1
00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:19,360
Speaker 1: Ah beat Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

2
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,880
Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to software a Gradio Special Operations,

3
00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,120
Speaker 1: Military news and straight Talk with the guys and the

4
00:00:28,160 --> 00:01:13,600
Speaker 1: community SOFTWAP Radio on Time on Target. On with us

5
00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,959
Speaker 1: for the first time is the author of Blindsided by

6
00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,479
Speaker 1: the Taliban, a journalist story of war, trauma, love and loss,

7
00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,160
Speaker 1: which is out on sky Horse Publishing. And that is

8
00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,520
Speaker 1: Karmen genteel am I saying that right by the way,

9
00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,679
Speaker 1: Carmen gent That's exactly how I said. Perfect. Um, you

10
00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,200
Speaker 1: know he was right. I was shattered and one lined

11
00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,960
Speaker 1: while embedded with the army in two thousand and ten

12
00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,039
Speaker 1: as a journalist. Thanks for coming on with us. And

13
00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,480
Speaker 1: I think the first thing to get into before we

14
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,120
Speaker 1: get into the story of that day in September on

15
00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,760
Speaker 1: two thousand ten, um, would just be your history as

16
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,120
Speaker 1: a journalist and how you wound up there in the

17
00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:55,000
Speaker 1: first place. Oh. You know, I never really had a

18
00:01:55,040 --> 00:02:00,520
Speaker 1: clearly calculated course for my career. I star it out

19
00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,920
Speaker 1: reporting in the late nineties. I was living in Cairo,

20
00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,720
Speaker 1: I had studied Arabic in college and had really nothing

21
00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,919
Speaker 1: going on in my life other than than bartending and uh,

22
00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,280
Speaker 1: a professor had had said to me, Uh, my Arabic

23
00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,080
Speaker 1: professor said, why don't you go to Cairo and study

24
00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,160
Speaker 1: more Arabic? And I thought, sure, why not, I'll do that.

25
00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,800
Speaker 1: So I went there and really liked being in Egypt

26
00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,000
Speaker 1: and found a job at an English language weekly newspaper,

27
00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,320
Speaker 1: and it just sort of steamrolled from there. Uh. Spent

28
00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,880
Speaker 1: two years in Egypt. Then I moved on to Washington,

29
00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,480
Speaker 1: d C. Worked there for a couple of years before

30
00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,600
Speaker 1: moving on to Brazil, where I lived for four years.

31
00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,880
Speaker 1: And then while I was there, started going to Afghanistan,

32
00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,760
Speaker 1: start going to Iroq, and uh just became a habit

33
00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,360
Speaker 1: of sorts. I was wondering if you could tell us

34
00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,640
Speaker 1: a little bit about, you know, your experience in the

35
00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,080
Speaker 1: profession of journalism, because it's kind of an important subject

36
00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,680
Speaker 1: or topical now more than ever, I think, Um, you know,

37
00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,800
Speaker 1: a lot of journalists are being demonized. Um, some probably

38
00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,919
Speaker 1: rightly so, but a lot you know, you know, wrongly. Um.

39
00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,280
Speaker 1: You know, journalism plays an important role in in our society.

40
00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,519
Speaker 1: It's important to keep the public informed that. I was

41
00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:15,639
Speaker 1: just wondering if you could, um talk a little bit

42
00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,520
Speaker 1: about actually working in that profession since most of our

43
00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,480
Speaker 1: guests are military. They're on the other side of this thing. Um,

44
00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,679
Speaker 1: if you could talk a little bit about the nuts

45
00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:26,840
Speaker 1: and bolts and what it's really like to work as

46
00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:28,799
Speaker 1: a journalist, because I think a lot of people they

47
00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:30,519
Speaker 1: just don't know, they don't get it, and they think

48
00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,639
Speaker 1: that because they don't know, they project and think that,

49
00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:39,480
Speaker 1: you know, we're just constantly being lied to by creepy journalists. Um.

50
00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,280
Speaker 1: You know what's funny, I'm actually working with a military

51
00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:48,560
Speaker 1: veteran on a project now, a podcast series called Truth

52
00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,960
Speaker 1: about War, and Uh, it's funny because we have a

53
00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:57,640
Speaker 1: similar mentality as it pertains to uh, veterans and active

54
00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,320
Speaker 1: duty as it does with journalists. And he and is

55
00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,480
Speaker 1: he likes to assert that, you know, in any in

56
00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,240
Speaker 1: any one company, there's gonna be a percentage of guys

57
00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,280
Speaker 1: who are just pieces of ship. The same the same

58
00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,240
Speaker 1: goes for my profession. I like to especially in these

59
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,159
Speaker 1: trying times where people are are look at the media

60
00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,640
Speaker 1: as a monolith and say that mean that the media

61
00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:24,000
Speaker 1: is bad and the media is this that new whatever? Um. Uh,

62
00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,480
Speaker 1: I know that there I know bad journalists, you know,

63
00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,120
Speaker 1: just like there are bad doctors and bad lawyers and

64
00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,640
Speaker 1: bad uber drivers and bad everything right. But you know,

65
00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,359
Speaker 1: when it comes to the folks that I know and

66
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,760
Speaker 1: I like and the ones uh that I am proud

67
00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 1: to call colleagues that cover conflict, like, you have to understand,

68
00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:49,719
Speaker 1: um not, it's not a great paying gig, and it's

69
00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,040
Speaker 1: the job where you're risking your deck in a war

70
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,720
Speaker 1: zone without a weapon. You can I can't tell you

71
00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,320
Speaker 1: how many times I've gone out on in beds and

72
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,320
Speaker 1: I've got some young kids standing next He's like, I

73
00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,320
Speaker 1: can't believe you're out here without a weapon. I'm like,

74
00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:05,800
Speaker 1: you know, obviously I wouldn't carry a weapon. That's not

75
00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,920
Speaker 1: what we do. But um, you know, it never occurred

76
00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,000
Speaker 1: to me that I would be of any use with

77
00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,920
Speaker 1: the weapon. My weapon is are my eyes and my

78
00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,720
Speaker 1: and my notebook and my video camera telling the stories

79
00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,400
Speaker 1: of what's going on here. What I'm I'm there to

80
00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:31,760
Speaker 1: combat uh, misconceptions and and and shed some light on

81
00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,400
Speaker 1: what the hell is going on. You know. That's that's

82
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,440
Speaker 1: that's what I do, and so that's I can't speak

83
00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,800
Speaker 1: to why other people do it or what their motivations are,

84
00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:47,160
Speaker 1: but for me, it's about knowing for myself what's going

85
00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,359
Speaker 1: on in a particular situation. I never, for example, in

86
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,000
Speaker 1: a place like Afghanistan, I would never say I know

87
00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,520
Speaker 1: what's going on in Afghanistan. Never ever. Um. In fact,

88
00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,120
Speaker 1: I remember years ago, this is before Jim Foley was

89
00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,080
Speaker 1: abducted in Syria. He and I were in New York

90
00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,440
Speaker 1: together and we were at a we were out with

91
00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,920
Speaker 1: a bunch of colleagues, and Jim yells from across the room,

92
00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,080
Speaker 1: He's like, Carmen, do you know what's going on in Afghanistan?

93
00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,560
Speaker 1: And I look back and I'm going absolutely not. I've

94
00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,200
Speaker 1: been going there for years, and I would never say

95
00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,080
Speaker 1: that I do. But when I go to a certain place,

96
00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,160
Speaker 1: I go to one combat outpost and I hang out

97
00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,279
Speaker 1: with one group of guys, and I'm there to tell

98
00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,560
Speaker 1: their story through you know, that tiny little keyhole, trying

99
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,320
Speaker 1: to see what what it is that they're going through there,

100
00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,080
Speaker 1: and to let people know at home what the situation

101
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,039
Speaker 1: is and try to create some bigger context for the

102
00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:40,560
Speaker 1: for the conflict at large. But um, I always, as

103
00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,560
Speaker 1: a journalist go in with the idea that I have

104
00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,920
Speaker 1: no idea what's going on, and then I'm only there

105
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,839
Speaker 1: to try to figure out a little bit and add

106
00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:54,039
Speaker 1: to my knowledge. But I've always maintained that the more

107
00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,159
Speaker 1: I learned, the more I learned about the things I

108
00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,760
Speaker 1: don't know. So that's that's the attitude I keep that

109
00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,160
Speaker 1: gets me doing what I do. I think, Yeah, I

110
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,880
Speaker 1: think ignorance. I think people would be pretty shocked if

111
00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,680
Speaker 1: they learned how much money uh, freelancers make, or rather

112
00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,400
Speaker 1: don't make. Um, some of these young journalists I've known,

113
00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,160
Speaker 1: you know, young women going over to some very dangerous

114
00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,160
Speaker 1: parts of the world to get a picture, to take

115
00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,360
Speaker 1: pictures of conflict, um or to or to write a

116
00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,400
Speaker 1: wire story. And I mean they getting if they get

117
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,400
Speaker 1: a couple of hundred bucks, they're lucky. Yeah, a lot

118
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,320
Speaker 1: of people are going over there on their own dime,

119
00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,160
Speaker 1: their own time on steam and and and uh, I've

120
00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,160
Speaker 1: lost money on stories plenty of times. You know. I

121
00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,800
Speaker 1: I started out my career doing that. I try not

122
00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,680
Speaker 1: to do it now obviously. Um, I'm a little bit

123
00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,880
Speaker 1: older and a little more established. But you know the

124
00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,120
Speaker 1: costs this. You're not gonna get rich doing this job.

125
00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:54,960
Speaker 1: This is this is a gig that pays you and

126
00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,480
Speaker 1: hershey kisses and buttons, you know. Yeah, I think the

127
00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,120
Speaker 1: only people who make good money are like you know,

128
00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,800
Speaker 1: the Bob ross is. Uh, you know those types of

129
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:08,560
Speaker 1: people who are like the figureheads of major three letter networks. Yeah,

130
00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,320
Speaker 1: they make they good of course, they make good money. Um.

131
00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,960
Speaker 1: But you know, I've it's it's I've been fortunate that

132
00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,640
Speaker 1: I've been able to do it long enough that I've

133
00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,240
Speaker 1: been able to you know, do a little bit better.

134
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,120
Speaker 1: Um as I as I've gone on. But um no,

135
00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,040
Speaker 1: I'm not flush with cash, that's for sure. Yeah, I

136
00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:29,600
Speaker 1: know I get I get a kick out of it too.

137
00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,000
Speaker 1: And when you know you publish a story people don't

138
00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,480
Speaker 1: like Jack Murphy, You're just doing this to make money,

139
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,080
Speaker 1: You money grubbing fool and like, dude, you think publishing

140
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,000
Speaker 1: little stories that people hate me for it makes me rich?

141
00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,160
Speaker 1: Like you can let me, let me bring you back

142
00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,800
Speaker 1: down to reality. Yeah. Absolutely. If anything, you're costing your

143
00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,880
Speaker 1: company money when you do that. But yeah, it's a

144
00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,679
Speaker 1: it's an odd dynamic. And um, you know, I I

145
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,160
Speaker 1: definitely believe you know, an accountability and you know there

146
00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,840
Speaker 1: should be accountability for bad journal is. Um. But at

147
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,760
Speaker 1: the same time, it's like this this whole scale demonization.

148
00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,040
Speaker 1: You know, as you say, the quote unquote in air

149
00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,560
Speaker 1: quotes the media. Yeah, what's the media? I don't even

150
00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,720
Speaker 1: know what the media is? Um, you know, are you

151
00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,400
Speaker 1: gonna say that? You know, first of all, if you're

152
00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,840
Speaker 1: if you're saying media, it's it's I assume people mean

153
00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:24,480
Speaker 1: the news media, because media at large would be your show, Um,

154
00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:30,480
Speaker 1: reruns of Seinfeld, that's all media. Like, So don't okay,

155
00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:32,880
Speaker 1: just say the news alright, you want to say fake news?

156
00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,040
Speaker 1: You know, I can't stop people from saying that stuff. Um,

157
00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,920
Speaker 1: And I don't. I find it bothers him. But all

158
00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,600
Speaker 1: I could do to combat it is do my job

159
00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,880
Speaker 1: and keep doing it right and hopefully tell stories that

160
00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,520
Speaker 1: people UH find compelling and shed some light on on

161
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 1: some shadowy UH situations. It is true that it's not

162
00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,400
Speaker 1: some specific though, because I think when some people say

163
00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,600
Speaker 1: now fake news, they're thinking of like network news. Sometimes

164
00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,640
Speaker 1: they're thinking of opinion shows on the if they're on

165
00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:06,800
Speaker 1: the left, they're thinking of Sean Addity if they're on

166
00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,000
Speaker 1: the right, there Rachel Maddow and like, that's a very

167
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:15,160
Speaker 1: small microcosm of the media or the news media at large.

168
00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,800
Speaker 1: Go ahead, Karmen Well, I think it's funny people ask me.

