1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: My welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you welcome 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:15,319 Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And we're back to a 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: subject that may be familiar to you if you've been 6 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: listening to the show for a bit. It's the next 7 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: battle in the war against the Machines. That's right, you know, 8 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: as we've already discussed on the show, and I think 9 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: it's obvious to most of our listeners. The wonders of 10 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: interconnectedness that the web have have have given us have 11 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: also unleashed some less than satisfying realities. You know, we 12 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: we worry about smartphone addiction and that the degree to 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: which these these devices and the many apps they have 14 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: on them have been engineered to gain our attention. And 15 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: then there's been growing attention given to the role social 16 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: media has in in you know, playing into you know, 17 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: corporate and state manipulation, endangering democracy, our personal freedom, and 18 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: our happiness. We've we've recorded a few different notable episodes 19 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: on these topics. Right, so, I know you and Christian 20 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: a while back did an episode. Now this was years ago, now, 21 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: so the research has come a long way since then, 22 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: I think. But you did an episode on what the 23 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: measurable psychological effects of social media were, uh, and there's 24 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: still I think this is still a developing field. Like 25 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: I notice a lot of conflicting findings when I read 26 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: upon this, like is social media making us more lonely, 27 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: more depressed? Whatever? It seems like the answer to that 28 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: question is it's complicated, right, And and I think we'll 29 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: discuss a little this later on too. That you know, 30 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: it also depends on how you're using social media, what 31 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: your role is, or using social media as part of 32 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: your job, etcetera. Yeah. Uh, then we also you and 33 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: I Robert did a couple of episodes within the past 34 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: couple of years called the Great Eyeball Wars that were 35 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: primarily about the attention economy, about the fact that our 36 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: our devices, and specifically especially like social media platforms on 37 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: those devices, but other platforms also are because they make 38 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: their money by getting you to use them and pay 39 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: attention through you know, advertiser dollars. Like you are the 40 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: product on these platforms. You're not the customer, uh, and 41 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: your attention is what is being sold to the advertisers. 42 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: They're addicting us, and they're addicting us on purpose pretty much, right, Like, 43 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: one of the I think the handiest metaphors is that 44 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: a social media app on your smartphone turns your smartphone 45 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: into a tiny slot machine. Yes, but it's but while 46 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 1: a Vegas slot machine is is programmed to steal all 47 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: of your money, uh, this slot machine, this tiny slot machine, 48 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 1: is programmed to steal all of your time, your time 49 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: and your attention. Yeah, it wants you using it as 50 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: much as possible. And the numbers on this are kind 51 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: of freaky, like when when you actually measure how much 52 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: time people spend on their smartphones, especially looking at apps 53 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: like Facebook or you know, their social media apps, they 54 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: don't usually like what they find out when those numbers 55 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: come in, right, And so only we do have tools 56 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 1: on a lot of our smartphones now to track our 57 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: screen time and to keep tabs on and even set 58 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: up little barriers to excessive use. But as far as 59 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: I know, like most of that stuff is still very voluntary. 60 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: And then we're not doing as the default settings on 61 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: a phone um or certainly when you get a new phone, 62 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: you don't tend to bring over your your sort of 63 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: legacy settings from the former phone. So, um, you know, 64 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: I think there's a there's a huge argument to be 65 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: made that that these companies are not really you know, 66 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: going in head first in in the battle to reduce 67 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: your screen time, right. Uh. And then also we did 68 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: a more recent episode called The Doppelganger Network where we 69 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: talked about the jumping off point for that was an 70 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: article that we read by Robert Zapolski, the neuroendo chronologist 71 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: to Think at Stanford and he uh, then he made 72 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: a comparison between the effects of social media use and 73 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: and digital media more generally, and uh, the psychological conditions 74 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: like cap craw a delusion that caused this rift between 75 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: recognition and familiarity in the brain. So it creates a 76 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: kind of a kind of strange, alienated world where where 77 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: normally you'd pair these experiences of cognitive recognition, you know, 78 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: knowing that you recognize something you see and the feeling 79 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: of familiarity with it, but that is kind of torn 80 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: asunder by the dynamics of social media. Yeah. And and 81 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: so I I don't think you know the idea this 82 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: argument that oh that so the social media is potentially dangerous, 83 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: that it's that it has you know, ill effects. This 84 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: is probably not new. I think everyone's heard somebody argue 85 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: it to some extent, and we've even seen people make 86 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: fun of the argument, like, for instance, one image that 87 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: it frequently makes the round is UH is an old 88 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: old timey photograph of like a subway car or a 89 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: train full of individuals, everybody reading a newspaper, everybody's face 90 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: hidden in a newspaper, and then using this to make 91 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: fun of the argument that you know, oh, everybody's just 92 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: plugged into their phones, they're not connecting with each other, 93 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: as if to say, well, this is exactly the same thing, 94 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: but it's not. I think it's it's definitely worth driving 95 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: home that the type of UH psychological involvement that's going 96 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: on with a social media platform on a mobile device 97 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: is entirely different than what you would find by just 98 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: sticking your head into a book or a newspaper. A 99 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: book or a newspaper is not a real time feedback device. Yeah, 100 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I think one thing that that that that 101 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: kind of like poking fun at this argument does reveal 102 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: is that you can take the argument too far and 103 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: be kind of totalizing about it. Because it's important to 104 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: recognize that the reason people use these services are because 105 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: they do provide something that people want. You know, people 106 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: through social media are able to keep up with friendships 107 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: that might have fallen by the wayside otherwise, you know, 108 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: maybe long distance friendships. Uh. You know, these these these 109 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: platforms and these devices do enable all kinds of things 110 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: and peoples lives that are valuable and good. Right, And 111 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: you can certainly go overboard and kind of a luddite 112 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: response to it and say, well, the internet is bad 113 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: or technology is bad. Uh, and I feel like everybody's 114 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: gonna have varying opinions. Like to one extreme, you may 115 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: be convinced that social media is uh you know, you know, 116 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: it's leaning more and more towards the self digestion of 117 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: human civilization. Or or you may see nothing wrong with 118 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: social media though you may say, look, Robert and Joe, 119 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: I you know, I use my Instagram, I use my Facebook. 120 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: I keep with up with a few friends, uh, you know, 121 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: a few celebrities or a few bands or what have you. 122 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: I get the news through it, and that's it. And 123 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: it doesn't you know, you know, greatly improve or harm 124 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: my psychic experience of reality. Yeah, and if and if 125 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: that's what you believe, our goal is not to convince 126 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: you that, no, you don't understand it's actually ruining your life. 127 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you may very well have a perfectly healthy, 128 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: limited relationship with social media, and you may be one 129 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: of the people who's getting more out of it than 130 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: it's getting out of you. But for a lot of people, 131 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: I think we do want to make the case that 132 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: that is not what's going on. Right I would say 133 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: that most of us. Even if you you can say 134 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: you know honestly that you have a healthy relationship with 135 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: social media, you can probably not say the same for 136 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: everyone in your circle. There there there's probably somebody or 137 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: several people that the display signs of unhealthy usage. So 138 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: in this episode, you know, we're gonna we're gonna look 139 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: at some arguments against social media. Specifically, we're going to 140 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: be discussing UH an author by the name of Jarn 141 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: Lanier and his two thousand eighteen book Ten Arguments for 142 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: Deleting Your Social Media Accounts right Now. It's a great title, 143 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: it gets right to the point it does and and 144 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: it is a fabulous little book that Joe and I 145 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: both both read for this episode. It's um it's short, 146 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: it's something on the order of what hundred and forty 147 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: six pages long. It's extremely accessible, Like he did not 148 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: make this a you know, a high high level computer 149 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: science intellectual argument. It is written so that I think 150 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: pretty much anybody could understand it. It's very accessible, it's 151 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: very ground level, and I think it makes a pretty 152 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: compelling case that at least well he His argument is 153 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: that social media in the business model that exists today, 154 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: is doing more harm than good, and our best way 155 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: of fighting that harm is to have everybody get off 156 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: of these platforms, because this will force the the company 157 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: is involved to actually implement changes, right and and so 158 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: his his argument is not one against technology, and it's 159 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: not even necessarily against one one against um a certain 160 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: form of social media. It's against a particular business model 161 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: that powers social media. And that business model, I think 162 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: is what he ends up calling the bummer business model. 163 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: It's a business model that is paid for by behave 164 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: year old modification. Yes, bummer, be you in any are, 165 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: which Linear says stands for behaviors of users modified and 166 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: made into an empire for rent. It's clever having an 167 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: acronym because it sticks with you and uh and yeah, 168 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: it's clever and it's a little bit funny, and and 169 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: that can be said for the entire book. Despite being 170 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,719 Speaker 1: a fairly serious topic with some potentially serious ramifications for 171 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: humanity at large and for individual you know, self worth, 172 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: it is a humorous read at times, and it is 173 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: it is fun to read. So I can't recommend it 174 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: highly enough. There's a book you can read on the 175 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: train and the plane, on a toilet. Uh, you know 176 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: it just it makes for a great but important casual read. Yeah, 177 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: and we we've talked about maybe getting him on the 178 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: podcast sometime soon, and that would be great to have 179 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: a conversation with him. But today we just wanted to 180 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: talk about maybe a couple of the arguments that he 181 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: brings up in the book and and our thoughts about them. Yeah, 182 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: we're not gonna attempt to regurgitate the entire book because 183 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: the book is is already already speaks for itself. So 184 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: we'll start though, by just talking about Jarren Lanier himself. 185 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 1: You might be familiar with him already, perhaps you're not. 186 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: Perhaps you've just read his name and thought it was 187 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: pronounced Jared Lantier, which is how I've been pronouncing in 188 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: my mind. That's how I've said it on the show 189 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: a lot. But anyway. He is a scientist, a musician, 190 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: and a writer. He is a major figure in the 191 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,599 Speaker 1: realm of virtual reality, having founded the VR company VPL 192 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: Research in the nineteen eighties, and while he didn't coin 193 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 1: the term virtual reality, this is generally attributed to French 194 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: playwright uh Anton and R. Toad In, he did popularize it. 195 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,719 Speaker 1: He helped create the first commercial VR products and introduced avatars, 196 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: multiperson virtual world experiences, and prototypes of major VR applications 197 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: such as surgical simulation. He was involved in the creation 198 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: of the Nintendo power glove. Yeah, now you're playing with 199 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: power which you know, which I have to say, the 200 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: power glove. I never had one as a kid, but 201 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: I saw people with them, I knew people who had them, 202 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: and it it was this, this instrument of wonder. I 203 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: don't think it was all that practical as a gaming device, 204 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: but I think it inspired a lot of people. And 205 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: I also love seeing, especially nineteen nineties science fiction where 206 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: they have reused a power glove as part of like 207 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,599 Speaker 1: a cybernetic you know, outfit for somebody. Anyway, he was 208 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: also involved in the with the creation of the headset 209 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: apparently for the nine film The lawnmower Man. So you're 210 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: really bringing out the hits here. Yeah, And I think 211 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: this is probably not the stuff that usually gets highlighted 212 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: about his career, but it's this, you know, some of 213 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: the stuff that I think some of our listeners might 214 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: be familiar with. Exactly. I should point out that he's 215 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: not credited on lawnmower Man, but he does get a 216 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: thanks on the far superior sci fi work Minority Report. 217 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: Uh he But more to the point, though, he's an 218 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: author of several books, such as the two thousand six 219 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: in Nation is an Alienated Experience. You are not a 220 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: gadget of Manifesto from two thousand ten, who owns the 221 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: future from and Don of the New Everything from seventeen. Now. 222 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 1: I tend to think of him kind of as a 223 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: technology philosopher, and I really like a lot of his 224 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: approach because it's got a healthy skepticism about over hyping 225 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: technology and what it can do. And at the same time, 226 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 1: he's not anti technology. He's clearly somebody who loves digital technology, 227 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: loves computers. You know, he's worked with them his whole career, 228 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 1: and so he doesn't end up saying throw your smartphone 229 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: in the fire, flush it down the toilet, smash it 230 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: with a hammer. It's not an anti technology message. He 231 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: actually has a very specifically tailored message trying to identify 232 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: exactly what it is about the social media platforms specifically 233 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: as they exist today that's causing problems for us and 234 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: for our society, and how could they be changed. Yeah, 235 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: ultimately he is he's an optimist. Like he's he's presenting 236 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: an optimistic view of the future, like certainly highlighting problems, 237 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: but discussing how we can address them, which I love. 238 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 1: I feel like I've spent too much of my life, um, 239 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: you know, looking at more pessimistic views of reality and 240 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: dystopian views of reality, and I've gotten to the point 241 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: where those just don't serve me anymore. So I far 242 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: prefer reading an author like like Jarrelin here. So the 243 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: book in question, I have to talk about the cover 244 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: of it, because the cover is is very simple, you know, 245 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: just a black and red text on a white background 246 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: and a silhouette of a cat walking off the cover 247 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: of the book. And the cat is a central metaphor 248 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,599 Speaker 1: in the book, right, because as he points out, you know, 249 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: as much as we love dogs, I love dogs, you do. 250 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: You do love dogs, And I love dogs too, just 251 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: as I don't own one. But as much as we 252 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: love dogs, we domesticated the dog, the cat arguably domesticated itself. Uh. 253 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: You know, it interacts in our lives more on its terms. Uh. 254 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: You you were at great pains to attempt to train 255 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: the cat, as anyone who's ever certainly you know, tried 256 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 1: to to you know, shoot a film about cats can 257 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,719 Speaker 1: attest to um. So, Lanier argues that social media is 258 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: essentially turning us into well trained dogs. But we should 259 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: really strive to be cats, able to dictate our involvement 260 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: in the relationship at hand, to scratch the hand that 261 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: feeds us, if we so wish, to sleep wherever we choose, 262 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: refuse food, walk on all the furniture. Ultimately we should 263 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: we should want to be cats. We don't want to 264 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: be social media's dog. Yeah. And also, I mean, while 265 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: he's advising people to quit social media, he's making an argument, 266 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: and he's not. It's not a totalizing argument. I mean, 267 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: he realizes that different people are in different circumstances. Uh, 268 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: that it's it's not a choice that will work for everybody, right, Like, 269 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: he's very clear on the on the