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Speaker 1: Hello, welcome to the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast. We

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Speaker 1: explore some of the big money issues in the world

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Speaker 1: of sports on Michael Vaught and Don Damien sass Hour.

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Speaker 1: And this is a story and I remember this very

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Speaker 1: well when it happened. Uh. It just a quick setup. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It came during the was the third overall pick in

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Speaker 1: the draft and at the time for the NBA. Uh,

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Speaker 1: he went by Chris Jackson. Uh he changed his name

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Speaker 1: to my Wood abdul Row, and uh he was obviously

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Speaker 1: very good. Uh and uh then uh in he declined

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Speaker 1: to stand for the national anthem. And just after that

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Speaker 1: is when everything his career went in rapid decline. And

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Speaker 1: this was way before the Colin Kaepernick uh issue involved.

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Speaker 1: So first of all, I'd like to welcome Mode abdul

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Speaker 1: Row to the Bloomberg Business of Sports. You were so

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Speaker 1: kind to join us. You are here because well for

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Speaker 1: many reasons. Uh, a chance to tell your story, and

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Speaker 1: you have a new book out on it. Can you

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Speaker 1: tell us about it? Yes, sir, thank you for having me. Um.

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Speaker 1: I have a new book out called In the Blink

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Speaker 1: of Any through Kaepernick Publishing, written along with Full of

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Speaker 1: Surprise winner winning write a Nick Giles, UM, when we

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Speaker 1: explore a lot a lot of my life from you know,

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Speaker 1: growing up in Mississippi and the challenges with that, almost

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Speaker 1: missing the opportunity to even go to a prestigious basketball

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Speaker 1: camp to play against Michael Jordan because of some of

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Speaker 1: the the unfair rules in the state of Mississippi, UH syndrome,

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Speaker 1: the social political to have skill with the flag, you know,

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Speaker 1: so on and so forth. So thank you for explaining

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Speaker 1: the backstory there. So I'm curious if you could put

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Speaker 1: yourself in two and tell us what you think about

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Speaker 1: where the NBA is today, UM, in terms of letting

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Speaker 1: players express their political views versus when you played. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting. I'm glad you at that question. UM. I

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Speaker 1: definitely think social social media has changed the uh, the

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Speaker 1: narrative in so many ways. We didn't have that when

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Speaker 1: we were we were playing. UM. But when when it's

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Speaker 1: concerning the NBA and how they are, and I've said

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Speaker 1: this all along, I think they're just a little bit

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Speaker 1: more sophisticated and how they deal with it if you

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Speaker 1: compare them with the NFL, UM because of times, because

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Speaker 1: the fact that times changed with social media. UM, at

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Speaker 1: that time, people could the media could control the narrative

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Speaker 1: more than they do now. People can get on social media.

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Speaker 1: For example, there was a Muslim football player after a

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Speaker 1: law that went into the end zone and and he

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Speaker 1: prostrated and the NFL wanted to find him and suspend him,

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Speaker 1: and immediately people got on social media sit what about

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Speaker 1: t bow? And then they pulled back, you know, and

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Speaker 1: so of whoold have had that then it would have

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Speaker 1: been a little different. Um. I think about this case

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Speaker 1: with in in China, right, there's a whole section of

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Speaker 1: people the Eagles, right, who genocide is being committed against them,

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Speaker 1: and I think what's his name Westbrook and uh, the

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Speaker 1: one that played James Harden Uh ended up wing to

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Speaker 1: make a comment and they were they were prevented from

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Speaker 1: making that comment because you know, NBA has big business

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Speaker 1: in China. So it's it's it's only to a certain degree.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's coming out of a place necessarily

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Speaker 1: of you know, places about truism like oh, we just

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Speaker 1: really care. Um, that's just my humble opinion. My Moody,

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Speaker 1: you're near and dear to my heart. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: the plan of the weakers. I cover emerging markets here

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Speaker 1: for Bloomberg in addition to having the pleasure to interview you.