169
00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,000
Speaker 1: They'll say to me, you know what, what news do

170
00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,559
Speaker 1: you follow? But they're not what they really are saying,

171
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:25,720
Speaker 1: what do you watch? And I'm thinking, if you're asking

172
00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,280
Speaker 1: me what to watch, then you're I'm not gonna be

173
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,160
Speaker 1: able to give you any idea of what's worthwhile In

174
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,680
Speaker 1: terms of being informed, You're not gonna get informed watching

175
00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,199
Speaker 1: uh CNN have talking heads go on and on about

176
00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,760
Speaker 1: the same issue. That's all day. You know what, You're

177
00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,760
Speaker 1: just the same way. You're not going to become a

178
00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,839
Speaker 1: world class athlete watching ESPN debate the same issue all

179
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,680
Speaker 1: of a day, you know, all day, every day. It

180
00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:56,600
Speaker 1: doesn't It's ridiculous. Sports have excuse me, politics have become sports. Yeah,

181
00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,240
Speaker 1: and and and the and news and whether whatever side

182
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,960
Speaker 1: you're on, if you're you know, find yourself on the left,

183
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,600
Speaker 1: the right, wherever it's it's you're just picking up teams

184
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,480
Speaker 1: of fantasy leagues for Capitol Hill. Now, yeah, I think

185
00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,680
Speaker 1: they've found with like the popularity of those shows like

186
00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,520
Speaker 1: Crossfire and Hannity and Combs and how well they do

187
00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:19,920
Speaker 1: in the ratings, it's like, before we even inform you

188
00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,680
Speaker 1: on an issue, we're gonna have to split screen debate

189
00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,000
Speaker 1: before you know what to think. They want the public

190
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,600
Speaker 1: to say I'm on the right or the left of

191
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,800
Speaker 1: this issue, but they don't even know what they're debating.

192
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,400
Speaker 1: And and that's a huge problem. I think that people

193
00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,400
Speaker 1: are uninformed and they're just they want to take a

194
00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:39,000
Speaker 1: side they want to be on. They want that passion. Yeah, yeah,

195
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,400
Speaker 1: but everybody wants to have that. It's that reaffirming what

196
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,720
Speaker 1: you already think. Uh. And that's and what's the point

197
00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,520
Speaker 1: of that, you know? Uh, just if people when people

198
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,360
Speaker 1: really ask me, how do how do I stay informed?

199
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,160
Speaker 1: I'll tell them to read the most vanilla down the

200
00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,840
Speaker 1: middle news. Uh they can. I'm like, look, just read

201
00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,240
Speaker 1: the wires and then and then try to get an

202
00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,280
Speaker 1: idea for yourself of what is going on in a

203
00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,680
Speaker 1: particular place at our particular time. Um. It's funny. I'll

204
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 1: have people come up to me and also say, you

205
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:11,959
Speaker 1: know what, I never hear anything about Afghanistan. I never

206
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,560
Speaker 1: see it in the news anymore. And I'm thinking to myself,

207
00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,439
Speaker 1: I got a Google News alert set up for Afghanistan.

208
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,240
Speaker 1: There are two hundred stories coming out of that country

209
00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,240
Speaker 1: every day. It's just there's you know, this whole idea

210
00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,040
Speaker 1: of it's not in the paper or it's not on

211
00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,560
Speaker 1: the front page. Like what's the front page? There's no

212
00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,560
Speaker 1: front page anymore. The front page what you decide? What

213
00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,200
Speaker 1: you what goes into your on your Facebook page, and

214
00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,040
Speaker 1: what goes into your Twitter whatever? Is it your your

215
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,400
Speaker 1: front pages. I don't mean to get metaphysical, but it's like,

216
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,040
Speaker 1: whatever is inside you, is that interests you, that's your

217
00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,160
Speaker 1: front page. You know. I, um, before we get into

218
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,640
Speaker 1: you know, doing um combat reporting on the ground and

219
00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,040
Speaker 1: in beds and all that. Um, what were you doing?

220
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,640
Speaker 1: But what kind of stories did you cover before all

221
00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,120
Speaker 1: of that? What was your experience like, well, you know,

222
00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,439
Speaker 1: before I started covering the war said Afghanistan and Iraq,

223
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:06,920
Speaker 1: I had my first experience covering conflict was in Haiti

224
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,800
Speaker 1: during the coup and two thousand and man. To this day,

225
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,280
Speaker 1: that is some of the worst stuff I've ever seen there.

226
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,200
Speaker 1: They were just you know, they're dropping bodies everywhere, and

227
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,840
Speaker 1: you know it's with signs of torture or just mutilation.

228
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,760
Speaker 1: It was terrible. And you know there were children riding

229
00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,160
Speaker 1: around on BMX bikes with a k S and the handlebars.

230
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:33,360
Speaker 1: You know, it was just it was madness. UM and Uh.

231
00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:38,120
Speaker 1: That was my first introduction into the deepest recesses of

232
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:44,480
Speaker 1: just how awful humanity could be. And uh um from there.

233
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,240
Speaker 1: Uh it was shortly thereafter that I started going to UH,

234
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,160
Speaker 1: Afghanistan and Iraq. But prior to that, I was I

235
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,880
Speaker 1: was based in uh Salpolo and then in Reodation Arrow,

236
00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,360
Speaker 1: and I was primarily doing Latin America's stuff. I uh

237
00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,240
Speaker 1: found a real passion for that, for that region and

238
00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,720
Speaker 1: stories there I found compelling, particularly at a time when

239
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,600
Speaker 1: this is the beginning of the global War on Terror

240
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,120
Speaker 1: and people weren't paying his, you know, close enough attention

241
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,160
Speaker 1: to that. They weren't paying attention to anything else except

242
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,920
Speaker 1: for what was going on in Afghanistan in Rock. So

243
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,840
Speaker 1: I kind of carved out my little space there, uh

244
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:28,280
Speaker 1: doing those stories until I can no longer uh resist

245
00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,720
Speaker 1: the siren song of covering those conflicts. I'd say that

246
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,640
Speaker 1: that's still true today as far as reporting from a

247
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:39,720
Speaker 1: national security standpoint, we don't hear enough about not in America. No,

248
00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,320
Speaker 1: And it's always the promise that was I remember that

249
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,880
Speaker 1: was that was George Bush's big promise before September eleven

250
00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,640
Speaker 1: in uh even in his campaign that that the US

251
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,560
Speaker 1: was going to pay closer attention to what was going

252
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,800
Speaker 1: on in Latin America. In fact, his first foreign trip

253
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,200
Speaker 1: shortly after he was elected was he went to Mexico

254
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,040
Speaker 1: and there was this great hope in the region that

255
00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,280
Speaker 1: finally there was gonna be somebody who was paying attention

256
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,000
Speaker 1: to what was going on in the hemisphere. And that

257
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:12,920
Speaker 1: changed real quick after eleven. Yeah, so maybe someday. And

258
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,080
Speaker 1: then what got you into on doing combat inbeds? Is

259
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,560
Speaker 1: that something that your newspaper pushed you into or were

260
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,560
Speaker 1: you interested in doing? You know, I just you know,

261
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,280
Speaker 1: it was one of those things where I I just, uh,

262
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:26,080
Speaker 1: maybe if I had given it more thought, I never

263
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,040
Speaker 1: would have done it. But I never never A lot

264
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,240
Speaker 1: of forethought is not my forte And uh, I just

265
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:33,880
Speaker 1: I just just got it into my head that I

266
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,000
Speaker 1: would give it a try because other people I had

267
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,200
Speaker 1: don't respect it, had done it and they told me

268
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,680
Speaker 1: how to do it. And uh, I remember the first

269
00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,960
Speaker 1: real in bed I had was in Iraq in two

270
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,000
Speaker 1: thousand five, and I was in northern Iraq and kirk

271
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,680
Speaker 1: Cook and that situation wasn't too bad at that time.

272
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,920
Speaker 1: And then we went a little further west into into

273
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:01,840
Speaker 1: some other smaller towns, and it was it was the

274
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,760
Speaker 1: wild West. It was really bad. Uh, there was a

275
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,680
Speaker 1: lot of h I was We're getting shot at all

276
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,680
Speaker 1: the time. In fact, the first time it had ever

277
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,360
Speaker 1: had an RPG fired in my direction, I was in

278
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,880
Speaker 1: a convoy of Humbies. This goes to show you how

279
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:18,800
Speaker 1: far back it was. We were in Humpies and and

280
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,440
Speaker 1: I was in the lead humby with the with the CEO,

281
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:26,880
Speaker 1: and a guy from down this narrow road pops out

282
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,520
Speaker 1: fires off an RPG. The thing skips right in front

283
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,000
Speaker 1: of the truck and bounces to the side, and then

284
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,840
Speaker 1: the explodes, and all of a sudden, you hear that,

285
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,240
Speaker 1: You hear the gun or go Yeah? They bolt the

286
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,280
Speaker 1: bolting down the side of this road, this narrow ass road,

287
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,960
Speaker 1: and there's cars parked on both sides, and the Humpbies

288
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,280
Speaker 1: barreling through, and the cars are going up on their sides,

289
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,040
Speaker 1: like off their axles, and they're chasing this guy down.

290
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,600
Speaker 1: And uh, we turned a corner and they we saw

291
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:57,040
Speaker 1: this vehicle with all four doors open, and these guys

292
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:58,480
Speaker 1: jump out on the truck and I'm like, that thing's

293
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,720
Speaker 1: gotta be booby trapped. This is my did bed. I'm like,

294
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:02,600
Speaker 1: I know that can't be right. These guys jump out

295
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,560
Speaker 1: of the jump out of the truck and go up

296
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,720
Speaker 1: to the vehicle. They find the launcher UH Russian sniper

297
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,960
Speaker 1: rifle and a video camera and then we took the

298
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,119
Speaker 1: video camera and the and the vehicle back to the

299
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,720
Speaker 1: to the cop and we play the video on the

300
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 1: camera and it was a video of the attack. It

301
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,240
Speaker 1: was back in the day. Yeah, you know, this is

302
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,200
Speaker 1: like pre YouTube, but they were using it in there

303
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,560
Speaker 1: and their propaganda videos, you know, So it was you

304
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,760
Speaker 1: see this, You just saw that. You saw our vehicle

305
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,000
Speaker 1: and you saw the trail of smoke and the and

306
00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:36,520
Speaker 1: the ordinance. Yeah, it was it was So that was

307
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,840
Speaker 1: my That was my first real close call. How does

308
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,159
Speaker 1: for people who like really don't understand, Like, could you

309
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,119
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about how that process works, Like

310
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,480
Speaker 1: how do you become an embedded journalist with the military.

311
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,800
Speaker 1: You know, the military in these wars had a very

312
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,960
Speaker 1: um fairly i'd say, a very well organized system whereby

313
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,760
Speaker 1: you would apply to you know, you go to the

314
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,080
Speaker 1: UH you know, you find out who the inbed coordinator is,

315
00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,320
Speaker 1: You go to that, you send your email with a

316
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,280
Speaker 1: request I want to go to this place and I

317
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 1: want to cover this aspect of what's going on there.

318
00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,680
Speaker 1: And then they would, you know, go through your application

319
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,359
Speaker 1: and they would either approve it or not. Usually I

320
00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 1: had never had one that wasn't approved, and UH, you

321
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,680
Speaker 1: would get linked up. Let's say you were if you're

322
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,399
Speaker 1: in um Afghanistan, you'd probably go to someplace like Bogram. First,

323
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,119
Speaker 1: from from Cobbo, you take a get a car to

324
00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:36,919
Speaker 1: to Bogram, go to the gate, they let you in

325
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,919
Speaker 1: with your ID and then they get you set up

326
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,520
Speaker 1: where they move you anywhere points east or south or

327
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:48,400
Speaker 1: wherever you're going. Um it's funny because UH, journalists are

328
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,040
Speaker 1: the lowest priority for moving personnel around an a war zone,

329
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,560
Speaker 1: and as well they should be. UM. It was a

330
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,879
Speaker 1: friend of mine once, a fellow journalist told me that

331
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:03,760
Speaker 1: he once got bumped off a flight heading into Jelalabad

332
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,520
Speaker 1: because there was a barista for the green bean coffee

333
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,560
Speaker 1: like that needed to get back to Jelalabad. And they're like,

334
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,439
Speaker 1: who do we take? The journalists makes the coffee. You know,

335
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,400
Speaker 1: the guy that gets is getting that seat every time.

336
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,399
Speaker 1: So yeah, the big a bump for barista, which I

337
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,000
Speaker 1: totally I get man. You know that's a priority. Um.

338
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, so sometimes the movement is slow, but you

339
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,240
Speaker 1: you get around. You know, I have been all over

340
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,080
Speaker 1: Afghanistan on military transport in places I would not have

341
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,879
Speaker 1: been able to go, um had it not been for

342
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,120
Speaker 1: hitching a ride with them. And you know, and that

343
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,120
Speaker 1: goes for UH convoys and on foot patrols as well.

