: those same things. And as the world and in particular

513
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 2: the United States and the West, has gotten more and

514
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: more secular and less and less religious, there's this there's

515
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: a debate that's developed, like, is humanism up to the

516
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 2: task of providing meaning in people's lives in the absence

517
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: of religion, And that definitely remains to be seen, but

518
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 2: it seems to be leaning a little more like No, Actually,

519
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 2: things kind of fall apart when you don't have a

520
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 2: lot of people who believe that their lives have meaning

521
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 2: because they believe in religion. That seems to be the

522
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 2: way things are leaning right now. That's not the endpoint

523
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 2: necessarily though.

524
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: No, for sure.

525
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 3: And you know, I think I'm like you, like, a

526
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 3: lot of this stuff seems very appealing to me, a

527
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 3: lot of the thoughts. But you know, when I was

528
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 3: reading that one thing, I was like, man, this sounds

529
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 3: a little scientology like here and there.

530
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: Sure, sure, and then let's not like LifeStance.

531
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it just feels like the kind of word where

532
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 3: you go to a meeting, like a humanist congregational meeting,

533
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 3: and they're like, and now Josh would like to rise

534
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 3: and share his life stance, and then everyone like clucks

535
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,239
Speaker 3: and goes LifeStance, LifeStance or something, right, and that's when

536
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 3: they and I like back out of the room very slowly.

537
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 2: You know what LifeStance says to me, It says I

538
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 2: don't know what I mean. That's what that word screams.

539
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 2: If you use a word to describe what you're talking

540
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 2: about and no one else knows what that word is.

541
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, it's much more widely understood.

542
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 2: Is the name of an insurance company than then? Yeah,

543
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 2: then you you kevin't figured out exactly what you're trying

544
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 2: to say. That's my take on it. And what the

545
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: reason they're using life stance is because they can't use

546
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 2: the word religion. They're using that in place of the

547
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 2: word religion. So a lot of people kind of look

548
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: at humanism like, man, these guys really tie themselves up

549
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 2: into knots to get around this religious thing. They're really

550
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 2: preoccupied with religion, despite saying you don't need religion to

551
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: live a good life. If you don't care about religion,

552
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: stop talking about religion so much. Stop focusing on religion

553
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 2: so much. That's a big criticism of humanism that it's

554
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: just it's like those you know, those hilarious parodies of

555
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: like Southern preach or whatever, and it's taking aim at

556
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: hypocrisy and stuff. If you really feel that way about

557
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: the church or religion or God or whatever, just go

558
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: your own way, do your own thing. Stop paying attention

559
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 2: to it, stop giving it your oxygen. If you really

560
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: feel that way about it, and if you don't, if

561
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: you still are focused on it like that, there's something

562
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: there's some disconnect between what you claim to believe in

563
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: what you're actually doing.

564
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 3: Brother Josh, I want to thank you for sharing your

565
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 3: afflack flat nice.

566
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: That was great, Chuck, that was great. I like that

567
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: that screed.

568
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 3: Maybe we should take a break and talk about what

569
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 3: happened in nineteen forty one right after this.

570
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: All right, everybody, we're back.

571
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 3: We're going to talk about what happened in nineteen forty one,

572
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 3: not the movie nineteen forty one from Steven Spielberg.

573
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 2: Good one.

574
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: I'm talking not really, I'm talking about did you like it?

575
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 2: Hey man, anything has got Bellushi in it? I like,

576
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 2: all right, Yeah, I don't see what was wrong with it.

577
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 3: It was a notorious bomb. But that's not to say

578
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 3: you can't like it.

579
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 2: No, I do like it. I just have never heard

580
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 2: that other people didn't like it.

581
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, it's pretty well regarded as a big plot.

582
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 3: But I appreciate you sharing your affle, Like once again.

583
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: I had that's my life stance on in nineteen forty one.

584
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 2: It's a good movie.

585
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 3: I can't wait to get sued, all right. So in

586
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 3: nineteen forty one, there were two Unitarian ministers that form

587
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 3: the AHA that we referenced at the very beginning of

588
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 3: the American Humanist Association. They, you know, they advocate for

589
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 3: humanist causes like separation of church and state of course

590
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 3: in schools that is, like, hey, let's legalize birth control,

591
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 3: things like that. They have about thirty four thousand plus

592
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 3: members with two hundred and thirty local chapters, and they're like,

593
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 3: you know, their goal is I think not only to

594
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 3: spread the word, but I think like you are saying,

595
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 3: is to like try and unify into something that's with

596
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 3: a coherent message that people can actually say, like, Hey,

597
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 3: that's a legitimate thing that you can believe in and follow.

