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Speaker 1: Coming up on you need therapy.

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Speaker 2: It's not my job to tell you or lead you

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Speaker 2: to some conclusion about your faith or like save you

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Speaker 2: back into whatever religion you came from. My job is

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Speaker 2: to provide the space for you to ask these questions

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Speaker 2: without me inserting my judgment, because everybody else around you

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Speaker 2: is probably doing that, and so you need a space

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Speaker 2: to be able to just speak your questions and thoughts.

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Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 1: a liability, it's a real gift.

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Speaker 2: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point

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Speaker 2: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

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Speaker 1: If you can die before you die, then you can

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Speaker 1: really live. There's a wisdom at death's door.

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Speaker 2: I thought I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know

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Speaker 2: what to do because there was no internet.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything

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Speaker 3: is hard.

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Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first

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Speaker 1: and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting

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Speaker 1: you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become

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Speaker 1: more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the

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Speaker 1: world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy. Hi, guys,

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Speaker 1: and welcome back to another episode of You Need Therapy podcast.

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Speaker 1: My name is kat I am the host. And quick

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Speaker 1: reminder before we get into today's episode that although this

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Speaker 1: podcast is called You Need Therapy, and I'm a therapist

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Speaker 1: and I have another therapist here with me today, this

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Speaker 1: does not serve as a replacement or a substitute for

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Speaker 1: any actual mental health services. However, I always hope that

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Speaker 1: it can help whoever's listening to it at whatever place

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Speaker 1: in their own journey they're at right now or maybe

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Speaker 1: in the future, but it cannot take over what actual

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Speaker 1: therapy does because it's not therapy. So today I have

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Speaker 1: a returning, returning, returning guest and somebody who you just

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Speaker 1: heard from if you are a regular listener of the podcast.

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Speaker 1: And the inspiration from this for this episode actually came

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Speaker 1: from last week's couch Talks, So I have Julia back. Hi, Julia, Hello,

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Speaker 1: And if you are unfamiliar with who Julia is, she

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Speaker 1: is actually a therapist that works at Three Quarts Therapy

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Speaker 1: and she has been on here multiple times talking about

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Speaker 1: different things. Her first episode that she did with me

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Speaker 1: was about spiritual and religious trauma and then last week,

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Speaker 1: she came on couch Talks and helped me talk about

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Speaker 1: a question a listener had about her own journey through

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Speaker 1: her faith and the difficulties that she's had to manage

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Speaker 1: that as that has changed in transition with her family.

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Speaker 1: And I thought that it would be helpful to talk

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Speaker 1: about this term in this process called deconstruction, that has

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Speaker 1: been coming up a lot, I think in therapy spaces.

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Speaker 1: I think you hear a lot on social media. It

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Speaker 1: feels like a newer idea. And I don't know that

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Speaker 1: it's a newer idea, it's just it almost feels like

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Speaker 1: there's more of an invitation to express this or think

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Speaker 1: about this, or it's almost like it was this hidden

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Speaker 1: thing that we could always have access to, but we

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Speaker 1: didn't know it was a thing, and now we do.

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Speaker 1: And so I want to just talk about what it is,

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Speaker 1: what it means, what that process might look like, who's

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Speaker 1: at four and kind of bust through some myths that

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Speaker 1: there might be about it. And Julia is a really

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Speaker 1: good person to help move us through that conversation because

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Speaker 1: this is some of the stuff she has been able

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Speaker 1: to help her clients with. So I would like to

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Speaker 1: start with one is there anything other than like what

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Speaker 1: is deconstruction that you would start this conversation off with,

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Speaker 1: like any disclaimer, anything you would want listeners to know

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Speaker 1: before they let some of this information sink in.

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Speaker 2: I would say that there's no way to come into

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Speaker 2: this conversation without some of your own experience and background

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Speaker 2: with faith or religion kind of entering the picture. And

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Speaker 2: so I would say, let your experience come into it,

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Speaker 2: take care of yourself while we talk about this topic,

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Speaker 2: and I encourage just openness to a new idea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is something we'll get into more

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Speaker 1: of why. It can be something that somebody just like

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Speaker 1: very largely wants to push away and like plug their

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Speaker 1: ears for many reasons, and it also can be something

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Speaker 1: that somebody wants to like gobble up. And this episode,

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Speaker 1: I hope is for both of those people. I want

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Speaker 1: everybody to know that there's no like agenda, right Like,

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Speaker 1: we're just putting information out there. We're not telling anybody

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Speaker 1: what they need to do, who needs to do this,

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Speaker 1: What the right outcome of this process is. We are

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Speaker 1: just open up space for people to know that this

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Speaker 1: is a process that is available. And it almost feels

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Speaker 1: like the Enneagram, where you know when they say when

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Speaker 1: you have the most uncomfortable feelings, when you're reading about

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Speaker 1: one of the types that might be yours, it almost

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Speaker 1: feels like some of that, like oh, I need to

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Speaker 1: push this out of here, is that this is bringing

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Speaker 1: up things that maybe I may need to process or

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Speaker 1: it could be helpful that I don't want to be a.

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Speaker 2: Thing, which is what you've been talking about on podcasts

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Speaker 2: a lot lately, is how to stay with a discomfort.

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Speaker 2: So here is an opportunity discomfort comes up.

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Speaker 1: So let's just start with basics here. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: us for somebody who's like, I've never heard that word,

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Speaker 1: or somebody who's like I feel like I hear that

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Speaker 1: a lot and don't really understand what is it? Like,

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Speaker 1: how would you describe what the process of deconstruction is

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Speaker 1: in general? And then how does that pertain to religion

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Speaker 1: and faith, because that's what we're going to kind of

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Speaker 1: like focus on today.

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Speaker 2: Well, you already just kind of said it there. It's

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Speaker 2: a process. Deconstruction is always processed, regardless of whether it's faith, politics,

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Speaker 2: and idea.

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Speaker 1: Think about like.

