1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. You take a trip, sometimes 2 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: you get excited the anticipation of seeing a new place 3 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: or going somewhere. For me, many times, that excitement soon 4 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: turns to anxiety because I'm worried do I have everything 5 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: I need? Lots of times I have to travel to 6 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: do appearances and things like that, and I'm terrified of 7 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: getting my luggage loss from one and thinking maybe I 8 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: haven't brought certain items that I might need. You can 9 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: always buy those things in another environment, but you know, 10 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: you're familiar with those things that you like, those things 11 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: that you use on a regular basis. When it comes 12 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: to planning a homicide, how do you begin to formulate 13 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: that in your brain? There are people that have engaged 14 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: in the killing of others and they have a murder 15 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: kit that they put together. How do you decide what 16 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: to pack? How do you know what tool you want 17 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: to bring? Today on body Backs, we're going to talk 18 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: about a triple homicide. Three men that were found bound, gagged, 19 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: and shot in the back of the head in two 20 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: separate locations. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs. 21 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: Joining me today is my friend Dave mac. He's a 22 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: senior crime reporter for Crime Online. Dave, I don't know 23 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: that you've ever contemplated something like this, but you know, 24 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: you begin to think, Wow, what would it take? What 25 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: you know? This is not this is a monumental hill 26 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: to climb. An exercise in conducting something like this, participating 27 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: in it. What are you gonna need? What are you 28 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: gonna need before you go out? And you seemingly perhaps 29 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: maybe kidnap people, and then one should kidnap them. What 30 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: are you gonna do with them? How are you going 31 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,399 Speaker 1: to dispose of them? It's certainly something that would give 32 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: you pause, to say the very least, It would require 33 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: a lot of planning, and it would require time. It 34 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: would probably require help to lay it out for you. 35 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: It's eight thirty in the morning and a guy is 36 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: walking down the street. He looks over and sees what 37 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: appears to be two bodies, one laying face up, the 38 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: other laying face down. Pointing that out right now jokes. 39 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you can help us understand if that 40 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: was an actual sign of something. But both the men 41 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: had been bound and gagged, and both men had been 42 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: shot in the head. This is eight thirty in the morning. 43 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: About twenty minutes later, police get a call of another 44 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: person found about two miles from the first what they're 45 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: referring to as the dump site. Two miles from that 46 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: first dump site, they find another man and he has 47 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: found the same way, bound, gagged, shot in the head. 48 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: That's three that we actually can confirm or all dead. 49 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: But we actually have a fourth victim as well. Somehow 50 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: he escaped. Not sure how he was bound, gagged and 51 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: shot in the head, but he survived. So we're unpacking 52 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: three murders and an attempted murder and one man who 53 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: apparently did it all. You started off talking about preparation. 54 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: J Scott Morgan. You've been in this your entire adult life. 55 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: Have you ever seen a case where one individual could 56 00:03:53,920 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: pull off this type of spree? No? No, not. You 57 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: had this many people that were and we're talking about 58 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: grown men where they're being not found in one central location. 59 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: Day Now, I've worked a lot of cases where I 60 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: had multiple homicides, but guess what, they were all located 61 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: in the same dwelling. Most of the time. You have 62 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: this idea of containment where someone will walk into a 63 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: residence and they'll begin to fire randomly, but you have containment, 64 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: yet four walls, there's only a couple of ways you 65 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: can leave. I remember, many, many years ago, I worked 66 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: a multiple homicide case that involved one guy where he 67 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: climbed through the window in a home where a card 68 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: game was going on. He killed everybody in the room, 69 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: killed everybody, but you know he had them contained in 70 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: one tight space. How do you corral three four? How 71 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: do you corral them in one place without having another 72 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: set of hands, another set of eyes to help you. 73 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: If you're talking four adult males, how's one guy going 74 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: to do this? And not just that you're having to 75 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: bind them. That means you're restraining them in some way, 76 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: restraining their hands, and you're having to put a gag 77 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: in their mouth. So you're telling me one guy can 78 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: make four grown men submit to this. You're going to 79 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: tell all of them to get down the floor, because 80 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, if you're holding them at gunpoint, 81 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: where you putting the gun? Where are you putting the 82 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: gun while you're tying their hands or placing the gag 83 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: in their mouth? You think about that and it just 84 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: seems an impossibility. And how are you going to transport them? 85 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: In the same vehicle perhaps, I don't know that would 86 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: require I guess you could get four adult men in 87 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: the backseat of sedan bound and gagged. You know, I'm 88 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: thinking van because you need you need an ability. I 89 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: would think to not just quester, but you know, kind 90 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: of have hidden from view a windowless van perhaps, or 91 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: you know, how are you going to get them to 92 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: lay down on the floor of a vehicle as you're driving? 