Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,
Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of
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Speaker 1: Very lucky this morning to be joined by the one
Speaker 1: and only Andrew yang Man, who scarcely needs an introduction,
Speaker 1: but for those who are not out of course, Yeah,
Speaker 1: former presidential gan and of course co chair of the
Speaker 1: Forward Party. Is always great to see you, Andrew.
Speaker 2: Good to see you, man.
Speaker 4: It's great to be here. Wish it was under a
Speaker 4: different circumstances. I take it we're going to be debriefing
Speaker 4: the Trump landslide.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean you're one of those people who's
Speaker 1: in a position to say, hey, I told you so,
Speaker 1: because you got behind Dean Phillips, who was out there
Speaker 1: saying listen, guys, Biden is too old, Like, doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be me, just do something other than Joe Biden.
Speaker 1: How critical do you think it was that Biden stayed
Speaker 1: in the race for as long as he did.
Speaker 4: Joe Biden essentially delivered the White House back to Donald
Speaker 4: Trump by not getting out of the way in January,
Speaker 4: and full credit to Dean for risking his career. The Dems,
Speaker 4: in true Demi fashion, decided to malign him, primary him,
Speaker 4: get him out of the picture because they were more
Speaker 4: offended that someone was actually cutting the line than making
Speaker 4: the right case for the country.
Speaker 3: He was correct.
Speaker 4: Then Joe Biden ends up dropping out less than six
Speaker 4: months later, and it was a train wreck. If they'd
Speaker 4: had a primary in January, you could have seen a
Speaker 4: very very competitive ticket emerge.
Speaker 3: Let's call it Joshapiro and Gretchen Whitmer.
Speaker 4: You then have two of the three crucial swing states
Speaker 4: probably in your column. You win Wisconsin and you win
Speaker 4: the whole thing. But we'll never know because instead it
Speaker 4: was Jojo Joe all the way. And if you can
Speaker 4: sense some emotion in my voice, we should all be
Speaker 4: tick off, particularly Dean Phillips, because Dean Phillips was right
Speaker 4: all along.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you just a little bit more about that, Andrew,
Speaker 1: because you know there's been reporting that came out after
Speaker 1: Biden had that disastrous debate that was like, yeah, donors
Speaker 1: had seen this was really not good. He had some
Speaker 1: meeting with congressional leaders like a long time ago, where
Speaker 1: he couldn't finish his sentences. Nancy Pelosi had to jump in,
Speaker 1: and then they just stopped having those meetings altogether. So
Speaker 1: this had all happened before Dean jumped in and was saying, guys,
Speaker 1: come on, I'm pulling the alarm bell, like you have
Speaker 1: to do something. So I just want to know behind
Speaker 1: the scenes, like what was going on. Were they in
Speaker 1: denial they just thought that they could cover it up.
Speaker 1: What was the thought process behind the scenes, to the
Speaker 1: best of your knowledge?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it was kind of knowledge.
Speaker 4: And there were people saying to Dean, I agree with you,
Speaker 4: I'm glad you're doing this.
Speaker 3: But then they would be mum in public.
Speaker 4: And the truth is that the rank and file DEM
Speaker 4: office holder cared more about their place in the totem
Speaker 4: pole and whether the party was on track to win
Speaker 4: in November. That's the disease of this current system is
Speaker 4: that look, you know, I've got my career progression, I've
Speaker 4: got my entire jam. What happens to the country, what
Speaker 4: happens to the people, families, communities a distant secondary or
Speaker 4: tertiary consideration that.
Speaker 1: Is absolutely devastating.
Speaker 2: That is really Andrew, I wanted to talk to you
Speaker 2: more about this loss and kind of where things go
Speaker 2: from here. What is your like, what is your theory
Speaker 2: of some of the different ways that the Democrats got
Speaker 2: it wrong?
Speaker 4: You know, I was joking that instead of calling themselves
Speaker 4: the Democrats, they should start calling themselves the Selectors, because
Speaker 4: if you'd actually had a real competitive primary, you're not
Speaker 4: in this mess. They still even had a chance to
Speaker 4: have a hurried primary.