fact that quitting 270 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: social media is a privilege and not everybody is able 271 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: to do it. A lot of people, uh you know, 272 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: own a business or or or part of their job 273 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: entails them using social media. I know some people like that, 274 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: and then they're just they're trapped in they're trapped in it, 275 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: you like, you just can't walk away from it, or 276 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: you might be shackled to it more socially, like, well, 277 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: if I stop using uh, you know, Facebook, how am 278 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: I gonna can connect connect with my friends who all 279 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: live in another city and I just moved to a 280 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: place where I don't know anybody. Um, you know, they're 281 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: all these arguments to be made, and so he's not. 282 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: He's not, you know, drawing this firm line in the 283 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: sand and saying, you know, the winners over here, losers 284 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: over there, or anything of the of the sword. And 285 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: he's certainly not arguing that, you know, we should we 286 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: should all go and make a big dramatic to do 287 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: about quitting social media either because I think I think 288 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: we all see that occasionally on our feet to oh, 289 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: that's the most embarrassing thing when you see somebody post 290 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: a lot about how they're quitting and then they quit 291 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: for a week and then they're back. Yeah. Yeah. And 292 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: in fact, I actually I shared I shared something about 293 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: this book on my private social media feed, and and 294 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: immediately like somebody was like calling me out for having 295 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: posted about quitting social media on social media. But of 296 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: course I think what's wrong with that? I mean, I mean, 297 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: where are we going to talk about leaving social media 298 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: but social media to a certain extent um. And and 299 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: also well, I mean this episode where we're discussing his 300 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: arguments again, you know, we're not necessarily saying everybody's got 301 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: to get off social media, but I do think these 302 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: are some interesting arguments, very worth considering. Um, we're discussing 303 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: these on an episode that will be promoted on social 304 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: media because that is part of the distribution business model 305 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: of this podcast exactly. It's like, this is how, you know, 306 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: one way that we reach listeners, and if we don't 307 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: do this, it won't reach as many listeners. So I 308 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: don't know, how do you how do you balance that? Is? Like, 309 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: are you actually doing better if you say, well, let's 310 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: not post the episode on social media so fewer people 311 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: will hear it. Yeah, thus is the world. Thus have 312 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,119 Speaker 1: we made it? But at any rate, Linear also ultimately 313 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: says like, hey, I'm not even saying quit social media forever. 314 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: And you know, because all timately he's hope, he's hopeful 315 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: that social media can be corrected, that we can come 316 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: back to a version of social media media that is 317 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: not harmful to us in so many ways. And then 318 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 1: also he's saying, like, you know, quit for a while 319 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 1: and come back. That's the only way you'll you'll have 320 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: any kind of like insight on what it's doing to you, 321 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: Like this will help give you the uh, you know, 322 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: the vantage point by which to to understand the interaction 323 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: between your life and these bummer systems. All right, well, 324 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 1: maybe we should take a quick break and then when 325 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: we come back, we can discuss a couple of the 326 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: arguments from the book and our thoughts about them. Than 327 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: than alright, we're back. So again, the book that we're 328 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,719 Speaker 1: discussing is uh journalin Ears ten arguments for deleting your 329 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: social media accounts. Right now, you're probably wondering, what are 330 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: those ten arguments. We're not going to regurgitate all ten 331 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: arguments here. If you want to know what they are. 332 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: You should pick up a copy of it because without 333 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: even opening the book, all ten are listed on the 334 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: back right, which is which is was handy. You know, 335 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: you can just you can instantly see what you're in for. 336 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking about I think basically four of 337 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: the arguments and uh in discussing them a bit here 338 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: for you. Yeah, some in more depth than others. Now, 339 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: one thing that we should talk about upfront, because it's 340 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: sort of a foundational argument that feeds into all the others, 341 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: is this point that, in Linear's words, due to social media, 342 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: you are partially losing your free will. Uh So, one 343 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: of his core arguments on which many of the others 344 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: rest is that social media is at heart a mass 345 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: program of behavior modification for rent. That is how these 346 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: companies make money. So if your Facebook, the way that 347 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: you make money is that people pay you to have 348 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: some kind of influence on users of Facebook, and that 349 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: influence could be a very traditional, normal style of advertising, 350 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: the kind of thing that you know that happens everywhere 351 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: and most people aren't bothered by, right because it's clear 352 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: what's happening. You're just seeing an ad for a product 353 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: that somebody thinks you might want and you know, there's 354 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: the ad and you might go by it. That's you know, 355 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: we're not generally very bothered by that. Right. Always reminds 356 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: me of the moment in Futurama where a fry encounters 357 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: in the future and advertisement in his dream. That's a 358 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: little creepier. We find it intrusive. And he says, you know, 359 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: we didn't have that in my time. We just had advertisements, 360 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: you know, all over the place and in the sky 361 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: on the board. I mean, certainly we do live even 362 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: without social media. We live in an age of you 363 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: just ubiquitous advertising. Yeah, and you know that is This 364 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: is one thing that he does sort of attack is 365 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: the problem that the web arose on an advertising pay 366 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: for model. Uh. You know, back in the early days 367 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: of the web, there was this idea that everything needed 368 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: to be free to access. You couldn't charge people to 369 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: get stuff on the web. But then how do you 370 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: pay for producing that stuff. Somebody's got to make it, 371 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: you know that they've got to get paid somehow. So 372 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: what happens, Well, you'd pay for it by showing advertising 373 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: along with the thing, and the advertisers would pay for 374 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 1: what you're seeing right. And of course, again coming back 375 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: to podcasting, we're not blind to the fact that that's 376 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: essentially what you have with this podcast. This podcast is 377 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: provided to you for free, but you have to put 378 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: up with advertisements. Right now, I don't really mind that 379 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: from an advertisement from a from a podcast point of view, 380 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,719 Speaker 1: because when I listen to podcasts and when I make 381 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: a podcast, I generally think the advertising that's happening there 382 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: is fairly straightforward. It's pretty clear what's going on. Somebody's 383 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 1: pitching you a product. I mean, likewise on television. Of course, 384 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: television start off with the same model and he discusses this. 385 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: You know, it's like here's the signal, here's some programming, 386 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: but here are also some advertisements. But generally speaking, without 387 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: getting into some of the you know, the trickier forms 388 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: of television advertising and product integration and so forth, you're 389 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: you're still dealing with a situation where it's like I'm 390 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: watching a show. Okay, now I'm watching an ad. Now 391 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: I'm watching the show again. Right. But even when even 392 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: with other things, you know, like uh, sponsored content and 393 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: stuff like that, I mean, I think there's there's a 394 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: big difference between what's clear and what's sneaky. I think 395 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: generally people tend to be okay with advertising when it's 396 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: clear what's going on, When you know, they're told who's 397 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: paying for what they're seeing, and it's clear what the 398 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 1: person who's paying for what they're seeing wants them to do. 399 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: Usually it's like buy my product or become a member 400 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: of my service or something like that. That that's that's 401 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: the kind of thing that I usually feel fine about 402 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: that most people tend to feel fine about what's going 403 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: on with social media. According to Tolneer's argument is that 404 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: there is a much sneakier, more subtle, and perhaps more 405 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 1: sinister thing happening, which is that our behavior is being 406 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: modified in ways that are not clear, that are not 407 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 1: that are not obvious to us, ways that we're not 408 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: aware of, and we oftentimes, in fact, most of the 409 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: time don't know who's doing it right. And I think 410 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: we all have those moments using a product like Facebook 411 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 1: where something an advertisement will pop up or predict or 412 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: perhaps a post even made by a friend will pop up, 413 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: and you'll stop for a second and wonder, why was 414 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: that served to me? Why am I seeing this? Yeah? 415 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: What is what have I done? What sort of interactions 416 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: on my part or you know, a demographic information on 417 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: my part has led to this being put in my face. 418 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: But there's a good chance that it is. It's either 419 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,479 Speaker 1: serving the like the supply model of Facebook, which is 420 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: trying to keep you engaged on the platform for as 421 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: long as possible, so that that's one thing. They just 422 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 1: want to keep you on there so they can modify 423 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: your behavior more, gather more data about you, show you 424 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: more ads. Uh, So that's one thing. They might be 425 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: just showing you it to you because their vast collection 426 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: of data shows that when you see stuff like this, 427 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: you use Facebook for a longer period of time, or 428 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: you log back on more often later in the day. 429 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: So that might be one thing. But the other thing 430 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: might be that you're seeing that thing because somebody has 431 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 1: targeted you for some kind of act. They want to 432 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: generate some kind of effect. And this could be like 433 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: become my customer kind of effect, or it could be 434 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: something else. It could be in effect like we want 435 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: to make people stay home instead of go out and 436 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: vote today. Now at this point I do want to 437 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: drive home as well. That one thing that Lanier is 438 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: very clear on is that he is making no argument 439 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: that there is like a room at Facebook or Twitter 440 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: or wherever where like evil operations go on, that there's 441 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: like a sinister cabal in any of these organizations that 442 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: are sitting down and saying what can we do to 443 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: destroy the human soul or anything like that? Right, there's 444 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: not a m wahahaha committee. There is. Instead, there is well, well, 445 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: I mean, there are decisions being made by people about 446 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 1: what types of incentives will be algorithmically optimized and so 447 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: so that is something where it's not like the humans 448 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: who operate in these companies don't bear responsibility. They do, 449 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: but they're not they're they're generally not trying to ruin 450 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 1: the human race, So they're not trying to say, what, 451 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: what's the worst thing we can do to our users? Right? 