1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law. 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 2: What does a prosecutor have to prove in order to 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 2: get a Rico conviction? Tell us why this Solicitor General 4 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:12,319 Speaker 2: is sometimes referred to as the tenth Justice. 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: Interviews with prominent attorneys in Bloomberg Legal experts. 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 2: That's Jennifer k for Bloomberg Law. Joining me is former 7 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 2: federal prosecutor Robert Minn. 8 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: And analysis of important legal issues, cases and headlines. 9 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 2: It is the toughest hurtle for prosecutors proving Trump's intent. 10 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 2: Alito took on Congress saying Congress has no power to 11 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: regulate the Supreme Court. 12 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. 13 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 3: Welcome to Bloomberg Law. I'm Amie Morrison, Washington and for 14 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 3: June Grosso. June will be back next week. Now. Today, 15 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 3: we'll learn more about the case against TikTok and with 16 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 3: driving the push to get byte Dance to divest. We'll 17 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 3: also look at the Kroger Albertson's merger and the government's 18 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 3: fight to block that. But first, generative artificial intelligence has 19 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 3: radically transformed the world of digital images. You want to 20 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 3: make a website or a video, you can use an 21 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 3: AI program to quickly convert your idea into an image, 22 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 3: but you could also be unwittingly risking copyright infringement. Let's 23 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 3: bring in Brian Moriarty. He has a principle at Hamilton 24 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 3: Brooks Smith Reynolds and specializes in intellectual property law and counseling. 25 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 3: He wrote a column about this for Bloomberg Lawn and 26 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 3: he joins us. Now, Brian, thank you so much for 27 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 3: joining us. Let's see if I understand this. When we're 28 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 3: talking about AI and images. The new image that I 29 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 3: and my AI might have created can't be copyrighted because 30 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 3: the AI is not human. But that same image might 31 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 3: also violate a copyright because of how the AI may 32 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 3: have acquired it, and I might be unwittingly liable for that. 33 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 3: Is that about right? 34 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 4: That's that's completely right. And that was the point of 35 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 4: the article, which is you think to yourself, well I can, 36 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 4: and there's the AI machine that I use. 37 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 5: I'm very visually oriented. 38 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 4: I like to create images, you know, partly because I'm 39 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 4: a trial lawyer. 40 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 5: I like to use exhibits. I like to communicate with images. 41 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 4: So you can say, show me Snoopy and Charlie Brown 42 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 4: walking in the in the fall with leaves falling, and 43 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 4: they will produce an image that may look just like 44 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 4: Charlie Brown and Snoopy and you think, oh, that's cool. 45 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 5: Everyone loves Snoopy and Charlie Brown. I'll use this image. 46 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 4: Well that's where you have to stop what you're doing, 47 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 4: because you will know that Charles Schultz and his empire, 48 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 4: whoever owns Peanuts now has copyrights on every Charlie Brown image, 49 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 4: every Snoopy image, and there are you know we can 50 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 4: all actually envision in our mind. Oh yeah, I remember 51 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 4: a picture of Charlie Brown and Snoopy with the great 52 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 4: pumpkin patch and I think they were walking in the 53 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 4: field and there was all these cool leaves, maybe they 54 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 4: were in watercolor. And you said you, oh gosh, my 55 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 4: new AI am it just looks just like that. And 56 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 4: you say, just like that that those aren't the legal 57 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 4: words of copyright infringement, but that is copyright infringement. 58 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 3: Well let me stop you right there. What if you 59 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 3: had gotten asked AI to do an image of Charlie 60 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 3: Brown water skiing. I'm almost positive I've never seen that before. 61 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 3: Does that still infringe? 62 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 4: It probably would if it's Charlie Brown because what cartoon 63 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 4: images that are famous probably have broader rights than work 64 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 4: by an unknown author because they have a certain equity 65 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 4: in them, if you will, Because people, when you look 66 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 4: at the image, the first thing you say is that's 67 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 4: Charlie Brown water skiing. You don't say that's that's a 68 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 4: picture of a boy water skiing. 69 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 5: Interesting. 70 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 2: I like it. 71 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 4: You're you're going to focus on Charlie Brown and that 72 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 4: Charlie Brown is copyrighted. 73 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 5: But the issue for us is more of a business 74 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 5: point of view. 75 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 4: If you're a water skiing company and you're going to 76 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 4: start a marketing campaign and you have this picture of 77 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 4: Charlie Brown water skiing, well you may get suited for that. 78 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 3: Now that AI has entered the picture, that adds a 79 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 3: new facet to this. How has that changed things for 80 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 3: you as someone who specializes in this kind of thing? 81 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 3: Does it make it more complicated? Does it really tangle 82 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 3: things up for the person who is unwittingly infringing on copyrightsyes? 83 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 4: Well, first of all, a copyright is actually in the 84 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 4: US constitution right, and it had a long history of 85 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 4: that in the English common law. No copyright rights have 86 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 4: been around, as you say, forever, But. 87 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 5: It changes, It changes. 88 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 4: The copyright picture because people will now use this. It's 89 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 4: a fun new toy and it's very very useful. We 90 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 4: can all create images for our business purposes without hiring 91 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 4: an artist. We don't have to pay some artists to 92 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 4: do it, and we we don't really need need. 93 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 5: Permission from anyone. And so we make these rights. 94 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 4: And there's a there's a whole industry out there that 95 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 4: you probably don't know about. These are some people. 96 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 5: Call them patrol lawyers, and. 97 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 4: They'll they'll and it's particularly prominent in the area of 98 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 4: photography and images. They will sue you without any notice 99 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 4: or warning that you've engaged. 100 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 5: In copyright infringement. 101 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 4: If you take pictures from somebody and you publish them, 102 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 4: you can be liable for copyright infringement and so but 103 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 4: AI is, you know, will make more images, more available, 104 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 4: more often. So this industry of copyright trol lawyers is 105 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 4: going to keep busy and keep attacking people for in lawsuits. 106 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 3: How has the law kept up with AI? Do you 107 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 3: foresee new laws coming or laws that might have to 108 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 3: change to manage these issues that come along with artificial intelligence? 109 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 3: Sort of putting our ability to post other people's work, 110 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 3: or to use other people's work and slap our name 111 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 3: on it, sort of put it in hyperdrive. So can 112 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 3: the law keep up? Does it need to keep up 113 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 3: with that? 114 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 4: Well, there's a major litigation in San Francisco now, and 115 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 4: San Francisco is probably the home of yeah, it's not probably, 116 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 4: it's the home. 117 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 5: Of AI and computers and the. 118 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 4: Whole industry, so it's appropriate that this litigation is there. 119 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 4: It's a massive litigation. There are a group of lawyers 120 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 4: suing representing authors, and they're also representing image makers. 121 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 5: These are different cases. 122 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 4: The authors are typically involved in copyright the theft of 123 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 4: their texts and their expression of ideas, and image makers 124 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 4: are more interested in the theft of their images. But 125 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 4: the court is definitely changing the lawnown and trying to 126 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 4: sort out what is really an infringement and what is not. 127 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 4: And they're very difficult issues trying to figure it out 128 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 4: that the cases we've talked about are more obvious. If 129 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 4: you go use AI to create an image of Charlie Brown, 130 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 4: you're probably going to have a major problem. If you 131 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 4: go take an image of some image of some character 132 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 4: that's in a Hollywood movie, you're going to have a 133 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 4: problem because the people that make those images protect them 134 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 4: and they go after infringers. 135 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 5: But when you take it to the next level, you're like, well, 136 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 5: Charlie Brown water. 137 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 4: Skiing the example you gave, that's not anyone's image. 138 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 5: But then you get into the problem. Everyone knows it's 139 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 5: Charlie Brown. 140 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 4: You're trading off that image of Charlie Brown, and you're 141 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 4: using it for your own purposes that I think you're 142 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 4: just Charlie Brown as stopyright Maybe the water skiing part is, 143 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 4: but his big bean head is definitely copyrighted. 144 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 5: Everyone knows what his head works like and. 145 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 4: You probably quiz like fifty people are like, yeah, I know. 146 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 4: He wears a shirt with a black zigzag stripe and 147 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 4: he's got like three hairs on his head and he 148 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 4: always looks depressed. 149 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 5: And you know, so if you do that, but the 150 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 5: laws are going to change it to question that for sure. 151 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 3: I was going to ask because we keep coming back 152 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 3: to the Charlie Brown image because it's easy. But at 153 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 3: the same time, everybody knows what it is is that 154 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 3: the bar that has to be met. 155 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 4: The test is pretty simple, is the is the alleged 156 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 4: infringing activity substantially similar to the copyrighted work. So the 157 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 4: first thing is the work has to be copyrighted. It's 158 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 4: very unsettled with just using your voice, you know, to 159 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 4: take it a step sideways here because it's easier to do. 160 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 4: There's a lot of fine artists, painters, and that there's 161 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 4: an industry where the computer looks at all their paintings 162 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 4: and says, well, this guy uses this style of bruststroke, 163 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 4: and when he uses crimson, he always uses yellow next 164 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 4: to it, and the computer, the AI computer can mimic 165 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 4: what the artist does. So they go out and sell it. 166 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 4: And they say, well, you know, we can't use an 167 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 4: old artist because like Picasso or something like that, because 168 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 4: they probably don't have copyrights anymore. But say a modern artist. 169 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,719 Speaker 4: They'll sell pictures this is in the style of artist X, 170 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 4: and people are like, oh, that's great, I love that 171 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 4: guy style. The problem is the original artist who's the 172 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 4: source of the style. He doesn't get any money, right 173 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 4: because he has no copyrights. That AI created something very 174 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 4: similar to his that's not his art, of his work, 175 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 4: but they copy his style. 176 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 5: So that's one big issue. 177 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 4: That's actually going to be litigated, is mimicking someone style 178 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 4: so closely that people believe it's him. 179 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 5: Is that copyright infringement? And right now that's an open question. 180 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 3: Wow, so this is not anywhere near complete where we've 181 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 3: got a long way to. 182 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 4: Go with this, right Well, yeah, you have, you have 183 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 4: lawyers and fighting and then you know the when you 184 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,599 Speaker 4: think about it, the real image making industry is Hollywood 185 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 4: and the media, and. 186 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 5: They put a lot of time and effort to make 187 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 5: their images. That's their business. 188 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 4: So they're not going to sit back and say, oh, well, 189 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 4: you know, he just copied it. Once you know, they 190 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 4: will fight you, as you probably know. 191 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, AI is turning into the full employment 192 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 3: plan for attorneys everywhere. 193 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, a lot of like the plaintiffs 194 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 4: in that case they call the AI infringement machines. 195 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a little bit over the top, oh wow, but. 196 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, but also keep in mind, if you know, the 197 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 4: other point is you can use AI to create images 198 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 4: nobody's ever seen before. They're not like anybody else and 199 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 4: they're yours, but you can't copyright them. 200 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:07,359 Speaker 5: Got it? 201 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 4: So it does I mean the overall view of AIS, 202 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 4: it can create a lot of new images that. 203 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 5: Don't have copyright problems. 204 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 4: The problem occurs is when they're way too similar to 205 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 4: what the prior images are. 206 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 5: And I don't know if you want to get into 207 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 5: the training set. 208 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 3: It sounds to me like as far as the law 209 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,839 Speaker 3: is concerned, this is a work definitely in progress that's 210 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 3: only just now getting started. And from what you've tell 211 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 3: me and set me straight if I'm wrong about this, 212 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 3: it sounds like the legal profession is beginning to realize 213 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 3: that AI is going to change at least a chunk 214 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 3: of how the laws work because of the speed and 215 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 3: the efficiency and the way that AI works in its 216 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 3: own in its own right. 217 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 5: You follow me, Yeah, they'll be changes. I mean, the 218 00:11:57,760 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 5: copyright law. 219 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 4: Will be the same law, but how it's applied and 220 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 4: understood as applying to images we'll get tweaked. And the 221 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 4: courts need to create a standard that everyone understands so 222 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 4: they can use it. But they'll, you know what will happen. 223 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 4: It's in San Francisco case, maybe in a year or so, 224 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 4: they'll issue a big pronouncement about what they view the 225 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 4: law as. That'll go to the Ninth Circuit. 226 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 5: Which is the California Appeals Court. 227 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,719 Speaker 4: And then that case or similar case we'll probably go 228 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 4: to the Supreme Court will ultimately start deciding what the 229 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 4: contours of AI and copyright. 230 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 3: Are our thanks to Brian Moury, already principal at Hamilton 231 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 3: Brooks Smith Reynolds specializing in intellectual property law and counseling. 232 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 3: Coming up, TikTok's day in court and later how the 233 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 3: Kroger Albertson's challenge is redefining the grocery store. That's next 234 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 3: on Bloomberg Law. I'm Amy Morris in for June Grosso. 235 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 3: This is Bloomberg. 236 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. 237 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 3: This is Bloomberg Law. I'm Amy Morris and for June Grosso. 238 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 3: TikTok getting its day in court, a case that could 239 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 3: have big implications for the get tough on China mood 240 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 3: that is sweeping through Washington. Arguments began this past week 241 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 3: at the US Circuit Court of Appeals for the DC 242 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 3: Circuit in TikTok's challenge to a law that would ban 243 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 3: the social media app in the US unless it's Beijing 244 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 3: based parent company Byte Dance sells it. And now we 245 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 3: bring in Bloomberg Senior editor for Technology and Strategic Industries, 246 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 3: Michael Shepherd is going to set us all straight on 247 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 3: how this is going down. So, Michael, is that part 248 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 3: of the argument what we had said before, this get 249 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 3: tough on China sentiment that's helping drive this push to 250 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 3: get TikTok off of our phones unless byte Edance can 251 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 3: give it up. 252 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,959 Speaker 6: Amy, you've hit the nail on the head there. This 253 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 6: really is part of the larger concern about the national 254 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 6: security risk posed by China to the US, and in 255 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 6: this case, policy makers have been arguing for several years, 256 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 6: really dating back to the Trump administration, that TikTok poses 257 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 6: a risk to national security on two fronts. First is 258 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 6: that TikTok, which we all know and many of us love, it, 259 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 6: gathers a lot of data on its users so that 260 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 6: it can power its algorithm to very specifically tailor the 261 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 6: videos and other content that are powered directly to users. 262 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 6: That's been the secret of its success, and that data 263 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 6: is something that policy makers here in Washington fear could 264 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 6: be taken back by its Chinese owners and shared with 265 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 6: the Chinese government. The second concern is about the use 266 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 6: of the platform as a means to convey Chinese propaganda 267 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 6: to users here, maybe not directly in terms of propaganda, 268 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 6: but more subtly on various issues, say the war in 269 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 6: Ukraine or what's happening in the Mid East. The concern 270 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 6: is that China may be able to use the platform 271 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 6: to influence public opinion. 272 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 3: Here, Okay, let's break all of that down, if you 273 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 3: don't mind, let's get into the national security concerns. Let's 274 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 3: start with the propaganda. That's the last thing you mentioned. 275 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 3: Do they have any evidence that that has been happening. 276 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 3: Have they started to see any of that sort of 277 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 3: trickling out and how does that work anyway? 278 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 6: Well, that's a great question, and that is one of 279 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 6: the arguments that TikTok has been putting forth. Where is 280 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 6: the evidence, first of all, justified this law that would 281 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 6: require a divestiture by January nineteenth. That's not much time 282 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 6: to sell an entity as big as TikTok, And the 283 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 6: company has been arguing that, Wait, you in Congress, as 284 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 6: you passed this law, did not show enough evidence that 285 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 6: this kind of manipulation, either the use of data or 286 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 6: misuse of data, was happening, or that there was some 287 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 6: sort of fiddling with the algorithm to favor China's government 288 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 6: one way or another. Saying that evidence wasn't there. However, 289 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 6: there were classified hearings held in Congress where members of 290 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 6: the administration from the national security community briefed members of Congress, 291 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 6: and members of Congress emerge from those meetings and said, yeah, 292 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 6: we really need to act. However, that evidence was never 293 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 6: really shared publicly in a public forum. For national security concerns. 294 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 6: You know, there are sources and methods that the government 295 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 6: wants to protect, and in court, the Justice Department filings 296 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 6: that refer to this evidence they've been redacted. So the 297 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 6: question is what will the public get to see and 298 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 6: how much of that will actually fully be shared in court. 299 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 3: It sounds like there are a lot of geopolitical implications 300 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 3: here anyway, that part of the broader struggle over tech 301 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 3: between the US and China, and this is a big 302 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 3: chunk of it. Does this just represent the bigger mountain 303 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 3: or is this the mountain? 304 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 6: This is part of the mountain. That's a good way 305 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 6: to put it, because there are so many areas where 306 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 6: the world's two largest economies, the US and China, are 307 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 6: compete in terms of technology, but also in terms of 308 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 6: just globally, in the Pacific Rim, in the Global South, 309 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:14,239 Speaker 6: and we see it, for instance, in hard technology like 310 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 6: semiconductors and other sensitive equipment, you know, some of the 311 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 6: components that would go into electric vehicles. The US is 312 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 6: looking into restricting the presence of Chinese products for electric 313 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 6: vehicles into the US. So all of this fits into 314 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 6: the larger challenge and competition between the US and China 315 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 6: right now. 316 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 3: And you had mentioned that this dates back to the 317 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 3: Trump administration when he first started talking about TikTok being 318 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 3: a threat to national security. I remember that have we 319 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 3: seen issues about this before the Trump administration or is 320 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 3: TikTok a relatively new on this scene. 321 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 6: TikTok's relatively new on the scene, and it caught the 322 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 6: administration's eye around twenty nineteen, twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, and 323 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 6: members of Congress also started paying attention. And it was 324 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 6: late in the Trump presidency that he actually signed an 325 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 6: executive order seeking to ban TikTok. However, that was voided 326 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 6: in court because lawyers for the company were able to 327 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 6: successfully argue that the president lacked the authority to be 328 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 6: able to issue and carry out that executive order. The 329 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 6: order wasn't written well enough to survive a court challenge, 330 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 6: and Similarly, the state of Montana also attempted to ban 331 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 6: the app that too, was overturned in court. What they've 332 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 6: tried to do with the law as written in Congress 333 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 6: and passed as part of a broader foreign aid package 334 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 6: in April, they have tried to make sure it was 335 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 6: sound enough to survive a challenge on First Amendment grounds 336 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 6: as we're seeing unfold now. 337 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 3: Well, that's what I wanted to ask about. Do they 338 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 3: have the company by dance? Does it have a legitimate 339 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 3: First Amendment argument? 