1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff mom never told you. From house to folks, 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: not color. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: and I'm Kristen, and you guys might have taken note 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: of the fact that Kristen and I have been, you know, 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: encouraging you to go watch Orange Is the New Black 6 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: on Netflix. It is a really incredible, compelling show full 7 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: of really really colorful characters who have pretty incredible and 8 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: again compelling backstories. And when we put out the call 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: to get episodes suggestions, one of the top requested episodes 10 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: was to take a real look at real women in prison. Yeah, 11 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: so here you go, contest winner, Orange Is the New 12 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: Black versus real life women's prisons. And we're gonna have 13 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: to give just summaries of all of these different facets 14 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:10,199 Speaker 1: because there are so many different angles to what life 15 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: is really like in women's prisons and who are those women, 16 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: those very real women who are incarcerated. Um, but we're 17 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: going to do the best we can to give you 18 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: a comprehensive snapshot of what life is like in there, 19 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: and just for a snapshot as well of Orange as 20 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,199 Speaker 1: the New Black. It was created by Genji Cohen, who 21 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:36,559 Speaker 1: also created the show Weeds, which I'm sure is a 22 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: favorite among some listeners as well, And it's based on 23 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: a memoir by the same name by a woman named 24 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: Piper Kerman, who is Piper Chapman in the show. She's 25 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: the main character. Yeah, and now Piper Kerman serves as 26 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: a communications consultant for a firm in New York and 27 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: she also volunteers for the Women's Prison Association and has 28 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: since joined their board. Yeah, it's pretty cool how she 29 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: has parlayed her experience the year that she spent in prison, 30 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: not just to write a best selling memoir and make 31 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: some cash off of turning it into a show, but 32 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: to really use her platform, her privileged platform, in a 33 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: lot of ways to highlight the just horrific conditions that 34 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: women are living in in prison and also the injustice, 35 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: the rampant injustice that is our criminal justice system that 36 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: is keeping not only women in prison, but also getting them, 37 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 1: keeping them in this cycle of incarceration. So let's first 38 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,119 Speaker 1: talk about the show. Let's talk about some things. Oh, 39 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: and I guess we should say spoiler alerts ahead. If 40 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: you have not seen Orange as the New Black, you 41 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: might want to watch it before you listen to this 42 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: podcast because we're gonna share some is not too many 43 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: crazy spoilers, but but still we're gonna fill you in 44 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: on the show. Yeah. Um, well, so let's start by 45 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: talking about what kind of things the show got right, 46 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: because I know, you know, as I'm watching it, I'm like, God, 47 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: some of these things seem terrible. Some of them seem 48 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: not so bad. For instance, a lot of the women 49 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: have great camaraderie. Like, how accurate is this stuff? And 50 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 1: so this is coming from um a piece that Jeff 51 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: Smith wrote. He's a former Missouri state senator who resigned 52 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: his seat after pleading guilty to two counts of obstruction 53 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: of justice, and he spent a year in federal prison. 54 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: And we're also getting some of this information from a 55 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: story that appeared on the cut from New York Magazine. 56 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: They sat down with five formally incarcerated women and talked 57 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: about Orange is the New Black and how accurate these 58 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: portrayals of women and prisoners are. Yeah, And so some 59 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: of the general things that it gets right is that 60 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: small things have huge consequence. Is for instance, Smith talks 61 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: about how one of his main strategies to stay safe, 62 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: as he writes, because he weighs only a hundred and 63 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: seventeen pounds. He's a pretty small guy. Was to quietly 64 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: give stolen tomatoes and onions to certain powerful inmates, which 65 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: effectively helped me build critical alliances. Because what what might 66 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: seem like minor infractions or social awkwardness kinds of things 67 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: really do have outsized consequences. For instance, in the show, 68 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: when you have read essentially starving Piper, he he wasn't 69 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 1: at all surprised by that. He was like, something like 70 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: that could absolutely happen. And as a side note with 71 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: the whole starvation thing, courts have upheld prisons serving neutral 72 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: OAF as punishment and neutral OAF for people who are 73 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: not acquainted with it. It's the stuff that Piper was 74 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: served when she went into the special housing unit. The shoe, 75 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: which is essentially solitary confinement and neutral loaf is what 76 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: it sounds like. It's a loaf of stuff that doesn't 77 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: taste very good, but contains all of the nutrients necessary 78 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: to keep you alive. So it's not quite starving someone 79 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: to death. Not yeah, not quite. Another thing that is 80 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: accurate is just the fact of having to to kind 81 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: of make do with what you have creating something out 82 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: of very little. For instance, the kool Aid lip gloss 83 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: in the show. I think they made signs at one 84 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: point and they didn't have paint, so I think they 85 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: used kool Aid for that too. But also using in 86 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: the show, they've used Maxi pads as shoes or as 87 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: masks for when everybody got sick. Yeah. And then one 88 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: big question that a lot of people had was what 89 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: about the sexual tension, because the way that I described 90 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: Orange as the New Black in my notes is that 91 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: it kind of makes it look like women's prison is 92 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: a hyper sexual lesbian summer camp with really means psychopathic 93 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: counselors um. And the ex prisoners said, yeah, you know, 94 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:19,239 Speaker 1: of course people have urges. But the women also pointed 95 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: out that the rampant sexy times that you see on 96 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: Orange as the New Black are overblown a bit. It's 97 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: not as common for women to be constantly having sex 98 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: with other women in prison or jail, right, And they 99 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: did get it right. Also that the prison administrators really 100 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: do not care about the women as people, and that 101 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: discipline can be pretty arbitrary. Also that visitation can be 102 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: depressing when when relatives come to visit you in prison, Yeah, 103 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: on the one hand, you have Pipers family and friends 104 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: coming and it's and it's usually pretty awful because they 105 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: don't want to It's like they're in denial that she's 106 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: actually in prison, or they're being too gawky about it. 107 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: It's like one or the other. And then you have 108 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: instances in the show like when um, Diana's mom is 109 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: sitting there and she's so angry and just trying to 110 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: get information from her boyfriend as to whether or not 111 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: he's been sleeping around and just all of the you know, 112 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: those those two worlds colliding. Um, so understandably visitation, when 113 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: the outside meets the inside, it can certainly breed some discontent. Yeah, 114 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: and then um, the whole issue. There was one episode 115 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: of Orange just the New Black where um, one woman 116 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: big Boo, is upset that her kind of ex girlfriend 117 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: is is leaving, And so there's this whole issue of 118 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: antagonizing people before they are set to be released in 119 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: order to try to get them stuck in jail for longer. Yeah, 120 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: and in that case, that someone wanting to keep someone 121 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: that they love from leaving. But a lot of times 122 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: that's what happens with enemies. You've got to watch out 123 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: if you're about to leave, and if you've made an enemy, Uh, 124 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: there's a good chance that someone might try to sabotage 125 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: your release. And speaking of release, and this is something 126 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: we'll talk about in more detail, recidivism happens a lot 127 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: when spoiler this is a big spoiler when we see 128 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: Tasty come back after she's released and she talks about 129 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: how it was basically impossible for her to stay out 130 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: of prison. She couldn't do it because she had absolutely 131 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: no resources. And that is very true to life, because 132 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: ex prisoners are given little to no resources to get 133 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: back on their feet, especially if they're felons. Well, so, 134 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: what does the show get wrong? What are they gloss 135 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: over or not portray accurately. One of those things is 136 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: the consequences for talking too much, snitching and crossing racial 137 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: lines are actually much harsher than portrayed in the show. Yeah, 138 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: for instance, when everybody listens to Piper's boyfriend on the 139 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: This American Life type show talking about what she tells 140 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: him about her experience in prison and all of the 141 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: different people who she's essentially snitching on, and everyone's hearing this, 142 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: the retribution for that probably would have been much harsher 143 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: in a real women's prison. And even though with race, 144 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: even though it's very segregated in the show, there's still 145 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: a lot more mixing and crossing of those racial lines 146 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: than there probably would be. Yeah, and the whole nudity issue, 147 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the show opens with shower scenes. Um, 148 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: the in actuality, there's a lot less nudity in the 149 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: showers because you have to just kind of watch your 150 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: back you might get assaulted. Yeah, and that's more true 151 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: probably in male prisons. That was thing that Jeff Smith 152 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: pointed out in terms of listen, you're really gonna want 153 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: to be naked for as short of a time as possible. Um. So, essentially, 154 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: what the show gets wrong is that the worse is 155 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: so much worse. The bad stuff is so bad, and 156 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: so you know, I think that if they were to 157 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: portray it as it actually is, the show would almost 158 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: be unwatchable. Yeah. But on the bright side, one thing 159 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: that I found that is true in prison becoming more 160 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: true in prison is that yoga is practiced in a 161 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: growing number of prisons. Yeah, because it is a great 162 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: way to be active and also to relax, and it's cheap. 