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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. President Trump says

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Speaker 1: he'll sign an executive order to stomp the separation of

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Speaker 1: children from parents who are caught illegally crossing the US

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Speaker 1: border with Mexico. We're going to be signing an executive order.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna also count on Congress, obviously, but we are

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Speaker 1: signing an executive order in a little while. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: keep families together. But we still have to maintain toughness

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Speaker 1: or our country will be over run. That's a reversal

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Speaker 1: of Trump's insistence that only Congress could end his policy

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Speaker 1: of separating families at the border. Joining me as David Beer,

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Speaker 1: an immigration policy analyst at the Cato Institute, David immigration

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Speaker 1: was key in Trump's rise to power, and it's central

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Speaker 1: to his image. So can he just back down from

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Speaker 1: the zero tolerance policy without losing credibility with his base? Look,

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Speaker 1: what's really losing him credibility with the American people on

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Speaker 1: this is that he has been saying for weeks, the

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Speaker 1: only reason I'm doing this is because the law requires

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Speaker 1: me to do this. I cannot back down from this.

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Speaker 1: This is the requirements of the law. I have to

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Speaker 1: separate these families, have to take away these children. And

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Speaker 1: now he's saying, well, actually, we can make changes in

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Speaker 1: order to prevent this from happening. So that's what's really

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Speaker 1: going to cost him credibility. I don't think his base

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Speaker 1: is is that concerned one way or the other about

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Speaker 1: whether the children are separated or not. What concerns those

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Speaker 1: individuals is whether or not these um people are eligible

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Speaker 1: for asylum and can apply through the legal process as

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Speaker 1: to stay in the United States. They want them removed

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Speaker 1: immediately and uh, you know, without without a process for

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Speaker 1: them to apply to stay in the country. Trump said

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Speaker 1: that he's going to sign something that's somewhat prep preemptive

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Speaker 1: and ultimately will be matched by legislation. Any ideas what

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Speaker 1: he might be signing well, reports are that he's considering, uh,

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Speaker 1: requiring the Department of Homeland Security to detain all children

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Speaker 1: with their parents while at the same time they are

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Speaker 1: being prosecuted by the Department of Justice, and UM, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't really address the problem fully because if any of

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Speaker 1: those parents are sentenced to prison time, they would uh

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Speaker 1: be separated from their children of course, and those children

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Speaker 1: would have to go into foster care. We would take

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Speaker 1: back to the exact same situation that we're at right now. Um.

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Speaker 1: The other problem with it is that there is a

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Speaker 1: court order that requires them to release children after twenty days.

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Speaker 1: They cannot hold children in jails for more than three weeks.

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Speaker 1: And we have said this before. It's a it's a

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Speaker 1: court requirement, and so there is not an opportunity for

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Speaker 1: him to ultimately detain them long enough to go through

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Speaker 1: this entire process. So his executive order won't work. I

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Speaker 1: think he's trying to portray himself as fixing this problem

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Speaker 1: that he created, but it's really not going to resolve

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Speaker 1: the issue. We have news from our Bloomberg DC team

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Speaker 1: that about House members are heading to the White House,

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Speaker 1: so there can be some type of perhaps public event

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Speaker 1: there are the House Republicans said earlier today that they

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Speaker 1: were going to go ahead with some immigration bills. Tell

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Speaker 1: us about the various immigration bills and their chance of passage.

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Speaker 1: There's really two bills that are being voted on probably tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: and one is a extreme hard right bill that would

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Speaker 1: slash legal immigration. That's legal immigration by about um overnight.

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Speaker 1: It would kick millions of people who have been waiting

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Speaker 1: in line for the opportunity to come to this country

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Speaker 1: legally out of line and eliminate their applications entirely. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It would provide some very limited temporary work status to

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Speaker 1: the dreamers. Uh. The alternative on the other side, UH

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Speaker 1: is this compromise bill that was a compromise between moderates

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Speaker 1: and the Republican Party and conservatives, and that bill would

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Speaker 1: do a lot of the same things. It would cut

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Speaker 1: legal immigration by more than a million over the next

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Speaker 1: two decades. It would provide some legalization for for mostly

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Speaker 1: people who are in akka. Uh, those who were too

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Speaker 1: old or uh you know, uh couldn't afford to apply

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Speaker 1: for doctor will probably being left out of this legislation.

