1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the Thing. 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: A few people have found the magic formula in publishing twice. 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: Janice Men is one of those people. As the new 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: editor in chief of Yon Winners US Weekly in two 5 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 1: thousand three, she put her Columbia journalism school trained brain 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: to work on celebrity culture and ended up transforming the 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: culture itself. She satisfied the thirst we never knew we 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: had for Lindsay Lohan, for the real truth about the 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: Real Housewives. She tripled circulation and generated billions in ad revenue. 10 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: Then she left to transform another magazine, The Hollywood Reporter. 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: It was a drab daily when Men took over in 12 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: two thousand ten. It sucked up to the studios and 13 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: basically nobody read it. Now it breaks news in every 14 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: issue I must read for industry players. So when I 15 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: was recently in l A shooting Will and Grace, I 16 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: wanted to get Janice Men's take on the business side 17 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: of TV trends. All these shows that are rebooting now, 18 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: like Murphy Brown, I mean, now we'll see the ends. 19 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: I think, like everything in Hollywood, they will exhaust it 20 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: to the point where everyone rolls their eyes, but then 21 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: you know ten percent of them will work out great. 22 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: And Will and Grace is the prime example of that. 23 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: It's like they never left and it worked and people 24 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 1: are happy with it. If these things are cynically done 25 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: thinking the audience still comes, but they don't put in 26 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: the effort to make it good, then the audience isn't there. 27 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: And I guess it's as simple as that. Right then. 28 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: I watch a lot of other shows, but like Stranger 29 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: Things and Black Mirror, I don't get it, and I 30 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: wonder if that's what's leading people back to the Will 31 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: and Gration would give me a net work half hour 32 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: like it's familiar, it's comfortable, I think, you know. I mean, 33 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: they're probably a hundred shows I've watched one episode of 34 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: at this point. I think that's probably incredibly frustrating if 35 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: you're a show creator, because there's no runway for someone 36 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: to fall in love with episode three where things get 37 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: really good, and I remember there's this hilariously sad statistic 38 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: about how long people listen to a song on like 39 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: Pandora or Spotify or whatever before they hit fast forward, 40 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: and it's three seconds. And it's like swiping right and 41 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: left on tender. It's what everyone's fighting against in Everything right, 42 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: Everything content, Catzenberg wants to do five minute contents from right, Yes, 43 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: I want, I want something. While you're online at Starbucks. 44 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: I got a show for you. It's five minutes long, 45 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: right right, there's a coffee waiting for you at the 46 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: end of that show. Correct in the arc of your 47 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: career of the last several years, do you find you 48 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: have less time to consume any entertainment problem? My god, 49 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: I think I think the Janismen have like groovy screenings 50 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: of movies at our house, celebrity friends or no. That 51 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: is that is a very much not the case. I 52 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: think there was always this running joke at The Holloway 53 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: Reporter that one day someone should do the Janisman Film 54 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: Festival showing all these movies that I have never watched 55 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: while I was while I was editing. I can't sit 56 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: here and embarrass myself on your Yes, but some of 57 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: the greatest movies of our generation have somehow not made 58 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: them in front of you. So I will often be watching, 59 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: you know, The Godfather on American Airlines, and you know, like, 60 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: this is really good good. This is one of the 61 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: things I think is interesting about editing. I'm not adept 62 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: at that many things, but I think I am adept 63 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 1: at this, which is being able to hear what other 64 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: people are saying about things to divine from that what 65 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: the story is without ever actually having to see the movie, 66 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: see the television show, but sort of understanding the trends 67 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: or cultural meaning or business story or whatever behind the product. 68 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: You became the executive editor of US Weekly in two 69 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: thousand two. Yes, I remember when I was making films, 70 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: mostly in the nineties. The studio they want a good push, 71 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: and they want a lot of pr and there's a 72 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: lot of insistence on you doing a lot of media 73 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: to sell the movie, and you do magazines and you're 74 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: terrified the writer might get you and they might not 75 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: get you. And US was very kind of soft and 76 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: very people ask whatever. And then when you took over, 77 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: they kind of you kind of juiced it up and 78 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: it became much more tough if you will, or what 79 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: language would you use? When you took over us? The 80 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: mission was to do what When I started this weekly, 81 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: I think I was uh, let's say, thirty one years old, 82 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: and um so I was an executive editor to this 83 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: famous and someone's an infamous editor named Bonnie Fuller. She'd 84 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: been this figure in publishing in New York in the 85 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: nineties where she'd gone from Glamour to Cosmo, and it 86 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: was always wanted another job and was always, you know, 87 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: one of these New York Post staples where people were 88 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: always leaking negative things about her. But she was considered 89 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: a little bit of a of a publishing savant, and 90 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: so she took over at US Weekly, hired me as 91 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: your executive editor. And she had a very sort of 92 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: aggressive story sense about her, and I believed in this 93 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: whole crazy thing of like you stay till four am 94 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: and you leave in the you know, the the sun's 95 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: coming out, like literally, bread trucks were delivering bread at 96 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: the places on the block and um. But she had 97 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: she and Yahn you know, you know Yan Yawn does 98 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: not abide by people with a large of ego. And 99 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: they had these unbelievable clashes and he grew to really 100 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: not like her and she grew to really not like him, 101 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: and they would have these spectacular fights over stupid things. 102 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: But for example, what was their editorial debate. You know, 103 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: Jan has a ton of celebrity friends, right, and she 104 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: was mean, Yes, and thought she was mean. And I 105 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: don't know if I would characterize this as true, but 106 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: he believed she was jealous of celebrities, you know, wanted 107 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: to be one of them. And and that manifested itself 108 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: in in like a harsher tone than he would have 109 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: chosen Um. On top of that kind of a unwillingness 110 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: to defer to his wishes. And you know, if you 111 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: work for John and I worked for him for seven 112 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: years and it was very peaceful. If you don't listen 113 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: to Jan, he will let you know he is unhappy 114 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: with you. And so they would have these these things 115 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: sound so trivial now, but he had wanted some design 116 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: change on the table of contents and Bonnie refused to 117 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 1: do it. And it's something that you know, nobody in 118 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: the world would have ever noticed, one way or another. 