1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 2: When Asad Ijaz Butt was growing up, he was ambitious. 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 2: He left his home country of Pakistan to attend college 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 2: in Canada. He graduated with honors and got a job 5 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 2: there as a management consultant. But in twenty fifteen, when 6 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: Asad was in his mid twenties, he made a decision 7 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 2: that surprised people close to him. 8 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: I left everything. 9 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 2: He gave up his job in Canada to move back 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 2: to Pakistan. 11 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 3: I was one of the few young Pakistanis who had 12 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 3: a career in North America. A lot of Pakistanis found 13 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 3: it very surprising that somebody who was settled in a 14 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 3: country like Canada went back to work in Pakistan. 15 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 2: When Asad got back to Pakistan, he got a job 16 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 2: in the government, working under two finance ministers. It was 17 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 2: considered a well paid and prestigious job inside Pakistan, and 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: Asad was glad to be able to do something that 19 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 2: felt like giving back. 20 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: I had a passion to do something for my country, 21 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: for my people. 22 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 2: For almost a decade later, that passion began to fade. 23 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 2: The prices of things Asad needed to live every day 24 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 2: were rising, and he started to feel like his salary 25 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 2: wasn't keeping up. 26 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 3: My wife was earning in Pakistan. I was earning in Pakistan. 27 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 3: But yet I think over time, both of us are 28 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 3: salaries to lump together. Could not afford the higher rental prices, 29 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:39,839 Speaker 3: the high fuel prices. 30 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: Asad took on more work, one side gig after another. 31 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: I had to do three jobs. 32 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 3: At one point, I started feeling that my health was 33 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 3: badly effective because on a lot of these days I 34 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 3: was working more than fifteen hours a day and perhaps 35 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 3: more than eighty hours a week. 36 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 2: But Asad still didn't feel it was enough to keep 37 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 2: up with his expenses, and he was starting to feel 38 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 2: like he needed to make a bigger change. 39 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 3: You know, this feeling kept growing that I have to 40 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 3: put bread on my table. 41 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: I was entering my thirties. I got married. 42 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 3: Also, I had more responsibilities, and I had to take 43 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 3: the tough decision very painstakingly to come back to the 44 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 3: life I was living before twenty. 45 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 2: Fifteen, Asat decided to look for opportunities outside of Pakistan. 46 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 2: He applied for scholarships to get a PhD, and he 47 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 2: got one in the US. He moved to Boston in 48 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. Assad is just one of a growing 49 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 2: number of Pakistanis who feel like life is getting harder 50 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 2: and harder inside the country. 51 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 4: Pritures and taxes are going up in Pakistan and people 52 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 4: feel more trapped. Everyone is much more poorer. 53 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 2: That's Bloomberg's Pakistan Bureau chief Fussy Mongy, who's based in Karachi. 54 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 4: Last year, Pakistan recorded the highest outflow in seven years. 55 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 4: This is according to GRE data from United Nations. The 56 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 4: exodus was most pronounced among skilled and educated. In twenty 57 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 4: twenty three, the number of doctors, engineers, accountants and managers 58 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 4: who left Pakistan doubled to sixty thousand. That makes Pakistan 59 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 4: one of the top ten countries for immigration. 60 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 2: Welcome to The Big Take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm 61 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 2: Rebecca Cheung Wilkins. Every week we take you inside some 62 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 2: of the world's biggest and most powerful economies and the 63 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: market's tycoons and businesses that drive this ever shifting region. 64 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: Today on the show, one of the world's most populous 65 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: nations is facing a severe brain train. Why are so 66 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: many educated workers leaving and where are they going? And 67 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: what does this mean for Pakistan's already fragile economy. Migration 68 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 2: from Pakistan is not a new phenomenon, but Bloomberg's Fuzzy 69 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: Mongy told us that in twenty twenty two things started 70 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: to get really bad. More than eight hundred thousand people 71 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: left Pakistan that year. 72 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 4: So it started about two years ago. Pakistan has been 73 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 4: going through its biggest economic storm in its history in 74 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 4: the past two three years, so a lot of people 75 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 4: lost a lot of hope. It became tougher to make 76 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 4: ends meet, so people started looking outside of Pakistan. 77 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 2: One item that many households are struggling to afford is electricity. 