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Speaker 1: Well, right, when you think you've heard it all, you'll

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Speaker 1: find out you're nowhere near hearing it all. A man

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Speaker 1: comes home to find his wife murdered, not just murdered,

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Speaker 1: but with an axe still embedded in her forehead, lying

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Speaker 1: in her own bed, seemingly asleep at the time of

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Speaker 1: the incident. But to make matters worse, her three year look.

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Speaker 1: To make matters worse, her three year old little girl

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Speaker 1: at home when mommy was murdered. We knew that because

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Speaker 1: the baby has blood on her clothing and she tried

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Speaker 1: to dress herself, putting on two sweaters backwards, clearly not

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Speaker 1: getting help from mommy. What happened? An axe embedded in

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Speaker 1: her forehead. I'm easy, Grace. This is Crime Stories. Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace Bright and Police responded to a

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Speaker 1: nine one one call from a neighbor of James Cross

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Speaker 1: Nick Jr. When officers arrived at the neighbor's house, they

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Speaker 1: were ultimately led to the home of James, his wife, Kathleen,

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Speaker 1: and their daughter Sarah, who resided at thirty three Del

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Speaker 1: Rio Drive. Officers arrived at the house to find Kathleen deceased.

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Speaker 1: She died from a single blow to her head from

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Speaker 1: an axe. Gary Printy was an investigator on the case

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Speaker 1: since day one. Print He says he'll never forget arriving

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Speaker 1: to the scene that day. It was not a pleasant scene.

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Speaker 1: It was the first one I had ever seen as violent,

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Speaker 1: and I hope I never see another one. The police

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Speaker 1: knocked on our door after midnight. Firstly they said there

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Speaker 1: has been a They didn't call her a murder, a homicide.

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Speaker 1: I know, will Kathy, Wow, you're hearing from our friends

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Speaker 1: at w r OC News eight. That was reporter Kela

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Speaker 1: Green and others what happened to Kathleen? Kathleen found in

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Speaker 1: her bed with an axe embedded deeply in her forehead.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like the stuff that horror movies are made off.

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Speaker 1: You don't expect that in real life. For this lovely

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Speaker 1: wife and mother to be found with an axe embedded

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Speaker 1: in her forehead. It reminds you of the horrible histories

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Speaker 1: of nursy rhymes like um, how does it go, Doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall forty wax Lizzie, how does it go? Doctor Bethany?

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Speaker 1: That's right? And the Grimm's fairy tales where children are

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Speaker 1: shoved in ovens and all the horrible fairy tales that

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Speaker 1: we heard growing up. I do not remember the forty weeve. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, doctor Bethany Marshall. As much as I appreciate

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Speaker 1: you and all your many, many, many degrees and papers,

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Speaker 1: I had to go to Jackie Howard in the studio.

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Speaker 1: How does it go, Jackie, Lizzie? What mother? Forty? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Thank you? See, I had to go to her institutional

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Speaker 1: memory of horror. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. My point is it's

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Speaker 1: almost too awful to take in with me an all

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Speaker 1: star paddle, and boy do I mean it joining me.

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Speaker 1: Cloyd Steiger thirty six years, Seattle PD, twenty two years

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Speaker 1: homicide author of Seattle's Forgotten serial Killer, Gary Jean Grant.

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Speaker 1: You can find him at Cloyd Steiger dot com. Kathleen Murphy,

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Speaker 1: she knows her way around in North Carolina courtroom and beyond.

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Speaker 1: Renowned psycho analyst out of LA. Doctor Bethany Marshall at

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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall dot com, South Carolina medical examiner and

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Speaker 1: author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. And you may not

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Speaker 1: agree with me, but I gotta tell you that is

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Speaker 1: quite the read homicide investigation field guy. Doctor Michelle Dupree

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Speaker 1: joining me right now, reporter with The Democrat and Chronicle,

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Speaker 1: former co author of an upcoming book on this very

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Speaker 1: topic at kraussnet dot com. Nancy Monahan, Nancy, Before I

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Speaker 1: go to you, I've got to go to doctor Michelle Dupree,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle, an axe embedded in this woman's forehead and

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Speaker 1: she couldn't have been more defenseless. She apparently was asleep

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Speaker 1: in bed, Doctor Michelle. What, Doctor Michelle Dupree, does an

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Speaker 1: axe actually, at one blow with an axe to the skull,

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Speaker 1: I assume, depending on the velocity, would crack the skull

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Speaker 1: and go directly into the break. Yes. Absolutely, What a

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Speaker 1: gruesome scene that must have been, that world of obviously

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Speaker 1: through the skull and gone deep into the actual surface

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Speaker 1: of the brain, causing obviously extensive damage and death. How

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Speaker 1: much force would it require to actually crack the skull?

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Speaker 1: For instance, I've seen cases where someone had been bludge

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Speaker 1: and dead and the medical examiner would state, for instance,

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Speaker 1: this is the same velocity as you would get from

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Speaker 1: a car crash at sixty mph. What velocity would it

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Speaker 1: take with an ax single blow to crack open the skull,

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Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupree. Because the axe is a sharp force instrument,

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Speaker 1: it is going to crack the skull with a little

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Speaker 1: less force than you might expect. However, our skulls are

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Speaker 1: very thick, and it would still require an extensive amount

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Speaker 1: of force to do that. You know, when you say

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Speaker 1: our skulls are very thick, would you explain what you

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Speaker 1: mean by that? Because every time somebody feels a little

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Speaker 1: lump or they have a pimple or assist, they think

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Speaker 1: they have brain cancer or a tumor. But there is

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Speaker 1: a very thick skull between your skin and your brain.