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Speaker 1: You know, what I need you to do is take

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Speaker 1: me back to that point in time. You know what

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Speaker 1: was going on in the locker room with your teammates,

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Speaker 1: Bernie Bickerstaff, you know obviously you know told you to

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Speaker 1: get lost. You know, I mean, like like unbelievable. You know,

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Speaker 1: I read that, you know, I must confess I didn't

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Speaker 1: read the full book yet, but I read through the

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Speaker 1: first three chapters and it's just amazing. You know, the

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Speaker 1: the the lack of support, you know that that, And

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering has that changed, you know, relative to today.

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Speaker 1: You know, you've got Twitter, You've got social media. You know,

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Speaker 1: you've got Kyrie Irving all this stuff, Kanye all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: But you know, you also have seen them getting support

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Speaker 1: and pockets of support from places. And I'm curious, where

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Speaker 1: did your support come from, if any uh? Well, um,

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Speaker 1: in the NBA, there wasn't a whole lot of support,

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Speaker 1: um uh. And it all started, I mean the relationship

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Speaker 1: that I had with the players. And these are conversations

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Speaker 1: that we have all the time, you know, on the bus,

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Speaker 1: on the plane, and so when Todd eaton came to me,

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Speaker 1: the assistant GM, and he said, well, there's a reporter

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Speaker 1: that's been taking notice of the fact that you have

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Speaker 1: an understanding when you want to talk. I said, well,

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Speaker 1: of course, no problem. And after that, that's when it

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Speaker 1: blew up. You know, there was a host of john

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Speaker 1: List that came to the next shoot around we're playing

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Speaker 1: Shock and they asked me the question that eventually went viral,

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Speaker 1: and that's when I got came to the gym the

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Speaker 1: next I mean that later on that evening getting ready

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Speaker 1: for the game, Jim Gillen tells me, Lennie wants to

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Speaker 1: see you. So I go down there and they had

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Speaker 1: looks on their faces like they already knew it was

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Speaker 1: And so when I walked into office, he said listen. Uh,

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Speaker 1: then they wants to talk to you. But that's only

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Speaker 1: if you still refused to stay, you know, because the

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Speaker 1: threatening to find you and or suspend you. So what

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Speaker 1: do you say? I said, well, I'm not going to stand.

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Speaker 1: And that's when they got on the phone and talk

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Speaker 1: to me and they gave me their their reasoning why

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Speaker 1: I should and I rejected it. I said, well that

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Speaker 1: doesn't apply to me. Do what you have to do,

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Speaker 1: and I was so green. I had never been suspended

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Speaker 1: in my life. I thought that there had to be

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Speaker 1: an active legislation, you know, that they had to go

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Speaker 1: through a process. And I'm like, well, can I go

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Speaker 1: get my uniform on and go play? He said no,

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Speaker 1: you I said, right, I'm I'm suspended. He said yes,

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Speaker 1: well can I go and watch the game to support

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Speaker 1: the things? He said no, they want you off the premises.

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Speaker 1: They don't even want you. I said, okay, no problem.

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Speaker 1: So I left, and um that's and even now, UM,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not associated with them here. I'm associated

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Speaker 1: with certain players, you know, I trained certain players here

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Speaker 1: and there. But even going through all of this social

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Speaker 1: political you know what I called pop string or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and having allowing players to speak, uh, I feel that

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Speaker 1: if they were really you know, into what they were saying,

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Speaker 1: like even with Craig dres right, why don't you reach

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Speaker 1: back in history to those press not me. I don't.

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Speaker 1: I'm not looking for anything from them, but you know,

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Speaker 1: even a person like Pressure, I just why don't you

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Speaker 1: look back and say, look, let's grab these individuals who

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Speaker 1: we feel there's been wrong. If you feel they've been

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Speaker 1: wrong and have them a part of this conversation, and

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Speaker 1: as far as I know, that is yet to happen,

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Speaker 1: and so I don't, I don't. I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: really I think it's for public consumption most over than

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Speaker 1: Have you had a chance to talk with Colin Kaepernick?