Speaker 3: When Joe dropped out in July, and instead it was
Speaker 3: just the elevation of Kamala.
Speaker 4: I made a list of recommendations with the Democratic Party
Speaker 4: in Politico a few days ago that I say.
Speaker 3: In the p they will totally ignore these.
Speaker 4: One of them is to make Dean Phillips the chair
Speaker 4: of the DNC as the only person who had the
Speaker 4: integrity to stake his career on what was right for
Speaker 4: the country. Another is apologize to Bernie Sanders for sandbagging
Speaker 4: him in twenty sixteen. In my opinion, if Bernie's the nominee,
Speaker 4: then Trump never becomes president in twenty sixteen. So there
Speaker 4: are a bunch of things that you'd hope that they
Speaker 4: would take from this, but you don't actually have any
Speaker 4: optimism that they will because the dynamic I described before
Speaker 4: is that there are now various people jocking to be
Speaker 4: the party's nominee in twenty eight and again it's about
Speaker 4: them and their place and the party and not necessarily
Speaker 4: preventing this loss, you know, I mean, it was a
Speaker 4: landslide loss that, as my friend Dean Phillips said, was
Speaker 4: both predictable and preventable.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think there's a few things I want
Speaker 1: to pick up on there from your comments. I want
Speaker 1: to come back to your assessment that Bernie would have
Speaker 1: won in twenty sixteen, because you and Bernie don't have
Speaker 1: exactly the same ideologies. I'm curious about your analysis there,
Speaker 1: which of course I agree with, but I want to
Speaker 1: hear your perspective on that. But the one thing I
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you about first is, you know, it's
Speaker 1: also a real indictment of Gretchen Whitmer, Gavin Newsom, these
Speaker 1: people who you know, could have jumped into a Democratic
Speaker 1: primary and really forced the issue. And yeah, they would
Speaker 1: have been It would have been tough and people would
Speaker 1: have been mad at them whatever. But if you've got
Speaker 1: the governor of California, the governor of Michigan, some actual
Speaker 1: heavy hitters in the Democratic primary, it makes it much
Speaker 1: more difficult to just effectively cancel the primary, which is
Speaker 1: what they truly did. Obviously they had no debates and
Speaker 1: on certain states they just literally canceled the primary and
Speaker 1: blocked Marian and Dean and Jank and anyone else from
Speaker 1: getting on the ballot. So how much of an indictment
Speaker 1: do you see this? As you know, the people who
Speaker 1: are supposed to be the big star players coming up
Speaker 1: in the Democratic Party and their own career ambition and
Speaker 1: cowardice when it came down to it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not very presidential to just be like, I
Speaker 4: be able to wait until I have the blessing of
Speaker 4: the powers that be. And certainly Gavin Newsome and JB.
Speaker 4: Pritzker are well known to have had campaigns in waiting.
Speaker 4: But as someone who ran for president, guys, if you
Speaker 4: wait for the right time, there.
Speaker 3: May never be a right time.
Speaker 4: You know, the right time is the right time for
Speaker 4: the freaking country, not necessarily your professional prospects. Again, it's
Speaker 4: one reason why Dean Phillips has my eternal admiration because
Speaker 4: he clearly did.
Speaker 3: Not have his professional his political.
Speaker 4: Future advied, and his career has been ended as a result. Politically, though,
Speaker 4: you guys think that, you know, he could easily rise
Speaker 4: like a phoenix, which he could because everyone now knows
Speaker 4: that he did the right thing. But that's unusual in
Speaker 4: American politics. We have a system that rewards cowardice and
Speaker 4: conformity and careerism and will punish courage.
Speaker 3: And that's one reason we're in this mess.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Andrew. One of the things that you were
Speaker 2: originally one of the ways a lot of people heard
Speaker 2: about you is from the Joe Roe podcasts. There's been
Speaker 2: a lot of Rogan discourse around this. I know you've
Speaker 2: said that that Kamala should have gone on Joe Rogan,
Speaker 2: But what do you think that the shunning of Rogan,
Speaker 2: not even just necessarily by the party, but even by
Speaker 2: Kamala Harris herself, what does that say about the democratic
Speaker 2: loss that led to Donald Trump.