344
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,120
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not gonna go wandering into remote parts

345
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,800
Speaker 1: of eastern Afghanistan on my own to never make it,

346
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,720
Speaker 1: you know, a tenth of the way there without getting

347
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,199
Speaker 1: my head lapped off. And so your first inbed for

348
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,840
Speaker 1: Afghanistan was that the Kunar Uh. No, I've been going

349
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 1: there for years and years earlier. I've been going The

350
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 1: first time I went to Afghanistan oh five, actually didn't

351
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,560
Speaker 1: do any inbeds. I was doing some some work in

352
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,960
Speaker 1: and around cobble um and travel. I went down to

353
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,080
Speaker 1: Kandahar without an inbed. It was a different time though,

354
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,359
Speaker 1: the security situation was better and you could actually I remember,

355
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,760
Speaker 1: I remember walking the streets of Kandahar. I was dressed

356
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,400
Speaker 1: in traditional local clothes, but I kept a little profile

357
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,520
Speaker 1: and I could do it. Um. But No, I started

358
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,840
Speaker 1: doing a lot of in beds in Afghanistan and oh

359
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:32,120
Speaker 1: nine when the Obama stre surge started to kick up,

360
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,200
Speaker 1: and uh, that's when I started doing it a lot

361
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,199
Speaker 1: there and uh there that at that period, I was

362
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,919
Speaker 1: doing a lot of in southern Afghanistan and Kandahar and

363
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,760
Speaker 1: then in Kunar Um And it wasn't until two thousand

364
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 1: and ten that's when I got hurt. Yeah. That was

365
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 1: a really hot area in two thousand ten, wasn't it.

366
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,120
Speaker 1: Yeah Yeah, I mean it's everything I hear from two

367
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 1: thousand ten. Uh, when I got hurt, and then I

368
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,919
Speaker 1: went back to that same area in two thousand eleven

369
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,520
Speaker 1: it was still hot, and then two thousand twelve and

370
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 1: went back to the exact same combat outposts where I

371
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 1: had gotten hurt, and the situation had deteriorated even more. Um,

372
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: you know, now it's that's all. That's all Taliban, Yeah,

373
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 1: and nicest territory. I was having drinks last night with

374
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 1: a friend of mine from college actually, but he was

375
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 1: military intelligence and uh he was in Kunar around that

376
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 1: same time frame and just telling me some stories about

377
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,200
Speaker 1: it and the terrain and how difficult it was to

378
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,920
Speaker 1: work over there. Yeah, Yeah, it was really difficult really

379
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:43,399
Speaker 1: steep mountains, high elevation, Uh, brutally hot in the summer,

380
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 1: bitterly cold in the winter. Um. Yeah, you always, you know,

381
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,440
Speaker 1: all the combat outposts were for some reason at the

382
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 1: bottom of these valleys where you're surrounded by mountains on

383
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 1: three sixty degrees. Someone, no one's ever been able to

384
00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 1: adequately explain to me, you know, how anyone could justify

385
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 1: that from a tactical standpoint. Greater military minds than I

386
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,639
Speaker 1: might have a reason, but I've no one's ever been

387
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,120
Speaker 1: able to give it to me. Um. It doesn't seem

388
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:11,880
Speaker 1: to make any sense to me. And you ask any

389
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 1: any soldier or servicemen why that is the case, and

390
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 1: they don't have an answer either. So I'm waiting for

391
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,360
Speaker 1: some general to tell me. Yeah, I mean I think

392
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 1: is there are cases in Vietnam too, or like the

393
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 1: FOB placement as far as where they were put was

394
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 1: just tactically unsound. Guys were getting bombarded constantly, constantly. That's

395
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,640
Speaker 1: the story of anybody's ever seen Rostreppo. It's that's that's it.

396
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,919
Speaker 1: You know, How do you how do you justify that?

397
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 1: I have no idea? Um? Is it just because he

398
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 1: can't put it on the top of a mountain, you know,

399
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: eleven thousand feet Okay, then what's it doing? What good

400
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: are you at the bottom? Are you just there to

401
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,880
Speaker 1: draw fire? That's what it seemed like. So can you

402
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: tell us about the unit you embedded with then at

403
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 1: that point? And um, what was it like integrating with

404
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: these young Joe's and you know, you're you, of course,

405
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 1: being a member of the liberal media coming in that

406
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,199
Speaker 1: was funny. Um. I remember at that time I was

407
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: let's say it was I was thirty six. Yeah, because

408
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: you remember there's that that line in the book where

409
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 1: the guy says, oh, you're two years younger than my dad. Yeah, exactly,

410
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 1: this guy's young punk is nineteen years old. He's like, yeah,

411
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's amazing you can hang with us.

412
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: And yeah, I was driving as of course. But like

413
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: you know what, none that politics never comes up. No,

414
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:39,120
Speaker 1: I understand, nobody ever brings that stuff up because irrelevant.

415
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 1: It's completely irrelevant. You know, those guys are all out

416
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 1: there to to get each other's backs and to make

417
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: sure that they can come home, and I'm out there

418
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: not to make to tell their story and not getting

419
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 1: their way and do anything that's gonna jeopardize their chances

420
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 1: of going home. That's it, you know, every and so

421
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 1: funny enough, I'd say nine percent of the time we

422
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 1: talked about sports and what's been on TV since they've

423
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: been gone. That's it. That's what you know that that's

424
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: never really it's never really been an issue about matters

425
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 1: in Washington because it's irrelevant, like you know, like why

426
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 1: they're there. I never I would never discuss that really

427
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 1: with a with a young soldier for a couple of reasons.

428
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: Just like I said, it's there's the irrelevancy. And the

429
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is, even if these guys, if

430
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: these one of these guys would spout off to me

431
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: about you know, whatever their political leanings are, some sergeant

432
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: major is going to eat their ass out for it.

433
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: It ends up in one of my stories. And you

434
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: and I know that, Like, what's the point to be

435
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: getting some you know, eighteen year old private in trouble

436
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: for some ship like that? You know, it doesn't it's it's, yeah,

437
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: I don't want to ruin this kid's life, you know. Yeah,

438
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: I look at it. I mean, like you said, I mean,

439
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 1: the guys on the ground are dealing with this very

440
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: pragmatic situation and this the high level politics, policy decisions

441
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,919
Speaker 1: being made thousands of miles away, just like, no one

442
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: gives a shit about that. No, And and also if

443
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: you're and I don't mean to disparage the young, but

444
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: I remember at nineteen, I didn't know what the hell

445
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 1: was going off in the world though, So why just

446
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 1: because they're in this corner of Afghanistan, you know, uh,

447
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: fighting this fight, Like what does that mean that they

448
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: under have a better idea of the geopolitical you know,

449
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: machinations and how they're they may or may not be

450
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: perceived as ponds in this great game? Like, no, man,

451
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: why would they know that stuff? Well? Did you? What

452
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: did you notice though? From those young men? I mean,

453
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: were any of them like well read or did they

454
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 1: U What I'm getting at is did they understand um

455
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: where they were? They understand the cultural environment they were in,

456
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: because I mean, going from being a nineteen year old

457
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: living in America with the land of hamburgers and French fries,

458
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: I mean that's a super culture shock going to a

459
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 1: place like these guys when they prepare for a deployment,

460
00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: I know that they are tasked with, uh learning things

461
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: about the culture. I know that they have training sessions

462
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: even that go as far as you know, what it's

463
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: like to sit down with a village elder. They have.

464
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: I know, they have these like practice sessions for what

465
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: it's like to for where they're going to be, and

466
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 1: that's part of their They're they're training their ramp up

467
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: to deployment, and you know, I can't speak to it specifically,

468
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: but I think it's like a year's worth of this

469
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: training as to you know, what their situation there where

470
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: they're going to be, um, what the kind of challenges

471
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: are gonna be facing, what the locals are like. And

472
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: they have like actors come in and do all this

473
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: stuff that teach them how to how to do these things.

474
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: So you know they're they're well prepared. It's not I

475
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 1: don't think it's you know the like in Vietnam where

476
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: you got eight weeks of basic and then they shipped

477
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: you off, ship you off to the jungle. You know. Yeah.

478
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: By two thousand ten, I mean I think on a

479
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 1: lot of the basis they were building up like um

480
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 1: mock towns like that mimicked Afghan villages, and yet as

481
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: you said, they'd have role players and things like that,

482
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: which is, you know, which is a lot more preparation

483
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: I think they were getting when they went into Vietnam, so, um,

484
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: you know, And and there's a difference in that, you know,

485
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 1: if we're comparing it to Vietnam as well, is that

486
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,719
Speaker 1: this is an all volunteer force. These are these are

487
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: people that actually want to be there. Um, when it's

488
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: getting time for deployment and they're picking who's gonna go

489
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: and who's gonna stay. I mean, these guys want to go,

490
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: you know, men and women want to be there. Um.

491
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: What what unit was? What's that? What unit was this?

492
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: I was with? Yeah, which will get? Which is I

493
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: think is the most deployed of both the Iraq and

494
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: Afghan wars. These guys and men and women that I

495
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: can't even tell you how many times they've been everywhere.

496
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: In fact that it was funny. Years later, two thousand

497
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: ten is when I got hurt and in the story,

498
00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: I'm injured alongside um, a young lieutenant named Derek's and

499
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: then in he gets redeployed back to Afghanistan and I

500
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 1: link up with him and we went and did another

501
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: inbed together in eastern Afghanistan, and it was funny because

502
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: he was a captain at that time, and he had

503
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: had a fairly uneventful deployment and he was they were

504
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: getting ready to leave in like less than a month,

505
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: so we're out on this mission. He and I are

506
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 1: standing on this road in in a remote part of

507
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 1: eastern Afghanistan and Nangah are a place called Ancient District,

508
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: which is now the de facto headquarters forrisis and in Afghanistan.

509
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: He and I were standing on the road. He had

510
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: spent nine months in country where nothing much had happened,

511
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: and uh, just down the road, a rocket hits the

512
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: ground and just blows up, you know, like a hundred

513
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: yards down the road and like blows our hair back

514
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: and we go scaring to the trucks. He's like, I

515
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: can't believe the first time I go out with you

516
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 1: and I almost get killed again. You're a missile magnet. Yeah, exactly.

517
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: What can you tell us a little bit about that

518
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: day when you got hurt? Because I mean, I you

519
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: actually got hit by an RPG. That's correct. We were

520
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: on a foot patrol in a remote village in eastern Afghanistan,

521
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: a few kilometers from the Pakistani border, and we were

522
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,959
Speaker 1: walking through this I call it a village, just a

523
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,719
Speaker 1: collection of stone mud homes, mud homes, and you can

524
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: hear the the sound of rockets from the next village.

525
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: There was an engagement with another unit over there. And

526
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: it's funny enough. We're we're making jokes. I was shooting

527
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: video at the time, and I was making jokes, and

528
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: the guys are making jokes because those marijuana growing everywhere.

529
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: And uh So when we were walking through the village,

530
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: we got immediately the vibe got really chilly. It was

531
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: the last day of Ramadan, and it was near sunset,

532
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: and the the locals were preparing for their fid feast.

533
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,719
Speaker 1: And here we are rolling through um you know, up

534
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: armored vehicles and dismounted on a patrol. Uh in retrospect,

535
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: this was a terrible idea, but there we were um

536
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: and I stopped to talk to a group of young

537
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: men sitting on the side of the road. And I

538
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: already had a hinky feeling about what was going on,

539
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: because as some of your listeners will will identify with this,

540
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: is that there were no children around. Usually when you

541
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: go into a village and the children around it, it's okay.

542
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: But when the children scatter you know something. They you know,

543
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: something's going on, right, no kids around. Everybody's giving us

544
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: the stink eye. And uh, I'm talking to these guys

545
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: on camera and I'm barely able to understand through the

546
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: interpreter what they're saying, because I just I just know

547
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: there's something, there's something wrong. And so I hear this

548
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: whooshing sound that I see these guys their eyes get

549
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: really big, and I turn around and about forty yards

550
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: down the road there's a guy shouldering as RPG launcher

551
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: and the fired the ordinance and was screaming right at me.

552
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: I mean, the tip was coming right at me, and

553
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: I could see the trail of smoke behind it, and

554
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: then it just clocked me in the side of the face,

555
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: straight up in the side of the head, didn't detonate,

556
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: and it hit the lieutenant, the lieutenant's otto in the

557
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: elbow and then clattered to the ground. Immediately as soon

558
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: as it hit me in the side of the head,

559
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: my right eye went black and I just heard this.

560
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: It was a concussion in my head. And I mean

561
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: not only not only did I have a concussion, but

562
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: it was reverberating in my in my head like a

563
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: like a gong and I went down to one knee

564
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: and I immediately put my hand over my eye and

565
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: I just just blood was pouring out, and I figured,

566
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: oh man, they just blew my eye out of my head.

567
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: I thought that, you know, my eye had popped out

568
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: and uh. And I just couldn't believe that I was

569
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: still alive at first, because when it came at me,

570
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: I saw the thing and I was frozen by panic.

