1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to stot to Blow Your Mind, the production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: My name is Robert lenn and I'm Joe McCormick. And boy, 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: we've got a couple of episodes this week that I 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: am really excited about. Yeah, that's right. We're you know, 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: we're celebrating the Chinese New Year, the coming of the 7 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: Metal Locks, and so you know, on on this show 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: we enjoy some explorations of celebrations and explorations of mythology, 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: legend in folklore. We love a good monster, and around 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: this time of year, we especially like to explore topics 11 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: related to the Chinese cultures. So in this episode, we're 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: going to open up an ancient Chinese text known is 13 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: the shan Hai Jing, the Classic of Mountains and seas As. 14 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: It sometimes translated um. Other times it's translated as guideways 15 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: through mountains or seas. I've also seen it called the 16 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: Cannon of the Mountains and see ease. Yeah, and so 17 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: it's you know, different different translators. Translations are going to 18 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 1: be uh something we're going to touch on a lot 19 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: in this episode. But basically the plan is we're going 20 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: to talk about what this book is, with a few 21 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: examples from it in this episode, and then the next 22 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: episode will mostly just be strange creatures and monsters. It's 23 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: gonna be so much fun. Okay. So the Shanhaijing could 24 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: be thought of in a in a few different ways. 25 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: I mean, we can get more into this as we 26 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: go on, but in in some ways, it is a 27 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: text that is difficult to categorize, though some people have 28 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: sort of uh, some people have characterized it as an 29 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: ancient travel guide of sorts. It's like, you know, you 30 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: go buy that book in the gas station that tells 31 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: you about all the cool stuff in Delaware. This is 32 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: like that, but it's like all the cool regions and 33 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: monsters surrounding the ancient civilized regions of China. So you 34 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: could also look at it as a work of mythic geography, 35 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: a kind of magical geographical encyclopedia that says, hey, here 36 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: are the parts of the world, and here are all 37 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: the different kinds of flora and fauna and monsters and 38 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: gods and magical entities you will find in these parts 39 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: of the world. But one of the major focuses of 40 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: this book is something that you know, you know, us. 41 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: You know what kinds of things draw our attention. Uh, 42 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: it's going to be the guy Wou, which this author 43 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: named Richard Strasburg translates as strange creatures. Now we're gonna 44 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: be referring to a couple of books throughout these episodes. 45 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: So I guess the first one, just since I'm already 46 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: mentioning his name. Uh. This is a book called a 47 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: Chinese best Jerry Strange Creatures from the Guide Ways through 48 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: Mountains and Seas. And this is a translation and notes 49 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: by Richard Strasburg, who is a professor of of Chinese. 50 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: I think at U C. L A. So to give 51 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: some context for what these strange creatures the guai Wu 52 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: represented to ancient Chinese readers of this text, I wanted 53 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: to start with an example that that Strasburg also uses 54 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: right at the top of his introduction. Uh. So this 55 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: is a story from an ancient Chinese text known as 56 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: the Guanzi. Also that translates usually to Master Guan which 57 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: is a sort of compendium of tales and knowledge for 58 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: political leaders. It's it's state craft. It was composed and 59 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 1: collected probably between the fifth and the first century b C. 60 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: But it is attributed to this guy who lived farther 61 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: back in the seventh century b C. S traditionally said 62 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: to have been his sort of thoughts and writings, and 63 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: that is the titular master Guan or guang zong uh. 64 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: So back in the seventh century b C. There was 65 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: a ruler in the eastern Chinese state of Qi known 66 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: as Chi Huangong or do Quan of Chi, who lives 67 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: six eight five to six forty three, and the story 68 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: goes like this. One day, the Duke was out riding 69 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: past the safety of the city walls, and he's accompanied 70 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: by his prime minister or chancellor guan Jong, who again 71 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: this is traditionally said to be the author of this text. Now, 72 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: of course, when you venture out past the city walls, 73 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: there they are all these dangers that lie in wait. 74 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: You know, the untamed wilderness is out there. It sort 75 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: of represents chaos in some form, and it could reach 76 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: out and claim you. So, while Duke Juan and guan 77 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: Jong are riding along, they suddenly spot a tiger lying 78 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: in wait. It's sitting there ready to ambush, and the 79 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: predator locks onto the duke and his horse. And there's 80 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: every sign that the tiger is about to attack him, 81 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: but then at the last minute, the tiger seems to 82 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: think better of it, and then does not spring from 83 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: its ambush, and instead it refrains. It SLINKs away, and 84 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 1: the duke is perplexed what made the tiger shy away 85 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: from him? And guan Jong has an answer to this. 86 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: He says it must be because the Duke's horse bears 87 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: a strong resemblance to a strange creature known as the bow. Now, 88 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 1: a bow is in some ways like a western unicorn. 89 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: If you've ever in it in illustration, you might have 90 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: just mistaken it for that Western unicorn tradition. It is 91 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: a horse that has a horn on its head, but 92 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 1: it is more than that. And just to give you 93 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: a flavor of the raw text itself of the of 94 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: the shan Haijing, I want to quote from Strasbourg's translation 95 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: of the entry in this text about the bow. So 96 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: it goes like this. Three hundred lee farther west stands 97 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: Mount Winding Center. There is much jade on its southern slope, 98 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: and much realgar white jade and metal on its northern slope. 99 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: There is a beast dwelling here whose form resembles a horse, 100 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: but with a white body, black tail, a single horn, 101 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: and tiger's teeth and claws. It makes a sound like 102 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: a drum and is called the bow. The bow devours 103 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: tigers and leopards. It can also protect against weapons. There 104 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: is a tree growing here that resembles a wild plum, 105 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: but with round leaves and red fruit that is as 106 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: large as a papaya. It is called the Hawaii tree, 107 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: and eating of it will increase one's strength. And then 108 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: after this, after telling the story about Duke Kuan, Strasburg 109 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: says that this story kind of illustrates the importance of 110 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: understanding of strange creatures for powerful and learned people in 111 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: ancient China. And so, to quote from his introduction here, 112 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: Strasburg writes, Duke Huan, who has become legendary as the 113 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: first of the five great hegemons of the Joe dynasty, 114 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: is shown displaying his control over the wild periphery. The 115 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 1: tiger not only represents a threat demand still feared in 116 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: many areas of China at that time, but symbolically other 117 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: nobles who occasionally challenged the Duke's rule. The Duke's pre 118 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: eminence among men is matched by his horse's resemblance. To 119 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: one of the more fearsome strange creatures, and the Duke's 120 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 1: supremacy appears only momentarily threatened before he is cleverly reassured 121 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: by his prime minister. The original old readers of this 122 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: anecdote were mostly members of the literate elite with political 123 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: ambitions as officials or advisors in the courts of the 124 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: feudal states. They understood guan Jong's timely reply as an 125 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: example of his legendary success as an official, and read 126 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: the story as a recommendation that they too equip themselves 127 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: with such useful knowledge of the strange. And so this 128 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: is so interesting. I I love what is the kind 129 