Speaker 4: No, when she didn't go on Rogan, I thought to myself,
Speaker 4: either they have a really big lead their private pole
Speaker 4: leg or this is a massive mistake, and one of
Speaker 4: the reasons why, in my view, the Democrats lost this
Speaker 4: race is that there has been this attack of people
Speaker 4: that on people that are outside of their orthodoxy, and
Speaker 4: certainly Joe Rogan has been, you know, mercilessly attacked. I've
Speaker 4: taken you know, a couple of slings and arrows, like
Speaker 4: who knows, they might even have hit you guys just
Speaker 4: for fun. Pretty much anyone who's.
Speaker 3: Like outside of the machide.
Speaker 4: And it turns out that most of us are outside
Speaker 4: of the machine. But that doesn't mean that, you know,
Speaker 4: like to me, Joe Rogan would have been completely fair
Speaker 4: and inquisitive and open minded. If Kamala and Tim Walls
Speaker 4: had come on, it would have been a massive boost
Speaker 4: for their campaign, and the fact that they didn't come
Speaker 4: on to me again speaks to the.
Speaker 3: Careerism and the risk aversion. You know.
Speaker 4: It's like you look at it and you think, objectively, Okay,
Speaker 4: we're trying to win. You should do this, but let's
Speaker 4: not make any mistakes. Don't want anyone to look bad.
Speaker 4: That's a great way to lose.
Speaker 1: Yeah, although you know, I mean to be honest with you.
Speaker 1: The more devastating point is that they may have actually
Speaker 1: made the right decision, because I'm not sure that she
Speaker 1: does hold up well over the course of a two
Speaker 1: three hour conversation. When she had her weakest moments was
Speaker 1: actually when she was being asked just to talk about herself, like, hey,
Speaker 1: who are you to your values? You know, it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I didn't study for this one, So I'm not sure
Speaker 1: they actually made you have a primary Bingo's that's the
Speaker 1: real that's the real core of the problem. But just
Speaker 1: to get back, you know, your analysis that you think
Speaker 1: Bernie would have defeated Trump in twenty sixteen, the DNC
Speaker 1: shouldn't moved habn Inner to block him from Assenti's the
Speaker 1: Democratic nomination. You know, I've my analysis of why that
Speaker 1: could be the case. Of course, we'll never know for sure,
Speaker 1: but I am curious your thought process that leads you
Speaker 1: to that analysis.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 4: One of the interesting things about having been a candidate
Speaker 4: in this context, Crystal is you know there are times
Speaker 4: when a person and a campaign meets the moment, and
Speaker 4: Bernie was the person on the moment in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 3: He just had a ton of popular energy.
Speaker 4: I donated to him, you know, like I heard him speak,
Speaker 4: and I was like, oh my gosh, like this guy's
Speaker 4: spot on, Like I can't not donate, so I, you know,
Speaker 4: donated Bernie's campaign in sixteen. He just had the will
Speaker 4: of the people behind him, and standing against him was
Speaker 4: the Clinton machine. And by the way, I mean you
Speaker 4: think about the sixteen primary, it's like, why was it
Speaker 4: just Bernie and Hillary? It was because the word went
Speaker 4: out among the Dems. If you run against Hillary, we're
Speaker 4: gonna shive you.
Speaker 3: It's a career. Ender you run against Joe, it's a
Speaker 3: career and we're gonna shive you.
Speaker 4: Like so, so Bernie was the only person again with
Speaker 4: the courage and patriotism and principle and said, hang it,
Speaker 4: you guys can't intimidate me out of this.
Speaker 3: I'm going to run any o the will of the people.
Speaker 3: And then if you'd.
Speaker 4: Had him become the Democratic nominee in my opinion. But
Speaker 4: by the way, there are a lot of folks who
Speaker 4: migrated from Bernie to Trump over the last number of years,
Speaker 4: in large part because the like the energy is like, look,
Speaker 4: you're not an establishment tool. I'm into it, you know.