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Speaker 2: What we used to do in English class, you know,

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Speaker 2: like the teacher would bring in a paragraph or an excerpt,

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Speaker 2: and you'd sit and you'd deconstruct it. You talk about

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Speaker 2: break it down, what's happening, what's this idea? What are

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Speaker 2: we getting from this?

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Speaker 1: What do we think about that?

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Speaker 2: What do we think about this? How does it impact Xyza?

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Speaker 2: This shows up a lot in faith because it's that

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Speaker 2: process of taking apart beliefs revolving around faith practices, ideas

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Speaker 2: and kind of examining them. Where did this come from?

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Speaker 2: Where did I learn this? Is this still useful to me?

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Speaker 2: Do I still believe this? How is this impacting me?

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Speaker 2: And so I think emphasizing that it's a process and

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Speaker 2: not an outcome is a big deal because the word

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Speaker 2: deconstruction can bring up a lot of emotions, like you said,

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Speaker 2: and I think for a lot of people there might

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Speaker 2: be this idea, especially people who are very constructed in

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Speaker 2: their faith, very still kind of holding to beliefs they've

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Speaker 2: grown up with for a long time or held for

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Speaker 2: a long time. Oh, deconstruction like that sounds very dangerous,

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Speaker 2: and they might be thinking of deconversion, which is its

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Speaker 2: own thing, its own outcome, where you completely leave a

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Speaker 2: faith identity or faith community. But deconstruction is all of

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Speaker 2: that gray space in between.

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Speaker 1: Two things that you just said I really like. I

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Speaker 1: want to highlight. One is where you said you're asking questions.

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Speaker 1: One of them was is this still useful to me?

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Speaker 1: I think that is a really cool question to ask

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Speaker 1: in so many spaces, specifically within this, because that is

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Speaker 1: giving us the message this might have been useful at

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Speaker 1: some point, This doesn't mean this is like all bad

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Speaker 1: and I love having that both and there was this useful?

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Speaker 1: Is it still useful? If it's not, then maybe I

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Speaker 1: get to do something about that. And the other part

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Speaker 1: I want to highlight that I felt was super important

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Speaker 1: with what you just said was where you're talking about

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Speaker 1: You said the word deconstruction. You said the word constructed,

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Speaker 1: and then you said deconversion. And I think something that

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Speaker 1: might bring up a lot of fear or anxiety or

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Speaker 1: like pit in my stomach is that if I'm deconstructing something,

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Speaker 1: that means that I have this space where something is

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Speaker 1: not constructed, and what do I do in that space?

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Speaker 1: Specifically when it comes to religion and faith. A lot

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Speaker 1: of what I've known and experienced religion and faith to

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Speaker 1: do is it helps hold a lot of stuff together

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Speaker 1: for us it gives us meaning, it gives us hope,

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Speaker 1: it gives us answers to a lot of things. It

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Speaker 1: helps us understand certain things. And if I deconstruct that,

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Speaker 1: then what happens to all of that? Like, wh where's

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Speaker 1: my safety net? And I am highlighting that because it's

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Speaker 1: a process, you said, and deconstructing something doesn't mean you

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Speaker 1: leave it all the pieces on the floor. Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 1: there is a process where the pieces might be on

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Speaker 1: the floor, but there's also this beautiful space where you

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Speaker 1: actually get to build it back up in a way

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Speaker 1: that makes more sense and is more useful to you maybe. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I think that space between might be one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons where like I don't want to go there

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Speaker 1: because the waiting period yeah yeahs and I already had

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Speaker 1: this thing built for me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's making me think of something as you're

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Speaker 2: seeing all this, And I'm curious to hear your thoughts

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Speaker 2: on this, because I know you grew up in Nashville

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Speaker 2: or Tennessee. So I grew up in Chicago, but I

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Speaker 2: still think that being a part of like a Christian

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Speaker 2: community growing up, and maybe it's just part of the

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Speaker 2: culture of where I grew up. It was a more

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Speaker 2: affluent neighborhood, and the idea of having your shit together

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Speaker 2: was big, Like you don't look messy, especially if you're

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Speaker 2: a Christian. I mean, there's grace, there's the idea of grace,

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Speaker 2: but like if you are pulling things apart on the floor,

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Speaker 2: like using that metaphor making a mess of your ideas,

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Speaker 2: and what ground are you standing on? Like, oh, that

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Speaker 2: sounds really messy. That's not like the mode we're meant

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Speaker 2: to So the cultural message was and that's how we're

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Speaker 2: supposed to appear, and I know in the Bible Belt

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Speaker 2: there's like maybe some of that influence too, like you

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Speaker 2: should have it together, especially if you're a Christian.

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Speaker 1: I just want every listening to know I really would

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Speaker 1: love to have this episode be like totally non biased,

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Speaker 1: but like, obviously I'm going to be pulling a lot

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Speaker 1: of my own experiences into this, whether I talk about

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Speaker 1: them directly or not. I just want to put that

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Speaker 1: out there that there is some bias in what I'm saying,

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Speaker 1: but what I kind of am hearing that I resonate

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Speaker 1: with in that is not so much like and it

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Speaker 1: is part of it, but not so much. The language

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Speaker 1: isn't you need to have it all together. It's well,

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Speaker 1: if you are pulling that apart and you're asking questions

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Speaker 1: and you are getting messy, you're not a good Christian.

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Speaker 1: And if you're not a good Christian, then one you're

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Speaker 1: going to Hell. But like a lot of stuff, and

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Speaker 1: that is more I think some hesitation from where I'm standing.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if that is like a regional thing,

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Speaker 1: if that's so much or like just my experience that

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't want anybody to think I'm like stumbling. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're working. Yeah, funny, we were before we start recording,

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Speaker 1: we were talking about this. I don't know what brought

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Speaker 1: it up, but we were looking for this phrase that

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Speaker 1: people use when people like, you know, like veer off

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Speaker 1: the beaten pass, stray.

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Speaker 2: I kept saying stray, and I was like.