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: of picture of the culture that's inculcated by by this anecdote, 130 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: The idea that if you want to be a learned person, 131 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: a good advisor who has who can sort of adapt 132 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: to any situation, you don't just need to know how 133 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: politics works. You don't just need to know astronomy. You 134 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: don't just need to know the ways of divination and 135 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: and and the will of the gods and all that. 136 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: You also need to understand monsters. You need to understand 137 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: the strange beasts. You must have the best jerry within 138 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: your own mind. Yeah, this is this is really interesting 139 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: way to think about it. Right, the world is full 140 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: of these strange creatures, but there's there's there's an advantage 141 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: in in knowing about them and understanding their properties because 142 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: they are ultimately part of the world as well, because 143 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: in the various ways of looking at it and the 144 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: creatures that pop up in this book there they're not 145 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: They're not considered outsiders. They are part of the world, 146 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: and if you want to know the world, you need 147 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: to know it's denizens. Yeah, sometimes I get the impression 148 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: when reading about this that that it means something different 149 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: to be a strange creature in this ancient Chinese understanding 150 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: of the world, then it would mean to be like 151 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: a supernatural creature. Does that make sense? Yes? But then 152 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 1: but then a lot of the strange creatures, some of 153 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: the strange creatures are definitely supernatural, and their gods, even 154 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: or demi gods have have some sort of relationship with God's. 155 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: Others are just strange creatures like uh, well, like one 156 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: example that comes up if I can briefly just read 157 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: a quick passage from this translation by Anne Barrel that 158 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 1: I'll be referring to h again and again here, uh, 159 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: the text says, and this is again from the shaun Haijing. 160 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: There is a bird here which looks like a duck, 161 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: but it only has one wing and one eye. It 162 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: can only fly if it and another bird joined together. 163 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: Its name is the South Wild. Whenever it appears, there 164 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: will be severe floods overall under the sky. So, um, 165 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,719 Speaker 1: a half duck. Yeah, so a half duck that comes 166 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: together with another half duck and becomes a thing that 167 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: can fly. Um, you know it. It doesn't sound like 168 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: this is a divine being. There is a certain amount 169 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: of magic to it. I guess in that it's something 170 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: it does can be an omen or you know, con 171 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: clue you in about what's happening in the world at large. 172 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: But that seems to be part of the the the 173 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: world view of the time anyway. So so yeah, it's 174 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: it's not like all of these are magical creatures versus 175 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: uh in traditional creatures, because there are a lot of 176 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: non magical There are a lot of we'll discuss more 177 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: about this in a bit, but you know, it's it's 178 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: not just filled with with creatures that do not exist. 179 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: There are also creatures within this book that are very 180 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: much real creatures. And to be clear, that mixing of 181 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: the mythical realm with the utterly mundane natural realm uh 182 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: that appears in other types of bestiaries from from other 183 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: parts of the world too. Yeah, probably the I mean, 184 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: the main thing we're talking about when we're talking about 185 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: best areas are of course, medieval bestI areas of Europe. Uh. 186 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: There were These were among the most popular illuminated texts 187 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: in like northern Europe at the time. They were compendiums 188 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: of beasts real and imagined that were generally described in 189 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: terms of their religious meanings. Um. There's a second century 190 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: CE text called the Physiologists, and this is the earliest 191 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: known example of this sort of text, and it was 192 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: based on information compiled from other sources such as Aristotle's 193 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: History of Animals, Uh, the work of Herodotus and of Horse. 194 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: Another key text that we've referenced again and again on 195 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: this show that imagine a number of you are already 196 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: thinking about as a parallel to the to the shan Hajing, 197 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: and that is, of course plenty of the Elder's natural history, right, 198 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: his natural history, of course, Plenty of the Elder was 199 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: a Roman military officer, politician, and author who lived in 200 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: the first century CE, and his natural history is a 201 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: great window into what was thought to be known about 202 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: the world during that time in ancient Rome. Yeah, a 203 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: ten volume attempt to compile all ancient knowledge concerning a 204 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 1: multitude of subjects then included no shortage of magic and monsters. Now, 205 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: Strasburg makes some comments in his introduction that I thought 206 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: were interesting, which is that while the Shanhaijing has some 207 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: similarities to these Western ancient and medieval best jeries, it 208 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: is very different in that it does not do allegorical 209 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: moralizing the way especially medieval best jeries in Christian Europe 210 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: did um so I guess to clarify on that, Like 211 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: a lot of times, if you read one of these 212 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: medieval best charity's, it would be like, here's a monster, 213 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: here's the cockatrice, or here's the unicorn, here's the basilisk 214 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: and uh, and then that becomes sort of a metaphor 215 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: for something about like sin or redemption. You know, it 216 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: has special meaning within like Christian theology. For the authors 217 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: of the Shannaijing, I think it seems clear that this 218 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: would be more akin to something like what Plenty was doing. 219 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: It was about just the literal preservation and transmission of 220 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 1: what was believed to be real knowledge about the world. Yes. Now, 221 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: not to say that some of these various creatures end 222 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: up taking on additional meaning later on and are used 223 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: to push various points. But yeah, for the most part, 224 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: this is an idea of this, this is the world. 225 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: Let us try and chronicle what is going on in 226 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: the world, both the Chinese world and the world outside 227 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: the limits of Chinese culture. So the shan Haijing consists 228 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 1: of eighteen books uh that attempt to chronicle the world, 229 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: and it has it has no no own author, though 230 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: it was long attributed to the mythic ruler You the Great. 231 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: This is the individual who is said to have quelled 232 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: the Great Flood of China during the twenty one century BC. Now, 233 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: another interesting thing about the shaan Haijing, brought up by 234 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: both key sources for this episode, is that it has 235 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: a long resisted easy classification. Now, not to the extent 236 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: of say the van Eche manuscript, which you know, it 237 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: seems like it's perhaps a nonsense text, right, we we 238 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: can't apply any understanding to it, uh, we just have 239 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: theories about what it possibly could be. Um. So it's 240 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: not on that level, but it is to the extent 241 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: that different commentators across the centuries have looked to it 242 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: as different things and for different answers. So the shaan 243 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: Haijing has been seen as a book of ancient wisdom, 244 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: a book of omens, a book of geography, a book 245 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: of cosmology, a book of fiction, a book of mythology, 246 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 1: a book of traditional medicine, and and more. So this 247 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: is one of the reasons that the text to survive 248 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: so long while others have been lost to history as 249 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 1: a long you know tradition of writers, first in China 250 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: and eventually beyond, continued to come back to it time 251 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: and time again, and thus a text with origins dating 252 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: back to as you know, as far as the fourth 253 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 1: century b c. Remains a popular text to this day 254 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: and has