WEBVTT - #190 Jason Flom with Joann Parks 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:06.480 Joanne and Ron Parks lived with their three children, Ronald, Roanne, 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.080 and Jessica, in a three bedroom rental house that had 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:11.680 been converted from a garage on the back half of 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:15.640 a piece of property in Bell, California. Joanne and Ron's 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.880 bedroom had an exterior door. On the night of April ninth, 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:22.760 nineteen eighty nine, Ron was at work and Joanne had 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:26.720 put the kids and herself to bed. Then just after midnight, 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.639 Joanne woke to the piercing screams of her children and 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:32.680 the flames of a fire that had suddenly engulfed her home. 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.920 The fire drove Joanne from the house, looking for help 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.479 that couldn't come soon enough to save the children. The 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.680 fire was initially ruled to be accidental, and Joanne and 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.160 Ron moved to Saint Louis to try to rebuild their 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.760 shattered lives. Over the course of the next four years, 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:54.320 rumors and pressure mounted in Bell, California, urging authorities to 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:59.640 answer somehow for this inexplicable and horrific tragedy, and investigators 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:03.200 who had been trained in the old, totally unscientific methods 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:07.360 of arson investigation would change their theory and blame Joanne 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:10.640 for the deaths of her children. Since nineteen eighty nine, 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:14.119 bass strides have been made in fire science and investigations, 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:16.360 but none of that will ever make up for the 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:20.279 twenty nine years Joanne spent in prison, and absolutely nothing 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:25.319 will ever replace her children. This is Wrongful Conviction with 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:41.959 Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:44.240 That's me, of course, I'm your host. I want to 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:48.400 introduce to two amazing women that we have on the 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:53.080 show today. The first one Raquel Cohen. Raquel is an 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:57.480 attorney with the California Innocence Project and she is a 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:02.400 certified badass. And I'm Miquel. I'm just really excited to 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:03.760 have you here. Welcome to the show. 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:05.840 Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:09.880 And the woman of the hour, I'm so excited to 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:12.079 have her in the free world and on the air 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:15.680 with us now. A woman who has endured the most extraordinary, 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:20.639 terrifying saga imaginable and who stayed strong and is here 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.800 to tell about it is Joanne Parks. Joanne, I'm sorry 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:25.880 for what you went through, but I'm happy you're here. 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:28.800 Me too, I'm happy to be here with both of you. 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:31.400 Where did you grow up. Let's start with that. 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.640 My mom brought me out to California at the age 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.399 of three, and I grew up in Highland Park, California. 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.640 Life was okay as a child. I didn't know anything different. 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:47.000 I met my husband at the age of sixteen. 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:51.120 And then ultimately you ended up moving to bell California. Right, 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.959 you marry this guy. You have three kids, Ronald, Roanne 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.360 and Jessica. They're all little little kids at the time 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.639 of this awful tragedy. And we're talking, of course, about 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:06.079 April ninth, nineteen eighty nine. That's a long long time ago, 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.440 and it hurts me to think about all those years 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:12.520 lost in prison and also the tragedy that befail you 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:17.160 in your family. Joanne, this is obviously the worst nightmare 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:21.480 that any mom, any parent can endure, but you lived it. 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:25.200 Can you explain what that horrible night was like. 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.679 I put my children down for the night. They had 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:36.360 just finished watching a movie that they like, Harry and Henderson, 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.920 and Jessica took her for steps. That night, we had 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.480 just moved in. We had lived there about seven days 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:49.800 before the fire happened, and I was unpacking a few 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:54.320 boxes and so I got sleepy and I went to sleep, 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:00.600 and around midnight I heard this blood curling screened from 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.520 my son, and when I opened up the bedroom door, 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:11.400 there was nothing but fire and smoke. So I ran 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:16.599 out to the front house and was knocking on the 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:24.360 door for help, and I went in with the neighbor, 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:28.600 Shirley Robinson, and we called nine one one and her 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.000 husband went out to try to get in the house 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:37.240 to get the kids, and there was no success. They 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.640 put me and miss Robinson across the street and they 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:45.840 had us sitting on a curb at first, and I 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:48.520 kept asking for my kids, and they kept telling me 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:50.360 it was gonna be okay. It was gonna be okay, 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:54.599 They're gonna be okay. And I believed them. I believed 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:59.040 that everything was gonna be okay. But part of me 0:04:59.240 --> 0:04:59.800 deep down. 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:04.039 Inside because I didn't see anybody come out, Yeah, that 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:08.600 wasn't gonna be okay. And I found out later they 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:13.200 thought my son had gotten out because they couldn't find him. 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.240 So they were asking for a diagram of the house 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:20.040 where they were sleeping, and they said they were searching 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:23.839 the neighborhood from and come to find out that he 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:25.480 went into the closet to hie. 