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Speaker 1: Oh, conspiracy realist friends, neighbors. We are super excited for

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Speaker 1: this one. This classic episode is one of the things

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Speaker 1: that we talked about at length with each other hanging

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Speaker 1: out in our little what do we call it the

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Speaker 1: fish bowl?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, before we even did this show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is just the name. It's one of those

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Speaker 3: things you stumble upon, maybe on a message board, as

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Speaker 3: you start to get curious about unsolved mysteries and conspiracies

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Speaker 3: and things like that. You'll see this written for the

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Speaker 3: first time. Yeah all of us did. We all saw

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Speaker 3: it one time. We're like, mk Ultra what is that

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Speaker 3: Mortal Kombat? Is that like moratl Kombat Ultra Edition?

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Speaker 4: I've never heard of boom boom boom boom boom.

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Speaker 3: But really, like your brain says, that sounds crazy already.

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Speaker 3: And then you start to learn what it is like

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Speaker 3: we're about to do in this episode, and it makes

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Speaker 3: you question pretty much everything else.

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Speaker 1: Please tune in and realize behind the curtain, I think this, uh,

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Speaker 1: this kind of stuff may have been one of the foundation,

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Speaker 1: foundational cornerstones of our friendship.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this, and I think Edward Burne's oh gosh, that guy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, from UFOs to Psychic Powers, and government conspiracies. History

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Speaker 4: is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now

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Speaker 4: or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 2: A production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 5: What's your Name?

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Speaker 3: My name is Matt, my name is Noah.

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Speaker 2: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with

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Speaker 2: our super producer Paul Mission Control Decant. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 2: are you, You are here, and that makes this stuff

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Speaker 2: they don't want you to know. This is an episode

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Speaker 2: that we've received numerous requests for and Matt, if I

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Speaker 2: recall correctly, and at least the two of us, we

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Speaker 2: were both surprised that we had done this yet. Is

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Speaker 2: that is that accurate?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, We're having many echoes of videos such as the

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Speaker 3: Project Artichoke, several part series that we made in the past.

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Speaker 3: And we've mentioned MK ultras so many times on this

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Speaker 3: show just as a throwaway mention of mind to control.

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Speaker 3: Whenever we bring something even closely related to that or

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Speaker 3: kind of related to mind control, we always joke, m

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Speaker 3: gay ultra, right, right, But we've never put it all

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Speaker 3: in one thing.

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Speaker 2: So here it is MK ultra one oh one For

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Speaker 2: a lot of us listening today. It's true that there

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Speaker 2: has been a war going on somewhere on the planet

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Speaker 2: for every moment of your life. Not all wars are

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Speaker 2: created equal. Of course, some are fought out in the open,

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Speaker 2: massive waves of soldiers crashing against one another in the

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Speaker 2: blood and the dirt. Others, of course, are fought through proxies,

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Speaker 2: where it's where foreign powers turn a third nation or

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Speaker 2: country into a battleground and mercenaries disguised as student activists

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Speaker 2: or freedom fighters kill one another while the people who

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Speaker 2: live there look on helplessly. Others, of course, are fought

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Speaker 2: surreptitiously in the shadows, kind of a spy versus spy thing.

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Speaker 2: And if you were born after World War iiO, that

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Speaker 2: means you were alive during what we call the Cold War,

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Speaker 2: this long running ideological hegemonic conflict between the USSR and

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Speaker 2: the West. Most mainstream thought will tell us that this

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Speaker 2: Cold War ended with the fall of the Soviet Union,

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Speaker 2: although some people will quietly assure you this war continues

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Speaker 2: today and a lot of those people under some people

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Speaker 2: are Russian pointing that out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and or just people who work in the State Department.

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Speaker 2: And perhaps those as well. Yeah, yeah, So intelligence agencies

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Speaker 2: on both sides of the Cold War tried to get

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Speaker 2: any sort of edge they could better technology, better access

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Speaker 2: to resources, better propaganda displays like getting to space, landing on.

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Speaker 3: The moon, or I was thinking about digging a giant

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Speaker 3: hole and going as far as you can into the Earth,

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Speaker 3: just as a fun thing to say, Yeah, we dug

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Speaker 3: the biggest what's up? I know Russia has done that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's true. That is a true story. There's another

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Speaker 2: aspect that we don't talk about as much, perhaps as

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Speaker 2: we should, which is gaining better control over people, regardless

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Speaker 2: of where they live or what they do. In today's episode,

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Speaker 2: as as you said, is ultimately about that last idea,

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Speaker 2: how do you best control people? The CIA pursued this

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Speaker 2: question through a series of programs collectively known today as

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Speaker 2: MK Ultra. Here are the facts. Actually, no, we have

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Speaker 2: to skip it for this one. Here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 3: Gosh, straight to crazy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah dang.

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Speaker 3: So here are the two dates you need to know.

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Speaker 3: But then there's a third one and it sounds complicated,

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Speaker 3: but it just means sh from at least nineteen fifty

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Speaker 3: three to nineteen sixty four, officially wrapping all the way

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Speaker 3: up in nineteen seventy three, the CIA used various front

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Speaker 3: companies and the like to conduct at it at times

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Speaker 3: illegal experiments on unwitting human subjects. And this included a

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Speaker 3: disposure to things like illegal drugs, LSD, other chemicals, and

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Speaker 3: a large dollop of what we would consider to be

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Speaker 3: social manipulation.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and the aims of these programs all varied. They

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Speaker 2: ran the gamut, but they also shared a common theme

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Speaker 2: to explore previously unexploited ways of influencing human behavior. Can

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Speaker 2: we actually brainwash someone? Can we genuinely hypnotize someone? Can

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Speaker 2: we make them tell the truth? Or can we implant

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Speaker 2: some series of future actions in their mind?