been translated into numerous languages numerous times, uh, 255 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, and survived purges as well, you know, like like, oh, 256 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: you're throwing out cosmology books, Well, this is a book 257 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: of fiction, etcetera. And while we don't want to limit 258 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: the Shawnajing to just monsters, we did put monsters in 259 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: the title of the episodes because you know what we 260 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: like and we know what you like, So we thought 261 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: it was a good way to the ground it um, 262 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: you know, we wanted to catch your eye. But it 263 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: is filled with a lot of strange creatures, and and 264 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: not just creatures that are strange to modern Western readers, 265 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: but creatures that were strange to Chinese readers throughout the 266 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: book's history as well. Uh. Though, as the first commentator 267 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: of the book, go Po wrote, quote, A thing is 268 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: not strange in itself. It depends on me to make 269 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: it strange that uh, and that's that's a of that 270 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: Strasburg uses at the opening of his book. Uh. So 271 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: we just had to mention it here because I love 272 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: it in context here disgusting uh, this book, But it's 273 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: also just a great quote in general. Well, I feel 274 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: like in many ways that's sort of one of the 275 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: the underlying morals of themes of of at least what 276 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: we try to do on this show, I guess to 277 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: expand the broader quote from Gopu, he says that, you know, 278 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: people call something strange and they don't know why they 279 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: call them that. They call something's familiar, yet they know 280 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: not why either, What is the reason behind this? A 281 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: thing is not strange in itself. It depends on me 282 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: to make it strange. It is from me that this 283 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: strangeness results. It is not that the thing is fundamentally strange. 284 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: It makes me think about how often we just try 285 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: to remind you how strange something that you think is 286 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: normal is if you really think about it, right. Yeah, 287 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: And then the reverse is a useful exercise at times 288 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: as well. The thing that is strange, that is it 289 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: therefore intimidating or terrifying to you? Um, if you you 290 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: you turn it around, sometimes it's easier to to comprehend it. Now. 291 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: One theme that I was finding interesting when reading about 292 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: this book is its relationship to time and history in 293 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: the past. Um. One comment that that Strasburg makes is 294 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: that by like six b C, the year six b C, 295 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: the book was already regarded as a compendium of lost knowledge. 296 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: So it was already the kind of thing that people 297 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: were looking at and saying, Okay, this might not actually 298 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: be a perfect description of what's going on, of of 299 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: what the world is like today. It's this encyclopedia of 300 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: a bygone era. And this reminds me of something that 301 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's it's an interesting way of viewing 302 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: the world that I think is common to children, but 303 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: it was at least true about me when I was 304 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: a child, which was uh, when I was a kid, 305 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: I would watch like fantasy, you know, movies and TV 306 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: and read books like that that wizard and dragons and stuff. 307 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: And I think, for a while, I believe that wizards 308 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: and dragons don't exist today, but they used to exist 309 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: in the past, like my just the distinction was not like, 310 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: you know, uh, mundane is real, magical is not real. 311 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: Instead it was like mundane is now magical was past interesting? Well, 312 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: on one hand, I envy you for for having ever, 313 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: uh you know, gotten to believe that dragons were real. 314 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: But but at least I wondered, you know, it seemed 315 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: like it seemed like, okay, that maybe that's a plausible 316 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: view of how things were. Yeah, but I mean it 317 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: makes it makes sense because that's I mean, fantasy often is, 318 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 1: especially modern fantasy, is the the extra. It's like sci 319 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: fi and reverse. It's the exercise of engaging with an 320 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: imagine past that tells us something about the present. But 321 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting. Sometimes people would navigate this difference 322 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: by saying, okay, a an encyclopedic work that has lots 323 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: of monsters and strange creatures in it. It's not so 324 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: much that this is unreal and mythical and magical. Instead, 325 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: it's like a reference to some lost previous time and place. Yeah, yeah, 326 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: like the time when these creatures roamed. Uh. And of 327 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: course that's sort of a view of time. You did 328 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: to see that reflected in a lot of different traditions 329 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: and cultures, you know, like there was a time when 330 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: there were giants, there was a time when there were 331 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: dragons or unnatural beings walked the earth because of some cataclysm. Well, 332 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: and I think it's interesting that it seems like people 333 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: were making this distinction even in the ancient world, in 334 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 1: the Bronze Age, people would have this idea that like, oh, 335 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: there was a wilder, more magical time in the I 336 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 1: don't know what, you know, the the Antediluvian time, like 337 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: before the flood, there were more of these, uh, these 338 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: magical creatures roaming around now. And I can't remember offhand 339 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: if it was Barrel or if it was Strasburg who 340 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: points this out, but some, at least some of the 341 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: creatures described in the in the in the book in 342 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: the shaun Haijing could be creatures that went extinct. So 343 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: you know, not to say that's the case with say 344 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: that that the half a duck that comes together the 345 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: other duck, but various other creatures that maybe don't seem 346 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: to match up with things that live today. It could 347 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: be something that was say hunted to extinction, that sort 348 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: of thing, not not like a stegasaurus, but you know, 349 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: something more reasonable. Uh, you know it could be the case, right, No, oh, 350 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: I see you're not saying like it's a theory that 351 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: dinosaurs survived into the recent past, but just like you know, 352 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: normal fauna. Maybe there was like a deer with a 353 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: different kind of horn or something like that that yeah, 354 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: that's being yeah, being interpreted as a mythical creature today. 355 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: But it was just another large mammal, right, or some 356 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: of the more mundane animals that are mentioned in there 357 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: as well. Um, so so let's go ahead have a 358 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: proper note about the sources here. So we've already touched 359 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 1: on a Chinese bestiary Strange Creatures from the Guide Way 360 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: through Mountains and Seas, translated and with notes by Richard Strassburg. 361 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: Uh you see, l a uh, this is a really 362 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: really beautiful book. Ye it has more illustrations than some 363 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: of the other texts you'll find out there, and the 364 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: illustrations are are really part of the fun of these, 365 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: uh of this text. Now, I think we were talking 366 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: about this before we started recording. The illustrations in the 367 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,719 Speaker 1: Strasburg version are wonderful, but I think they're they do 368 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 1: not date back as far as the text does. They're 369 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: more like a few hundred years old. They came from 370 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: some more recent edition of this text. There may have 371 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 1: been illustrations going as far back as the text does, 372 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: but we don't have those older illustrations anymore. Right, Yeah, 373 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: when we see this with other old books elsewhere, right, 374 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 1: like the illuminated version is old, but the text itself 375 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: that was transcribed in here and then illuminated he is older. Still. 376 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: You can also compare it to things like the sword. 