571
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: And then just in those few moments, I had that

572
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: resignation like, oh funk, I'm done. This is it lights

573
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: out and when it and so when it hit me,

574
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: I figured, okay, this is this is I mean, you know,

575
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: going into the void. And I realized a few moments later,

576
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: oh wait, I'm still And you can if you see

577
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: the video that's that's on YouTube, you see you hear

578
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: somebody ask are you okay and responses no, obviously just

579
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 1: got shot in the head. Everybody was was just shocked.

580
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: Nobody could it wasn't every even anybody screaming. They're like holy,

581
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,719
Speaker 1: like how did that just happen? And then finally everyone

582
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: snapped out of it, and you could hear somebody on

583
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: the radio going rpg rpg, and they pulled me to

584
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: the side of the road. My cameras is still running

585
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: and so this, but you can't see me. Uh, and

586
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: so people are treating me and you can hear me

587
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: asking the medicay, do I still have my eye? And

588
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: he kept telling me, yeah, you still you still have it,

589
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: you still have it. I thought, this guy's bullshitting in

590
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: my eyes. Somebody, somebody go to the other side of

591
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: the road and pick up my eye if it's still there,

592
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: not that they're gonna be able to do anything with it.

593
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: And so I kept asking him and finally said, yeah, yeah,

594
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: it's fine, it's I can still see it. It's baby blue.

595
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: And I'm like, it's a nice thing to say, young man. Um.

596
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: So they they they put me in one of the

597
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: trucks and they took me just a little bit down

598
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: the road so that the so they can get a

599
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: knee back in and helicopter came in and picked myself

600
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: and lieutenants otto up and off I was to uh

601
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: eventually to Bogram, where I had my first surgery by

602
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: a very nice military ophthalmologist who just happened to be

603
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: there too, to to fix and save and ultimately save

604
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: the eye that I thought I was gonna I had

605
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: already lost. And of course, had that RPG gone off,

606
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: the it's a okay, so I'm going back into the vernacular.

607
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: Would have been a PG seven anti tank or rocket.

608
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: I believe if it had it gone off, both of

609
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: you guys would have been done. Of course, no, they

610
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: would have sent me home in matt box. Nothing left.

611
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: Maybe a couple of teeth and that's it. I would

612
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: speculate that one of two things happened. Either the guy

613
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: who shot it left a safety cap over the front

614
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: of the fuse, or when that rocket hit you, it

615
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 1: may have knocked the fuse loose because it has piece

616
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 1: of electric crystals in it, so when they get crushed,

617
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: the rocket explodes it that needs the actual warhead. UM,

618
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: So it may have knocked that loose when when it

619
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: hit you. Um. But at any rate, I mean, that's

620
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 1: pretty fucking amazing. It may not have had enough distance

621
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: to even arm too, because those things are designed not

622
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: to go off at a certain distance, so that if

623
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: you're shooting, if you're firing at something that's close. I

624
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: mean it was so close they could I could practically

625
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: see the white of the guy's eyes. He was right

626
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: down the road. So maybe I don't know. I'll never know,

627
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 1: and I you know, my my assertion is that I'm

628
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: alive by a trillion to one shot. You know, I

629
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: have a better better chance of winning the powerball twice

630
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: that to having what happened to me happened. So you

631
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: got evacuated to Bagram? And then what what was what

632
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 1: was it like trying to recover from this? That was

633
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: a pretty long hard road or yeah, it was made

634
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: more difficult by my own, um repeated acts of JACKASSIORI.

635
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: All this is documented in the book I should point

636
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: which is right. I don't want to give away too

637
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: much of the of the goods, but I had I

638
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: had a long, long haul. It took me eight months

639
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: in a total of four surgeries. I wasn't hospitalized the

640
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: whole time. Um. In fact, most of the time I was,

641
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: I was out. There was a period during which, after

642
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: my my first three major surgeries, I had to spend

643
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: a month um basically keeping my head down because I

644
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: had a surgery on my retina for reattachment and at

645
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: a special lens they were going to put my eye

646
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: that so I had to keep my head down all

647
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 1: the time. So I had this special massage chair where

648
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: I kept my head in a in a hole and

649
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 1: I just sleep with face down with my head down

650
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: all the time. So that's not really good for your

651
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: spirits or your neck. So that was that was a

652
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: real bummer. And I was living in New York just

653
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 1: to be uh close to the hospital where they were

654
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: treating me. So I had this apartment in Washington Heights

655
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: that I was put up in and I was mostly

656
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: just wallowing in my own uh pity. And I had

657
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: a series of personal setbacks at the time as well

658
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: that I'll let readers get into. So yeah, there was

659
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: There was a whole There was a whole situation with

660
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 1: that in which I was engaged to someone at the

661
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: time and everything just you know went sideways, and um,

662
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil too much of it, but yeah,

663
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: there was. It took me a long time two uh

664
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: you know, to recover, and then I felt that once

665
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: I was cleared to work, and that was in in

666
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: May of two thousand eleven, my doctor said, Okay, you're

667
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: allowed to go back to work. And what they meant

668
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 1: by go back to work was, you know, be a reporter.

669
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 1: You want to go sit the desk somewhere or whatever,

670
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 1: and I said, well, no, I'm gonna go back to Afghanistan.

671
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: And they, you know, I thought, this guy's I don't

672
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 1: know why we even fixed him do that. What do

673
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 1: we do? I'll get this guy's gonna screw up all

674
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 1: my beautiful handiwork. Um, but uh yeah, I went back

675
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: as soon as I was cleared to go back, and

676
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: May first, two thousand eleven, two weeks later, I was

677
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: back in Afghanistan. That's awesome, man. Before we get into

678
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: you know, going back, I'm I'm kind of curious what

679
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: was your family's reaction, because I think when someone joins

680
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 1: the military, their family is preparing for possibly the worst.

681
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: When you coome a journalist, even you know, a war

682
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: correspondent and all that type of stuff, I don't think

683
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: the reality would set in because well, like, let's be honest,

684
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: someone like Anderson Cooper has been in like crazy war zones.

685
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: But what happened to you doesn't happen to those guys. No, no,

686
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: um uh you know that was that was torture for

687
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: my folks. Absolutely, and then me saying I'm going to

688
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: go back. They didn't say don't do it, but they knew.

689
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: I think they knew that I had to just I

690
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: had to go. You know, I didn't want what happened

691
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: to me I dictate the rest of my life. I'm

692
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: well aware of the fact that when I die. Somewhere

693
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: in the first or second paragraph, there's been mentioned of

694
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: fact I got shut the head with RPG. But I'd

695
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 1: like to think that it could go be beyond that

696
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 1: um in some capacity. So UM. I just didn't want

697
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 1: that to be the soul definer of who I am.

698
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: And I thought the only way I could get past

699
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: it is if I just got past it and got

700
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: back on the horse. So I ended up going back,

701
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 1: and boy, I was scared to die for so scared.

702
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: As soon as the play touchdown in Cobble, when I,

703
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 1: you know, first went back, I remember the wheels touching down,

704
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, only Christ, what a huge mistake this is.

705
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: I got out of here immediately. I was just pouring sweat, like,

706
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: this is what the hell am I doing? There's no

707
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 1: sense to any of this. And uh. I ended up

708
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: staying on that trip one of the longest periods I've

709
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: ever been in the country consistently. I was there for

710
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: four months just and I was hopping around from inbed

711
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: to in bed. I went back to Konar, I went

712
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: all over the place and just you know, I found

713
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: my I don't know if I I didn't find peace,

714
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: but I found that. I just I knew that this

715
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 1: is something I'm one of the few things in which

716
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: I'm pretty good at doing. So I felt good to

717
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: be able to do it again. When did that fear

718
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: go away? If? Ever? Never? Never? Never? I was in

719
00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: a rock uh, covering the the f retake Mozle, and

720
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: I was embedded with Iraqi special forces. Uh. This is

721
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: in the height of the effort to come to take

722
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 1: it back in like March, and it was some of

723
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: the worst fighting I've ever seen, you know, you know,

724
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: just bodies everywhere, house to house, block to block. People

725
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: had been under living under ice a siege for months,

726
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: for years. They were streaming out carrying whatever they could

727
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 1: and and I was just scared to death all the time.

728
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: It was. It was terrible. Um. You know, there were

729
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: explosions that were just shake the ground beneath you. And

730
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 1: I remember at one point we were on top of

731
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: this like six story apartment building, um, just to get

732
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: a better vantage of what was going on and then

733
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 1: and the next block to see what the fighting was.

734
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: And I look around and there's all this black um

735
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: asphalt on the roof and it was from the explosions

736
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,479
Speaker 1: that blown it up six stories and it was landing

737
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: on rooftops. That's it was just insane. But yeah, I was.

738
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,439
Speaker 1: I was scared of death that whole time. I don't

739
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: think being scared is a bad thing. Being scared is

740
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 1: a good thing, because if you're not scared, you're you're

741
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 1: not taking the right precautions. Like I know people that

742
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: that cover conflict that seem to just and I don't

743
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: want to speak to anyone specifically or even in general,

744
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: but it just seems like there's some of the people

745
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: that have no fear. And having no fear is not

746
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: the same thing as being brave. Being brave is, in

747
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 1: my estimation, is like Okay, I'm I'm afraid, but I'm

748
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna work through that fear in a way

749
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: that is productive and and and and I'm going to

750
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: take what I consider to be calculated risks. People who

751
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 1: don't take calculated risks, who takes stupid risks, I don't

752
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: think that they're brave. I think they're just they're either

753
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: crazy or they're trying to get killed. Yeah, maybe that's

754
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 1: the same thing, kind of referring to a little bit

755
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: earlier about the freelancers who don't make any money. And

756
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 1: I mean, on one hand, I respect what they're trying

757
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 1: to accomplish, but on the other hand, it's like, damn, girl,

758
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: do you really need to go do that? Like you're

759
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 1: probably gonna die if you go there and do that.

760
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: So I had young freelancers asked me questions all the

761
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: time about you know, who want to do what I do,

762
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,399
Speaker 1: And they'll say, how do you do you know? Can

763
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: you give me advice? And I say, no, not at all.

764
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: I'm not going to it. It's not because I don't

765
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: want them to do it per se. But if they

766
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: get killed and after I tell them to do something,

767
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: or after they just spoke to me about it, that's

768
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: gonna be on me. I'm gonna carry that around like

769
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: a like a like an anvil for the rest of

770
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: my life. Um So, maybe I'm being selfish in that sense,

771
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: but I don't. I can't go out of my way

772
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: and to recommend anybody do that kind of work. Um,

773
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's I had

774
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: a friend of mine who went through that where a

775
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: young young person asked him for advice and he gave

776
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: it to him, and then that person ended up dying,

777
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: and you know he carries that around with them. I don't.

778
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: I can't do that. It's you and I. I I get

779
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: the sense we've criss crossed each other going to some

780
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: of the same places, but maybe kind of at the

781
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 1: same time. Actually, But um, I was wondering if you

782
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: have taken any from seeing these different conflicts in Afghanistan

783
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: and Iraq at different times and seeing uh, you know

784
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 1: you're getting that perspective. I just warned if you have

785
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: drawn any conclusions about modern warfare and in the modern

786
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: way of fighting or not fighting. Um, I guess that's

787
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: where I'm going with this. If if there's any like

788
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: big picture conclusions that you've drawn from warfare in the

789
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: twenty first century. Um. You know, there was just a

790
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: good piece in the What's the West Point, uh Military

791
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: CTC like modern warfare anyway, they just did a piece

792
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: about this about the the preparation for the next generations

793
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: of wars. Um. I think that the and again I

794
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: am not an expert Just because I spent a lot

795
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: of time around the military doesn't mean I know what

796
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: the hell I'm talking about. But I think there that

797
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: the US had a conventional force that was fighting an

798
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 1: unconventional war. And I think that uh, um, the military

799
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: is still struggling to figure out how to fight an

800
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: unconventional to fight unconventional warfare. Um. We haven't fought a

801
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: true uniform on uniform war uh since World War Two? Like,

802
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: how do you fight in the regular art? Like you know,

803
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: everyone in Afghanistan is a friendly and a foe. You

804
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 1: don't know who's who's who's who the same for a

805
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: rock and same in all these wars. Now that you

806
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: know it would be it would be really nice if

807
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: if vices would wear uniforms. I'd really appreciate that so

808
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: it could so could see who's a good guy and

809
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: who's a bad guy. Um, but that's just not the case.

810
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 1: And I don't know how to prepare to fight, uh

811
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: that kind of enemy unless everyone receives you know, special

812
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: operation force training. Can we make the whole conventional military

813
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: just be soft? Would that be possible? Can we just

814
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: have instead of having you know, just a select number

815
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: of of of high operator high speed individuals can that

816
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: would be the only way to do And I think

817
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: if they were all high speed, high high functioning high operators.