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Speaker 3: New false memories?

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Speaker 2: Manchurian candidate.

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Speaker 3: I was gonna say, I didn't want to say it.

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Speaker 2: Oh did I spoil it?

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Speaker 3: It's okay, we're going to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: Trigger word assassins.

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Speaker 3: M ladies in polka dot dresses.

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Speaker 5: There we go, inception style dream exploration.

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Speaker 2: They and for years and years and years and years

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Speaker 2: and years, rumors about this kind of nefarious activity floated

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Speaker 2: around in the counter culture of America. The mainstream largely

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Speaker 2: dismissed it until the seventies, when a new York Times

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Speaker 2: journalist named Seymour Hirsch, who will be familiar to longtime

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Speaker 2: listeners of stuff they will want you to Know, published

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Speaker 2: this story in nineteen seventy four detailing how the CIA

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Speaker 2: conducted non consensual drug experiments and illegal spye operations domestically

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Speaker 2: on US citizens. Would later come to find that Canadians

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Speaker 2: were victimized as well. The spook squad flew out of

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Speaker 2: the country to experiment on some folks they consider representative

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Speaker 2: of a communist block. So this allegation hits in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventies, as we said, with the New York Times

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Speaker 2: publishing it. But the problem here is that this is

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Speaker 2: a newer chapter in a very long story. When we

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Speaker 2: talk about truth serums and the attempts to discover one,

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Speaker 2: we go all the way back to nineteen sixteen, right.

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Speaker 3: Way way way back, and that's when that's the first

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Speaker 3: time that scopel me in is seen to be like

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Speaker 3: having an effect on a human and ultimately scopel me

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Speaker 3: is something that's used to I guess as a truth serum,

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Speaker 3: is used as a truth serum. But back in nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixteen is when it's first seen. Then you can jump

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Speaker 3: all the way to nineteen thirty one when you see

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Speaker 3: the sodium pentathal, which is the thing we've discussed before

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Speaker 3: the official Truth serum.

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Speaker 2: But never actually tried.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that we know of, right.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that I know of? Who knows? Huh? And then

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Speaker 2: since nineteen forty two on the US government has been

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Speaker 2: interested in this kind of stuff, right, especially originally under

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Speaker 2: General William Wild Bill Donovan. So this stuff has occurred,

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Speaker 2: it's just most people didn't know about it. And to

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Speaker 2: one degree or another, what makes.

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Speaker 3: Complete sense anytime you are at war and you've got

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Speaker 3: an enemy combatant and you if you could inject something

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Speaker 3: into that combatant and then get the coordinates of where

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Speaker 3: the rest of his battalion is or something, I mean, done,

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Speaker 3: end of story. You're gonna do that absolutely.

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Speaker 2: And in his article, Hirsch also talks about how they

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Speaker 2: managed to bring these details about MK Ultra to light.

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Speaker 2: It looks legit. His sources are right, He's walked through

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Speaker 2: the process. You can see chain of custody for all

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Speaker 2: the stuff he found, and then primarily he found it

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Speaker 2: through a government mistake. This was never meant to be discovered,

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Speaker 2: but the discovery resulted, and calls for an investigation. Eventually,

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Speaker 2: even Congress paid attention, which is unusual for Congress. They

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Speaker 2: held a hearing on this in nineteen seventy five, the

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Speaker 2: famous Church Committee, and they had Senate hearings just a

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Speaker 2: little bit later.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 5: The later hearings only occurred after a FOI Freedom of

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Speaker 5: Information Act request uncovered a cash of twenty thousand documents

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Speaker 5: that were related to Project mk Ultra. And according to

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Speaker 5: that report, mk Ultra was meant to develop. So the

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Speaker 5: words would report develop a capability in the covert use

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Speaker 5: of biological and chemical materials. Pretty vague, doesn't really tell

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Speaker 5: you what they were going for. Covert secret use of

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Speaker 5: some biological or chemical materials, but to what end. But

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Speaker 5: what they were referring to was mind control efforts, and

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Speaker 5: they started in Earnest in nineteen forty nine under the

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Speaker 5: name of Project Bluebird's been talked about pretty extensively on

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Speaker 5: the show. More back on the video days. I would say, right, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we mentioned Bluebird when we made the

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Speaker 3: Artichoke videos. And there are a whole bunch of those

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Speaker 3: code names that we can get into maybe a little later,

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Speaker 3: but Bluebird was a big one.

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Speaker 2: And Bluebird was reactionary, right, mm hmm.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: It was in reaction to the quote bizarre conduct of

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Speaker 5: a cardinal by the name of Menzenti at his trial

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Speaker 5: in Budapest, when he confessed to reason.

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Speaker 2: He clearly, in their minds, he clearly appeared to have

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Speaker 2: had brainwashing techniques applied to him. He confessed the stuff

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Speaker 2: he demonstrably did not and could not have done. He

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Speaker 2: claimed that he was going to topple this one regime

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Speaker 2: to bring in I guess capitalism, and then he was

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Speaker 2: going to supplant the United States after it was a

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Speaker 2: one world government and become the supreme authority of the

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Speaker 2: country himself. It was very wow, very strange. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: they thought they have done something to this guy's mind,

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Speaker 2: and we need to be able to well, the way

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Speaker 2: they phrases we need to be able to stop it,

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Speaker 2: or we need to know what they're doing. What they

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Speaker 2: really meant is we need to have that capability. So

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Speaker 2: they started contemplating behavior control for offensive purposes. They were

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Speaker 2: at least partially motivated by fear that China and the

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Speaker 2: Soviet Union had already made significant breakthroughs in this field.