377 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 1: The blade itself is much older, the sword handle, the 378 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: hilt is newer um. And that's pretty much what the 379 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: illustrations are here. But there was another book that was 380 00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: a full translation of of the classic that you were reading, right, Yes, 381 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: I was reading The Classic of Mountains and Seas translation 382 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: and Notes by Ann burrel H, an author of numerous 383 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 1: books on Chinese Mythology. She taught Chinese and Chinese literature 384 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: at Cambridge University in the City, University of New York. 385 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: And this is a book from I've referred to Burrel's 386 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: work before. She she has a book just titled Chinese 387 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: Mythology that I that I have and in Strasburg references 388 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: Burrel's translation of the shan Haijing as being a good 389 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: one and cites her in his book, though he notes 390 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: a quote highly imaginative rendition of the names and places 391 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: and things, the names of places and things. Uh. We'll 392 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: touch on this later. But both of these texts are 393 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: available at reasonable prices in hard or soft back. I 394 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: don't think either one can be purchased as a as 395 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: a digital book at this moment, but these books are 396 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: out there and they can be obtained, so if you're 397 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: interested after this episode, I highly recommend checking these out. 398 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: All Right, So let's talk a bit more about the 399 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: book and where it came from, and just I guess 400 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: starting by talking about the world that it describes. So 401 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: the first way to look at the book is to 402 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: look at it as a textual model or a map 403 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: of the world as envisioned in ancient China, and this 404 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:23,719 Speaker 1: largely conforms to the umbrella heaven model, Strasbourg tells us, 405 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: in which quote, heaven is like a rounded cover or 406 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: canopy supported at key points by sacred mountains above a flat, 407 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: square shaped earth. And then this square earth is encompassed 408 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: by four seas. So when you know the idea that's 409 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: the classic of the mountains and the seas, that's what 410 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,479 Speaker 1: we're talking about here, and the seas are like the 411 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: limits of the world and lands beyond those seas or 412 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: you know, far flung distant places. Uh. When you see 413 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: this represented sometimes it looks almost comically symmetrical, like it 414 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: doesn't look like a real map of the world. Um. 415 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: But I mean when you think about it, I think 416 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: if you had not actually been able to explore all 417 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: of the borders around you, seems like a perfectly reasonable 418 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: thing to imagine that a map of the world would 419 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,719 Speaker 1: be symmetrical, because I don't know, there are symmetries caused 420 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: just by the fact of like the curvature of the 421 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 1: earth that like if you look out in a flat 422 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: area in both directions, it seems to fall off at 423 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,479 Speaker 1: the same place. Uh, that kind of thing. Yeah, So 424 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: Strasburg writes that quote. In the distant past, the concept 425 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: of seas may have been more metaphorical, referring to anybody 426 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: of water or even a land mass that lay beyond 427 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: the limits of the home territory. As the local Chinese 428 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: ethnic culture has expanded and had more direct contact with 429 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: the oceans to the northeast, east, and south, the term 430 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: seas took on more concrete meaning, while the magical concept 431 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: of four remained more symbolic than real, especially with regard 432 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: to the quote western sea. So the Western Sea might 433 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: have been more like you know, the the expanse of 434 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: land reaching out towards central Central Asia and Europe and 435 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: in India. Yes, exactly. Now. In terms of comparing the 436 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: Shawn Haijen two books that more that listeners are more 437 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: familiar with in the Western world, another one we might 438 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: compare it to is the Bible, because like the Bible, 439 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: we have different authors and different works from different periods 440 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: of time coming together in a single collection. Yes, as 441 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: a as a big appreciator of the Bible, this is 442 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: actually like maybe the one note I would give somebody 443 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: to better understand the Bible. I think the single biggest 444 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: problem modern people have with understanding and interpreting the Bible 445 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: is failing to recognize it as a collection of books 446 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: written by different authors across hundreds of years, working their 447 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: own distinct perspectives. I think so much modern confusion about 448 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: the Bible arises from the tortured logic of trying to 449 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: interpret it as like as if it were a single 450 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: book by a single author representing one unified message. Yeah, 451 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,479 Speaker 1: you can really get stylist whiplash two going from one 452 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: top of the Bible to another. Yeah. So yeah, I 453 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: mean that's you know, a former former show guest Bart 454 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: Rman who came on to talk about the origins of 455 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: the concepts of heaven and hell um. He talked, he 456 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: talks about this a good bit too, that like you've 457 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: got to let each of the books of the Bible 458 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: be its own work and like understand what it's individual 459 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: author was trying to do with it. Yeah. But now 460 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: I would say the Shannhai Jing is somewhat different though, 461 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: because it's not like, hey, here's one book that has 462 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: a distinct author and then it's always identified. This is 463 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: more like a collection of things that don't always identify 464 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: them as coming from a different author, right, Yeah, I mean, 465 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: and and in general, we just have the authorship is 466 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: an is anonymous because we don't really know who wrote 467 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 1: any of these pieces. Yeah, is a barrel points out 468 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: it's it comprises quote several texts of varying chronology and authorship, 469 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: And the most obvious textual divide occurs between books five 470 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: and six, because books one through five are often known 471 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: collectively as the Five Treasures, the Classic of Mountains. So 472 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 1: for starters, just to talk about, you know, the Five 473 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: Treasures here these five books concern in glowing terms, the 474 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: square earth of the Chinese realm um, the the the 475 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: Chinese world, you know that is, you know, surrounded by 476 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 1: the seas. When we venture into books six through eighteen, 477 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: we venture into the increasingly barbaric and strange lands beyond 478 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 1: the borders of China. So that's one way to look 479 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: at these books, with the first five chapters representing the 480 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: known Chinese world and the other books looking beyond its 481 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: borders to stranger lands. And now this is interesting to 482 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: Beryl also classifies these first five books as being more 483 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: of a proto scientific document by someone who was seemingly 484 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: a traveler naturalist who acquired information about the regions of 485 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: China firsthand. Most of the details relate to botanical and 486 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: zoological information, but there's also some geology and medicine, particularly 487 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: concerning the medicinal use of the various planted animals that 488 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: are explored. Uh then the animals mentioned again, they range 489 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: from um, you know something that that clearly is an 490 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: actual animal and was extant at the time, to potentially 491 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: extinct and just outright mythical and magical beings. Just to 492 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: give an example of this that I'm going to read 493 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: once more from from Barrel, and this is from the 494 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: first five books. The river View contains numerous patterned flying 495 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: fish that look like carp They have a fish's body 496 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: but a bird's wings. They have bright blue markings and 497 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: a white head with a scarlet mouth. These flying fish 498 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: often travel to the West Sea and Sport in the 499 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: East Sea. They travel by night. They make a noise 500 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: like a wonderbird chicken. They have a sweet and sour taste. 