598
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like that appeals to me. So I'm going to

599
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 2: go find out more about what you guys are saying.

600
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: So there's a guy named Andrew Cops and he's very

601
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 2: frequently cited when you're talking about humanism. He's the executive

602
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: of Chief Chief Executive of Humanists UK, and he basically says,

603
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: here's what humanists are about. One, we use the senses

604
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 2: and reasoning when we're seeking out the truth to understand

605
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: what the world's all about. We are all about rationalism.

606
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: We're all about scientific inquiry. That's what our stuff is

607
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 2: based on. It's not based on supernatural beliefs. Again, it's

608
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: not based on receive wisdom. It's about using rationalism in

609
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 2: our own senses to understand the universe for ourselves.

610
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: Yeah.

611
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 3: Can I just make a quick comment. I don't want

612
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 3: to get too political, but using the sensus and reasoning

613
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 3: like that is missing I think a lot today because

614
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 3: we're in a world now where they are very powerful

615
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 3: people in the world that are literally sort of gaslighting

616
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 3: the rest of the world and saying, like what you're

617
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 3: seeing and hearing is not the truth, Like even though

618
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 3: you're seeing it and hearing it. So to see someone

619
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 3: stand up and say, hey, one of our big tenets

620
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 3: is going to be the use like to see stuff

621
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 3: and hear stuff, and like that's what it is.

622
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I find your reasoning sensible.

623
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: Yes, aflack I flic what else?

624
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 3: Viewing humans as the product of natural biological processes and

625
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 3: seeing death is the end of individual consciousness. So you're

626
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 3: not going to an afterlife. You're not gonna go hang

627
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 3: out with Elvis and Tom Petty. Once you're gone, you're

628
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 3: a warm dirt.

629
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's nothing after that. It's a real bummer part

630
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 2: of it, for sure.

631
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: It is.

632
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 3: But I've always, well I've always in my adult life

633
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 3: believe that, and I don't think it's a bummer. That's

634
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 3: just yeah, I don't think it's a bummer.

635
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 2: You know. I believe that for years and years and years,

636
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 2: and I've just recently kind of started to I don't

637
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,240
Speaker 2: want to say go back, but just kind of expand

638
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 2: the possibilities. Yeah, that's good, more than I used to

639
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: because I was exactly what you're talking about, like that's it,

640
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 2: Like you're just it's lights out. You don't even know

641
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 2: it's lights out because you don't exist anymore. Yeah, just

642
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 2: like you didn't exist before you were born. This is

643
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 2: exactly the same thing. It's just tacked onto the end

644
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: of your life, not the beginning of your life.

645
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. I like that you're exploring that.

646
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 3: I think that's I think I'm not opposed to anyone

647
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 3: in their beliefs, So I think it's great, Especially when

648
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 3: you get older and you're in the like forties and

649
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 3: fifties and you start kind of radically.

650
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: Exploring new ideas. I think that's very valuable.

651
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: It's funny. I have been doing that a lot lately.

652
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 2: It's one of the reasons why I wanted to do

653
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 2: this episode in Humanism. I've been reading a lot of

654
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: different philosophy and just yeah, yeah, exploring ideas that I

655
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 2: hadn't before. And I didn't realize why. Apparently it's because

656
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 2: I'm about to be fifty.

657
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:21,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably, so I've been hurry.

658
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: I got I have to find meaning in life before

659
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 2: I die.

660
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,280
Speaker 1: I've been watching a lot of Kids in the Hall reruns.

661
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: Nice. You can do a lot worse than that.

662
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 3: And reading rock bios. But that's fine, everyone has their

663
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 3: own thing.

664
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: What else, Chuck, How about if you want to live

665
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 2: a good life, Yeah, what are you going to do?

666
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: Well?

667
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 3: You have to develop yourself personally, like keep striving, sure

668
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 3: to be better and do better, try to connect with others,

669
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 3: pursue things that are truly meaningful. But you don't necessarily

670
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 3: have to believe in the meaning of life to do

671
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 3: all that stuff.

672
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: That's not what you're seeking.