Speaker 4: By the way, Like there were a bunch of Trumpers
Speaker 4: who supported me, because everyone knows you would never send
Speaker 4: the magical Asian man from the future if you were, like,
Speaker 4: you know, of the machine. You know, it's like like
Speaker 4: pretty much if you're not of the machine, like will
Speaker 4: take a look at you if you're a rank and file,
Speaker 4: working class voter in this country.
Speaker 3: And Bernie had that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember doing monologues at the time about how
Speaker 2: much crossover support that you had amongst Trump's story. I
Speaker 2: remember I didn't like forty at one point, so as
Speaker 2: somebody who actually was able to get some Trump support.
Speaker 2: And clearly that didn't work out so well for the
Speaker 2: Democrats this time at a structural level, not just with Dean,
Speaker 2: with the DNC, the consultants and all of that. What
Speaker 2: do you think should happen? They should be clean house
Speaker 2: and we should elect new leaders. Is it a primary
Speaker 2: process or is it even deeper? You've talked about third parties.
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's deeper.
Speaker 4: And if you look at the numbers, as the math guy,
Speaker 4: the Democrats will probably not have any chance to be
Speaker 4: competitive in the US Senate in terms of holding the
Speaker 4: majority for the foreseeable future. Just there are more red
Speaker 4: states than blue states. You look at each map, it's
Speaker 4: top So if you're someone who wants any kind of
Speaker 4: real competition and dynamism and for our country to be
Speaker 4: able to solve some of these problems, you're going to
Speaker 4: need a different approach to politics. You had someone like
Speaker 4: Dan Osborne, who I hope you guys had on born,
Speaker 4: put deep red Nebraska.
Speaker 3: In play and ran fourteen points ahead of Kamala in
Speaker 3: the state. You know.
Speaker 4: Evan mcmallan did something similar in Utah. The fact is
Speaker 4: there are many many races around the country where people
Speaker 4: will not vote for either the Democrat or the Republican
Speaker 4: and so you need a different approach. And that's what
Speaker 4: the Forward Party is making happen by backing independence and
Speaker 4: reform minded people in each party.
Speaker 3: But this blue red.
Speaker 4: Thing ends in acrimony, tears, problems not being solved, et cetera.
Speaker 3: And that's the mass. Well.
Speaker 1: I love the idea of you getting behind future like
Speaker 1: Dan Osbourne style candidates, because even though he came up
Speaker 1: a little short, I mean to put Nebraska in h
Speaker 1: the way.
Speaker 2: He forced McConnell to spend millions, that's right.
Speaker 1: He actually may have ended up saving Jackie Rosen, for example,
Speaker 1: because they forced Republicans to have to take that race
Speaker 1: seriously and come in with a bunch of cash, et cetera.
Speaker 1: So I think that's a really exciting and interesting model
Speaker 1: for the future. Andrew, just tell people you know where
Speaker 1: they can follow your work in your analysis.
Speaker 4: Sure if you just go to Andrew Beang on most
Speaker 4: social media platforms, so we can go to Forward party
Speaker 4: dot com and see what we're doing. We had twenty
Speaker 4: five office holders when we are the biggest third party
Speaker 4: in the country by resources, which I wish was saying
Speaker 4: more than it actually is.
Speaker 3: But hey, you know we passed the Greens, the Libertaria.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we actually do have some really estimable people
Speaker 4: coming our way because everyone's fed up, like this system's not.
Speaker 3: Going to work. You need a viable third party. We're
Speaker 3: building it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, another big disappointment for me on election day
Speaker 1: was a bunch of the rank choice voting ballot initiatives failed,
Speaker 1: which I think is really unfortunate because I do think
Speaker 1: that's a key way to help to build strength outside
Speaker 1: of the two party system. But we'll have you back
Speaker 1: to talk about all of that and the path forward
Speaker 1: there as well. Andrew. Always great to see you.
Speaker 3: Good to see you man, Thanks guys, great being here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, our pleasure.