501 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: If you eat some, it will cure madness. Whenever it appears, 502 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: there will be bumper harvests all over under the sky. 503 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: Now we see several things here that are repeated in 504 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: lots of the animal or monster entries within the shann 505 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: Haijing because you'll often get like a place where this 506 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: is found a physical description. It makes a sound like 507 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: x if you can be used to cure why ailment 508 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: and is an omen for z right, you know, so 509 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: there's like a standard format to these. Yea, not all 510 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: of them follow, but that's a really common, recurring kind 511 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,239 Speaker 1: of structure. Yeah. So so this is what Barrel has 512 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: to say about this quote. It has to be said 513 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: that the discussion of botany and zoology in the first 514 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: five books is not conducted according to taxonomic principles, and 515 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: it is often based on mythological inspiration or misguided errors 516 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: of identification, which diminished scientific accuracy. On the other hand, 517 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: given the lack of development in classical science in the 518 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: ancient world generally, the attention to botanic and zoological detail 519 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: in the classic is quite remarkable and serves as evidence 520 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: for a foundation. However, rudimentary of the scientific method in 521 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: ancient China. Absolutely, I mean one of the first and 522 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: most important steps in studying the natural world is making 523 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: a catalog of things. You have to like survey what's 524 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: in the world right down it's characteristics so that other 525 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: people can read it identify the same thing and then 526 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: talk about it and compare their notes. Right, so, even 527 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: though it ends up including things that they clearly never existed, 528 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: like the half ducks. Um, you know, like the template 529 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,719 Speaker 1: is sound, you know, if you're gonna attempt to catalog 530 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: everything like that's these are some good points to consider. 531 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: I'm shocked at your closed mindedness. You don't think there 532 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: was ever a half duck? Well, you know, who knows? 533 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: Who knows? Um, especially when we get into some of 534 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: the translation issues. Will discuss in a bit um. So anyway, 535 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: there are editorial interventions in these first five books, but 536 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: then books six through eighteen lean increasingly towards the mythic 537 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: and the fantastic. Also, in dealing with foreign people's we 538 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: the same sorts of xenophobic myth making that all ancient 539 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: cultures engaged in foreign people's are discussed in terms of 540 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: barbarism and beastliness, though, as Barrel points out, quote inhabitants 541 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: who wear a cap and belt are given mild approval. Yeah, 542 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: there are all kinds of things that are I guess 543 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: you would say that there's somewhere between ethnographies of neighboring 544 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: you know, groups of people, and discussions of beasts, because 545 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: there will be like entries about people who have I 546 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: don't know, faces in their torsos or something. This is 547 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: obviously not real people, but they're treated as if they're 548 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: like a tribe of humans, right, And of course this 549 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: corresponds directly with things we see in plenty right yea um. 550 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: But anyway, there's there is a you know, a sense 551 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: of cultural superiority and discussing um Chinese culture and other 552 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: people's from other realms beyond the boundaries of the ancient 553 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: Chinese world. And it's also reflected in the sort of 554 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: names given to foreign creatures and even foreign places. There's 555 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: a strong sense of the inner Chinese world as a 556 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: sacred environment and the lands outside is profane or even cursed. 557 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,479 Speaker 1: Given such names as these are translated, of course by 558 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: Beryl black Tooth. And I love this one, the land 559 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: of Ghoul and the name okay oh. I was just 560 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,479 Speaker 1: gonna say, I like the people who have weird ears, 561 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: like they're people with like long ears, and then the 562 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: people with pendant ears, and then the people with there 563 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: are other kind of ears I think too loppy ears. 564 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: Is one hound armor um, which I'm not sure exactly 565 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: what that would mean, but um, you know this, this 566 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: it gives you something to go on, like those words. 567 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: And this is all an example of what Strasburg is 568 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: talking about regarding Beryl's use of names. It reminds me 569 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: a lot of something we talked about recently on the show, Uh, 570 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: the names of demons and Dante's Infernos and uh and 571 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: translations of Inferno, all the demons of the Mala Bronca group, 572 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: the evil clause. I mean, Mala Bronca sounds a lot 573 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: cooler than evil clause, but that is what it translates to. 574 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: But I'd rather just call him Mala Bronca. Yeah, Like 575 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: like who do you want to read about? Scarmiglion or 576 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: troublemaker Malacoda or evil tale? Um? You know, did the 577 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: non Italian speaker either choice misses something right? I think 578 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: one of them is translates to something like bad pig 579 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: or something or something mean pig. Yeah. I mean it's tough, 580 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: right because on one hand, like the the the more 581 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: literal translation like evil tale, evil pig, troublemaker, etcetera, it 582 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: gives you a little more to go on, like concrete description, 583 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: you know, uh, and you can you can begin to 584 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: form an image of that awful demon in your mind. 585 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: But then the the Italian uh you know, often has this. 586 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: It works like this, like the name itself. It has 587 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: a certain sound, it has a certain energy to it 588 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: that is not going to necessarily survive translation. And of 589 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: course it's it has it has a foreign air to it. 590 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: It feels exotic. Oh, this reminds me. A few years 591 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: ago we did an episode on a concept known as idiophones, 592 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: which is the the the suggestion that there are certain 593 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: types of sounds that two people seem to convey particular 594 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: meanings despite having no uh, despite having you know, no 595 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: no linguistic relationship and a dictionary definition, since the fact 596 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: that like in any language, apparently like hard k sounds 597 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: are naturally associated with like sharp corners and abrasiveness and 598 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: stuff like that. And I think some of that really 599 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: comes through in Dante's names for for the demons of 600 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: the Malibranca troupe. But also there's another layer there, which 601 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 1: is that I think it's hypothesized by some scholars that 602 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: Dante was literally trying to create the names of these 603 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: demons to sound kind of similar to names of people 604 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: from Tuscany that he didn't like. Well that that sounds 605 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: perfectly reasonable. Yeah, that's that's that's Dante to a t Alright, 606 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: So yes, all these things concerning the translation of demon 607 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: name hims in the Inferno, I feel like they're all 608 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: they're all present here as well dealing with this translation. 609 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: But that's just Italian into English. It's even more complicated 610 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: when you're translating ancient Mandarin into modern English. So Strasburg 611 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,240 Speaker 1: stresses that the Chinese graphs possess one or more meanings. 