WEBVTT - Pai Rolls Back FCC Net Neutrality Rules (Audio)

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<v Speaker 1>Federal Communication Communications Chairman A Pie yesterday announced plans to

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<v Speaker 1>loosen the regulations that apply to Internet service providers. The

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<v Speaker 1>two year old rules have become known as net neutrality,

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<v Speaker 1>and among other things, they bar broadband companies from giving

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<v Speaker 1>preferential access to favored content providers. With us today to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about this announcement yesterday is Robert McDowell. He's a

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<v Speaker 1>former FEC commissioner now a partner at the law firm Cooley.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us, Rob, thanks so much for having me. Um. So,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm guessing you, when you're on the SEC, you you

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<v Speaker 1>oppose at least an earlier version of the net neutrality rules.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm guessing you think that what the Chairman did yesterday

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<v Speaker 1>is a good thing. Tell tell us why. Well. First,

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<v Speaker 1>net neutrality has no legal term of our no legal definition.

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<v Speaker 1>So UM, it's important to understand what we're talking about.

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<v Speaker 1>I think we're talking about a free and open Internet

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<v Speaker 1>where consumers can free roam and use UH and download

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<v Speaker 1>the content and apps of their choice, provided their lawful

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<v Speaker 1>and things of that nature. And that's what we've had

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<v Speaker 1>since the Internet was privatized in the mid nineteen nineties.

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<v Speaker 1>UH with other laws under other law, and for the

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<v Speaker 1>first six years of the Obama administration it was other law.

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<v Speaker 1>What the FEC did over two years ago, though, was

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<v Speaker 1>to use the nineteen thirty four law to classify Internet

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<v Speaker 1>access services broadband services as a telecommunications service, something called

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<v Speaker 1>in the shorthands Title two's Title two of the Communications

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<v Speaker 1>Acts of four to get technical and that brings with

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<v Speaker 1>it about a thousand different legal requirements and a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of questions as a result. So what a jeep Pie,

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<v Speaker 1>my friend and former colleague we served together on the

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<v Speaker 1>FECs is doing is proposing we think we haven't seen

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<v Speaker 1>the proposal just yet, but what he outlined yesterday um

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<v Speaker 1>is to try to figure out a different legal path

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<v Speaker 1>to do that so that all parts of the Internet

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<v Speaker 1>ecosystem can thrive without these uncertainties. Rob, how high are

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<v Speaker 1>the stakes here? You know the stakes are high. But

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<v Speaker 1>the good news is is that you know, prior to

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<v Speaker 1>or ten, when the FEC tried another time to impose

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<v Speaker 1>new rule, uh, the Internet marketplace was thriving both. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>if you look at the the edge providers content and

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<v Speaker 1>apps and services of one form or another. Uh, we're

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<v Speaker 1>all thriving as we're network operators. It was the wireless companies,

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<v Speaker 1>the cable companies, the phone companies that actually connect consumers

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<v Speaker 1>to the Internet. And so the trick here is to

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<v Speaker 1>try to find that sweet spot, that balance, which I'm

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<v Speaker 1>optimistic can be found. Maybe it has to be found

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<v Speaker 1>through Congress as well. That's a whole another topic we

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<v Speaker 1>can talk about. But the stakes are high because it

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<v Speaker 1>is the future of the Internet. But the good news

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<v Speaker 1>is is that everything has been thriving thus far even

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<v Speaker 1>without these Title two rules that went into effect two

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<v Speaker 1>years ago. So one thing you touched on. One thing

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<v Speaker 1>Chairman Pie talked about yesterday was was the notion that

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<v Speaker 1>that companies are doing have done very well, uh with

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<v Speaker 1>with what he called light touch regulation. And he talked

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<v Speaker 1>about the great success stories companies like Google and and Facebook, UM.

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<v Speaker 1>And there's a trade group called the Internet Association that

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<v Speaker 1>that that supports the existing rules in a posed what

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<v Speaker 1>what the Chairman did yesterday, and that group includes some

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<v Speaker 1>of these very h companies that are success stories, the Google's,

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<v Speaker 1>the Ebays, Microsoft, Netflix, um, which we make of their

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<v Speaker 1>their opposition, Well, they've also opened the door. Michael Beckerman,

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<v Speaker 1>their CEO, who I know very well, uh, they've left

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<v Speaker 1>the door open to having a dialogue, whether it's with

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<v Speaker 1>the SEC or with Congress. UM. Some of those edge

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<v Speaker 1>providers historically were very worried about Title two and coordinating

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<v Speaker 1>it off to just apply to network operators again, broadband

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<v Speaker 1>companies UM rather than other parts of the Internet ecosystems

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<v Speaker 1>such as themselves, UM and the FCC in put in

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<v Speaker 1>place this general conduct standard to kind of say we're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna do X, y and Z, but also we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to have authority over the general conduct of anything in

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<v Speaker 1>the Internet ecosphere. And I think that concerned a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of tech companies of all stripes UM. And if you

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<v Speaker 1>think about some of these companies, they have their own networks, right,

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<v Speaker 1>thousands of miles of fiber connecting routers and servers all

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<v Speaker 1>over the country, all over the world to pervade content

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<v Speaker 1>and apps and all the rest. So they themselves have

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<v Speaker 1>content and networks just the way a Comcast or a

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<v Speaker 1>T and T does at this point. So you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the markets, the consumers are demanding convergence, and the markets

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<v Speaker 1>are responding. Companies are responding, so they're all starting to

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<v Speaker 1>blur together to kind of look like the same animal.

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<v Speaker 1>In some cases, so you have to ask yourself, as

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<v Speaker 1>an eighty three year old law that was designed to

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<v Speaker 1>regulate telephones that were held in two hands, uh the

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<v Speaker 1>right mechanism or or should we find something that's more

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<v Speaker 1>modern and more flexible that can really protect consumers in

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<v Speaker 1>this very dynamic, sometimes ephemeral marketplace we're talking about. The

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<v Speaker 1>fccs plans to roll back its rules governing net neutrality.

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<v Speaker 1>Supporters said the rules prevented the creation of Internet fast

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<v Speaker 1>lanes available only to companies that could afford to pay

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<v Speaker 1>the price. Here's what then Chairman Tom Wheeler said when

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<v Speaker 1>the FCC approved its rules in Today is a red

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<v Speaker 1>letter day for Internet freedom for consumer words who want

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<v Speaker 1>to use the Internet on their terms, for innovators who

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<v Speaker 1>want to reach consumers without the control of gatekeepers, for

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<v Speaker 1>a future in which there are rules to protect the

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<v Speaker 1>Internet and its users. But yesterday, current chairman A Pie

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<v Speaker 1>said the rules were stifling investment and innovation. I think

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<v Speaker 1>what the SEC doesn't need is heavy handed regulations that

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<v Speaker 1>settled businesses with a lot of rules that simply disincentivize

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<v Speaker 1>them from building those networks. And that's going to be

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<v Speaker 1>the course we are charting henceforth, Our guest is former

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<v Speaker 1>SEC Commissioner Robert McDowell. He was a Republican appointed member

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<v Speaker 1>Republican member of the Commission, and he supports what Chairman

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<v Speaker 1>pie uh said yesterday. Rob you know, one one argument

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<v Speaker 1>that you've heard a little bit from Tom Wheeler and

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<v Speaker 1>hearing from other opponents of this move is that essentially

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<v Speaker 1>the Internet is being left to police itself and it's

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<v Speaker 1>a bit of a going to be a bit of

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<v Speaker 1>a wild West out there. And what you could have

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<v Speaker 1>is companies that favor either you know, uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>an entity they own or somebody who pays them money, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>in order to get faster internet service, using that you

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<v Speaker 1>know on the website or using that app or whatever.

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<v Speaker 1>What what's the argument, what's the counter to that? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>first of all, that's been said for about fifteen years, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>and it has never happened. There's there's little to no

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<v Speaker 1>evidence that that happened. And if there were evidence, if

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<v Speaker 1>it were happening, there were other laws on the books

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<v Speaker 1>that already existed that would have either prevented that or

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<v Speaker 1>punished the bad actors if they tried to do something

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<v Speaker 1>like that. Um. So you have a section to the

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<v Speaker 1>of the Clayton Act. You have Section five of the

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<v Speaker 1>Federal Trade Commission Act. And this is important because what

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<v Speaker 1>the FEC did in when it classified internet access as

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<v Speaker 1>a telecommunication service under the Communications Act four it took

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<v Speaker 1>away jurisdiction from the Federal Trade Commission, which polices every

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<v Speaker 1>other corner practically of the economy, including very complex high

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<v Speaker 1>tech corners of the economy, to prevent or punish anti

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<v Speaker 1>competitive conduct by market players. Um so you took a

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<v Speaker 1>cop off the beat actually with the title to classification,

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<v Speaker 1>and you brought in about a thousand requirements um of

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<v Speaker 1>Title two of that Act, which created all these questions

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<v Speaker 1>and all this uncertainty that Chairman Pie is speaking about

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<v Speaker 1>right there. So the notion that somehow companies are going

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to broadband companies are gonna be able

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<v Speaker 1>to discriminate in an anti competitive way against other market

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<v Speaker 1>players or harm consumers isn't true because there are other

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<v Speaker 1>laws that would exist but for this title too. But

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<v Speaker 1>isn't it the case that, I mean, any trust laws

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<v Speaker 1>tend to look backwards at conduct that are already happened.

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<v Speaker 1>Isn't it better to have rules that look forward, especially

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<v Speaker 1>given how quickly the tech industry works. You know, by

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<v Speaker 1>the time you know the antitrust case is brought against Microsoft,

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<v Speaker 1>the industry has has changed dramatically before you get to

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<v Speaker 1>a final judgment. In a case like that, it wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>be better to have rules that we know, know what's

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<v Speaker 1>what is? Uh, you know that they sort of govern

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<v Speaker 1>what companies do before they do it. Well, Actually, when

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<v Speaker 1>you have a fast paced, quickly changing marketplace, UM, it

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<v Speaker 1>is that enforcement that seems to work better rather than

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<v Speaker 1>regulators trying to guess where the market is headed. And

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<v Speaker 1>in part that's what was happening here. Uh. Chairman Pie

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<v Speaker 1>would argue, UM and others. So, uh, you have the

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<v Speaker 1>Department Justice, any trust division and the Federal Trade Commission

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<v Speaker 1>able to police those high tech areas in a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of complex areas, whether it's privacy or any trust or

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<v Speaker 1>consumer protection, etcetera. UM. And if you look actually the

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<v Speaker 1>speeches and the writings of Acting Federal Trade Commission Chairman

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<v Speaker 1>Marine Olhausen, she talks extensively about the issue you just

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<v Speaker 1>raised to say, Look, what you need are flexible rules

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<v Speaker 1>that punish market actors and create dist incentives. And really

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<v Speaker 1>this can be proven out by looking at market behavior

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<v Speaker 1>leading up to the vote on that neutrality that was

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<v Speaker 1>largely struck down by a court uh and order. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, let's look at the marketplace. Until then, it

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<v Speaker 1>was doing wonderfully, beautifully well, and it still is by

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<v Speaker 1>the way overall. But what Pie is trying to do

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<v Speaker 1>is to remove the uncertainty and try to find something

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<v Speaker 1>that's more modern and more flexible so that every aspect

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<v Speaker 1>of the inner ecosphere can thrive, and not just certain

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<v Speaker 1>parts of it. Rob Is it true that only Congress

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<v Speaker 1>can ensure that net neutrality doesn't swing like a pendulum

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<v Speaker 1>with each administration? Yeah, you know what, And that's speaking personally.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's ultimately what should happen. Of course, it's

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<v Speaker 1>very hard to get anything through Congress right now, but

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<v Speaker 1>you're right, every four to eight years we could have

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<v Speaker 1>a new regulatory regime depending on who's elected president, who

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<v Speaker 1>the new chair is uh. And that creates more uncertainty

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<v Speaker 1>and more harm. And that's why I'm optimistic and hopeful.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe I'm more hopeful that I am optimistic that all

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<v Speaker 1>the parties could come together once they see where Chairman

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<v Speaker 1>Pie is going, and come to the table in Congress

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<v Speaker 1>to try to get something done. This was actually close

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<v Speaker 1>to happening in you had Chairman John Thune of the

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<v Speaker 1>Centem Commerce Committee and the ranking member Bill Nelson very

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<v Speaker 1>close to agreeing on some principles for legislation until it

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<v Speaker 1>looked like the FEC was just going to go ahead.

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<v Speaker 1>And there are a lot of pressure groups who are

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<v Speaker 1>pressured Center Nelson and some others to back off of legislation.

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<v Speaker 1>But you're absolutely right. I mean, I think all aspects

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<v Speaker 1>of the Internet eco sphere could could benefit from sitting

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<v Speaker 1>down with members of Congress and just saying, hey, this

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<v Speaker 1>is something that historically has been bipartisan. Keep in mind here,

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<v Speaker 1>I was the senior Republican sometimes the only Republican on

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<v Speaker 1>the FCC ardently defending Clinton Gored administration policy regarding the Internet.

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<v Speaker 1>The Clinton gord administration was very much opposed to Title two,

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<v Speaker 1>and that was the case through the first six years

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<v Speaker 1>of the Oban administration as well. Uh, and something change.

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<v Speaker 1>So so here we are, what if you give me

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<v Speaker 1>the fifteen second version of what you would like to

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<v Speaker 1>see replace the rules that are being scrapped. Well, you

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<v Speaker 1>want to make sure that there's not an opportunity for

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<v Speaker 1>blocking or the throttling of of internet access. Uh, the

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<v Speaker 1>anti competitive conduct that would favor some content over others. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>you want to make sure that it's free and open

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<v Speaker 1>and that consumer demand is not frustrated, that consumers continue

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<v Speaker 1>to gain happy. Okay, thank you so much to Rob McDowell,

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<v Speaker 1>former FEC commissioner or guests talking about the FCCS changes

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<v Speaker 1>on Internet broadband regulation. Coming up on Bloomberg Law, We're

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<v Speaker 1>going to talk about that two year prison sentence for

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<v Speaker 1>Jesse Litvack. He was convicted of lying to a customer

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<v Speaker 1>about bond prices. That's the case that has certainly gained

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<v Speaker 1>notice on Wall Street. That's coming up