119 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: And she refused to do it, and he's screaming at 120 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: her and in his office and he's his beautiful wood 121 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: paneled office with you know, photos of his family, and 122 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: and shortly thereafter she was being a contract renegotiation with him. 123 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: This was like fourteen months into the job. She had 124 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: only signed a one year deal and it ends up 125 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: getting so heated that they have a cooling off period 126 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: where they don't speak. So I go off on a 127 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:20,359 Speaker 1: vacation to Italy and yes, and and then you know, 128 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, like Bonnie's desperately trying to reach me, 129 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: and like she just is one of these people you 130 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: can't get off the phone, and so I just wasn't 131 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: responding to her. Was like my first real vacation since 132 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: I had worked for her. And then suddenly I find 133 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: out she'd just quit. And Yan tracks me down at Italy, 134 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: and because John is John, he finds me in this 135 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: tiny restaurant outside of Florence and the waiter comes over. 136 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: He's like, I have a Mr. Winner for you on 137 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: the phone, and Jan offers me the job and like 138 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: I'm just like a nobody, and it's it's the whole 139 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: thing started freaked me out. I could I do this? 140 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: Why would I want to do this? Like I don't 141 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: want to be public, I don't want to be criticized. 142 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: And I saw how mercilessly Bonnie was treated in the press, 143 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: and I didn't know if I was comfortable with that. 144 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: And then what did he see in well, a solution 145 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: and easy solution right there, I wasn't Bonnie, but also 146 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: he and I got along well, I think yes, And 147 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: also I was the one who kept the place functional 148 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: well well amid Bonnie's chaos. And I think you you've 149 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: probably seen this a lot of places where you know, 150 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: where there is a very sort of um challenging number one, 151 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: and there there was a number two. You know, a 152 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: lot of the creative stuff and the ability to actually 153 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: get people to do things was done through me, and 154 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: then strength in your mind. Like I really liked John, 155 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: like Johan so Yan is, like Jan is permanently eighteen 156 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: years old or maybe even sixteen. He has so much 157 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: enthusiasm for everything, and he's like brash and rash and impulsive, 158 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: and I think for some people that can be very unsettling. 159 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: But there's sort of probably no better feeling that if 160 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: you suggest something to John, he's like that's great, and 161 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: he like bangs the table and he's like, oh my god, 162 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: that's genius. Let's do it. Let's do it. But then 163 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: like just as easily you could say, you know, Joan, 164 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: I had a second thought about that, maybe we should 165 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: do that, and he's like okay, and like walk out 166 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: the door, and like he you know, I think there's 167 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: certain things. I think US Weekly he realized, wasn't necessarily 168 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: his wheelhouse. It's not his baby, like Rolling Stone is 169 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: his baby that he raised. And US Weekly was going 170 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: to be the A T M. It's going to be 171 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: the cash machine for him. And he you know, there 172 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: was also part of this for John where I think he, 173 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: you know, this is a man who who's Rolling Stone 174 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: to find a generation and um and US Weekly was 175 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: another generation that he was not as fluent in, and 176 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: he realized that. But he had these moments of unbelievable inspiration. 177 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: He became really obsessed with The Bachelor when it's when 178 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: it came on ABC, and so you know, I know, 179 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: oh yeahn and so I never watched one single episode 180 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: of The Bachelor in my entire life, which is hilarious 181 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: given how many times it would then appear on the 182 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: cover of US Weekly. But Jan had this there was 183 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: this one. There's one bachelor named Andrew Firestone, who was 184 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,959 Speaker 1: I think the second Bachelor to come along and yawn 185 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: like he just this crazy whim He's like, I believe 186 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: in it. Let's put him on the cover. And so 187 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: you know, like all right, John, you know it's your magazine, 188 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: and we put Andrew Firestone on and he was he 189 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: was engaged to the win or and I can't believe 190 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: remember all their names, Jen Scheft. And it became the 191 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: highest selling issue of US Weekly in its history at 192 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: that time. And so, you know, one of the crazy 193 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: things was pre web metrics, and you know US Weekly 194 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: didn't even have a website at this time. And this 195 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: wasn't even that long ago. Was the thirteen years ago. 196 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: You would live and die by these news stand sales. 197 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: So you would put an issue out, let's say Thursday 198 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: night or Friday morning, and so you would get all 199 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: the scan data. And there these companies that do nothing 200 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: but scan UPCs. They count the UPCs for you from 201 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: the biggest retailers, and one of them is Walmart, and 202 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: you know the other one is you know, some aggregation 203 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: of maybe like Hudson News newsstands and airports and and 204 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: then you can calculate a sales figure from them. And 205 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: Yan who's like you know, Joan who I don't I think, 206 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: would tell you he loves money and you know the 207 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: things that come with money. He um, he was like 208 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: addicted to it, like the news stand sales, because it 209 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: was because it was a dollar. So let's every issue 210 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: you sold over five thousand copies, which is amazing to 211 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: think anyone can sell anything, you know, more than five 212 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: thousand copies save publication. Every issue over that he sold, 213 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: he made a dollar eighty five. And so you know, 214 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: after like let's say, after a year of me being there, 215 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: US Weekly had gone from losing money every issue where 216 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: it would sell like around two hundred seventy five thousand, 217 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: and Bonnie got it sometimes touching five hundred thousand. Then 218 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: it started to as much as one point one or 219 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: one point two million a week on the news stands. 220 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: You can imagine what that cash looked like, your money, 221 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: real money. So there's a sort of but you know, 222 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: I think probably you and your audience remember this kind 223 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: of exuberant I guess, in a rational exuberance at the 224 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: time of around celebrity. That that is gone. Now it's gone. 225 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: Write down death of death of Celebrity. You grew up 226 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, Yes, your family moved to Colorado, your father 227 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: towards zoology, your mothers and I R s agents. You 228 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: grew up in a pretty heavy academic people, pretty smart people. 229 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: You go to Columbia School Journalism, so when you're there 230 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: at this, I'm not going to say to be kind 231 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,079 Speaker 1: US magazine. In my mind when I was doing a 232 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: lot of magazine, cars was one of those things on 233 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: in a pile of other such magazines at the hair salon. 234 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: And it wasn't like a real serious thing. What did 235 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: you decide you wanted to do? I just don't like 236 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: the mean stuff. Necessarily, you show sunny wrapping around us weekly. 237 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: So there were things like people smiling. You know. This 238 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,719 Speaker 1: captured the imagination of young urban women and women who 239 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: made a lot of money. It was the iPod of publications. 240 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: It was so cool, and all these other publications followed 241 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: and couldn't quite be the same. I felt like it 242 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: could be read on two levels. One like you're just 243 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: a celebrity fan, you actually care about what Jessica Simpson wears, 244 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: And the other part of it was a tongue in 245 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: cheek look at celebrity and you could sort of read 246 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: it as a smart person and be entertained. So taking 247 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: away the ickiness of being the person who goes to 248 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: the grocery and buys the star or inquirer. The cool 249 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: person's like celebrity publication and like so when I when 250 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: I worked at People Magazine, like I would have never 251 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: read that I was. You know, I started there when 252 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: I was twenty three, and it was just so middle brow, 253 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: Middle America. You know, it wasn't quite still talking about 254 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 1: it was there was nothing cool about. It was very 255 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: like catching up with Lonnie Anderson, you know, and yes, 256 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: and and you know, and so that this whole other 257 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: generation of celebrity who were coming up through music, through 258 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: music videos, through reality television. You know. The first year 259 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: that I started US Weekly, I think that was the 260 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: first year American Idol came on air. And so it 261 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: was this whole explosion of reality TV. So this intimacy 262 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: that you know, that's when people started to call celebrities 263 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: on their first name basis, like Brittany justin Jessica, you know, 264 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: and the whole thing was like some like giant cotton 265 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: candy machine. What did you learn at Columbia School of 266 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: Journalism that you employed when you started working at US Weeknight. 267 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: I mean, something tells me there's things you learned to 268 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: Columbia School of Journalism that you employed when you took 269 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: over Hollywood Report. But what about well, That's weekly. You know, 270 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: one of the things. Was employing journalistic practices a ridiculous 271 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: category to be able to do that kind of celebrity 272 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: news credibly was I was a big part of US 273 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,719 Speaker 1: Weekly reaching did the staff did you and the editorial 274 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: staff did you all sit there and oh god, I 275 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: can't believe, like you're writing things about people and you 276 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: have a degree of contempt for the people you're writing. 277 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: Think about who were the big US Weekly figures Paris Hilton. 278 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: There was a show on MTV called The Hills which 279 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: all young women were obsessed with Dawson's Creek. Jennifer Lopez, 280 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: She's like the platonic version of an US Weekly star 281 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: at that time. She loved it, she read it, she 282 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: played along with it. She's out there getting photographed reading 283 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: US We symbiotics, totally symbiotic. And that's the thing that 284 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: was laid bare when you work at a place like 285 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: US Weekly is the sort of push pull of needing 286 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: to be in the press and the desire to never 287 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: be in the press. And US Weekly was for the 288 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: people who very much desired to be in the press. 289 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: And it's like the bonfire of the vanities. People who 290 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: really made that deal with the press, they thought I'm 291 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:46,719 Speaker 1: gonna just tear off a little piece of me and 292 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: throw it on this fire, and that you consume me 293 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: because it's really because because I wouldn't get this attention otherwise. Yes, 294 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: you certainly aren't going to love because of my work, Right, 295 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: John and I would have these funny conversations where he 296 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: was trying to understand, like who is an US Weekly celebrity? 297 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 1: And he would say, you know, I just want to 298 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: see more Danny DeVito and Michael Douglas in US Weekly 299 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: because they're his friends. You have to arm wrestle with 300 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: him about that. I mean, there were times I'm like, 301 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: I don't care, so put in like both we throw 302 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: in the occasional picture of Danny DeVito and Reappearlman and 303 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: you know, and and that that makes you unhappy. And 304 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: he would literally come down and be like I love 305 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: that photo. I said, so do I. And that was it. 306 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: It was It was just it was just a generational 307 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: shift of um how a certain group of women. And 308 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: Lindsay Lohan is the other prime example, right, like who 309 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: was that a big fixture of the US Weekly era. 310 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: It's it's it's almost forgotten now. There was a period 311 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: when she first started to kind of go off the 312 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: rails where people were very dismayed because Lindsay was enormously 313 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: talented and the whole Patti Duke thing and the parent 314 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: trap thought, she's this young, precocious, very talented girl. Little 315 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: of a sudden that just kind of goes away and 316 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: she becomes this tabloid fadder. Did you see that? Did? 317 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes it was I can't even tell you how strange 318 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: the Lindsay Lohan stuff is. Like she she directly called 319 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: people on staff all the time. Um, you know, she 320 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: her mother and you know, like the yeah, the original 321 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: manager in Gustina that you know would call people on staff. Um, 322 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: Like like Lindsay was that she was among I'm assuming 323 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: other addictions, was completely addicted to the attention, right. And 324 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: I think if you're a celebrity, and if you're a 325 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: young celebrity in particular who was raised as a child star, 326 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, like there are a lot of 327 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: celebrities who are just sort of bottomless pits of narcissism, 328 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: right of need and also not exercising the best judgment 329 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: at the time. When when do you realize at us 330 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: weekly that it's time to go? Yeah, I mean so 331 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: it's you know, there was I think anyone who does 332 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: these contractor contract jobs at some point every time you 333 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: sign one, like a little part of you dies. You're like, 334 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: I'm here for another, you know, two years or three years, 335 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: you know, being held hostagen, counting down the days on 336 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: marking X is on the calendar. And so I never 337 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: really cared about the celebrities, suff do I think anyone 338 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: I worked at the time would know I didn't care. 339 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: I didn't care about I would not, would not personally 340 