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Speaker 1: Hey, Hey, Hey, va fam I cannot wait to introduce

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Speaker 1: you to today's guest. She is someone who I have been cyberstocking,

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Speaker 1: not in a creepy way, in a totally cool way

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Speaker 1: for a long time. I feel like she is my

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Speaker 1: nine to five hotty partner in crime.

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Speaker 2: She's me.

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Speaker 1: I think we have so much in common with the

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Speaker 1: way she's approached her career and her inspirational message of

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Speaker 1: how anyone out there, even if you're working nine to five,

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Speaker 1: you can still build wealth. I am so happy to

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Speaker 1: welcome Sonia to the show. Sania founded Flyinance, which is

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Speaker 1: an online platform dedicated to helping ambitious working women, who

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Speaker 1: she calls nine to five hotties, effortlessly build wealth and

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Speaker 1: say yes to more travel. She's a product manager and

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Speaker 1: she's worked at major companies like AMX and MasterCard, and

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Speaker 1: she has grown her salary four x in just four years,

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Speaker 1: became debt free, and managed to reach one hundred K

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Speaker 1: net worth by the tender age of twenty six years old.

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Speaker 1: Her story has been featured everywhere from GMA to CNBC

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Speaker 1: and now she's on Brown Ambition. So now you've made it, okay.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 1: GMA is like cool but come on, it's brown ambition

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Speaker 1: for legends.

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Speaker 2: Right now, that's a fast I'm jan girling very hard inside.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Mandy.

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Speaker 1: Likewise, Cinia, it's such a pleasure to have you on

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Speaker 1: the show. First and foremost, thank you for being I

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Speaker 1: feel like I've been banging this druma of quit your

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Speaker 1: way rich like kind of alone, and there's this like

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Speaker 1: stigma around telling people to quit their jobs. Talk to

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Speaker 1: me about and you're you know, you're a few years

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Speaker 1: younger than me, right are you? How old are you?

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Speaker 2: If you don't mind, I'm twenty seven right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're a few years younger. It was around

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Speaker 1: my mid twenties when I started making those really you know,

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Speaker 1: strategic quits, and I quit six times in a decade

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Speaker 1: of my career.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: I was in journalism, and I remember my little brother

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Speaker 1: kind of telling me like, why do you want to

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Speaker 1: go into journalism? Do you not want to make money?

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Speaker 1: And I remember thinking, listen, I tell stories. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: go for it. And I managed to quit and increase

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Speaker 1: my wealth along the way. But yeah, it wasn't like

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Speaker 1: the traditional traditional career trajectory or the traditional industry you

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Speaker 1: would think you could build wealth in now you chose

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Speaker 1: tech or did you tell me a little bit about

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Speaker 1: your career journey, where you started and when you started

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Speaker 1: to realize, oh, I can quit and actually build wealth here.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I love this question. So my career really actually

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Speaker 3: started in financial services. I landed my very first job

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Speaker 3: at AMEX on a product management team totally by chance.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: I did not know anything about what I wanted my

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Speaker 3: career to look like when I graduated from college and

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Speaker 3: grad school. This was around twenty seventeen, right, so product

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Speaker 3: management wasn't quite the hot, buzzy, you know, career choice

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Speaker 3: that it is today. So at that point I was

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Speaker 3: just happy to have landed my first big girl salary

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Speaker 3: and to land on a team with really great leadership.

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Speaker 3: But as I kind of spent more time at AMX

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Speaker 3: and really learned that, hey, product management is not only

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Speaker 3: something that's very strategic, it is something that I really enjoy.

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Speaker 2: I really feel like this is like my zone of genius.

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Speaker 3: That's kind of when I started to see that, Wow,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of opportunity out here for me, and

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Speaker 3: a lot of opportunity for me to grow and pivot

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Speaker 3: my career. Right, I don't just have to stay at

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Speaker 3: this one company. I don't just have to stay in

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Speaker 3: this one type of work. So I think tech was

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Speaker 3: always kind of something I was drawn to, really curious about,

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Speaker 3: so I.

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Speaker 2: Really spent more time.

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Speaker 3: I would say as I became, you know, a bit

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Speaker 3: more comfortable with my career my skill sets, to say, hey,

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Speaker 3: I can take the skills that I have as a

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Speaker 3: product manager, even though I've only ever worked at big

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Speaker 3: banks and turned that into a career in tech. So

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Speaker 3: I would say that, you know, my my pathway from

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Speaker 3: graduating school in twenty seventeen to today has been very serendipitous.

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Speaker 3: I've leaned very heavily on my network and really just

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Speaker 3: kind of putting myself out there for opportunities and to

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Speaker 3: the question around, you know, how I've known when to

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Speaker 3: make these strategic jumps. Honestly, it's been like a gut feeling,

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Speaker 3: right like. And we can definitely talk more about this,

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Speaker 3: but I think for me, even as a young black woman,

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Speaker 3: very rarely was I ever encouraged to leave a job.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: I left my first job in twenty nineteen. I was

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Speaker 3: like twenty four years old, right, So I remember having

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Speaker 3: bosses be like like oh my gosh, are you sure

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Speaker 3: you want to do this? Right? Very much, A lot

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Speaker 3: of a lot of that, you know, a lot of

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Speaker 3: that language around, kind of almost like kind of wanting

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Speaker 3: to shame me for wanting to make these kind of decisions.

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Speaker 1: This go ahead, okay, young blood, go ahead, you're gonna leave,

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Speaker 1: you'll come back?

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Speaker 3: Literally no, literally literally that I feel like that was

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Speaker 3: definitely that was definitely the energy. But I think for me,

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Speaker 3: especially around twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, when I first started

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Speaker 3: to learn about financial freedom and the Fire movement, I

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Speaker 3: really saw myself being someone that could take advantage of

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Speaker 3: that lifestyle of being able to grow my income keep

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Speaker 3: my expenses relatively the same.

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Speaker 2: So how was I going to do that?

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Speaker 3: I had to make more money, So that meant having

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Speaker 3: to make some of those quote unquote calculated risks to say,

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Speaker 3: maybe I need to go somewhere else to make more

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Speaker 3: money to build my skill set. And that's kind of

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Speaker 3: the energy that I've taken with me for the past

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Speaker 3: four and a half five years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So what did you study in college? And you

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Speaker 1: said you went to grad school, what did you study?

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Speaker 3: So in college I studied Africana studies. I loved it.

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Speaker 3: I absolutely loved it, but there was definitely no immediate

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Speaker 3: professional ROI. Right, It's like most of my most of

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Speaker 3: my peers who majored in Africana studies are obtaining PhDs

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Speaker 3: right now or work say academics.

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Speaker 1: I want to teach them and be in academia forever.

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Speaker 3: Literally, I feel like most of my peers went like

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Speaker 3: the Melan maze academia academia away, and then a few

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Speaker 3: of us kind of went into more like social justice

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Speaker 3: nonprofit work.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm probably the only.

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Speaker 3: Person from my class that actually ended up pivoting working

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Speaker 3: in corporate and definitely today working in tech.

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Speaker 2: And then graduate school.

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Speaker 3: Actually did a one year master's, my Masters of Sciences

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Speaker 3: and Business Management, so kind of gave me more of

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Speaker 3: that business acumen, more of those practical skills, and I

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Speaker 3: think more of that confidence to say, you know, I

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Speaker 3: spent four years in undergrad kind of shying away from

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Speaker 3: you know, more quant heavy subjects.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: I was an Africata SIDI major, so I think that

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Speaker 3: master's program really kind of gave me that confidence to say, hey, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I can do excel. I can you know, I can

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Speaker 3: read financial charts, which I think really helped me pivot

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Speaker 3: and land an American Express as my first job.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's wonderful because a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I do a lot of career coaching, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of women maybe they study something and they

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Speaker 1: or they have experience in a certain field and they

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Speaker 1: want to pivot into a new one. So for sure,

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Speaker 1: I mean, talk to me about the interview process. When

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Speaker 1: with you with your Africana Studies background. Did you go

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Speaker 1: back to get your MBA because you were struggling to

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Speaker 1: find work or was that just part of the plan.

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Speaker 1: You know, this will help me as I interview.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So when I was a senior in college, I had

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Speaker 3: no idea what I wanted to do professionally. Right, I

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Speaker 3: went to this really great school, I went to Barnard.

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Speaker 3: I was at this really great school, but had no

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Speaker 3: job offer. And so senior fall I really started to think, Okay,

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Speaker 3: I have two choices, Right, I can either try really

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Speaker 3: hard to convince an interview or on the other side

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Speaker 3: that this Africana Studies degree can help me work in

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Speaker 3: a more business aligned job, or I can see, hey,

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Speaker 3: there are a lot of At that time, there were

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Speaker 3: a lot of these programs kind of popping up at

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Speaker 3: Duke Wake Forest and other kind of business schools, kind

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Speaker 3: of giving people like me non traditional backgrounds, lower arts backgrounds,

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Speaker 3: and opportunity to break sort of speak into more business

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Speaker 3: focus fields.

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Speaker 2: So that's actually what I ended up doing. I ended

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Speaker 2: up taking.

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Speaker 3: I ended up deciding to get my masters right out

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Speaker 3: of undergrad one because it was fully funded, right, so

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Speaker 3: I received a full ride fellowship, and then two because

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Speaker 3: to your point, I really did struggle, I guess kind

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Speaker 3: of telling my story really to the point where I

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Speaker 3: could land offers, right, So I did a lot of interviewing.

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Speaker 3: I was interviewing for a lot of rotational associate programs

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Speaker 3: at that time because I felt like I had a

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Speaker 3: lot of skills and didn't really see myself narrowly fitting

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Speaker 3: into one. Right now, in hindsight, I wish someone would

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Speaker 3: have told me, hey, you could be a product manager,

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Speaker 3: but that was never something that I even knew about, right,

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Speaker 3: So that's why I decided to get my masters. It

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Speaker 3: was fully funded. It gave me an opportunity to be

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Speaker 3: a student again, something I'm really good at. I'm really

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Speaker 3: good at regurgitating information. But it also gave me a

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Speaker 3: chance to kind of like have another year to kind

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Speaker 3: of figure things out and be in that position where, hey,

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Speaker 3: jobs are coming to me, you know, recruiters are looking

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Speaker 3: for me. I'm a student, which really helped me in

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Speaker 3: terms of my interview process.

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Speaker 2: I casted a really wide net.

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Speaker 3: My master's program was done at WAKE four, so I

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Speaker 3: was in Winston, Sdalem, North Carolina. I did not love

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Speaker 3: it down there, so I was pretty much putting out

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Speaker 3: increes connections my resume to as many companies in the

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Speaker 3: New York area as I could. And how I had

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Speaker 3: landed up at AMX was actually through networking. I met

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Speaker 3: a lot of different people across AMX, but one person

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Speaker 3: in particular we really built a really great relationship, and

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Speaker 3: it just so happened around the time that I was

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Speaker 3: about to graduate from my master's program.

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Speaker 2: I really needed a job.

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Speaker 3: She made her own personal decision to leave AMEX and

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Speaker 3: to leave New York City and she recommended me for

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Speaker 3: her job. So that is literally how I ended up

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Speaker 3: on a product management team, on a high profile product

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Speaker 3: management team at American Express. Is my first job. By networking, hustling,

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Speaker 3: building relationships and a little bit of luck.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean and thank you for giving a shout

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Speaker 1: out to Lady Luck because it is a piece of it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's also open. It's also kind of approaching

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Speaker 1: your career in a way that you leave room for luck,

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Speaker 1: and you you leave room for that uncertainty, which if

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Speaker 1: you're someone who's like obsessed with doing things on a

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Speaker 1: certain schedule, it's very uncomfortable for you. But it's hard

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Speaker 1: to articulate that too, that you have to put your

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Speaker 1: best foot forward, like you said, the build those relationships,

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Speaker 1: but then you got to wait for an opportunity, right,

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Speaker 1: and that a little bit of is luck. And how

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Speaker 1: wonderful that someone was able to kind of put you

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Speaker 1: in that position for success. Now, I'm sure that she

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Speaker 1: recommended you, but she still had to interview for the job,

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Speaker 1: right and get in the door. So I mean, congrats

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Speaker 1: to you for that. When you so going from kind

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Speaker 1: of liberal arts to sitting down at a financial services company,

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Speaker 1: what was that transition like?

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Speaker 3: So I will I will say I think that one

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Speaker 3: year and my master's program really set me up well

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Speaker 3: for success.

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Speaker 2: Now I will say I'm an overachiever.

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Speaker 3: So I was that person even in this really intense,

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Speaker 3: you know, Master's pro that I always pushed myself for more.

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Speaker 3: So I ended up graduating the top of my class

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Speaker 3: for my master's program, was inducted into Beta Gamma Sigma,

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Speaker 3: which is a business honors society. So I took my

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Speaker 3: studies really seriously. I really took that year really seriously

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Speaker 3: to learn and absorb as much as I could. And

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Speaker 3: I think as a result, when I, you know, got

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Speaker 3: to financial services, got to AMEX, and here I was

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Speaker 3: doing analytics, right, I was in Excel. I was, you know,

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Speaker 3: having to create really educating create stories for my team

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Speaker 3: around the data that was coming back from our car members.

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Speaker 2: Like it was kind of easy, right.

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Speaker 3: Because I'd spent this year really really trying to build

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Speaker 3: up these skills that I felt like I didn't really

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Speaker 3: have a chance to practice.

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Speaker 2: An undergrad And I think as a result, I.

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Speaker 3: Think that that's why I was really successful at AMEX.

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Speaker 2: I think one being really.

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Speaker 3: Sad for success, but I was also extremely lucky to

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Speaker 3: land on a team where I had really strong leaders

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Speaker 3: and women, leaders who really were invested in me being successful, right,

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Speaker 3: who mentored me and said, yeah, I know, this is

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Speaker 3: your first corporate job, and.

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Speaker 2: This is how you can do things right.

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Speaker 3: This is the brand and the culture at AMEX, and

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Speaker 3: this is how you can show up and show your

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Speaker 3: best self, right, And that really helped me. Right, even

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Speaker 3: as I think about my experience as a young black

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Speaker 3: professional at ames and the short amount of time that

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Speaker 3: I was there, I think I was able to get

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Speaker 3: promotions and have really high profile opportunities because I had

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Speaker 3: such strong leadership and strong mentorship and sponsorship. Right that,

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Speaker 3: as I looked at some of my other peers who

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Speaker 3: were just as intelligent as me, just as capable as me,

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Speaker 3: not having those pieces, especially in a corporate culture like AMEX,

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Speaker 3: I think kind of kept them from I think, getting

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Speaker 3: some of the markers of achievement and success that I

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Speaker 3: think that they were really owed. So I would say

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Speaker 3: the transition wasn't it wasn't too tough, but there was

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Speaker 3: definitely a learning curve, as there is any time you

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Speaker 3: join a new organization.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a couple of things I want to talk go

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Speaker 1: back to you really quick. You mentioned a fellowship that

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Speaker 1: got you a full ride scholarship or how did you

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Speaker 1: how did you find that opportunity to get your degree

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Speaker 1: paid for? Because I think that's important for listeners to

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Speaker 1: maybe get a tip from that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So the tip from that is put yourself out

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Speaker 3: there for any and all opportunities.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean the opportunity.

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Speaker 3: That allowed me to get a full ride fellowship to

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Speaker 3: get my master's program actually goes back to even when

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Speaker 3: I was applying to colleges in high school. I was

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Speaker 3: that girl that went to the library, got a scholarship book,

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Speaker 3: knew my parents could not afford to send me to college,

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Speaker 3: and just applied to everything that I was eligible for.

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Speaker 3: One of those things was being a part of the

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Speaker 3: rom Brown scholars Network. Now I was not a rom

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Speaker 3: Brown scholar. I did not receive all of the money,

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Speaker 3: but I was a part of their network and took

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Speaker 3: advantage of all the opportunities that they would send to

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Speaker 3: students in the network. Right, So I ended up getting

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Speaker 3: an internship one year in college through that network, and

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Speaker 3: they were also partnering with the wake Forward School of

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Speaker 3: Business to promote this new program and promote the fellowship.

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Speaker 3: So when I saw that it's like free ride, y'all

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Speaker 3: are gonna pay for my room and board and I

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Speaker 3: can get a master's Oh yeah, okay, I'm gonna do this.

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Speaker 3: So that's what I did, And you know, I had

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Speaker 3: the delusional confidence that I was exact I was going

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Speaker 3: to be picked right like. I went into my interview saying,

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Speaker 3: when I am a corporate fellow for this program, these

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Speaker 3: are the people I want to sponsor me, right like.

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Speaker 3: And I think that confidence and I think my my persistence,

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Speaker 3: I think is what helped me get that.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So, I think the tip there is anytime you see

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Speaker 3: an opportunity, don't be afraid to go for it, right.

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Speaker 3: I think, especially as women, as women of color, especially

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Speaker 3: as Black women, we receive so many messages that tell

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Speaker 3: us we're not worthy enough, we're not capable enough. But

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Speaker 3: I think I've always kind of kept with myself that, hey,

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Speaker 3: if I see something that's out there that speaks to me,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna put myself out there because I never know

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Speaker 3: what can come out of it. Right, My seventeen year

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Speaker 3: old self sept my twenty one two and now twenty

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Speaker 3: seven year old self up for so much success and

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Speaker 3: she didn't even know it back then.

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Speaker 1: Oh, baby Sania, Thanks baby Sania.

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Speaker 2: Look what you've said up to her. All right?

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Speaker 1: Another thing that I was thinking while you were speaking

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Speaker 1: about you know, you being and thank you for pointing

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Speaker 1: out the importance of those relationships and having sponsorship and

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Speaker 1: actually putting your best foot forward to build those relationships

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Speaker 1: and not necessarily being the person. You get a job

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Speaker 1: and you come on and you just think you're going

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Speaker 1: to quietly sit in your cubicle and that someone will

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Speaker 1: just tap you on the shoulder and say you you,

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Speaker 1: we've noticed you. That's not how it happens. Building relationships

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Speaker 1: is so important and getting that sponsorship did that make it?

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Speaker 1: And this is I'm going to ask you this question,

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Speaker 1: And the reason I'm asking it is because I think

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Speaker 1: you and I both agree that when you quit jobs,

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Speaker 1: there is that perception that you know or you're often told,

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Speaker 1: be grateful, be loyal. People took a chance on you,

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Speaker 1: and you had people who were going to bat for

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Speaker 1: you within your company at Amexo, but you still left.

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Speaker 1: And I love that. So talk to me about your

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Speaker 1: decision around leaving and why, when, what all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so let me set the scene for you.

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Speaker 3: So my decision to leave Ammex the very first company

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Speaker 3: I ever worked at, and to your point, where I

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Speaker 3: had a lot of brand equity right not just on

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Speaker 3: my immediate team, but I had leaders across the company

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Speaker 3: who knew me believed in me, were putting me in

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Speaker 3: a position to when I think it started to conflict

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Speaker 3: with my holistic vision of what I had for myself,

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Speaker 3: and that was to become more financially sound. That was

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Speaker 3: to start building wealth. That was to have more money

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Speaker 3: so that I could get over some of the financial

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Speaker 3: challenges that I felt like I was kind of in. Right,

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Speaker 3: So twenty eighteen, I've now had spent a year working

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Speaker 3: full time, and I was fucking my money.

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Speaker 2: Up, right.

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Speaker 3: I was that girl that was just kind of like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's okay, I have my first set of credit cards.

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Speaker 2: I'm just you know. Yeah. I was bread real hard.

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Speaker 2: I was ubering really hard. Oh, these were the days

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Speaker 2: of uberpool. Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 3: Right, So I was having a good time, right, I

360
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Speaker 3: was having a great time in New York. I would argue,

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Speaker 3: as you should have done, but yeah, yeah, definitely, And

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Speaker 3: I don't regret those times at all. But as a result, right,

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Speaker 3: not having any type of financial acumen when it came

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Speaker 3: to money management, I put myself into a lot of debt,

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Speaker 3: and it was debt that I couldn't afford to pay.

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Speaker 3: When I kind of looked back at and those times,

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Speaker 3: it was like, Hey, I have this decent salary. I

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Speaker 3: have a great salary as a single woman in New York,

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Speaker 3: but I have nothing to show for it. I don't

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Speaker 3: have any savings. Now, I have all this debt that

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Speaker 3: I put myself into. I don't have anyone I can

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Speaker 3: go to and be like, oh, mom and dad, can

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Speaker 3: you send me a small loan of ten thousand dollars

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Speaker 3: to pay off these credit cards?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 3: It just wasn't It wasn't a thing, right, So that

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Speaker 3: was a big wake up call for me, right, Yeah,

378
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Speaker 3: that was a big wake up call for me.