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Speaker 1: So how thick is the skull? What, Nancy? The skull

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Speaker 1: actually varies in thickness depending on where we are talking about.

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Speaker 1: So the location though of this in this case is

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Speaker 1: the forehead, and the forehead is one of the thicker parts,

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Speaker 1: approximately a quarter of an inch to three quarters of

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Speaker 1: an inch thick in places. And the skull is made

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Speaker 1: of course bone. But what do you compare the density

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Speaker 1: of the skull too? Is it like a board, is

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Speaker 1: it like cement? What's the density? Well, that's the interesting question.

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Speaker 1: I've never really quite thought about it. It's more these

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Speaker 1: that's the first time I've thought about it. Doctor. The

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Speaker 1: density is certainly more like a board rather than a concrete.

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Speaker 1: It is not as hard as concrete would be. And again,

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Speaker 1: because the bone is somewhat porous, it is going to

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Speaker 1: be less dense than that. Guys, we are talking about

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Speaker 1: a beautiful young woman, Kathleen chrst Snack found bludgeen dead. Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't think bludgend is the right word. She was

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Speaker 1: attacked with an axe, one blow to the head. The

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Speaker 1: weapon interesting found, wiped clean of any fingerprints, and a

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Speaker 1: window broken from the outside. To Chloe Steiger, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's really an art to determine was the window broken

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Speaker 1: from the inside or the outside? Was a window screen

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Speaker 1: slashed from the inside or the outside? Explain how we

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Speaker 1: know a window was broken from the outside. This is

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Speaker 1: not like somebody broke it from the inside trying to

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Speaker 1: make it look like a break in, right or you

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Speaker 1: have to know that you can tell the difference and

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Speaker 1: the most obvious difference. So when you break a window

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Speaker 1: from the outside, is that most of the broken glasses

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Speaker 1: on the inside, because that's the way the pivots would

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Speaker 1: take it. So that's actually a pretty simple thing to do.

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Speaker 1: And it's really common with people trying to stage crimes

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Speaker 1: to that they that they break a window or something.

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Speaker 1: The question you have to have is it's a broken window,

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Speaker 1: was there an opening picking up somebody to crawl in

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Speaker 1: without getting all cut up or not? And if there's not,

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Speaker 1: or what about big enough to get reach your hand

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Speaker 1: in to unlock the window and then lift the window. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's another issue. Many times I've been asked, how do

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Speaker 1: you tell off's window screen has been sliced from the

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Speaker 1: outside of the inside. You may not be able to

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Speaker 1: tell with the naked eye, but once you put the

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Speaker 1: screen under a microscope, you can actually see which way

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Speaker 1: the metal in the screen is bent. If it's spent

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Speaker 1: toward the inside of the room, it was slash from

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Speaker 1: the outside. If it's bent and it's you really do

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Speaker 1: have to look under a microscope to see this outward

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Speaker 1: toward the yard or the outside, then you know it

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Speaker 1: was staged and it was cut from the inside. Let's

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Speaker 1: go to our veteran reporter, Nancy Monahan, formerly with a

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Speaker 1: Democrat and Chronicle and co author on an upcoming book

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Speaker 1: on her murder. Nancy, thanks so much for being with us.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's a real pleasure to have someone so

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Speaker 1: close to the case to explain a lot of the

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Speaker 1: evidence to us. Tell me about the severity of the attack.

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Speaker 1: What can you tell me about the attack on Kathleen

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Speaker 1: Crossneck just twenty nine years old? It was one axe

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Speaker 1: blow to her left temple and how far that wound went.

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Speaker 1: I think it was pretty significant, and she was asleep,

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Speaker 1: as most axe murder victims are. It's hard to chase

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Speaker 1: down somebody with an axe, so you wouldn't pick an

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Speaker 1: axe if you had to chase somebody down the street.

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Speaker 1: I do want to mention that the broken window was downstairs.

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Speaker 1: It was the door from the garage to the kitchen

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Speaker 1: that was broken. Hold on, hold on, let me let

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Speaker 1: me digest what you just said. So the broken window

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Speaker 1: not in the bedroom. It was downstairs. It was the

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Speaker 1: door between the garage into the kitchen. So it's the

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Speaker 1: door from the garage into the kitchen. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: that garage had a one of the doors that you

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Speaker 1: have to have a code to, or you have to

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Speaker 1: have an access or it may have even been left open.

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Speaker 1: It was open. There was no yes, it was. It

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Speaker 1: was easy to get access to the garage. The door

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Speaker 1: to the garage was locked. And let me think, now,

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Speaker 1: from the garage into the kitchen. So do we know

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Speaker 1: which side the glass was on. Yes, they determined that

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Speaker 1: had been broken from the outside. Do you think the

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Speaker 1: person crawled through the door or they just broke the

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Speaker 1: door in order to get to the door handle, just

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Speaker 1: broke the window to get to the handle. Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, the gorgeous young wife of a business

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Speaker 1: executive found dead in her own bed. She was asleep

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Speaker 1: at the time she was attacked with an axe. Joining

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Speaker 1: me Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family attorney, Cloyd Stiger, doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, doctor Michelle Duprie, and Nancy Monahan. I'm very

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Speaker 1: curious Cloyd Stiger how they could tell she was asleep

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Speaker 1: at the time she was attacked. I would guess it

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Speaker 1: was because the way the body was laying in the

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Speaker 1: lack of any defensive wounds or anything like that. And

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Speaker 1: if it wasn't her temple, and I thought it was

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Speaker 1: in her forty, maybe she was laying on her side

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Speaker 1: and it just looked like she had not reacted at all.

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Speaker 1: Her arms and legs were down beside her. Not. There

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Speaker 1: was no struggle at all. That's what I would guess.

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Speaker 1: You know what's really interesting to me, so many facts

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Speaker 1: in details, Doctor Bethany Marshall. The axe was wiped clean.

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Speaker 1: Now that is a big red flag to me, because,

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Speaker 1: yes it's anecdotal, it's based on all the cases I've investigated,

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Speaker 1: it tried or covered. But typically random attackers do not

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Speaker 1: take time to stage the saint to clean up the weapon.

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Speaker 1: They leave the weapon in her skull, but they wipe

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Speaker 1: it clean. Or is the weapon still in her skull?

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Speaker 1: Nancy Monahan, Oh yes, yes it was. Wow. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall, who would think to wipe clean the

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Speaker 1: murder weapon? Well, this tells me that this was not

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Speaker 1: a crime of opportunity, right, This is not somebody who's

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Speaker 1: just broke into the house to ransack and find jewelry

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Speaker 1: or cash. This is not somebody who just wanted to

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Speaker 1: commit a rape homicide. I'm assuming she wasn't sexually violated

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Speaker 1: that I haven't read that anywhere. So whoever did this

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Speaker 1: knew her, and I would want to know who had

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Speaker 1: she been in contact with? Did she have any admirers?

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Speaker 1: Was she having an affair? Was she being stalked. Was

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Speaker 1: there a person in the neighborhood who had taken a

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Speaker 1: special interest in her? The fact that somebody in betted

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Speaker 1: an axe in her forehead and then wiped up the

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Speaker 1: evidence means that this is somebody who had tremendous rage

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Speaker 1: towards her, And to me, that speaks of a crime

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Speaker 1: of passion, whether it's espoused a stalker, an ex boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: but somebody who took a very special interest in her

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Speaker 1: and felt that she had maybe jilted them or rejected

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Speaker 1: them in some way. I'm also curious too, Nancy Monahan

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Speaker 1: a report from a reporter Democrat and Chronicle. Nancy, was

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Speaker 1: she sex assaulted or had anything been stolen from the home? No?

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Speaker 1: To both, she was not and nothing had been taken.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine the shock it would bring on when

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Speaker 1: you come in and find your wife dead with the

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Speaker 1: axe still embedded in her head. Doctor Bethany Marshall, I

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Speaker 1: just keep saying, it doesn't even sound real. It sounds

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Speaker 1: like it's from a horror maybe, right, So you imagine

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Speaker 1: her husband comes home around five PM, right. I imagine

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Speaker 1: he was an executive. I think he had a doctorate.

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Speaker 1: He comes in he sees his wife with an act

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Speaker 1: embedded in her skull. This was so long ago that

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering, are there any nine one one calls it?

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Speaker 1: Has anyone spoken to his demeanor when he called the police?

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Speaker 1: Did he seem calm? Did he seemed agitated? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that type of behavioral evidence would be so

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Speaker 1: important in beginning to try to solve this crime, since

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Speaker 1: in these sorts of crimes, you always looked at the

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Speaker 1: spouse first. So I'm wondering what how did he behave

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Speaker 1: after he found his wife with the axe embedded in

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Speaker 1: her skull? Are there any detectives or policemen who were

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Speaker 1: working that working that particular crime who spoke to that. Well,

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Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. In every homicide investigation, the first place

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Speaker 1: cops the detective's look as at spouse, the boyfriend, the ex,

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Speaker 1: the x spouse, and as you were pointing out anybody

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Speaker 1: in the neighborhood or at work that had been paying

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Speaker 1: special attention to her. Take a listen to what her sister,

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Speaker 1: Annette Slauser tells Wham thirteen. James Krausnick told police he'd

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Speaker 1: come home from his Kodak job to find his twenty

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Speaker 1: nine year old wife dead with an axe embedded in

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Speaker 1: her skull. The couple's three and a half year old

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Speaker 1: daughter had spent the day alone in the home with

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Speaker 1: her mother's corpse. I remember dropping to my knees in

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Speaker 1: my dorm room. I just couldn't believe it. She was

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Speaker 1: my favorite sister and my best friend. To Nancy Monaghan,

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Speaker 1: former reporter Democrat and Chronicle and who has also co

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Speaker 1: authored a book on this murder, Nancy Question, the sister

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Speaker 1: gets the call about the murder and the three year

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Speaker 1: old little girl was in her crib all day with

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Speaker 1: her mother dead. She was not in her crib. She

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Speaker 1: was in the house all day long, wandering around. She

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Speaker 1: had been in the bedroom, saw her mother actually had

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Speaker 1: a little blood on her clothing, but didn't recognize that

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Speaker 1: her as her mother, And she was wandering around the

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Speaker 1: house all day. By the time her husband, Kathy's husband

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Speaker 1: came home, little Sarah was back in her bedroom and

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Speaker 1: she had tried to address herself. She had on two

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Speaker 1: sweaters backwards. Oh you know what, just that detail. It's

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Speaker 1: so heartbreaking to Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer to

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Speaker 1: leave the three year old little girl wandering around the

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Speaker 1: house all day long. She goes and finds her mom's body.

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Speaker 1: Nancy Mona had clarified that because she actually had blood.

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Speaker 1: I think she said some of the little girl's clothing,

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Speaker 1: so she had made it to her mom and had

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Speaker 1: come to try to dress herself, putting on her sweaters backwards.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's the kind of thing a child never forgets.

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, that child will never forget that experience. And Nancy,

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Speaker 1: with that child wandering around the house for the entire day,

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Speaker 1: I just wonder what did she see? And at three

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Speaker 1: and a half years old, what has she vocalized at

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Speaker 1: that point to the police officers, Because at that age

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Speaker 1: she's old enough to tell somebody what she saw and

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Speaker 1: what she interviews. You know, I have a question to

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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall, what can you tell me about the

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Speaker 1: brutality behind twenty nine year old Kathleen's axe murder and

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Speaker 1: what does that tell you about her killer? He tells

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Speaker 1: me that the killer had a relationship with her, and

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Speaker 1: what I mean by that was maybe in love with her,

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Speaker 1: had a preoccupation with her, was fascinated by her, felt

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Speaker 1: rejected by her. But whoever put this axe in her skull,

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Speaker 1: was obsessed with this victim. You don't kill somebody in

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Speaker 1: that kind of an overkill, brutal kind of way unless

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Speaker 1: you have feelings right, feelings of rejection, rage and the hostility,

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Speaker 1: feeling jilted in some way, and unless those feelings have

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Speaker 1: been brewing for some time. So whoever did this knew

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Speaker 1: her over months or even years, Nancy, Because these feelings

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Speaker 1: don't just crop up in five minutes. You don't just

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Speaker 1: break into a house start looking for cash and jewelry.

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Speaker 1: See a woman and oh I am so enraged, I'm

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Speaker 1: just going to put an axe in her forehead. No,

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Speaker 1: you are going to have a relationship with that person.

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Speaker 1: That's what the brutality tells me. Nancy Monahan, former reporter

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Speaker 1: with Democrat and Chronicle who has extensively researched the murder.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the brutality of Kathleen's murder. I've done

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Speaker 1: a lot of research on axe murders, and they are

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Speaker 1: they are very personal. They are always filled with rage,

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Speaker 1: and I mean it is a statement well beyond any

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Speaker 1: other weapon that someone someone can use and all it takes,

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Speaker 1: and all it took in this case was that one

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Speaker 1: major blow that cracked her skull open. Interestingly, there was

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Speaker 1: no blood on the wall, you know, it didn't spat

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Speaker 1: or there was certainly after the you know, after the

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Speaker 1: axe went in, the blood did run down, and there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of blood on her and the bed um.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's what the young girl, Sarah, the daughter saw. Well,

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Speaker 1: we also knew this there was premeditation because unless they

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Speaker 1: sleep with an axe by their bed, somebody, as Jackie's

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Speaker 1: pointing out, had to bring that axe upstairs. Not only

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Speaker 1: that they kill her, thought to wipe the axe clean.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, of course, she was just

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Speaker 1: a wonderful girl, I mean, or on going intelligent. That's

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Speaker 1: there as it went on, you know, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: want me fold out for sure that he didn't never

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Speaker 1: passed his he got his doctors well then when I

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Speaker 1: knew them, because he lied to her that he had.

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Speaker 1: All the time you are hearing Robert Schloss or Kathleen's father,

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Speaker 1: he's talking to the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle to Nancy Monahan.

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Speaker 1: You know, it may have been considered irrelevant at the time,

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Speaker 1: but I find it very relevant when you find out

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Speaker 1: for all the time you have courted and been married.

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Speaker 1: Your husband has been lying to you about earning his PhD.

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Speaker 1: What can you tell me? Nancy Monahan joining me, who

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Speaker 1: has co authored a book on Kathleen Crossneck's murder. Nancy,

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Speaker 1: what did he claim he had his PhD in economy?

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Speaker 1: He was a pH He said he was a PhD economist.

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Speaker 1: He had not, in fact earned his PhD, which was

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Speaker 1: one of the really striking issues in this whole affair.

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Speaker 1: He did, and he had finished his dissertation. He had

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Speaker 1: done all the coursework. All he had to do was

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Speaker 1: make a few changes in his dissertation, which he never did.

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Speaker 1: He lied to his co workers at Lynchburg. He got

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Speaker 1: the job at Kodak based on the fact that he

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Speaker 1: had the PhD or said he had the PhD. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And he never did. And even when Kodak was was

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Speaker 1: pressing him to show proof that he had the PhD

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Speaker 1: after he had started working. This was a major issue

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Speaker 1: in the household and at Kodak because he was under

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Speaker 1: pressure to produce it. He kept saying that that it

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Speaker 1: had been and there was some paperwork mix up at

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Speaker 1: Colorado State where he had attended and done all his work,

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Speaker 1: and to the end he claimed that he had the PhD,

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Speaker 1: but he didn't. I'm very interested in his lying about

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Speaker 1: who he really is. I'm really curious about what he

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Speaker 1: claimed he wrote his dissertation about, because I remember how

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Speaker 1: hard my sister, who went to the Wharton School and

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Speaker 1: actually became a professor there, how hard she worked getting

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Speaker 1: her PhD. I mean it is hard. I mean technically speaking,

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, we're juris doctorates because we went through three

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Speaker 1: years of law school. But I don't think many the

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Speaker 1: lawyers had to write a dissertation. It's very, very hard

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Speaker 1: to do, Kathleen Murphy. I couldn't imagine it except to say,

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Speaker 1: Nancy that do you remember studying for the bar and

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Speaker 1: taking the bar Exan and knowing that if you didn't pass,

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Speaker 1: you weren't going to be that practicing lawyer. It's intense

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Speaker 1: and it is a professional Kathleen Murphy, I can't. Maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm blocked got out, but the bar either I staid

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Speaker 1: two or three days, you'd have to go back. You

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Speaker 1: didn't finish it in one day, and it would take

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Speaker 1: eight hours. And I remember going in and I would

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Speaker 1: not even get up while we were taking the test.

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Speaker 1: To even go to the bathroom because I did not

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Speaker 1: literally want to miss one minute of that could risk

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Speaker 1: not completing it or not being able to go back

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Speaker 1: over and check my answers. And it was almost like

364
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Speaker 1: a lost track of time and space during the bar.

365
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Speaker 1: It was like I sat down and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: the day the eight hours were over, and when I

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Speaker 1: finished the bar Kathleen, it was being held in Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: and had to drive back to my apartment in make And,

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Speaker 1: which was about a two hour drive. I got in

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Speaker 1: the car and I had to get out from behind

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Speaker 1: the wheel. Somebody else had to drive, and I had

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Speaker 1: to lay down in the back seat because it felt

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Speaker 1: like the moment I had finished the bar after whatever

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Speaker 1: two or three days and sat down in the car,

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Speaker 1: it felt like somebody hit me in the head with

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Speaker 1: a cement brick. And I mean, I had never felt

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Speaker 1: anything like it in my life. I could hardly even

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Speaker 1: see that's when it kicked in. But I remember Kathleen

379
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: going to get my L L M. A. M. Yu.

380
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: We had paper after paper after paper. But I guess

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Speaker 1: you could compare it to that. Doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst

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Speaker 1: out of Beverly Hills, doctor Bethany. Why do people lie

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Speaker 1: about their credentials? I mean he had a college degree.

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Speaker 1: He could have gone back and finished the dissertation, made

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Speaker 1: the change. You heard what Nancy Mona had said, but

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Speaker 1: he didn't. He chose to lie about it instead. This

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Speaker 1: guy falls into a very special category. And he's not alone.

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Speaker 1: He's what we call ABD ABD is all that dissertation.

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Speaker 1: There's a subject. Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

390
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Speaker 1: wait wait wait, I've never heard that before and a

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Speaker 1: BD I'm writing it down. Oh but the dissertation, Okay,

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Speaker 1: go ahead. I actually treated a couple a number of

393
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Speaker 1: years ago where the husband claimed that he got his

394
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Speaker 1: dissertation and the wife found out and I learned all

395
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Speaker 1: about It's a group of people who go through all

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Speaker 1: of their training and for some reason, they do not

397
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: want to defend their dissertation. And by defend, defending a

398
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Speaker 1: dissertation means that you've already written, met, you already have

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Speaker 1: your committee of three people. Defending doesn't mean that you

400
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: talk about your dissertation. You have to sit down and

401
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,719
Speaker 1: listen to your committee criticize and tear apart your dissertation.

402
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: So you have to hear what they have to say

403
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Speaker 1: about your body of work. But think about this, Nancy.

404
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: So if I think of my education, I have three

405
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: years of college, four years of graduate school, and in

406
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Speaker 1: sixteen years of postgraduate in order to become a psychoanalyst.

407
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Speaker 1: Imagine going through all of that and not being able

408
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Speaker 1: to sit down and hear what other people have to

409
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Speaker 1: say about your body of work. I mean, what I've

410
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: seen with people who are ABD is that they are

411
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Speaker 1: very avoidant individuals. And usually they are avoidant in every

412
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Speaker 1: part of their life. They do not want to be criticized,

413
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Speaker 1: They do not want people to look down on them.

414
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Speaker 1: Sometimes they have social anxiety. So if Crowsneck falls into

415
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Speaker 1: this category, this is not the only thing he's lying

416
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: about in his life. There are probably many things that

417
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 1: he has not faced or been responsible about. And this

418
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: is not a man who can tolerate criticism. Because he

419
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: did not want to present his dissertation to his committee,

420
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Speaker 1: to Dancy Monahan, who has actually written a book about

421
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Speaker 1: this murder. Nancy, what was his undergrad degree in? And

422
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure his wife, Kathleen Crossneck would have loved him

423
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Speaker 1: if he had said, I'm working on my PhD. I

424
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: don't think that would have changed. His family code would

425
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: probably have hired him anyway, knowing that he was working

426
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Speaker 1: on his dissertation. What was his undergrad degree in if

427
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: you know Nancy, it was some sort of a business degree.

428
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Speaker 1: But you know, remember Kathleen did not know this in

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00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,959
Speaker 1: the beginning. He went right from Colorado State and his

430
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: dissertation to his teaching job at Lynchburg and was saying

431
00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 1: that he was working on it. His colleagues knew that

432
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: he didn't have it and that he was supposedly working

433
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: on it, just filing the corrections. So it was a

434
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: good while. In fact, I believe it was after they

435
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: moved to Rochester before Kathleen found out that there was

436
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: no degree, and it was only a few months before

437
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: her death, you know, and just very I wouldn't say obsessed,

438
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: but I'm fascinated with a desire to lie. And sometimes

439
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany, my children will come home and say so

440
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: and so Johnny said that his dad works for special

441
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: ops and that he this and he that, and he

442
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 1: has you know, a treasure and chest of gold coins

443
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: hid and blah blah, And I say, children, wait, wa wait,

444
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: be nice to Johnny, because not his real name, because

445
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: I believe people boast and lie to make themselves feel

446
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: better about themselves because they obviously have some kind of insecurity.

447
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: They can't just be who they are. Why do people

448
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: themselves up, for instance, on their resume, not just to

449
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: get a job, but in lies. Why do you lie

450
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: about it? Why do people lie? For three different reasons. First,

451
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: there's the pathological liar. The pathological liar says whatever comes

452
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: to their mind to actually manipulate the people around them.

453
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: They're more callous, manipulative, and they kind of fall into

454
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: this category of puffery and they don't think they'll be

455
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: caught for their lies. The second category of lying is

456
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: what we call compulsive lying. Compulsive lying is when you

457
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: quickly say whatever comes to your mind in order to

458
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: please another person, Like if I had I saw this

459
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: couple where the wife would say to the husband, did

460
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: you get the milk at the grocery store And he's saying, hey, yeah,

461
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: I got it, and she looked in the refrigerator there

462
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: was no milk, and he wanted to please her in

463
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: that moment, not thinking that she would catch him. We

464
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: go back to the first category. I think this guy

465
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: was probably pretty sociopathic in different areas of his life,

466
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: and probably lied extensively and had this whole kind of

467
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: an alter ego or personality that he presented to the

468
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: people around him. And a part of it was a

469
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: cover for the avoidance of not, you know, finishing the dissertation.

470
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't be surprised if he told other stories

471
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: about himself too, more in that manipulative kind of way.

472
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: Just it's puffery, but it's also manipulation. He's manipulating how

473
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: people see him for his own gratification without any sense

474
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: of what that's going to do to the lives of

475
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: those around him. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace welcome back.

476
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: I means he Grace. This is crime Stories. What happened

477
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: Kathleen Krassneck found dead in her own bed just twenty

478
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: nine years old, with an act still embedded deeply in

479
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: her forehead. I find it. It's interesting and probitive. It

480
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,479
Speaker 1: proved something that she was attacked in her face in

481
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: her forehead. Of course, you'd have to be a shrink

482
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: to figure out what that means. But I know this.

483
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: Although her husband, James Kraussneck, had the higher paying job

484
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: that he wanted trouble was brewing. His bosses at Kodak

485
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: were asking him about his PhD. He kept promising to

486
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: give them evidence that he had in fact gotten the degree.

487
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: Pressure was mounting at work, he became distant at home.

488
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: Wife Kathy actually told her friends he would come home

489
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: from work angry. Police later said it appeared he had

490
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: been sleeping in the den. The marriage strained, Kathy had

491
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: started talking about leaving and taking Sarah home to Michigan.

492
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: So many factors swirling around the murder of Kathleen Krausneck,

493
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: just twenty nine years old at the time of her death,

494
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: and then a twist in the case. Brighton police renewed

495
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: their efforts on the case four years ago and listing

496
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: help from the FBI. What led to the arrest today

497
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: has not been revealed, but Kathleen's sister believes she knows

498
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: the motive. I believe, knowing my sister, she was all

499
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: about education that Jim did not actually pass his verbal dessertation,

500
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: so he did not earn his PhD, and he lied

501
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: about it, and he was calling himself doctor Krausnick. When

502
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: she found out, I am certain she confronted him on it.

503
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: She snapped and I believe that's when he killed her.

504
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: Kathleen Cross next ninety two year old father, still alive,

505
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: found out the news today. He's charged with murder. He

506
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: posted bail and I think a lot of us will

507
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: remember talking to police that night that it appeared that

508
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: they made it look whoever did it, made it look

509
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: like there'd been a burglary in the house, but there

510
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: was always doubt. You're hearing our friends at Wham thirteen.

511
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: That was Doug Mbs talking. Not only Doug, but you're

512
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: hearing Kathleen's sister as well. Murder over a pH D.

513
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: That's a little far fast, you know, when people go

514
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: that far too almost get their PhD, to get through

515
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: all that education, you'd think they were well reasoned and

516
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: wouldn't commit a murder. But take a listen to this.

517
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: The trial of the husband accused in the Brighton axe

518
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: murder could hinge on what a nationally known doctor has

519
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: to say about one small but key detail. Doctor Michael

520
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: Baden is known as the celebrity pathologist. The expert has

521
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: conducted over twenty thousand autopsies and investigated the assassinations of

522
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: President John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Junior now

523
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 1: Brighton Police say the timeline is crucial. Thirteen Wham reports

524
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: that James Krausnek told authorities his wife and daughter were

525
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: sleeping when he left for work at thirty am. His

526
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: wife died of a single blow to her head with

527
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: an axe. After an autopsy, the medical examiner ruled the

528
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: time of death was actually between two thirty and nine

529
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: thirty am, plenty of time for her husband to have

530
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: completed the crime before he left for work. And that's

531
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: why Brighton police are bringing on doctor Baton to confirm

532
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: the timeline. Wow, our friend's w e n Why that

533
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: was Olivia Jaqui too? Nancy Monahan, former reporter, Democrat and Chronicle. Nancy,

534
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: after all these years, why the police now believe Kathleen's husband,

535
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: James is the killer? And what can you tell me

536
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: about the evidence supporting their client. Well, the time of

537
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: death is clearly one of the big issues that they

538
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: are pursuing. And whoever was speaking there, it was correct

539
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: that they've originally said it was between two thirty and

540
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: nine thirty. He left the house at six thirty and

541
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: if they can narrow that time of death to anything,

542
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: that's close to being before six thirty. Their case obviously

543
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: is a whole lot stronger. That time of death has

544
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: always been one of the key factors in this case,

545
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: and doctor Boden has I don't know what his testimony

546
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: is going to be, but clearly he has found something

547
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 1: in the evidence that he has been able to narrow

548
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: the time of death. I don't know if he has

549
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: a precise time of death. I don't think so based

550
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: on everything I know about how they determine that, but

551
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: he has obviously found something that narrows it much closer.

552
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: And the other thing is there was no DNA in

553
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two when this happened. I know that they

554
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: have had said, sent several pieces of evidence and did

555
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: some DNA testing. However, it's really difficult to understand what

556
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: exactly they would if they found anything on the DNA

557
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 1: that would be useful now against mister Krausnak. He lived

558
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: there his day, DNA was all over the house, so

559
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: that's uncertain. They're keeping the evidence quite close to the

560
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: vest but time of death is clearly a key one.

561
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: Floyd Steiger thirty six years Seattle PD, including twenty two

562
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: years on homicide. Floyd yes, someone's DNA is going to

563
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: be found in their home. But what DNA since the

564
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: AX was what clean would you expect to find? Well,

565
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: that's an amazing thing about DNA technology today because just

566
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: a few years ago nothing, but because the advanced ability

567
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,919
Speaker 1: to collect minute mounts DNA and processes, now you would

568
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: expect to find touch DNA. And Nancy mcman was correct,

569
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 1: you know, finding the husband's touch DNA on an AX

570
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: that was presumably their act would be nothing. But what

571
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: would mean something is if they didn't find anybody else's

572
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: DAN on that act. Because even if you wiped it clean,

573
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: they're still going to be touch DNA on that act

574
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: unless you bleach it or you know, there's DNA is

575
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: still when you put closer the wash and come out,

576
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: they can find DNA on the cold and still. So

577
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: I mean that's yeah, the absence of someone else at

578
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: being on the AX haddle is huge. The case remained

579
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: unsolved for decades, but the FBI's Cold Case Working Group

580
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: took it back up in twenty sixteen and carried out

581
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: new forensic tests. Based on those forensic tests, detectives now

582
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: point the finger at the husband who lied about his

583
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: pH D exactly as Kloisiker says. No one else's DNA

584
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 1: turned up in the home, no rape, no theft, the

585
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: axed wipe claim that means the scene was staged. The

586
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,280
Speaker 1: grand jury on sild in indictment against the husband, charging

587
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: him with secondary murder. And the first of his four wives,

588
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: Nancy Monahan. Who were these other women? Are they still alive? Yes?

589
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: They are. He married his second wife in Michigan after

590
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: this happened. He took Sarah and went back to Michigan,

591
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: and that was in nineteen eighty two. And he married

592
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 1: his second wife in nineteen eighty six. They were only

593
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: married a very short time and a difficult situation. And

594
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: then he married his third wife around late eighties or

595
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,959
Speaker 1: maybe nineteen ninety. I don't have the date in front

596
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: of me, but we do know that they were married

597
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 1: about five years. And now he's married to his fourth wife.