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: sit around and talk about Jessica Simpson and Nicholas And 341 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: it was sort of you know, total grind for seven years, 342 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: like grind where you make a lot of personal sacrifice, 343 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: like you were like twice a week, you come home 344 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: after midnight and sometimes you come home at two am, 345 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: and um, like you always like you know, I started out, 346 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: and I started that job, and we used you know 347 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: trios if anyone remembers the Palm trio and then it 348 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: becomes an iPhone by the end, and like you are 349 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: just always working, like I don't care how much money 350 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to get paid, because I made a lot 351 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: of money and I don't need to make more. I 352 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: think to be able to let go of money anxiety 353 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: different points in your life is incredibly liberating, right, that's 354 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: what they tell me. Yeah, And so then you know 355 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: I went in. So this was after two thousand, two 356 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: thousand eight, there's a terrible financial crisis. Um, yawn in 357 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: two thousand seven. You know something, I'm sure he wishes 358 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: he could take back where he bought the fift of 359 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: US Weekly that was owned by Disney at the time. 360 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: He bought it back for three million dollars he has 361 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: he had. Then he gets an offer from Hurst to 362 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: buy the company for six seven hundred million dollars and 363 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: he doesn't take it, and then you know, boom two 364 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: thousand and eight and the whole world false and the 365 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 1: multiples at which you could trade a successful publication go nowhere. Right, 366 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:07,959 Speaker 1: Like if it was whatever beginning at the end, it's 367 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: the beginning of the end, and it's like you're in 368 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: a hole and you can't get out and and so 369 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: so there was that part of it, um, And I 370 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: don't know, I just didn't feel like doing it anymore. 371 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: The year off. I took a year off here with 372 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: your family, yes, and like it was great and we 373 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: just now I have three I had two at the time, 374 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: decided that we wanted to move to California, which was, um, 375 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: you know, because why not, right, And and you're in 376 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 1: New York. I'm in New York. We live and we 377 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: lived on Lafayette Street, Lafayette and Prince and soho in 378 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: New York, I know, and we it's the greatest. Now 379 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: I wish we miss New York. I do miss New York. 380 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: You know, my wife wants to move here. Really well, 381 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: if your kids, I mean to never have to put 382 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: a mitten or lose a hat. And you sound like 383 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: my wife. Yeah, you can't stand in the winter, yes, 384 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: I mean yes. And I don't know if you read 385 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: the under a play spaces totally. So we used to 386 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: do like having a fourth child, Oh my god, I 387 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: mean no. There were times in New York where the 388 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: weather was so terrible and we like and we would 389 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: do things like should we just go to Target in 390 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: Jersey City and walk around because there was like nothing, Yes, 391 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: right near where you are, And that's our day because 392 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: otherwise I'm gonna look at stuff. Yes, I'm gonna go 393 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: blow my brains out if I sit at home and 394 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: a second longer. So um, and you know there was 395 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: and there were just these days where like we had 396 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: these two young boys at the time where they were 397 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: just like, you know, the Nintendo d X or whatever 398 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: or DS was new at the time, the handheld and 399 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,360 Speaker 1: they had and I'm like, I can't have them play 400 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 1: video games all day long, right, and my kids with iPads, 401 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: Like we were gonna you're gonna watch an iPad for 402 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: it's the electronic leash. We we give them the iPad 403 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: for this one so we can bathe the other one 404 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: totally right. It's just like sit down and be calm. 405 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 1: It's like, yes, moralizing modern parenting. So you know, New 406 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 1: York is a tough place for a little kid. It's 407 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: it's it's the best and worst place for a little kids. 408 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: And then you know, you move out here and I 409 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: don't know if you know, there was a semi controversial 410 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: story about that The New York Times wrote about the 411 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: l A Times and how basically how lame l A 412 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: is and you know, all these people like Bill Simmons 413 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: is outraged on Twitter and people are you know, I 414 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: think it's like the New York Times, you know, constant 415 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: theme of l as a stupid place to live. But 416 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: like it raised like it raised some good points that 417 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: like l A has l A's not you know, as 418 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: The New York Times argued, not like a real city 419 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: with a real center, like it's the chicist suburb in 420 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: the world. New York is a mountain range where there's 421 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: an equivalent height to these mountains. Of all industries. There's 422 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 1: publishing and banking, politics, and and and the and law enforcement, 423 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: and in tech and design, and he said, the entertainment 424 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,959 Speaker 1: has its place among those. I go to parties on them. 425 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: I'm standing in line at Saranac at the famous mansion 426 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: at Tanglewood. Were at a fund base therefore the for 427 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: Tanglewood with James Taylor and his wife, and we're there 428 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: in some tweety looking kind of moynihan esque. Guy turns 429 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: to me. We're in the buffet line, he says, and 430 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: what do you do for a living young man? I 431 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: was like, four time, And what do you do for 432 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: a living young man? He said? And I thought, I'm 433 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: in heaven. So we're gonna have a real conversation over 434 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: dinner because you don't know who the funk I am. 435 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: And blah blah blah and and and and in l 436 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: A one mountain dwarfs sold the other mountain completely and 437 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: I find that frustration. And I think one of these 438 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: was really interesting to me here was just how deeply 439 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: intertwined social and business are here, right, Like so you 440 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 1: don't escape like any of the same people, you know, 441 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: which is why your friends aren't we and you work 442 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: with them, yes, um and whereas and I think, you know, 443 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: one of the things I miss about New York, like 444 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: you can go you know, when I was at Michael 445 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: Wolf's book party two weeks ago in New York waiting 446 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: for my car to pick me up in the lobby, 447 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: the dormant and the porter of the building. It was 448 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: at Michael Wolf's publisher's houses, man named Stephen Rubin, the 449 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: dormant and the porter like knew everything about the book. 450 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: We're trash and Trump were like totally like you know, 451 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 1: knew the day's news was. They were totally on it. 452 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: And like that doesn't happen in l a typically right 453 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: in New York. You go to Duncan Donuts, that person 454 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: is on it, right And in New York when things 455 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: are not kosher, they go nuts and people are like 456 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: my congressman is who, yeah, my stated something min is 457 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: who total school board politics is all that matters. Where 458 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: does my kid go to school? That's the extent of 459 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: their garden. I mean, it's it is so everything is 460 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: so hyperlocal here. I mean it's hyper like you know 461 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: that do do you know that app next door where 462 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: you can sort of see what like you just talk 463 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: to your neighbors within like a two block radius and 464 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: that like that to me, epitomizes l A And it's 465 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: like that you don't even need to yeesh. It's it's 466 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: kind of a thing out here and you don't even 467 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: need to talk to anyone beyond your two block radius. 