78 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 2: Fuzzy says that for some people, their electricity bill is 79 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: almost as high as their rent. Let's just pause for 80 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 2: a second and imagine that your electricity bill being as 81 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 2: much as your rent, and that means people can hardly 82 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 2: save if at all. 83 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 4: Electricity bill would be the biggest component of expenses. People 84 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 4: also go to the utility companies and be like, hey, 85 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 4: you know, we got this bill, can you like cut 86 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 4: it down into smaller installments so we can pay it 87 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 4: over six months or nine months. People are actually getting 88 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 4: loans from families and friends to make ends meet. 89 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: Fasi says there are three main drivers behind these massive 90 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 2: price hikes. For things like electricity. The first one is 91 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 2: the rise in global commodity prices that has impacted everyone everywhere. 92 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 2: But on top of that number two, Pakistan has seen 93 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 2: its currency significantly devalued. It was the worst performing currency 94 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 2: in Asia last year. The Pakistani rupee has lost almost 95 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 2: half of its value in recent years, and that made 96 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: imported goods much more expensive. Adding to the pain is 97 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 2: a new tax Pakistan added last year. 98 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 4: Pakistan imposed something called a luxury tax, So anything imported 99 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 4: from overseas has gotten an extra luxury tax. And I 100 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 4: can tell you from personal experience that Dorito's also falls 101 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 4: in that category. And Dorito's in Karachi now costs like 102 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 4: ginormously more than how much it costs in Dubai. 103 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 2: I can't believe that de Rito's are a luxury active. 104 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 4: I don't have the list in front of me. But 105 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 4: stuff like basics like chocolates and makeup, these things are 106 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 4: also added a luxury tax. 107 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 2: All of this push Pakistan's inflation rate to a record 108 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 2: thirty eight percent last May, and it's remained the highest 109 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 2: in Asia since then. And on top of paying more 110 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: than ever for things they buy, some of the countries 111 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 2: more educated and highly skilled workers are also now paying 112 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 2: much more in taxes because they're considered some of the 113 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: country's highest earners. But Farsi says most people in Pakistan 114 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 2: don't make a lot of money to begin with. 115 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 4: To be among the top twenty percent income owners in Pakistan, 116 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 4: you need to have a salary of sixty four thousand rupees, 117 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 4: which is only two hundred and thirty dollars a month. 118 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 4: The idea is that if someone is paying a tax 119 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 4: equal to what they'll pay in London or New York, 120 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 4: then why am I not enjoying the same infrastructure and benefits. 121 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: With both inflation and taxes spiraling out of control, numerous 122 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: protests took place across the country and people started to 123 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: rush for the exit door. 124 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 4: Anyone with a high degree who can move is moving, 125 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 4: and we're seeing people move in all sorts of ways. 126 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 4: People are going on visit visas to Middle East or 127 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 4: the US even for that matter, and just hunting for jobs. 128 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 4: Senior people in the financial industry. I know one of 129 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 4: them applied for a refugee status in the US. 130 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: This kind of brain drain is bad for any country, 131 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 2: but it's especially troubling in Pakistan because it has already 132 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: been struggling financially. Pakistan just recently made a seven billion 133 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 2: dollar bailout deal with the International Monetary Fund and it 134 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,679 Speaker 2: needs its highly educated and skilled workers to help pull 135 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: the country back out of its debt crisis. So what 136 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 2: can Pakistan do to stop this exodus of talent? And 137 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: with its top earners gone, will Pakistan be able to 138 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 2: avoid bankruptcy? That's after the break record numbers of Pakistanis, 139 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 2: including some of the highest earners in the country, are 140 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: leaving for other places, and Bloomberg's Fussy Mongy says the 141 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 2: reason they're leaving has a look to do with the 142 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 2: state of Pakistan's economy right now and where they see 143 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 2: it going in the future. 144 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 4: Pakistan's economic growth on an average of trailing three years 145 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 4: is the lowest ever in its history right now, and 146 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 4: list and economists are not predicting Pakistan's economic growth to 147 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 4: go up anytime soon. 148 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 2: On top of this slowing growth, the country is also 149 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: dealing with massive debt. Pakistan faces about twenty six billion 150 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 2: US dollars in loan repayments to partners like China, Saudi 151 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 2: Arabia and the UAE, and it's also gotten huge loans 152 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: from the IMF to help the country avoid a default. 153 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 4: So the IMF is the lender of last resort. Pakistan 154 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 4: is one of the most frequent customers for the IMF. 155 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 4: The IMF classifies Pakistan's debt situation as borderline sustainable, so 156 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 4: it's working on a fine rope. Earlier this year, or 157 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 4: just a month or so ago, IMF approved a new 158 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 4: seven billion dollar bailout. This was the twenty fifth program 159 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 4: in Pakistan's history. And just to give some context as well, 160 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 4: so Pakistan ended another program from the IMF earlier this year, 161 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 4: and Pakistan has been going from one IMF program to theato. 162 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 2: And while this latest IMF program may be giving a 163 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:08,079 Speaker 2: lifeline to Pakistan, it's also a major driving force for 164 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: the country's substantial tax increases, the same tax increases that 165 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 2: working people in Pakistan are so upset about. In order 166 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 2: to meet the conditions set by the IMF for the deal, 167 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 2: Pakistan recently raised the total tax revenue target by forty percent, 168 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: the highest on record. This has created a challenge for 169 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 2: the country's leaders, who recognize the need to collect more revenue, 170 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 2: but also fear the increased taxes will lead to more 171 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 2: skilled and educated workers leaving the country. Ali Paves Malik, 172 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: the State Minister for Finance and Revenue, said, talent leaving 173 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 2: is something we must be cognizant of. Here's Bloomberg's fussy 174 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 2: Mangi again. 175 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 4: They're aware of the fact that the taxes are high. 176 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 4: They say, whenever they can give a relief to the 177 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 4: income tax sector, they will give a relief. But it's 178 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 4: going to be a rough ride for the next few years. 179 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 4: It's going to be difficult. Economist say, it's going to 180 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 4: be difficult for the government to give that relief. 181 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 2: Fuzzi. What happens if the government fails to stop more 182 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 2: Pakistani Is from leaving the country. 183 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 4: Then we're going to have a talent issue in Pakistan. 184 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 4: A lot of companies are not finding the same quality 185 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 4: of people to replace the people who are leaving, so 186 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 4: it's creating a massive hole of talent. 187 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 2: So where does Pakistan go from here? Will Pakistan be 188 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 2: able to navigate itself out of this economic crunch? Will 189 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 2: the seven billion dollar IMF bailout be its last? Fuzzy says, 190 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 2: there's no clear path forward. 191 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 4: One thing to notice that the IMF program is a stabilizer, 192 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 4: it's not a booster. For your economy. It doesn't solve 193 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 4: the problems, the base problems of the economy. It can 194 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 4: tell you what needs to be done, it can lay 195 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 4: it out. In Pakistan, everyone says, everyone knows what the 196 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 4: problem is. It's about getting the job done, and unfortunately 197 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 4: we haven't been able to do the job for a 198 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 4: long time. We're seeing a very serious effort this time. 199 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 4: Whether we will be able to do it or not, 200 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 4: that is a question that remains, and we'll just need 201 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 4: to wait and see what happens. 202 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: And as for Asad, who we hear from in the 203 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 2: beginning of the episode, he left Pakistan to pursue a 204 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 2: life in the US. He says, even though he's chosen 205 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 2: to leave his home country for now, he still holds 206 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 2: out hope that he could one day return. 207 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 3: I think that option never goes out of the window, 208 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 3: and it will always stay on the cards. It's my country, 209 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 3: I love it, and it's a sad situation. But I 210 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 3: guess when I decided to jump the boat, I thought 211 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,479 Speaker 3: about all these things. But constantly, your passion for the country, 212 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 3: your passion for meaningful change, it's constantly pitted against economic responsibility, 213 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 3: and at the end of the day, you have to 214 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:00,599 Speaker 3: put your weight behind economic responsibility more than press or 215 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 3: emotionality for your country. 216 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 2: This is The Big Take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm 217 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: Rebecca Cheung Wilkins. This episode was produced by Young Young, 218 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 2: Naomi Ung and Jessica Beck. It was mixed by Alex 219 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 2: Segura and fact checked by Eddie dwe It was edited 220 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 2: by Caitlin Kenney, Aaron Edwards, and Kai Schultz. We'd like 221 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 2: to give special thanks to the Bloomberg Originals team. Naomi 222 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: Shavin is our senior producer, Elizabeth Ponso is our senior editor, 223 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 2: Nicole Beamstabor is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is 224 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 2: Bloomberg's head of podcast Please follow and review The Big 225 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: Take Asia wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps 226 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: new listeners find the show. See you next time.