1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Wilson and I'm Holly Fry And so they 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: were going to talk about Alan L. Hart, who was 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: both a doctor and a writer. He became a really 6 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: prominent figure in the worlds of radiology and tuberculosis control. 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: He did a whole lot of work in giving X 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: rays to people as a screening measure you both before 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: and after there was a treatment available for tuberculosis, and 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: this turned out to be extremely important in getting people 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: into treatment early so that they could be cured before 12 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: things got really bad. His novels were also set in 13 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: the world of medicine, and a lot of them, you know, 14 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: in addition to be interesting stories to read, offered up 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: some criticism of the discrimination and greed that he felt 16 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: had become really rampant and then medical world. His books 17 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: also drew from personal experience. He was born and raised 18 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: as a girl, but he transitioned to a male identity 19 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: in his twenties, and he became one of the first 20 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: people in the United States to have surgery and an 21 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: effort to transition to a different gender from the one 22 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: he had been born to, So let's start with his 23 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: early life. He was born Alberta Lucille Hart on October 24 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: four Hawsommit, Kansas. His parents were Albert and Edna Hart, 25 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: and Alan was an only child. Allen's father died of 26 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: typhoid when he was very very young, in so Allen 27 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: would have only been too at that time, and he 28 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 1: and his mother moved to Lynn County, Oregon, where Edna's 29 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: family lived, and young Allen often reassured his widowed mother 30 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: that he would grow up to be a man and 31 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: take care of her. He was also interested in medicine 32 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: from a very early age. Until he was about four, 33 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: he liked to play with dolls, but he didn't really 34 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: play with them, and like a mom capacity, it was 35 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: more than an imaginative play or he would imagine hospital 36 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: scenarios for the dolls that he was playing with. This 37 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: was described a little bit later in a case study 38 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 1: by his doctor, Dr J. Alan Gilbert, who used h 39 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: as a pseudonym for Alan, and one of the things 40 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: that Dr Gilbert said in his case study was this 41 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: was a very active child, did a boy's work about 42 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: the farm, milked the cows, learned to ride and drive horses. 43 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: Liked to listen to the men who came to the place, 44 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: discussing politics, agriculture, et cetera. Always played at barn or 45 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: in toolhouse unless confined to the house by stormy weather, 46 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: when store or hospital was the favorite game. Never played 47 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: house or at Being the mother of dolls at age seven, 48 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: h refused to play with dolls with small girl visitor 49 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: as unless as head and father of the family. He 50 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: also regarded himself as a boy and thought that he 51 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: would become a boy if only his family would cut 52 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: his hair and let him wear boy clothes, and he 53 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: felt most comfortable when wearing overalls and other boys clothing. Eventually, 54 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: when Alan was about four and a half, Edna remarried 55 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 1: to a man named Bill Barton. When Alan was seven, 56 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,959 Speaker 1: the family moved to a farm in Albany, Oregon, which 57 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: is about seventy miles south of Portland. And when he 58 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: got a little older, he found himself starting to identify 59 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: with the male characters rather than the female ones in 60 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: the romance novels he would read, and as he reached puberty, 61 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: he began to discover that he was attracted to women. 62 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: Alan went to Albany College, which later became Lewis and 63 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: Clark College, and that started in eight He developed a 64 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: somewhat tumultuous relationship with a classmate named Emma Cushman, which 65 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: went on for a number of years. In En, he 66 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: transferred to Stanford, and he paid Emma's way to go 67 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: with him, because she couldn't afford it herself and they 68 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: didn't want to be separated. Stanford is not far from 69 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: San Francisco, and while San Francisco didn't have the prominent 70 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: gay culture then that it does today, remember this was 71 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: well before the Stonewall Riots launched the gay rights movement, 72 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: and that Castro was really just a quiet, working class neighborhood. 