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Speaker 3: I was either probably terrified of that, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And here's the thing. Although it sounds like a rationalization,

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Speaker 2: at this point, the CIA history vindicated them. They were

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Speaker 2: they were correct. The Soviet Union had been conducting wholly

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Speaker 2: independent research along the same lines, with a lot of

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Speaker 2: extra parapsychological stuff thrown in, and they had a decade

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Speaker 2: long jump on Uncle Sam. All in all, as far

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Speaker 2: as we know, they spend at least a billion dollars.

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Speaker 2: It's still even more enigmatic than mk ULTR. We don't

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Speaker 2: know when it ended, but we know they called it psychotronics.

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Speaker 5: Psychotronics, that's a cool name, and we had as a

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Speaker 5: record store in my hometown called Psychotronic Record.

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Speaker 2: Whoa whoa Soviet front dat.

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Speaker 5: It's very small. I don't know where they would hide.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's subterring these as well.

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Speaker 3: That's that is a great video. A couple of videos

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Speaker 3: we've made, and I think an episode we did a

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Speaker 3: full episode on that didnety Psychotronics. Ell if not, it's

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Speaker 3: coming soon. And that was fascinating because it's looking into everything, right.

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Speaker 3: It was it was like Stargate, Like Project Stargate was

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Speaker 3: almost to the United States where were looking at psychic

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Speaker 3: soldiers and all that stuff outside of just truth serums

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Speaker 3: and LSD and effects of the mind right right.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting because in the US these were more compartmentalized.

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Speaker 2: Like when Nola and I interviewed Russell Targan earlier and

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Speaker 2: he was talking a little bit about Project Stargate that

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Speaker 2: was not related to in Kultra. It's an important difference.

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Speaker 2: In Kultra is how can we control the mind? And yeah,

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Speaker 2: and Stargate is more about what we would consider psychic

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Speaker 2: or superpowers. They also said that we have to understand

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Speaker 2: these techniques because we need to defend ourselves against people

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Speaker 2: who might not be as restrained in the use of

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Speaker 2: these tactics as we are. So we're learning how to

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Speaker 2: do evil stuff because we're very good boys. That's that's

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Speaker 2: sort of the logic. I mean, I get it. But

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Speaker 2: you can see where it's I don't want to say disingenuous,

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Speaker 2: but convenient.

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Speaker 3: Sure, No, I can definitely see that.

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Speaker 2: So that's what they describe. Where's the line? Why is this?

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Speaker 2: You know who cares?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: But what's too far? Right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I mean, if you're already doing this stuff, where at

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Speaker 3: what point do you say, Okay, we shouldn't do that anymore.

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Speaker 3: Let's look at that right after a quick word from

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Speaker 3: our sponsor.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's a good question. There's nothing wrong with

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Speaker 2: secret government projects legally speaking, as we listen to this episode,

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Speaker 2: no matter where you're listening, where you're located, or where

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Speaker 2: what you consider your home country, we can virtually guarantee

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Speaker 2: you that they are up to something and it is

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Speaker 2: occurring in secret because it's meant to protect the government,

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Speaker 2: the employees of the government, and citizens of the country.

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Speaker 2: You know, let me call it national secrecy. The problem

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Speaker 2: here is that despite that that theory, in practice secrecy

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Speaker 2: is often used to hide acts that would be crimes

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Speaker 2: if anybody else in the country committed them. The CIA

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Speaker 2: was doing stuff that we give people life in prison

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Speaker 2: with no parole.

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Speaker 3: Oh for sure.

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Speaker 2: I mean, let's like, let's say, for instance, that we

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Speaker 2: catch a wild hair and we go around sneaking drugs

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Speaker 2: in people's food, your imposity market. If we got caught,

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Speaker 2: we'd go to court. Those rules are just different when

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Speaker 2: it comes to government sanctioned acts.

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Speaker 3: We would go to court and probably just go straight

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Speaker 3: to jail, no.

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Speaker 2: Matter how straight to hale.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and well again, and we're kind of like joking

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Speaker 3: about it in a way. But this is exactly what

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Speaker 3: the Central Intelligence Agency did. No, Oh, absolutely, they put

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Speaker 3: stuff in people, and those people had no idea. In

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Speaker 3: nineteen fifty five, only two years after the program was

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Speaker 3: officially approved, the project was already having just serious issues

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Speaker 3: with a thing we've mentioned here before that happens in

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Speaker 3: a lot of big projects with a lot of money,

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Speaker 3: even here at our job, especially here at our job,

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Speaker 3: mission creep, oh, mission creep, where just that one little

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Speaker 3: thing that you're supposed to be doing ends up turning

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Speaker 3: into all these other things and spreading all the way

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Speaker 3: out to the edges of the desk. So the scope

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Speaker 3: of experimentation expanded, and it was they were trying to find, well,

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Speaker 3: let's just let's call this discovery of the following materials

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Speaker 3: and methods, including those which will promote the intoxicating effect

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Speaker 3: of alcohol.

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Speaker 2: That sounds nice, So make you more drunk, more quickly,

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Speaker 2: more severely.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's nice, Which will render the induction of hypnosis

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Speaker 3: easier or otherwise enhance its usefulness. Okay, I can see

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Speaker 3: why you're gonna use that in some interrogation, which will

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Speaker 3: enhance the ability of individuals to withstand privation torture. Are

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Speaker 3: in coercion during interrogation and so called brainwashing. Oh, so

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Speaker 3: privation is uh, what the what the hell is that?

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Speaker 2: We just we we talked about this a little bit

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Speaker 2: off air. So privation is the act of depriving people

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Speaker 2: of basic human necessities food, clothing, water, shelter, air, I guess,

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Speaker 2: but not for too long. And you pointed out, knowl

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Speaker 2: that that's pretty weird language wise, linguistically, that's.

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Speaker 5: Weird, right, depriv Well, I said, is so is privation

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Speaker 5: like the opposite of deprivation.

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Speaker 2: Which would be extremely to give people stuff?

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Speaker 5: But no, now it is. How did you put it?

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Speaker 2: Then?

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Speaker 5: Well?

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Speaker 2: I would It's just it's to deny them, to deprive

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Speaker 2: the act. Yeah, I got, this is just it's got

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Speaker 2: really complicated.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Man, this isn't even the rabbit hole for today.

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Speaker 3: I'm alien here we are. I'm feeling prived of direction,

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Speaker 3: So let's keep doing this. They're also looking for that

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Speaker 3: which will produce amnesia for events proceeding and during their use.

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Speaker 3: So a drug or some other substance that would do that,

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Speaker 3: that which will produce shock and confusion for extended periods

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Speaker 3: of time, and capable of surreptitious use. Wow, this sounds

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Speaker 3: like just the best stuff ever that which will produce

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Speaker 3: physical disablement such as paralysis of the legs, acute anemia,

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Speaker 3: et cetera.

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Speaker 2: It's like real hypnol essentially described, or they're describing ro

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Speaker 2: hypnol or some other drug with amnesia.

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Speaker 3: Disabled you a little yeah, And then let's see. According

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Speaker 3: to the Hearing Report, eighty six universities or institutions were involved.

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Speaker 3: Eighty six universities or institutions and one hundred and eighty

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Speaker 3: five non government researchers and assistants worked on these these projects.

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Speaker 3: What and then we have another quote here. It says physicians, toxicologists,

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Speaker 3: and other specialists in mental and narcotics Mental and narcotics

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Speaker 3: were lured into mk ULTRA through the provision of grants

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Speaker 3: that were made under ostensible Research Foundation auspices, thereby concealing

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Speaker 3: the CIA's interest from the specialists institution. So what are

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Speaker 3: we saying here. It's what we said at the top.

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Speaker 3: They're concealing that they are actually doing this. That is

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Speaker 3: the CIA, with their tentacles going into these other institutions

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Speaker 3: essentially getting money and researching stuff that they're going to

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Speaker 3: use in the field.

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Speaker 2: Right, But they don't think they're working for the CIA.

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Speaker 2: They think they're working for like the American Foundation of

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Speaker 2: totally legitimate benevolence.

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Speaker 3: Oh, you mean the specialists and the toxicologsts, other people

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Speaker 3: who are working with the drugs and the methods. They

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Speaker 3: don't know exactly, So it's the CIA. Like again, it's

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Speaker 3: like the Black Tar, the black Goo and X files.

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Speaker 3: It's just like seeping in and finding its way and

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Speaker 3: infecting people without knowing it.

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Speaker 5: The Pink Slime and Ghostbusters too, very similar a force

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Speaker 5: for both good or your san shan't goo.

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Speaker 2: So for members of Congress, this was just sop standard

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Speaker 2: operating procedures. CIA had not inherently crossed the line by

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Speaker 2: conducting these experiments in secret by lying to the scientists

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Speaker 2: or the researchers. Instead, they crossed the line when they

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Speaker 2: didn't inform volunteers. This was also you know, this is

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Speaker 2: taking place right after Watergate, so distrust of the government

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Speaker 2: is at an even higher mainstream level than before. So

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Speaker 2: in his opening remarks during the hearing, Senator Edward Kennedy

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Speaker 2: described mk ULTRA as on.

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Speaker 5: Ex time softastic of experimentation program which included co art

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Speaker 5: drug tests and on on wedding citiziens at all social

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Speaker 5: levels law Native Americans and foreign Several of these tests

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Speaker 5: include the administration of that last day to un wedding

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Speaker 5: subjects on social situations. What I did there, you guys,

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Speaker 5: was Fred Gwen from pet Cemetery. That's that's the closest

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Speaker 5: thing I can.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 5: In the trailer for the new one, they don't say

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Speaker 5: the soil is sour anymore, they say the soil is bad.

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Speaker 5: I was like, oh, I heard it's really good. Not

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Speaker 5: the soil, but it's quite good, all right.

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Speaker 2: So what he means by this? And off off air,

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Speaker 2: Matt and I did try a little bit. I no, no,

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Speaker 2: as long as you didn't feel bullied, we were. It

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Speaker 2: was just a great voice.

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Speaker 5: I didn't feel bullied at all. I never feel bullied

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Speaker 5: by you guys. I always feel big.

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Speaker 3: Up you guys.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think you're the new Kennedy for for

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Speaker 2: the show. But but he's making a good point. Despite

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Speaker 2: despite our compatriots mallifluous and beautiful reenactment, there, Kennedy was

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Speaker 2: saying stuff that had substance and presented a clear and

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Speaker 2: present ethical danger. There were not medical professionals around for

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Speaker 2: a lot of this dosing. The CIA agents doing this

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Speaker 2: and their proxies were not doctors. Often at least one

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Speaker 2: person went to the hospital, probably more. Two people definitely died,

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Speaker 2: a fellow named Frank Olsen who was involved as a

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Speaker 2: non civilian, and Harold Blauer. But the testing continued, and

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Speaker 2: when we say two people died, we mean at least

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Speaker 2: two people. We really don't know how many deaths or

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Speaker 2: injuries can be attributed to this.

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Speaker 3: Program, because it's also hard to really tell how long

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Speaker 3: the program had been going on outside of the official numbers,

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Speaker 3: and how long it continued.

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Speaker 2: Right right, Just the stuff we know, again is from

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Speaker 2: that Freedom of Information Act. We'll explore this in a second,

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Speaker 2: but let's walk through what they were actually doing with

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Speaker 2: MK ULTRA. They weren't. In many ways. It was as

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Speaker 2: dirty as the Tuskegee experiments. Some people may see even

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Speaker 2: a little worse. They went to twelve hospitals that we

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Speaker 2: know of, and testing was testing was conducted on patients

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Speaker 2: who had various forms of terminal cancer. They were they

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Speaker 2: were not coming back. It was time to make your peace,

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Speaker 2: not time to pursue other options of treatment. And this

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Speaker 2: meant that we can we can assume safely that whatever

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Speaker 2: those experiments the cancer patients were part of were doing

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Speaker 2: to the human body, it was going to have long

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Speaker 2: term detrimental, possibly fatal effects. And the deal was simple.

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Speaker 2: It was a devil's bargain. The CIA's proxies, you know,

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Speaker 2: doctor uh every man good name comes in from the

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Speaker 2: Society of regular business and says, I will pay the

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Speaker 2: medical bills for these terminal cancer patients. And all we

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Speaker 2: have to do, you know, in addition to all the

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Speaker 2: top notch medicines were already exposing them to, we'll expose

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Speaker 2: them to this other experimental medicine and.

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Speaker 3: Then we'll close the doors and turn off the lights

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Speaker 3: and just see what happens.

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Speaker 2: Right, And they may have glowed because we're talking radiation exposure, yeah,

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Speaker 2: for some of the terminal patients. But yeah, like.

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Speaker 3: Any something that was probably going to kill them harder

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Speaker 3: or faster than the cancer.

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Speaker 2: And in the in the conducted experiments in prisons as well,

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Speaker 2: and this one, for some reason bothers me even more so.

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Speaker 5: In the prisons, the mentally ill, specifically described as criminal

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Speaker 5: sexual psychopaths, are also subjected to experiments. They are considered expendable.

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Speaker 5: I guess in somewhere maybe there was there was a

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Speaker 5: benefit to their mental state, like they were trying to

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Speaker 5: like trigger them even further to break.

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Speaker 2: That's a good question.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know. So while prisoners were informed of

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Speaker 5: the broad strokes of one experiment or another or another,

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Speaker 5: and while they some of you know, they did volunteer,

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Speaker 5: they did so when they were promised access to their

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Speaker 5: addictive drug of choice, right, which, as we know from

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Speaker 5: even just watching films, you know, a junkie will do

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Speaker 5: just about anything for their fix.

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Speaker 2: Right, Is it consent if a person who is in

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Speaker 2: the depths of heroin or opioid withdrawal is offered opium

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Speaker 2: or heroin? Like are they saying yes, I don't know.

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Speaker 5: So it's users at the very least. Yeah, absolutely, and

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Speaker 5: manipulative and borderline not borderline, definitely unethical.

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Speaker 2: It's brea.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, in any kind of controlled medical test or any

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Speaker 5: kind of clinical that would you know, you can't that

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Speaker 5: that throws your date out the window. That's not right.

439
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 2: That's why you don't see more of those situations in

440
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 2: studies on you know, the fad diets or social media usage.

441
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 3: So so let's get to let's get to some of

442
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 3: the things that we put in place after World War Two.

443
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: Right, the Cold War is not counted as a war,

444
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 2: so these things are not counted as war crimes. However,

445
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 2: they clearly violate the Nuremberg Code, which the entire imperfect

446
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 2: world approves of. Yeah. As a result of the findings,

447
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 2: President Ford and then President Carter and then President Reagan

448
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 2: all issued orders banning all future human experimentation without consent

449
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 2: by government agencies and even kicked back a little bit

450
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 2: of a little bit of make it Right money to

451
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 2: the people that were inarguably harmed by the test. Just

452
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: the people that were inarguably demonstrably harmed. A lot of

453
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 2: people fell through the cracks. This sounds like it could

454
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 2: be an expose a in the halls of Congress, right,

455
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 2: Just the wheels of justice grind slow but exceedingly fine,

456
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 2: a very go team moment, right, Yeah, Wavior Flags feel

457
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 2: proud to be an American. But the problem is that

458
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 2: this only scratches the surface. That's why this is mk

459
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 2: ultra one oh one. You see, before that article comes

460
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: out in the New York Times, and years before the

461
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 2: congressional hearings, the CIA has an internal purge In nineteen

462
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: seventy three, when you Matt earlier said it officially wrapped up.

463
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 2: The CIA director at the time, Richard Helms, ordered all

464
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 2: of the documents related to anything associated with any mk

465
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: Ultra program to be destroyed. This means, even today, we

466
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 2: still do not know everything that happened, and the hints

467
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 2: that we get, the little tantalizing scraps, are even more disturbing.

468
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 3: It's a stinking shame, and we're going to learn about

469
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 3: it right after a word from our sponsor.

470
00:26:54,880 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 2: Here's where it gets crazy. Yep, all right, crazy, double crazy.

471
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 2: We know that there were other experiments, we don't know

472
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: how many, and we don't know the details of all

473
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: of them. But here's just a whitman sampler of the

474
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 2: sort of stuff that they involved. Electro shock, harassment techniques

475
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 2: for quote offensive use, gas propelled sprays and aerosols, has

476
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 2: assassination delivery systems. This begins to get wrapped up in

477
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: because these committees were also looking at stuff like the

478
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 2: CIA attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro.

479
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, can we talked about what you said, harassment

480
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 3: techniques for offensive use right really fast?

481
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 2: Yeah?

482
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, A lot of times or maybe you've heard of

483
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 3: this before something called gang stocking some of these other things.

484
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 3: I can imagine that's where a lot of those feelings arise,

485
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 3: or the beliefs that something like that is happening to you,

486
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 3: just from that one little thing, the concept that the

487
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 3: CIA was truly researching at one point harassment techniques for

488
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 3: offensive years.

489
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: They really were doing it.

490
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 3: No.

491
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 2: I know that gangs talking can sometimes sound a little

492
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: bit tinfoil hattie for people, but they they were purposely

493
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 2: doing it. It's the idea is to push someone further

494
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 2: and further into a paranoid state.

495
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 3: Yes, and it works, all right. So scientists were also

496
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 3: greenlit for research involving radiation and paramilitary devices and materials.

497
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 3: Isn't that nice looking into radiation? And yeah, that's good.

498
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 2: And going back to your point NOO that you said

499
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 2: about the vague language here paramilitary devices and materials. Mm hmm,

500
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: that's pretty It could be anything.

501
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, it could be those crazy Air Force coffee mugs

502
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 5: that are so expensive. Have you heard about these? There

503
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 5: was apparently a line item in the Air Force budget

504
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 5: for like one hundred and thousands of dollars for these

505
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 5: like high tech coffee mugs that had built in warmers. Wow,

506
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 5: and apparently they're very fragile, so they had to replace them.

507
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 5: A bunch of people would drop them on the planes

508
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 5: and they would just shatter and then so that you know,

509
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 5: waste not why not? Uncle Sam?

510
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 2: Oh boy, it's like that old story about the three

511
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 2: hundred dollars hammer. Right.

512
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

513
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: So what we do know is that at least one

514
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 2: hundred and forty nine of the mk ultris subprojects had

515
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 2: some kind of connection with research into behavioral modification, drug

516
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: acquisition and testing or administering drugs on the sly.

517
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 3: Yeah for for for all kinds of things, including what

518
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 3: you said before again, ben assassination delivery systems.

519
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 5: What does that mean?

520
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 3: Assassination delivery system?

521
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 5: Does that mean like a gun?

522
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 2: Well that would be one.

523
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 3: Or you know some some type of or yeah, yeah,

524
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 3: like you combine them.

525
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 5: But I love the I love the the banality of that,

526
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 5: you know what I mean?

527
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, apps asolutely. They do have some poetic language in here,

528
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: though we have lists of different projects. They had six

529
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 2: projects that were intentionally meant to test unwitting subjects, eight

530
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 2: with hypnosis. Two of those used drugs, seven that just

531
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 2: used drugs. Four Here's the poetry that used the quote

532
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: magicians art.

533
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 5: Ooh, the magician's arm art.

534
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 3: Al right, well, and specifically in that one, it's about

535
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 3: finding a way to get probably a chemical into someone's

536
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 3: drink or into someone's food, or into someone's body in

537
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 3: a way that they don't know.

538
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 2: Right, this is dangerous, is it?

539
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 3: Through a magician's art.

540
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: Through a magician's art like close magic? Yeah, misdirection.

541
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 5: You just got darted totally did.

542
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: Which you know, just from the use of that phrase.

543
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: I don't mean to belittle the horrible things that happened,

544
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: but just from the use of that phrase, doesn't it

545
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,479
Speaker 2: sound like one of the CIA people really, which is

546
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 2: just a repressed magician.

547
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, fan of magic, that's right. Wouldn't let him in

548
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 3: the magic Castle? What is it called? The magicians Castle?

549
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 5: The Magic Castle? The magic Yeah, I have yet to

550
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 5: go myself. You have to be invited. There's there's there

551
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 5: there is a loophole where you can go and get

552
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 5: a commemorative photo or something like that, like one one day. Yeah,

553
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 5: it's like a sort of like open house at elementary school.

554
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 4: You know.

555
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: Lauren Vogelbaum with I know she did.

556
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 5: She had an end Yeah, with some kind of fancy actor.

557
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: I don't trust stage magicians. It's one of my few prejudices.

558
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 5: Well, do you recall that our buddy Russell Targ had

559
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 5: fascination with stage magic y, Yeah, which I found very

560
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 5: interesting considering that a lot of people, you know, attribute

561
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 5: some of the techniques of stage magicians to cold reading

562
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 5: and choice to fake being psychic. I'm not. I don't

563
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 5: think that's what Targ is about, but I do think

564
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 5: it's interesting that he his mind kind of started going

565
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 5: down that path through a false way, and then ultimately

566
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 5: he found its way to a more true way what

567
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 5: he perceives what he perceives to be a.

568
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: It's true, it's it's interesting. Not to derail too much,

569
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,719
Speaker 2: but I you know, how you can be intellectually aware

570
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 2: of something but then emotionally one hundred and eighty degrees

571
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,479
Speaker 2: opposed to it or vice versa. Right, Like, Intellectually I

572
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 2: understand that stage magicians are normal human beings who get

573
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: up and have jobs and are not evil or you know,

574
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: like I have all these stereotypes about them. Emotionally, I

575
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 2: can't get over it. Yeah, yeah, I feel monstrous about it,

576
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 2: and I apologize to any stage magicians listening to the show.

577
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 2: Please don't send me videos of your stuff.

578
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.

579
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 5: So you're like the whole, the whole category, everything about it.

580
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 5: I don't know why you were never like David Copperfield

581
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 5: as a kid.

582
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 2: I'm okay with mentalists, you know, like Darren Brown for

583
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 2: some reason is okay. And it's like pull out the

584
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: cards and they make me tap on stuff. It's something

585
00:32:59,000 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: must have happened to me.

586
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 5: You don't like people to ask you to do stuff either, Ben, who.

587
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: Likes people to ask? If it's all in the way

588
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 2: you ask, that's all.

589
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,959
Speaker 5: The way you ask, that's true. I agree. But if

590
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 5: I just walked up to you and I said, Ben,

591
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 5: tap on this deck of cards with two fingers, you

592
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 5: would probably punch me.

593
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: I would punch you because now I would know where's

594
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: coming from.

595
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 5: You look at me a skance though. I'll tell you that.

596
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 3: Yes, it would be would be very, very distrusting in

597
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 3: the very least you touch it with three fingers.

598
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 2: It would be like if it would be like if somebody,

599
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: if mad or I came up to you and we're like,

600
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: hey man, open this bag and we had hidden a

601
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 2: bird in there, Like that's not cool.

602
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 5: If you guys can see me out there and podcasts.

603
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 5: Then my eyes just went wide like a couple of

604
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 5: would never do the saucers. I have nightmare sometimes if

605
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 5: there's a bird under my covers.

606
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:45,239
Speaker 2: Dude, we will never do that.

607
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 5: Thanks, guys.

608
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 3: I don't want to freak you out.

609
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 5: Did a bird hurt me? Is that what you're gonna ask?

610
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 3: Don't look under the desk right now?

611
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 2: Okay, that's this.

612
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 3: Is being This is mean, and I'm sorry your face

613
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 3: was so genuine and scared that I'm sorry. I feel

614
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 3: like the CIA, right.

615
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 5: Okay, it's okay, man, And that's what we just did.

616
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 5: We did a thought experiment to let you know how

617
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 5: the CIA must feel after being taken a task for

618
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 5: a lot of this stuff.

619
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 2: And how quickly it got out of control because they

620
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 2: were also dosing one another at some point.

621
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 5: That was just for funzies, like it's smitty, he's tripping balls.

622
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: What is your stage magic?

623
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 5: Now?

624
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 3: Oh wait, he's going outside on the balcony.

625
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 2: Oh shoot, oh that's interesting.

626
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 5: The other one bites the dust. That of course happened, right, yes.

627
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 2: Yes, Frank Olsen specifically, he was a biochemist at a

628
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: lab that was conducting those LSD experiments for the government,

629
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: and the story is still very murky today. I think

630
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 2: it's mentioned in that Netflix series Wormwood. So according to

631
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: uncle Sam Olsen knowingly ingested LSD and then because it

632
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 2: affected him in an adverse way, he eventually took his

633
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 2: own life by jumping from his hotel room on the

634
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 2: thirteenth floor of a New York City hotel, and you know,

635
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,919
Speaker 2: he died. However, his family and numerous people don't buy

636
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 2: the story. They say that he was dosed without his consent,

637
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 2: and that he would never have committed suicide, that he

638
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 2: did not have nascent suicidal tendencies. They say he was

639
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 2: murdered because he knew too much. The US government gave

640
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 2: them a settlement of seventy five hundred thousand dollars in

641
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 2: set nineteen seventy five. But yeah, wait, wait, wait, though

642
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four, his body's exhumed and a coroner sees

643
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 2: head injuries and he says, wait, Olsen was knocked unconscious

644
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: before his death.

645
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 5: How do you.

646
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 3: Figure that out that long afterwards after you fell from

647
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 3: a really high height.

648
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 2: I don't know.

649
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 3: I totally hear you. That is crazy, though, right.

650
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it's it's strange and questions for me. And

651
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 2: it's also I hate to say, man, but it's extremely

652
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 2: possible that he was killed and was a cover up

653
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 2: because ULTRA is the top above top secret level classification

654
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 2: for projects at this time. And this leads us to,

655
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 2: you know, the big question. Surely one day there's going

656
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 2: to be justice. Ah, not so fast.

657
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of the sciences involved honestly had no

658
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 3: idea what they were actually doing. That they were working

659
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 3: for the CIA. They knew they were administering something. They

660
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 3: knew they were maybe doing it a little surreptitiously, but

661
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 3: they didn't understand that it was this kind of this

662
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 3: kind of thing, right, And they, along with the CIA assets,

663
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 3: are illegally immune at this point from consequences of their actions.

664
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 3: Can you believe that that's that's true? Seriously?

665
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 2: Yep, they're immune.

666
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 3: And here's why. There are two lawsuits related to MK

667
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 3: ULTRA that made it as far as the freaking Supreme Court,

668
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 3: and the Court found in favor of the government twice

669
00:36:58,400 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 3: both times.

670
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Nineteen eighty five, the Court held, in a case

671
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 2: called CIA versus Sims that the names of institutions and

672
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 2: researchers who participated and project in Kultra were exempt from

673
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 2: revelation under the Freedom of Information Act because the CIA

674
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 2: needed to protect its intelligent sources. Again national security.

675
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 3: Ah, just throw that up anywhere and you're good to go.

676
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 3: And then also in nineteen eighty seven, here's a case

677
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 3: called the United States versus Stanley, and the court held

678
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 3: that this serviceman, someone who was working with them, who

679
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 3: had volunteered for a chemical weapons experiment, let's call it

680
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 3: that a chemical weapons experiment. This guy was actually tested

681
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 3: with LSD and this guy was barred from bringing a

682
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 3: claim under this thing called the Federal Tort Claims Act.

683
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 3: And what is a tort ben A.

684
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 2: Tort is essentially when someone does something bad to you,

685
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 2: a bad action, so okay, Tort law is the area

686
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 2: of law that protects people from bad acts of others.

687
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: Historically speaking, citizens in the US cannot sue states because

688
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 2: of the concept of sovereign immunity. Can't just sue the

689
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 2: state because there are very specific sets of constraints or

690
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 2: situations where you can do that. And the FTCA or

691
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 2: Federal Tort Claims Act, so nineteen forty six federal statute

692
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: that allows private parties to sue the US in a

693
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 2: federal court for most of these torque cases committed by

694
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: people acting on behalf of the US. It's a little

695
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: bit of legal ease, but that's it. He was Stanley

696
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 2: was attempting to attempting to sue, but it was kicked

697
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 2: out because it was not Because he was, he was

698
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 2: not allowed to use the Federal Tort Claims Act.

699
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 3: Okay, that makes sense.

700
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 2: National security, national security.

701
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,959
Speaker 3: National security twice in a row, eighty five and eighty seven.

702
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,760
Speaker 2: So that's almost where we are now today. Mk Ultra

703
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: is firmly enshrined in the world of conspiracy lore. There

704
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 2: are fictional programs like Wormwood. There are documentaries. There are

705
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:13,919
Speaker 2: books ranging from fiction inspired by this to maybe more

706
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 2: fringe research that the authors will tell you is true.

707
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: Ad all sorts of films that explore aspects of the

708
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 2: program or use it as a jumping off point for speculation.

709
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 2: But like any piece of folklore, and I would argue

710
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 2: there's a lot of folklore a on mk Ultra, there

711
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 2: is an inarguable grain of truth inside the story, and

712
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 2: that leaves us with some burning, disturbing questions. First, what happened?

713
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 2: That's the easiest question. To answer.

714
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 3: We will not know, We cannot know, we will never know, We.

715
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 5: Refuse to know. We shut our eyes and ears to

716
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 5: the truth. Yes, well, no, not that first.

717
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 3: The first two we just can't. We can't know because

718
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 3: it's going to be sealed.

719
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 2: Because they destroyed thousands and thousands of things.

720
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 3: And when I say sealed, I mean in a tomb

721
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 3: essentially of its own burnt up carbon.

722
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in We're in deathbed confession territory. That's where

723
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 2: that's that those will be the best sources of This

724
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 2: second question is a little depressing. Did any of this

725
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 2: stuff actually work?

726
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, some of it, some of it obviously.

727
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 2: Most of it didn't, but some of it did. Some

728
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 2: of it did, right.

729
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, And again we're not really sure what we'll find

730
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,959
Speaker 3: unless some of those experiments that they were doing are

731
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 3: just redone a lot. But I guess, I guess. The

732
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 3: big thing is that they never at least two our understanding,

733
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 3: they never got a true truth serum as close as

734
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 3: scope I mean, and some of these other things can

735
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 3: get you. There's no true injectable that we know of.

736
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 2: Now, I'll tell you everything. My social security one of

737
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 2: my feet is larger than the other it makes me uncomfortable.

738
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 3: I er uh, I am Edward Kennedy, and uh, some

739
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 3: of the biggest drugs that I've been doing lately are

740
00:40:59,239 --> 00:40:59,760
Speaker 3: the LSD.

741
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 5: The LSD. You also kind of got a little Peter Griffin.

742
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 3: I got Peter. Yeah.

743
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 2: So's it's true. They never found that silver bullet truth serum.

744
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 2: So far as we know, the data they got was

745
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 2: of limited use if you think about it, because they

746
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 2: didn't have solid methodology in a lot of these experiments,

747
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 2: they did not have ideal monitoring conditions, and at some

748
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 2: point they just had a Lord of the fly situation,

749
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Big Think has a great

750
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 2: quote on this. They argue that the program may ultimately

751
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: have been counterproductive. They say MK Ultra might have been

752
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 2: counterproductive because the counterculture was given access to LSD through

753
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 2: these experiments. That's true, and they proceeded to run in

754
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 2: the opposite direction with it. John Lennon went so far

755
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 2: as to mock the CIA in an interview, noting they

756
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 2: must always remember to thank the CIA and the Army

757
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 2: for LSD. That's what people forget. Oh my god, it's

758
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: young Michael Caine. I'm sorry they invented at a state

759
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 2: to control people, and what they did was give us freedom.

760
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 3: Wow, Okay, all right, Lenin, all right, John Lennon, I.

761
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 2: Mean that's that's Michael Kaine. Michael, but yeah, he's making

762
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 2: a good point, right.

763
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, they gave us LSD, But they didn't give us

764
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 3: what what did what didn't they give us? They didn't

765
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 3: give us shrooms? True? They let's maybe they did. I

766
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 3: don't know.

767
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. They didn't. They they didn't disclose

768
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,720
Speaker 2: a lot of the findings. And that's that's the scariest question.

769
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 2: Most importantly, what's happening now? You have to ask yourself

770
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 2: listening to this, would a government genuinely completely stop this

771
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 2: sort of research if an aspect of it worked. Has

772
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 2: there at any point, and forget forget the relatively young

773
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 2: experiment known as the United States, in the course of

774
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 2: human civilization, has there been something that was an amazing

775
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: technique or technology that gave one empire the edge over

776
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 2: the others that they stopped pursuing. I'm not being rhetorical.

777
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 2: I would love to hear of one example.

778
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, send us your example, and.

779
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 1: That's our classic episode for this evening. We can't wait

780
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts. We try to be easy to

781
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: find online.

782
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 5: Find this in the handle conspiracy stuff, where we exist

783
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,879
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784
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 5: conspiracy Stuff.

785
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:33,040
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786
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:34,800
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787
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,399
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788
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,080
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789
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,560
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790
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,760
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791
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:49,440
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792
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,360
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