340 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 6: That was an issue that came up in court pretty vigorously, 341 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 6: and the arguments from TikTok's lawyers were greeted with some 342 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 6: skepticism by the three judge panel here at the court 343 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 6: in Washington. One of the questions that came up was, well, 344 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 6: if it's is it really a Chinese company or is 345 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 6: it an American company? And if it's a Chinese company 346 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 6: doesn't have the same legal protections. That was one of 347 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 6: the questions that came up, and one of the judges 348 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 6: was musing about, you know how far these protections extend 349 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 6: to an entity that is in essence tied to a 350 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 6: foreign adversary, in this case China. The US government lawyers 351 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 6: also were subject to some tough questioning, and what they 352 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 6: wanted to emphasize is that they were not going after 353 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 6: a specific company an entity. They were going after the 354 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 6: actions and the conduct, and their concern is that because 355 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 6: of the Chinese ownership and the potential ties to Beijing 356 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 6: and the risk of China's government stepping in and asking 357 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 6: for data and somehow using the platform, it is really 358 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 6: more those actions that is causing the US to call 359 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 6: for a divestiture. And short of that, if they can't 360 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 6: sell the company, then the app needs to be banned 361 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 6: here in the US. 362 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 3: When you talk about divestiture, and I think I've heard 363 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 3: you talk about this before on Bloomberg Radio, and that 364 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 3: is how Byteedance would divest itself from TikTok, would actually 365 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 3: destroy TikTok. It would have to because of the algorithm. 366 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 6: Right, Well, that's it. And you know, in a normal sale, 367 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 6: you would take, you know, all the parts that make 368 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 6: up the company and sell them to the buyer. But 369 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 6: in this case, the company at least is arguing that 370 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 6: its algorithm is inextricably linked with the parent company byte Dance, 371 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 6: So you can't really disentangle the TikTok algorithm from byte Dance, 372 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 6: and the Chinese government has also said, look our best technology, 373 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 6: and in this case, the algorithm is quite sophisticated in advance, 374 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 6: when you know, compared to social media. Appears they don't 375 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 6: want to see that sol because just on an economic basis, 376 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 6: it can be quite lucrative and effective in doing what 377 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 6: it does to be able to reach users out there. 378 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 3: So what came from the most recent hearing on this 379 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 3: our sense was. 380 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 6: That the judges looked at this skeptically. And one of 381 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:35,239 Speaker 6: our colleagues on Bloomberg Intelligence, Matchettleheim, his view was that 382 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 6: it was not a great day for TikTok in court 383 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 6: and it doesn't augur well for them to be able 384 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 6: to prevail and overturning the law. And now that's not 385 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 6: a guarantee. This is really based on the way the 386 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 6: questioning unfolded during the hearing. But our reporters, you know, 387 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 6: certainly heard all those exchanges and came away with the 388 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 6: sense that the judges were much more more skeptical of 389 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 6: the Byte Dance and TikTok arguments and the governments. 390 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm just going to lay it all out there. 391 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 3: I don't have TikTok on my phone. I think I've 392 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 3: aged out. Basically, TikTok really does appeal to the younger set, 393 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 3: does it not. 394 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 6: It really does, And in fact, what's interesting is that TikTok, 395 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 6: when you go out and do a public opinion survey, 396 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 6: as Pew Research just did, it does hold a wide appeal. 397 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 6: Seventeen percent of people in the US get their news 398 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 6: from TikTok. That's what they say a new study that 399 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 6: just came out, and from a year ago, we're seeing 400 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 6: far fewer people supporting a ban. Only thirty two percent 401 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 6: of people in the US now support a ban, and 402 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 6: that's down from fifty percent a couple of years ago, 403 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 6: also according to Pew. So we're seeing the popularity and 404 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 6: it's appeal with younger users is something that has caught 405 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 6: the attention of the political campaigns. Former President Donald Trump 406 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 6: has his own TikTok account, which he has been using. 407 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 6: Vice President Kamala Harris over the summer launched her TikTok 408 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 6: account in connection with her campaign, and even even President 409 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 6: Joe Biden, while he was still running and had his 410 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 6: campaign going, had a campaign version of TikTok. They know 411 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 6: that it is a way to reach that coveted demographic 412 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 6: of younger voters whose enthusiasm really could make a difference 413 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 6: in the November election. 414 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 3: Doesn't that tangle this up a lot more? Though, when 415 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 3: you have those world leaders you just mentioned using TikTok, 416 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 3: this app that they may have to enforce a ban 417 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 3: of in this country, while they have the younger sect 418 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 3: of their constituents loving the app, not wanting it to 419 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 3: go away. And then at the same time, it looks 420 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 3: like the app is really facing some legal challenges that 421 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 3: it's not going to be able to meet. 422 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 6: It is wrapped up in so many contradictions, and Donald 423 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 6: Trump himself presents that because as president, he signed the 424 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 6: executive order saying he would ban it. More recently, he 425 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 6: has come out and even told our reporters during an 426 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 6: interview we had with him over the summer, he no 427 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 6: longer supports a ban on the app, and in part 428 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 6: it's because he sees it as a viable competitor to 429 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 6: meta platforms offerings of Facebook and Instagram. But you really 430 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 6: do see the challenge that these top level policy makers have. 431 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 6: They don't want to alienate a younger part of the population, 432 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 6: and the electorate, but at the same time they have 433 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 6: to respond to and acknowledge and national security risk. So 434 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 6: the way the Biden administration officials and including the Vice 435 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 6: President have put it, look, we don't want to ban TikTok. 436 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 6: We want TikTok to be up and running and serving 437 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 6: all the users here in the US, but it needs 438 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:54,719 Speaker 6: to be sold. 439 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 3: Is this heading to the Supreme Court? 440 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 6: Kind of all but certain it is written in the 441 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 6: stars that it will head to the Supreme Court. The 442 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 6: company and the Justice Department have asked the Seppellate Court 443 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 6: in Washington to rule by December sixth, so that there's 444 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 6: enough time for one side or the other to be 445 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 6: able to make an appeal to the nation's top court. 446 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 6: And you would see it center around this fight over 447 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 6: national security versus the First Amendment protections. 448 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 3: What a mess? Indeed, all right, Bloomberg Senior editor for 449 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,719 Speaker 3: Technology and Strategic Industries, Michael Sheppard, thank you so much 450 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 3: for joining us. Thank you Coming up now that a 451 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 3: judge has ruled Google's search engine a monopoly. What happens next? 452 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 3: That's just ahead on Bloomberg Law. I'm Amy Morris and 453 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 3: for June Grosso, and this is Bloomberg. 454 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. 455 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 3: This is Bloomberg Law. I'm Ami Morris in Washington. June 456 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 3: Grosso is off and a federal judge in DC last 457 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 3: month ruled Google search engine is an illegal monopoly after 458 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 3: a ten week trial. Prosecutors alleged that Google paid billions 459 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 3: of dollars to companies like Apple and Samsung and Mozilla 460 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 3: to be the default search engine on their devices. Now 461 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 3: this is expected to impact Google and how competition may 462 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 3: work on the Internet. The Justice Department is considering what 463 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 3: punishment to ask for, including whether to break up Google. 464 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 3: Bloomberg legal team leader in Washington, Sarah Forden, joins us. 465 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 3: Now kind of straighten it all up for us, Sarah, 466 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 3: thank you so much for joining us. 467 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 7: Thank you for having me. 468 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 3: Can the Justice Department break up Google? 469 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 7: So the Justice Department is currently pondering what remedies to 470 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 7: usk the judge to impose, and they are scheduled to 471 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 7: make a filing where they will lay out to the 472 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 7: judge what they think needs to be done, and then 473 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:56,959 Speaker 7: the judge is in a hold a hearing. So this 474 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 7: is a whole second phase of the trial. That's going 475 00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 7: to start next year, and one of the options on 476 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 7: the table is to ask for a breakup, so it 477 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 7: could be something like breaking off Chrome or breaking off Android, 478 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 7: but there are other options that they're also considering. They're 479 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 7: very interested in all the data that Google gets from 480 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 7: these search searches, and they are compiling all of our 481 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 7: data and running it through their machines, and that is 482 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 7: one of the reasons why they're the better search engine, 483 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,360 Speaker 7: for example, because the other search engines have not been 484 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 7: able over time to accumulate the same quantities of data 485 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 7: that Google has. So one option that they're looking at 486 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 7: is looking at whether Google could be forced to license 487 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 7: the data to other search engines or share it with 488 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 7: other search engines. So there may be some innovative proposals 489 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 7: coming on the table from them. 490 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 3: So every time this is a little sidebar, but every 491 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 3: time we do a search on Google, they're gathering data 492 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 3: on us. 493 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 7: Absolutely. I mean, the data has really been at the 494 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 7: center of a lot of the agreements that Google has 495 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 7: signed over the years, and they've been working on this 496 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 7: for over a decade. They had exclusive contracts with news publishers. 497 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 7: The contract at the heart of this search case is 498 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,719 Speaker 7: a contract with Apple, so that every time that somebody 499 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 7: certainly makes a search on their iPhone, all that data 500 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 7: goes to Google. 501 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 3: So does apphabet slash Google? Do they have any recourse 502 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,719 Speaker 3: when it comes to this? Do they have appeals? Or 503 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 3: is this a done deal? And now they're just waiting 504 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 3: for sentencing so to speak. 505 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 7: So they can appeal it. And one of the issues 506 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 7: that is going to be addressed is whether they need 507 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 7: to wait until the whole process is finished, including a remedy, 508 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 7: or whether they can appeal it preemptively before a remedy 509 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 7: is put into place. 510 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 3: Okay, so this is still very definitely active, very active. Yes, 511 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 3: what about the tech companies that Google did have those 512 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 3: contracts with you mentioned Apple, Do they have a role 513 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 3: in all of this as far as could they be 514 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 3: held somehow liable or something? 515 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 7: So they're not complicated in this case, but they you know, 516 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 7: they were getting twenty billion dollars a year from Google 517 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 7: to have them as their as their default search engines, 518 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 7: So certainly there's there's a monetary implication if that deal 519 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 7: gets unwound. 520 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 3: This sounds like a mess, Sarah. 521 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 7: So this this is really a landmark ruling that has 522 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 7: the potential to redraw a lot of the dynamics in 523 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 7: the online marketplace. So it's going to be very interesting 524 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 7: to see, as you point out, not only what happens 525 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 7: to Google and whether it has to be broken up 526 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 7: or shared its data, but what happens to Apple, what 527 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 7: happens to Samsung and some of the other companies that 528 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 7: had deals with Google. It could also offer new opportunities 529 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 7: for companies like Bing for example, which Microsoft, you know, 530 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 7: poured millions of dollars into Bing and never really got 531 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 7: it off the ground. But if this case opens up, 532 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 7: you know, access to data for being or or browsers 533 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 7: like Duck, dut Go, Mozilla. So there there there's a 534 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 7: potential for this to spa actually a new kind of 535 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 7: cadre of competitors in the search space. 536 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 3: So the idea is to level the playing field as 537 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 3: much as possible, even though Google has owned the playing 538 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 3: field for so long. Exactly is this what happens when 539 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 3: a company becomes so big and ubiquitous? Google is a verb, 540 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 3: of course, I mean, it's in our regular lexicon. So 541 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 3: is this the sort of thing that happens when a 542 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 3: company becomes so big and so ubiquitous? Or is this 543 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 3: how a company becomes so big and so ubiquitous that 544 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 3: figured it out. 545 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 7: That's a great question. I would say both they figured 546 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 7: it out. They were able to evade any kind of regulation. 547 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 7: You know, the FTC opened an investigation into into Google 548 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 7: in twenty eleven, but that was shut down three years 549 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 7: later with no recourse. It was a voluntary settlement. So 550 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 7: you know, if you trace back the roots of this 551 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 7: case that we're talking about right now, it goes back 552 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 7: even to that period and the things that Google was 553 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 7: able to do after it had escaped scrutiny, you know, 554 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 7: putting more products, searches in front of consumers, you know, 555 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 7: rechanging all of their reviews. They were scraping data from Yelp. 556 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 7: So they really had kind of a free reign over 557 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 7: the Internet. 558 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 3: What are you watching for in this case? What's the 559 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 3: next step that's going to happen? 560 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 7: So now we're watching the second trial. So it's interesting that, 561 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 7: you know, we have the landmark ruling and the Search case, 562 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 7: but the Justice Department broke broke the Google investigation, which 563 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 7: was a massive one, into two parts. And the first part, 564 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 7: which was the Search case, was actually filed by former 565 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 7: Attorney General Bill Barr under Trump. And so that's the 566 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 7: case that we have the remedy hearings coming up on. 567 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 7: The second case looks at the digital advertising market and 568 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 7: it looks at how Google owns all the tools that 569 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 7: underlie the display advertising market. And so that is actually 570 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 7: ongoing right now in a federal court in Alexander, Virginia, 571 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 7: and that case would last probably another week or ten days. 572 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 3: It is not lost on me, nor is it lost 573 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 3: probably on our audience that this is such a massive 574 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 3: antitrust case that it had to be broken up into 575 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 3: two things, searches and ads. That speaks to how big 576 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 3: this truly is. 577 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 7: Yeah, and they're related too, because some of the ad 578 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 7: tools also are connected to the search process. So the 579 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 7: dj is looking to show proof to the judge that 580 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 7: Google not only has a monopoly we would say chokehold 581 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 7: over how these ads are placed, but that each of 582 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 7: the three tools that create that pipeline are monopolies in 583 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 7: their own right. So it's a very interesting case. They've 584 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 7: called more than thirty witnesses in just two weeks, and 585 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,719 Speaker 7: we're preparing to hear now Google's side of the story. 586 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 3: Okay, we're going to shift gears now from cyberspace to 587 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 3: brick and mortar. Speaking of big companies, a merger pending 588 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 3: between Kroger and Albertson's a little bit more down to earth, 589 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 3: but still huge, twenty billion dollar merger creating an enormous, 590 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 3: I don't know, grocery store enterprise. It's going to create 591 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 3: this enormous behemoth where we can shop. How is this 592 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 3: redefining the concept of the grocery store. 593 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 7: So this is the biggest supermarket merger ever. Most of 594 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 7: the grocery store brands that you're familiar with would becoming 595 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 7: under one roof. The FTC has sued to block it, 596 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 7: saying that it's anti competitive and there are several things 597 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 7: at the heart of this case, but they're really looking 598 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 7: at how do we define a grocery store. So the 599 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 7: FTC is arguing that this is a merger of what 600 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 7: we call traditional grocery stores, which is your one stop 601 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 7: shop where you can go and buy everything from milk 602 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 7: to produce to dry goods. The companies are arguing that 603 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 7: there's so many other places now where people shop that 604 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 7: it's unfair to call this an uncompetitive merger. So you 605 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 7: can buy milk at a seven to eleven, you can 606 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 7: you can buy you know, you can join a club 607 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 7: like a Costcos, you can go to Walmart. So so 608 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 7: one of the first things that judge is going to 609 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 7: have to decide is what's the definition of the market 610 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 7: And that's really key to any any an a trust trial. 611 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 3: Oh wow, So what is the government's concerned then with this? 612 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 3: If we could, if I could buy my milk down 613 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 3: at the seven eleven without having to go to a 614 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 3: Kroger Albertson's behemoth, what what is their concern? 615 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 7: So the biggest concern is really what's happening in regional 616 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 7: markets and it's it's so uh, the implications are so 617 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 7: serious that we also have several states that have filed 618 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 7: their own lawsuits. So for example, in Washington State and Colorado, 619 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 7: the attorney's general attorney generals in those states have filed 620 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 7: their own lawsuits because it means that you might have 621 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 7: rural communities where you have, you know, an Albertson's on 622 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 7: one corner, Safeway on another, and if if these companies merge, 623 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 7: one of those would probably go away. 624 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 3: And creating food deserts is that you could have food deserts. 625 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 7: You can have no breaks on price increases, if they 626 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 7: all belong to the same owner. And so the concern 627 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,359 Speaker 7: is that this could actually be really bad for consumers 628 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 7: in some of the most remote areas where they would 629 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 7: maybe have to drive, you know, sixty miles to buy 630 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:19,439 Speaker 7: a gallon of milk. 631 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 3: So they're not only concerned about the prices for the consumers, 632 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 3: but then I would think the paychecks for the people 633 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 3: who work there also. 634 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,760 Speaker 7: And this is one of the first cases that also 635 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 7: defines unionized labor as a market and so, and this 636 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 7: is really kind of a part of the FTC's expanded 637 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 7: focus and I trust focus to include labor issues. And 638 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 7: they're saying that it makes it harder for unions to 639 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 7: negotiate for their contracts if these companies come under one roof. 640 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 3: So what happens next, is this ever going to come 641 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 3: to fruition. 642 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 7: So what we just saw wrap up in Portland, Oregon, 643 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 7: it was actually a preliminary hearing. So the FTC had 644 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 7: filed to a federal judge to keep the two companies 645 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 7: separate while they then pursue their own trial in their 646 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 7: in house court, which is scheduled for later on. But 647 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 7: de facto, this preliminary hearing becomes kind of a mini trial, 648 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 7: you know, it's like a trial in a bottle, because 649 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 7: both sides call witnesses, they present evidence, and then if 650 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 7: the judge, if the judge grants this preliminary injunction, that 651 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 7: means that the companies won't be able to close, and 652 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 7: it could effectively scuttle the deal because it would take 653 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 7: so long to get through. Then the FTC's administrative trial 654 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 7: that their way past their deadline for the deal. If 655 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 7: the judge grants the preliminary injunction, I mean doesn't grant 656 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,399 Speaker 7: the preliminary injunction and decides that the companies are free 657 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 7: to close, then that makes it much harder for the 658 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 7: FTC to prevail at their own trial. 659 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,359 Speaker 3: So if the judge doesn't act fast enough and this 660 00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 3: is a done, this is dead in the water. Anyway, 661 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 3: exactly what's going to happen? 662 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 7: Sarah, Well, it's also complicated because there are two other 663 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 7: trials that are going to play out. We've got the 664 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 7: trial in Washington State that's brought by the Washington Attorney 665 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 7: General and the one in Colorado. So there's a lot 666 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 7: writing against this deal right now. 667 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 3: Okay, So not only would it be the biggest merger ever, 668 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 3: in the history of grocery stores and in that industry. 669 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 3: And not only do you have the federal government bearing 670 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 3: down on them, but you also have states as well. 671 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 7: You have states as well, exactly, And it's also proven 672 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,439 Speaker 7: to be a very expensive deal for the companies. They've 673 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 7: spent over eight hundred million dollars already just in you know, 674 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 7: their efforts to try to get this deal done. 675 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 3: So I wonder what's on the other side of this 676 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 3: deal that makes it worth spending that much money and 677 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 3: that much time. 678 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 7: Well, I mean, the companies argue that they'll be much 679 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 7: more efficient. They will be. They are also saying they're 680 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 7: not going to raise prices, They're saying they're not going 681 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 7: to close stores, they're not going to fire workers. So 682 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 7: for them, it's it's really about economies of scale and 683 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 7: becoming bigger and more efficient. 684 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 3: Okay, we're going to check in with you again about this. 685 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 3: This is too much, too interesting. Thank you so much, Sarah. 686 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 3: Thank you, Bloomberg Legal team leader Sarah forden Our. Thanks 687 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 3: also to Bloomberg Senior editor for Technology and Strategic Industries, 688 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 3: Michael Sheppard and Brian Moriarty with Hamilton Brooks Smith Reynolds 689 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,919 Speaker 3: and that does it. For today's edition of Bloomberg Law, 690 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 3: I Ami Morris and for June Grosso. For more Bloomberg 691 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 3: Law analysis and interviews, you can head to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 692 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 3: and the Bloomberg Business app. Just download the latest edition 693 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,399 Speaker 3: of the Bloomberg Law podcast. Stay with us. Your top 694 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 3: stories and global business headlines are coming up right now