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Speaker 1: It was about ten thousand dollars of credit card debt.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I had I one summer, I put myself in

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Speaker 3: ten thousand dollars of credit card debt.

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Speaker 1: So, wow, tell you really good? Did you take a vacation.

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Speaker 2: I was traveling, I was out.

384
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Speaker 3: I was going to Pollo Classic, buying one hundred dollars

385
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Speaker 3: bottles of Bilfleco Like I was living.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I was living. I was living right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't say that now, but I mean in

388
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Speaker 3: the moment, I had a lot of shame around it, right,

389
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Speaker 3: Like I had a lot of shame around around my

390
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Speaker 3: money mistake.

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Speaker 1: You were tender swindling yourself pretty much.

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Speaker 2: That's the nurse whindler that summer.

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Speaker 1: Wait, so what was your salary at AMEX though?

394
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Speaker 3: So when I around this time, I was making seventy

395
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Speaker 3: two thousand dollars.

396
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Speaker 1: That's not jabby at all for your first kid out

397
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Speaker 1: of college. I was making at all. Well, you got

398
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Speaker 1: about I got about eight years on you. But I

399
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Speaker 1: came into I came to Manhattan making forty five K.

400
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Speaker 1: But my problem was I had it. I'm from Georgia

401
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Speaker 1: and I had a Georgian mentality about salary. So I

402
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,800
Speaker 1: thought forty five K. I was like, babe, I made it.

403
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Speaker 1: I'm here. Uh it took. But now don't worry my

404
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,960
Speaker 1: my my expectations are definitely on the New York level. Now,

405
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Speaker 1: all right, So you had this debt, you were still

406
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Speaker 1: making a decent salary, But was was your career purely about? Okay,

407
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to increase my earnings and I can't get

408
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,399
Speaker 1: it quickly enough here at AMEX, so I'm going to

409
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Speaker 1: have to go somewhere else.

410
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Speaker 2: That's exactly it. Right.

411
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Speaker 3: So I got a little sidetrack when I was telling

412
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Speaker 3: you the story, right, I wanted to set the scene though, Right,

413
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Speaker 3: So twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 2: I put myself into all this debt.

415
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Speaker 3: Twenty nineteen, I end up getting connected with the financial advisor,

416
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,199
Speaker 3: I start learning about fire, I start following all these

417
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,840
Speaker 3: personal finance accounts on Instagram. I'm just like, oh wow,

418
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,440
Speaker 3: I can do this, Like, okay, let me start to

419
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Speaker 3: kind of figure out, like what does it mean to

420
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Speaker 3: live on a budget?

421
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Speaker 2: Okay, this is not so hard.

422
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Speaker 3: Okay, I actually have more money at my disposal that

423
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Speaker 3: I could be putting towards like my future self. But

424
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,800
Speaker 3: I've been overspending so much that I don't even see

425
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,600
Speaker 3: that it's there. Right, So this is kind of twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 3: I spent that year really kind of learning a lot

427
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Speaker 3: about my own spending habits, triggers traumas, and also learning

428
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Speaker 3: about future state where do I want to be? And

429
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Speaker 3: at this time, I'm like, Okay, I was promoted at AMEX,

430
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Speaker 3: so now I'm a manager. I ended up getting a

431
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,440
Speaker 3: harity raise, So at this point I'm making actually right

432
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Speaker 3: under six figures. I'm making around ninety nine thousand dollars.

433
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Speaker 3: Still have a lot of disciplsal when income, and I'm like, Okay,

434
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Speaker 3: this is great. I really want to become debt free.

435
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,919
Speaker 3: So in addition to like the credit card debt that

436
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Speaker 3: I mentioned, I also did have some student loan debt

437
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Speaker 3: from from my years in school right that I was

438
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Speaker 3: kind of like, this isn't like a super big deal.

439
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,399
Speaker 2: But for me, I'm an overachiever.

440
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 3: I want to become debt free, like I want to

441
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:29,680
Speaker 3: be able to have that major bunk to my net

442
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,919
Speaker 3: worth growth. So this is twenty nineteen and now twenty

443
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,000
Speaker 3: twenties approaching. Obviously had no idea what was around the corner,

444
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,199
Speaker 3: but at the beginning of twenty twenty, I'm like, Okay,

445
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,639
Speaker 3: I want to set a really ambitious goal for myself

446
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,320
Speaker 3: of paying off all of my debt in one year.

447
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:44,359
Speaker 2: I'd spent a year working on a budget.

448
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,480
Speaker 3: I feel like I can do this twenty three thousand

449
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 3: dollars in one year on my salary.

450
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,360
Speaker 2: It's going to be a stretch. I'm actually probably short

451
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 2: some so.

452
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,200
Speaker 3: I need to make more money. You know, I'm doing

453
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,440
Speaker 3: great work at AMX. I'm working on all these strategic projects.

454
00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 3: I just got promoted in a year that almost never

455
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 3: had and then I'm having these conversations with my leaders

456
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 3: and I'm just like, yeah, so like, let's talk about

457
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,439
Speaker 3: career progression, like what is it going to take for

458
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,400
Speaker 3: me to get to senior manager? That's the next level

459
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,120
Speaker 3: On AMEX, it was just kind of all like, oh, yeah,

460
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, we just promoted you a year ago.

461
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 2: Oh well, But.

462
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 3: I think also the writing was on the wall, right

463
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 3: that I could see other professionals, even on my team.

464
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 2: Right who had kind of matriculated.

465
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,400
Speaker 3: Even before me, that they were not being hunted down

466
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 3: for promotions.

467
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 2: Right.

468
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,200
Speaker 3: So I also had this sense my own self awareness

469
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 3: to say, Sis, the longer that you stay here, the

470
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 3: longer these people are going to pay with your money.

471
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 2: Right.

472
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 3: Like It's like all of those things that you were

473
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 3: talking about in terms of this idea about loyalty, this

474
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,440
Speaker 3: idea around like paying your dues, this idea of oh

475
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:51,959
Speaker 3: we need to make sure that the people who are

476
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,879
Speaker 3: more senior get their chance, right, headcount can only go

477
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,119
Speaker 3: so far. All of those things were embedded into the

478
00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 3: culture at AMEX, and I just kind of realized, like,

479
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 3: I want to make more money, not just for money's sake,

480
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 3: but because I want to become debt free, because I

481
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 3: know that I now feel like I have the skills

482
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 3: to be able to put this money to good use

483
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,159
Speaker 3: for my future self. And also I just feel like

484
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 3: it's time, right I'd spent three and a half years

485
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 3: at AMEX. I felt like there's more out there again

486
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 3: leaned on networks, right. So I ended up actually landing

487
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 3: my next job at MasterCard through a connection that I

488
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,199
Speaker 3: had at Columbia. I went to Columbia for undergrad a

489
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 3: fellow alum. Her team was hiring. They were looking for

490
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 3: someone with my expertise, a product manager, ideally a woman

491
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 3: of color who had my financial services background. I interviewed,

492
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 3: the interview process was really smooth, and literally got my

493
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 3: offer a week before New York City went into shutdown.

494
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,159
Speaker 3: So I like to say that I was one of

495
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 3: the first people to create the exodus that has now

496
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 3: happened at AMEX, especially amongst professionals of color. I was

497
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 3: probably one of the very first people to leave AMEX

498
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 3: and the pandemic because I ended up putting my two

499
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 3: weeks in right at the end of March twenty twenty.

500
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 3: And for me, it wasn't just again, wasn't just purely

501
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 3: about the money piece, right. I knew I was leaving

502
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 3: behind all these great relationships, but it was also just

503
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 3: like I had this gut feeling that I wanted to

504
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 3: do something else, and you know, I feel like I'd

505
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 3: heard this idea all the time. Right, you have to

506
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 3: be the driver of your own career. You have to

507
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 3: be in the driver's seat. And I just felt this

508
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,680
Speaker 3: urge to say, this is a calculated risk. Right, I'm

509
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 3: going to another big financial services company that's going to

510
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 3: pay me more, that's going to give me a chance

511
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 3: to also develop my skills as a product manager.

512
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 2: What do I have to lose? Right, And it was

513
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 2: definitely the best decision I made for myself.

514
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: Can I just mention too that a lot of times

515
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: we put too much I think a lot of especially women,

516
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: put way too much value in the stability of a

517
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 1: job itself and how a job is stable and you know,

518
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: and not recognizing that you are your own stability at

519
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 1: the end of the day. Like even with you, Sania,

520
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 1: you're the fact that you have an MBA, the fact

521
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: or you have a business administration a masters in, that

522
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: you have this college network, you've done so well in

523
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 1: you know your school, You've built relationships professionally, Like that

524
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: is resiliency and at the end of the day, is

525
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 1: it a risk take a new job? Sure, but also no,

526
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 1: because you can get laid off and I'm sure you'd

527
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: bounced right back off, bounce right back because you have

528
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: you know, this foundation of success yourself. All right, ba fam,

529
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break. This is brown ambition. All right,

530
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: ba fam, we are back now. I want to ask

531
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: you what was the pay jump? Because I love I

532
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 1: feel like any anytime we can like share how much

533
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: of a jump we made by quitting. It's powerful because

534
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: I mean, in my experience, maybe you can agree with me,

535
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 1: we'll see, But the biggest pay raise has come when

536
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,880
Speaker 1: you are ready to leave and move.

537
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 2: To a company. I totally agree with that, Mandy.

538
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, So when I left Amex, I was making just

539
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 3: under one hundred thousand dollars. I was making around like

540
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 3: ninety nine thousand some change. By joining MasterCard on the

541
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 3: team that I was on again also being a product manager,

542
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 3: which is seen as more technical, therefore more strategic and

543
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 3: worth more, I increased my base salary by thirty two

544
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 3: thousand dollars. And then when I kind of throw in

545
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 3: the fact that I also got a bonus at the

546
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 3: end of that year, in total, I ended up earning

547
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 3: an additional fifty thousand dollars by leaving Nice.

548
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 1: So when you negotiated a new offer, MasterCard, what was

549
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: that experience like? Now, did you have to fight for

550
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 1: that thirty two? And was there any talk of signing

551
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 1: bonus equity other incentives that you know you were able

552
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: to ask for.

553
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, So when I negotiated my offer at Massacred, I

554
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 3: was I'm very happy to say that I had a

555
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 3: recruiter who was very direct, very transparent, so it wasn't

556
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 3: a hard negotiation at all. I pretty much just asked

557
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,479
Speaker 3: for what I want. I think the initial offer was

558
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 3: maybe like eight or ten thousand dollars short of the

559
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 3: number that I actually ended up landing on, So that

560
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 3: came from negotiating, and I think I was also able

561
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 3: to negotiate a sign on because you know my thing,

562
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 3: Because I have also been pretty fortunate to kind of

563
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 3: always leave jobs right before bonuses are paid out, I

564
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 3: always use that as an opportunity to negotiate for more

565
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 3: cash in my pocket. So I think I ended up

566
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 3: leaving AMEX right before my bonus was paid out and

567
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 3: kind of used that number to say, Hey, MasterCard, I

568
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 3: really want to sign this offer, but I need this money,

569
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 3: right So, and that's actually the same tactic that I

570
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 3: used again when I now join my current employer in

571
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 3: tech to say, Hey, if I leave MasterCard, I'm leaving

572
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 3: behind twenty nine thousand dollars. What can you guys do

573
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 3: to bring this in the offer? And that's how I

574
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 3: was able to negotiate in this current job a twenty

575
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 3: nine thousand dollars sign on bonus that was not even

576
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 3: on the table initially, right. So for me negotiating, I've

577
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 3: always been like, really stern on just getting my base

578
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 3: salary up, Like I haven't really negotiated for other perks

579
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 3: like PTO DA's and things like that. I've kind of

580
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 3: always just kind of been happy with the packages that

581
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 3: I've received on that front. But I've always been trying

582
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 3: to just get more cash into my bottom line, whether

583
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 3: that's through my base or through a sign on bonus.

584
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, hell's yes. I mean, I will say it till

585
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: I'm blue in the face, really sit down and crunch

586
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: the numbers on how much money you're leaving on the table.

587
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: I love that you mentioned your annual bonus, especially for

588
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: leaving at the beginning of the year, and those bonuses,

589
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: don't pay out till March. Don't let that keep you stuck.

590
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: Don't let that card stock car or if it's equity,

591
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,479
Speaker 1: or even if it's your unvested you know, four oh

592
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: one k matches. Add it all up, baby, and then

593
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: ask for it as a sign on bonus. I love

594
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 1: that you did that, and it gets easier each time.

595
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: You know, the fact that you were the fact that

596
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 1: you've even been able to ask this early in your

597
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 1: career should be inspiring to anyone listening that. And I

598
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: too was asking very early in my career and I

599
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 1: was hearing no, or if I was hearing yes, it

600
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 1: maybe was a couple thousand or this or that. It

601
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: wasn't anything crazy, but it made me prepared. And you

602
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: will be two for those days when then you're when

603
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: you're walking away like I have with like one hundred

604
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: and fifty thousand dollars, you know, signing bonus or equity

605
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: grant like that's it's all about practicing and getting the

606
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 1: in the habit of asking, because I will you agree

607
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: that it's still stressful and it's still like do you

608
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: get nervous when you negotiate? So do I?

609
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, of.

610
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 3: Course, yeah, I think it's I think it's totally normal too.

611
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 3: And I think especially for me, right, don't I don't

612
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 3: necessarily have so many women in my family to kind

613
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 3: of lean on and say how should I go about this? Right, Like,

614
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 3: my eldest sister has kind of worked the same job

615
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 3: for fifteen years, and the women before her, right, my

616
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 3: mother and grandmother, they spent their entire lifetimes working at

617
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 3: the same company.

618
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: Right.

619
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 3: So I think for me, am, I am even a

620
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 3: testament of how we talk about this all the time,

621
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 3: how the new generation goes about things, how millennials go

622
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 3: about things, because I think even the women and my

623
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 3: family are so inspired by when I'm like, yeah, I'm

624
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 3: gonna leave this company and I'm.

625
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: Going to negotiate for more, They're just like, more power

626
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: to you, girl.

627
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean true. And I think for our generation too,

628
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: it's almost like we have the we have the benefit

629
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: of having the Internet and having social media and having

630
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: all that. I feel like virtual sisters, big sisters who

631
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: are kind of showing us another way, and those little

632
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: like nudges and those and even sharing your story, you

633
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: kind of can become that mentor virtual mentor for other

634
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: people to inspire them and show them a different way,

635
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: whereas like my mom didn't have any you know when

636
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: without social media, you're just kind of closed off to

637
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: whatever's happening in your bubble, you know what I mean?

638
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: So absolutely, I mean I feel like my career coaching clients,

639
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: I've talked to so many women. I'm surprised, honestly how

640
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: many women are in their fifties and sixties who are

641
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: reaching out to me and they're like, I see what

642
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: y'all are doing. Let's go. Yes, it's not too late.

643
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,239
Speaker 1: So I do follow you on the tiki talking and

644
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: I know that you like to travel.

645
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 2: Now.

646
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: I was looking at your TikTok and I know one

647
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: of my one of my favorite posts. You always post

648
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: these like gorgeous, you know, scenes of you and I'm beautiful.

649
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: I got to ask where you get your swimwear at

650
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: because you're always looking fly. I guess it's why you

651
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: go buy fly, nanst. I get it. But you tell

652
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: a story on one of your viral tiktoks. How about

653
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: a year and a half into the pandemic, October twenty

654
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: twenty one, you were suffering from depression and feeling like

655
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: you were in a toxic work environment, and also you

656
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: were job hunting. Can you take me to that time

657
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: and tell me what was going on in your career

658
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: and how you were able to move through that to

659
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: your next opportunity.

660
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm happy to talk about it.

661
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 3: I will say September to November twenty twenty one was

662
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 3: probably the hardest, some of the hardest like moments of

663
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 3: my life thus far.

664
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: Right, so just kind of paid the picture for you.

665
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,959
Speaker 3: I had been working at MasterCard for about a year

666
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 3: and a half and really just started to feel like

667
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 3: I was not appreciated, like I was not really receiving

668
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 3: the development that I wanted to see in my career.

669
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 3: That I was essentially being siloed and stifled. Whether that

670
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 3: was intentional or not, but you know, I kind of

671
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 3: came and expecting one thing about how this job was

672
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 3: going to look, and by I would say, by by

673
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,479
Speaker 3: mid twenty twenty one, it was kind of clear to

674
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 3: me that if I did not take the reins over

675
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 3: my career, I was either going to get pushed out

676
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 3: or worse. And I think that was kind of like

677
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 3: a wake up call for me. I'd never really experienced

678
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 3: that in my career thus far. So here, I was

679
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 3: feeling like, one, I definitely want a new job, but two,

680
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 3: I also want more freedom in flexibility. I had spent

681
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: three months living remotely intulom in twenty twenty one, and

682
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 3: that gave me such a taste of the lifestyle that

683
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 3: I want. I am someone who wants to be location independent,

684
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 3: who sees myself living overseas and retiring early overseas. So

685
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 3: I think to have that experience was such an eye

686
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 3: opener for the type of job that I need to

687
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 3: be able to experience that and not kind of sacrifice.

688
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 3: And then at the same time, I was job hunting,

689
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 3: which anyone of us knows it can feel like a

690
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,479
Speaker 3: second job. So here, I was dealing with a lot

691
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 3: of toxicity in my nine to five that's paying my bills, right,

692
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 3: I don't have the option to quit my job because

693
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 3: I don't want to necessarily rely on my savings. I

694
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 3: don't necessarily want to put myself under that pressure. But

695
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 3: at the same time, job hunting, it took me a

696
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: lot longer than I thought. Right here, I am a

697
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 3: qualified product manager. I have all these great companies on

698
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 3: my resume.

699
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: What's not clicking?

700
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 3: Steven, Right, I was going on all these interviews, I

701
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 3: was talking to a lot of great companies. I did

702
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 3: not receive a single offer when I started my job

703
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 3: hunt in May twenty twenty one too about November, did

704
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 3: not receive a single offer, and that was really frustrating.

705
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 3: It was very humbling. I knew that I knew that

706
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 3: was suffering room depression because I couldn't get out of bed.

707
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 3: I'd started having just like apathy towards all the things

708
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 3: I enjoyed doing right.

709
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: I wasn't posting as much on Flinance.

710
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 3: I was honestly burnt out right from trying to travel,

711
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 3: create work a nine to five job hunt.

712
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: It was just was way too much on my plate.

713
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 3: So kind of what started to shift for me is

714
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 3: one I had to seek out a new therapist. I

715
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 3: just had to get new help too. I had to

716
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 3: change up my career strategy. I realized, maybe I can't

717
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 3: do this by myself, maybe I need support, right, So

718
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 3: I ended up investing in a career accelerator called product

719
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: Gym to really kind of help me create a new

720
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 3: strategy and build up some more confidence when it came

721
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 3: to interviewing and kind of telling my story. And then

722
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 3: I just had to kind of keep the ground running, right,

723
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 3: I took a break. I took like two and a

724
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 3: half weeks where I just didn't do anything. I did

725
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 3: not apply to any jobs. I just was kind of like,

726
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 3: let me just do my job and I'm going to

727
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 3: just spend the rest of the time just resting and

728
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 3: focusing on me. And I came back with a vengeance

729
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 3: and then ended up applying to literally about one hundred

730
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 3: and fifty jobs in a like three week span. One

731
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 3: of those jobs ended up being the job that I

732
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 3: have now. So I ended up receiving my offer in

733
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 3: December twenty twenty one.

734
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 2: And you know, I.

735
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 3: Would say that every day it started to get easier.

736
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 3: I think as I started to really see some real

737
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,479
Speaker 3: traction and my process, as I started to kind of

738
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 3: focus on my mental health and really kind of prioritize

739
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 3: my own self care, you know, I started to feel

740
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 3: like I could come out of that depressive state. And

741
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 3: then I really did win. I ended up getting I

742
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 3: mean offer that I accepted in the job that I

743
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 3: have now was my dream offer. I know that because

744
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 3: I tweeted. I'd like put out a tweet saying I

745
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 3: am manifesting this. I think I said, I wanted like

746
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 3: one hundred and sixty thousand dollars fully remote PM job

747
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 3: if I'm limited PTO and equity, and I got that

748
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 3: and then some in the offer that I ended up landing.