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Speaker 1: Because your book, by the way, it's in the Blink

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Speaker 1: of an Eye and autobiography, it's published Kaepernick Publishing. Have

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Speaker 1: you had a chance to talk with Colin Kaepernick? Yes,

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Speaker 1: we met when he was going through, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: the situation when he took this position years ago. We

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Speaker 1: have a neutual friend and I came to the Bay

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Speaker 1: Area and it was in a private office, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we were there for about an hour, and uh, we

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Speaker 1: didn't necessarily approach each other from the position of I'm

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Speaker 1: giving you advice, which that's that's that's the way I

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Speaker 1: go about it, because oftentimes with athletes, in particular black athletes,

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Speaker 1: there's this notion that, well, somebody told him he he

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Speaker 1: doesn't have a mind of his own, he can't think

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Speaker 1: for himself. And so we just had dialogue, and I

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Speaker 1: remember one thing he said that resonated with me because

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Speaker 1: that's the way I feel now and the way I

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Speaker 1: felt then, which caused me steve to do what I do.

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Speaker 1: He said, this is the most free that I've ever

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Speaker 1: felt in my life. And and that's why, that's why

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Speaker 1: you're able to take positions that you take. And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: we met and and which led us to this point

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Speaker 1: of doing business together on this project as well, which

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Speaker 1: I thought was a great marriage to have because we

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Speaker 1: have so many parallels to our story. I'm wondering if

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Speaker 1: you've heard from anyone in the n B A UM,

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Speaker 1: any players, any administrative folks about your story in the

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Speaker 1: blink of an eye. Um, do you have a relationship

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Speaker 1: with the NBA, whether formal or informal. Uh No, ma'am.

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Speaker 1: I don't have a relationship with the NBA. I just

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Speaker 1: have a relationship with certain players. Uh. No. One has

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Speaker 1: contracted me concerning the book. Uh and what they think

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Speaker 1: about it? How they I don't I don't expect them to.

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Speaker 1: We haven't communicated since I did what I did. I mean,

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Speaker 1: even in the league when all of this was going on,

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Speaker 1: there was this talk in the media, Oh, he's going

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Speaker 1: to New York to be David Stern. I never talked

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Speaker 1: to David Stern in my life. We never had a

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Speaker 1: conversation about medv New York City, like where is this

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Speaker 1: stuff coming from? You know? Uh? And even when I

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Speaker 1: went back to Vancouver, I snuck back into the league. Um,

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Speaker 1: he didn't even didn't seem like he even knew I

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Speaker 1: was in the league because he came to visit the

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Speaker 1: locker room and he was shaking hands and players and

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Speaker 1: when he stumbled up on me, he kind of froze,

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Speaker 1: and the players are watching, and I can't remember what

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Speaker 1: he said to me, but it was something slick and

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Speaker 1: I also responded something slicked back, and he, because it

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Speaker 1: was in the public key, he felt he had to

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Speaker 1: extend his hand slightly and I slightly extended mine and

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Speaker 1: we kind of shook each other's index finger, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and then and then so be it. I mean, Scarlett,

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Speaker 1: come on that the NBA is not gonna be nice

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Speaker 1: to mom. And here he's a co captain of a

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Speaker 1: team and Ice keeps Big three league we had. They

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Speaker 1: don't like the Big right, But you never know kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, um back channeling there might be. So

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Speaker 1: you know, now I'm gonna take me back because I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: you are involved obviously in the Big three League. I

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Speaker 1: mean you were the third overall pick back in I

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Speaker 1: mean you let the NBA and free throw percentage of

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Speaker 1: number years. I mean you were a hooper man. You

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Speaker 1: played with Shack before he was even drafted by you

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Speaker 1: know you're at that was you, So, you know, talk

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Speaker 1: to us about how you mentioned you had toret syndrom

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Speaker 1: at a very young age, right, how did how did

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Speaker 1: that prepare you for your career in the NBA for

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Speaker 1: dealing with the type of adversity. Talk to us about that,

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Speaker 1: oh mon and having to reret syndrome from the moment

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Speaker 1: you wake up until you're actually out code. It's like

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Speaker 1: living on a battlefield. You constantly your your mind and

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Speaker 1: your body on two different wavements, and you're trying to

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Speaker 1: navigate through it and create a balance. And it's also

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Speaker 1: pushing you beyond what you're gonna push yourself. You know

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Speaker 1: what I mean, I wouldn't be the person I am today.