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:29.760 Yeah, that's basically what happened that night. 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:35.800 It's incomprehensible, all of it. And Raquela, I mean, this 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:37.800 is way I got to turn to you and say, 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:40.080 how did it go so far wrong? 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:44.960 I mean, yeah, how I asked myself that all the time. 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:48.360 So back in nineteen eighty nine, when her house went 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:54.880 up in flames, fire investigation really wasn't anything scientific. There 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:59.120 was no findings. Fire investigators at the time were trained 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:02.200 by their superior so if their superiors or training them wrong, 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:07.920 they were investigating fires wrong, and they were very opinionated 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:12.320 without anything to support it. The investigators originally came into 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:14.880 the house, looked around, and said that it was an accident, 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:18.800 just a bad tragedy, and then as time went on, 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:23.880 they changed their opinion. They had the same evidence, same 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:28.760 physical evidence, same burn patterns, same chords, same information, except 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:32.279 they started getting some outside information that led them to 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:36.240 believe that Joanne was a monster, that she started these 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:40.720 fires for whatever reason. They believed it was financial gain 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.360 because she didn't want her children, which is absurd. I mean, 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:46.960 if you look back at her probation officer's report and 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:48.960 you look at the people who testified for her. She 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.279 was a very loving mother. The investigator learned that she 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.840 had a fire in her house prior to the nineteen 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:58.240 eighty nine fire, and all of a sudden, they believed 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:03.640 somewhere that they had this obligation to solve this fire 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.799 and make it a crime so that a community had answers. 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:08.960 So they had tunnel vision and they went in and 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:11.320 they looked at this evidence at the time and they said, 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:15.320 the only explanation is that the person who was home, 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:19.720 Joe Ann, started two separate fires, locked one of her 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.679 children in a closet, and then left the house. Today 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:26.680 we know that's not true. And my biggest problem with 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.960 this case is knowing that the science does not support 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:30.760 that conclusion. 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.960 What is their goal? Now, that's a question that keeps 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:34.560 me up at night. 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:38.520 Yeah, it's not just illegal, it's a moral failing across 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:42.000 the board. And in many ways the law can be 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:45.320 the enemy of science. But it's really true in arson 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.640 cases because for the longest time it was all just 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:52.560 myth and superstition. And you know, I got a feeling 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.320 and somebody told me once that if glass has cracked 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:57.760 a certain way, or there's a certain chipping, pattern on 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:01.640 the concrete, or if there's an alligator pattern on the wall, 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.320 it's an indication of an accelerant, and this and that, 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.240 and none of this was ever ever rooted in science. 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:09.240 In fact, many of these people that claimed to be 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.800 science experts have a high school diploma if that, and 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:15.760 they may have trained for forty hours to become a 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:21.400 quote unquote expert, and yet they're allowed to testify at trials. So, Joanne, 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:27.560 you'd now lost everything and gone through something that it's unspeakable, 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:32.000 as unimaginable for anyone, and then things inexplicably somehow managed 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:34.920 to still get worse. When did you realize that they 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:38.240 were actually suspecting that you had set this fire? And 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.080 when did you get arrested? And what was that like? 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:45.480 I didn't know that they suspected me of the fire. 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:50.160 They had questioned us, I even had I think it 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:54.559 was Leicester Frazelle tell me that the fire was accidental. 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.720 So I never thought in a million years I was 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:03.240 going to be arrested. I went on with my life 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:07.240 the best that I could. I was working in the 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:11.000 nursing field as a nurse's aide. My husband moved us 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.559 from here to Saint Louis because he wanted to be 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:17.319 closer to his family. So all of a sudden, one 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:21.240 day I was told that there was some officers downstairs. 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:23.080 I told him to send them up. I didn't know 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:26.120 what they were there for, and they came up. I 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:31.200 went in the hallway to meet them, and they arrested me. 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:37.320 I couldn't understand what was going on. I couldn't comprehend, 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:41.760 and then they extra died me back out here to 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:46.880 California and we went through trial. My attorney told me 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.319 to sit in court and look straight ahead, don't make 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.520 no eye contact with the jury, don't make no eye 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:59.360 contact with the witnesses. Just sip forward and keep quiet. 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:04.920 And I did because I didn't know anything different. I 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:09.559 didn't know that city like that or acting like that 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.880 was gonna be bad for me and show that I 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:15.760 had no feelings that I didn't care. 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:19.400 I mean, that's always an aspect of this stuff that 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:22.760 is so shameful when people say that a grieving mother 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:26.400 or someone who has just experienced trauma like that is 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:29.320 acting too upset or not upset enough, or you know, 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.720 is too stoic, or it's like just shut the fuck up. 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:37.280 Nobody can tell anyone how they're supposed to act, and 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.120 no one knows how you are going to act, or 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:42.440 anyone's going to act if they go through something so extreme. 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:46.960 But this is now four years after the fire. Raquel 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:48.680 what happened at the trial. 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.280 I've read these transcripts a few times. It's about six 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:54.520 thousand pages. The big thing that convicted her was her 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:57.319 child was in the closet. So they spent an enormous 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:00.800 amount of time on whether the door was open unclosed, 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.240 And the prosecution's theory was that the closet door where 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:06.920 Donald was found was not only closed, but that it 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:11.319 was barricaded with a closed hamper and a pet dish. 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:15.120 And they did this entire reconstruction of the area. They 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.600 brought in like the actual door and this hamper that 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:19.920 they found, which by the way, wasn't even in the room. 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:22.480 It had been thrown out in overhaul. It was found 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:25.720 somewhere outside, and they cleaned the carpet in front of there, 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.120 and they made this like pattern that didn't exist until 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.960 they cleaned the carpet, and they put all these puzzle 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.120 pieces together and they were like, we got it. The 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:37.079 door was barricaded with a closed hamper, By the way, 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.960 Ronnie was four. My kids are now five and eight. 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:41.480 A four year old can open a door with a 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:43.800 closed hamper in front of it, so I already think 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:48.200 that's bullshit. Nevertheless, they focused on that. Then you have 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.680 the two areas of origin. The prosecution came in and 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:54.520 said that there was two areas of origin, which is 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:58.160 oftentimes an indicator of an ursen, the first area being 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:01.800 in the front living room under the north window, and 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.559 the second being in the girl's room. The defence came 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.800 in and said, you can't say that because this house 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:11.559 had flashed over, or specifically, the girl's bedroom had flashed over, 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.080 and that pattern is more consistent with flashover. And the 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.120 prosecution came in and was like, flashover didn't happen. There's 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.800 no way it happened. Don't listen to this guy. They 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:25.120 mocked the defense expert saying, oh man, all he's so 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:29.000 concerned with flashover, flashover, flashover. You can't trust anything. He says, 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:32.640 he's trying to confuse you with this concept of flashover. Well, 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:36.480 fast forward twenty years and sure shit, the house flashed over. 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:38.839 Andy, can you explain flash over real quick? 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:41.240 So when you have a fire in a house. Let's 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:44.040 say it starts on a chair in the corner. What's 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:46.040 going to happen is all the smoke is going to 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:47.640 go up, and it's going to be like an upside 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:49.760 down bathtub. The smoke is going to fill up from 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.640 the top down. But the smoke gets so hot that 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:56.280 it ignites everything in the room, and so it becomes 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.360 from a fire in a room to a room on fire, 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.720 and it's an instant thing where everything that's combustible just ignites. 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:05.960 At the same time, if you put that fire out 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.600 before it flashes over, it's going to be very obvious 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.200 where the fire started. Those are simple fires, and I 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:13.839 think that fire investigators are very good at figuring that out. 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.160 But once it goes to flashover, patterns are being made 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.320 that look like origin patterns, Ventilation coming in in the 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:24.240 house or causing patterns to either be skewed, destroyed, or created, 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:29.319 and so now that's when your fire investigation becomes non scientific. 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:33.400 The defense expert at the trial also brought up the 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:37.240 fact that there was at zena television that brand had 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:42.040 been known to start fires, but the problem with investigating 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:45.200 that television set was that the prosecution threw it out 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.440 when they were investigating the fire to begin with, and 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.400 so no one was able to analyze that television. So 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.960 today we argue, well, we have research that this television, 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.000 this zenith, has been known to start a bunch of 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.760 fires during all these years. It was introduced at trial 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:02.840 because they threw the television set out, We'll never know. 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.800 And so even though the defense expert was on the 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.360 right track, he was ahead of his time in the field, 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.480 but he just didn't present it well and he was 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:16.800 up against a prosecution that was determined and successful at 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:20.120 just destroying his credibility when it came to explaining that 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:21.160 second area of origin. 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:26.920 And when the jury went out, do you remember thinking 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:30.040 that they were finally going to see that you were 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:31.880 a victim, not a monster. 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:35.880 I was hoping that what they were going to see. 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:37.960 I was hoping that they were going to come back 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:42.240 and say not guilty. Then my attorney had came to 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:46.359 me with a deal life without the possibility of pearl. 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:51.560 I didn't do anything. I'm not taking that deal. And 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.600 the jury came back with a guilty verdict, came back 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:56.320 with guilty verdict, and that I was thought I was 0:14:56.360 --> 0:15:01.520 going through another trial to whether I'm going to get 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.280 since to death or life without possibility of parole. 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:17.280 This episode is underwritten by the AIG pro Bono Program. 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:21.040 AIG is a leading global insurance company, and for over 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:24.880 a decade, the AIG pro Bono Program has provided thousands 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.960 of hours of free legal services and other support to 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:32.520 nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need. More recently, the 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:36.320 program added criminal and social justice reform as a key 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:40.840 pillar of its mission. This episode is brought to you 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:45.160 by Stand Together. Stand Together is a philanthropic community dedicated 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:48.640 to helping people improve their lives. For more than twenty years, 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.840 Stand Together and its partners have been on the front 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:54.720 lines of criminal justice reform. By empowering people to take action, 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:59.400 supporting nonprofits, and working with businesses, Stand Together tackles the 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.320 root cause is the problems in our communities and empowers 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.880 those closest to the problems to drive solutions. Solutions like 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:10.240 reducing unjust prison sentences through the First Step Act, empowering 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.520 community based programs and help people re enter society, and 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:17.440 now working to bridge divides in our communities. To learn 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:28.120 how you may get involved, visit standtogether dot org, slash conviction. Ultimately, 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:30.760 we know that they did sence you to life without 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:31.920 the possibility of parole. 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:36.880 I was twenty seven years old, never been arrested before 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:43.520 for anything. You go in there, and I've been all 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.160 over the news, and the first thing you're told is 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:55.240 don't talk about your kate because childcases are strongly frowned upon, 0:16:56.240 --> 0:17:00.320 and things happen to you when you're in prison those 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:04.080 type of cases. After I got to prison, I got 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:08.439 a letter from mister Lowe, who was the investigator on 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.280 my case, and he told me that I should have 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:15.639 never gotten found guilty and that when my appeal was 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:19.359 over with, if I got denied, to get in contact 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.240 with him and deal Winters because they weren't going to 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:24.200 leave me in prison for the rest of my life. 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.119 And so I think it was in like ninety six 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:33.000 or something my appeal was denied and I reached out 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:40.440 to mister low and he investigated my case. He dug 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:45.159 into my background, dug into my husband, Ron's background. He 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:49.480 did everything he could do to help me. Him and 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:53.920 his daughter Mary Ross. I was in contact with her 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:59.159 a lot by phone, and she was like, write the 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:02.720 Innocent Project, and so I did, and they finally took 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:07.240 my case on. But prison's hard. I was called baby killer. 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:11.359 I had it written across my sheets. It was really 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:17.359 hard until my best friend came into my life, Denise 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:24.000 Sugar Moore. She taught me that I was worth loving 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:30.240 and I was worth fighting for, and that my kids 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:37.439 didn't blame me. We're not saving them, and that I 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:44.120 needed to fight for them and honor them and don't 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.879 let prison me the last place I'd be. From that 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:52.359 point on, every advantage that prison gave I jumped on. 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:57.120 I got my AA in Arts and Humanities. I got 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:01.160 different trades so that if I ever was to be released, 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.240 I could be able to get a job. I did 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:09.879 everything I possibly could to turn around a negative into 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:15.120 a positive experience for myself in honor of my children. 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:20.800 Wow, that's powerful. I mean she was almost like a 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:23.880 guardian angel, I guess. And she wasn't the only one, 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:26.879 of course, the one who's on the air with us 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:30.160 right now. Raquel, when did you get involved in the case, 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.760 And then obviously this became sort of your driving passion, 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:35.879 right I know how you feel about joe Anne about 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:36.359 this case. 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:39.520 Oh yeah, Joe Anne's the person for me. I owe 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:42.359 her so much in so many ways. I believe Joanne 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.840 first wrote the California Innocence Project in two thousand and two. 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:47.560 I was still in college then. 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.919 At that point, not only did CIP not have the resources, 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.760 the changes in the science just weren't quite there yet. 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:57.679 There was ways to help her, but it didn't have 0:19:57.800 --> 0:19:58.440 legs yet. 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.000 And then in two thousand and seven, I was actually 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:04.360 a clinical intern in the California Innocence Project when her 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:07.000 case came back, it wasn't actually assigned to me, It 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:09.639 was assigned to one of my fellow students who began 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:12.080 working on it, and his name was Matt Benninger. He 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.520 actually reached out to John Lentini, who had started the 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:19.760 Arson Review Panel and had Joanne's case submitted to him 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:20.360 for review. 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:23.119 And John Lentini, you know, we did an episode of 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:27.080 the Wrongful Conviction Junk Science podcast in which Josh Duben 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.919 and Barry Scheck discussed the John Lentini origin story. And 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.040 John was a prosecution expert in a case in Florida 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:36.840 where he went in to confirm that the fire that 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:39.639 had burned down and someone had been killed was intentionally 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.040 set and it just so happened at a stroke of luck. 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:43.680 That was a house next door that was the exact 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:46.480 same construction, and he had this idea, well, why don't 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:48.840 we just put the same furniture because it was abandoned 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:50.920 or empty at the time. So he had this idea 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:53.719 that they would recreate the exact same furniture and everything 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:55.760 else in the other house. And I think they left 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:57.639 a cigarette on the chair or a couch or something. 0:20:57.760 --> 0:20:59.600 The house burned down, they examined it and it was 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:02.959 exus exactly the same as the house next door, and 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:04.919 at that point he realized that this was not an 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.960 arson fire, that this was an accidental fire. And in 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.000 study after study, it's been proved again and again that 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:16.199 this arson quote unquote science is absolute horseshit. And Cameron 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:18.680 Todd Willingham is a focus of that episode as well, 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:21.359 who was executed by the State of Texas for a 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:24.400 very similar situation to Joanne's where he lost his three 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:27.800 kids and of course was just as innocent as she is. 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:31.920 And so rest in peace, Cameron Todd Willingham. So back 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:33.120 to this, So I. 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:36.320 Became a staff attorney at the California Andison's Project in 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:41.280 twenty eleven, and around that time, maybe then in twenty twelve, 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:45.080 I began supervising the students who were responsible for Joanne's 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:47.520 case and to be the best advocate I can be 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:51.200 for Joanne. I have immersed myself in the fire investigation field. 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:55.600 I've pretty much pushed my way into their conferences. I 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:59.920 now trained their fire investigators on how to properly write 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:04.520 reports and come to proper scientifically sound conclusions if they can. 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:08.480 And it has been another driving force and passion because 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:12.040 I never want this to happen to somebody else. Her case, though, 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:15.399 was a false scientific evidence case, and in twenty twelve, 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:19.080 the California Supreme Court made a ruling that pretty much 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:22.400 precluded Joanne for bringing her case to court. They said 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:26.240 experts can't have false opinions. That was based on the 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:29.000 Bill Richards case, a bitemarket case which we all know 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:34.720 where bitemark evidence stands. And in twenty fifteen our office 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:37.679 we had the false scientific evidence law change so that 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:40.879 experts can have false opinions. And it was that same 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:43.439 year that I filed her case. I filed it in 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.800 the Los Angeles Superior Court claiming that the experts at 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:51.000 trial falsely testified flashover had not occurred. And that was 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:53.840 very important because based on the research that we know 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:56.680 today that changes the entire investigation. 0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:00.679 So we're up to twenty seventeen. Now, how did we 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:03.440 get to the present? What happened between twenty seventeen and 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:04.320 twenty twenty one. 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:07.600 So we filed the case in twenty fifteen and we 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:10.879 got a hearing. So twenty seventeen rolls around. But what 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.320 happened was I thought, slam dunk, we're going to get 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:15.560 a deal. Joe Anne's going to walk home because they 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:18.840 admit flashover happened. So based on all of this research, 0:23:18.920 --> 0:23:22.000 they have to admit that this case doesn't hold water, right, 0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:25.960 And instead they said, no, we're going to bring in 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:28.919 some pattern experts and we're going to show that you 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:31.520 can still have the same findings. At the time, I 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:33.960 was working with Paul Bieber, who was a big advocate 0:23:34.040 --> 0:23:37.439 for the defense and moving this science forward, and he said, 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:41.520 you need Gregory Gorbett on your team, and they just 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:44.040 won a case in Kentucky, the Robert Yell case, with 0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:47.919 the same issues as Joanne's. I reached out to greg 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:50.800 and he took a look at the case and he 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:54.639 became our star witness to testify to show that the 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:58.520 burn patterns were shit science and that there's nothing to 0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:02.200 support the prosecution theory. I thought we were gonna win. 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:07.200 I thought the judge could see through the prosecution experts bullshit. 0:24:07.680 --> 0:24:11.399 The prosecution's expert, Brian Hobak, testified at the evidentiary hearing 0:24:11.760 --> 0:24:14.680 that the way he was able to differentiate the pattern 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:18.320 from an origin and ventilation driven pattern was because he 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:24.080