673
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 2: Yes, And from my recent exploration, that is essentially the

674
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 2: basis of a philosophy called existentialism, which actually, yeah, is

675
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,919
Speaker 2: born out of nihilism, and it's basically saying, yes, there's

676
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 2: no God, there's no meaning to life, we're all a fluke.

677
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean you can't live a great fulfilling life,

678
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: right that has meaning that is meaningful to you. So

679
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 2: go figure out what your life is, what you want

680
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 2: it to be, and make it meaningful. And I think

681
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 2: that's if you do believe that there's no such thing

682
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 2: as God, That to me is essentially the best mentality

683
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,959
Speaker 2: you can take on that if there's no afterlife before

684
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 2: all a fluke, then it's up to you pal to

685
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 2: go make meaning for your own life.

686
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like live with intention, I think is another good

687
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 3: way to say that, to like not just be someone

688
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 3: who things happen to.

689
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, or live without Netflix. That's another way to put it.

690
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 3: To What's another one view moral behaviors, like you know,

691
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 3: consider other people's needs, Like humanism is not a self

692
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 3: inward looking thing, like you're looking inward, but you're acting outward.

693
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: If that makes sense, Oh, it does.

694
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 2: It makes perfect sense. It's not a self centered or.

695
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: Self Yeah, self center I was looking for.

696
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're not self involved. You care about other people.

697
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 2: And yeah, by doing that, you're you're you're developing yourself.

698
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 2: That's part of self personal development. Right. You're also not

699
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 2: relying on any doctrine to teach you ethics, although you

700
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 2: can go find ethics from like say the great Greek

701
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: philosophers or Buddha or you know, Taoism or Confucianism, like

702
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 2: you can go find these from wherever you want. You

703
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 2: can even read the Bible or something and sure, you know,

704
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 2: like Thomas Jefferson edited the Bible, he took all the

705
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: miracles out and just basically made it a really great

706
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 2: moral handbook. You could do the same thing. Right and

707
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 2: still gain these idea.

708
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

709
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: The point is you're not supposed to take anything wholesale,

710
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 2: including ostensibly humanism. Like you should not just go, okay,

711
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 2: I want to be humanists, tell me how to be,

712
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 2: because they're going to say no, you got to go

713
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 2: figure that out.

714
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, you should probably start with the New Testament too

715
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 3: and just leave it at that.

716
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that Old Testament is grim.

717
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty grim.

718
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 3: You know, if you're a humanist, you're you're definitely like

719
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 3: opposed to war, you value universal rights of all humans,

720
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 3: in equality. It's not tied to a political system necessarily.

721
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 3: I mean, I know it has its roots in sort

722
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 3: of liberal progressive think, but you don't have to be like, oh,

723
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 3: I'm a registered Democrat and a humanist. Like you can

724
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 3: be anybody. I'd argue, maybe not. You could vote for anybody,

725
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 3: But as far as political affiliation, it's not tied to

726
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 3: anyone thing.

727
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 2: No, nor should it be.

728
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 3: We should probably name some famous humanists through the years.

729
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 3: You could start and end with Albert Einstein, but we're

730
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 3: just going to start there. He supported the Capital the

731
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 3: E Capital C Ethical culture movement, and was a founding

732
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 3: member of the First Humanist Society of New York, and

733
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 3: in nineteen fifty published Essays in Humanism. And he was

734
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,240
Speaker 3: he was walking the walk.

735
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 2: Oh, he definitely was. He was big time into world

736
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 2: peace and civil rights. And he was a pantheist apparently

737
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: as well. So yeah, he was definitely the real deal

738
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 2: as far as humanists are concerned. So too was Isaac

739
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 2: Asimov and Kurt Vonnegut. Apparently they were both very much active. Yeah,

740
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 2: in the American Humanist Association.

741
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 1: No surprise.

742
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 2: Kurt Vonnegut had a great quote, if you don't mind

743
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 2: me taking.

744
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: It, Yeah, do your best Vonnagut. I want to hear this.

745
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: He said that. By the way, Kurt Vonneguet and I

746
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 2: are basically voice doubles. Okay, does he have a I've

747
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 2: never heard him talk, man. Does he have an unusual.

748
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: Or significant Well, I don't know.

749
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 3: Weirdly, the only time I think I've ever heard Kurt

750
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 3: Bontaguet talk was if I'm not mistaken, He had a

751
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 3: cameo and Broughtney Dangerfields back to school. Yeah, because he

752
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 3: hired he paid him to tutor him in college.

753
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 2: Well, how about this. You take this quote, but do

754
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 2: it as Dangerfield?

755
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no, no, it said.

756
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 2: He said, being a humanist means trying to behave decently

757
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 2: without expectation of rewards or punishment after you're dead. Yeah,

758
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 2: that's nice, it's great, great description of it.

759
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 3: What else, if you're a Star Trek fan, you even

760
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 3: if you're not, you're probably not surprised that Jeane Roddenberry

761
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 3: was a very big in the humanist movement. He I

762
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 3: means Star Trek is a is a great example of

763
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 3: just a group of people that are doing humanist things

764
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 3: that that's kind of the culture of that show.

765
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: A they're trying to solve.

766
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 3: Problems peacefully, high tech, but of course it's they're always

767
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 3: trying to do the right thing.

768
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: On Star Trek.

769
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 2: I feel like, yeah, there are a bunch of do gooders. Yeah,

770
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 2: they don't want to use their phasers. It's why they

771
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 2: always set them to stunt. So there are many critiques

772
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: to humanism. They get it from all sides, other atheists,

773
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: other philosophers, Christians obviously. Christian thinkers basically are like, dude,

774
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:31,359
Speaker 2: you can't have meaning in your life without God. Theology

775
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 2: teaches us that God is what gives your life meaning,

776
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 2: you chump, And that's essentially the most basic criticism of humanism.

777
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 2: They basically say you can't be ethical or moral or

778
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 2: have meaning or value in your life without believing that

779
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:48,280
Speaker 2: there is such a thing as God.

780
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 3: Right, you mentioned atheists, there are also atheists that say,

781
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 3: you know what, a little too much credulity going on

782
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 3: about the value of humanity and like that we can

783
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 3: all just improve ourselves. And I mean, I think there's

784
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 3: some very prominent philosophers from the twentieth century that are

785
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 3: very much anti humanist.

786
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, they call themselves anti humanists. Apparently the structuralists and

787
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 2: post structuralist movements of philosophy that came out of France

788
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: in the sixties and seventies, I think maybe even into

789
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 2: the eighties, they were very much anti humanists, and they

790
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 2: were like, the individuals don't matter other than you know,

791
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 2: we don't go make our own meaning everything we are

792
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 2: is basically created by institutions and structures that were born

793
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,919
Speaker 2: into and there's basically no way out, So stop being

794
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 2: silly and naive.

795
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting to me, not to do an episode

796
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 3: on necessarily, but I'd like to poke around the structuralism

797
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 3: a little bit more.

798
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: I'd never heard of that.

799
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 2: I have been doing that, and it is very interesting. Essentially,

800
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 2: what they're saying is like, you are so shaped by

801
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: institutions that these cool thoughts that you think you have,

802
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 2: the interactions you have with other people, all of them

803
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,919
Speaker 2: are shaped by the institutions we're born into. Argue with that, right,

804
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 2: but so much so, Chuck, that those cool thoughts, those

805
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 2: amazing things that you're saying, those interactions with people, all

806
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 2: they're doing is reinforcing those institutions because they're all within

807
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 2: that structure. So you're just teaching other people how to

808
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 2: be in that structure too by even rebelling against it

809
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: as a form of reinforcing the structure.

810
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: Wow, it's very grim.

811
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 2: Like, it's actually a very grim approach.

812
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting.

813
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 2: One other thing too that they get held up for

814
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 2: a lot is that they that they believe that man

815
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 2: is inherently moral, and that a lot of philosophers are like,

816
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: how do you prove that? What are you talking about?

817
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: Where'd you get that from? That's not a universal given,

818
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 2: Like philosophies never turned that up. And did you see

819
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 2: that thing that I found from Francisco Jay Eliah? He

820
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: basically said, so, basically, this guy kind of proves that

821
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 2: humans are actually biologically moral, resulting from a consequence of

822
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 2: natural selection. Francisco j. Eliah says that one, we have

823
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 2: the ability to anticipate consequences of our own actions. Two

824
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 2: we have the ability to make value judgments, and three

825
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,439
Speaker 2: we have the ability to choose between alternative courses of action.

826
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 2: And so because of our abilities, our natural abilities to

827
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 2: do that, we are naturally moral creatures. Which is the

828
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 2: only support I've seen for that idea that people are

829
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 2: inherently moral. I've only ever seen attack. This guy did

830
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 2: a pretty good job of making a case that supports that.