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Speaker 1: I mean I grew up in a uh you know,

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Speaker 1: in terms of teaching us the values of being respectful

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Speaker 1: and courteous and all of that, Yes, but uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: because it's something that's so overt and it's in your face.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't afford the luxury of being arrogant because let's

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Speaker 1: be easy target, right, you know, so it kind of

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Speaker 1: calms you down in that way as well as just

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Speaker 1: playing basketball itself. You know that when I wanted to

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Speaker 1: quit after working well, stopped playing rather after an hour

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Speaker 1: and a half, I felt like I have enough. It's

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Speaker 1: like Tourette syndrome is another person. It's like, no, you're

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Speaker 1: not finished until you play me. And if you don't

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Speaker 1: play me, I'm gonna make your life miserable all day long.

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Speaker 1: And literally, if you stop your ticks with it with

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Speaker 1: increase and it would become more violent and intense. And

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Speaker 1: so you had to finish it. And even though every

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Speaker 1: day was near death. And I'm not exaggerating, I mean

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Speaker 1: I get choked up interio every time I think about it,

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Speaker 1: like I could have died every day. And so it's

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Speaker 1: put seeing you beyond what you yourself could wouldn't go

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Speaker 1: without it. And and so what happens with anything there carryovers.

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Speaker 1: And so when you start becoming attached to something else,

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Speaker 1: whether it's a social political issue with something you dislike

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Speaker 1: and you won't change, it's like man, hold on, you're

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Speaker 1: growing up every day, that one moment, would you wake

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Speaker 1: up with a fighting spirit? You know, you gotta fight yourself.

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Speaker 1: And so this is how it's constantly preparing me. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't allow me the luxury of being comfortable and satisfied

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Speaker 1: and letting things go, you know, And it's a blessing

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Speaker 1: and a curse. Do you think that the NBA is

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Speaker 1: more progressive today? Maybe more progressive than the NFL. I

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Speaker 1: think that. I just think they're more sophisticated and they're crafty. Um.

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Speaker 1: I can't give them that that that that that label yet, Uh,

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Speaker 1: I really can't. Um. That's a great question though, But

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Speaker 1: I'm struggling with with that one. That's why I'm always saying,

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Speaker 1: I just think that they're a little bit more sophisticated

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Speaker 1: and how they go about it, they're savvier. There you go,

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Speaker 1: that's the word. I'm gonna start using that one. That's

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Speaker 1: that's the one. Having said that, though, I want to

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Speaker 1: go back to Michael Barr's question, because the NBA is

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Speaker 1: at least seen as more progressive than the NFL perhaps

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Speaker 1: or MLB or NHL, especially when George Floyd and the

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Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter gained momentum, that that whole movement um

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Speaker 1: to that extent, is it a a more welcoming place

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Speaker 1: for players to speak their minds, especially when it comes

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Speaker 1: to things like political views. Well, if if you if

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Speaker 1: you're using that example and you say is it more

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Speaker 1: welcoming and that yes, I would say on the surface

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Speaker 1: of it, yes, uh uh compared to the NFL. But

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Speaker 1: I think about this. This a statement that I think

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Speaker 1: his name is is a political scientists, Richard Itting. He

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Speaker 1: said something down the lines of, you know, he he

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Speaker 1: cautions against viewing protests as inherently revolutionary because once it

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Speaker 1: becomes routine, right and normal, it's it's easily molded and

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Speaker 1: shaped into the geminant understanding of them. So what I

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Speaker 1: get out of that me personally is that like the NBA,

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Speaker 1: they allowed their quote unquote allowed their players to come out.

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Speaker 1: But I can't breathe shirts on. They allowed their players.

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Speaker 1: You don't get on certain platforms too, you know, to speak.

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Speaker 1: But yet when I think about again to James Harden

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Speaker 1: and the west Brook you know situation, when I think

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Speaker 1: about even having these programs, and you don't reach back

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Speaker 1: to like a crack Hodges, you know, Craig Hodges had

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Speaker 1: mean he has championships. He did something at the White

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Speaker 1: House which he should have been able to do, Like, look,

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Speaker 1: he gave recommendations to the staffers and capacity to the president.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you're a citizen in his country, you

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Speaker 1: pay taxes. You know, they shouldn't be above receiving information

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Speaker 1: from their citizens, like recommendations of how to improve some

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Speaker 1: And so they felt that that was offensive. The way

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Speaker 1: he came dressed and all of that, and even the

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Speaker 1: fact that he won three NBAU not championships, but he

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Speaker 1: won the three point contest three times in a row.

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Speaker 1: I said that they should have him at the court

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Speaker 1: court every All Star game and sitting on the throne

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Speaker 1: and to somebody breaking nobody's ever done that, you know.

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Speaker 1: But they don't call him, they don't reach out to

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Speaker 1: people like that. Uh. And so because of that, this

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Speaker 1: is why I say that savvy, you know. But but

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Speaker 1: definitely when the when you look at it on the

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Speaker 1: surface level, Oh yes, of course, they seem progressive. The

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Speaker 1: players are outspoken more. Uh, they don't have to hang

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Speaker 1: ups to the NFL all and maybe some other places. Memory.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if you could expand on that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: do you feel that today's player um. Are they becoming

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Speaker 1: more vocal about their about their beliefs because it benef

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Speaker 1: it's their brands, because they truly believe in what you know,

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Speaker 1: they're fighting for. I mean, do you see any differences there?

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Speaker 1: Do you see you know, an evolution in terms of

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Speaker 1: you know, the individual player, you know, actually generally giving

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Speaker 1: back you know, to those causes that they believe in most.

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Speaker 1: Is that real or is that more you know, more savvyness.

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Speaker 1: I guess, to steal Scarlett's word, well, I think you

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Speaker 1: always have both. I mean, of course we can't reach

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Speaker 1: into their souls and hearts to always know if they're sincere,

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Speaker 1: you know you. I think in some cases in time

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Speaker 1: you'll know, Like if you see a person benefiting, you know,

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Speaker 1: more off the business side and they become less vocal

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Speaker 1: that sometimes that could be like okay, you've you know,

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Speaker 1: you seem to be one of those people that it

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Speaker 1: is more it's more about your brain than you've been

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Speaker 1: bought and soul because you no longer vocal um um.

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Speaker 1: So I think you always have both. I think it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's a bit of both, but definitely there, I think,

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Speaker 1: and even the reprisal part of it, you know, what

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Speaker 1: Kaepernick did wasn't so long ago. Um. And they always

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Speaker 1: the system always finds a way to to um to

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Speaker 1: get what they want to to. I can't think of

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Speaker 1: the word I want to use right now. It's a yes.

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Speaker 1: I mean you could see things right, and they they're

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Speaker 1: ahead of the game and how they deal with people.

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Speaker 1: Like even when Kaepernick did what he did, I said,

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Speaker 1: oh man, he's getting ready to get it. Like with me,

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Speaker 1: it was it was a process. You know, first, you're

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Speaker 1: not being interviewed as much, so you become almost invisible. Right,

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Speaker 1: you're not played as much. Right, your time decreases, and

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Speaker 1: it's so we don't you don't have it anymore. That

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Speaker 1: there you go. So these these type of things began

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Speaker 1: to happen and then they just you just this becomes

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Speaker 1: the excuse. Instead of saying, well, look we don't like

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Speaker 1: what you said and this is why you're not playing anymore,

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Speaker 1: it's like, well I'm not really playing anymore, and you know,

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Speaker 1: you know he doesn't have it. And so that's what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying. And I think so even the reprisal part,

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Speaker 1: it's still there. They've become very savvy and how they

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Speaker 1: deal with it. Um um yeah, that's but there's definitely

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Speaker 1: more players I was spoken than than before. But I

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Speaker 1: think a part of that is definitely social media. I

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Speaker 1: remember talking to what's his name, you know these names

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Speaker 1: are leaving Dr Harry Edwards. Uh And I never heard

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Speaker 1: this before until he said that. He said, my move

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Speaker 1: when Kaeperni, he said, with Muhammad Ali took his stand,

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Speaker 1: he said, they did it. It was framed under a movement,

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Speaker 1: the Black Power. When Kaepernick did what he did, it

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Speaker 1: was framed under the Black Lives Madam movie. They had

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Speaker 1: a movement right to back them. He said. When you

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Speaker 1: and Craig it what you did, there was no movement,

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Speaker 1: which made it harder. You would in like a c

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Speaker 1: you know, on a boat. I said, durn, I ain't

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Speaker 1: ever I said, wow, that's deep. I ain't ever think

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Speaker 1: about that. You took the question that I know we

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Speaker 1: gotta wrap this up, but boy, it's like you were

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Speaker 1: reading my mind, because like you could hit the nail

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Speaker 1: on the head. I mean, when Muhammad Ali was going

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Speaker 1: through what he did, he had the movement. Kaepernick the

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Speaker 1: same thing, and you took me back. There was no movement,

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Speaker 1: so to speak, especially in the nineties. During that time, boy,

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Speaker 1: that's that's the program. Yeah, that was talking about getting

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Speaker 1: the movement wrong right moment. I mean you basically when

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Speaker 1: you tried to get back into the league. It was

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Speaker 1: two thousand, that was right before nine eleven, right, so

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Speaker 1: then nine eleven hits. I mean, so talk about the

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Speaker 1: anti movement. Um, you know, I have to ask you

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Speaker 1: before you leave. I mean, sorry to cut, yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: just you dropped thirty two points on Michael Jordan, and

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Speaker 1: I mean, how did that feel? You know, I mean

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Speaker 1: in terms of the highlights of your life? Man, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, we have to go there. I mean, fifty

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Speaker 1: one in you time. I mean, let's take nothing away

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Speaker 1: from the jazz, but dirty. And that was the year

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Speaker 1: they weren't set me too now, you know, man, anytime

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Speaker 1: you can do something like that on a on a player,

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Speaker 1: that's as I kind of as Jordan's a wonderful thing.

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Speaker 1: But I did it in high school in uh in

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Speaker 1: a Nike Nike camp when you asked me, asked the

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Speaker 1: garden a couple of times and I scored on it

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Speaker 1: two times real quick. And and this is what we do.

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Speaker 1: It's a different position. And not to sound you know, cocky,

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Speaker 1: but It felt easy because it's a different position though.

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Speaker 1: It's it's like me guarding him on the post. After

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Speaker 1: a while his six sixth flame. Now you're out there. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm it's a different it's a different yeah. So that's

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Speaker 1: it was. But it was it was nice that they

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Speaker 1: were following. Man, that's great, and you guys would dominate

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Speaker 1: me just sweeping the floor. Man, I just the talent.

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Speaker 1: It took me back and I remember the talent. Man.

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Speaker 1: It's beautiful. Man, Thank you appreciate it. My moodive Duel Brow.

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Speaker 1: He is the author of In the Blink of an

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Speaker 1: Eye and autobiography. Uh it is out there and uh

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling that it is a very good

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Speaker 1: read about your life in general. We really do appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us on the Bloomberg Business of Sports.

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Speaker 1: This has been the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast. We

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Speaker 1: explore the big money issues in the world of sports

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Speaker 1: on Michael Barr. You can follow me on Twitter Victor

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Speaker 1: Sports and you can find me on Twitter at Scarlett

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Speaker 1: Phone Brand. You can find me on Twitter at the

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Speaker 1: Sass Hour and you can download our podcast which are

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Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Thursday. Download them wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcasts,