WEBVTT - Social Media Is a B.U.M.M.E.R. 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.760 My welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:13.440 of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you welcome 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:15.319 to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.279 Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And we're back to a 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:20.480 subject that may be familiar to you if you've been 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:22.360 listening to the show for a bit. It's the next 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.840 battle in the war against the Machines. That's right, you know, 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:27.800 as we've already discussed on the show, and I think 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:30.479 it's obvious to most of our listeners. The wonders of 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:34.159 interconnectedness that the web have have have given us have 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:39.000 also unleashed some less than satisfying realities. You know, we 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:42.239 we worry about smartphone addiction and that the degree to 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:44.760 which these these devices and the many apps they have 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:47.680 on them have been engineered to gain our attention. And 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:50.120 then there's been growing attention given to the role social 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:54.080 media has in in you know, playing into you know, 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:58.320 corporate and state manipulation, endangering democracy, our personal freedom, and 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:02.720 our happiness. We've we've recorded a few different notable episodes 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.720 on these topics. Right, so, I know you and Christian 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:08.800 a while back did an episode. Now this was years ago, now, 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:11.080 so the research has come a long way since then, 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:13.560 I think. But you did an episode on what the 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:18.440 measurable psychological effects of social media were, uh, and there's 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:21.400 still I think this is still a developing field. Like 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:24.760 I notice a lot of conflicting findings when I read 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:28.319 upon this, like is social media making us more lonely, 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:31.080 more depressed? Whatever? It seems like the answer to that 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.240 question is it's complicated, right, And and I think we'll 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:36.000 discuss a little this later on too. That you know, 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:38.679 it also depends on how you're using social media, what 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:40.959 your role is, or using social media as part of 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:44.319 your job, etcetera. Yeah. Uh, then we also you and 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:46.440 I Robert did a couple of episodes within the past 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.320 couple of years called the Great Eyeball Wars that were 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:53.120 primarily about the attention economy, about the fact that our 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:57.280 our devices, and specifically especially like social media platforms on 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:02.120 those devices, but other platforms also are because they make 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.560 their money by getting you to use them and pay 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.360 attention through you know, advertiser dollars. Like you are the 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:12.200 product on these platforms. You're not the customer, uh, and 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.160 your attention is what is being sold to the advertisers. 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.720 They're addicting us, and they're addicting us on purpose pretty much, right, Like, 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.280 one of the I think the handiest metaphors is that 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.440 a social media app on your smartphone turns your smartphone 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.040 into a tiny slot machine. Yes, but it's but while 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:33.679 a Vegas slot machine is is programmed to steal all 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:37.200 of your money, uh, this slot machine, this tiny slot machine, 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:39.959 is programmed to steal all of your time, your time 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:42.800 and your attention. Yeah, it wants you using it as 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:46.120 much as possible. And the numbers on this are kind 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.680 of freaky, like when when you actually measure how much 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:52.640 time people spend on their smartphones, especially looking at apps 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.840 like Facebook or you know, their social media apps, they 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.880 don't usually like what they find out when those numbers 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:00.880 come in, right, And so only we do have tools 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:03.639 on a lot of our smartphones now to track our 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:07.160 screen time and to keep tabs on and even set 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:11.880 up little barriers to excessive use. But as far as 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:15.080 I know, like most of that stuff is still very voluntary. 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:17.640 And then we're not doing as the default settings on 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:21.040 a phone um or certainly when you get a new phone, 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:22.640 you don't tend to bring over your your sort of 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:25.840 legacy settings from the former phone. So, um, you know, 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:28.560 I think there's a there's a huge argument to be 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:32.280 made that that these companies are not really you know, 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:35.840 going in head first in in the battle to reduce 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:38.680 your screen time, right. Uh. And then also we did 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:41.240 a more recent episode called The Doppelganger Network where we 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.040 talked about the jumping off point for that was an 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:48.160 article that we read by Robert Zapolski, the neuroendo chronologist 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:51.000 to Think at Stanford and he uh, then he made 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:54.440 a comparison between the effects of social media use and 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:59.520 and digital media more generally, and uh, the psychological conditions 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:02.840 like cap craw a delusion that caused this rift between 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.560 recognition and familiarity in the brain. So it creates a 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:10.960 kind of a kind of strange, alienated world where where 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:15.360 normally you'd pair these experiences of cognitive recognition, you know, 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:17.839 knowing that you recognize something you see and the feeling 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.479 of familiarity with it, but that is kind of torn 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.920 asunder by