598
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: They've been married, oh, at least ten years or so,

599
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: probably a little longer, and they're spilled together. We know

600
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: the Crassneck had been released one hundred thousand dollars bail

601
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 1: and he handed in his passport the trial. He's fled,

602
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 1: not guilty, and apparently his now adult daughter, Sarah is

603
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: signing with him. What about it, Nancy Monahan, Well, remember,

604
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: you know, this girl grew up from she was three

605
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 1: and a half when this happened, so she grew up

606
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: with her father. I think it's it's it's human nature.

607
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 1: If somebody tells you your father killed somebody, you aren't

608
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: going to believe it. And uh, you know, the tragic

609
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: situation here is with this girl. She has two little

610
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: daughters of her own, one born on her mother's birthday,

611
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 1: by the way, and whatever she remembers, if she remembers

612
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: something she did three years later, she was talking in

613
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: school about the day her mother died, but she never

614
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 1: there was never a counselor, there was no professional help

615
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: given to this girl. So whatever she knew, if she

616
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: what she knew, what she saw, is repressed. I would

617
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: suspect if you're a psychologist, I just don't understand why

618
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 1: they gave this guy bond. Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer.

619
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: Why did he get bond? I would say it's the

620
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: time lapse of this murder, and it's a highly circumstantial case.

621
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: I mean, if you so, you're the prosecutor, Nancy, and

622
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: I think that in these types of cases, it's very

623
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: frustrating when there's a bond issued, especially when he left

624
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 1: the state the very next day after the murder of

625
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 1: his wife. Well, I can tell you this. The fact

626
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: that the killer managed to walk free for all these years,

627
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: in my mind, makes the case even worse. I don't

628
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: understand the judge granting bond does not weigh in on

629
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: the facts to say it's a weak case, or it's

630
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: not a weak case, or it's circumstantial. The facts and

631
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 1: the law are up to the jury. They are the soul.

632
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: That's where they're the sole profits of the jury to

633
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 1: determine if the facts are weak or strong. This is

634
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: a murder indictment, and the fact that the killer has

635
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: managed to slither away for all these years should not

636
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 1: be a bonus and him get bond. Absolutely not. I'm

637
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: very upset about him getting He has pled not guilty

638
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: based on what we know. I'm just also questioning to

639
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:13,479
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall, why would the daughter's side with the dad. Well,

640
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: probably he's been weaving a tail all these years. Remember

641
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 1: he lied about a dissertation. He moved her out of

642
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: state the very next day after the homicide. And he's

643
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: probably been kind of working her over, so to speak,

644
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: all these years. You know, when we have a realization

645
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 1: about our parents, we don't have it in one instant.

646
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: I have patients come to therapy and they talk for

647
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: years about their childhood before they finally have insight into

648
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: who their parents are, especially if they have a very

649
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: personality disordered parent. So even though she's siding with her fathers,

650
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: she actually might secretly be sitting in court and kind

651
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: of listening to all the evidence and thinking, I wonder

652
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: if he did do it. You know, some people, when

653
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: they have presented to them that's contrary to what they

654
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: already believe, it will entrench their beliefs further. But she

655
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: may be one of these people where she's siding with

656
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: him to the public, but behind the scenes, talking to

657
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 1: her friends, talking to her therapist, talking to her confidence,

658
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: and trying to grapple with what right might really have

659
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 1: happened to her mother and to her on that fateful day.

660
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: I feel that there's gotten to be more evidence that

661
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: we don't know about supporting this grand jury indictment. The

662
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 1: fact that there was no one else's DNA there. The

663
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 1: scene was stage. He leaves immediately after the murderer and

664
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,919
Speaker 1: refuses to speak to police, then moves again. Did he ever,

665
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: Nancy Monahan, submit to a polygraph or did he ever

666
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: sit down and talk to police? And where was the funeral?

667
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 1: He talked to police that evening that night after right

668
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: after the discovery, but his parents drove from Michigan overnight

669
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,320
Speaker 1: and he had promised to come back to the police

670
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: station the next morning. He did not. He and Sarah

671
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: went with the parents and went back to Michigan. He

672
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: never had a polygraph. He was never interviewed by the police.

673
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: He did hire a lawyer who you know, as defense

674
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: lawyers do do not allow the police to talk to

675
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: him without conditions. So he No, he never spoke to

676
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 1: police until in twenty and sixteen, an investigator from the

677
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: Brighton Police Department did go to Gig Harbor in Washington

678
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: where he was living then with an FBI agent and

679
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: they did speak to him then at that time, I

680
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: do not know what he said. I do know it

681
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 1: was a bit of a lengthy interview, but I don't

682
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: know what he said. We also know that there were

683
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: marital problems. He was sleeping on the sofa. We also

684
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: know that he claimed he would let the daughter talk

685
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: to police and have an interview, but that never happened.

686
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: While he seemingly appeared to be cooperative, he never followed

687
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: through and left town. Well I know this. I know

688
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: that forensic pathologist, doctor Michael Boden, who I respect deeply,

689
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 1: don't always agree with him, is going to testify in

690
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: this case. Press conferences have gone on. Of course, his

691
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: daughter standing by him, which is going to have a

692
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,720
Speaker 1: huge impact on the jury. Who would assume she would

693
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 1: want justice for her mother? As it stands right now

694
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: in New York, if convicted on second degree murder, the

695
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: sentence is fifteen to twenty five years behind bars. We

696
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Gray scribe story signing off

697
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,