831
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, isn't the idea that humans are inherently

832
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 3: evil much more common?

833
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: Like, wasn't that what Hobbes was all about?

834
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: That's what Hobbes was about Satanists, Yeah, basically, or I

835
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: think they're like, it's not good or evil, and I

836
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 2: think Satanists are really they don't like humanists very much either. Yeah,

837
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 2: there's a Yeah, there's a lot of it's definitely not

838
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: settled whether humans are inherently good or bad.

839
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:15,760
Speaker 1: So we haven't figured that one out.

840
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 2: I guess, not meaning toward the bad lately though.

841
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you.

842
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 3: I mentioned environmentalists and animal rights activists earlier that sometimes

843
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 3: there's they believe there's just a little too much human

844
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 3: and humanism, But there are certainly a lot of people

845
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 3: and humanists that have kind of worked on the environment

846
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 3: and animals and the value of all that stuff into

847
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 3: the cause for sure.

848
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 2: Very very Jeremy bentha mask Yeah. Yeah, although if you

849
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 2: want to get down to it, I've seen an example

850
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: given where a genuine humanist if if somebody killing a

851
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 2: deer kept a human family alive, they would be like,

852
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 2: killed that deer. Dear interesting, that deer is secondary, It's

853
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 2: life is secondary to human life. Humanists might be like,

854
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: no way, man, go eat go eat a plant, go

855
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 2: eat some lichen.

856
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

857
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 3: I've never been a hunter, but if the zombie apocalypse happened,

858
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 3: like I could, I could do it.

859
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 2: You could eat zombie. I think it's if they bite

860
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 2: you that you become a zombie. I've never seen any

861
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 2: problems with somebody eating them.

862
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 3: Well, that's true, you definitely need a healthy spice rack though.

863
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like that rotted shark they eat in Iceland.

864
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh god, Yeah.

865
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: That's essentially like eating zombie. From what I understand, okay,

866
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 2: tastes like zombie. You got anything else?

867
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 3: No?

868
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 1: I uh, you were right. I didn't.

869
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 3: I didn't think I was gonna be able to get

870
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 3: through this because it's very petty stuff for me. But

871
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 3: you said, settle down, jerk, you'll be fine.

872
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, you did great. When when't like a philosophy class

873
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 2: one of your favorite classes in college too.

874
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and every time we do anything philosophy related, I

875
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 3: get all scared and it always works out.

876
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he did great, man, you always do great.

877
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, so do you?

878
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 2: Thanks well, check and I agree we both did great.

879
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 2: Patting ourselves on the back. He let me pet you

880
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 2: on the back, dude, Oh thank you. That means, of

881
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 2: course it's time for listener mail.

882
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 1: All right, this is going to be short and sweet.

883
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: It is.

884
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 3: I think I jokingly asked for a haiku as it

885
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 3: relates to mcguffins, because many years ago we put out

886
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 3: the call for haikus and got hundreds and hundreds of them,

887
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 3: to the point where I think we just quit reading them,

888
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 3: so and hopes people quit sending them, and time marched on,

889
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 3: and they did. But David centnasen a haiku about the

890
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 3: mcguffin amt coukay man, you ready. The mcguffin lives, critics argue,

891
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 3: and gnash teeth. The ending still comes wow, and David

892
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:55,959
Speaker 3: goes on to say, this great show, guys, y'all create

893
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 3: an entire universe of stuff, insider stories and jokes. I

894
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 3: hate it when I can't recall one of the callback

895
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 3: tangents and you just want to say, lastly.

896
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: The Jackhammer episode. Wasn't that terrible? Guys? It was needed

897
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 1: in the world.

898
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 2: Can you read the high cup again? It's still sinking

899
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 2: in like the genius of what David did.

900
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty good. The mcguffin lives, critics argue, and

901
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 3: nash teeth. The ending still comes, man, pretty good.

902
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 2: That's a T shirt if I've ever heard one. Aaron Cooper, that's.

903
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:26,959
Speaker 1: A high quality coup.

904
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 3: Buddy.

905
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 2: If you want to be like David and well, I'll

906
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 2: not send us a high coup, but just write in

907
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 2: about something we would be happy to hear from you.

908
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,280
Speaker 2: You can send it off to Stuff Podcasts. I Heart

909
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 2: Radio Huh.

910
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

911
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

912
00:49:53,080 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,