73 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: At the time. San Francisco still was a much larger 74 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: city and had a very different culture from Albany, and 75 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: in this environment, Alan began to dress and act in 76 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: what was considered a more typically masculine way. Allen transferred 77 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: back to Albany and graduated in nineteen twelve, and unfortunately, 78 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: at this point he was really deeply in debt for 79 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: a combination of reasons. One one of what he had 80 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: developed a gambling habit while at Stanford, and the other 81 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: was that he was paying for all of Emma's expenses. 82 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: His relationship was also starting to really show some strain. 83 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: Some of this was because he really wanted to wear 84 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: men's clothing on formal occasions, and Emma wanted him to 85 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: wear dresses when they were going out somewhere nice and 86 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: also wanted him to behave in a more feminine and 87 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: restrained way. So their relationship was really starting to have 88 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: some some strain going on. Yeah, he took a year 89 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: off and tried to make money as a commercial photographer 90 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: in an effort to recover from his debt, but the 91 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,799 Speaker 1: combination and a financial and personal stress really took its toll, 92 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: and at one point that year, Allen attempted suicide. The 93 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: next year, though, he went on to medical school at 94 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: the University of Oregon. This later became Oregon Health and 95 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: Science University School of Medicine UM. He started his medical 96 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: school in nineteen thirteen, and he graduated at the top 97 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: of his class in nineteen seventeen, and he received what's 98 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: called the Sailor Medal, which is an award for the 99 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: person with the most outstanding academic standing in the graduating class. 100 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: Eighteen was a pivotal year in Allen's life. That February, 101 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: he eloped with a teacher named Nas Clark, using the 102 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: name Robert Allen Bamford, Jr. He also got his license 103 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: to practice medicine that year, and he underwent surgery as 104 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: part of a transition to a male identity. It started 105 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: when he sought treatment from Dr J. Allan Gilbert for 106 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: a phobia of loud noises. Right. A lot of times 107 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: when you see this referred to, it says that he 108 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: was seeking treatment because of his attraction to women, but 109 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: it was actually this phobia that drove him to seek 110 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: some psychiatric help. In therapy, Dr Gilbert traced the root 111 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: of this phobia to an experience that Alan had when 112 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: he was young and which he was frightened by the 113 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: sound of his stepfather's shotgun. The psychoanalysis that followed included 114 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: things like hypnotherapy and word association, and eventually, based on 115 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: Allan's responses and reactions, Dr Gilbert concluded that the problem 116 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: was related in some way to sex. He later wrote 117 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: in his case study, which was called Quote Homosexuality and 118 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: its Treatment, that he didn't really expect Allen to come 119 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: and see him again once he'd spelled this whole hypothesis out. Yeah, 120 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 1: he really thought that Alan was gonna that it was 121 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: going to be divisive and they would not have a 122 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: relationship going forward. Too ashamed by this whole revelation to 123 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: to come back to the office, but he did return 124 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: to treatment about two weeks later, and at the request 125 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: of Dr Gilbert, he wrote an autobiographical account detailing his 126 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: identification with the male gender, as well as his attraction 127 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: to women and a number of romantic relationships that he'd had. 128 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: Dr Gilbert later used a lot of this account in 129 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: his case study, and at the time, American society viewed 130 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: same sex attraction as deeply abnormal, something Allan had discovered 131 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: while he was in college, which caused him to keep 132 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: his attractions and relationships a secret. And there was not 133 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: yet an English word for what is referred to as 134 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: transgender today. In the words of doctor Gilbert, and this 135 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,119 Speaker 1: was written in his words, which is why it uses 136 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: female pronouns. After long consideration, she came to the office 137 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: with her mind made up to adopt male attire in 138 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: conformity with her true nature and try to face life 139 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: under conditions that might make life bearable. Suicide had been 140 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: repeatedly considered as an avenue of escape from her dilemma. 141 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: Preliminary to the adoption of male attire. She came to 142 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: me with the request that I removed her uterus, with 143 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: two definite ends in view, one to relieve her of 144 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: the dysmenorrhea and the inconvenience of dealing with the flow 145 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: in adle at high and to to sterilize her. I 146 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: want to comment on this for a minute. One is 147 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: that this description is really common in what you'll read 148 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: in the stories of transgender people today as far as 149 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: living as the gender that they identify with is what 150 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: makes life bearable to them. Um. The other is this 151 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: kind of shocking to today's point of view that that 152 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: part of the purpose was to be sterilized. Um. And 153 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: this really drew from the eugenics movement, which was still 154 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: going on, and the idea that anybody who had some 155 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: kind of mental defect or inversion should be sterilized. So 156 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: it's kind of a double edged sword, this whole hysterectomy 157 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: that he went through. Yeah, because in some ways, while 158 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: it was achieving what he wanted and viewed himself as, 159 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: there's also the recognition that somehow that was still flawed 160 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: which is it is. It's a troubling conundrum and I 161 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: can't of engine how tricky that must be to like 162 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: mentally work through. So, although there had been some surgeries 163 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: to reshape ambiguous genitalia for people who had intersex conditions 164 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: or physical parts of both male and female anatomy, the 165 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: idea of a sex reassignment surgery also did not really 166 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: exist in the US at this point. It was a 167 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: teeny bit better known of in Europe, following experimental sex 168 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: change surgeries on animals, just a whole other slightly troubling subject. 169 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: There's a lot of slightly troubling subject and much of 170 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: science and medicine in particular involves if you're an animal person. 171 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: It's there's a lot of stuff that has happened to 172 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: animals along the way that makes the tricky uh. And 173 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: this being you know, kind of a heavyweight topic, there's 174 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: added layers. But even so, with these experiments happening, sex 175 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: reassignment was still in its infancy, even on sort of 176 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: the most cutting edge areas in Europe. A German doctor 177 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: named Max Marc's had published one of the first articles 178 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: about human sex reassignment surgery as a concept in nineteen sixteen, 179 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: after a man who had read about these experiments and 180 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: wished to change his sex to female had contacted him. 181 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 1: The earliest of these surgeries are mostly about the removal 182 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 1: of sex organs. There just wasn't a lot of plastic 183 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: or reconstructive work as a follow up to create a 184 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: new set of organs for the opposite gender. One of 185 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: the first surgeries that did include the construction of new 186 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: sex organs was still years away, and that involved multiple 187 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: procedures that were conducted from nine to nineteen thirty one 188 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: on a German patient named Dorshan Richter, and this happened 189 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: at the Institute for Sexual Science in Germany, which is 190 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: a research institute operated by sex researcher Magnus Hirschfield, which 191 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: was later destroyed by the Nazis. Christine Jorgensen was the 192 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: first person in the United States to become famous for 193 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: having sex reassignment surgery, but that wasn't until the fifties, 194 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 1: so all of these developments in surgery were way far 195 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: down the line from where things where when when Alan 196 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: wanted to transition decades later, So when Alan had his 197 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: uterus and ovaries removed, he became one of the first 198 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: people in the United States to undergo surgery for the 199 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: purpose of gender reassignment. When Alan transitioned to living as 200 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: a man, he took the name Alan L. Hart and 201 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 1: he opened a medical practice in Gardener, Oregon, which is 202 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: in the southwest part of the state. But before long 203 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: of former colleagues saw him and recognized him, and in 204 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: the words of Dr Gilbert Quote, then the hounding process began, 205 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: which our modern social organization can carry out to such 206 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: perfection and refinement against her own members. As a consequence, 207 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: Alan and his wife began to move around a lot 208 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: from this point on, just to escape the harassment and 209 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,319 Speaker 1: persecution and also the job loss that would almost inevitably 210 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: happen when his gender change was discovered. First, they spent 211 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: some time in rural Montana, and that lasted until the 212 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: brief depression that followed the end of World War One, 213 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: and that devastated the local farm economy, and it really 214 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,359 Speaker 1: took with it Alan's livelihood. So they were already struggling, 215 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: but at that point no one could afford to come 216 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: see him as a doctor, and his marriage to ANDAs 217 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: did not survive the financial and personal stream uh In 218 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: three she left and they legally divorced two years later. 219 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: Around this time, Alan started to really be interested in radiology. 220 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: It was still a relatively new field at this point. 221 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 1: X rays were discovered in but it took some years 222 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: of improvements and methods and safety before they were actually 223 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: really usable for medical purposes. And even when he got 224 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: into working in radiology, they were mostly being used to 225 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: kind of examine broken bones. They had not been as 226 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: much used on looking at zop tissue yet right. Alan 227 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: gradually made a name for himself through his work in 228 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: radiology and in tuberculosis detection, as we mentioned at the 229 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: top of the podcast, and he was one of the 230 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: forerunners and using X rays to diagnose tuberculosis, he broke 231 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: new ground and that allowed for earlier detection and treatment 232 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: of what had been called consumption up to that point, 233 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: but he would now call tuberculosis. Yeah, and this, as 234 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: we said earlier, it worked out to be really important 235 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: in controlling tuberculosis, especially a little farther down the line 236 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: once they're actually were antibiotics to treat it. Allen met 237 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: a social worker named Edna reddick In and they got 238 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: married the same year, and Allan and Edna continued to 239 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: move around the country, in part to escape persecution and 240 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: in part for Allen to continue his education. He eventually 241 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: got a master's degree in radiology from the University of 242 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania and a master's of public health at Yale, and 243 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: he also did postgraduate work at the New York Postgraduate Hospital. 244 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: Among his many jobs were working with tuberculosis patients in 245 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: a sanatorium in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and another one in Rockford, Illinois, 246 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: serving as a director of radiology at Tacoma General Hospital, 247 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: delivering lectures on public health and conducting chest X ray 248 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: clinics for tubercular his control programs. He also read the 249 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: chest X rays for military recruits that were required before 250 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: they could join the military. And before we go on 251 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: to a completely different aspect of his working life, and 252 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 1: now let's go back to Allen's writing career. At one point, 253 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: while he was living in Oregon again, Alan decided to 254 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: take some writing classes and his hope was that he 255 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: would make some money as a writer when he couldn't 256 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: find work in the medical field. I think this went 257 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: a lot better than he even could have expected. He 258 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: became a really successful novelist, publishing four novels between nineteen 259 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: thirty five and nineteen forty two. They were called Dr Mallory, 260 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: The Undaunted, The Lives of Men, and Dr Findlay sees 261 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: it through. Most of these books featured idealistic young doctors 262 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: who were gradually discovering discrimination, greed, and unethical practices in 263 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: a variety of different medical settings, including family practice, research, 264 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: and hospitals, and in five he wrote this tour reviewer quote, 265 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: the ugly things that have grown up in medicine are 266 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: the result of the ugliness and falsity of society as 267 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,479 Speaker 1: a whole, of our American preoccupation with success and making money, 268 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: of our concentration of effort on the production of things 269 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: rather than their used for a fuller human life. These 270 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: things are not the fault of the individual physician, and 271 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: neither can they be remedied by him, so long as 272 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: the American people are permeated with the spirit of I'm 273 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: going to get mine, no matter how just so long 274 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: when attitude filter into all the professions. Doctors are people 275 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: first and are attracted by the current ideals just as 276 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: other people are. I feel like someone could have written 277 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: us yesterday, that's exactly what I said. I mean, people 278 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: still are writing this forever trying to kind of pick 279 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: apart that what really is the crux of problems in society? 280 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: And this one has been recurrent for a while. And 281 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: the books also included a number of thematic ties to 282 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: Alan's own struggles with his sexual orientation and his gender, 283 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: and his constant need to move after being recognized or 284 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: to use a modern term outed by his colleagues, And 285 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: for example, in The Undaunted, he writes this description of 286 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: a gay male character. He had been driven from place 287 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: to place, from job to job for fifteen years because 288 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: of something he could not alter any more than he 289 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: could change the color of his eyes. Gossip, scandal, rumor 290 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: always drove him on. It did no good to live alone, 291 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: to make few acquaintances and no intimates. Sooner or later 292 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: someone always turned up to recognize him. And then there 293 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: was that wretched business of resigning by request to be 294 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: gone through again, and after the concoction of the plausible 295 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: story to account for the resignation, and the ordeal of 296 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: hunting another job without explaining exactly why he had left 297 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: the old one, and at the same time without lying 298 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: about it. Each time he underwent these humiliations, his self 299 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: respects seemed first to ride and then to shrink. The 300 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: character who this is written was named Sandy Farquhar, and 301 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: this character also goes into radiology, hoping that his sexual 302 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: orientation will be less of an issue working in a 303 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: radiology lab instead of in a hospital or other practice 304 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: with patients. I think, of all of his characters, this 305 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: is the one that people most often associate with Alan 306 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: himself and thinks, I think maybe this is a fictional 307 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: representation of him because it seems so closely to mirror 308 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: his own life and experiences, and that writing and you know, 309 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: likely writing very closely about his experiences seems to have 310 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: been extremely therapeutic for him. He wrote that he could 311 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: probably he would probably not have survived without it. And 312 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: he didn't just write fiction. He also wrote a book 313 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: on radiology, which was published in nineteen forty three called 314 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: These Mysterious Rays, a non technical discussion of the uses 315 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: of X rays and radium, chiefly in medicine. In ve 316 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,479 Speaker 1: Allen and Edna moved to West Hartford, Connecticut, where they 317 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: bought a house and Allen became the director of tuberculosis 318 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: Control for the state. For the first time in his 319 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: adult life, he was able to stay in one place 320 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,719 Speaker 1: for a while, and he actually held that position for 321 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: seventeen years, right up until the end of his life. 322 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: He started hormone treatments after World War Two, which is 323 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: when synthetic mail hormones became available on the market. It's 324 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: possible that these treatments, which would have made his masculine 325 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: features more prominent, combined with his long marriage to Edna 326 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: and the new location to give him a little bit 327 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: more privacy and security in his professional life. Alan died 328 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: of heart failure on July one of nineteen sixty two, 329 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: and he was seventy one at the time. He and 330 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: Edna had been married for thirty seven years. His body 331 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: was cremated, his ashes were scattered, and his journals and 332 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: papers were destroyed, as he had requested in his will. 333 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: He also requested that no monument be erected in his memory, 334 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: and he seemed to want to just sort of fade 335 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: away at that point. Yeah, I can imagine someone who 336 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: has been through what he went through probably did not 337 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: want his life picked apart or he was gone. Edna 338 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: lived for another twenty years, and when she died, she 339 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: left most of her estate to the Medical Research Foundation, 340 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: just part of the Oregon Health Sciences University in his 341 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: memory when she died in two It was intended to 342 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: go towards leukemia research. His mother had died of leukemia, 343 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: although I wasn't able to find the date when that happened. 344 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: In our recent episodes on Jane Adams, we talked about 345 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: some of the difficulties that come with speculating about a 346 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: historical figure sexual orientation when that person didn't leave a clear, 347 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: self expressed identity, and we've gotten lots of mail about 348 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: it and it's come up Um. But part of this 349 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: is because identifications and attitudes have changed so radically in 350 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: the last century, even down to really significant shifts in 351 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: the language used to describe people's sexuality in their identities, right, 352 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: So it does get really really tricky. It does. And 353 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: even though for both Jane Adams UM and Alan Hart 354 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: most of their personal papers were destroyed after their death, 355 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,479 Speaker 1: because of his psychological treatment and his novels, we have 356 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,479 Speaker 1: a much more personal understanding of Alan's identity than we 357 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: do of Jane's relationships. There's also been a whole lot 358 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: of scholarly debate about just how to define Alan Hart. 359 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: He underwent surgery and transitioned to a male identity before 360 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: the words transsexual or transgender even existed. The first known 361 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: use of transsexual was in nineteen fifty seven, and transgender 362 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: was coined in nineteen seventy nine, so that was a 363 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: few years before and after his death. Dr Gilbert's case 364 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: study is actually a little bit problematic. It was published 365 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: just two years after Alan's transition, and he gets some 366 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: points for showing a great deal of empathy and trying 367 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 1: to treat Allen rather than just dismissing him as sick 368 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: or incurable, which was really unusual at the time that 369 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: a lot of doctors would have been sort of dismissive. 370 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: Uh and sometimes even today that still happens. But although 371 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: the case study referred to Allen only as h he 372 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: didn't do very much to disguise who he was talking about. 373 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: And he co opted a lot of Alan's autobiography, which 374 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: was written for the purpose of therapy and not intended 375 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: to be shared with the world, and it included very 376 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: very personal thoughts and information, extremely personal and definitely was 377 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: not a piece of work that Alan was intending for 378 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: other people beyond his therapist to read. Um it was 379 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: not clear until much more recently who who h was 380 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: in Dr Gilbert's case study. Historian Jonathan Cats is the 381 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: person who made that connection, and in nineteen seventy six, 382 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: Cats wrote a book called Gay American History, which identified 383 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: Alan as a lesbian, claiming that he was quote clearly 384 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: a lesbian woman loving woman who illustrates only too well 385 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: one extreme to which an intelligent, aspiring lesbian in early 386 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: twentieth century America might be driven by her own and 387 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: her doctor's acceptance of society's condemnation of women loving women 388 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: in On the other hand, Cats referred to this designation 389 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 1: as a mistake, and he said that instead, but it 390 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: was much more important to think of how Alan considered 391 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: himself and his own life. So it's more there's more 392 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: recent line of thought on the part of both Cats 393 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: and of sort of scholars in general. Uh. Some of 394 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: it seems to be because the whole idea of transgender 395 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 1: was so new at that point as a as a 396 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: concept in American consciousness, Like, we didn't so much have 397 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: the idea of a person feeling themselves to be a 398 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: different gender as as then then they were born. There 399 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: were certainly people who felt that way, but it wasn't 400 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: something that was sort of part of the American language 401 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: and dialogue. Yeah, I would, but most people had never 402 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 1: even heard of it or thought of the idea. Right. 403 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: When you read accounts of people who transitioned in those 404 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: earlier years, a lot of the description that comes up 405 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 1: involves U the basically the idea of I didn't even 406 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: realize that this was a thing that people felt until 407 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: I realized that I was feeling it. Um. Also, there 408 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 1: are a lot of my modern scholars who feel like 409 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: this insistence earlier on in uh In texts, that that 410 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: Alan Hart was a lesbian rather than a transgender person 411 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: is actually because of transphobia in both the LGBT communities 412 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: and the medical community. And so if we're going by 413 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: how he defined himself after his transition, he referred to 414 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: himself as a man, and that's full stop. Yeah, when 415 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: even as a child it seemed like kind of referred 416 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: to himself as a boy. So, uh, as far as 417 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: I'm concerned, Mail at that point, yeah, I'm really glad 418 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 1: that and at the end of his life he was 419 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: able to uh settle in one place for a while 420 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: and maybe find a little more peace than he had 421 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: had earlier on. Yeah, especially um, you know, when you 422 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: consider like some of the great contributions he made to medicine, 423 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: it seems such a pity that a person that is 424 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: working so much to help others as being tortured. Yeah. Well, 425 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 1: and at the time, the work that he was doing 426 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,360 Speaker 1: was really important to public health. Um. Once a treatment 427 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: became available for tuberculosis, it became hugely important to screen 428 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: people for tuberculosis so that people could be treated promptly 429 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: and we could try to cut down on the number 430 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: one the spread of the disease and number two the 431 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: mortality of the disease. So he did a really a 432 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: lot of work in trying to screen people on mass 433 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: for tuberculosis and and get people into treatment before they 434 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: even realized that they were sick. So he had huge 435 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 1: contributions to to public health in that way. Sadly, I 436 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: think all of his books are out of print. I 437 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: couldn't even find I couldn't even find Like sometimes you 438 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: can find old books that at archive dot org or somewhere, 439 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: and I couldn't even find them there. Um. I did 440 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: find like, uh, copies of his book on radiology that 441 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: we're being sold through used in rare booksellers for like 442 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: a hundred and forty five dollars or something. But I 443 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: couldn't find scans of that one either, so I think 444 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: those might be a neat read. I hope that you know, 445 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: as as he becomes a more prominent figure in history, 446 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: which has been the case over the last ten or 447 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: fifteen years, he's been a name that has come up 448 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: more often that me be someone will find there's neither 449 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: put them back into print, or if they are in 450 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: the public domain, now get them into a place where 451 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: we can read them see what they were like. Do 452 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 1: you also have listener mails room? Do I have a 453 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: listener postcards? So this postcard is actually a little bit old. 454 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes it takes a while for postcards to get to 455 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: us for some reason. I mean, they will be postmarked 456 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: a month of the moore they show up. Um. I'm 457 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: not sure why exactly that happens, but I have a 458 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 1: theory that there's a part of like the Atlanta Central 459 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: post Office Hub where they just slide off the postcards 460 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: and they just sit there for a while. I thought, 461 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: maybe you're gonna say they were sitting there reading them. 462 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: I'm just making that up. I don't mean to disparage 463 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: the postal service in anyway. But I just postcards do 464 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: seem to take forever, so we love to get them, 465 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: but be aware that we might not see them for 466 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: a while. This one is from high and it's still 467 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: It's a dated July third, eighteen sixty three, and then 468 00:25:54,280 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: the cards crossed out says, high ladies, greetings from Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. 469 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: I'm a huge Civil War buff and flew across the 470 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: country from the l A area to be here for 471 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: the celebration of the one fiftieth anniversary of the battle. 472 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 1: I've been looking forward to this since i was thirteen 473 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,479 Speaker 1: years old, and I'm thirty now, so it's kind of 474 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: fulfilling a half lifelong dream. I wanted to share this 475 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: with you Today. Thousands of reenactors blocked the mile of 476 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: pickets charge ending here at the quote high water mark, 477 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: the closest the Confederacy came to winning the battle and 478 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: subsequently the war. Today the Yankees met the ReBs with 479 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: claps and cheers instead of cannons and muskets. Was an 480 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: amazing site to behold. Thanks for your all your Civil 481 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: War podcasts. And then we get a little heart and 482 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: a peace sign and a smiley faced tie and the 483 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: picture on the other side is of the high Water 484 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: Market Getty furg It's very cool. I'm accidentally kidding my 485 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: microphone with postcard too, because she's sharing with the rest 486 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: of the clubs. I'm trying to show everyone the cold picture. 487 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: So I love that story. It is to really neat. 488 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: I remember when that was going on. I my Facebook 489 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: feed because I do a lot of costuming. It was 490 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: just filled of like people sadly bemoaning the fact that 491 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: they had not been able to make it up there 492 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: for it, so they were they were watching everyone else's 493 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: feeds that were there and watching their pictures come through. 494 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: And let me tell you how much I would rather 495 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: watch other people in costume doing that. Because July is 496 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: hot and civil war attired. If you, especially if you 497 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: are a woman person, there's some layers, many many layers. 498 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: I would find that to be unbearable. You would not, 499 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: you like, I don't mind being hot at all. I 500 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: mean I live in the South for a reason, and 501 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: I really like all those layers. They were pretty. You know, 502 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: you kind of get like your brain copes with it. 503 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 1: At that point when you reach a certain degree of 504 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 1: like boiling hot, you just kind of switch off. And 505 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: go somewhere else, or at least I do how this 506 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: might be a certain symptom of the exhaustion, So I 507 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: like to think of it more like I'm a navy feel. Okay, 508 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: we can go for that. If you would like to 509 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,360 Speaker 1: write to us, you can do so. 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