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Speaker 1: I know what you're talking about, but I don't know

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Speaker 1: what it is either. And that just like came to

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Speaker 1: me like they're stumbling in their faith.

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, that I'm just like having so much compassion

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Speaker 2: come up for that word, Like, Okay, think about stumbling though,

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Speaker 2: Like who wants to stumble? It's uncomfortable, Yeah, but sometimes

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Speaker 2: we have to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and like, I agree with that, and it sounds

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Speaker 1: it's the like language is a little different in my

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Speaker 1: head how I interpret it. But that goes against survival, right,

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Speaker 1: we want to be connected and we want people to

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Speaker 1: like us. We want to fit in, we want to

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Speaker 1: be okay, and so this idea goes against our deep

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Speaker 1: survival roots of well, if you stumble and you veer

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Speaker 1: or you stray, something bad is gonna I don't know what.

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Speaker 1: Something bad's gonna happen. Yeah, when I would highlight this

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Speaker 1: can feel icky and uncomfortable and the outcome is unknown,

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Speaker 1: it can be a very wonderful outcome. Yes, okay, So

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Speaker 1: that's what deconstruction is in a non nut shell not shell.

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Speaker 1: Why would somebody want to deconstruct their faith.

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Speaker 2: I think that somebody would want to deconstruct their faith

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Speaker 2: because something is no longer worked. So we were talking

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Speaker 2: about like the house analogy before this, where if if

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Speaker 2: your set of beliefs, if your faith is like a house,

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Speaker 2: and over time the house gets old and doesn't age

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Speaker 2: so well, and there are parts of it that need

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Speaker 2: to be kind of pulled apart and cared for. I'm

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Speaker 2: knowing this very well because we have a very old house.

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about all the parts in our house that need,

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Speaker 2: you know, kind of to be tended to and cared for.

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Speaker 2: So you're taking it apart and looking at it and

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Speaker 2: thinking about, Okay, what do I need to do here?

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Speaker 2: What I need to do with this? It gets brought

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Speaker 2: to your attention because something might not be working so

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Speaker 2: well anymore. Some belief could come up and it's like, well,

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Speaker 2: this is bumping up against my life experience right now, or.

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Speaker 1: Sorry I'm interrupting you, but I really liked that the

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Speaker 1: house metaphor and even just thinking about staying in that

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Speaker 1: where like I don't know much about like cable and

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Speaker 1: how it works, but like this satellite dish that we

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Speaker 1: got so we could watch X, Y and Z show

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Speaker 1: isn't getting good reception anymore. Do I need to fix

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Speaker 1: this thing? Do I need to get rid of the

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Speaker 1: satellite and get Google Fiber? Is Google Fiber even available?

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Speaker 1: Or do I need to I don't know, get Infinity

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Speaker 1: or whatever it is. Would that be helpful? Is that

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Speaker 1: going to offer me the TV shows that I want?

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Speaker 1: Or like, do I want to watch TV AM? I

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Speaker 1: paying for this satellite thing and like it's not working

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Speaker 1: one And also like I don't really like TV. I'll

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Speaker 1: just get a TV like a TV and watch DVDs

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Speaker 1: or something like that. Like you're getting to look at

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Speaker 1: these things that have been helpful in the past, and

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Speaker 1: you might have used in the past, but with the

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Speaker 1: way your life is now, they might not be necessary

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Speaker 1: or you just need like something that's updated. Yes, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love that. Okay, there might be a better like

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Speaker 1: thing that works better with the metaphor. But I don't

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Speaker 1: know why a satellite dish came to mind.

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Speaker 2: No, I love that that was well said, because I

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Speaker 2: feel like there has to be a reason for us

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Speaker 2: to make a change. I think we can be very

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Speaker 2: status quo creatures. Something doesn't trigger us to do something

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Speaker 2: differently unless okay, this is not working well for me anymore.

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Speaker 2: I think about a lot about like life events triggering

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Speaker 2: a stage of deconstruction. You get married, or you move

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Speaker 2: out of your house, you get a divorce, Like something

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Speaker 2: has happened. It's causing me to question or feel like

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Speaker 2: maybe some questions start to come up about my beliefs.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I don't even want to, but these questions are

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Speaker 2: just coming up, and what do I do with them?

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm curious, like the wanting to deconstruct. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure I can imagine there are some people who are like,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I can't I can't wait to have

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Speaker 2: more space to think about this, and maybe than there

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Speaker 2: are other people who are also like, oh, these thoughts

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Speaker 2: are starting to come up, and I'm really afraid of them.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think that there are people that probably are

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Speaker 1: like chomping at the bits to do this. This is

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Speaker 1: gonna be awesome. And there are some people that are like,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to do this, but it feels necessary. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And there can be so many different reasons and experiences

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Speaker 1: that that might happen. But I'm almost thinking of there

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Speaker 1: are some people that grow up in an organization or

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Speaker 1: faith or religion who things always kind of felt like

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Speaker 1: I don't know if this fits, or like I can't

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Speaker 1: really grasp that. However, they might have willed themselves into

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Speaker 1: it because it offered them safety or connection. Like I

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Speaker 1: have to adhere to this stuff and try to assimilate

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Speaker 1: to it because it is what is keeping me in

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Speaker 1: connection and helping me survive this environment I'm in as

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Speaker 1: a kid, as a teenager, as a young adult who

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Speaker 1: can't maybe isn't the place where I can sustain myself

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Speaker 1: of my own And so then they get some independence

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Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, finally I can like kind of

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Speaker 1: shed some of that and figure out what I want

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Speaker 1: to take and really dig into that. And that's the

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Speaker 1: kind of person who's like, I can't wait to do

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Speaker 1: this now. There's also probably gonna be parts that are

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Speaker 1: not so easy. But then there's the other. And again

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Speaker 1: I'm giving two examples. This can happen in so many

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Speaker 1: different ways. But then I'm seeing this other person who

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Speaker 1: they were so immersed in this we'll say faith religion,

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Speaker 1: and they loved it, and they didn't have those feelings

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Speaker 1: of like, they didn't have that gut reaction of like

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Speaker 1: I don't know if this fits. It very much fit

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Speaker 1: and that can be for multiple reasons. And then they

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Speaker 1: start to develop different parts of themselves as they grow

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Speaker 1: an age. An easy way to explain this is maybe

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Speaker 1: you grew up in a denomination of Christianity that was complementarian,

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Speaker 1: that kind of separates certain roles for women and certain

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Speaker 1: certain roles for men, and that was fine, and that

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Speaker 1: worked for you, and it was helpful think anything of it,

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Speaker 1: and then you grow up and you move through and

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Speaker 1: you start to have this itch to work or experience

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Speaker 1: or do or be in a different role that is

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Speaker 1: not in your gender's assigned job description. So you might

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Speaker 1: be like, I don't know if this is working for

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Speaker 1: me anymore. There's I'm now feeling this dissonance and I

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Speaker 1: want to explore that to see if this is something

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Speaker 1: that still fits for me, or if there's another way

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Speaker 1: for me to organize my beliefs and views about the

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Speaker 1: roles that we play within a faith context. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean you're going to throw away your faith completely. You might,

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Speaker 1: but I think there can be some shame around it

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Speaker 1: where there are some people that are that very like,

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Speaker 1: why never really bought into this? But I had to

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Speaker 1: do it to survive. And then this other person was like, well,

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Speaker 1: why didn't I see the signs? How could I have

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Speaker 1: been that person? It's like, well, it doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: you necessarily did anything wrong or bad. It's okay that

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Speaker 1: something worked for you. We're not saying this anything's bad.

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Speaker 1: We're just maybe giving you the opportunity to say that

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Speaker 1: might not fit for me anymore, and I don't have

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Speaker 1: to keep sitting in that yes now you also mentioned,

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Speaker 1: and I want to touch on this, that it's a

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Speaker 1: process and there are people that have this connotation this

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Speaker 1: is getting us sec into like the what if some

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Speaker 1: people think it is versus what it is. There are

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Speaker 1: some connotations that there is going to be this already

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Speaker 1: decided outcome. So can you talk and speak on that.

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Speaker 2: I love the example you just walked through where it's like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: this one part of my belief system that I've held onto,

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Speaker 2: where men have certain roles and women have certain rules,

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Speaker 2: is no longer fitting for me. So now I need

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Speaker 2: to kind of pull that out, look at it, examine it.

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Speaker 2: How do I need to adjust it? What voices do

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Speaker 2: I need to kind of pull into the mix or

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Speaker 2: let go of in this and none of that. Example,

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Speaker 2: did I hear you say I'm leaving God behind or

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Speaker 2: like I'm abandoning my church community. It could be some

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Speaker 2: of that, like you might need to adjust where you're

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Speaker 2: going to church or things like that. That could happen,

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Speaker 2: But it's just I think there's a lot of like

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Speaker 2: jumping to conclusions or maybe catastrophizing. Yeah, from either internally,

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Speaker 2: I think like, oh my gosh, I'm going to hell

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Speaker 2: now because I thought that, or are those around you

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Speaker 2: who maybe like our parents, like in that Cuchhocks we

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Speaker 2: talked about where oh gosh, like this feels threatening. I'm

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Speaker 2: afraid this person's gonna walk away from their faith and

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Speaker 2: I care about them and part of my faith might

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Speaker 2: be making sure they stay in their faith. So this

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Speaker 2: is all really threatening the system here. Yeah, but that again,

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Speaker 2: it could be like total jumping to a conclusion that's

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Speaker 2: not even again, it's the process, it's not the outcome yet.

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Speaker 1: What is catastrophizing? I love this word.

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Speaker 2: I love like you're going I use it like every week.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it like a cognitive what is it? Kindative distortion? Yes,

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Speaker 2: pulling from the depths of grad school there, but it's

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Speaker 2: jumping straight into like everything's wrong, sound the alarms, the

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Speaker 2: worst case scenarios, case like the worst.

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Speaker 1: Times ten thousand. It's like, wait a second, Yes, you

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Speaker 1: stub your toe. You do not have to get total

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Speaker 1: femur reconstructive surgery. Yes, that is a weird example, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love that word. But I think that is probably

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Speaker 1: a good explanation of what can happen when somebody hears this,

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Speaker 1: or somebody hears about somebody else doing it, or somebody

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Speaker 1: is opening up the invitation for themselves to do It's like,

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Speaker 1: oh no, like everything's going to have to be burned,

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Speaker 1: or that person is going to you know, start doing

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Speaker 1: all of these things and they're gonna have to go

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Speaker 1: to rehab because they're going to become a drug addict

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Speaker 1: and all this stuff. And it's like, wait, a secon out.

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Speaker 1: This person just wants to like see if maybe like

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Speaker 1: they want to like work in a different department of

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Speaker 1: their company, and are they allowed to work in that

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Speaker 1: department as whatever gender they are. Like, it's not that

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Speaker 1: they're leaving the company completely again, they might, but that's

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Speaker 1: the whole point. There's space for people to figure it out.

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Speaker 2: Yes, which is why I think going to a therapist

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Speaker 2: and having that conversation before starting with a therapist, which

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Speaker 2: this happens to me a lot. I don't know about you,

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Speaker 2: but if somebody reaches out and they have an idea

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Speaker 2: that they want to process, like faith stuff or their

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Speaker 2: religious background, they will ask are you religious? Or they'll

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Speaker 2: ask like some kind of question to figure out, Okay,

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Speaker 2: where am I oriented? And I always answer saying, part

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Speaker 2: of my not only like my ethics, as a therapist,

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Speaker 2: but also my personal belief is that it's not my

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Speaker 2: job to tell you or lead you to some conclusion

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Speaker 2: about your faith or like save you back into whatever

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Speaker 2: religion you came from. My job is to provide the

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Speaker 2: space for you to ask these questions without me inserting

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Speaker 2: my judgment, because everybody else around you is probably doing that,

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Speaker 2: and so you need a space to be able to

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Speaker 2: just speak your questions and thoughts. You know.

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Speaker 1: That's making me think of, oh, this was so long ago,

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Speaker 1: but also feels like yesterday when I got really hot

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Speaker 1: on this Instagram influencer person I actually literally scheduled a

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Speaker 1: therapy session about this because it brought up so much

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Speaker 1: for me personally. But this therapy influencer, and if you've

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Speaker 1: been a part of this community for a while, this

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Speaker 1: might ring some bells had posted this video. Actually a

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Speaker 1: listener sent it to me and she's like, I'm curious

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Speaker 1: your thoughts, and I was like, oh, girl, going to

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Speaker 1: therapy BRB. Then I'll let you know. But it was

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Speaker 1: basically it was about politics, But it basically was telling

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Speaker 1: people who are going to therapy. Therapy goers, you have

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Speaker 1: the right to ask your therapist what their beliefs are

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Speaker 1: and speaking more politically and what they're like, how they're

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Speaker 1: voting all that stuff, and if they will not tell you,

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Speaker 1: you better run. And he was saying like, you have

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00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: the right to feel safe, and you have the right

434
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: to be surrounded by people who agree with you, and

435
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: da da da da dadah all this stuff, and it

436
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 1: brought so much up from me because I was like,

437
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: wait a second, I'm not telling people that, Like, maybe

438
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: there are some people that you will share that with,

439
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: and there are people that naturally that's gonna come out

440
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: in some of the work that you do based on

441
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: the type of self disclosure and the report you have

442
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 1: with that client. And it is not our job to

443
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,880
Speaker 1: create a space where you have like a yes man

444
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: around you. That's not helpful, especially in these spaces of deconstruction.

445
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 1: I will say I wouldn't like go to the counseling

446
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: pastor at the church that you're trying to work through,

447
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: because I think there's some bias there that and I

448
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 1: think it's fair that sometimes there needs to be a

449
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: space where you name that bias, just kind of like

450
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: how I did in the beginning of this episode, because

451
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: that can create safety in itself. But you don't have

452
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: to be working with somebody who agrees, who's on the

453
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 1: same page as you, who lives your life the same

454
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 1: way as you, because that's maybe what you need in

455
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: friends and in your community. Sure, sometimes you want to

456
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 1: have that around you. That makes sense, but your therapist

457
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: is not necessarily here to put their views on you

458
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 1: or change your views into theirs, give their experience, and

459
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: then say well that's what you should do, because that's

460
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: the whole thing you're unraveling. Yeah, is this is what

461
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: I've been taught. I want to see if I can

462
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 1: put the pieces together myself, and we help you look

463
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: at the pieces and see which ones fit for you.

464
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: I might not agree with it, Yes, that's huge, And

465
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: I think that's also like maybe part of the reason

466
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 1: why that video bothered me so much is often when

467
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 1: I don't agree with it, it's more powerful. Yes, when it's

468
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: like you don't need my permission, You do not need

469
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: my permission, I do not care. That thing still triggers me. Honestly,

470
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: I felt triggered.

471
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 2: I felt triggered just you talking about it and being like,

472
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 2: oh my god, it's kat about to say, like I

473
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 2: need to be telling my clients my political views, no, because.

474
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, no. And I think that's also that

475
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: sucks because I as a as a therapist who goes

476
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: to therapy, I so badly want a space where I

477
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: don't know what you were thinking, because that's your own

478
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: stuff to work with. Now, there are some times where

479
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: I do want a bit of that, but it's not

480
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 1: all the time. And again, I think that's the clinical judgment.

481
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: I think we need as clinicians to be able to

482
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: have is know when that is appropriate to share it

483
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: and when it isn't, when that would be hurtful, when

484
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: it would be helpful, when it would like not matter.

485
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: So what's the point we are trained to be able

486
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: to look at that based on a client. Not all

487
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: clients are the saying, not all relationships are the same

488
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 1: within therapy, and I think that's the underpinning of it.

489
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 1: I'm like, you're taking away the ability for us to

490
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: use clinical judgment. And also, I don't want to do

491
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 1: what everybody else has done for this person. Yeah, and

492
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: there's work to be done around the unknown. What's it

493
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 1: like for me to sit here and not know what

494
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: you think? Yeah, especially if I'm somebody who's a people

495
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 1: pleaser based on some of this stuff, right.

496
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 2: Can I experience a safe relationship knowing that you might disagree? Yeah,

497
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 2: I don't need your agreement in order to feel safe

498
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: with you.

499
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: I don't need your agreement in order for it to

500
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: feel right for me. Yes, Oh that's important.

501
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 2: I feel like that you just like said that and

502
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 2: it spoke to so much my people pleaser right there.

503
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I struggle with that too, So maybe that's

504
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: probably why that brought up in me. And I think

505
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: also there was I have to admit this. There also

506
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 1: is some fear that I would have clients come in

507
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 1: here and be like, you have to tell me who

508
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: you voted for, And I'm like, well, I don't want to, yes,

509
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: creating chaos for me within these relationships, which that has

510
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: never happened. I have never had a client ask me that.

511
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 2: Who you voted for? Yeah, I don't think I have either.

512
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: I have had clients ask me if I'm Christian though.

513
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well yes, and I sometimes you might answer it,

514
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: and sometimes you might ask a question back. There's so

515
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: many ways to respect. My point is like, there's so

516
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: many ways to respond to that. And I do agree,

517
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: and I do understand why somebody would want to ask that. Totally.

518
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: I'm not like shaming the person for asking that at all.

519
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: I think that it makes sense that that would be

520
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: something you would be curious of because of what we

521
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: just said, of just the people pleaser of the like

522
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: maybe there wasn't safety because of X, Y and Z or.

523
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: I also had an experience with a therapist that I

524
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: went to process something that I was very nervous to

525
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: process because of the judgment If I was honest about this,

526
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: what's the judgment gonna be? And I left feeling terrible

527
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: because I could tell very clearly that I was being

528
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: told what was right and wrong versus me being able

529
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: to kind of like sift through it myself and sit

530
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: with some of the discomfort. And I wasn't able to

531
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: be honest. Yeah, So I get why I might be

532
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: curious the next time I go to process that thing

533
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: what somebody believes, because I wouldn't want that to happen

534
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: again because then I'm gonna stop talking about it. Yeah,

535
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna want to deconstruct this because there's no

536
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: space for me to do it. Yeah. So I totally

537
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: get the question, and I'm not even saying don't ask it,

538
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: totally ask it, because even if your therapist does not answer,

539
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: there's processing to be done around that question and what

540
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: it's like for that question to be in the room.

541
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's straw?

542
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: You do that question?

543
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: What do you need from that?

544
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: So I hope that didn't come off the wrong way.

545
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: Like ask the question. You can ask me who I

546
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: voted for. I will say I probably will not tell

547
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: you yes, but I still will tell well, I still

548
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: I might not tell people. I mean, I think people

549
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: know a little bit of where I lean, at least

550
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: based religiously, but there's so much nuance and that as well.

551
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: But I would invite somebody even to ask me who

552
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: I voted for. I would invite somebody to ask me

553
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: whatever question you want to ask. I might not answer it.

554
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: I might I might not answer it, And I don't

555
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: think that's always the point is to get the answer.

556
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: Can you talk about and we've kind of touched on

557
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: some of them, but some of the most prominent struggles

558
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 1: of this deconstruction process we're going to get to, like

559
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: and I think we've already talked of that too, like

560
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: the beauty and the gifts of it. But what are

561
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: some of the struggles that I think are just important

562
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,479
Speaker 1: to name so people don't feel like I don't know,

563
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: like well I'm doing it wrong or I didn't expect this.

564
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: These are things that kind of come with the territory

565
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: of this process.

566
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: So I'll speak to what I've seen, both personally and professionally,

567
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: what clients have talked about, and also like things. So

568
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 2: many great books out there about deconstructing, but I think

569
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: some of the big ones are a huge identity shift.

570
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: If part of your.

571
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 2: Identity is tethered to a faith community, even just being

572
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 2: identifying as like a Christian or xyz, and then suddenly

573
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 2: you're questioning parts of that, that means you're questioning parts

574
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 2: of your identity, and that is daunting and scary.

575
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: You know what I just thought of. I'm gonna say

576
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: this quickly because I don't want to take you off

577
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: course here. It seems like there's this identity crisis. It's

578
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: just this like little scary bad ash. Yeah, when like

579
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: identity shift can be so wonderful. Yes, it's different and

580
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: it's new, and it's change, and there's grief and there's

581
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: struggle in any kind of change because there's a loss. Yeah,

582
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: that but having an identity shift. Shifting parts of your

583
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: identity is not this like, oh, you got to go

584
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: to the emergency room, something bad is happening. Yes, But

585
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: I think our culture looks at like, oh, they're going

586
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:31,959
Speaker 1: through an identity crisis. They don't know who they are,

587
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, maybe, actually, I'm discovering more of

588
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: who I am. Yes, Oh my gosh.

589
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 2: It's like when I told Josie yesterday that I used

590
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: to wear cowgirl boots every day in high school and

591
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 2: I no longer do that. That was a big identity

592
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 2: shift for me. Yeah, you have I know in my

593
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 2: Chicago high school I were cowgirl boots every day and

594
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: that was a big part of my identity.

595
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: Did you ride horses?

596
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: I want to know?

597
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: And that was laughing at me because Josie rides horses.

598
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: And she actually needs cowgirl boots, but no, did I

599
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: ride horses in Chicago? Once I was like what while

600
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: taking the train.

601
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: It feels weird. I didn't know that they had that,

602
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: so I let that part of me go. Yeah, but

603
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: I thought like negative.

604
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 2: No, not in any shame.

605
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: It was just like, goes back to it worked for you,

606
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: it worked for me. I loved it.

607
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 2: I went to Bootbarn, I did that whole thing, and

608
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 2: and then I got to Bama and was like, I'm changing,

609
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: and they're all, this is working for me. This isn't

610
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 2: working for me anymore. These are kind of uncomfortable, and

611
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 2: I'm gonna put them in a tuper wearebox and let

612
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 2: them go. Okay, that's a very simple version of what

613
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 2: we're talking about.

614
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: But I think that speaks to what I'm saying.

615
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 2: But yes, identities change often, and this is also a

616
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 2: separate conversation then the spiritual abuse religious trauma conversation, because

617
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 2: if there's abuse or trauma involved in a church experience

618
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: or religious experience, like that is so much more complex

619
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 2: than just being like I think that I'm kind of

620
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: changing and having I done shift like that is separate.

621
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: So wanting to name that.

622
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there can be deconstruction in that for sure,

623
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: one hundred percent. And you're right when we get into

624
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: like the more like almost brainwashing kind of you're not

625
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: allowed to ask questions territory, that is more complex and

626
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: there's more nuanced to it, and we don't want to

627
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: oversimplify that totally. But something you also said earlier that

628
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: I want you to talk about is the loneliness that

629
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: you might experience going through this.

630
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 2: I think going back to like who can I talk to?

631
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 2: And why it would be so helpful to have a therapist,

632
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 2: Because if your main people in your life are from

633
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 2: your small group, or your church, or your faith community,

634
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: or even just you, I mean, I think it's natural

635
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 2: for us to congregate around people who share similar values

636
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 2: and beliefs. So a lot of the people around you

637
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 2: could still identify as very constructed in their faith. And

638
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: if again you're bringing some of these questions up with them,

639
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 2: and maybe there's defensiveness or judgment, any of the very

640
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 2: natural human responses we might have to something like this,

641
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 2: that could feel threatening. It could start to feel lonely,

642
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 2: like who can I talk to in this? Am I

643
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 2: the only one going through this? Even like looking at

644
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 2: maybe people who have deconstructed and have reached whatever outcome

645
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 2: they want to, which could be deconversion or could be

646
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 2: joining a totally different denomination that feels really different than yours,

647
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 2: like that can be lonely because you might feel so

648
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 2: far away from that or different from that.

649
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: Still, I hear like, are people going to understand me?

650
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: Am I going to be misunderstood. Yeah, am I going

651
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: to want to be included, but also like not want

652
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: to be included in that is some weird dissonance of

653
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: like I still want to be a part of this confusion.

654
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: I think confusion is a big one. And it goes

655
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 1: back to like the discomforts being confused and not knowing

656
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: is really uncomfortable. And that's part of this process too,

657
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: is like there might be a lot of I don't knows, Yeah,

658
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: for a while. This doesn't have to be like a

659
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: three session therapy process and then you're done and something

660
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: else I know pops up. Is a lot of shame. Yes,

661
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: when you do identify things that you feel so starkly

662
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 1: different from and you look at these past versions of yourself,

663
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: like the version of you that were cowgirl boots, yes,

664
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: Like it's we all do that, Like we look back

665
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: on pictures of ourselves and we're like, oh my god, gross,

666
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 1: I can't believe I wore that, Like yes, layering fifteen

667
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: tank tops, like all the beangals or the bubble necklace

668
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: like all these like gouch, the bangs for sure. Yeah,

669
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: yeah that you can look at me like what was

670
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: I thinking? And again it goes back to that outfit

671
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 1: might have been cool back then. I remember feeling really

672
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 1: cute in that outfit.

673
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: That outfit worked for me.

674
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, what I wear that today?

675
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: No?

676
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's okay for me to say that. It

677
00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: doesn't mean have to like throw the baby out with

678
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: the bath water kind of that, like this all was

679
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: bad and I was bad and how could I it?

680
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: Just as things are different now and I'm allowed to

681
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: notice that. Yes, So when those feelings pop up about

682
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: and which I think keeps people from a lot of

683
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: times acknowledging the shifts, because if I acknowledge the shift,

684
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: then I also have to acknowledge that I no longer

685
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: agree with that version of me. Yeah, that can be

686
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: really hard to sit with of like why can't if

687
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: I did that or I said that or I thought

688
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: that about that person.

689
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: I feel like deconstruction work is a lot of grief work.

690
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, grieving being a part of a faith community

691
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 2: and feeling like I don't really belong in this anymore,

692
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: or grieving an old part of me, my old identity,

693
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 2: or grieving that I'm like feel like I'm kind of

694
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: losing my faith and maybe I don't really want to,

695
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,240
Speaker 2: but like I can't not think about this question. Yeah,

696
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: there's a lot of grief in it, and I don't

697
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 2: think there's always space to honor that grief because it's

698
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 2: really it's honestly can be really sad to experience.

699
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: The word that just popped up for me was abandonment,

700
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 1: Like when you said I can't not it's like which

701
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: we I think we get hit with this question a

702
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: lot in different ways of Do I abandon myself here? Yes?

703
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: Do I abandon this community? Do I abandon this thought?

704
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: Do I bandon this belief? Like there's like that's the

705
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: loss this like I'm leaving this behind and we want

706
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: to avoid loss. We want to avoid all of that.

707
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: But I can't not like me avoiding doing it is

708
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: a loss somewhere. It is an abandoned of something. So

709
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: can I be really present and own what thing I

710
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: want to choose? It's me choosing to abandon this thing

711
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: still hard, yes, versus kind of just like allowing my

712
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: discomfort to choose for me.

713
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that was well said.

714
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: There's a part of me that's like and there's a

715
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: light at the end of the tunnel, But I think

716
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: that's a part of.

717
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 2: Me I'm feeling that too.

718
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like which it is. I think there's there's

719
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: so much goodness that comes from this, and I don't

720
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 1: want to send the message that's like this is icky

721
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: and hard and sticky and it's going to feel all

722
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 1: these things are going to come up forever cool not

723
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: doing that and yeah, all that stuff. I don't want

724
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,399
Speaker 1: to put a bow on this by saying that. And

725
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: the reason that we would encourage anybody to move through this,

726
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: if it's something that they are feeling led by themselves

727
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: to do, is because there can be so much goodness,

728
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: and there can be so much freedom, and there can

729
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: be confidence, and there can be so much agency, so

730
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: many good things that can come from it, and like

731
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 1: most good things, it's both.

732
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

733
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 2: I think one of the biggest gifts that can come

734
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 2: from going through the process of deconstruction is having empathy

735
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 2: for those who are asking questions. And that could be

736
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 2: this is pulling back from just the faith conversation, but

737
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 2: deconstructing any idea like just having gone through a process

738
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 2: like that, knowing the loneliness, knowing the shame that can

739
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 2: come up, knowing the confusion, we become less judgmental when

740
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 2: other people bring us their questions, and I think that's

741
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 2: something we all need. So that's that's a gift that

742
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 2: comes later. But if we all were embracing more openness

743
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 2: and curiosity, like you always say, curiosity over judgment, we

744
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 2: could just show up with so much more empathy for

745
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 2: people who are questioning anything.

746
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think about the things and I when I

747
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 1: say this, it's not just tied to faith or religion.

748
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: This is in general the shifts in my life and

749
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: the different versions of myself. While some of them I'm.

750
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 3: Like, oh, yikes, that is tough to look at, Like

751
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 3: the outfit that's tough to look at, it's also so

752
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 3: wonderful because of what you're saying is oh, I've been

753
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 3: in both the spaces. That means other people can be

754
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,240
Speaker 3: in those spaces too. Some of them are still wearing

755
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 3: the cowgirl boots. I love that, and some of them

756
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 3: really still like them, and they might like them forever.

757
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,439
Speaker 3: They also may go through a phase where they don't

758
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 3: want to wear them every day, and I know what

759
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 3: that's like. And they might go through a phase where

760
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 3: they want to put them in a bucket or a

761
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 3: tublewaar or whatever where we put them or whatever. It is,

762
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 3: and so I can again just look at people and

763
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 3: not write the whole story. I don't know where they

764
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 3: are in their story because I'm not always in the

765
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,959
Speaker 3: same place in my story. So kind of to close

766
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 3: this out, like most things, we can continue to process

767
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 3: this on here. What would be your encouragement to anybody

768
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 3: who is like, I want to know a little bit more,

769
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 3: whether that's I want to learn more about this idea,

770
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 3: or I want to know how to start this process

771
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:58,919
Speaker 3: for myself, or I started this process and I want

772
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 3: to like what are rec.

773
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 2: I would start reading and I would take that idea

774
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 2: with the knowing that every book you read, like Kat

775
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 2: said at the beginning of this, is gonna come with

776
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,439
Speaker 2: a bias because they're speaking from their own experience or

777
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 2: wherever they've landed. So that's why I would encourage to

778
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 2: read from a lot of different voices and come into

779
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 2: that with openness and curiosity for your own experience, Like

780
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 2: what's resonating?

781
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: What feels like? Oh?

782
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: What was that like that? What had just come up

783
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 2: in me? Or why does this resonate with me? Why

784
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 2: do I not want it to resonate with me? Like

785
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 2: anything like that provides space for you to reflect on it.

786
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 2: Some of the authors that I have found helpful, and

787
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 2: again this is being filtered through my own experience. But

788
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,720
Speaker 2: Richard Rohrer, he has a great book called The Wisdom Pattern,

789
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: which he kind of blows it down into the deconstruction

790
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 2: as a process of order, disorder, and reorder and goes

791
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 2: into kind of all the ideas around that. Sarah Bessie

792
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 2: and Rachel Health Evans are both female authors. You kind

793
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: of write about examining faith, leaving church, coming back to church.

794
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: I like that, like make sure that you are taking

795
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: in experiences that all look different, yeah, where it's not

796
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: everybody had the same outcome. Yeah, because there's not going

797
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: to be one outcome.

798
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

799
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: Because I don't know all of those people, but I

800
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 1: know Richard Wrard definitely didn't abandon.

801
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: I think he's a monk, isn't he He's a friar,

802
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 2: which is like, yeah, what is that something to do

803
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 2: with Episcopalian church? Oh, my gosh, I don't know either.

804
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: But she's pretty cool. Yeah.

805
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:37,439
Speaker 2: Brinnie Brown talks about him, and.

806
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: He's Two of my favorite of Rene's podcasts were with him,

807
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: and he has a really good nice way of balancing

808
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 1: this because I think one of the things that encourages

809
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: a lot of deconstruction is the dissonance between this very

810
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,320
Speaker 1: traditional the way we've always done things kind of faith

811
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: and this more modern, contemporary way of doing things, and

812
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: those things butt heads a lot, yes, and he finds

813
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: a way to appeal to both of those and not

814
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 1: essentially take one side or the other. And I think

815
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: that is so helpful when trying to process your own

816
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 1: not having somebody that might understand be of the same

817
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: type of faith of you. But also you know he

818
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: has that, but he's also not saying this is right,

819
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: and this is wrong, this is right, this is wrong,

820
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: this is right, this is wrong totally. I mean, there

821
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: might be some things that he's like, well, this is

822
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 1: right and this is wrong, But generally I've loved listening

823
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: to him because he often like encourages you to think

824
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: more than gives you answers. Totally. Yep, that's helpful kind

825
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: of what we were getting out with a therapist.

826
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my other big thing. Find a therapist, especially

827
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 2: if you feel like there are people who in your life,

828
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 2: like your friends, that it could be hard to bring

829
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 2: this to you, or you've tried already and it didn't

830
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 2: feel good for you. Find a therapist and don't be

831
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 2: afraid to ask them or bring it to them in

832
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 2: a console call, like this is what I'm dealing with with,

833
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: how do you approach faith or bringing integrating that into

834
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 2: the counseling room. You're allowed to know that and talk

835
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 2: about that beforehand.

836
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's I will say. I feel like I

837
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: keep wanting to make sure I didn't like say the

838
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: wrong thing. It's my own pleasing again coming to us

839
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: is you You do have the right to know if

840
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: somebody is like very like like a Christian counselor oh yeah,

841
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,359
Speaker 1: operates from a specific denomination, who brings in scripture, who

842
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: does this, who does that? If that's not what you're

843
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,359
Speaker 1: looking for, and that's what they do, like, oh yeah,

844
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: please know that and ask that. And that is if

845
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: the therapist is going to bring that in, that is

846
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:40,399
Speaker 1: their responsibility to share that with you, because you don't

847
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: want to be processing to sing on the next surprise

848
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: in I don't know romans Da da da da, and

849
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: you're like, okay, I don't want to this is hard. Yeah,

850
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 1: then I thought it was going to be I'm going

851
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 1: to leave totally. Thank you, so much for having this conversation.

852
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: I would be so interested in anybody's thoughts, feelings, opinions, questions.

853
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if any of you guys listening have

854
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,839
Speaker 1: moved through this process and would want to share some

855
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 1: of your insight and what it was like for you

856
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: that would be interesting to hear from. So anything that

857
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: you would want to share with me, like usual, but

858
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 1: specifically around this topic, you can send that to Catherine

859
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: at You Need Therapy podcast dot com. I would love that,

860
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: And if you want to follow us, you can follow

861
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:35,439
Speaker 1: Julia at at the Self Compassion counselor you got it,

862
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: and then you Need Therapy podcast and I am at

863
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: cat dot Defada and then our practices at Three Chords Therapy.

864
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: I hope this was thought provoking, helpful, maybe a little

865
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 1: on comfy at the same time, felt safe, and I

866
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 1: hope you guys have the day, the week, the deconstruction

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Speaker 1: that you need to have. I love that. Five