749
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 3: So whooh, I would say last year was definitely a

750
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 3: not only a test of my patience and humility, but

751
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 3: also a test of my resilience to say, this too

752
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 3: shall pass and it's going to get better, and you

753
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 3: can rest, but you cannot quit, right, There's so much

754
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 3: more that's out there that you're deserving of. So let's rest,

755
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 3: let's take breaks, but let's keep going, right, Because imagine

756
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 3: if I if I, you know, if I had stopped,

757
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 3: if I had stopped my progress, I would have kept

758
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 3: myself from all this abundance and.

759
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 2: Success that I have now in this current role.

760
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the majority of the clients who gravitate

761
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: toward me have ended up being women of color in

762
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 1: the six figure range mid career. And when I tell you,

763
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: and I have to tell them a lot too, is

764
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: it's the most challenging I think when you are at

765
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 1: a certain level in your career to find your next opportunity,

766
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: and it takes a lot longer, it can because those

767
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: opportunities are not they're fewer and further between, right, They're

768
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: also a bit more competitive, and at that point your

769
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 1: standards are higher, so you're not ready. You do have

770
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: like you, for example, you wanted something that was fully remote.

771
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: You want a certain salary range. So though you know

772
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: it does take time, and I think even adjusting your

773
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: own expectations for how long this journey may take. And

774
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,879
Speaker 1: then and there's so many women who I've looked at

775
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: on the other end of a you know, a zoom

776
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: call during coaching sessions and I've said, you have got

777
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: to take a break because even I can feel your

778
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: tired energy, your your lethargy, your depression like it's coming

779
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 1: through and it's hard to sparkle and shine and attract

780
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: a new opportunity in an interview when you are carrying

781
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: that energy with you. And I think it's a tough

782
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: pill to swallow for a lot of people, but I

783
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: love that you recognize it. Okay, I've got to like

784
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: take a deep breath, you know, take time, pause, pour

785
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: back into yourself so that you could go back fighting.

786
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 2: You know.

787
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: Definitely, you mentioned a program that you joined, what was it,

788
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: Product Gems what is Tell me more about that.

789
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, so product Gym is a career accelerator for experience

790
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 3: aspiring or experienced product managers who specifically want to learn

791
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 3: how to land higher paid product manager role. So why

792
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: I ended up landing there is because I knew I

793
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 3: didn't I didn't necessarily need general career coaching. I knew

794
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,959
Speaker 3: exactly what I wanted, I knew exactly where I wanted

795
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 3: to be, but I really felt like there weren't really

796
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 3: many resources out there that were kind of giving me

797
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 3: that specific coaching around how do you win at these

798
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,479
Speaker 3: product manager interviews? Which if anyone is out there looking

799
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 3: for product manager jobs, you know that it's its own ethos,

800
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 3: it's its own culture as it relates to, you know,

801
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 3: being able to kind of navigate those interview processes.

802
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 2: So it was it was a.

803
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 3: Pretty significant investment, but I think it was a worthwhile

804
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 3: one because it really gave me the confidence, the clarity,

805
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 3: and that push to say, okay, there's definitely more out here.

806
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: How much was it?

807
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 2: It was six thousand dollars.

808
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: Oh okay, shit, I've heard worse. I know that kind

809
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: of great and may not know. So for those who

810
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 1: are listening and who have heard and seen Sonia and others,

811
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: especially on TikTok. You know, really speaking about the possibilities

812
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: in product management to find for people who are listening,

813
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: what is a product manager? And then you mentioned the

814
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: particulars of the interview process. Any tips that you can

815
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: share for how to navigate that or what maybe there

816
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 1: are what's different about applying for those PM roles.

817
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you know, in a nutshell, a product manager

818
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 3: is really that person that's thinking about an end to

819
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 3: end customer experience and building the best experience for their.

820
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: Subset of users.

821
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 3: So, as a product manager, you could be owning any

822
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 3: type of products. Right. Product does not just have to

823
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 3: be a physical item. It could be a software, it

824
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 3: could be an app, it could be a digital platform.

825
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 2: Right.

826
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 3: So as a product manager, I have worked on financial products, right,

827
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 3: like credit cards. That was the very first product that

828
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 3: I owned at AMES. I owned the American Express Gold card.

829
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 3: So what that meant is every step of that customer

830
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 3: journey from someone applying for this card, through using it

831
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 3: and even as they consider closing that account. Right, as

832
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 3: a product manager, I was thinking about all the steps

833
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 3: in that process deliver the best customer experience. I would

834
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 3: say when it comes to interviewing for product management jobs,

835
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 3: especially if you don't have that true PM experience, I

836
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 3: think think about any time that you have been able

837
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 3: to either create something from scratch or significantly improve a process,

838
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 3: and what were those outcomes. That's what a product manager

839
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 3: is doing. So, whether you've worked in a classroom, you've

840
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 3: worked in healthcare, you worked in social services, you worked

841
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 3: in other types of business, I think we all can

842
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 3: think about those moments where we've said, hey, there's something

843
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 3: really wrong with this process, here's how I would improve it,

844
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 3: here's how I'm going to improve it, and here are

845
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 3: the outcomes. I think the more that you have those

846
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 3: examples to be able to speak to even if you

847
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 3: don't have this quote unquote PM true experience, I think

848
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 3: that's what many of the hiring managers that are hiring

849
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 3: for product managers are looking for. Can you really kind

850
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 3: of dig your hands into something that might be complex

851
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 3: or it might be kind of broken, offer new solutions

852
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 3: and then be able to create a new path forward.

853
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 1: Do they commonly give you those like case studies, like

854
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,720
Speaker 1: here's a situation, you know, what would you I've seen them?

855
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I would say as a product manager, you

856
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 3: can be very on the technical side, and I think

857
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 3: especially as you think about some especially as you kind

858
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 3: of look at more tech companies, you might have more

859
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 3: case studies or more.

860
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 2: Product exercises, but there are.

861
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 3: Plenty of business focused teams that need product managers where

862
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 3: your interview process might just be behavioral. It might just

863
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 3: be tell me about a time when it might just

864
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 3: be Hey, our clients are XYZ. How would you approach

865
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 3: the scenario?

866
00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: Right?

867
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 3: Where you don't necessarily have to be able to create

868
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 3: or build something from scratch, You don't have to be

869
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 3: able to explain code, but can you explain how you

870
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,439
Speaker 3: would approach a situation and how you would bring your

871
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 3: skills to the situation. There are plenty of business product

872
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 3: managers that don't code, that don't have technical backgrounds. Right,

873
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 3: You've heard a lot about my experience. I don't have

874
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 3: any certificates, I'm not PMP certified, I don't have any

875
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 3: of those more technical certifications or qualifications. But I've built things, right,

876
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 3: I can talk about the things that I've built. I

877
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 3: can talk about how I think about approaching new or

878
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 3: difficult situations. And I think that's what's kind of kept

879
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 3: me going on this process and what's made me stand

880
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 3: out even in interview processes.

881
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, and do you have a particular opinion about the

882
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: whole PMP certification. I can't tell you how many people

883
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 1: I've seen considering it while they're kind of throwing everything

884
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: at the wall in terms of pivoting into a different career.

885
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, My short opinion is that I think they can

886
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 3: be very fruitful if they are aligned with the jobs

887
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 3: you actually want.

888
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 2: Right.

889
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 3: So, if you are looking for job descriptions that are

890
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 3: not mentioning PMP, they're not mentioning any certifications you don't

891
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 3: necessarily want to be a technical product owner, for example,

892
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 3: then it may not be worth your time, Right, It

893
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 3: might be it might be better to invest that time

894
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 3: in learning how to interview with confidence, learning how to

895
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 3: brand yourself, spending time connecting with other product managers.

896
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: Right, Because as you've just.

897
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 3: Heard, my first you know, four years that I spent

898
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 3: as a product manager have come through me just having

899
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 3: relationships with people who are inside companies looking to hire.

900
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: Right.

901
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 3: So if I had spent so much more time thinking about,

902
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,479
Speaker 3: oh I don't have these certificates, I might have missed

903
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 3: out on the opportunity to build relationships, build connections with

904
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 3: people who could have just gotten me right into an

905
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 3: interview process.

906
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you mentioned branding, and I love talking about

907
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: professional branding for you and I and you went through

908
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: the product gem's course or what was like a program

909
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: curriculum accelerator. You said, right, what were some of the

910
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: turning points for you you think in your interview strategy,

911
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: because it sounds to me like that was. Will you

912
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: tell me, you know, what was it that finally broke

913
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: for you where you were finally kind of hitting those

914
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 1: callbacks to interviews and eventually getting your you know, your

915
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: job offer.

916
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was.

917
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 3: I think there are a couple of things. I think

918
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 3: one of mindset shifts to say, there is such a

919
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 3: high demand, especially right now for product managers.

920
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: Even if I.

921
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 3: Don't get this one job, red rejection is redirection, right,

922
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 3: I'm gonna land somewhere else, right that there's just so

923
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 3: much out here. I think two was through product I'm

924
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 3: really learning to apply at scale, right. So I think

925
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 3: when I was doing it myself, I was trying to

926
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 3: update my resume every time I was applying to jobs,

927
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 3: trying to be super picky about what I applied to

928
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 3: and I really learned through their curriculum how to apply

929
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 3: at scale so that I could put out twenty five

930
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 3: applications a day, right, which meant I was getting a

931
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 3: lot more interviews. Right instead of kind of focusing in

932
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 3: on these like five or so I spending all this

933
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 3: time focusing on a handful, I'm going to focus on

934
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 3: twenty five fifty seventy five a week, right, which means

935
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 3: I have more interviews, more opportunities to land and offer.

936
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 3: And I think the last thing was really even as

937
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 3: someone like me who was an experienced PM, I really

938
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 3: had to I think, redefine and refocus my skills so

939
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 3: that I was also rising to the top of when

940
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 3: recruiters were looking for product managers, especially online like LinkedIn right.

941
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 3: So there were things that I didn't even know that

942
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 3: I could do, for example with my branding online, like

943
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 3: to call out a lot of the skills that I had,

944
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,720
Speaker 3: for example on LinkedIn right, and to really like crystallize

945
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 3: some of the things that I had done and show

946
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 3: results because then, I mean at the peak of when

947
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 3: I was interviewing, I was probably receiving in mails from

948
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 3: like three to five recruiters a day, right, Like, that's

949
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 3: how much my profile was standing out because I'd made

950
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 3: more of these strategic choices around how I talk about myself,

951
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 3: how I show up right, how do I just kind

952
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 3: of really show any recruiter that's time for product managers

953
00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 3: that yes, I need to be in your interview cycle.

954
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 3: So those are a lot of things that I learned

955
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:03,439
Speaker 3: through Product Jim that I definitely feel like I wasn't

956
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 3: doing well on my own and I think.

957
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 2: That's what gave me that confidence.

958
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 3: That's what kind of gave me that momentum again that

959
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 3: ultimately helped me land the offer that I landed.

960
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 2: And you know it.

961
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 3: I will say also as part of partis to them

962
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 3: curriculum is that, hey, getting one offer isn't enough, Like

963
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 3: it's great to have multiple offers to be able leverage against.

964
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's great advice for anyone, Right,

965
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 3: But I was pretty happy with the offer that I received,

966
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 3: so I decided not to keep interviewing.

967
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: But I remember when I kind of announced.

968
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 3: Hey, I got this great offer, one of the co

969
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 3: founders was like, Okay, are you going to keep interviewing? Like,

970
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 3: cause you don't have to stop interviewing, you know, like,

971
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 3: why don't you keep going right? But I think for me,

972
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 3: I was honestly just kind of ready to.

973
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 2: Focus on someone else. I had been at it for

974
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 2: a while.

975
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And also you had the driver of kind

976
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: of being in a situation that you wanted to get

977
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: out of. So I mean, there's all the advice in

978
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: the world, but ultimately it's like sitting down with yourself

979
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: and do I feel ready? And is it right for me?

980
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 1: And I feel like you could never go wrong, you

981
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 1: know when you're doing that for what's right for you. Well, Sonia,

982
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: it has been such a pleasure having you on Brown Ambition.

983
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: Thanks for letting me pepper you with questions.

984
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 2: This is such a great interview.

985
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for your time, and I'm so

986
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 3: glad that we got to spread this message for more

987
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 3: women to hear that. You know, there is no shame

988
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 3: in taking control of your career. There's no shame in

989
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 3: asking for more and getting what you deserve.

990
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: Hey Man's sister friend All right, nine to five hotties,

991
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to this interview with Sonia.

992
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: Go to Fly danced on ig check her out. Where

993
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: else can people find you?

994
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 2: I'm everywhere.

995
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 3: I'm on ig TikTok, Twitter, and you can also find

996
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 3: my website flinance dot com. And yeah, I would love

997
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 3: to know if you heard me on the Brown Ambitious Podcast.

998
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 2: DM me and let me know.

999
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 1: Maybe find you on a beach somewhere. Hey, ba fam,

1000
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 1: We could not do this show without your support or

1001
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,439
Speaker 1: the support of our team behind the scenes. The Brown

1002
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: Ambition Podcast is produced by Cumulus podcas Cast Network. It's

1003
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: edited by the wonderful Imani Crosby and produced by Tanya Bustos.

1004
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 1: Dennis Stimplinsky is our in house tech curu, and I

1005
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,879
Speaker 1: am Bandy Woodard Santos, your co host, and I will

1006
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 1: see y'all next week.