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Speaker 1: And um, at the end of the day, you're talking

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Speaker 1: about again banning nearly three million people who have waited

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Speaker 1: in line for legal visas to come to the United

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Speaker 1: States legally. All of those people's applications would be canceled.

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Speaker 1: So it's really a compromise between the hard right and conservatives.

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Speaker 1: But it's still a partisan bill and it's not something

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Speaker 1: that is likely to make its way through the Senate.

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Speaker 1: We have about a minute and a half year. David,

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Speaker 1: now explain what what the position of the Senate is,

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Speaker 1: the Republican and democratic position of the Senate if any

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Speaker 1: of those bills happens to get to it. Well, the

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Speaker 1: Senate already debated this issue, and they had their own proposals.

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Speaker 1: Many of them were similar to the ones that we're

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Speaker 1: adjusted right now that are coming up for a vote

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Speaker 1: in the House. Uh. The one that's most similar to

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Speaker 1: the hard right proposal only got forty votes. It needed

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Speaker 1: sixty votes in order to make it through the Senate.

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Speaker 1: It only got forty votes. Um. Some of the other

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Speaker 1: bipartisan bills in the Senate received a majority of the senators,

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Speaker 1: so more than fifty, but didn't get the threshold. So

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Speaker 1: the Senate, as far as their concerned, tried to do

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Speaker 1: something on this, they weren't able to do it. It's

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Speaker 1: unlikely that they will do anything with these bills. Uh

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Speaker 1: if they make it through UM the House. Well, thanks David.

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Speaker 1: We will keep up to date with you on on

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Speaker 1: what's happening in this issue that seems to be changing

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Speaker 1: but doesn't look like there's any definite proposal in the

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Speaker 1: off thing. That's David Beer. He's an immigration policy analyst

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Speaker 1: at the Cato Institute. FBI Director Christopher Ray stood by

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Speaker 1: Special Counsel Robert Mueller on Monday, as Republicans on the

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Speaker 1: Senate Judiciary Committee asserted the Muller investigation was tainted by

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Speaker 1: anti Trump bias from the start. Senator, as I said

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Speaker 1: to you last month, and as I said before, I

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Speaker 1: did not believe Special Counsel Mueller is on a witch hunt.

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Speaker 1: Inspector General Michael Horowitz also testified at the hearings, which

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Speaker 1: were focused on his report that was critical of former

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Speaker 1: FBI Director James Comey's investigation into Hillary Clinton's email joining

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Speaker 1: me as Jimmy Garula, a professor at Notre Dame Law School, Jimmy,

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Speaker 1: how did Ray do in defending the FBI against the

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Speaker 1: findings of the Inspector General's report? I think he was

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Speaker 1: It was very straightforward. He was unequivocal in his support

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Speaker 1: of A. Bob Moore, and I think in large part

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Speaker 1: because he knows, he knows more, he's worked with him

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Speaker 1: in the past. I think, uh, he is well aware

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Speaker 1: of his integrity and his honesty, and he believes that

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Speaker 1: that he's conducting this investigation in a proper manner. There's

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Speaker 1: been an extraordinary amount of attention paid to about a

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Speaker 1: dozen anti Trump text messages exchanged between an FBI agent

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Speaker 1: an FBI lawyer who were having an affair, perhaps because

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Speaker 1: the texts are so concrete in a massive ambiguity is

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Speaker 1: has there been too much attention paid to this or

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Speaker 1: are these really troubling? Well, they certainly create an appearance

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Speaker 1: of impropriety. They create an appearance here of of unfairness

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Speaker 1: because of the anti Trump sentiments that are included in

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Speaker 1: these text messages. But at the same time, the d

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Speaker 1: o J Department of Justice Inspector General Michael Horowitz concluded

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Speaker 1: that there was no evidence, absolutely not that this bias

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Speaker 1: affected the decision making in either the Hillary Clinton email

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Speaker 1: scandal investigation or the investigation into possible collusion between the

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Speaker 1: Russians and the Trump campaign. The Inspector General also testified

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Speaker 1: on Tuesday at a joint hearing of the House Judiciary

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Speaker 1: and Oversight Committees, where the rhetorics seem to be ramping

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Speaker 1: up a bit. Do you think that he answered questions,

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Speaker 1: particularly those raised by Republican Trey Gaudy who said that

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Speaker 1: that anti Trump bias in the FBI couldn't be put aside. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting with the with the House Republicans. On the

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Speaker 1: one hand, they praise the Inspector General in his report

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Speaker 1: and findings regarding the anti Trump bias. On the other hand,

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Speaker 1: they criticize an attack the same Inspector General in the

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Speaker 1: same report with respect to his findings, and that that

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Speaker 1: that that there's no evidence that the this bias had

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Speaker 1: any effect in either the the Clinton investigation or the

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Speaker 1: Trump campaign investigations. So it seems to me that the

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Speaker 1: House Republicans can't have it both ways. I mean, either

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Speaker 1: the Inspector General did a good job, these were findings

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Speaker 1: that were based on concrete evidence, or not. I don't

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Speaker 1: think you can have it both ways. Do you see

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Speaker 1: any long term effects on the Mueller investigation of the

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Speaker 1: I G. S Report or the testimony we heard. Oh,

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Speaker 1: there's there's no question about it. And I think the

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Speaker 1: hearings here, how the hearing cell before the House Oversight

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Speaker 1: Committee and the House Judiciary Committee, they're political in nature.

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Speaker 1: I think the objective is quite clear. This is an

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Speaker 1: attempt to to taint, to undermine the credibility of the

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Speaker 1: Muller investigations. So therefore, once the investigation is concluded, whatever

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Speaker 1: the findings are, if they again are are negative, they

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Speaker 1: they shed shed bad light or look badly on on

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Speaker 1: on Trump or members of the Trump administration, that the

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Speaker 1: Republics can conflain, well, it was ricked, you know, this

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Speaker 1: was corrupt, it was there was biased. So so I

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Speaker 1: think there's a long term objective here that the Houses

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Speaker 1: is trying to to achieve and move towards and what

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Speaker 1: But what we've seen in the past, which with everything

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Speaker 1: that's come out, every new allegation, is that you have

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Speaker 1: the Republicans on one side and the Democrats another. It's

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Speaker 1: very very part is in doesn't would anything change that

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Speaker 1: in the future. Well, I think perhaps depending upon the

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Speaker 1: findings of the of the Oler investigation and the strength

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Speaker 1: of the evidence to support those findings. I mean, if

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Speaker 1: there if there's a smoking gun, you know, if there

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Speaker 1: are are refuted regarding their credibility or or text messages

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Speaker 1: or phone conversations, then it may be difficult for for

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Speaker 1: the Republicans to to claim that this is a witch

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Speaker 1: h to claim that this is a tain an investigation.

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Speaker 1: Now we have it's about a week almost a week

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Speaker 1: since Paul Manafort was sent to prison. There's been no

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Speaker 1: movement there. Did do you think that it was expected

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Speaker 1: that something would happen quickly after he was put behind bars. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to say. Clearly, he has not been willing

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Speaker 1: to cooperate up to this point. And again he hasn't

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Speaker 1: been in jail, and so perhaps the longer he's he

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Speaker 1: spends in jail, I mean, that could influence his decision. H.

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Speaker 1: The other importance event to keep in mind is that

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Speaker 1: the trial is scheduled for his jury trial. Manforts jury

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Speaker 1: trial is scheduled for September of two thousand and eighteen.

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Speaker 1: So that's not that that far off. And so if

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Speaker 1: he's going to agree to cooperate, he's gonna have to

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Speaker 1: make a decision relatively soon. He's only got a few

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Speaker 1: months left too before the trial begins. Jimmy explain how

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Speaker 1: it's harder to prepare for trial when your client is

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Speaker 1: in prison and you have to go see him all

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Speaker 1: the time. Well, it does create some obstacles. I mean,

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Speaker 1: with respect that you've got to take you know, the lawyer,

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Speaker 1: the defense lawyer has to has to take the time

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Speaker 1: and to travel to the attention facility, has to bring

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Speaker 1: all of the relevant aisles and documents and so on

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Speaker 1: along with him or her to to brief and to

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Speaker 1: discuss the trial and trial strategy with the client. And

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Speaker 1: and certainly that's much more cumbersome than than if Manaphort

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Speaker 1: was was at his home and they could meet in

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Speaker 1: a much more informal setting, kind of at their leisure.

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Speaker 1: And that's clearly not the case. Now. Um, we are

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Speaker 1: we are always happy to have you on the show,

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Speaker 1: and thanks so much. That's Jimmy Grula. He is a

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Speaker 1: professor at Notre Dame Law School. Thanks for listening to

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen to

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Speaker 1: the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg dot

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Speaker 1: com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso. This is Bloomberg