612 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: So names in the Classic might be rather comprehensible, they 613 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: might be ambiguous or convey multiple meanings, or they might 614 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: be names that quote cannot be understood with any certainty, 615 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:34,240 Speaker 1: even if the graphs may function semantically in other contexts. Okay, 616 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: what does that mean? Okay? So, for instance, there's a 617 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: creature that that pops up in book fourteen that is 618 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,240 Speaker 1: described as a beast. That quote looks like an ox 619 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 1: with a bright blue body, but it has no horns 620 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: and only one foot. When it comes out of the 621 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: water and goes back in, there are there's there are all. 622 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: There's always wind and rain, and the glare from it 623 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: is like that from the sun and the moon. The 624 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: animal makes a sound like thunder. And its name is 625 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: and then it depends on what translation you're reading. So 626 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: Barrel translates its name as awe struck. I am awe 627 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: struck by that's glare like the sun in the moon, 628 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: and it's one ft. Strasburg merely writes, he is called 629 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: ka um. The kui is to use our alphabet. Uh 630 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,359 Speaker 1: So there you see the divide the divide here. Now again, 631 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: I kind of feel like I like both because, uh, 632 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, the the the more Mandarin name like it. 633 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: It has all of that. It feels um, it feels exotic, 634 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: it it has this kind of magical energy to it. 635 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: But then awe struck also gives me something to go on. Um, 636 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: So I can see the argument made in from from 637 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: from either translation, it's also described as a as a 638 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: thunder beast, and and just to give a little more 639 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: detail about it, because it has a fun little story 640 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: with it, the great God Yellow which it may also 641 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: be translated as the Yellow the Arc, but more commonly 642 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: known as the Low Emperor. I feel like that's how 643 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: I see this. Uh. This character described most of the 644 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: time Huangdi, and it basically what the the Yellow Emperor does. 645 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: He sees his creature. It's it's powerful, it has all 646 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: this energy. So he kills it, and he makes its 647 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: skin into a drum and he uses one of its 648 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: bones to beat the drum. Uh. And it is, as 649 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: you might imagine, quite loud. And so this instrument becomes 650 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: crucial in his battle against chi Yo, the legendary creator 651 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 1: of metal working and weapons. Well, that seems very fitting 652 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: because again, as we've said, a lot of the entries 653 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: in the shann Haijing don't just tell you what a 654 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: creature is and where it is, but they often tell you, 655 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: like what what you can do with it, Like it 656 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: will protect against weapons, or it is a medicine that 657 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 1: will prevent swelling. Yeah, and if you happen to be 658 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,720 Speaker 1: a god, there are additional things you can do with it. Apparently. 659 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: Um Now, Like like most mythical creatures, there are a 660 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: lot of variations with the quay. Here in yang and 661 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: and Turner's Chinese Mythology and another book that I have here, 662 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: they point out that Confucius use the quay in order 663 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: to teach the concept of one is enough regarding the 664 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: staffing of key talented officials, because again, this is in 665 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: essence a one legged ox um. So I found that 666 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: pretty interesting. Um well, I like that. How even if 667 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,280 Speaker 1: in the original text these monsters are not usually presented 668 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: as something that's supposed to have an allegorical meaning, it's 669 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: just like, hey, here's a monster, here's what it where 670 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: it is, what it does? Uh that that interpreters will 671 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: give it an allegorical meaning, right, Yeah, So that's something 672 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: to keep in mind with all of these with it, 673 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: as is always the case, once a mythological creature is 674 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: introduced or reintroduced stephen um, others may may take it 675 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: and change it and adapt it and use it for 676 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: other purposes. Now, Barrell notes that regarding translations, in some 677 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: ways the Shaan Hajing is less challenging than other archaic 678 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 1: text but that the quote nature of the textual problems 679 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: of the classic resides in the great number of for 680 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: which the text is the locust classicus, and for which 681 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 1: no safe and satisfactory glosses have yet been offered. So 682 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: if you remember back to our episode on the Chinese typewriter, 683 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: you might recall these facts about managing characters. So, first 684 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 1: of all, the overall Chinese lexicon numbers in the tens 685 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 1: of thousands, forty seven thousand, uh, you'll find in one 686 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,279 Speaker 1: of the key dictionaries, and it's been it's been summarized 687 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: that in order to get the basic gist of a 688 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 1: Chinese newspaper today, you would need to know between twelve 689 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 1: hundred and fifteen hundred characters uh to UH. To really 690 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: sufficiently understand what you're reading, you'd need to know between 691 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: two thousand and three thousand. Meanwhile, a well educated Chinese 692 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: speaker in today's world likely knows six thousand to eight 693 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: thousand characters. So that's like less than twenty percent of 694 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 1: the of the total vocabulary. Yeah. So, so what Barrel 695 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: is saying here regarding the shawn Haijing is that there 696 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: are some characters or graphs in it that are the 697 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 1: best known or the primary example of usage, you know, 698 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: like you don't find them anywhere else, or this is 699 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: the main place you find them. So it might be 700 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,879 Speaker 1: the name of a place or a creature, and there's 701 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: not much in the way of additional context. Okay, so 702 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,439 Speaker 1: it's just like here, here's the thing, and we don't 703 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: really have any other reference points going back any further 704 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: for it. Right, so Beryl sums up her translation choices 705 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: being one that avoids transliteration and immediately brings the classic 706 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: to life, you know, again getting that idea of like awestruck, 707 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: that will give you some idea of what this one 708 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: legged ox is doing. Um, there's some three thousand place names, 709 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: she writes in the text easily becomes overcrowded otherwise, and 710 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: she goes into a lot more detail about this, essentially 711 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: laying out her entire philosophy on translating this challenging text. 712 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: But anyway back to the format here. While there there 713 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: is a concise formulaic style in the first five books 714 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: that can seemingly be attributed to a potential still unknown 715 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,399 Speaker 1: single author books six through eighteen or a different matter, 716 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: Beryl writes that that the text becomes dis jointed, repetitive, minimalist, 717 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 1: even uh like quote hurried, even careless travel notes. And 718 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 1: there are different theories as to why. Some commentators have 719 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: proposed that these were collected originally on bamboo slips and 720 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: they became displaced at some point and resulting in disorder. 721 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: Others have pointed more to editorial editions and even censorship, 722 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: and Barrel describes these books as a you know, a 723 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 1: makeshift text made up of different reports from different travelers 724 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: put together with no attempt at literary form. But that 725 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 1: doesn't mean the books six through eighteen are less interesting 726 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: or anything. Barrel writes that that quote, they contain such 727 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: valuable and unrivaled data on anthropology and ethnology, genealogy, ecology, 728 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: and mythology that their content more than makes up for 729 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: the deficiencies of style. I'll say, I can't wait to 730 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: read more passages from this book in part two. Yeah, yeah, 731 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: there's there's so much wild and wonderful stuff in there, 732 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: um so. But but it's one of these things, like 733 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 1: I think, when I first started looking into this, I thought, oh, 734 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 1: here's a here's a book from which we can just 735 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,880 Speaker 1: draw some interesting creatures highlight. And then the more I 736 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 1: looked at it, I realized that the book itself, like 737 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: the story of the book on the form of the book, 738 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: was just so fascinating and ultimately makes us think about 739 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: like books in general, and books and other that comes 740 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: from other cultures. You know, ancient books, holy books, you 741 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: know how they're built and how we think about them. Right, Well, 742 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: one thing that it definitely has in common with many 743 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 1: other ancient works, and that that that I think is 744 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: always very interesting is that it's the work of many hands. 745 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,839 Speaker 1: You know, this is obviously there were different authors at 746 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: different times adding to this collection, and there are different 747 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: sensibilities going into the entries within this this travel guide 748 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 1: or encyclopedia or mythic geography, whatever you want to call it. 749 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,880 Speaker 1: But it has through much of history been ascribed to 750 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: a single author. Said, yeah, you the Great wrote this. 751 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: It was one guy, And so you're imagining a single 752 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: brain from lad gend that poured forth this thing that 753 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 1: is quite clearly in reality an amalgam. Yeah, of course, 754 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: you know, if You the Great had written it, if 755 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: that were true, that would mean the book would be 756 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: like four thousand years old. Um. But in reality, the 757 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,399 Speaker 1: first five books, the Five Treasures, uh, they probably date 758 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: from the third century BC, and most modern scholars date 759 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,800 Speaker 1: everything in the book from the period between the early 760 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,280 Speaker 1: third century BC and the earliest centuries C. Again written 761 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: by a number of authors over the course of centuries, 762 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: though perhaps books one through five were written by the 763 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:43,399 Speaker 1: same individual. Thank thank now we've mentioned him already because 764 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 1: he's the source of that great uh quote about how 765 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 1: it is me that makes something strange. But the the 766 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 1: author of this quote was was Go Po, who lived 767 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,320 Speaker 1: to seventy six to three twenty four, who was a 768 00:42:55,480 --> 00:43:00,040 Speaker 1: scholar and poet and a really important commentator on the 769 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: classic of the mountains and seas through history. A little 770 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: background on Go Po. My main source here is an 771 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 1: introduction to Chinese poetry from the Canon of Poetry to 772 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,000 Speaker 1: the Lyrics of the Song Dynasty by Michael Fuller, published 773 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: by brill In So. Go Pho lived under the chaotic 774 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: end of the Western Jin dynasty, which fell apart due 775 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: to all kinds of simultaneous crises around the year three sixteen. 776 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 1: I think there was some kind of succession dispute for 777 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:33,799 Speaker 1: the leadership that turned into violent chaos, and uh, all 778 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: kinds of things went wrong. But then eventually power was 779 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: reconsolidated under what's known as the Eastern Jin. I think 780 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: like the year after that, and Go Pu served out 781 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 1: under the Eastern Gin. Now, according to Fuller, Go Pu 782 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: was the pre eminent writer of the early Eastern Jin, 783 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,400 Speaker 1: and this would of course include poetry. He was a poet, 784 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: and I'm going to read one of his poems in 785 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: a minute. But he was also an immensely learned scholar, 786 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: having had the benefit of access to the Imperial Library 787 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: since he was young due to the fact that his 788 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 1: father was also a member of the Gin Court. In 789 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,919 Speaker 1: addition to writing a commentary on the on the Shanhaijing, 790 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: he also wrote commentaries on other works such as the 791 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: Lyrics of Chew and he annotated the earliest surviving Chinese 792 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 1: dictionary the area. But unfortunately, Go Pu met a horrible 793 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,320 Speaker 1: end due to one of his his particular skills. To 794 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 1: quote here from Fuller, he was also adept at divination, 795 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,400 Speaker 1: but this talent led to his violent death. When the 796 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: military commander Wang Dunn was planning a rebellion, Go Pu, 797 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,080 Speaker 1: at the time was serving as his adjutant. Wang sawt 798 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,280 Speaker 1: the divination about whether he would succeed, and Go's answer 799 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:50,360 Speaker 1: was surely not. Wang had him killed. It's a dangerous, 800 00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: a dangerous business, uh reading, reading omens and and telling 801 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: the future to military leaders, or just in general, delivering 802 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,320 Speaker 1: bad news to bad tempered leaders. And some guys just 803 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,960 Speaker 1: don't want to hear bad news. But as for his poetry, 804 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 1: I got sidetracked for a bit looking at his poetry, 805 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: which I thought was interesting. Much of it apparently doesn't 806 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 1: survive to the present. But of what does survive. Fourteen 807 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,160 Speaker 1: of the surviving poems are part of a series he 808 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,920 Speaker 1: wrote called Poems on Wandering Immortals and Fuller Rights Quote. 809 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:28,279 Speaker 1: In these, Gopu develops a persona that scorns the trappings 810 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 1: of success and instead yearns for the simple life of reclusion. 811 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,360 Speaker 1: The language of the poems, in contrast to their themes, 812 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 1: shows strong traces of gin Courtly rhetorical embellishment and area edition. 813 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: Which is funny because in reading about that, and in 814 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 1: actually reading the poems themselves, I felt some resonance with 815 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:49,920 Speaker 1: another theme that has come up several times on the 816 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:54,399 Speaker 1: show recently, which is pastoral poetry. But I just want 817 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: to read a bit here from the first of the 818 00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:01,840 Speaker 1: poems on Wondering Immortals by Gopu writes, the capital is 819 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,280 Speaker 1: a layer of wandering nights. Mountain forests provide a roost 820 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,279 Speaker 1: for the recluse. How is a vermilion gate worth glorifying? 821 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,600 Speaker 1: It is not so good as lodging at ping Lie? 822 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,840 Speaker 1: And ping Lie was one of the aisles of the 823 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,600 Speaker 1: immortals in the Eastern Ocean. With the poem goes on 824 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,440 Speaker 1: standing by the spring head, I decant its pure waves 825 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:28,680 Speaker 1: on ridges and knolls, I gather cinnabar sprouts at mystic ravine, 826 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,400 Speaker 1: one can dwell in hiding. Why strive to ascend the 827 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,560 Speaker 1: cloud ladder? And that last line there really struck me 828 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,920 Speaker 1: because I was like, what is a cloud ladder? I 829 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 1: looked it up and a cloud ladder was a was 830 00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:47,480 Speaker 1: a an ancient Chinese siege weapon that was like a folding, 831 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 1: hinged ladder that was used to breach city walls. Now 832 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 1: I think it's being used metaphorically here, a metaphor for 833 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,920 Speaker 1: the you know, the sort of like constant struggle of 834 00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,719 Speaker 1: trying to ascend through the ranks of city life and 835 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 1: be acratic life in the court. Yeah, yeah, it's it 836 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: seems kind of fitting to right, this idea of the 837 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,719 Speaker 1: ladder is the thing you're ascending as part of your 838 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: your life is the rat race. But of course, the 839 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 1: thing about us an actual siege ladder is once you 840 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 1: get to the top, uh, Like that's one of the 841 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,440 Speaker 1: most dangerous parts, right, because now you're up there with 842 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: the other soldiers. Um, you know, in a way it 843 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,359 Speaker 1: kind of you know, it it kind of forecasts his death, 844 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,359 Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know, working your way up being 845 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,080 Speaker 1: a part of the system being close to power um, 846 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,560 Speaker 1: and then you know you're right up there at the top, 847 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: and that's when they get you. Right, You're about to 848 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,759 Speaker 1: get a halberd through the guts. Yeah, but I thought 849 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:39,759 Speaker 1: it was really interesting. I didn't plan it to come 850 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,359 Speaker 1: out this way. But on a couple of episodes, Uh, 851 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,680 Speaker 1: recently we've been talking about some of the ironies of 852 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 1: pastoral poetry, which is a tradition going back thousands of years. 853 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,319 Speaker 1: We were talking about the pastoral poetry of virgil Um 854 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 1: and some pastoral poetry probably falsely attributed to Virgil and 855 00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,680 Speaker 1: then also in more recent years where what what a 856 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:01,480 Speaker 1: lot of it seems to have in common is this 857 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:07,040 Speaker 1: irony that it was poetry espousing the purity and the 858 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,880 Speaker 1: goodness and and how nice and easy it would be 859 00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,680 Speaker 1: to be like a rural shepherd instead of somebody living 860 00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:14,560 Speaker 1: in a city. But it was always written by people 861 00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:16,880 Speaker 1: who only had lived in cities, had never been a 862 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,200 Speaker 1: rural shepherd. Then like it probably didn't understand what kind 863 00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:24,440 Speaker 1: of work was involved in an agricultural existence, and uh 864 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,160 Speaker 1: and so yeah, and this seems like the same thing. 