93 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 1: What are you gonna do? You're gonna take the pistol 94 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: and hold it over your shoulder while you're driving down 95 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: the road. Well, it makes you wonder where they killed somewhere. 96 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously they were. The police say they were kidnapped. Okay, 97 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: they're saying straight out. These men were kidnapped and then 98 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: killed and then dumped. And as you mentioned, I mean, 99 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: how do you control grown men and they're all young, 100 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: they're between twenty five and thirty five, and you've got 101 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: a suspect here who is fifty eight. Elias Gudino is 102 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: the suspect, and he's able to control three grown men. 103 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: Don't know if it was all at the same time. 104 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: What we do know is that two were dumped in 105 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: one location. I'm kind of curious as to why it 106 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: took till eight thirty in the morning before a motorist 107 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: was able to identify their bodies over here where they 108 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: dumped in the middle of the night, and people just 109 00:06:55,760 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: didn't notice, or where they dumped minutes before they were reported. 110 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: Because twenty minutes later police get a call from a 111 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: couple of miles away saying, hey, we got a dump 112 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: body over here. It makes the question as well, you 113 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: know who called that? In the second one, right, you 114 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: got the motorists that's going down the road and they visualize, 115 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: if you will, the bodies. This is an important thing 116 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: too that we do an investigation. We have human remains 117 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: that are found in a location, you want to think 118 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: about points of access. You're learning a lot about a 119 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: case when you find bodies immediately adjacent to a roadway, 120 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: because it gives you an indication that the subject that 121 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,679 Speaker 1: is conveying the individuals, whether they are alive or dead, 122 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: did not go off the beaten path very far. All right, 123 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: perhaps depend upon the type of roadway it is. We're 124 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: thinking hardtop blacktop road, and then they're just going to 125 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: drive to a location park on the side of the road. 126 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: You're running the risk of being seen, so you would 127 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: probably have to do this in the wee hour. You're 128 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: going to open up a door, take them out of 129 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: the vehicle, and then take them to a location. How 130 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: do you And here's another point where they killed. At 131 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: the same time, you've got these two guys that are 132 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: found deposited. As you mentioned, one was face up, which 133 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: in our parlance and medical legal death investigation, we refer 134 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: to that as supine face up. I could go on 135 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: forever and ever. Why we would not use the term 136 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: face up in a crime report because I've seen bodies 137 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: that are the chest is upward, but the head is 138 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: turned around. And when you get into semantics with attorneys, 139 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: and that's where they dance. So we use the term 140 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: soupine most of the time because you're not committing yourself 141 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: or prone or recumbent. Can we learn anything about the 142 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: way the deposition occurred. You've got one that is prone 143 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: and one that is supine, where they've taken out individually 144 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: and shot. Because I gotta tell you, Dave, unless my 145 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: legs are bound, I'm hopping to my feet and I'm 146 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: sprinting as quickly as I possibly can. You might get me. 147 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: But I'm not going to be immediately adjacent to the person. 148 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: I guess everybody kind of says what they will and 149 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: will not do under a set of circumstances like that. 150 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 1: But what we're trying to explore here from a forensic 151 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: standpoint is the dynamics of the event. Back to the roadway, 152 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: I think that this is very important as well. You 153 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: mentioned to key piece here where they killed somewhere else. Well, okay, 154 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,839 Speaker 1: let's think about the injuries that we know about it 155 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: at this point in time. We're talking about head injuries. Right. 156 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 1: The head, the brain, all right, is arguably the most 157 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 1: vascular area of the body. There is a tremendous amount 158 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: of blood supply that goes to that one location of 159 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,719 Speaker 1: the body. If your kid and you fall and you 160 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: split your head open, sometimes looks a lot worse than 161 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: it is because you're bleeding so profusely from that location 162 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of blood. If they were shot 163 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: saying another location and taken from the car and placed 164 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: out there in this location, was there any kind of 165 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: detectible blood trail leading from the side of the road 166 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: to the final place where they were deposited. Also, if 167 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: you've killed both of them. Do you have any kind 168 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 1: of crossing of the blood trails where you've got type 169 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: A that's leading away to the final deposition, and you've 170 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: got type B blood that is leading out there. At 171 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: any point in time, do the lines of blood that 172 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: are found on the ground to the converge and split off. 173 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: Was there an attempt to clean up a blood trail, 174 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: you know, did they drag soil around or is what 175 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: you're seeing right there at that location the extent of 176 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: the deposition of blood. If they're standing over them, the 177 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: perpetrator in this particular case, and they shoot them in 178 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: the head, there's a high probability they're going to drop 179 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: right there, So you're not going to have blood trails 180 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: leading off in any direction. That sort of thing. It's 181 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: a curious, curious scene, that's for sure. I've never been 182 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 1: accused of being the most coordinated person in the world, 183 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: but when it comes to coordination, there are several different types. 184 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 1: As an investigator, when you have multiple scenes that are 185 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: probably involving the same event, it requires coordination. Any partner 186 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 1: that you have in the investigative world, you've all got 187 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: to be seen from the same sheet of music. Because 188 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: the slightest little variance from anything can really bespoil the 189 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: investigation moving forward. You need very carefully to assess both 190 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: of the scenes, because, Dave, one of the things you're 191 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: looking for out there that these scenes are commonalities. You're 192 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: looking for things that they have in common. In this 193 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: particular case, the police were able to pick up a 194 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: suspect fairly quickly. What we do know is the three 195 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: individuals that are dead MRAs is twenty five, Victor Barella 196 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: Rodriguez is thirty one, and Domingo Castillo res is thirty five. 197 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: Don't know anything about the fourth victim, So we're dealing 198 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,079 Speaker 1: with twenty five, thirty one and thirty five year old 199 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: men and a suspect, Elias Gudino, who is fifty eight. Joe, 200 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: I have looked this case back and forth trying to 201 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: figure out how did the police so quickly go to 202 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: Elias Gudino. Well, there actually as a reason. When you 203 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: peel the band aid off his life, you find out 204 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: a lot of things about his past that might be 205 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: part of what we were seeing here. Public records show 206 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: that Gaudino at one time owned a place called the 207 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna destroy this word and I apologize, but English 208 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: is my first and only language. Anything other than that 209 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: is just not going to be pronounced properly. Okay. But 210 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: he owned a store La Mishoka, Takira and grocery. Born 211 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: in Mexico, came to the US in the nineteen eighties 212 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: and became an American citizen in two thousand and nine. 213 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: Mister Gudino is living in Akron. He had at that 214 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 1: time a business. I think it was a landscape business, 215 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: but that was just a cover because, according to federal agents, 216 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: was a drug trafficking organization. They had information showing that 217 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: Gudino had been trafficking drugs since the nineteen nineties. He 218 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,839 Speaker 1: had an operation that was based in southern Mexico but 219 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: reached across the United States in Ohio, Colorado, Oklahoma, and 220 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: other states. Much of that investigation was focused on Acron, Ohio, 221 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: where officials said he was actually supplying cocaine dealers and 222 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 1: operating his business. Now, when investigators tapped Gudino's phone, they 223 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: heard him talking to people in Mexico and other states 224 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: about what he was moving through the trafficking organization. So 225 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: we had an international drug smuggling ring all out of Akron, 226 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: Ohio headed by Elias Gudino. When investigators moved in, Gudino 227 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: and another man were bringing a shipment of cocaine into Acron. 228 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: Court records show that they stopped a vehicle and they 229 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: found about eight kilos of cocaine hidden in a compartment 230 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: near the radiator. So a few months later, Gudino pleads guilty. 231 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: Obviously it was a negotiated thing, two federal charges involving 232 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: drug trafficking. He was sentenced to twelve and a half 233 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: years in prison, followed by five years of probation. He 234 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: served his time. He was released in November of twenty seventeen. 235 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: Court records say that he remained on probation until May 236 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: of last year. So that brings us too, now, okay, 237 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: of the life of Elias Gudino. So one has to 238 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: wonder these current murders are they part of a payback 239 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: for what send him to prison in two thousand and nine. Possibly. 240 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: You have to try to understand relationships between people. You know, 241 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: we were talking about mister Gudino. He's fifty eight years old. Now, 242 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: unless you're working for him. I gotta say I don't 243 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: see a fifty eight year old cat hanging out with 244 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: twenty somethings. From a perspective of behavior, you begin to 245 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: think about, well, what kind of connection did they have? Well, 246 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: it's probably not going to be kind of this casual, friendly, 247 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,239 Speaker 1: let's go play darts, have a couple of beers relationship, 248 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: you generally are going to gravitate toward those people are 249 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: in your age group. So what is it? And this 250 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: is another thing when you're talking about a violent crime 251 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: like homicide. One of the many motivating factors behind homicide 252 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: is passion, rage, those sorts of things that are associated 253 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: with kind of an intimacy. And it doesn't necessarily have 254 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: to be sexual, but it has to be something so 255 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: intimate it gens up that kind of rage and an 256 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: individual to want to eradicate a person. So if we're 257 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: thinking that that relationship doesn't exist on that plane, then 258 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: perhaps the answer rest somewhere else. Are these in fact 259 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: business associates? Is there something that got between Dino and 260 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: his money or Gadino and his freedom as you had mentioned, 261 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: you know, that's a big piece to this. Think about 262 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: messages having been sent. I think that that's certainly something because, boy, 263 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: you talk about on a grand scale, to send a message, 264 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: you're going to wipe out three lives like this. What 265 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: kind of message are you sending? Yeah, you mentioned that 266 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: they might not be direct relations because of their ages. 267 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: He's fifty eight. These guys are between twenty five and 268 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: thirty five. In two thousand and nine, when he was 269 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: arrested and dealt with all the charges, Mraz was only 270 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: eleven years old. Yeah, how could we have had anything 271 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: to do with traffic? Maybe at parents, brother sister. Yeah, 272 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. I'll show you. You know that sort 273 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: of thing. You never know how these things can be 274 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: networked together, and sometimes you uncover some of the most 275 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: bizarre types of relationships when you have an individual that's 276 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: attempting to message somebody by use of this level of violence. 277 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: There's another thing too. I was just going back over 278 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: the images from where these two individuals were found together. 279 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: It's kind of a bucolic looking neighborhood. It is a 280 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: two lane blacktop. The woods are immediately adjacent to several 281 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: residences that look nice their new bills or newer bills. 282 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: And then across from these homes is where the bodies 283 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: were deposited, in kind of a thinly wooded area. This 284 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: is a location that someone would have had to have 285 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: been familiar with. And what's quite striking here is you 286 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: can see houses immediately adjacent to the road like that 287 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: are just across the road, and then there are more 288 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: houses that you can arely make out through the woodline 289 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: where the bodies are found. You're going to go out 290 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: there and shoot these guys, pop them in the back 291 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 1: of the head where that sound could be heard, and 292 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: not just one guy, You're going to do two guys 293 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: out there. That suggests a certain level of comfort, I 294 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: think with a particular area when you're looking at a 295 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: suspect and you're trying to determine what kind of profile 296 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: the individual might fit that would perpetrate something that is 297 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: this heinous and would be done in an area that 298 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: I don't know. Arguably, nothing like this has ever occurred 299 00:18:50,280 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: in Well, we know where it ended. It ended in 300 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: two separate wooded areas. But you know, I think the 301 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: big question that just kind of hangs in the air 302 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: at this moment relative to what we know about this 303 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: case is where did it begin? You know, there are 304 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 1: certain things that we can look to and forensics that 305 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: can potentially give us those answers. I'm curious. Joseph Scott Morgan. 306 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: It seems to me that we see things on TV 307 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: where police immediately say, well, they were obviously shot over 308 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: here and drug over here and blah blah blah. But 309 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: when police come on a scene, they get a phone 310 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: call at eight thirty in the morning, we had two 311 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: bodies over here. Twenty minutes later, we got a body 312 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: over here. When they start the investigation, they're looking at 313 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 1: deceased individuals and they're marking time as to how they're 314 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: finding them candiated to that they were killed somewhere else 315 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: and were placed here for a reason. Can they determine 316 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: that based on the condition of the body. Yeah, yeah, 317 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: they certainly can. And one thing that's really nagging me 318 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: in this case, Dave, is that, just given the imagery 319 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: that we kind of see from the scene here, there 320 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: are other locations that you could go that are far flung. 321 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: You've got riverbeds, you've got gullies, you've got washes all 322 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: over the place, places that would make it difficult for 323 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: a regular person it's just going about their business to 324 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: visualize a body. And of course, if you can obscure 325 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: a body, that gives you time as a perpetrator to 326 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: get as much distance between yourself and a body. That's 327 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: not what happened here. These bodies were easily seen from 328 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: the roadway. It would be no trouble whatsoever. Once the 329 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: sun rose sufficiently and blasted light onto this area, you 330 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: could see these individuals laying in you know, I would 331 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: describe as a thinly wooded area. Why would this individual 332 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: choose this area? Were they killed there? We talked about 333 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: the sound you would have heard the sound I think 334 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: out here, And how could we tell if they had 335 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: been killed in another location and then brought to this location? 336 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: You know, I talked about the evidence of any kind 337 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: of blood trail it was leading out to the body. 338 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: But also the longer we go down the postmortem interval timeline, 339 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: that's PMI, postmortem interval, we look for changes in human remains. 340 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: We look for things like rigor mortis. If someone is say, 341 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: seated in a chair, okay, and they're shot, They're shot 342 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 1: in chest or the head, and they're left seated in 343 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: that chair over a very short period of time, rigidity 344 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: will begin to set in. If you get four hours 345 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: down range, the body will not rugging. Mortis will not 346 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: be fully fixed, but the body will be appreciably rigid. 347 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: So if you were to take that body out of 348 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: a chair, place it in a car, and then take 349 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: it and deposit it somewhere, the body's going to have 350 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: kind of a contracted look to it, where the knees 351 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 1: are pulled up, maybe the arms are kind of angular. 352 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: And this is something that would be associated with someone 353 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,239 Speaker 1: that had been seated in a chair long enough for 354 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: them to begun stiffening. But the other thing that sets 355 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: in a lot quicker than that is post mortem leavidity 356 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: or liver mortis l I v o R, which is 357 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: the gravitational settling of blood. If you've ever when you 358 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: were a kid, or maybe you have kids, you take 359 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 1: them out of the playground, they hang upside down on 360 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: monkey bars and the head starts to turn red and swell, Well, 361 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 1: that's blood that's actually being it's gravitationally dependent. It's pulling 362 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: down to that area. It's literally the same principle gravity 363 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: is pulling blood, which is liquid. It's viscous liquid, but 364 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: it's it's pulling it down to that lowest point of gravity. 365 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: Think about the basement in your house. One of the 366 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: things your parents are always worried about, you know, is 367 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: their water setting up in the basement though the water's 368 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: going to seek the lowest point. It's the same principle. 369 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: So if you have postmoral leavidity, which you can actually 370 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: see presenting within twenty minutes of death, Dave, that takes 371 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: a bit longer for it to fix. But if you 372 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: have someone, say, for instance, where they're shot in the 373 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: back of the head, they're left seated in a chair 374 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: while prep is being made to transport the bodies, blood 375 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: will settle to the ankles. You'll see it pronounced in 376 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: the feet, You'll see it on the backs of the legs. 377 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: Now where the buttocks was touching the chair, it'll be 378 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: what we refer to as blanched out. It'll still be 379 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: white kind of because the blood can't get into those 380 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: areas because it's secluded by the pressure of the supporting 381 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: area of the chair to the relative to the buttock 382 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: where where it's touching. Also on the back there's pressure 383 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: being applied to the back. You might see it around 384 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: the shoulders, are down at the base of the back 385 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: where it has settled and modeled there. But you'll have 386 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 1: these indicators. So when an investigator goes out to the 387 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: scene and they begin to visualize the body. They're going 388 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: to say, Wow, look at this distribution of post mortem 389 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: leavidity here. This is really odd. It looks like they 390 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: had been in a chair, or maybe if they were 391 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: face up using that term, if they were face up supine, 392 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: and you have leavidity that is all on the anterior, 393 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: that means on the front of the body. But yet 394 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: they're laying on their back. Guess what you're going to 395 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: know at some point in time, this person had laid 396 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: on their belly long enough for blood to settle to 397 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: that area, and now they're being taken out of a 398 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: vehicle and placed on the ground so that their back 399 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: is supporting the body. That's going to give you a 400 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: different presentation. Now, Joe, let me ask you this. When 401 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 1: you're talking about riger mortis. Okay, I've always heard it 402 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: called rigor mortis. I apologize in advance. No, no no, no, 403 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: it's two different pronunciations. People say roger. Some people will 404 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: say rigger. Yeah, so riger mortis. All right, you've got 405 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: a body, body shot dead, boom. It takes a certain 406 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: amount of time for rigor mortist even set in. But 407 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: then after an extended period of time, doesn't the body 408 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: to loosen. Yeah, but Dave, you're so far down range 409 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: after that period of time, and and that's that's called 410 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: becoming flaccid at that point in time. For folks that 411 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: don't know with riger rigger a rigidity, some people will 412 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: use that term. What's happening well in the joints in particular, 413 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: you have lactic acid that's beginning to build up. We 414 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: have lactic acid that's naturally occurring in the remains in 415 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: our body in life. But the thing about it is 416 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: is that we're metabolizing that, and so it doesn't set 417 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: in the closest you will ever understand. The sensation of 418 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: riger in life is if you haven't worked out in 419 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: a while and you go to the jim, you wake 420 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: up the next morning, you're stiff. You'll see a stiffening 421 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: in the joints, and that's lactic acid. You can take 422 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: things that will resolve the pain immediately are in time, 423 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: but either way it's going to work its way out. 424 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: The dead can't metabolize the lactic acid, so for them, 425 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 1: that body is not going to be free from that rigidity. 426 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: For it's variable. It's very much environmentally dependent. Heat kind 427 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: of speeds things up in the decompositional process. You might 428 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: be looking at thirty six hours plus or minus before 429 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: the individual becomes flaccid again, which means limbs are flexible. 430 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: They're flexible at the knees, the hips, you can actually 431 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: open the mouth. The mouth, believe it or not, is 432 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: one of the most glaring examples. It's so rigid little 433 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: piece of history here. If you've ever seen a Christmas Carol, 434 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: you know Charles Dickens when Marley's ghost first appears in 435 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: several iterations of the play and the teleplay, and that 436 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: sort of thing has a kerchief tied around his head. Well, 437 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that they used to do, 438 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: because if you didn't, the body would develop what's referred 439 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: to as the O sign, and the mouth looks like 440 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 1: an O okay, And that's because the jaw opens and 441 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: then it freezes. And certainly during Victorian times, that was 442 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: considered improper. Look like you could pitch pennies in a 443 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: person's mouth if they're laying in state. So they would 444 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: they would take a kerchief and tied around the head 445 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: and that would lock the jaw into place, and then 446 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: rider would set in and the mouth was kind of frozen. 447 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: That way, so you'll begin to see the flacidity, if 448 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: you will, of the body after a period of time. 449 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: If you get out to that point as a time marker, 450 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 1: you're going to know that the individual has been out 451 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: there for a while, or they had been retained in 452 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: another location for a protracted period of time. You couple 453 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: that with other findings like certainly live remortists, which we 454 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 1: mentioned are post mortem lividity. So here's another term that 455 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: I haven't thrown out there is called algor mortis, and 456 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: this is the term that most people associate with post 457 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: mortum interval, and that's temperature body temperature, which is arguably 458 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 1: the most unreliable thing that you can use in order 459 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: to determine post mortem interval. And then net autopsy, of 460 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 1: course we use the gastric contents and kind of the 461 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: process of food making it through the digest track. But 462 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: you couple all of that at the scene and you're 463 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: trying to create a picture. At that moment time, you've 464 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: got two dead guys in this one location that's easily 465 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: seen from the road. You've got another person that has 466 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: been deposited what two miles away? Are they in the 467 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: same state at that moment time, and then you've got 468 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: this one survivor, this guy that seemingly played dead. Can 469 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: you imagine that being shot in the head and surviving 470 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: a gunshot went to the head. How in the world 471 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: we've got mn in a as you mentioned, a fairly 472 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: public place that are dumped, one face up, one face down, 473 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: and then twenty minutes later we get a call of 474 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: another body dumped in a place where people can see. 475 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: I can't get my head around this as to these 476 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: these three victims. Were they out there all night and 477 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: they were just discovered at that time, or was this 478 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: a case of they were dumped within minutes of the 479 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: of the call coming in. Yeah, that's a fascinating thing here. 480 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: The one thing that you have out in this location 481 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: is the cover of darkness, because, as you will know, Dave, 482 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: we both kind of live in rural areas. Black as pitch, 483 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: as they say at night, it literally is if if 484 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: you're away from the city, you can't see your hand 485 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: in front of your face on a moonless night, and 486 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: on this particular evening it had been raining. It was 487 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: raining out there, Dave, and just looking at the imagery 488 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: from from the crime scene, roadways are wet, the sky 489 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: is overcast, so the most probably there would not have 490 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: been even ambient light from stars or the moon or whatever. 491 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: The only chance you might have of illumination out there 492 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: would obviously be headlights that might shine on the area, 493 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: some type of floodlight. It would have been very very 494 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: dark out in these locations, so the best, it would 495 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: seem the best time to have done this would be 496 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: under the cover of darkness. Again, this brings us back 497 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: to this idea of depositing of the bodies. I think 498 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: another curious thing that we can discover from not just 499 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: the scene but also from the bodies is what have 500 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: we mentioned. We've mentioned restraint because they use this term bound. 501 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: What were they bound with? Well, we're all four subjects, 502 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: including the one that escaped. Were they bound with the 503 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: same thing? Are we talking zip ties here? Were talking rope? 504 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: Was it the same kind of rope or did they 505 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: just willing knee league grab rope from different locations and 506 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: tie these individuals wrist up. Where they tied in the front, 507 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: where they tied in the back. What kind of knot 508 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: was used? Because that's going to tell you a lot 509 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: about the individual that is engaged in this. If it's 510 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: a knot. There are people out there that will simply 511 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: sit down and they will give you a profile on 512 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: an individual based upon the kind of knot that they 513 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: can tie. It tells you about what kind of background 514 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: the person might have. If you've got a person that 515 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: has an old sailor, for instance, they're very adept at 516 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: tying complicated knots things that I could never figure out. 517 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: Or you have somebody that just has basic rudimentary skills 518 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: as to how to tie a knot, or if it's 519 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: a zip tie where they purchased from the same place, 520 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: are these same type of zip ties, because there's so 521 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: many out there. And then the gag, what's it made 522 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: out of? Is it a ball gag that you purchased 523 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: at a store you know somebody would use in sex 524 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: play that sort of thing. Is it a rag that 525 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: they tied around somebody or did they stuff something in 526 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: their mouth and then secure it with a rag? And 527 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: then the big question here, I think is if we're 528 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: talking about gunshot wounds, which we are, we've got at 529 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: least a minimum four, Are there spent casings? Is there 530 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: any evidence that at the scene they found spent brass 531 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: laying around And let me tell you what else they 532 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: would have done out at the scene, Dave, after these 533 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: bodies are removed. There's a high probability, and they could 534 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: do this before as well, But there's a high probability 535 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: that if these gunshot wounds are through and through, they're 536 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: going to bring a metal detector out there. If they 537 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: find a projectile in the ground or maybe two, you 538 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: have to ask the question, do these two projectiles marry 539 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: up with the same weapon or the casings the spent casings. 540 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: Do they have the same breech block mark on the 541 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: back of them or pen strikes, you know, where the 542 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: firing pin hits the primer cap or are the extraction 543 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: marks the same the ejector marks. Are they the same 544 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: or closely resemble that they could have originated from the 545 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: same weapon. All of these questions are going to play 546 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: in to this investigation and to ultimately how many people 547 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: were involved, Was it a single perpetrator, Where were these 548 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: individuals killed, and where they all deposited at the same time. 549 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks