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Speaker 1: Jason, I have been coming across so many cases related

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Speaker 1: to bunk fire science, people who were convicted on what

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Speaker 1: we thought was scientific evidence of arson.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Arson is one of those things that everyone should care

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Speaker 3: about because it can literally happen to anyone. Electrical fires happen,

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Speaker 3: and it's unimaginable that someone could be wrongfully convicted by

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Speaker 3: somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about, yes, and

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Speaker 3: end up in prison for the rest of their life.

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Speaker 1: I would agree. I think many many arson cases where

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Speaker 1: people have been convicted should be relooked at.

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Speaker 2: I felt form rang and it was my son, and

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Speaker 2: he said the house of sun fire. I couldn't believe that.

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Speaker 2: I just couldn't believe that my suspol wears rather like

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Speaker 2: est thing. Yeah, no, no, but it could locate.

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Speaker 4: From lava for good. This is wrongful conviction. With Maggie

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Speaker 4: Freeling today Karen Bowse. On the morning of July thirtieth,

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Speaker 4: two thousand and two, Karen bows was up early doing

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Speaker 4: chores and preparing for the day. At about eight thirty am,

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Speaker 4: as she was getting ready to leave the house, she

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Speaker 4: heard her fourteen year old daughter, Robin, shuffling around upstairs.

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Speaker 4: Karen says She left about ten minutes later to go

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Speaker 4: shopping with her friend Judy. During the trip, she got

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Speaker 4: a call from her son Billy, saying their house was

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Speaker 4: on fire. Karen and Judy raced back to the house

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Speaker 4: and found police, firemen, and spectators everywhere. And then Karen

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Speaker 4: saw paramedics taking someone out of the house on a stretcher.

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Speaker 4: It was her daughter, Robin.

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Speaker 5: She was dead instantly.

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Speaker 4: The police suspected that Karen, the last person at home

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Speaker 4: with Robin, could have been the culprit. After hours of

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Speaker 4: frutile interrogation, they arrested, charged, and convicted her of felony

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Speaker 4: murder of her daughter. But Karen says she didn't start

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Speaker 4: the fire that killed Robin. Why would she ever want

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Speaker 4: to hurt her kids? They were her pride and joy.

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Speaker 2: It was probably my greatest accomplishment, greatest thing I've ever done,

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Speaker 2: the best thing I've ever done in my life. You know,

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Speaker 2: just love being mother. My name is Karen both and

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Speaker 2: I was falsely convicted on the death of my daughter, Robin.

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Speaker 4: Karen Bowse was born March twenty third, nineteen fifty six.

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Speaker 4: She grew up in Holland, Michigan, a small town on

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Speaker 4: Lake Michigan, and she's one of two children.

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Speaker 2: I had very good parents. SI. My father was a

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Speaker 2: little on the abusive side as far as her boy

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Speaker 2: and be mostly, but my mother was just the opposite.

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Speaker 2: But basically I lived a decent life, just a very

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Speaker 2: middle class.

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Speaker 4: Karen's father owned a dental lab, and Karen eventually got

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Speaker 4: a job as a dental technician. In her early twenties,

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Speaker 4: she met Wayne Bows. It was a whirlwind romance and

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Speaker 4: they married when Karen was just twenty three. Karen continued

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Speaker 4: to work. In nineteen eighty four, when she was twenty eight,

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Speaker 4: she had her first child's Billy.

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Speaker 2: This just was a really good kid growing up. As

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Speaker 2: he calls himself, kind of a geek, but that's okay.

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Speaker 2: He loves computers. He's big in the reading department, and

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Speaker 2: just hanging out with his friends and stuff.

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Speaker 4: Karen became a stay at home mom, and a few

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Speaker 4: years later, in nineteen eighty eight, she had her second

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Speaker 4: child's Robin.

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Speaker 2: She was just the love of my life. Your first

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Speaker 2: child is both special, but Robin was the love of

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Speaker 2: my life. She was attached to my head for years

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Speaker 2: and years and we just did everything together.

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Speaker 4: And Karen says, They had tea parties and went on

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Speaker 4: family camping trips and invented their own games.

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Speaker 5: They used to play.