818
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 1: I know that's not possible, but that's probably the only

819
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: way to do it, right, Like, how do you how

820
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 1: do you do it? I have no idea. I think

821
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:47,399
Speaker 1: Special Operations Forces has not done such a great job

822
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: with unconventional warfare. I mean that they've done is really

823
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 1: perfected the direct action, uh counter terrors and aspects of

824
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: their mission. But I think we just in my opinion,

825
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,919
Speaker 1: I think we've kind of abiled to deliver on the

826
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: unconventional warfare aspect of it. And I would make the

827
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 1: point I think this is interesting that from an American perspective,

828
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: we would think, well, okay, we need to take our

829
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: soldiers and give them uh some sort of unconventional warfare training,

830
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: increase their their schooling and so forth. Um, but the

831
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: enemies were fighting, be it ISIS or the Taliban or

832
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: al Qaeda or whoever, they have pretty minimal training. It's

833
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: like they just go and do it well. So it's

834
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: a cultural issue. Here's the thing, and I call this,

835
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: I call this the kaisers. So say principle and what

836
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: do I mean by that? In the movie The Unusual

837
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 1: The Usual Suspects, when they're telling the story of how

838
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: Kaiser Sosa came to be Um, the story goes the

839
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: Kaiser So's a realized you don't need guns or money

840
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: or or numbers. You just need to have the will

841
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: to do what other people won't. And I used to

842
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 1: size the will to do with things that other people won't.

843
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: And the thing is we and I mean we, I say,

844
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: us forces, NATO forces can't get in the mud and

845
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: do the same things because we have and I know

846
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: this is this is probably some people will could true

847
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,720
Speaker 1: this as naive thinking, but I have spent enough time

848
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: downrange to have given this enough thought. You have to

849
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: maintain some semblance of oh, I hate using this word righteousness,

850
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: like he can't you know what I mean? Like, you know,

851
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: let's let's let's go back to the when these Soviets

852
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: were we're fighting in Afghanistan in uh in the eighties,

853
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 1: and they were dropping toy bombs for kids to pick

854
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: up because they knew that it will blow off their

855
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 1: arms and that would take their parents out of the fight.

856
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: We can't do that, We just can't. We can't. We can't.

857
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: We can't, and I can't give you a good enough

858
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: I can't give you a reason that is going to

859
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: convince everyone. I'm just gonna say you can't do it.

860
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: And that's the thing that they're willing to do. Ices

861
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 1: Al Qaeda, Taliban, whatever, whatever, the extremist group or or

862
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: militants you know, you're you're fighting. That's how they are

863
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 1: able to compete. And they also compete because there was

864
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 1: a story done years ago where they were comparing um

865
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: the amount of costs to send one U S soldier

866
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: to keep one U S soldier in theater for a

867
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 1: year as opposed to one Taliban soldier and for for

868
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: US soldiers like a million bucks a year, but for

869
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 1: a Taliban fighter it's about two and fifty bucks a year. Yeah,

870
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: And you know, these guys are running around in the

871
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:58,399
Speaker 1: mountains and flip flops and rusty a K s and all.

872
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: You could throw all the all the aerial bombardments, j

873
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: dams and whatnot at them, but they know where the

874
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 1: caves are in Afghanistan. You know, they call in an

875
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 1: air strike and they blow the ship out of some

876
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: hilltop and you're like, whoa, look at that. They just

877
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: lit that hill up, and then ten minutes later you're

878
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 1: looking around, You're like, I can't even tell where it

879
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 1: is they hit. You know, the old saying goes, you

880
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 1: know the problem with with with with UH, you know,

881
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 1: blowing stuff up in the Afghanistan as it looks exactly

882
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 1: the same afterwards as it did beforehand, Like, how do

883
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: you you know that's that's a huge challenge. Um, you

884
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: can't you can't even couldn't carpet bomb the place. You

885
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: can't carpet bomb your way to victory in Afghanistan and

886
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 1: with these Vietnam and yeah, you can't do it with

887
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 1: you can't do it in anywhere where you're dealing with

888
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: an ISIS or other extremist group because the more extreme

889
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: you get, the more extreme they get. So we need

890
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 1: to think when you say, you know, the long way

891
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: around back to this to your question is what do

892
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: we need to do in terms of UH to fight

893
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: these fights in the future. Maybe figure out what it

894
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: is we can do. And people are gonna hate me

895
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: for this, like maybe we gotta figure out what we're

896
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: gonna do off the battlefield. Did not be in that fight, Like,

897
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 1: we've got to start thinking about how we interact with

898
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 1: the rest of the world. Sure, I don't think people

899
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: will hate you for it. I mean, you, Jack co

900
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 1: authored the book The Iis Solution, and you guys talk

901
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: about that, that very thing about fighting the war on

902
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: social media and in the media in general, and that

903
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 1: you know, I remember Brandon made the comparison to how

904
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 1: smoking cigarettes is relatively uncool in American we have to

905
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 1: make terrorism uncool over there. Yeah, I mean that that

906
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 1: would involve quite a bit of social engineering. Um, maybe

907
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 1: more than we're prepared for, but I mean I think

908
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 1: that the point stands, of course. Yeah, and as long

909
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 1: as these you know, people live in poverty in some

910
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: parts of the world. Uh, you know, an insurgency that

911
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 1: comes by and promises a better life is going to

912
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 1: hold some sort of legitimacy in their eyes. So it's

913
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 1: it's definitely not easy to fight anyway you cut it.

914
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,240
Speaker 1: It's not easy to fight. And I think that, Um again,

915
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: I I get you know, I agree with what you said.

916
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 1: But the funny thing is you can say that a

917
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: lot better than I can in this current climate. Whereas

918
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: the journalist says that it seems like I'm I'm going

919
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: soft on you know, but you can get you can

920
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: get away with it better. And I'm glad that that

921
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: you that you say that, But yeah, there's has to

922
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 1: be and I don't think it's It could go beyond um,

923
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: the social media, and it can go beyond you know,

924
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: finding ways in which to no longer make isis and

925
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 1: enjoining these other groups a sexy alternative for people who

926
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 1: are you know, um, disaffected youth in the US and

927
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: in Europe, to to to want to go over there

928
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:04,240
Speaker 1: and join them. That would take a concerted effort by

929
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: our leaders across the world to be like, Okay, how

930
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: do we keep young people out of these situations? How

931
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: do we promote greater social stability at home? How do

932
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 1: we you know, that's a huge, huge ask and that

933
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 1: would take a great deal of coordination, um, And that

934
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,280
Speaker 1: would take a great deal of long term effort that

935
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 1: Um it's hard to sell to people, whereas going to

936
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: war um is an easier sell. People can understand it

937
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: and wrap them they can understand it. Right. But when

938
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: you're saying, like, you know, just let's let's look at

939
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:46,919
Speaker 1: what the the you know, President Trump's decision to pull

940
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:51,720
Speaker 1: troops out of Syria, Um, Uh, look, I hate seeing

941
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 1: more men and women in harm's way. And that situation

942
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 1: is you're you're fighting a multi front proxy war where

943
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: you one day you're allied with Turkey and the next

944
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: day you know, Turkey's back in Isis and there you know,

945
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,799
Speaker 1: I mean, the whole thing is just it's a it's

946
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: a it's a disaster of epic proportions that I have

947
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 1: never been able to adequately explain, either in my reporting

948
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 1: or even in conversation, because I don't fully understand it. Um.

949
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: But you know, I was when I saw what what

950
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: what Trump said in his decision he made, I immediately

951
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,280
Speaker 1: thought of that that clip from the end of Charlie

952
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: Wilson's War where he said, look, we ever, we do

953
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 1: the same thing every time we go in and we

954
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 1: change the world and then we leave. But then the

955
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 1: great Tom Hanks tlanging that he that he imitates of

956
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 1: Charlie Wilson, and he says, you know, but that ball

957
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 1: keeps on bouncing, and it does. Man, the ball keeps

958
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 1: on bouncing and we take off. And what's going to

959
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:56,359
Speaker 1: happen now? And then Syria, Um, it's only a matter

960
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: of time before you know, Turkey steps in and fights

961
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 1: the cards we leave the Curds to hang out to

962
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 1: dry again. People certainly invade if if, if the Assad

963
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: regime doesn't come back in and occupy that space, I

964
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 1: have no doubt absolutely, because they have historical claim to it.

965
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 1: They want that, they want that space, and they want

966
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: the Curds out of there, and they will go in there.

967
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,720
Speaker 1: You know, there's they're the second largest military and NATO.

968
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: They would love to go fangs out right across the

969
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 1: border and and and and take it to the Curds.

970
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 1: And the Curds would have you know, we rely on

971
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: the Curds. We relied heavily on the Curds and the

972
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 1: fight against uh of al Qaeda and rock and against ISIS.

973
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:42,280
Speaker 1: This time around, all they do is is trust, trust

974
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:43,879
Speaker 1: that the US is going to be there for them,

975
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,399
Speaker 1: and we keep letting them down. I think that they're

976
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: pragmatic enough at this point to realize that, you know,

977
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 1: we we can't do everything for them, or we're not

978
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: going to be there. Time has to do everything for them.

979
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: You know, these are hardy, self sustaining people, and they fight, yeah,

980
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: you know, they fight. They fight to the bitter end.

981
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 1: I think I think they're smart enough to let's say,

982
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: get their money's worth out of us. You know, we

983
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 1: we used them and they used us to, you know,

984
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 1: which is fine. But when I when I think of

985
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 1: the curds, I think of the curred civilians that I

986
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 1: know and people that are friends, and I think, I,

987
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 1: damn it, feel we're taking it to you know, we're

988
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: we're pulling the football away again. Yeah. Well, and the

989
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: real the real harm, from my my point of view,

990
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 1: is what you were referring to is the ball keeps

991
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: bouncing all right, right, are we gonna just have to

992
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: turn around and come right back, you know, like we

993
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 1: pulled that of a rack and then we had to

994
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 1: go back a few years later because of issis. It's like,

995
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: rather than bouncing back and forth, I'd rather have a

996
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 1: sustained engagement, you know, even if it's very small troop

997
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: numbers from, rather than just pulling up stakes and leaving entirely.

998
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is, uh, And this

999
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 1: is another good point that was actually made in that feel.

1000
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:00,359
Speaker 1: Let's okay, were in Syria now for seven years. That's

1001
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: seven years that a large portion of the population has

1002
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: not been going to school. That's seven years of ignorance. Uh.

1003
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: And nothing but violence and mayhem going on around them.

1004
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: Your family is dead, and your family is dead in

1005
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:21,280
Speaker 1: order to combat that, and this is a hard truth

1006
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 1: and a bitter pill to swallow. You can't just go

1007
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 1: in there and even maintain stability and build schools for

1008
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 1: seven years. You have to go in there and maintain stability,

1009
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 1: uh and and build schools for my estimation twenty one years.

1010
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 1: Because it doesn't take seven years to undo all those wrongs.

1011
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:42,799
Speaker 1: It's it takes it would take a generation and a

1012
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 1: half to undo all those wrongs. And that's the problem

1013
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: with Afghanistan. We've gone through I mean, you've gotten now

1014
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:51,360
Speaker 1: what forty years of people not having adequate education or

1015
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 1: reliable utilities and access to to to the outside world

1016
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:00,840
Speaker 1: in a in a meaningful way. It breeds fear and

1017
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:05,919
Speaker 1: ignorance and contempt and resentment. And you know, to undo that,

1018
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,320
Speaker 1: and this is gonna this is going to really piss

1019
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: people off. It would take a hundred years to overcome

1020
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: that in order for them to to to re establish

1021
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: even what they had during the sixties, when people were

1022
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 1: walking around cobble in miniskirts, you know, going to the

1023
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 1: malt shop. Yeah, the trauma induced upon the people of

1024
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:30,919
Speaker 1: Syria is something that's going to endure for the rest

1025
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 1: of our lifetimes. Easy, there's absolutely no question. And putting

1026
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 1: putting that state back together is nearly an impossible task.

1027
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:41,959
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that the government's going to try,

1028
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: the Syrian government is going to try, but the real

1029
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 1: problems haven't even manifested themselves yet. Because the war isn't over,

1030
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 1: you know, people have something to focus on. Yeah, yeah,

1031
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: I mean that's absolutely not to be underestimated. UM. And

1032
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: the other thing I want to ask you make sure

1033
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: we get to before before we run out of time,

1034
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 1: is UM. I want to ask you about UM a

1035
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 1: chapter of your book, and you mentioned, and I've noticed

1036
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 1: this as well, that there are a lot of journalists

1037
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 1: that focus on interviewing the generals, and they want to

1038
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 1: go and talk to the generals and get the general

1039
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: sound bites. And the problem is that a lot of

1040
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: times the generals just don't have a fucking clue what's

1041
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 1: going on. UM. And there's this real I noticed with

1042
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 1: a lot of journalists, especially the bigger ones, there's this

1043
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,440
Speaker 1: aversion to interviewing the n c O s and the

1044
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 1: enlisted men and like really and finding out really like

1045
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 1: the real deal, what's really going on? Well, I always

1046
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 1: I always had to butt heads with my with my

1047
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 1: editors about that because they're like, can you get somebody

1048
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: above a captain into any of your stories? And my

1049
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: answer is why they don't know what for? You know,

1050
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 1: why why would for They're good to talk to about

1051
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 1: policy and things like that, but not not tactics, right, So, um,

1052
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 1: you know, I would I would find my self having

1053
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: some conversation with a battalion or brigade commander and I'd

1054
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: throw that, I'd throw a token quote in there, but

1055
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: I didn't really give a ship what those guys had

1056
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 1: to say. But again, I found myself in the proximity

1057
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 1: of General Petreus, and I knew I had to do it.