468 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,959 Speaker 1: And it's it's American West, Yeah, it is. It is 469 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: entirely like it's the conception of the American West. What's 470 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: right in front of me? Totally? Do I care about 471 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: what's coming on over there? What do I care about? Completely? 472 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: Like like like the man, you will And it's like 473 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: it's also like nimbism. So so you take the year 474 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: off and re acquainted with your family, have another baby, 475 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: be acquitted with your husband, and have another baby, and 476 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: when the time's up, you know, you have a copy 477 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: of the Hollywood Reporter your hand and going man if 478 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: I could get my hands on this operation. What I 479 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: would know Originally were going to move to Marin County 480 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: like I I sort of had, like my husband, I 481 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: really loved Marin County. We had we had been on 482 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: a house, and of course, because it's Morin County, we 483 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: were immediately outbid and um. And so then right around 484 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: that time, my favorite Page six had run an item 485 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: about my apartment being for sailors selling. And so then 486 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: there was this executive who had been at Condonas who 487 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 1: was sort of notorious and legendary named Richard Beckman. And 488 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: so Richard Beckman had and he was an ad sales guy, 489 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: and he had been the publisher of Vogue and Vanity 490 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: FAIRN and UM. And so he had connected with this 491 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: um private money outfit called Googleheim Partners, and they had 492 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: acquired this group of sort of sad trade titles and 493 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: included Billboard, ad Week and The Hollywood Reporter, The Red 494 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: and the Green. We used to quote, oh, how funny, 495 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: okay when we first came to when I first came 496 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: to Hollywood, my friends would say, you gotta subscribe to 497 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: the Red and the Green. That's so funny, Okay. I'd 498 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: never heard that that's great. So the so Richard Beckman's 499 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: desperately trying to reach me after saying page six, this 500 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: is like a scene out of Working Girl and she 501 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: finds out something, you know, something in page six and 502 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: like Chase when Melanie Griffin's character chases it. And it 503 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: was funny. I have a publicist friend, uh named Alison 504 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: Broad in New York and she she knows Beckman from 505 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: just from being in New York. And she said, I'm 506 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: sure he wants to talk about the Hollywoo Reporter. I'm 507 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: like the Hollywod Reporter. That is such a piece of crap, 508 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: Like I've never even looked at that in my life. 509 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: And um, so I go, I go, and I meet 510 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: Beckman at the Bowery Hotel in the restaurant downstairs, and 511 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 1: people someone who's jokingly call him like Barnam Bailey and 512 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: Beckman like the show comes to town. And he's British 513 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: and like wild, you know, gesticulation and enthusiasm. But he 514 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: had this idea. The investors had put him in charge. 515 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: They made him the see you of these titles and 516 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: said you know you can do anything, you want anything, 517 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: and and um, but he said, I wanted to be fabulous. 518 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: It has to be fabulous and you know which you know, yeah, 519 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: I think I think he literally may have said, promised 520 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: me fabulous and so and he said I wanted to 521 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 1: be glossy, glossy. I wanted to be like, you know, 522 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: I can't remember what he said, like maybe it's like 523 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: vanity fair and meat to the economist or and this 524 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 1: and that and all his little yes and so, I 525 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: like trying to sell my husband in l A. I 526 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: was not having it. So for several months we talked 527 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 1: about this and then like and it was really interesting 528 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: to me. I just saw immediately what it should be. 529 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: He gave me these blank books of paper, this glossy paper, oversized, 530 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: and I just sat there and I put post its 531 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: on every page. I'm like, this is like you'll have 532 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: this kind of story, this this, this is okay, Like 533 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,479 Speaker 1: I got it. That's it. I don't think about it anymore. 534 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: And to me, like I sort of knew. I knew 535 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,479 Speaker 1: it would succeed, which everybody thinks your thing is going 536 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: to succeed, but you know, I had a very good 537 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: feeling about it. And you know, we ended up moving 538 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: to l A. And it was just like we moved 539 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: here July tenth. One of the things I know I 540 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: had to do was hire people with publishing experience from 541 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: New York, which does not exist in droves in Los 542 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: Angeles and certainly not you know not at the time, 543 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: and hired an art director, creative director, photo director, and 544 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: whtorm this woman Jennifer Laskie, because she really really did 545 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,959 Speaker 1: a great job. Yes, Jenni, Yes, Jennifer Laski is a genius, 546 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: and so this show's go magazine as far. Yes, so 547 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: Jennifer Laski. And this is how like you never know 548 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 1: what's what someone is really capable of. So Jennifer Laski 549 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,719 Speaker 1: was a sort of freelance photo editor out of New 550 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: York and US Weekly used to do these really like 551 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: hokey things that you know, we're going to be the 552 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: last gasp to save publishing called book eazines, where you published, 553 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: you create like little fan things for you saw them 554 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: in the grocery. So she was the photo of the 555 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 1: ones for Twilight, and so she would like sit there 556 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: and look for pictures of Rob Pattinson and Kristen Stewart. 557 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: And but I remember her taste. I was like, wow, 558 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: like she was finding like the coolest photos of Rob Pattinson, 559 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: and she had great taste. And so we had a 560 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 1: prototype done by let's say, August Writer on my birthday 561 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: and um, so we took it out to show studios 562 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: and they're all, you know, you'll never be able to 563 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: pull this off, Like all this media that covers Hollywood 564 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: is doomed. It's you know anyway, what I'm saying is 565 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 1: there was a ton of skepticism and also a ton 566 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: of skepticism about can us weekly lady come and do 567 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: this very different thing? And you know, I think, um, 568 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: if people who are here, remember the Hollywood Reporter was 569 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: not just failing, it was like flat line, I mean 570 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: like already underground and sort of it had a sadness 571 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: all around it. So it was definitely like bad news bearers, 572 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: Like you have the staff who has been misdirected or 573 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: not directed for years. They're losing, but it's not necessarily 574 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: there for right and so like they like there's an 575 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,239 Speaker 1: inertia that's set in where they don't know, like they 576 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: don't know what's good from bad because nobody tells them. 577 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: They don't care. They're burnt out. They need leadership, yes, 578 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: and so like I kept the staff like all these people. 579 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: But I'm sure you'll remember this era of Hollywood were 580 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 1: like like the so called trade presses, so beholden to 581 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: the studios Premiere magazine, Yes, and it just becomes press 582 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,959 Speaker 1: release central, right, and like you well, I mean in 583 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: my own case, I do a movie with my ex wife. 584 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 1: We do this movie The Marrying Man and the and 585 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: the Susan Lyne is the head of Premiere Magazine and 586 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: you realize that the PR department of the studios are 587 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: just faxing her the articles what to right. Most of 588 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 1: what happened that was painted as misbehaving stars on the 589 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: set of a movie, much of it was having honest 590 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: creative differences. When you walk in what really disting, which 591 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: is the how they would reporter under your tutelage and 592 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: when you were there under your leadership, is you go 593 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: to that level where you become a real honest magazine. Yes, 594 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: you're not like like like Premier Magazine was a shitty magazine. 595 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: If someone called me up and they said to me, 596 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 1: and I was like a child, that was my I 597 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: was in my career infancy when someone said to me, 598 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: what do you think that Premier Magazine is gonna do. 599 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 1: They're gonna take your word for it, you and this 600 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: woman who you're dating, or they're going to do the 601 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: bidding of the studio that releases thirty movies a year 602 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 1: and advertising. Of course you're gonna get crushed. Where does 603 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: the spine of it becoming a really, really smart magazine 604 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: come from? It is so fascinating to me, And I 605 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: think you see this in so much political coverage, the 606 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: way they would self censor themselves, Like people come in, 607 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: they come big, go interview someone and they say, oh 608 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: my god, like you wouldn't believe this crazy thing someone said, 609 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: and then you get the story and it's not in there. 610 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: And I remember this happened several times that I would 611 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: say to the person, like why is that not in there? 612 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: Protecting well, I just don't think they would like it. 613 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: I'm like, who cares, Like why do you care? Like 614 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: they said it like then they said it, probably because 615 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: they want you to use it right and and not 616 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: not like not like crazy gotcha stuff, but like Hollywood 617 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: had gotten into the heads of these reporters where they 618 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: were protecting them but not even supporting them, were financially 619 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: supporting the publication or whatever, and and you know, I 620 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: also remember this one time, like, like, you know, I 621 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: was the new editor and there's this one reporter there 622 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: and I'm sure you must remember when Nikki Fink was here, 623 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: and you know, and so Nikki Fink is is trying 624 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: to reach this reporter at the office, um no doubt, 625 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 1: to try to report something terrible about us. And so 626 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: I was trying to reach this reporter and the reporter 627 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: we're in a news meeting. The reporters like, oh my god, 628 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: Nicky's calling. I have to run out. I'm like, why 629 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: are you like giving power to someone like that? Like 630 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: what is wrong with you? And so they were all 631 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: kind of like it was like a collective self esteem problem. 632 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: Who is the executive at Warner Brothers who green lit 633 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: bringing TMZ to TV? Do you know what it's like 634 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: to walk down the carters of Warner Brothers and we 635 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: down one hallway and there's all the people producing films 636 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: and television that I might be in. And you go 637 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: down that whole way and there's Harvey Levin, who they're 638 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: making money off of. Who's out there trying to kill me? 639 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: Was it Peter Roth? I mean, who brought TMZ to 640 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: Warner by them and going like, shame on you, why 641 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: did you do that? And why are you Because what 642 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: they realized was, here's head a Hopper, here's Army Archard, 643 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: here's Walter Winchell, here's Luella Parsons, the old dinosaurs, and 644 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: and and and and rowing a Barrett. When I was 645 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: a little boy round on TV, and the studios would 646 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: would work really really hard to control and manage their 647 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: stories about out of wedlock babies and and and and 648 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: and interracial marriages and abortions and alcoholism and sanitarium there 649 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: I'm using all the language of that period, and their 650 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: drug addiction and there this and their d u I 651 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: s and there, and their divorces and their spousal abuse. 652 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: And they would try to bury all that, and then 653 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: one day some guys wakes up of those because why 654 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: are we breaking our ass trying to protect these people. 655 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: Let's make money off of the fornicating prayer ile idiocy 656 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: of the stars. Why are we protecting the stars? Let's 657 00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: just lay it out there. Janice men started her career 658 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: as a crime reporter for the local paper in Westchester 659 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: County on the same beat at the same time in Baltimore, 660 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: was screenwriting phenom David Simon. Then in both found their 661 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: calling men at People. Simon at the TV show based 662 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: on his book Homicide. They offered me the chance to 663 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: write the pilot, and I said, maybe wisely, maybe not wisely, 664 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: because I didn't know what the hell I would have 665 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: been doing. I said, get somebody who knows what they're 666 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: doing to do this. I'm a I'm a newspaperman. But 667 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: maybe unwisely when I saw, uh, the per episode royalty 668 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: that went to that guy. Yeah. Eventually Simon agreed, and 669 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: the rest is TV history. Here the rest of that 670 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: interview at Here's the Thing dot org coming up, Janice 671 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: Men and I discuss me too, and Woody Allen. This 672 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: is Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the Thing. 673 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: For nearly twenty five years, Janice Men has been at 674 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: the white hot center of celebrity journalism, covering stars and 675 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: the business of selling them. So she's seen the sexism 676 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: and discrimination in show business up close, edited dozens of 677 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: articles about it, and Janice Men worries that the Harvey 678 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: Weinstein moment is being squandered. Her concern is this that 679 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: powerful men who could be pushed to solve structural problems 680 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: are getting a free pass because of the focus on 681 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: individual sexual harassers. I'm afraid of revolution without a successful outcome. Right, 682 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: And this is the thing that I find frustrating about 683 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: Times Up and me Too and all this stuff, this 684 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: culture or of victimology among women, right that like, women 685 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: have no agency, they have no ability to control these 686 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: situations or get out of them. And I understand there's 687 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: a power and balance and you felt indebted walk out 688 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: the door, and like there's certain things where you're reading them, 689 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: and some of its generational, I think, but the season 690 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: sorry thing I'm reading and I'm like, Okay, where's the 691 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: bad part, where's the bad farm? Like what? Like that's 692 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,959 Speaker 1: it's done? And like I like and and let's focus 693 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: less on disease and sorry, And I don't want you 694 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: to ignore that because because because men need to learn how. 695 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: And I say this to my daughter, who's twenty two, 696 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: I said, they remember when she was like fifteen. I 697 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: remember sitting to her down and I said to her, Remember, 698 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: I said, it's not only that men will say anything 699 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: to get you to do what they want. Because men 700 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: will say anything to get you to do that. I said, 701 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: some of them are very good at it, right, Like 702 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: from a very young age, how do you teach girls 703 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: to not feel disempowered in these relationships they have when 704 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: they go into work and with boys and with men 705 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: and people at a higher level. Men they've been painfully 706 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: silent on these issues, and it's sort of women losing 707 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: it over this stuff and scaring men to death and 708 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: so how but it's but how do you actually move 709 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: this conversation to something productive where you actually create a 710 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: path for better gender representation and positions of power and 711 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: making it making a very striking kind of bold move 712 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: that's going to have some residents. For example, I mean, 713 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: if this is off the top of my head, the 714 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: famous movie star is on the set of the film 715 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: and she says, I'm not going to come to work 716 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: tomorrow right until you have the head of the studio 717 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: come down here lunch with me. I'm gonna shut down 718 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: the film to have Bob so and so come down. 719 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: What are you guys gonna do? I don't feel comfortable 720 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: working for your company. Yes, you had Rattner here, Brat 721 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: rat Pack or whatever. Tell me what you're going to do. 722 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: What are you actively doing to make me for and 723 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: really get the people who have the juice. Who's in charge? 724 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: What do we do? You can you can get all 725 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: the z s and sorry as you want when we 726 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: get the people that are in charge of the networks 727 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: in the studios to probably you know you saw Gal 728 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: Wonder Woman. She you know she did that right, She 729 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: said Brett Ratner couldn't be a part of Wonder Woman 730 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: too or whatever, and so she got him off the film. 731 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: But I think fundamentally there's such a power structure and 732 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: see this in the pay inequity stuff that is becoming 733 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: sort of an all consuming topic here, like, but all 734 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: of it sort of tied into the same thing about 735 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: who has power and who has the ability to exploit 736 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: that power, And it is a male female thing, but 737 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 1: it's also is the sort of culture of the town. 738 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: But the real thing is there's something uncomfortably pornographic about 739 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: the kind of endless outing of the sexual story masturbatory. 740 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: You can out mental the end of time, like you 741 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: could do it every day. You can have a news 742 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: channel devoted to this um. But the Hollywood thing is 743 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: particularly frustrating to me. And you know, Amanda hasn't New 744 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: York Times wrote a scathing story about the Times Up 745 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: movement the other day about how it's all just activism 746 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: and not action, right, basically taking the actual hard questions 747 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: about Hollywood and power and abuse and turning it into 748 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: a fashion moment. It's not, it's not. It's not really 749 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: going to get us anywhere. I really want to see somebody. 750 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: I keep saying, you've got to convict Harvey. If Harvey 751 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: is a guy who got mossad agent is trying to 752 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: bury all the people who he raped, let's get him 753 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: in jail. My mistake has been that I thought that 754 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: certain things went without saying. If Woody Allen is guilty 755 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: of what they claim he's guilty of, you don't think 756 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: I want him punished for that in whatever way. But 757 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: put yourself in this position, which is it's the sentencing 758 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: phase of a horrible crime, and his mother is sitting 759 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: there in the front row for him in the car. 760 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: It's her son. They're my friends. My impulse is to 761 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,959 Speaker 1: help them, to understand them, and to support them. If 762 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: men that I know, Jimmy Toback is one. If men 763 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: that I know are guilty of some crime, I don't 764 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: even to skate on that because I'm an actor. We're 765 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: trained to think about alternatives, what might have happened, what 766 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: might you have done to have When I see men 767 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: by their own hand destroy their lives and ruin the 768 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: lives of their wives and their children, and their name 769 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 1: is shipped for the rest of them, I find that 770 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: very disturbing and very very painful. But Harvey Weinstein, he's 771 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: the low hanging fruit, and you've got to prosecute him, 772 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: and you've got to convict him, so everybody understands there's 773 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: real consequence. Just talking about it in the press and 774 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 1: talking about on Twitter and and and retweeting articles from 775 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: Ronan this and this one and that one and all 776 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 1: the people who are supportive. I said, that's not going 777 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: to get it done. You need to have a trial. 778 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: But the Woody thing is so complicated, you know, and 779 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: he is his worst character witness, right, all the circumstantial 780 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: and is like, you know, it is never going to 781 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: prove to you. And people who don't believe he sexually 782 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: assaulted his daughter that he did it, and and um, 783 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 1: but it doesn't help, It doesn't help, It doesn't help. Well, 784 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 1: those movies don't help. They do not help. And there 785 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 1: I think there are people who think on that fact alone, 786 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: he should go away. He needs to, you know, never 787 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: work again, because he made movies that today could be 788 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: viewed as incredibly yeah, totally creepy. One of our really 789 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,800 Speaker 1: fine reporters, Stephen Galloway, had interviewed Woody Allen for the 790 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: cover of The Holly Reporter that sort of set all 791 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,839 Speaker 1: of this off, and what he said creepy things in 792 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 1: the story, like including in the way he talked about 793 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: his wife, Sunny, which was you would describe it as 794 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: sort of highly narcissistic, and how Sunny kind of serves him, Yes, totally. 795 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: And so then you know, ron and Pharaoh had put 796 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: something on Twitter which I saw and he said, I 797 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: loved Janiceman, but what what the hell was she thinking? 798 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: And because Rona didn't feel like Steven had pushed Woody 799 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: hard enough on this alleged sexual assaults of his sister, 800 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: and like we say to Rout and okay, write something 801 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: about it then if you want, and you know, he 802 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,479 Speaker 1: wrote this very well argued, well written essay about how 803 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: Hollywood has skated over the Woody Allen issue and does 804 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: not believe and which is so funny to think about now, 805 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: but does not believe accusers, and you could see the 806 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: winds of change coming. That story took off huge, and 807 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 1: it was just came as enormous thing to the New 808 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: Yorker piece. Let me ask you this because we're gonna 809 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: run out of time. At one point, I was supposed 810 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:32,919 Speaker 1: to go to Columbia School of Journalism. I was gonna 811 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,800 Speaker 1: do a program with you, and you couldn't make it correct. 812 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,439 Speaker 1: It's gonna be on the panel? Was you? Me and 813 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: Nick Denton? Oh my god? And I was told then 814 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: your schedule change and you couldn't come. And when you 815 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 1: dropped that, I dropped. I said, I'm not gonna go 816 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: with I'm not I was not a fan of Denton 817 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: and that operation when they went bankrupt and that whole 818 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: thing happened with Hulk Cogan. What did you think about that? God? 819 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: You know, okay, so obviously there were so much schaden 820 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: freud in the ether about that, right, and then you're like, uh, 821 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: Peter t. Eels bank rolling this, and you know, and 822 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: then you like Charles Harder and I started to get like, 823 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: then you started to feel sort of icky about it, 824 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 1: and then you come around to like and so Nick 825 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: dn and I always have gotten along, and for whatever reason, 826 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: they never went out thest the terrible things about me, 827 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: but they never went after me as one of their 828 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: characters that they like to torture. And so um, I 829 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: think people feel kind of wistful about some of their 830 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: stuff now because sometimes, like whatever moment we're in with 831 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: this Trump moment, like one of the things that I 832 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: find refreshing is like people will just say anything now 833 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: and do anything right, like any sort of polite veneer 834 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: on the truth. You can just blow it away, right, 835 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 1: And I think that was one of the things Gawker did. 836 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: And so you see some of what they reported on 837 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: like Louis c. K. Right, I saw a lot of 838 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: references to that when the Louis k staff out, Yes, 839 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:45,839 Speaker 1: and Gawker was the first to sort of get into 840 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: that story. And so like a really good Gawka writer 841 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: could write about the absurdity of all of it, right, 842 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,320 Speaker 1: And so I missed that. But you know, it's scary. 843 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 1: It's had a very severe chilling effect where you believe 844 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: a journalistic organization, a single attorney can bankrupt you. You know, 845 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: I think these decisions that were probably treated much more cavalierly, 846 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 1: and that's the wrong word, but much more boldly. In 847 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 1: an operation, you're made to scrutinize them much more. And 848 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,760 Speaker 1: you know there was UH and this under this threat 849 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: of like a Charles Harder or one of these attorneys. 850 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: And you know Charles Harder as you saw with Harvey Weinstein, 851 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: and he did it with one of our journals of 852 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,320 Speaker 1: the Holly Reporter, Kim Masters. They create this whole strategy, 853 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: and they did it with Lisa Bloom where you no 854 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: longer you no longer undermine the story, which you can't 855 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 1: somebody's can't just speak, you undermine the journalist. And you 856 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: know with UM, with Kim Masters, she was reporting on 857 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: Roy Price at Amazon his whole sexual harassment of a 858 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,439 Speaker 1: showrunner who was involved with the Man of the High 859 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: Castle and UM, and they created this fake story that 860 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: they said to Matt Belanie, who was the editor took 861 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: over for me UM, that Kim Masters had been UM. Well, 862 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 1: you know she was soliciting money from Roy for her 863 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: show on casey r W. She has a show on 864 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: Case r W called The Business about Hollywood. And you 865 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 1: know when he said no, that's when she decided to 866 00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: go after him. So then you can set up this 867 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 1: whole delicious intent argument that can get in people's heads. 868 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 1: And so Kim, Kim, who would like never she is 869 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: like the most straight arrow journalists of all time. So 870 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: Kim no. So that So you know, they said it's 871 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 1: in an email, and so they go through this like 872 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: weeks of stuff where then finally, you know, the Holy 873 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: reporters attorneys and Matt have to say, give us the email. 874 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: Oh well, well let's we'll get us. You will get you. 875 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: Of course it doesn't exist, but by that time they've 876 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: seeded all this sort of doubt. Yes, and and it's 877 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 1: one of these things where, um, I mean, it's sort 878 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 1: of what Roger ailsood with Gabe Sherman being able to 879 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,920 Speaker 1: sort of say the person as an agenda. You know, 880 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 1: it'll all come out and core how this person has 881 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: had it out for me us And you know a 882 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: lot of newsrooms and Kim had a terrible time. She 883 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: shopped that story at multiple other outlets. People were scared like, well, oh, 884 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: you know, if the Holly reported did in front of 885 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: there must be something wrong, like why would we run it? 886 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,359 Speaker 1: And had to go from place to place to place, 887 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,439 Speaker 1: and finally this outlet that's a you know, very um 888 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,800 Speaker 1: well regarded upstart called The Information that Comes out of 889 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley. It is self funded by by this woman 890 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: who has family money on her own. She was the 891 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: one who ran it and when someone else did it 892 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 1: validated it. They weren't sued. Then it became a story 893 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: to cover. And that was just one example of a 894 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: story I know. So you can see how you know 895 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: a thousand other stories probably every week, a ground into nothingness. 896 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 1: You're this raging lee smart woman, and you should make 897 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 1: movies and TV because we need smart women. God, television, 898 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,840 Speaker 1: maybe not movies. Movies are such a long process, and 899 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: absolutely we're thank you for having That was Janice min, 900 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:41,760 Speaker 1: the visionary turnaround artist behind US Weekly and the Hollywood Reporter. 901 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,840 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to here's 902 00:41:47,880 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: the thing, the company, the conchol