the dynamics of social media. Yeah. And and 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:27.120 so I I don't think you know the idea this 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:31.320 argument that oh that so the social media is potentially dangerous, 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:33.400 that it's that it has you know, ill effects. This 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.760 is probably not new. I think everyone's heard somebody argue 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:39.320 it to some extent, and we've even seen people make 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.599 fun of the argument, like, for instance, one image that 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:46.159 it frequently makes the round is UH is an old 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:49.600 old timey photograph of like a subway car or a 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:53.520 train full of individuals, everybody reading a newspaper, everybody's face 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.240 hidden in a newspaper, and then using this to make 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.960 fun of the argument that you know, oh, everybody's just 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:02.080 plugged into their phones, they're not connecting with each other, 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:04.720 as if to say, well, this is exactly the same thing, 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:08.520 but it's not. I think it's it's definitely worth driving 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:14.200 home that the type of UH psychological involvement that's going 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:18.159 on with a social media platform on a mobile device 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:21.760 is entirely different than what you would find by just 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.400 sticking your head into a book or a newspaper. A 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:28.120 book or a newspaper is not a real time feedback device. Yeah, 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:30.440 I mean, I think one thing that that that that 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:32.880 kind of like poking fun at this argument does reveal 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:35.160 is that you can take the argument too far and 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.839 be kind of totalizing about it. Because it's important to 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.520 recognize that the reason people use these services are because 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.680 they do provide something that people want. You know, people 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:48.760 through social media are able to keep up with friendships 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.039 that might have fallen by the wayside otherwise, you know, 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:55.560 maybe long distance friendships. Uh. You know, these these these 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:59.599 platforms and these devices do enable all kinds of things 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.600 and peoples lives that are valuable and good. Right, And 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.520 you can certainly go overboard and kind of a luddite 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.800 response to it and say, well, the internet is bad 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:12.040 or technology is bad. Uh, and I feel like everybody's 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:14.440 gonna have varying opinions. Like to one extreme, you may 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.440 be convinced that social media is uh you know, you know, 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:19.960 it's leaning more and more towards the self digestion of 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:23.320 human civilization. Or or you may see nothing wrong with 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:26.039 social media though you may say, look, Robert and Joe, 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.040 I you know, I use my Instagram, I use my Facebook. 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.520 I keep with up with a few friends, uh, you know, 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:33.839 a few celebrities or a few bands or what have you. 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:35.880 I get the news through it, and that's it. And 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:40.720 it doesn't you know, you know, greatly improve or harm 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:44.920 my psychic experience of reality. Yeah, and if and if 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:47.599 that's what you believe, our goal is not to convince 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:51.039 you that, no, you don't understand it's actually ruining your life. 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:54.000 I mean, you may very well have a perfectly healthy, 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:57.479 limited relationship with social media, and you may be one 0:06:57.520 --> 0:06:59.400 of the people who's getting more out of it than 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:02.159 it's getting out of you. But for a lot of people, 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:03.920 I think we do want to make the case that 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.240 that is not what's going on. Right I would say 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:08.839 that most of us. Even if you you can say 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:12.280 you know honestly that you have a healthy relationship with 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:15.680 social media, you can probably not say the same for 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:20.720 everyone in your circle. There there there's probably somebody or 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:27.000 several people that the display signs of unhealthy usage. So 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.680 in this episode, you know, we're gonna we're gonna look 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:34.040 at some arguments against social media. Specifically, we're going to 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.640 be discussing UH an author by the name of Jarn 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:41.280 Lanier and his two thousand eighteen book Ten Arguments for 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.440 Deleting Your Social Media Accounts right Now. It's a great title, 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:46.440 it gets right to the point it does and and 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.680 it is a fabulous little book that Joe and I 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.720 both both read for this episode. It's um it's short, 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:55.840 it's something on the order of what hundred and forty 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:59.400 six pages long. It's extremely accessible, Like he did not 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:03.680 make this a you know, a high high level computer 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.920 science intellectual argument. It is written so that I think 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.400 pretty much anybody could understand it. It's very accessible, it's 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.320 very ground level, and I think it makes a pretty 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:17.000 compelling case that at least well he His argument is 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:21.640 that social media in the business model that exists today, 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:25.040 is doing more harm than good, and our best way 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.160 of fighting that harm is to have everybody get off 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:32.560 of these platforms, because this will force the the company 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:36.800 is involved to actually implement changes, right and and so 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:40.520 his his argument is not one against technology, and it's 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.800 not even necessarily against one one against um a certain 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:49.320 form of social media. It's against a particular business model 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.840 that powers social media. And that business model, I think 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:56.000 is what he ends up calling the bummer business model. 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:59.880 It's a business model that is paid for by behave 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.560 year old modification. Yes, bummer, be you in any are, 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:08.640 which Linear says stands for behaviors of users modified and 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:13.080 made into an empire for rent. It's clever having an 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.600 acronym because it sticks with you and uh and yeah, 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:17.480 it's clever and it's a little bit funny, and and 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:19.840 that can be said for the entire book. Despite being 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:23.719 a fairly serious topic with some potentially serious ramifications for 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:29.079 humanity at large and for individual you know, self worth, 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:32.480 it is a humorous read at times, and it is 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.120 it is fun to read. So I can't recommend it 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:37.160 highly enough. There's a book you can read on the 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:40.679 train and the plane, on a toilet. Uh, you know 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:44.400 it just it makes for a great but important casual read. Yeah, 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:46.160 and we we've talked about maybe getting him on the 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:48.240 podcast sometime soon, and that would be great to have 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:50.280 a conversation with him. But today we just wanted to 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:52.520 talk about maybe a couple of the arguments that he 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.360 brings up in the book and and our thoughts about them. Yeah, 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.760 we're not gonna attempt to regurgitate the entire book because 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:03.000 the book is is already already speaks for itself. So 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:07.520 we'll start though, by just talking about Jarren Lanier himself. 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.199 You might be familiar with him already, perhaps you're not. 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:12.600 Perhaps you've just read his name and thought it was 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.920 pronounced Jared Lantier, which is how I've been pronouncing in 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:17.480 my mind. That's how I've said it on the show 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:21.760 a lot. But anyway. He is a scientist, a musician, 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.880 and a writer. He is a major figure in the 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:29.599 realm of virtual reality, having founded the VR company VPL 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:32.800 Research in the nineteen eighties, and while he didn't coin 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:36.559 the term virtual reality, this is generally attributed to French 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:41.960 playwright uh Anton and R. Toad In, he did popularize it. 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:46.719 He helped create the first commercial VR products and introduced avatars, 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:52.160 multiperson virtual world experiences, and prototypes of major VR applications 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.440 such as surgical simulation. He was involved in the creation 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:58.800 of the Nintendo power glove. Yeah, now you're playing with 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:01.360 power which you know, which I have to say, the 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.400 power glove. I never had one as a kid, but 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.520 I saw people with them, I knew people who had them, 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.680 and it it was this, this instrument of wonder. I 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.840 don't think it was all that practical as a gaming device, 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.280 but I think it inspired a lot of people. And 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:19.240 I also love seeing, especially nineteen nineties science fiction where 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.520 they have reused a power glove as part of like 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:25.599 a cybernetic you know, outfit for somebody. Anyway, he was 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:29.040 also involved in the with the creation of the headset 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.360 apparently for the nine film The lawnmower Man. So you're 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.440 really bringing out the hits here. Yeah, And I think 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.120 this is probably not the stuff that usually gets highlighted 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.360 about his career, but it's this, you know, some of 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:41.320 the stuff that I think some of our listeners might 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:43.760 be familiar with. Exactly. I should point out that he's 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:47.200 not credited on lawnmower Man, but he does get a 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:51.520 thanks on the far superior sci fi work Minority Report. 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:54.880 Uh he But more to the point, though, he's an 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:59.240 author of several books, such as the two thousand six 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:03.360 in Nation is an Alienated Experience. You are not a 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.320 gadget of Manifesto from two thousand ten, who owns the 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:11.400 future from and Don of the New Everything from seventeen. Now. 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:13.559 I tend to think of him kind of as a 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.800 technology philosopher, and I really like a lot of his 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:22.120 approach because it's got a healthy skepticism about over hyping 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.640 technology and what it can do. And at the same time, 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.319 he's not anti technology. He's clearly somebody who loves digital technology, 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.840 loves computers. You know, he's worked with them his whole career, 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:33.319 and so he doesn't end up saying throw your smartphone 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:35.400 in the fire, flush it down the toilet, smash it 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:39.200 with a hammer. It's not an anti technology message. He 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:43.840 actually has a very specifically tailored message trying to identify 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:48.080 exactly what it is about the social media platforms specifically 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.440 as they exist today that's causing problems for us and 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.160 for our society, and how could they be changed. Yeah, 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:57.560 ultimately he is he's an optimist. Like he's he's presenting 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:01.320 an optimistic view of the future, like certainly highlighting problems, 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.240 but discussing how we can address them, which I love. 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.959 I feel like I've spent too much of my life, um, 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.880 you know, looking at more pessimistic views of reality and 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.880 dystopian views of reality, and I've gotten to the point 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:18.559 where those just don't serve me anymore. So I far 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:24.400 prefer reading an author like like Jarrelin here. So the 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:26.760 book in question, I have to talk about the cover 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:29.840 of it, because the cover is is very simple, you know, 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:34.000 just a black and red text on a white background 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.000 and a silhouette of a cat walking off the cover 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.320 of the book. And the cat is a central metaphor 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.599 in the book, right, because as he points out, you know, 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:44.400 as much as we love dogs, I love dogs, you do. 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:46.360 You do love dogs, And I love dogs too, just 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:49.080 as I don't own one. But as much as we 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:55.600 love dogs, we domesticated the dog, the cat arguably domesticated itself. Uh. 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:59.800 You know, it interacts in our lives more on its terms. Uh. 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.600 You you were at great pains to attempt to train 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:06.200 the cat, as anyone who's ever certainly you know, tried 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:08.959 to to you know, shoot a film about cats can 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:13.719 attest to um. So, Lanier argues that social media is 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.160 essentially turning us into well trained dogs. But we should 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:20.400 really strive to be cats, able to dictate our involvement 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:22.920 in the relationship at hand, to scratch the hand that 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.960 feeds us, if we so wish, to sleep wherever we choose, 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:30.160 refuse food, walk on all the furniture. Ultimately we should 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:32.280 we should want to be cats. We don't want to 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:35.520 be social media's dog. Yeah. And also, I mean, while 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.400 he's advising people to quit social media, he's making an argument, 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:41.920 and he's not. It's not a totalizing argument. I mean, 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:45.680 he realizes that different people are in different circumstances. Uh, 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.840 that it's it's not a choice that will work for everybody, right, Like, 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.360 he's very clear on the on the fact that quitting 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.600 social media is a privilege and not everybody is able 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:57.320 to do it. A lot of people, uh you know, 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.840 own a business or or or part of their job 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:03.040 entails them using social media. I know some people like that, 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:05.640 and then they're just they're trapped in they're trapped in it, 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:07.560 you like, you just can't walk away from it, or 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.640 you might be shackled to it more socially, like, well, 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.360 if I stop using uh, you know, Facebook, how am 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:15.480 I gonna can connect connect with my friends who all 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:17.360 live in another city and I just moved to a 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.080 place where I don't know anybody. Um, you know, they're 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:21.920 all these arguments to be made, and so he's not. 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:24.480 He's not, you know, drawing this firm line in the 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.280 sand and saying, you know, the winners over here, losers 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.400 over there, or anything of the of the sword. And 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:32.680 he's certainly not arguing that, you know, we should we 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.040 should all go and make a big dramatic to do 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:37.920 about quitting social media either because I think I think 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.120 we all see that occasionally on our feet to oh, 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.040 that's the most embarrassing thing when you see somebody post 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.240 a lot about how they're quitting and then they quit 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:49.920 for a week and then they're back. Yeah. Yeah. And 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.200 in fact, I actually I shared I shared something about 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:56.880 this book on my private social media feed, and and 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.760 immediately like somebody was like calling me out for having 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:04.560 posted about quitting social media on social media. But of 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:06.600 course I think what's wrong with that? I mean, I mean, 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:08.480 where are we going to talk about leaving social media 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:12.240 but social media to a certain extent um. And and 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.720 also well, I mean this episode where we're discussing his 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:19.520 arguments again, you know, we're not necessarily saying everybody's got 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:21.160 to get off social media, but I do think these 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:26.600 are some interesting arguments, very worth considering. Um, we're discussing 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:28.880 these on an episode that will be promoted on social 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:31.600 media because that is part of the distribution business model 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.360 of this podcast exactly. It's like, this is how, you know, 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.760 one way that we reach listeners, and if we don't 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:41.080 do this, it won't reach as many listeners. So I 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.360 don't know, how do you how do you balance that? Is? Like, 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:45.280 are you actually doing better if you say, well, let's 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.400 not post the episode on social media so fewer people 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:50.800 will hear it. Yeah, thus is the world. Thus have 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:55.119 we made it? But at any rate, Linear also ultimately 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.360 says like, hey, I'm not even saying quit social media forever. 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.240 And you know, because all timately he's hope, he's hopeful 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.119 that social media can be corrected, that we can come 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:06.520 back to a version of social media media that is 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.720 not harmful to us in so many ways. And then 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:11.920 also he's saying, like, you know, quit for a while 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:14.199 and come back. That's the only way you'll you'll have 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:16.680 any kind of like insight on what it's doing to you, 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.040 Like this will help give you the uh, you know, 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:24.119 the vantage point by which to to understand the interaction 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:28.600 between your life and these bummer systems. All right, well, 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:30.120 maybe we should take a quick break and then when 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.280 we come back, we can discuss a couple of the 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:37.240 arguments from the book and our thoughts about them. Than 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:40.960 than alright, we're back. So again, the book that we're 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:44.719 discussing is uh journalin Ears ten arguments for deleting your 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.280 social media accounts. Right now, you're probably wondering, what are 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.440 those ten arguments. We're not going to regurgitate all ten 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:52.280 arguments here. If you want to know what they are. 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.240 You should pick up a copy of it because without 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:57.639 even opening the book, all ten are listed on the 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.800 back right, which is which is was handy. You know, 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:02.600 you can just you can instantly see what you're in for. 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.960 We're gonna be talking about I think basically four of 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:09.000 the arguments and uh in discussing them a bit here 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.760 for you. Yeah, some in more depth than others. Now, 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.240 one thing that we should talk about upfront, because it's 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:16.879 sort of a foundational argument that feeds into all the others, 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:21.040 is this point that, in Linear's words, due to social media, 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:25.000 you are partially losing your free will. Uh So, one 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:28.280 of his core arguments on which many of the others 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:32.280 rest is that social media is at heart a mass 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:37.240 program of behavior modification for rent. That is how these 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:40.600 companies make money. So if your Facebook, the way that 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:44.320 you make money is that people pay you to have 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:48.679 some kind of influence on users of Facebook, and that 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:53.120 influence could be a very traditional, normal style of advertising, 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.320 the kind of thing that you know that happens everywhere 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.000 and most people aren't bothered by, right because it's clear 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:00.960 what's happening. You're just seeing an ad for a product 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:04.160 that somebody thinks you might want and you know, there's 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:06.480 the ad and you might go by it. That's you know, 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.560 we're not generally very bothered by that. Right. Always reminds 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:13.159 me of the moment in Futurama where a fry encounters 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.840 in the future and advertisement in his dream. That's a 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.320 little creepier. We find it intrusive. And he says, you know, 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.600 we didn't have that in my time. We just had advertisements, 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:24.480 you know, all over the place and in the sky 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.280 on the board. I mean, certainly we do live even 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:28.879 without social media. We live in an age of you 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:33.520 just ubiquitous advertising. Yeah, and you know that is This 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:35.560 is one thing that he does sort of attack is 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:40.640 the problem that the web arose on an advertising pay 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.720 for model. Uh. You know, back in the early days 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.080 of the web, there was this idea that everything needed 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.439 to be free to access. You couldn't charge people to 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:51.840 get stuff on the web. But then how do you 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.280 pay for producing that stuff. Somebody's got to make it, 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:56.439 you know that they've got to get paid somehow. So 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.600 what happens, Well, you'd pay for it by showing advertising 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:02.119 along with the thing, and the advertisers would pay for 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:04.439 what you're seeing right. And of course, again coming back 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:06.960 to podcasting, we're not blind to the fact that that's 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:09.720 essentially what you have with this podcast. This podcast is 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:12.280 provided to you for free, but you have to put 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.600 up with advertisements. Right now, I don't really mind that 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:18.120 from an advertisement from a from a podcast point of view, 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.719 because when I listen to podcasts and when I make 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:24.240 a podcast, I generally think the advertising that's happening there 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:27.960 is fairly straightforward. It's pretty clear what's going on. Somebody's 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:31.360 pitching you a product. I mean, likewise on television. Of course, 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:33.960 television start off with the same model and he discusses this. 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:36.840 You know, it's like here's the signal, here's some programming, 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:41.200 but here are also some advertisements. But generally speaking, without 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:43.000 getting into some of the you know, the trickier forms 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:46.359 of television advertising and product integration and so forth, you're 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:48.520 you're still dealing with a situation where it's like I'm 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:51.119 watching a show. Okay, now I'm watching an ad. Now 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.280 I'm watching the show again. Right. But even when even 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:57.639 with other things, you know, like uh, sponsored content and 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:00.480 stuff like that, I mean, I think there's there's a 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:04.760 big difference between what's clear and what's sneaky. I think 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:09.000 generally people tend to be okay with advertising when it's 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.439 clear what's going on, When you know, they're told who's 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.879 paying for what they're seeing, and it's clear what the 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:18.679 person who's paying for what they're seeing wants them to do. 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:21.200 Usually it's like buy my product or become a member 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:23.520 of my service or something like that. That that's that's 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:25.480