1058
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: So I knew my editors wanted it to Mrs Broadwell. Yeah,

1059
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 1: and at the time nobody knew who she was. That

1060
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 1: situation was, which was funny. I just remember some of

1061
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 1: that young major saying to me, oh, yeah, she has

1062
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 1: special access. And I'd only learned later with that story

1063
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 1: came out, I had I had contacted my editors and

1064
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 1: and I and it was before we knew her name.

1065
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 1: I contacted editors and I was like, look, I'm looking

1066
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 1: at my notebook. I know exactly who that is because

1067
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: you know, Um but no, I I remember I had

1068
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: to spend all day shadowing uh General Petreus as he

1069
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 1: was touring a school that had been closed and reopened,

1070
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 1: and you know, there was a big dog and pony

1071
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 1: show around him and they had this commander's meeting and

1072
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 1: this is an RC South store and we're in um

1073
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 1: um Zari district in in uh In Kandahar, and I

1074
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: remember being were at fabsa sit down. All the commanders

1075
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 1: came in. Everyone's there kissing the ring. They treat the

1076
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: guy like his god damn Elvis. Everybody's like all over

1077
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 1: the dude. And I just never I you know, my

1078
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 1: my first my first reaction to authorities to just you know,

1079
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to be I don't want

1080
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 1: any part of that. That doesn't really do it for me. Um,

1081
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 1: but you know how you noted how like his entourage

1082
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 1: have all this like glazed overlook talking about his visionary leadership,

1083
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 1: and yeah, I'm thinking, oh my god, this is how

1084
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: they talk about the Ayatola and wrong like something. You know,

1085
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 1: they were just they were in awe and uh and

1086
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 1: so I remember we're sitting down and there everyone's giving

1087
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 1: their status report from their different you know, from corners

1088
01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 1: of RC South, and everyone's just giving glowing reports about

1089
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 1: how well they're doing and they're doing this and that,

1090
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 1: and we've gotten these killed these dudes and captured these people,

1091
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 1: and I'm not allowed to write about any of this.

1092
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 1: I'm just sitting there with my notebook clothes and thinking,

1093
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 1: you know, it's like two hours of listening to this ship,

1094
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, is this so? I mean, if we're

1095
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 1: doing this well, can we all go home? Is this over? Okay,

1096
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 1: I'm mission accomplished. I guess let's let's get out of here. Uh.

1097
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 1: So then I get my fifteen minutes with with General Petreus,

1098
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 1: and I just proceed to completely botch the entire interview

1099
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 1: because the guy speaks in these really long, um, very

1100
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: uh orchestrated answers, and I remember, like the first I

1101
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 1: had fifteen minutes and the first answer took like eight minutes,

1102
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 1: and it was just you know, everything I had heard

1103
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 1: him saying countless television interviews, and I'm like, God, damn it,

1104
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 1: this guy is you know, he's he's got me he's

1105
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 1: got me worked under, and I didn't really give much

1106
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: of shit about the story anyway, so I try to

1107
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 1: throw in some other questions and finally my fifteen minutes

1108
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 1: is but I'm like, oh my god, this is terrible.

1109
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 1: It's I gonna go right up this shitty story. One

1110
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 1: of the things I did like about that that movie

1111
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 1: War Machine, which is a parody of you know, General

1112
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 1: General McCrystal, is uh, it really brings forward the homo

1113
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 1: erotica of the general's staff. Yeah, there's there's a lot

1114
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 1: of truth to that. Oh absolutely, It's hysterical. Those guys, um, yeah,

1115
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:25,439
Speaker 1: they just they could not get enough for the guy.

1116
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: And this is right before he was about to make

1117
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 1: his yeah, his his move into the CIA director position.

1118
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 1: I have a I have an uncle Dave's story also,

1119
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 1: and I don't know if I ever told this, but

1120
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 1: I was a helper for Columbia University when I was

1121
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:47,280
Speaker 1: going to school on Veteran's Day, um, escorting a Medal

1122
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 1: of Honor recipient around from World War Two. He slew

1123
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 1: like twelve Nazis in the Battle of the Buil like

1124
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 1: badass dude. Um. But anyway, Um, Dave Petreus was there.

1125
01:02:57,040 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: He was the director of the CIA at the time,

1126
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 1: and I just remember it because I was he got

1127
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:07,080
Speaker 1: separated from his own security detachment, his CIA people, and

1128
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 1: they were like way at the end of the parade

1129
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 1: and Petreus was way at the front, and I was

1130
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 1: pouring coffee for for Petreus and his wife Holly, and

1131
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 1: like handed it to him, and I was like, this

1132
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 1: guy is the current director of the CIA, and there's

1133
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 1: not a single security guy around, Like, this is fucking insane.

1134
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 1: But he was. He was cool. You know, he's a

1135
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 1: nice guy. You know, nothing bad to say about him.

1136
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:34,640
Speaker 1: I was just a little surreal interlude right there. Yeah, um,

1137
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:36,520
Speaker 1: so yeah, that was That was probably the last time

1138
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 1: ever ever spoke to Now I spoke to another I

1139
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: remember speaking to a soft general I can't remember who

1140
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 1: was now a couple of years later. Um, but again,

1141
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 1: I never get anything out of those interviews. Um, they

1142
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 1: give you a limited amount of time, and you know

1143
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 1: they're there, you've got their their whole entrage me mugging

1144
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 1: you the whole time about what you're asking, and you

1145
01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 1: know they're only going to tell you what they want

1146
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 1: to tell you. Anyway. Um, when these guys are all

1147
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 1: very career minded. Yeah, I really speak to anyone above

1148
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 1: the captain, just because you know when they when they

1149
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:11,520
Speaker 1: get to major, they started they start thinking about, okay,

1150
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 1: what if if certain majors are like, Okay, I'm either

1151
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 1: I'm topped out of it as a major or I'm

1152
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna go and you know, I'm gonna I'm

1153
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 1: gonna go for the brass ring, and they're there's there

1154
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:24,960
Speaker 1: are two different kinds of majors, and the majors I

1155
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:26,800
Speaker 1: like are the ones where you like, you know, they

1156
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 1: they speak truth to power and they'll they'll tell you

1157
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 1: all kinds of ship um. But otherwise, yeah, I just

1158
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 1: don't get anything out of those guys. I every time

1159
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 1: there's a new general elected, not elected, but appointed to

1160
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 1: be you know, the commander of so Calm or Jay

1161
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,600
Speaker 1: Soccer or whatever the hell it is, these like cringe

1162
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 1: worthy articles without fail appear in the mainstream media. Shadowy

1163
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 1: general takes new appointment and it's like this like glowing

1164
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:56,720
Speaker 1: article about how shadowy. Like I remember one of those

1165
01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 1: shadowy stories was about General Votel, who, like I was

1166
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 1: Facebook friends with and he's like there's his photo. He

1167
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 1: was my commander and range of regiment. But anyway, there's

1168
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 1: his like uh Facebook pictures like him wearing like one

1169
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 1: of those like Christmas sweaters, like him and his wife.

1170
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:16,960
Speaker 1: And here's like Newsweek or something shadowy spec ops General.

1171
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:20,480
Speaker 1: What the hell? What do you think in shadowy about

1172
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 1: General Hotel? Exactly? I mean, a smart guy, as I

1173
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 1: understand it, But these are like I when I read

1174
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 1: these articles, I get douche chills. They write them for

1175
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 1: the CIA directors also shadowy John Brennan, Like, oh my god, really,

1176
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 1: if they were so shadowy, you wouldn't know their names.

1177
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,720
Speaker 1: Those those are the shadowy dudes, That's what I'm saying,

1178
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 1: shadowy General appointed to suit come Like what if the funk?

1179
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:51,680
Speaker 1: Am I reading? But yeah, I mean I don't know

1180
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 1: if they're like trading those like it's a trade for

1181
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 1: access or something like that, Like it's like this obligation, like,

1182
01:05:57,560 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 1: you know, the same as the general staff. Like these

1183
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 1: journals just have a love for the General, you know, well, yeah,

1184
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:07,560
Speaker 1: they'd become their starstruck as well. You know, I think

1185
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 1: that they see that as being close to the to

1186
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: the you know, the power teat and they want to

1187
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 1: suck on it. Just like everybody else does. Um, and

1188
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 1: I never just I just never felt that way. I

1189
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:23,320
Speaker 1: probably would be a lot more successful in my career

1190
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 1: if I had been. If our power teat hungry, no question,

1191
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 1: you gotta get down on your knee pads. Yeah, exactly,

1192
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:34,480
Speaker 1: well I we would be definitely remiss if we didn't ask, uh,

1193
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 1: you know, what are you working on today? What are

1194
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 1: we're any projects? Anymore? Books? You're working on? Yes, a

1195
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 1: few things I'm working on. One of the things I'm

1196
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:47,200
Speaker 1: working on is a that's gonna sound crazy, but your

1197
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:51,320
Speaker 1: your your listeners will appreciate this. So last year I

1198
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 1: was working with a really good photographer, a guy named

1199
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 1: mission Albandi, and and he and I both ride motorcycles.

1200
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:00,520
Speaker 1: It comes as no surprise that people that that cover

1201
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 1: conflict tend to like to ride motorcycles. So we were

1202
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 1: covering the war in Mosl and um uh we uh

1203
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:13,960
Speaker 1: came across this really great old Russian motorcycle called the

1204
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 1: Ural and it has the it's a bike with a sidecar.

1205
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:18,959
Speaker 1: So we got it in our head that we would

1206
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 1: buy this bike have it fixed up, and then we

1207
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 1: rode it around northern Iraq and wrote a story about it.

1208
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:27,439
Speaker 1: For motorcyclists. We told the story of what was going

1209
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:29,440
Speaker 1: on in a rock at that time and in that

1210
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 1: place through the bike. It was our it was our

1211
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 1: goal to try to figure out how to how to

1212
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:37,400
Speaker 1: tell and present an original angle on a story that

1213
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 1: people already were tuning out. So we told this story

1214
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 1: about you know. And the way we told the story

1215
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:45,280
Speaker 1: through the bike was the people we came across, like

1216
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 1: the guy who owned it, um had you know, been

1217
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 1: living under siege for all these years. The bike had

1218
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:52,520
Speaker 1: bullet holes in it and the gas tank had been

1219
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:55,000
Speaker 1: crushed because a mortar it hit his a wall in

1220
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 1: his home and it fell on the concrete, fell on

1221
01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:00,680
Speaker 1: the bike. So we bought it from this guy, and

1222
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 1: then we had it fixed by a mechanic who had

1223
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 1: been tasked with when isis was there of fixing their bikes. Um,

1224
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 1: you know in an Iraqi mechanic can fix it. Yeah, yeah,

1225
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:16,920
Speaker 1: in Mosle, so you know. And then we had an

1226
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:21,679
Speaker 1: Iraqi policeman who had actually lost an eye who also

1227
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 1: rode bikes help us get it out because we didn't

1228
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 1: have the right paperwork. Obviously didn't have plates on it,

1229
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:26,840
Speaker 1: so we had to go through all these checkpoints, so

1230
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 1: we had to bribe our way through that. So we

1231
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 1: you know, we told the story of what was going on,

1232
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:36,080
Speaker 1: like I said, through the bike and trying to reach

1233
01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 1: a different audience and and tell the same story but

1234
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:41,160
Speaker 1: in a new way. We got it in our heads

1235
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 1: that this is something that we want to do again

1236
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:47,640
Speaker 1: and um potentially turn it into a series, either for

1237
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:50,719
Speaker 1: streaming or for a network. And so we're putting together

1238
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 1: a concept of uh trying to to do it as

1239
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:56,800
Speaker 1: a as a as a potential series where we'd ride

1240
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:01,560
Speaker 1: in different places where we had previously worked Afghanistan, Raw, etcetera, etcetera.

1241
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 1: That's pretty cool. Yeah, that's we're Yeah, people are going

1242
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:08,599
Speaker 1: to dig that, man, I think so. Yeah. So once again,

1243
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:12,080
Speaker 1: I mean, we've covered a lot in the past hour plus,

1244
01:09:12,120 --> 01:09:14,719
Speaker 1: but a lot more is covered in the book itself,

1245
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:17,760
Speaker 1: so people should pick it up. It's Blindsided by the Taliban,

1246
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:22,320
Speaker 1: a journalist story of war, trauma, love and loss by

1247
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:26,599
Speaker 1: Carmen Genteel on sky Horse Publishing. UH. Carmen Genteel dot

1248
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:30,040
Speaker 1: com is the website at Carmen Genteel on Twitter. This

1249
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:31,760
Speaker 1: has been awesome, man, I mean I think it's an

1250
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:35,320
Speaker 1: excellent story, And I think it's just a story of perseverance,

1251
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:38,559
Speaker 1: the fact that you wanted to keep doing what you

1252
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:41,519
Speaker 1: were doing after going through the horror and and having

1253
01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:45,519
Speaker 1: to go through like a crazy period of recuperating from

1254
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:48,160
Speaker 1: and you know, I think you even talking in the

1255
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:51,640
Speaker 1: book about dealing with opiate addiction, which a lot of

1256
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 1: people are dealing with, a lot of veterans, a lot

1257
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 1: of guys who get hurt, I mean the extremely addictive

1258
01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:03,519
Speaker 1: pain pills. Yeah, yeah, I funny enough, in my in

1259
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:07,720
Speaker 1: my wild youth, I had I had indulged in other

1260
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 1: sorts of opiates that they don't they don't come and pillform.

1261
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:14,720
Speaker 1: So I when I when I got the the oxy

1262
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 1: to uh, to alleviate the pain I was suffering from

1263
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:21,400
Speaker 1: from from my injury, I was like, this stuff's weak,

1264
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:26,720
Speaker 1: you know, right, But I was keenly aware of how

1265
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:30,599
Speaker 1: addictive it is and what a problem it is obviously, um,

1266
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:33,160
Speaker 1: and how it can lead to worst things, the worst

1267
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:34,519
Speaker 1: the kind of things that I used to do when

1268
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:37,120
Speaker 1: I was younger, um that I've since long given up.

1269
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:41,800
Speaker 1: I don't even drink anymore. I'm super boring, so uh yeah,

1270
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:46,120
Speaker 1: it's um. I hope people give it a chance. It's

1271
01:10:46,160 --> 01:10:48,680
Speaker 1: not definitely not like I I say, it's not a

1272
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:50,840
Speaker 1: doom and gloom war book. I don't think it's a

1273
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:54,840
Speaker 1: book even. Uh that I would say is about war

1274
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:58,640
Speaker 1: per se. It's about the difficulties that we all in

1275
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:01,640
Speaker 1: life face at one point or another. Life kicks us

1276
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:05,679
Speaker 1: all in the ass and has us down many different ways. Um,

1277
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 1: and it's my way of dealing with it. Was often

1278
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:11,880
Speaker 1: with with humor. I have a very dark sense of

1279
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 1: humor and self deprecating sense of humor that helped me

1280
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:19,160
Speaker 1: get through some of the really hard times. And I

1281
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:21,760
Speaker 1: hope that maybe some people will enjoy that and get

1282
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:24,600
Speaker 1: something out of it as well. Excellent man, Thank you

1283
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 1: so much, Farman. Thanks for having me appreciate it. Guys. Yeah,

1284
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:30,760
Speaker 1: we'll do it against sometime. Thank you, absolutely. I'd love that. Alright, great, Yeah,

1285
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:32,400
Speaker 1: let us know when that next project is out and

1286
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:35,720
Speaker 1: we'll do it. Oh cool man, we'll do all right.

1287
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 1: Take care a dude. That was I have to say,

1288
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 1: an excellent interview. I really appreciated talking with Carmen. And uh, yeah,

1289
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:47,599
Speaker 1: I haven't read the book in its entirety. It makes

1290
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:50,280
Speaker 1: me want to because you know, I skimmed through it

1291
01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:52,280
Speaker 1: and we've had it for a while, but there's just

1292
01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:55,200
Speaker 1: so much there and I do think it's one of

1293
01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:57,760
Speaker 1: those stories he said that you can relate to, you know,

1294
01:11:57,800 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 1: whatever you've gone through gone through in your life. And

1295
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:02,320
Speaker 1: also just looking at the guy, I mean, he's his

1296
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:06,800
Speaker 1: other eyes no longer functioning, really, And I've never had

1297
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 1: to experience anything remotely like that. So it's just sometimes

1298
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:12,479
Speaker 1: you need to have those examples of like, your life

1299
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:16,479
Speaker 1: is not so bad. Yeah, that's that's for sure. I mean, well,

1300
01:12:16,479 --> 01:12:20,679
Speaker 1: we've had a other dude with a pirate patch, Dan Crenshaw.

1301
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:24,000
Speaker 1: He's been on the show, Ivan Castro, Ivan Castro, and

1302
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:26,519
Speaker 1: then we had Castro has no eyes. I mean I

1303
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:29,479
Speaker 1: met him in person and Ivan Castro's completely behind. Where

1304
01:12:29,560 --> 01:12:32,920
Speaker 1: is the book we have? Oh here it is. This

1305
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:35,720
Speaker 1: is a good one too, Andy Grant, you remember him,

1306
01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:39,040
Speaker 1: and he had he had the tattoo on his leg.

1307
01:12:39,200 --> 01:12:42,280
Speaker 1: It says you'll never walk again. It said you'll never

1308
01:12:42,400 --> 01:12:45,120
Speaker 1: walk alone alone because it was it was a motto

1309
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 1: of the soccer team he got like. And then when

1310
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:49,160
Speaker 1: they cut off it, they had to amputate his leg

1311
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:52,280
Speaker 1: and it became and then because it cut off the

1312
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:55,959
Speaker 1: end of this tattoo. It said you'll never walk full stop,

1313
01:12:56,080 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 1: which is so I mean the whole thing, because I

1314
01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:00,679
Speaker 1: remember when we got you know, we saw the title

1315
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:02,839
Speaker 1: of the book. It's like, oh, it's an obvious title.

1316
01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:06,439
Speaker 1: You would never think that it's related to an actual tattoo.

1317
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:08,439
Speaker 1: You would think someone just said to him you'll never

1318
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:10,320
Speaker 1: walk again. But but I mean, go back and listen

1319
01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:13,120
Speaker 1: to that episode. But I mean, just spoiler alert, he

1320
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:16,320
Speaker 1: did walk again. I mean he's participates in like sports

1321
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:19,360
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, just doing I think, breaking records

1322
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:22,799
Speaker 1: and stuff. But I'm actually glad you mentioned the opiate

1323
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:24,960
Speaker 1: thing because I didn't. I wasn't even thinking of it.

1324
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:27,880
Speaker 1: I'm always i you're probably the same way as I'm

1325
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:30,360
Speaker 1: doing just things in my regular life. I'm always thinking

1326
01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:32,640
Speaker 1: of like how it could relate to this show. And

1327
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:36,719
Speaker 1: I saw that um documentary on Netflix called A Leaf

1328
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:39,040
Speaker 1: of Faith about creat um. I don't know if you're

1329
01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:41,720
Speaker 1: familiar with the whole thing, but but creatum is being

1330
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:45,639
Speaker 1: used as like to treat um opiate addiction. And it's

1331
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:48,639
Speaker 1: not even really a drug. It's I mean technically yeah,

1332
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:50,160
Speaker 1: but you don't get high off of it. You know,

1333
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:52,960
Speaker 1: it's almost like taking caffeine or something, but apparently it's

1334
01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 1: helping people. The funny things. I was just in Florida.

1335
01:13:55,080 --> 01:13:57,160
Speaker 1: I was in like the del Rey Beach area, which

1336
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:00,160
Speaker 1: is the rehab capital of the world. And uh, I

1337
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 1: saw all these Kabba bars, which is apparently create him

1338
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:05,160
Speaker 1: in a drink and people drink it. You see just

1339
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:08,080
Speaker 1: everywhere you go. And some people go and they say

1340
01:14:08,120 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 1: it's relaxing, but other people really are an opious and

1341
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:12,760
Speaker 1: this is something they're using and that that helps, like

1342
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:17,280
Speaker 1: wean people off of opiates apparently so so in the documentary,

1343
01:14:17,760 --> 01:14:20,360
Speaker 1: there was a lot of coverage of different things, including

1344
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:25,000
Speaker 1: veterans with PTSD who who got hooked on opiates that

1345
01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:28,240
Speaker 1: you know, this has helped them tremendously. And there were

1346
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:31,559
Speaker 1: groups covered in the documentary of like one guy who

1347
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:34,559
Speaker 1: was a veteran who had anger issues at PTSD and

1348
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:38,080
Speaker 1: all this stuff and he is using creative to treat

1349
01:14:38,120 --> 01:14:41,479
Speaker 1: his addiction and helping other veterans. And I remember I

1350
01:14:42,080 --> 01:14:43,760
Speaker 1: forgot about it because this is before my trip to

1351
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:44,920
Speaker 1: flo it I was like, I gotta get this guy

1352
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:47,720
Speaker 1: on the podcast. So now I'm reminded and I will

1353
01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:51,040
Speaker 1: try to get him maybe in January February, UM, but

1354
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 1: yet combat veteran, and he's just a huge advocate for

1355
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:58,400
Speaker 1: creative as a lot of people are UM. And And

1356
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:00,240
Speaker 1: it's a weird thing because right now it's le goal.

1357
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:02,519
Speaker 1: I think in just about all states. I've even driven

1358
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:05,439
Speaker 1: by gas stations and stuff where it's like we sell

1359
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:10,560
Speaker 1: cretum here and UM. There's like a few fringe lawmakers

1360
01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 1: that are trying to fight create them and make it

1361
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 1: illegal and there doesn't seem to be any good reason why.

1362
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:18,680
Speaker 1: I mean, like you guys will have to see the

1363
01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:21,120
Speaker 1: documentary it's called The Leaf of Faith. But like there's

1364
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:24,000
Speaker 1: one kid who jumped off a bridge to his death

1365
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:26,639
Speaker 1: and his parents blame create um. But then you look

1366
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:28,679
Speaker 1: further into the story and he was on all different

1367
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:31,400
Speaker 1: types of things, had a history of depression, and it

1368
01:15:31,479 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 1: seems like create um very likely had absolutely nothing to

1369
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:37,639
Speaker 1: do with this kid killing himself. But you know, there's

1370
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:40,360
Speaker 1: always these lobbyists and and even the parents on some

1371
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:43,360
Speaker 1: level that they need to point to the finger at

1372
01:15:43,439 --> 01:15:48,000
Speaker 1: someone who or something that caused their family member to

1373
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:51,479
Speaker 1: do that. There's always these like busybody politicians and you

1374
01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:56,320
Speaker 1: see them like and sometimes like police organizations also like,

1375
01:15:56,320 --> 01:15:58,439
Speaker 1: oh my god, there's this new drop that kids are

1376
01:15:58,479 --> 01:16:00,360
Speaker 1: on and they do like a big news story on it.

1377
01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:02,559
Speaker 1: I was like, Man, no kids ever heard of this

1378
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:05,840
Speaker 1: fucking bullshit until you did this stupid news story about it.

1379
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:08,320
Speaker 1: But and then that's the thing. This creatum thing gets

1380
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:11,920
Speaker 1: lumped in with like bath salts and you know these things.

1381
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:14,720
Speaker 1: But bath salts really was fucking crazy. I mean, there

1382
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:17,960
Speaker 1: were people out there who were like, you know, uh,

1383
01:16:18,960 --> 01:16:23,840
Speaker 1: basically they were like doing things to themselves. It's when

1384
01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:26,439
Speaker 1: you hear about LSD users cutting themselves with glass and

1385
01:16:26,479 --> 01:16:28,839
Speaker 1: like jumping off others. I think bath salts were causing

1386
01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:31,920
Speaker 1: that same type of reaction. There's there doesn't seem to be,

1387
01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:35,160
Speaker 1: at least from this documentary, any of that with creatum

1388
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:38,040
Speaker 1: and UH. I think would be an interesting topic. I mean,

1389
01:16:38,040 --> 01:16:43,200
Speaker 1: we've talked about UH veterans healing from PTSD with ecstasy

1390
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:45,640
Speaker 1: with M D m A. Remember we had the New

1391
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:48,680
Speaker 1: York Times writer on. So I think it'd be an

1392
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:51,480
Speaker 1: interesting thing to cover. And it's a Mark Bell documentary.

1393
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:53,960
Speaker 1: If you guys have seen bigger, faster, stronger, that's Mark

1394
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:58,000
Speaker 1: Bell or prescription thugs or trophy kids. I've seen them all.

1395
01:16:58,040 --> 01:17:00,600
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of his. Does great documentary. I

1396
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:03,280
Speaker 1: have to watch those what's that series on Netflix about

1397
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:06,840
Speaker 1: financial crime? I can't remember the title, but it's good.

1398
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:09,599
Speaker 1: Every episode is about like high finance people getting into

1399
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:13,960
Speaker 1: shipload of trouble. Okay, yeah with with Mark Brabella. Actually

1400
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:17,920
Speaker 1: I really appreciate his um honesty when he does this documentary.

1401
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:21,440
Speaker 1: Like while he did Prescription Thugs, which was about opioid

1402
01:17:21,439 --> 01:17:24,840
Speaker 1: addiction and all this stuff. Halfway into the movie, he's like,

1403
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:27,120
Speaker 1: all right, I've been telling you about all these terrible

1404
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:29,920
Speaker 1: things with opioids, people buying it on Craig's on Craigslist,

1405
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:33,000
Speaker 1: and he's like meeting with Congressman to get it off Craigslist,

1406
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:35,439
Speaker 1: and he's like, I have to tell you something. I

1407
01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 1: currently in addicted to opioids and like goes into it

1408
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:41,040
Speaker 1: and and how he developed that. He got into a

1409
01:17:41,080 --> 01:17:45,200
Speaker 1: car accident um while filming the documentary, I think while

1410
01:17:45,200 --> 01:17:49,160
Speaker 1: like while high driving around and I just appreciate the

1411
01:17:49,200 --> 01:17:51,439
Speaker 1: honesty of it. So yeah, it's I probably have a

1412
01:17:51,520 --> 01:17:53,479
Speaker 1: note in my phone somewhere while I was watching the

1413
01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:55,280
Speaker 1: movie with the guy's name where I was like, get

1414
01:17:55,280 --> 01:17:58,040
Speaker 1: this guy on the talk Creative so hopefully we will

1415
01:17:58,160 --> 01:18:00,920
Speaker 1: um anyway with what's going on at this site. I

1416
01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:03,360
Speaker 1: wanted to mention that Alex Hounds has a new article

1417
01:18:03,439 --> 01:18:07,200
Speaker 1: out titled cop that hit outside during park Parkland shooting

1418
01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:11,599
Speaker 1: school shooting did nothing wrong federal judge rules, and Alex

1419
01:18:11,640 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 1: basically made the point that yeah, legally this guy may

1420
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:17,200
Speaker 1: not have done anything wrong, but morally he definitely did

1421
01:18:17,240 --> 01:18:20,640
Speaker 1: something wrong and people's kids lives were lost because of

1422
01:18:20,680 --> 01:18:23,400
Speaker 1: his cowardice. You know, when you take a job like that,

1423
01:18:23,560 --> 01:18:26,960
Speaker 1: I think that it's it's understood that you're willing to

1424
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:31,479
Speaker 1: jump into the fire. Um. And there's also a new

1425
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:34,280
Speaker 1: George Hand article. I know we've had a few people say,

1426
01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:36,080
Speaker 1: how can we haven't seen any new George Hand stuff.

1427
01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:38,400
Speaker 1: So there's a brand new George Hand article. Uh, the

1428
01:18:38,439 --> 01:18:42,439
Speaker 1: internet trap protected thyself and people love to see George's

1429
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:45,520
Speaker 1: articles on the site. This is more digital stuff, not

1430
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:48,240
Speaker 1: not in his realm of human trafficking. But George writes

1431
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:51,800
Speaker 1: about all the different stuff. Um. Oh, I like how

1432
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:53,360
Speaker 1: I was about to drink this water with a cap

1433
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:56,400
Speaker 1: on which I can't see because I'm trying to hydrate

1434
01:18:56,479 --> 01:18:58,799
Speaker 1: to like I was saying beforehand, I was out drinking

1435
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:02,880
Speaker 1: with my friend last night. I mean, hey, we're attle

1436
01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:05,040
Speaker 1: trashed when I got home. That's the cool thing. They

1437
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:10,400
Speaker 1: still got to conduct a good interview him in here. Um. Oh,

1438
01:19:10,439 --> 01:19:13,120
Speaker 1: before I do the live reades, I also want to

1439
01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:15,960
Speaker 1: mention I said on the episode with Nick Kaufman that

1440
01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:18,720
Speaker 1: we're no longer going to be doing YouTube stuff. I

1441
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:22,160
Speaker 1: rethought that a little bit because we have episodes on

1442
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:24,360
Speaker 1: YouTube that have reached up to a hundred thousand people,

1443
01:19:24,400 --> 01:19:26,280
Speaker 1: and I was like, looking through it, like Brandon with

1444
01:19:26,439 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 1: um Rob O'Neill, that's a hundred thousand viewers. Um. We

1445
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:33,559
Speaker 1: have stuff with like Tonto and a few other big

1446
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:35,760
Speaker 1: ones that have reached you know, like five thousand six.

1447
01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:38,640
Speaker 1: So those are numbers I wouldn't want to get rid

1448
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:41,200
Speaker 1: of basically and just make this a dead channel. So

1449
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 1: we're no longer to do YouTube for like every episode.

1450
01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:46,000
Speaker 1: But if we have a big guest who comes in here,

1451
01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:49,320
Speaker 1: like let's say when we had when we had I'm

1452
01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:52,040
Speaker 1: just trying to think of Jeffrey Wright, who came in

1453
01:19:52,080 --> 01:19:56,760
Speaker 1: with Brandon and whose big name actor did this HBO documentary,

1454
01:19:56,960 --> 01:20:00,000
Speaker 1: That's something I think we should put on YouTube. Um.

1455
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:01,840
Speaker 1: But for the most part, we're not going to be

1456
01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:03,559
Speaker 1: doing so much YouTube, but I just want to keep

1457
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:07,040
Speaker 1: that channel alive because there's people who use YouTube that

1458
01:20:07,080 --> 01:20:09,879
Speaker 1: don't really listen to podcasts. They may discover it that way,

1459
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:13,400
Speaker 1: so I wouldn't want to just kill the channel completely. Um,

1460
01:20:13,439 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 1: So that's what we're doing with that. With that, be

1461
01:20:16,240 --> 01:20:18,960
Speaker 1: sure to check out Create Club. We have different tiers

1462
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:21,280
Speaker 1: of membership depending on how prepared you want to be,

1463
01:20:21,439 --> 01:20:24,760
Speaker 1: and gift options are available as well. Scott Whittner from

1464
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:27,000
Speaker 1: the load out Room, you guys know him and all

1465
01:20:27,040 --> 01:20:31,000
Speaker 1: those guys are currently working on bringing you custom products

1466
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:35,160
Speaker 1: in Drew Wallace as well, former Army ranger. He's working

1467
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:38,559
Speaker 1: on all that stuff, everything from sunglass cases to eat

1468
01:20:38,720 --> 01:20:42,360
Speaker 1: c bags and other manly products. It's a club fore

1469
01:20:42,439 --> 01:20:45,000
Speaker 1: men by men. You can check that all out of

1470
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:50,200
Speaker 1: Create Club dot Us. Once again, that's Create Club dot Us. Also,

1471
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:53,320
Speaker 1: as a reminder for all those listening, for a limited time,

1472
01:20:53,360 --> 01:20:57,240
Speaker 1: you can receive a fifty percent discounted membership to the

1473
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:01,280
Speaker 1: spec Ops Channel, our channel that offers the most exclusive shows,

1474
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:06,840
Speaker 1: documentaries and interviews covering the most exciting military content today.

1475
01:21:07,200 --> 01:21:10,799
Speaker 1: The spec Ops Channel premier show Training Cell follows former

1476
01:21:10,880 --> 01:21:15,240
Speaker 1: Special Operations Forces as they participate in the most advanced

1477
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:19,280
Speaker 1: training in the country, everything from shooting schools, defensive driving,

1478
01:21:19,720 --> 01:21:23,680
Speaker 1: jungle and winter warfare, climbing, and much more. And you

1479
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:26,559
Speaker 1: can watch that content by subscribing to the spec Ops

1480
01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:30,519
Speaker 1: Channel at spec ops channel dot com and take advantage

1481
01:21:30,520 --> 01:21:33,680
Speaker 1: of a limited time offer of fifty off your membership

1482
01:21:34,160 --> 01:21:37,200
Speaker 1: only four nine a month and check out the app

1483
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:40,200
Speaker 1: to the spec Ops Channel app. Hope that you guys

1484
01:21:40,240 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 1: all enjoy your Christmas. Uh, this is the last episode

1485
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:47,160
Speaker 1: before Christmas, and especially you guys who are overseas, were

1486
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:51,000
Speaker 1: downrange who don't get to spend your Christmas with your family. Uh.

1487
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:53,200
Speaker 1: You know, we respect what you're doing. And it's got

1488
01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:55,960
Speaker 1: to be tough. I know you've you've been there once,

1489
01:21:56,040 --> 01:21:59,679
Speaker 1: You've you said so yeah. Yeah, Like I've said before,

1490
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:02,000
Speaker 1: I was very lucky. I think I only missed one

1491
01:22:02,080 --> 01:22:04,920
Speaker 1: Christmas actually was in the military. Yeah, so I'm sure

1492
01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:06,880
Speaker 1: a lot of you guys have missed more than that.

1493
01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:08,680
Speaker 1: And it's got to be I don't know, just at

1494
01:22:08,720 --> 01:22:11,960
Speaker 1: the forefront of your mind. So although spending it with

1495
01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:13,519
Speaker 1: your family help you have a great one and those

1496
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:17,800
Speaker 1: overseas stay strong and um, I have to say, this

1497
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:19,800
Speaker 1: is probably like one of my favorite episodes. I I

1498
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:22,479
Speaker 1: really thought that was an excellent interview. I thought Karmen

1499
01:22:22,600 --> 01:22:25,800
Speaker 1: was great. Yeah, no, it's really interesting, provides a different perspective,

1500
01:22:26,280 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 1: Uh for sure. I think might be is that the

1501
01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:33,400
Speaker 1: first time we've interviewed an inbedded journalist, a combat in bed. Yeah.

1502
01:22:33,439 --> 01:22:34,840
Speaker 1: The only thing I could think of is, you know,

1503
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:38,120
Speaker 1: Joey's a photographer, but that's different. He's done show we

1504
01:22:38,600 --> 01:22:41,200
Speaker 1: I don't think he ever did an in bed I'm

1505
01:22:41,240 --> 01:22:45,280
Speaker 1: just thinking a combat photographer. Yeah. Probably, yeah, it probably is. Uh.

1506
01:22:45,439 --> 01:22:48,320
Speaker 1: We we had Sean Naylor on once, but also not

1507
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:51,599
Speaker 1: an in bed Um did it? Did ed Derek do any?

1508
01:22:52,160 --> 01:22:53,920
Speaker 1: He did a lot? He did a lot. Yeah, so

1509
01:22:53,960 --> 01:22:56,720
Speaker 1: then ed Derek, who's coming back on He's gonna be

1510
01:22:56,720 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 1: back on mid January. I don't think we ever we

1511
01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:01,160
Speaker 1: see when we had a mom before we were talking

1512
01:23:01,160 --> 01:23:04,280
Speaker 1: about the extortion seventeen crash. We talked a little bit

1513
01:23:04,280 --> 01:23:06,040
Speaker 1: about that stuff, and did we did we talk about

1514
01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:08,600
Speaker 1: his in beds? I think we might have mentioned it

1515
01:23:08,600 --> 01:23:11,639
Speaker 1: at least. I mean, guys were up to four hundred

1516
01:23:11,960 --> 01:23:14,960
Speaker 1: plus episodes. I remember everyone we interview, but I can't

1517
01:23:14,960 --> 01:23:18,879
Speaker 1: remember every detail of every interview. Yeah, I would definitely

1518
01:23:18,920 --> 01:23:24,360
Speaker 1: go check out Carmen's book. Um, it's definitely got a

1519
01:23:24,720 --> 01:23:29,720
Speaker 1: interesting perspective. He does have a sense of humor. Oh yeah, yeah, um,

1520
01:23:29,760 --> 01:23:32,479
Speaker 1: but yeah no, that was a that was a fun interview. Cool.

1521
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:35,519
Speaker 1: All right, we'll have a great weekend and a merry Christmas. Guys,

1522
01:23:35,560 --> 01:23:37,960
Speaker 1: don't say merry Christmas. We gotta keep that secular. I

1523
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:41,720
Speaker 1: and uh and actually we won't. Normally I would be

1524
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:43,680
Speaker 1: doing the best stuff for the next episode because I

1525
01:23:43,760 --> 01:23:47,960
Speaker 1: was like, it's Christmas Eve, It's Christmas. Um. But luckily J,

1526
01:23:48,360 --> 01:23:50,439
Speaker 1: as you guys know J from the UK, one of

1527
01:23:50,439 --> 01:23:54,200
Speaker 1: our writers who's back. He was on my ass saying

1528
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:57,320
Speaker 1: we've got to do a show in Ukraine constantly. So

1529
01:23:57,360 --> 01:23:59,040
Speaker 1: I was like, all right, we'll do it. And uh

1530
01:23:59,200 --> 01:24:01,880
Speaker 1: so that's the show you're gonna here. We already recorded it,

1531
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:04,320
Speaker 1: but it'll be a one arm to prevent new material

1532
01:24:04,400 --> 01:24:09,200
Speaker 1: and not a basta. You've been listening to Self Rep Radio.

1533
01:24:09,960 --> 01:24:14,040
Speaker 1: New episodes up every Wednesday and Friday. Follow the show

1534
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:17,160
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter at self Rep Radio.