163 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: A lot of times the people who come into the 164 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: prisons to teach the yoga classes are volunteers. Yeah. The 165 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: New York Times did a whole piece on this and 166 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: talked about how even in men's prison, some of the 167 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: guys were really hesitant to go and do something they 168 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: might have seen as not being really tough, but that 169 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: anecdotally a lot of them report really positive benefits from 170 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: a regular yoga practice. So there are yoga jains in prison. 171 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: But then on a download again, because really from here 172 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: on it kind of all the information that we're going 173 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: to offer does get a bit dismal. Um, we should 174 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: talk about trans people in prison, because we have Sophia Burst, 175 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: who has played so wonderfully by Laverne Cox, who portrays 176 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: male to female transgender person who had undergone gender reassignment 177 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: surgery and later is denied hormone treatment and is having 178 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: to deal with the physical and emotional repercussions from that. 179 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: And the situation for trans people who are incarcerated is 180 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: really dismal, right, And I think it's reflected pretty well 181 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: in that issue that you just mentioned of having her 182 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: hormone therapy denied. In reality, sevent of trans people in 183 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: prison are denied hormone treatment and often end up in 184 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: prison according to their birth sex, which can lead to 185 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: a huge amount of severe harassment. Yeah, especially for male 186 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: to female pre gender reassignment surgery prisoners who might be 187 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: put in a men's prison, that risk of harassment definitely 188 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: goes up. Um and just a risk for going to jail, 189 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: for being arrested, going to jail, being imprisoned is higher 190 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: for trans people compared to the rest of the population. 191 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: A report from the National Center for Transgender Equality found 192 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: that sixteen percent of trans people surveyed had spent at 193 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: least some jail time or prison time because of things 194 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: like unemployment. Because the unemployment rate is twice that of 195 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: the general population, which is often related to harassment, which 196 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: is related to being trans gender, and so because of 197 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: that high rate of unemployment, they might turn to things 198 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: like sex work, drug trades, and also be homeless. Right 199 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: and sixteen Also another sixteen six of the respondents who 200 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: had been in prison or jail reported being physically assaulted. 201 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: Fifteen percent of responds who had been in jail reported 202 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: they had been sexually assaulted. So, in a way, the 203 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: Orange is the new Black character Sophia has I mean 204 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: aside from the hormone treatment issue, that portrays the situation 205 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: for a trans prisoner and almost the best possible scenario, right. 206 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: I mean, she is still like, you know, verbally attacked, 207 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: and she still deals with a whole lot of people, 208 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: you know, just saying terrible things to her. But she 209 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 1: is not in a men's prison, right And the a 210 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: side note, her hair salon probably wouldn't exist in a 211 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: real woman's love her hair and the show, Like I swear, 212 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: I just watched an episode last night. She's wearing this 213 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: like headband and her hair is all braated, and I 214 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: just I was like, I wish I could do that 215 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: to my hair, but it's not thick enough anyway. Total tangent. 216 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: But another nightmare situation that we've already mentioned is the 217 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: special housing unit the Shoe, the solitary confinement where Piper goes. 218 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: When she was dancing a little provocatively and Sam Healy 219 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: got a little upset with her, This is where inmates 220 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: are separated from the rest of the population and they 221 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: have very limited activity. Yeah, and about five point seven 222 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: percent of federal prisoners, around ten thousand people are in 223 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: the Shoe at any given moment, and with the solitary conditions. 224 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: Some people have argued that the shoe constitutes a specific 225 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: form of torture. Yeah, I mean, I I can't imagine. 226 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: I mean, and and in the show, Piper is only 227 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: in there for about forty eight hours, but I mean, 228 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: she was already you know, her character is already losing it. 229 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: I can't, I can't imagine. Well, and then that relates 230 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: back to the whole issue of arbitrary discipline, where you 231 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: don't know exactly what you have to do to stay 232 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: out of the shoe. If you simply cross someone in 233 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: a way that they don't like, then you might be 234 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: thrown in there. And I mean, and who's to say 235 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: how long? You know, how long that you'll be in there? Right? Um, 236 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: So let's take a deeper look away from Orange Is 237 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: the New Black the show and into women's prisons. And 238 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: I cannot recommend the article that we found over at 239 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: Bitch Magazine that did just this. It didn't end depth 240 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: look at how Orange Is the New Black compares to 241 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: real life. And uh, this is a major source for 242 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: a lot of these statistics that we're gonna be tossing out. 243 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: So for an idea of just how bad the situation 244 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: is in terms of imprisonment in the United States. The 245 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,119 Speaker 1: US is home to five percent of the world's population 246 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: and twenty five per cent of the world's prison and 247 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: mates and women are this country's fastest growing prison population. 248 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: And according to the Sentencing Project, the number of women 249 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: incarcerated in the US increased by six hundred and forty 250 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: six percent between nineteen eighty and that's from fifteen thousand, 251 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: one d eighteen to one hundred and twelve thousand seven. Yeah, 252 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: and just to get even more specific, Oklahoma incarceraates more 253 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: women per capita than any other state. UM And if 254 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: we break it down racially, as of Black women have 255 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: been incarcerated at nearly three times the rate of white women, 256 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: and Hispanic women were incarcerated at one point six times 257 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: the rate of white women. And even though those are 258 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: huge disparities, it's actually narrowed as black women were incarcerated 259 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: at six times the rate as white women in two 260 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: thousand UM And and just for comparison, though black men 261 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: are imprisoned at about twenty two times the rate that 262 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: black women are, white men are incarcerated at ten times 263 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: the rate of white women and Latino men at sixteen 264 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: times the rate. So even though the imprisonment of women 265 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: has skyrocketed in the last twenty years, that's only a 266 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: small portion of the overall prison population, which is overwhelmingly 267 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 1: male and overwhelmingly black and Latino. And as we'll get 268 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: into a little bit deeper in just a second, I mean, 269 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: one of the consequences of, you know, having so many 270 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: people in prison at any given time is just the 271 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: economic hardships that people face, because once you've been to prison, 272 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: it's so hard to claw your way back up. And uh, 273 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: Dorothy Roberts, who's a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, 274 00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: writes in the u c l A Law Review that 275 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: me ask imprisonment of blacks and Latina's allows the state 276 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: to exert direct control over poorly educated, unskilled, and jobless 277 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: people who have no place in the market economy because 278 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: of racism. It also preserves a racial cast system that 279 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: civil rights reforms were supposed to abolish. And one of 280 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: the big issues specifically related to the female prison population, 281 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: and something that Piper Kerman, who is the real life 282 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: Piper Chapman, talks about a lot, is how a third 283 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: of prisoners are in for non violent drug offenses. In 284 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: other words, these women aren't going out killing, assaulting, robbing. 285 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: A lot of times it is as it's portrayed in 286 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: the show of women being caught in the wrong place 287 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: making poor decisions, mind you, but being in the wrong 288 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: place at the wrong time as part of drug deals 289 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: that might be going on, and the anishment for it, 290 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways is so much greater than 291 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: the crime because once you are in prison, even if 292 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: you get out, it's so hard to stay out. But 293 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: before we talk about life on the outside, we've got 294 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 1: to talk about two big issues facing women on the 295 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: inside that Orange is the New Black doesn't focus in 296 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: on too much, the first of which is sexual assault. Right, 297 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: sexual abuse by guards is much more likely to happen 298 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: in women's prisons, and one prison that is focused on 299 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: a lot is the Denver Women's Correctional Facility, which has 300 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: the highest sexual assault rate in the nation, with ten 301 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: point seven percent of inmates claiming sexual misconduct. And it's 302 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: should be noted that the national average is two point 303 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: four and that's at least of women who are even 304 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: reporting this, because there are plenty of offenders who are 305 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: scared to report sexual assault or rape for fear of retribution. 306 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: In and to give you an idea of how sexual 307 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: abuse by guards compares to the women's prison population versus 308 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: men's prisons, more than three fourths of all reported staff 309 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 1: sexual misconduct involves women victimized by male correctional officers. And 310 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: we see a little bit of that portrayal in Orange 311 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: is the New Black, but it it pales in comparison 312 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 1: to what these statistics indicate. And even before these women 313 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: end up in prison, a lot of times they have 314 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: already survived some kind of sexual abuse. For percent of 315 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: women in prison our survivors of physical and sexual abuse, right, 316 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: And when you think about what that does to people, 317 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of times that does put you 318 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: on a path where you are more susceptible to you know, 319 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: a lifestyle that involves drugs or or puts you in 320 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: you know, bad life situations. And so you know, if 321 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: you end up in prison and an abuse is what 322 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: you've known, and you just continue to be physically or 323 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: sexually abused, it can be hard to get past that. Yeah, 324 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: And and and thinking about the attendant mental health issues 325 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 1: that are coming into prison along with these women who 326 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: have already encountered so much hardship. Women in state prison 327 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: in two thousand four had a mental health problem. But 328 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: are those kinds of things being addressed while they're in 329 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,479 Speaker 1: jail while they're in prison, Probably not, because the system 330 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: is completely overworked and totally flawed, and there are not 331 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 1: dedicated resources to actually making sure that these women are 332 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: in good and healthy shape inside and out to be 333 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: prepared to live a life away from crime, right And 334 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: they honestly can't even get away from the prison culture 335 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: when they are giving birth. One and thirty three women 336 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: and in federal prisons are pregnant, and shackling these women 337 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: when they give birth is still legal in thirty two states. 338 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 1: And I mean this is a practice that the American 339 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: Medical Association calls medically hazardous and barbaric. Yeah, I was 340 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: astounded to learn that Illinois became the first state to 341 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: pass a law banning shackling during childbirth in nine nine. 342 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: Only then did we start saying, huh, there seems to 343 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 1: be something a little bit wrong with a woman who 344 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: was giving birth being handcuffed, her hands handcuffed to the 345 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: bed frame, and her feet being handcuffed to the bedframe, 346 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: And as soon as that baby is delivered, it is 347 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: probably taken away from her. There's one prisoner who recounted 348 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: in an ABC News story about this how she gave 349 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: birth with her hands, hands and feet handcuffed and wasn't 350 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: able to even contact her baby until seventy days later. 351 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: And she didn't her husband was not allowed in the 352 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 1: hospital room. It was just a guard there with her. 353 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: And even though Illinois, for instance, has outlawed shackling, it 354 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it's stopped. Because there's recently a four 355 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: point one million dollars settlement for eighty Chicago inmates who 356 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: are shackled between two thousand seven and two thousand ten, 357 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: it's still happening now. A two thousand seven anti shackling 358 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: policy was enacted in the Federal Bureau of Prisons, but 359 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: not it should be noted on a statewide level. And 360 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: even if you aren't pregnant in prison, an overwhelming majority 361 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: of the female prison population are also mothers. Around two 362 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: thirds of women are a hundred and twenty thousand women 363 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: in prison have children. And and what effects does this 364 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: have on the children? Not a good one, not surprisingly no. 365 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 1: And you know, the foster care system exploded in a 366 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: parallel fashion to the explosion of the prison population. So 367 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: the fact that, I mean, it's not just women, you know, 368 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: it's not just mothers, it's any any child whose parent 369 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: or parents have been in prison are more likely to 370 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: suffer negative effects. But yeah, the the foster more more 371 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: kids are going into foster care as more parents are 372 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 1: going in to prison. And so according to Pew Charitable 373 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 1: Trust report, one in every twenty eight children in the 374 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 1: United States has a parent in jail or prison. But 375 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 1: when you crystallize that down along racial lines, for African 376 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: American children, that number is one in nine and for 377 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: Hispanic children that's one in twenty eight, whereas one in 378 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: fifty seven White children have a parent in jail or prison. 379 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: And we should also note that on a population wide basis, 380 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 1: there are more women in prison with kids than men 381 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: in prison with kids. And a lot of times, because 382 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: women end up being the primary caregiver, having that mom 383 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: in prison does have such a debilitating effect a lot 384 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: of times for these kids. Not to say that if 385 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: you know a mom is involved in drug abuse or 386 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: is living in an unsafe environment, that that that's a 387 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: good thing for the kid, but it's but it's like 388 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: it's such it's yet another argument for rehabilitating rather than 389 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: just incarcerating. Right well, along these same lines, one horrifying 390 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: thing that came to light several months ago was the 391 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: issue of sterilization of women who give birth while they're 392 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: in prison. Um. This is coming from the Center for 393 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: Investigative Reporting. California prisons have sterilized nearly two and fifty 394 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: women over the past few decades, and nearly a hundred 395 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: and fifty of those were between two thousand and six 396 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: and ten. And they talked to oh B g U 397 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: I N. James Heinrich, who's in this California prison, and 398 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: his defense is kind of chilling. He says that spin 399 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: ending money to sterilize these women is better than spending 400 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: money on welfare for these unwanted children as they procreate more. Yeah, 401 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: and and you know, and so the the issue behind this, 402 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: the controversy, it's it's not like these women are saying, hey, 403 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: would you mind a lot of times this is its coercion, 404 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: it's forced, it's you know. This one woman's account was that, 405 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: you know, as she was getting closer and closer to 406 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: her due date, this Heinrich, this Dr Heinrich was like, 407 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: you know, you should really think about it. Are you 408 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: gonna do it, You're gonna do it, We're gonna do it, right, 409 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 1: And so, you know, the day came and he, you know, 410 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: just went ahead and did it. That's horrifying because it's 411 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: so indicative of how a lot of times people men, women, 412 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: kids alike who end up in the criminal justice system 413 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, ceased to be a person, right, and 414 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: they just become a statistic and they become a problem, 415 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: you know. And yeah, it is expensive to pay for 416 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: people to be in jail. It's about sixty dollars a 417 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: year to pay for of tax payer money to pay 418 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: for one woman who's in prison. And that's insane. But 419 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: that's not the problem of you know, it's it's a 420 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: it's a system wide problem. I feel like that's a 421 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 1: top down issue sterilization. Treating those women like animals in 422 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: a lot of ways is certainly not going to stop 423 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: that cycle, right, And it's it's just it was so horrifying, 424 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: partially because you know, this country does have a history 425 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 1: of doing that, but doing it particularly to people of color. 426 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: And so to hear the story that California prisons have 427 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: so recently still been forcing women or coercing women into it. 428 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: It's that is eye opening, and that doesn't change the 429 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: fact that there are still what two thirds of women 430 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: in prison who go into prison already with kids, and 431 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: those kids aren't heightened risk first getting in trouble at school, depression, 432 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: and then ending up in jail. So it really is cyclical, 433 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: which leads us to the problem with recidivism of leaving 434 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: and getting right back, because roughly four and ten adult 435 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,719 Speaker 1: American offenders will return to prison within three years of 436 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: their release, according to a two thousand eleven report from 437 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: the Pew Charitable Trusts. Right, and so this is going 438 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 1: back to the tasty character on Orange is the New 439 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: Black when she does talk about how much she had 440 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: to deal with and what landed her back in prison, 441 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 1: because prisoners simply don't just walk out. Um, you have 442 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: all sorts of parole and probation fees, jail book in fees, 443 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: jail per d ms for pre trialed attention, presentenced report fees, 444 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: just so much, so many little rules and regulations and 445 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: so much big money that you have to deal with 446 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: once you get released from jail. And if, for instance, 447 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: you have a felony drug conviction, you're ineligible for housing assistance. 448 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: And I think that the how thing issue was one 449 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: thing that landed Tasty back in jail and the show 450 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: she had nowhere to go, she had nowhere to sleep? 451 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: What are you going to do? Um? And only about 452 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: ten p of inmates attend educational, vocational or treatment programs 453 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,479 Speaker 1: on a given day, not necessarily because they don't want to, 454 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: but because those rehabilitational programs are often not offered, probably 455 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: because there's not money for it, there aren't resources, and 456 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: the way that we often dehumanize the people who need 457 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: those kinds of resources. And it's unfortunate because research from 458 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: Pew and other sources have shown the benefits monetary and 459 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: otherwise that are reaped when you install educational, vocational, et 460 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: cetera kinds of training programs for prisoners. Because Kerman real 461 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: life Piper talked about how you know, she did attend 462 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: some of the class this even though she herself had 463 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: a man and a job waiting for her when she 464 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: got out of prison. You know, she she talked about 465 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: going to some of those quote unquote classes and how 466 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: she went to a housing class. You know where people 467 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: have questions about like how do I get an apartment, 468 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: how do I pay rent? Like how do I do this? 469 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: And that? But they were teaching them about home repair 470 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: and applying siting to the side of your house or 471 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: you know, just really random things like that where it's like, well, 472 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: this isn't helping anyone. It's not real life, you know, 473 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: reality based teaching. Yeah, and in prison vocation programs for instance, 474 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: like preparing people to get jobs, which is really really 475 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: hard if you are a felon. Especially, those kinds of 476 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: programs produced net benefits of over thirteen dollars per offender 477 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: or over twelve dollars for every dollar invested, and well 478 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: net a drop in recidivism. So that's just one example 479 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: of how the system could not only help these people 480 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: but also help stop the cycle that has led to 481 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: this overwhelming like metasticizing prison population where prisons are in 482 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: jails are now being outsourced to private companies, for profit companies. 483 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: We don't have room for our prison population in the 484 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: United States. Isn't that crazy to think about that we 485 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: arrest so many people and have no place to put them. Well, 486 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm saying this from a privileged position, obviously, 487 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: but it doesn't it seem like it's common sense. Two 488 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: and I realized this is moving a mountain. It doesn't 489 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: seem like it's common sense to put more effort and 490 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: money into community programs things to actually help people, whether 491 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,479 Speaker 1: you're someone who has been in jail or or not, 492 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: but to help strengthen communities and educate people so that 493 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: they don't cycle back. Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's 494 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: much a comprehensive problem that you could talk about, from 495 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: the way that prisons are set up all the way 496 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: to how our laws are established. And I mean there 497 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: have been, um, there has been recent news about eliminating 498 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses, which would cut down 499 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: a lot on all of these massive numbers of drug 500 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: offenders who are currently behind bars. Um. And then you 501 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: take it back even further to education, keeping kids in school, 502 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: keeping families intact, etcetera. You know, Yeah, it's the problem 503 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: of our exploding prisons is bigger than those prisons for sure, exactly. UM. 504 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: And to me, the if there is good news, UM, 505 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: it's that there are people like Piper Kerman who are 506 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: really trying to shine a light on these issues. I 507 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: think it's a good thing that, even though it might 508 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: not be the most realistic portrayal of women's prison. I 509 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: think that it's great that Gingi Cohen made Orange is 510 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: the New Black, and I'm glad that it has hit 511 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: such a cultural nerve and that people are asking these 512 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: questions of, oh, well, what's what's it like in real life? 513 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: And I think the reason why we're so curious to 514 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: know how it applies to real life because it highlights 515 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: these women as real people and not just oh oh, 516 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: they're just prisoners, are just offenders, they're just criminals. Keep 517 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: them away from me. Well. There's a point in one 518 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: of the episodes where Red is talking to Natasha Lean's character, um, 519 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: and you know, Natasha Leone is saying something and Red 520 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: is like, well, you know, what are the what are 521 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: the taxpayers care? They don't care. You know, we're eating 522 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: this junk because they're just trying to watch with the 523 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: bottom line is, you know, we're the bad guys. And 524 00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,479 Speaker 1: I think I think there is that attitude of like, well, 525 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: I don't care about what anything is like in prison 526 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: for prisoners because they're prisoners. They're bad guys. And it's like, well, 527 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: but you have to look at the cultural effect, the 528 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: societal effect that all of this is having exactly um 529 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: And can I close off with a really long quote 530 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: from Piper Kerman please please who after after learning more 531 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: about her and what she does and how she uses 532 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,720 Speaker 1: her now very elevated platform to advocate for those women 533 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: that she was imprisoned with and who are in prison 534 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: right now, I have so much respect for her. Um. 535 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: And she was talking to the Washington Post about the 536 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: current state of the women's prison population and she says, 537 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: I think that women in prison are really emblematic of typical, 538 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: low level, non violent offenders. That is a giant growth 539 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: area in terms of our prison system. Over the last 540 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: thirty years. We're putting people in prison who we never 541 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 1: would have put in prison before. And there's a staggering 542 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: social cost when we talk about the families, but also 543 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: it costs of sixty dollars a year and that adds 544 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: up really quickly. And we're talking about someone who was 545 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: not this prominent threat to safety. It's just a policy 546 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: and that's it. And families and communities are being destroyed 547 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: because of it. Yeah, So what can people do if 548 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: they want to help out, if they are my if 549 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: they are as concerned about what life is really like 550 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: in women's prisons and in jails and prisons in general. 551 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: What what can people do to help out? Well, there 552 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: is the Women's Prison Association, which is what Piper Kerman 553 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: is affiliated with. That's at w p A online dot org. 554 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: And then there is this Sentencing Project which we referenced 555 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 1: earlier and that is at Sentencing Project dot org. So 556 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: now I want to hear from you, mom Step of 557 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: Discovery dot com is where you can send your emails 558 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: thoughts on Orange as the new black women's prison, the 559 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 1: criminal justice system. I know we through a lot of 560 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: information at you for this one, but it's a really 561 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 1: big one to tackle, So we want to hear all 562 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: of your thoughts mom Stuff at Discovery dot com. You 563 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 1: can also hit us up on Facebook or tweet us 564 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast. And we've got a couple of 565 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: letters to share. And now back to our letters. Well, 566 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: since we're about to wrap up our special series on 567 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: lean in women, work in the Will to Lead by 568 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: Sheryl Sandberg, who want to share a couple of letters 569 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: from our episode on the workplace fear Factor. This is 570 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 1: a letter from Cynthia. She says, I'm a chemistry professor 571 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: at a large public university. I have always felt like 572 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: it was a complete accident that I was accepted to 573 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: a top graduate program. I would get so worried about 574 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 1: it that I wouldn't participate in the extremely important study 575 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: groups my first year, instead choosing to cry over my 576 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: intelligible books alone. Later, I found that many of my classmates, 577 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,280 Speaker 1: male and female, felt the same. However, we women would 578 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: over prepare and obsessed to the point that it was 579 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: detrimental to our health. My graduate advisor, another woman who 580 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: admits to strong impostor syndrome, taught me to fake it 581 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: until I make it. Well, I've now made it, and 582 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: every day I feel more and more like I deserve it. 583 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,879 Speaker 1: I've worked my butt off, Darnett, and I'm a great 584 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: chemist because of it. She says, keep up your good work. 585 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 1: I love your podcast, so thank you, Cynthia, and keep 586 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 1: up your chemistry. It's very cool. Well, I've go on 587 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,240 Speaker 1: here from Becca subject line impostor in the laboratory. She writes, 588 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 1: I'm a recent college graduate who was fortunate enough to 589 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: land a fantastic job in a research lab straight out 590 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: of school. I don't admit this to anyone, but I 591 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: really only got the job through personal connections. It's true 592 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: that this isn't really unusual, but knowing that I didn't 593 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: earn the job through merit alone has made me feel 594 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: like a total impostor. I am surrounded by intelligent individuals, 595 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: and I often doubt my ability to work alongside them. 596 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: I'm three months into this job, and I have to 597 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: say that this impostor syndrome has been strangely motivational for me. 598 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: My first month here was shaky, and I felt really 599 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: undeserving of this position. However, I harness that uneasiness and 600 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: I have been working really hard to prove that I 601 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,879 Speaker 1: belong here. Apparently my hard work is paying off. Last week, 602 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: my supervisor told me she was impressed with my work. 603 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: Thanks for the great podcast, you too have helped me 604 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:19,879 Speaker 1: through hours of culturing cells, extracting DNA, and countless other 605 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 1: tests that sound more exciting than we really are. So 606 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: keep on rocking at Becca and everybody else who's listening. 607 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at discovery dot com is where you can 608 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: send your letters. You can tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast, 609 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,399 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook, and follow us on Tumblr where 610 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: it's stuff mom Never Told You dot tumblr dot com, 611 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: and check out our pictures on Instagram. That's right, We're 612 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 1: on Instagram at stuff Mom Never Told You, And finally, 613 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 1: don't forget to tune in this Friday to the final 614 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: chapter and our exploration on Cheryl Sandberg's book Lean In, 615 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: and don't forget to tune in over on YouTube our 616 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: new videos every week coming out YouTube dot com slash 617 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: stuff Mom, Never Told You, and don't Forget to subscribe 618 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics is 619 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:21,240 Speaker 1: how Stuff watch dot Com