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Speaker 2: We played this little game called mail Box. We had

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Speaker 2: these little tiny mail boxes and then we would write

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Speaker 2: each other a little love notes and different things and

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Speaker 2: back and forth, so kind of like snailmail, but it

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Speaker 2: was in our house. It was really cute, but it

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Speaker 2: was so endearing.

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Speaker 4: But as Robin got older, she got more rebellious.

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Speaker 2: About probably thirteen, we just got involved with the wrong group,

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Speaker 2: some different people that you know, weren't so healthy, and

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Speaker 2: we started having some issues with her.

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Speaker 1: What was going on with her.

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Speaker 2: She met a boy online and he was from her school,

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Speaker 2: but he wasn't somebody that she would have normally met

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Speaker 2: in person, but she was enanored with him online and

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Speaker 2: she finally met him at full He had a lot

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Speaker 2: of different things in his life that were not conducive

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Speaker 2: to how we were trying to raise or happen.

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Speaker 4: This caused a lot of tension and strife between Robin

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Speaker 4: and her parents. There was even police intervention a few

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Speaker 4: times to help calm their arguing. Wayne and Karen got

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Speaker 4: Robin into therapy, but she drifted further and further away

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Speaker 4: from them. She even inquired about emancipating herself from her parents.

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Speaker 4: Despite all this turmoil, Karen was hopeful it would pass.

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Speaker 2: I just was very confident that, you know, I was

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Speaker 2: just teenage and eventually she'd come back around. We'd be friends,

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Speaker 2: just like my mom and I were best friends.

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Speaker 4: But that wouldn't happen. In July of two thousand and two,

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Speaker 4: Karen and Wayne had planned a family trip to a

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Speaker 4: cabin about two hours north of where they lived.

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Speaker 2: They were I'm not going to take our family vacation,

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Speaker 2: which we normally took in July, and we've had entered

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Speaker 2: a cab and that we were going to stay at.

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Speaker 2: But Drovin did not want to go. She just started

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Speaker 2: a brand new job at local restaurant and she was

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Speaker 2: going to be starting in ninth grade in high school.

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Speaker 4: Robin wanted to stay back and work at her new

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Speaker 4: job and attend the activities the school was putting on

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Speaker 4: for the summer. Karen says she compromised by having Robin's

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Speaker 4: older brother, Billy, drive Robin back and forth so she

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Speaker 4: could go to the school events.

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Speaker 2: But she really was trying to stay home. She wanted

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Speaker 2: to be home, stay by herself and not come on

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Speaker 2: vacation with us.

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Speaker 4: The evening of July twenty ninth, Karen, Waene and Robin

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Speaker 4: got into an argument about the vacation. Robin stomped upstairs

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Speaker 4: and locked herself in her bedroom. Karen followed to try

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Speaker 4: and smooth things over.

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Speaker 2: I got for us and asked like a command, and

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Speaker 2: she let me in. She was sitting on the floor,

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Speaker 2: and I walked over and kissed her on the head,

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Speaker 2: top of the head, and told her that I loved her.

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Speaker 5: And.

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Speaker 2: She went yeah, like really like she didn't believe that,

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Speaker 2: you know, I loved her, And but I was very

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Speaker 2: glad that I had told her. I had that nice

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Speaker 2: you know. Now at that time, I didn't see, you know,

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Speaker 2: really realize the significance of it.

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Speaker 4: The next morning, July thirtieth, two thousand and two, Karen

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Speaker 4: was up early, making coffee and doing chores. As she

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Speaker 4: was getting ready to leave the house, she could hear

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Speaker 4: that Robin had woken up, but she says she didn't

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Speaker 4: see her. That morning, Billy and Wayne had already left

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Speaker 4: for work at a local autobody shop. Karen left around

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Speaker 4: eight forty am. She first stopped to see Wayne at

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Speaker 4: his shop and.

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Speaker 2: Asked him for some cash that I could, you know,

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Speaker 2: use just for fun and for going out to launch.

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Speaker 4: Karen then headed out to pick up her friend Judy.

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Speaker 4: They had planned to go shopping in Grand Rapids, about

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Speaker 4: a half hour away from the Boss home in Zealand.

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Speaker 4: She stopped and got them both a quick breakfast.

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Speaker 5: First, we were going to go shopping to the mall.

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Speaker 5: We were going to go out for lunch.

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Speaker 4: This is Judy, the friend that Karen was with. Karen

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Speaker 4: and Judy knew each other from high school and are

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Speaker 4: still friends to this day. Judy says, it was just

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Speaker 4: a normal day.

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Speaker 5: You know, we're just talking because we were both going

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Speaker 5: to go on vacation and what we're going to shop

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Speaker 5: for and she wanted new shoes, so we went to

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Speaker 5: the shoest.

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Speaker 4: Not long after arriving in Grand Rapids, Karen received a

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Speaker 4: phone call from Billy and.

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Speaker 2: He said the house was on fire. And we immediately

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Speaker 2: turned around. I couldn't believe it.

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Speaker 6: I just couldn't believe.

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Speaker 2: That, you know, he really he says, yes, the house

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Speaker 2: is on fire, and I said, well, where is Robin.

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Speaker 2: That's the biggest thing. Yeah, no, nobody could locate her,

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Speaker 2: I said, well, last I know she was and ill fed.

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Speaker 4: Karen and Judy raced back to the house. By the

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Speaker 4: time they came home, the house was inundated with police, firemen,

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Speaker 4: and spectators. Karen was overwhelmed and in a panic.

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Speaker 5: She was hysterical and she was trying to go into

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Speaker 5: the house and she was uh kind of They held

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Speaker 5: her down because she wanted to go in.

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Speaker 4: The fireman who went to the house noticed that the

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Speaker 4: fire was confined upstairs in Robin's room and the area

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Speaker 4: near it. Outside, Karen saw paramedics taking someone out of

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Speaker 4: the house.

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Speaker 2: When that was robbing honest streasure. I could tell by

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Speaker 2: the look that my husband's face that she wasn't alive.

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Speaker 6: That was.

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Speaker 2: Just devastating. I did everything I could to try to

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Speaker 2: run into the house beforehand, but Friday, when I found

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Speaker 2: out she was in the house, but people just held

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Speaker 2: me down so I couldn't run into the house. And

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Speaker 2: this and all that will be my little baby is

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Speaker 2: I thought of odd, Yes, it just does, just like

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Speaker 2: your whole life is fancy.

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Speaker 3: There's nothing last.

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Speaker 4: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company.

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Speaker 4: AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and to making

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Speaker 4: a positive difference in the lives of its employees and

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Speaker 4: in the communities where we work and live. In light

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Speaker 4: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and

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Speaker 4: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform,

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Speaker 4: the AIG pro Bono Program provides free legal services and

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Speaker 4: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. Investigators from the

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Speaker 4: Michigan State Police soon swung into action to determine the

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Speaker 4: cause of the fire at the Boses house. They collected

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Speaker 4: carpet samples from the hallway outside Robin's room, as well

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Speaker 4: as from her bedroom for analysis. Testing for the presence

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Speaker 4: of liquid accelerants in the hallway later came back negative,

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Speaker 4: but gasoline was found both in Robin's room and on

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Speaker 4: her clothes. The investigators also found a five gallon can

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Speaker 4: of gasoline in the corner of her bedroom, along with

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Speaker 4: used and unused matches, candles, and incense. There were numerous

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Speaker 4: electrical cords plugged into the wall outlets and a power strip.

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Speaker 4: The can was also eventually sent for testing, but no

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Speaker 4: fingerprints were found. Karen was the last person to be

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Speaker 4: in the house with Robins that morning, so she went

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Speaker 4: to the police station to give her statement, but she

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Speaker 4: ended up being questioned. The next day. Her clothes, as

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Speaker 4: well as the car she took to them, all with Judy,

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Speaker 4: were collected for testing. When testing came back, nothing revealed

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Speaker 4: the presence of gasoline or an accelerant. Regardless, investigators pressed

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Speaker 4: Karen for answers.

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Speaker 2: And all the sisters within hours of this kay happening.

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Speaker 2: I got pulled. Then I had to write a statement

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Speaker 2: at the police station, and oh I did. I wrote

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Speaker 2: down just what I thought, you know, my estimation of

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Speaker 2: what happened. I was just devastated.

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Speaker 4: Still, State Police Detective Michael Harris and Zealand Police Chief

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Speaker 4: William Olney questioned Karen again a week later. Only was

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Speaker 4: actually a family friend.

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Speaker 2: She has a neighbor and we went to the same church,

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Speaker 2: I maybe said as kids camping with me.

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Speaker 4: Karen trusted him at this point, she didn't know she

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Speaker 4: was considered a suspect.

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Speaker 2: I grew up believing fully that the police are there

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Speaker 2: to help to help protect me, to help protect my community.

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Speaker 2: That's how I grew up. You know, those are my

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Speaker 2: core beliefs. So I didn't think anything of you know,

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Speaker 2: what was going on. They kept questioning me and pulling

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Speaker 2: me on and stuff. They kept telling me that they

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Speaker 2: weren't going to help me find out what happened to

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Speaker 2: my daughter. And there was nothing more that I wanted

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Speaker 2: at that point than to find out what happened to

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Speaker 2: my Robin.

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Speaker 1: So you trusted only, you know, you thought he was trying.

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Speaker 6: To help you.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely I did. I had no doubt that. No, I

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Speaker 2: believe he was very upstand you know, I never thought

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Speaker 2: any difference. Yes, I had full faith in him.

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Speaker 4: By this time, the police had determined that the fire

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Speaker 4: was not an accident. Karen picked up on the fact

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Speaker 4: that she was the main suspect during an almost ten

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Speaker 4: hour interrogation eight days after the fire. She was grieving

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Speaker 4: the loss of her daughter and alarmed that investigators would

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Speaker 4: even consider her the culprit.

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Speaker 2: I was shocked. It was just like, how in the

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Speaker 2: world could you think this, you know, just about me,

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Speaker 2: that I was part of anything of that. It went

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Speaker 2: on for hours and hours. You know, I was doing

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Speaker 2: everything I could to convince them that just wasn't absolutely,

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Speaker 2: you know, nothing at all, that I had anything I'd

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Speaker 2: all have to do with this, you know.

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Speaker 4: Karen says that in those days she was an alcoholic

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Speaker 4: working on recovery, even though she had been about forty

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Speaker 4: days sober at the time. The police started asking her

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Speaker 4: if maybe she blacked out and intentionally started the fire.

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Speaker 2: They kept giving me different scenarios of what they thought

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Speaker 2: could have happened. And I'll say, Karen, I'll just put

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Speaker 2: yourself in these shoes. You know, you're walking through the room.

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Speaker 2: You're doing this and that and this, and now what

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Speaker 2: did you see? What did you do that? And so

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Speaker 2: on and so forth, And it went on for hours,

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Speaker 2: like psychological imagine you're a little devil sitting on your shoulder,

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Speaker 2: and on the other shoulder there's an angel and they're

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Speaker 2: talking to you, and the angels saying, oh, you know

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Speaker 2: you love your daughter and would never do anything to her.

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Speaker 4: Karen says only actually presented the scenario to her. He

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Speaker 4: said to concentrate on what he called her good mind

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Speaker 4: and bad mind, but she kept denying any involvement. She says.

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Speaker 4: She continued to answer their questions, hoping they would figure

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Speaker 4: out the truth of what happened to her daughter. But

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Speaker 4: that's not what happened. Special Agent Eduardo Fernandez actually told

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Speaker 4: Karen they found evidence against her like fingerprints on the

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Speaker 4: gas can, but it was a lie. At this point,

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Speaker 4: they didn't even have the results back yet, and later

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Speaker 4: when the results did come back, remember no prints were

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00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:43,359
Speaker 4: found on the gas can. After hours of interrogation, the

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Speaker 4: police finally broke Karen down. She wavered, saying maybe she

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Speaker 4: was in a dream or an unconscious state when the

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Speaker 4: fire started. In my conscious mind, I didn't do this,

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Speaker 4: Karen told them, But I could have went temporarily insane

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Speaker 4: after the interrogation, Karen was so distraught, Wayne brought her

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00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,679
Speaker 4: to a psychiatric hospital for two nights. Once she recovered,

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Speaker 4: Karen again vehemently denied any involvement. In subsequent interviews, she

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Speaker 4: told the officers she knew they were lying about information

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Speaker 4: they relayed to her, but it didn't matter. About six

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Speaker 4: weeks after Robin's death, on September twelfth, Karen was arrested

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Speaker 4: and charged with felony murder.

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Speaker 2: I was just totally shocked when they told me, and

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Speaker 2: the arrest of the devis it was just crazy, tell me.

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Speaker 4: Karen's trial started on February fourth, two thousand and three.

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Speaker 4: The prosecutor was John Holsang, who is now a judge

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Speaker 4: in Michigan. His theory was that Karen intentionally started the

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Speaker 4: fire in the hallway outside of Robin's room because their

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00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,320
Speaker 4: relationship was so fraud and her drinking problem sent her

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00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:09,119
Speaker 4: over the edge enough to kill her child. Expert testimony

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Speaker 4: was presented by two fire investigators, special Agent Michael Marquart

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Speaker 4: from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives and

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Speaker 4: John Dehan, an expert who was retained by the state.

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Speaker 4: They had both said the fire started in the hallway,

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Speaker 4: but by this time they had the results of the

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00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,719
Speaker 4: hallway samples, and despite the fact that no ignitable liquid

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Speaker 4: residue was detected there, they still said an accelerant must

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Speaker 4: have been used. They made their conclusions based on the

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Speaker 4: fire damage patterns. The prosecution also played parts of the

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Speaker 4: recordings of Karen's interrogations, specifically talking about being potentially blacked

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Speaker 4: out or in a dream. Attorney David Zessen represented Karen

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00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:55,960
Speaker 4: on cross examination. Zessen asked investigator Eduardo Fernandez about lying

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Speaker 4: to Karen. Fernandez answered, quote, not only am I trained

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Speaker 4: in the h I teach that end quote it is

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00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 4: actually legal for police to lie during interrogations. Zessen also

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00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 4: presented his own expert who refuted the state's fire evidence.

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00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 4: He said the fire actually started in Robin's room, noting

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Speaker 4: that no accelerant was sound in the hallway and that

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00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:22,399
Speaker 4: Robin's room quote contained numerous sources of ignition. The expert

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Speaker 4: also said that the person who set the fire would

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Speaker 4: have severe burn injuries or at least singing of the

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Speaker 4: eyebrow's hair and some clothing. While Karen showed none of

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00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,920
Speaker 4: these signs, Robin's autopsy revealed exactly that her eyebrows, hair,

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Speaker 4: and clothing were scorched, suggesting the fire did start in

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Speaker 4: Robin's room and was perhaps even started by Robin. The

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Speaker 4: autopsy also found that she died of asphyxiation, likely passing

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Speaker 4: out from the smoke before she died. There were no

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Speaker 4: signs of a struggle or fight of any kind and

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00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:03,400
Speaker 4: no injuries other than those from the fire, but this

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Speaker 4: wasn't enough for the jury. On February twenty first, two

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Speaker 4: thousand and three, forty seven year olds Karen Bows was

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Speaker 4: found guilty of first degree felony murder of her daughter.

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Speaker 4: She was sentenced to life in prison without parole.

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Speaker 2: I thought, anytime they're gonna know, I'll figure out that

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Speaker 2: I didn't do this. I had that feeling up until

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Speaker 2: the time the jury came to a verdict. I believed

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Speaker 2: in the system fully. I knew I wasn't guilty. I

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Speaker 2: was sure that everything was going to work out all right. Boy,

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Speaker 2: sure sounds like a good Pollyanna story, doesn't.

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Speaker 4: Karen's first years in prison were unimaginable. Sentenced to death

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Speaker 4: by incarceration for the murder of her beloved daughter.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot of few years there after Robin

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Speaker 2: died that I didn't feel like I had any reason

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Speaker 2: to live, and I really didn't want to.

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Speaker 4: At first, Karen's husband, Wayne, was her supporter. He was

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Speaker 4: adamant she didn't start the fire, that she couldn't have,

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Speaker 4: but then he learned about something Karen had told police

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00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 4: during the investigation. While questioning her, the police asked Karen

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00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 4: if she wanted to get anything out in the open.

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00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 4: She told them years earlier she had an affair, but

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Speaker 4: Wayne didn't know about this.

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Speaker 2: The police told him about it and sold them be

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00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 2: kind of turned against me, really turned against me. So

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Speaker 2: I'll expected that, and it really felt like I broke

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Speaker 2: up the pan. He wasn't enough stick around with me

345
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Speaker 2: since I had an affair, So it was just me

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Speaker 2: and my man was just my false as all.

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00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: And what was going on with your son during all

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Speaker 1: of this?

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00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 2: He was just kind of living this teenage life he

350
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 2: had become eighteen. Shortly after Robin died, he was devastated,

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Speaker 2: of course, as we all were. While we're having Steff,

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Speaker 2: and he sort of just stayed neutral, you know, and

353
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 2: through the trial and everything, he no longer is neutral.

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Speaker 4: Karen says she knows Billy now has a family of

355
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Speaker 4: his own, but she's never met her grandchildren. Nor has

356
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Speaker 4: she seen Billy in decades.

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Speaker 1: So he's never visited you.

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00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 2: No, No, he hasn't. He really believed, like his father,

359
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,360
Speaker 2: that I just ruined everything.

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Speaker 1: Does he think that you're you're the one who who

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Speaker 1: killed Robin?

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Speaker 2: Understand he said he didn't know, and now he says,

363
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Speaker 2: the court saw me guilty. I'm guilty and as authors

364
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: to it. So I just had then had to come

365
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: to terms with that, you know, to some sort of

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Speaker 2: peace with that.

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Speaker 4: Through the years, despite her situation, Karen pushed on with

368
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 4: life in prison.

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Speaker 2: I am just had some very good jobs. I've had

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00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 2: a lot of good training. They have a good mental

371
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 2: health vice here and I've just been able to take

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00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 2: a lot of classes, and I was mentor at to

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00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 2: different places for ten years. So I'm just very very

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00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 2: fulfilling life. I paid here, but.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't until a few years ago that things started

376
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Speaker 4: to really look up for Karen.

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00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 7: I'm David Moran. I'm the co director of the Michigan

378
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 7: Innocence Clinic at the University of Michigan Law.

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Speaker 1: School, and you are Karen's attorney.

380
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 7: I am.

381
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 4: In twenty nineteen, David and the Michigan Innocence Clinic took

382
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 4: on Karen's case. David says, right off the bat, the

383
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 4: entire investigation was bad, and he knew this because he's

384
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 4: very familiar with forensic science. Before he decided to go

385
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 4: to law school, David was part way through his PhD

386
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 4: in particle physics that forensic science cases interest and infuriate him.

387
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 7: That fire investigation concluded that the fire had started in

388
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 7: the hallway outside Robin's bedroom, when in fact, all the

389
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 7: evidence really indicates that the fire started inside Robin's bedroom.

390
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Speaker 4: If you're wondering how this kind of disagreement on where

391
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 4: the fire started could exist, David says, it has to

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00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,959
Speaker 4: do with how fire investigations have evolved over the years.

393
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 7: Fire investigation, until really about fifteen years ago, was pretty

394
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 7: much junk science. Nationwide. Fire investigators were generally not trained scientists.

395
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 7: They were actually usually retired firemen, and they were passed

396
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 7: down wisdom from prior fire investigators, and so much of

397
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 7: this wisdom had never been tested. And so the fire

398
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 7: investigation community was taught that if you see certain signs

399
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 7: that tells you that a fire was an arson, that

400
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 7: an accelerant was used, and also you can use some

401
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 7: of these signs to determine exactly where the fire started.

402
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 5: He says.

403
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 4: An example of such a sign is something called an

404
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 4: alligator ring.

405
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 7: The idea that you could look at the wood beams

406
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 7: and if the wood beams had looked scaly like the

407
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 7: back of an alligator, that was a sign that an

408
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 7: accelerant was used. Or if aluminum bedsprings or door thresholds

409
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 7: had melted that was another sign.

410
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 4: Says. This kind of determination changed after a series of

411
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 4: large brushfires in California that burned down many.

412
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 7: Homes, and after the homes burnt, fire investigators went into

413
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 7: some of the homes and they discovered that some of

414
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 7: the same signs that they had been relying on to

415
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 7: declare fires. Accelerated arsons were present in these homes for

416
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 7: which they knew the cause, which was a brushfire. And

417
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 7: so now we know a lot more than we did

418
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 7: nearly two decades ago when Karen was tried.

419
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 4: But at the time, fire investigators were still relying on

420
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 4: these old methods, and so a jury was misled to

421
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 4: think the fire started in the hall and that it

422
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 4: was started intentionally. David and the team also discovered one

423
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 4: of the state's experts, John Dehan, was not reliable. In

424
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 4: twenty fifteen, Dehan was found to have quote violated ethical

425
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 4: and professional standards of conduct for forensic scientists in a

426
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 4: past fire investigation. And remember, Aran didn't have any accelerant

427
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 4: on her, no burning or singing that a person would

428
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 4: have if they started the fire.

429
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's very very hard to sprinkle or poor gasoline

430
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 7: around without getting it on yourself.

431
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 4: But Robin did have accelerant on her. The team also

432
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 4: acknowledged the alleged confession Karen made.

433
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 7: And all of the techniques that we now know are

434
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 7: most likely to produce a false confession from an innocent

435
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 7: person were deployed on Karen. So First of all, they

436
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 7: had a friendly figure, Chief Onney, who was a friend

437
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 7: of the family, played a major role in interrogations in

438
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 7: order to gain Karen's confidence. They flagrantly lied about the

439
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 7: evidence that has been shown in study after study in

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00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 7: recent years to regularly produce completely false confessions from mediicent people.

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Speaker 4: So in twenty twenty one, David and the Michigan Innocence

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Speaker 4: Clinic compiled all their new evidence about fire signing and

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Speaker 4: false confessions into a petition. Your document states that based

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Speaker 4: on all of this, Karen deserves to have her case reinvestigated,

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Speaker 4: and they're hopeful.

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Speaker 7: Of the thirty exonerations we've had since we opened in

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Speaker 7: two thousand and nine, I think about a third of

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Speaker 7: them have involved bad science of some kind.

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Speaker 4: At sixty six, Karen is hopeful for the future. She

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Speaker 4: thinks about getting out every single day and meeting her grandkids,

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Speaker 4: but she especially thinks about Robin.

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Speaker 2: I would like to go to my daughter's grave.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, go that.

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Speaker 2: I just want to enjoy life, to hangout with my friends,

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Speaker 2: hope to get a part time job somewhere and get

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Speaker 2: living my life and be with my grandchildren and be

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Speaker 2: a good grandma to my grandchildren. That just keep you know.

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Speaker 4: The motion that David and the Michigan Innocence Clinic filed

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Speaker 4: is still pending. If you want to help Karen, please

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Speaker 4: go to Freekarenbows dot com to find out more information.

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Speaker 4: Next time on Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling, Sylvia Boykin.

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Speaker 6: I kept telling him I had three children at home,

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Speaker 6: and he kept saying, well, if you sign this, I'll

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Speaker 6: let you go home. And so I was like, but

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Speaker 6: this is not what happened. He's like, sign this and

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Speaker 6: we will let you go. I signed the paper and

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Speaker 6: I never left prison.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling.

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00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 4: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the

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Speaker 4: links in our bio to see how you can help.

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00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 4: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm and

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00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 4: Kevin Wurdis, as well as our senior producer Annie Chelsea,

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00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 4: researcher Lila Robinson, story editor Sonia Paul, with additional production

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00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 4: by Jeff Cleiburn and Connor Hall. The music in this

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00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 4: production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

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Speaker 4: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

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00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 4: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast and on Twitter at

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00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 4: Wrongful Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

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00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 4: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

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00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 4: Instagram and Twitter at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie

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Speaker 4: Freeling is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in

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Speaker 4: association with Signal Company Number one