865 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,560 Speaker 1: I mean, not to not to disparage Gopu, who it 866 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,480 Speaker 1: seems like he was a really interesting poet. But it 867 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 1: seems yet again, like this is somebody who his whole 868 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,160 Speaker 1: life had lived, you know, the courtly life, and he's 869 00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,960 Speaker 1: idealizing the life of someone living alone in the wilderness, 870 00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,799 Speaker 1: which obviously would come with its own with its own 871 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,600 Speaker 1: harshness and struggles. But I guess the grass is always greener, 872 00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,480 Speaker 1: or the cinnabar, the cinnabar sprouts are always greener when 873 00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,279 Speaker 1: you're trying to climb the cloud ladder. This this also 874 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,839 Speaker 1: reminds me of something that Barrel brings up, pointing out 875 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,360 Speaker 1: that one of the early early admirers of the Classic 876 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 1: was a fourth century nature poet by the name of 877 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,960 Speaker 1: Tao Yuan Ming, who wrote an appreciative poem titled on 878 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,560 Speaker 1: Reading the Classic of the Mountains of the Seas, And 879 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,880 Speaker 1: basically it's the poem telling you the best way to 880 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,680 Speaker 1: read this book, and it involves like setting out, going 881 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,120 Speaker 1: out into nature, being in a garden that has been 882 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,040 Speaker 1: freshened by a rain shower, being surrounded by good friends, 883 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,600 Speaker 1: having some new wine. You know, there's a gentle breeze, 884 00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:29,759 Speaker 1: and then he says, quote, if this isn't happiness, then 885 00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,680 Speaker 1: I don't know what is, but there's kind of like 886 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,799 Speaker 1: a pastoral longing um tied up with appreciation of the book, 887 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,520 Speaker 1: which makes sense given that those first five chapters, the 888 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,600 Speaker 1: Five Treasures are are in a large part just about 889 00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,360 Speaker 1: the beauty of the Chinese landscape and and and the 890 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,560 Speaker 1: world of of of China. So I feel like those 891 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,480 Speaker 1: two things go together, you know, rather snugly. Well, let's 892 00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:58,600 Speaker 1: say that's actually a very strong tradition throughout throughout different 893 00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:00,920 Speaker 1: ages of Chinese poets. One of the things that I 894 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,520 Speaker 1: think is one of the most unifying characteristics of Chinese 895 00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:09,360 Speaker 1: poetry in particular is its tactle appreciation of the specific 896 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,920 Speaker 1: surfaces and images of nature. There are tons of of 897 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,440 Speaker 1: wonderful Chinese poems just about the you know, the feeling 898 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,239 Speaker 1: of the water of the stream, and the and the 899 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,600 Speaker 1: and the sun shining off of the leaves of the tree. 900 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,040 Speaker 1: There's a lot of very very textural pleasure of the 901 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: natural world. The half ducks coming together and flying off. 902 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,200 Speaker 1: So yeah. The earliest commentary on the shan Hajjing is 903 00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,719 Speaker 1: is that of Gopu, and in it he shares a 904 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,320 Speaker 1: really cool story to illustrate how this older text found 905 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,080 Speaker 1: new life, a story that was first mentioned in the 906 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:51,719 Speaker 1: earliest preface to the shan Haijing by Lu Sen, who 907 00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:55,520 Speaker 1: lived fifty three BC through twenty three C. And in 908 00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,560 Speaker 1: this account, basically this is what happens. It's it's fifty 909 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,160 Speaker 1: C and the Han Emperor visits a cave in northwest 910 00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:04,920 Speaker 1: China that has just been opened up, and here they 911 00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,240 Speaker 1: find the remains of a man with his hands bound 912 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:12,040 Speaker 1: behind his back, bound with his own long hair, and 913 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,240 Speaker 1: one of his feet is in fetters. And the emperor 914 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,200 Speaker 1: is just fascinated by this. He's very curious Um, and 915 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:22,200 Speaker 1: he asks his entourage for an explanation, but no one 916 00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:26,719 Speaker 1: has an answer except for the librarian Loui ci hung Uh. 917 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,960 Speaker 1: He recognizes it and explains that there is a parallel 918 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,520 Speaker 1: to this in in a book that he has in 919 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,880 Speaker 1: the Classic of the Mountains and Seas, And it's the 920 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:40,080 Speaker 1: myth of Perils and twain Loads ritual execution for the 921 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,080 Speaker 1: murder of a lesser god beloved by a greater god Um. 922 00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,480 Speaker 1: Now this would be twain Load here or Erfu was 923 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,920 Speaker 1: a god and ultimately a corpse deity Um who was 924 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:54,840 Speaker 1: indeed ritually executed for the murder of notch flaw or 925 00:51:55,000 --> 00:52:00,000 Speaker 1: yah Yu, a polymorphic deity that eats humans, sometimes described 926 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,040 Speaker 1: more in terms of a cannibal. And then twain Load 927 00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:06,719 Speaker 1: is then resurrected by Shamans after his death, thus his 928 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,759 Speaker 1: status as a corpse deity. So anyway, the in in 929 00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:14,360 Speaker 1: this little account barrel rights, the Emperor was absolutely astounded 930 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,920 Speaker 1: by this, and from that time on people were in 931 00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,520 Speaker 1: competition to study the classic. And so you know, this 932 00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:24,160 Speaker 1: begins a long tradition of studying the text, commenting on it, 933 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:28,200 Speaker 1: and eventually translating it into other languages. Various views of 934 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,759 Speaker 1: the text or favored throughout its history, and uh yeah, 935 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,600 Speaker 1: it ends up you know still to this day, you know, 936 00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,239 Speaker 1: people are writing books about it, new translations are coming 937 00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,200 Speaker 1: out about it, and um uh it's and also you 938 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,160 Speaker 1: see new works emerged in recent centuries as well. During 939 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,520 Speaker 1: the eighteenth century, the Chinese writer Uh Leads you Chen, 940 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,000 Speaker 1: who lived seventeen sixty three through eighteen thirty, wrote a 941 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:55,080 Speaker 1: satirical novel that inverted the ridicule of the book. Instead 942 00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,960 Speaker 1: of facing outward towards non Chinese, it faced in at 943 00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:03,640 Speaker 1: the Chinese people, subverting the mythology to point out perceived 944 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:08,080 Speaker 1: faults in the national character, which is an interesting satire 945 00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:11,080 Speaker 1: of his own culture exactly. Yeah, and it's titled The 946 00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,320 Speaker 1: Flowers in the Mirror and I checked you can you 947 00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,440 Speaker 1: can actually get you can get an English translation of this. 948 00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,920 Speaker 1: That sounds interesting. Now, both authors here go into a 949 00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,239 Speaker 1: lot more detail about about all of this about it's 950 00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,520 Speaker 1: it's you know, the intricate details and like major translations 951 00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,360 Speaker 1: and major commentators. But hopefully this brief history will suffice 952 00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:30,680 Speaker 1: for the podcast and help help provide a base from 953 00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,920 Speaker 1: which to enjoy the text. Uh. Yeah, we were already 954 00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,200 Speaker 1: going pretty long for part one, so we'll have to 955 00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,680 Speaker 1: call it there, I think, and come back with more 956 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,560 Speaker 1: in part two. Yeah, part two, though, there's gonna be 957 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:46,040 Speaker 1: strange creatures. Sometimes you can eat for magical powers, a 958 00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,520 Speaker 1: creature with just butts on both sides. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 959 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,520 Speaker 1: we'll talk about that critter for sure. So so yeah, 960 00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,360 Speaker 1: come back on Thursday and we will will dive deeper 961 00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,640 Speaker 1: into the Shawn Hai gene. In the meantime, you know, 962 00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:01,880 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from everybody out there, especially if 963 00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:06,560 Speaker 1: you have expertise regarding a Mandarin or Chinese culture or 964 00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:10,040 Speaker 1: certainly this this particular book and its history. Uh, certainly 965 00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,320 Speaker 1: right in let us know. Uh. If you want to 966 00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:14,040 Speaker 1: listen to other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 967 00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,000 Speaker 1: you can find the podcast feed wherever you get your 968 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,800 Speaker 1: podcasts and wherever that happens to be. If they let you, 969 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,600 Speaker 1: just rate, review and subscribe. Huge thanks as always to 970 00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,839 Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would 971 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:28,560 Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on 972 00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:30,759 Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for 973 00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:33,279 Speaker 1: the future, just to say hello, you can email us 974 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,080 Speaker 1: at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 975 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,480 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind's production of I Heart Radio. 976 00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,160 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my Heart Radio with the iHeart 977 00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,960 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your 978 00:54:52,000 --> 00:55:08,560 Speaker 1: favorite shows. The press story proper part