452 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: That would that would just be a simplification of something 453 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: that is a lot more complicated, and it's taking place 454 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: not on the scale of even of an individual or individuals, 455 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: but taking place in the scale of a corporation. What 456 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: Linear argues is that bad business incentives which prioritize behavior 457 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: modification are leading to the creation of algorithms that sort 458 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: of automatically commit these these behavior modification schemes, and so 459 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: behavior modification can be linked to traditions and the behaviorist 460 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: school of psychology, which flourished in the twentieth century. We've 461 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: talked on other episodes of the show about like B. F. 462 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: Skinner and behaviorism. Behaviorism sometimes gets demonized, and they're definitely 463 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: really good reasons to be historically critical of the behaviorist 464 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: trend in the history of psychology, but it also wasn't 465 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: entirely wrong, like behaviorism, I think could be credited with 466 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: trying to make psychology a more objective science. But it 467 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: also you know, a common criticism is the it sort 468 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: of treats the human brain like a black box. You know, 469 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: conditioning goes in, behavior comes out, and whatever happens inside 470 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 1: just isn't really important. But one thing that it did 471 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: show is that if you treat the human brain like 472 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: this kind of like mystery machine where you just kind 473 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: of like put conditioning in and keep calibrating until you 474 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: get the output behavior you want, you can actually change 475 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: behavior in an extremely effective way like that, Like you know, 476 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: behavioral conditioning can be very powerful. And Landiar's Linear's argument 477 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: is that modern social media is sort of almost a 478 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: perfect vehicle for refining behavioral conditioning because it can collect 479 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: extremely minute data about you, and lots of it because 480 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: of course it has you know this connection like it. 481 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: It records everything you do and all the stuff you 482 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: do on social media. There's actually a lot of things 483 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: you do on social media that they can learn a 484 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: lot about, from your brain states to where you are 485 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,040 Speaker 1: through location tagging, to what you spend money on and 486 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: you know your linked accounts, to the words you use 487 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: reflecting your moods. Like they can, they know a lot 488 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: about you and about how what they show you affects 489 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: what you do right, you know, I would be loath 490 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: perhaps to say that they know us better than we 491 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: know ourselves, but they're that. I feel like they often, 492 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: these platforms often know us better than we are perhaps 493 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: prepared to admit to ourselves. Yeah, well, they know things 494 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: about you that are different from the way you think 495 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: about yourselves. They know about you from a behavioral conditioning 496 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: standpoint where they can track in a really minute way 497 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: what conditioning goes in and what behavior comes out. We 498 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: tend not to think of ourselves that way. We tend 499 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 1: to think of ourselves from the inside out. We think 500 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: about our own mind states. You know, we tell a 501 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: narrative about our behaviors in which everything is rationalized to 502 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: make sense. So it's often we feel kind of demeaned 503 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: when it's suggested that we are vulnerable to behavioral conditioning. 504 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: It's like no, no, no, I'm not. You know. It's 505 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: like how people think advertising doesn't work on that, you know, like, no, 506 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: I'm not more likely to buy a product because I 507 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: saw a commercial for it, but you know you probably are. 508 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: I mean, we just tend to think we're more mentally 509 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: independent of the effects of stimuli that we actually are. 510 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: Or we will will criticize and say it doesn't affect 511 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: us on one platform and then on another will celebrate 512 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: it without naming any names. One might use a particularly popular, 513 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: you know, music streaming service, and you might go, wow, 514 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: I really love the algorithm on this thing. It really 515 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: knows what I'm into it. Yes, me, it keeps giving 516 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: me musical suggestions that are they're totally on point. Yeah, 517 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: and you need you have to stop sometimes like, well, 518 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 1: I guess that's a good thing, but is it really Yeah. 519 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: So social media platforms they can gather all this data 520 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: about you, but also they have extreme psychological power over you. 521 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: I mean, especially the big one to think about his 522 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: Facebook just like it's this almost perfect machine for maximizing 523 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: potential and behavior modification. It can make you feel and 524 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: think what it wants with astonishing effectiveness just by showing 525 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: you certain things that it has figured out that when 526 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: it shows these things two people like you, you tend 527 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: to react by behaving a certain way. And then of 528 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 1: course it can just keep calibrating those those efforts more finally, 529 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: and finally, finally with extremely high quality feedback based on 530 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: the way it tracks your behavior and all the ways 531 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier. So this this is his basic argument, 532 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: and you can see that companies like Facebook are interested 533 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: in in always getting tighter and tighter control of the 534 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: data and feedback about you in these sorts of ways. 535 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: I was just reading a story the other day, uh, 536 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: in the M I T. Tech Review about Facebook being 537 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: involved in funding research on a wearable headband that could 538 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: supposedly read your thoughts. Now, I don't think we should 539 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: get overly alarmed about like this one particular news story, 540 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: because this kind of technology is probably very crude at 541 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: this point. You know, it doesn't tell you a lot 542 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: today going to go from like zero to black mirror 543 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: in a year on this particular front, right, But I 544 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: do think the fact that Facebook is funding this kind 545 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: of research should tell us something. They want to get deeper, 546 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: They want to go further. They want to get closer 547 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: and closer to your brain to know exactly how you're 548 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: reacting to things in real time all the time. They 549 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: want they want sort of like infinitely precise and finally 550 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: calibrated data about you. And why would they want that. 551 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: It's because it gives them better control over what you do. 552 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: And that control can be rented out to sponsors. And again, 553 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: and those sponsors could be fairly straightforward. They could be 554 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: somebody trying to get you to buy their brand of shoes, 555 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: or it could be a government trying to control what 556 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: you do on a certain day, or or control how 557 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: you feel about a political movement. Absolutely, and and that 558 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: certainly they did. The involvement of of of other states 559 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: or operator is acting on the part of on the 560 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: behalf of other states has has certainly been in the 561 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: news a great deal recently. Well, yeah, it's very strange 562 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: that like that. I don't know if people would have 563 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: predicted ten years ago. Maybe they did, and I wasn't 564 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: aware of it that social media would start to become 565 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: a major um statecraft and national security concern. Yeah. I mean, well, 566 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: I think we were all probably in the you know, 567 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: in the in the same boat. You know, for the 568 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: most part, when social media started up, it just seemed 569 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: like a thing that was a fun way to connect 570 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: with a few other people that you knew and maybe 571 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: meet some new people. It's yeah, and it was you know, 572 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: for the most part, you know, it was just you 573 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: and friends and potential new friends on there, and your 574 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: parents weren't on it yet. Major politicians were not on 575 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: it yet. Um major governments were seemingly not involved yet. Well, 576 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: I mean it's the I don't want to be overly, 577 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: I don't want to demonize it too much, but I 578 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: mean it's kind of the addiction model, right. It's like, 579 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: you know, your first your first dose of this drug 580 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: is free, maybe your first free, uh, several doses, you 581 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: get hooked. And then what Linear talks about a big 582 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: issue going on with these companies is that there is 583 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: this problem of network effects. Right. Network effects are the 584 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: thing that happens in digital media businesses where people tend 585 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: to get locked into a service, and once people are 586 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: locked into a service. It's very hard for there to 587 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: be an effective competitor and get people to move over there. 588 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: People are already on Facebook. If you tried to start 589 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: a better Facebook today, and people have tried to start 590 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: like nonprofit facebooks, no, nobody goes over there new before 591 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: and it lasts like an afternoon. Yeah, you're you're already. 592 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: People are on Facebook because that's where their friends are, 593 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: and that's where all that's where everything is happening. It's 594 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: network effects that keep people locked in. Once they're already there, 595 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: and once everybody's there, you can kind of like lock 596 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: the doors and then start doing whatever you want inside 597 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: and you can check out any time you like, right, 598 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: but you can never leave you all right, So we're 599 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: skipping and skipping around a bit. But another argument, basically 600 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: the fifth argument that Linear makes is that social media 601 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: is making what you say meaningless, and the core argument 602 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: here comes down to context. Now, entering into this argument, 603 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: I personally thought about the rather simple example that I'm 604 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: sure many of you are thinking of right now, and 605 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: an ambiguous text message or email that has taken out 606 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: of context because there are limitations to what we can 607 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: typically convey in these you know, limited generally short form 608 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: communication formats. Uh. You know, an emoji can only do 609 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: so much to provide context to what you're saying. You 610 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: ever notice how if you listen to a friend of 611 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: yours talk about something, it sounds normal and fine. But 612 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: if you listen to a snippet of a stranger's conversation, 613 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: they sound like a complete moron and it's like embarrassing 614 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: or or at best like a cryptic alien where you're 615 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: just like, what what what? What was that? I'll never know? 616 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: But do you know? I mean? And it's not like 617 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: strangers happened to be Like there's something wrong with people 618 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: you don't know as opposed to people you do know. 619 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: Is that when you know somebody, you have context based 620 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: in their personality and your relationship with them. What they're 621 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: saying makes sense to you because you know them and 622 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: you know how they generally think about things and all that. 623 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: If you were if you didn't know this person you 624 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: just happened to overhear them. Is you know, you walk 625 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: by on the sidewalk and they were saying the same 626 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: thing that would normally say that would sound normal to 627 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: you as part of a conversation. You might think like, wow, 628 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: what that What a freak. I know, people probably think 629 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: the same thing about me all the time. Oh, I'm 630 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: sure people think that about I mean I think about 631 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: this all the time, Like I'll be out somewhere having 632 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: a conversation about Highland or to the quickening, and I'm like, 633 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: what do I sound like? What kind of what kind 634 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: of idiot do I sound like to somebody who doesn't 635 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: know me? I mean, I probably maybe I sound that 636 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: bad to people who do know me, but no. Alright, 637 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: So but anyway, coming back to linear here, he's getting 638 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: some of thisp flies to his case, but basically he's 639 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: saying that you with context or the lack of context, 640 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: you know, it comes down to the lack of individual 641 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: control over context on social media. And he points to 642 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: two extreme examples of this online to sort of, huh, 643 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: you know, better illustrate what's happening elsewhere. So, like the 644 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: two extreme cases would be when, um, when you have 645 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,240 Speaker 1: legit ads popping up on say, terrorist recruitment videos on YouTube, 646 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: which was which was a problem at least early on, 647 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: is that you would have a legitimate advertiser and ultimately 648 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: an illegitimate content or an illegitimate user, and those would 649 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: be matched together in the context, would would be you know, 650 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: accidental and terrible. Yeah, platforms are juxtaposing content without understanding 651 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: what that content is, and it very often doesn't reflect 652 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: well on any of the content, or certainly on some 653 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 1: of it. Right. And then the other example he brought up, 654 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: we're when you have images of say, women and girls 655 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 1: whose whose images are are sexualized or incorporated into violent 656 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: media without their consent. Again, that's like a it's horrible, 657 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: and it is an extreme example, but he argues that 658 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: these extreme cases are possible because social media in general 659 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: robs us of control over context. When we express ourselves online, 660 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 1: we have no idea how that expression will be presented 661 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: specifically to anybody else. How often is there some public 662 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: controversy about like a tweet where you know, somebody is 663 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: like somebody's like, hey, I found a tweet by ex celebrity, 664 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: you know, where they said something that looks really bad, 665 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: and then that person defends themselves by saying, but you 666 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,760 Speaker 1: took it out of context. And what you really feel 667 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: about this, of course, is going to very highly case 668 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: by case because maybe the context changes the meaning of 669 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: it and maybe it doesn't. But when it's is presented 670 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: as a snippet that individual doesn't have control of the context. 671 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: Maybe you have control of the context, but but they don't. 672 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 1: It's similar when and we certainly see this, uh in 673 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: our political cycles as well. You know, something that a 674 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: candidate said or wrote, uh ten years ago is you know, 675 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,839 Speaker 1: twenty years ago, what have you? Uh? Is taken out 676 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: as a snippet and presented often without completely either without 677 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: context or without like complete contexts as to what they 678 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 1: were talking about. Uh. And you know, and in some cases, 679 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: I mean, anytime you're quoting somebody, you are you are 680 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,919 Speaker 1: literally taking them out of context. But like, uh, there 681 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: are ways that being taken out of context can be 682 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: pernicious and then they're i mean, they're totally normal ways 683 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,919 Speaker 1: to do it too. But then again, is when when 684 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: something is taken out of context, is there's kind of 685 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: implied by that statement that context is usually in place. 686 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,959 Speaker 1: And it's like saying, who who left that this toy 687 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: on the kitchen floor? Let's put it back where it 688 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 1: those you don't want to live in a reality where 689 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: the toys are always on the kitchen floor, in which 690 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: context is always out of place. And uh, And so 691 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: that's ultimately what he's getting out with social media. I'm 692 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: gonna gonna read just a quote from his writings here, quote, 693 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: we have given up our connection to context. Social media 694 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: mashes up meaning. Whatever you say will be contextualized and 695 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: given meaning by the way algorithms and crowds of fake 696 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: people who are actually algorithms match it up with what 697 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: other people say. And he continues, speaking through social media 698 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: isn't really speaking at all. Context is applied to what 699 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,439 Speaker 1: you say after you say it for someone else's purposes 700 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: and profit. So essentially, we have surrendered context to the 701 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: bummer platform, he's saying, rendering communication quote petty, shallow and predictable, 702 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 1: and as such, only the extreme voices, the worst of us, 703 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: the loudest, the you know, the most acidic voices in 704 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: our coal sure are going to be the ones that 705 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,919 Speaker 1: rise up. Oh yeah, I mean, this is a whole 706 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: other point he makes that I guess we're not going 707 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: into in depth, but I mean, he argues that these 708 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: platforms necessarily promote the worst voices because the worst voices 709 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: tend to drive engagement, and the platforms want to drive engagement. 710 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: What gets people using the platforms more, keeps people glued 711 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: to Twitter, glued to Facebook. It's like whatever gin's up 712 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: the most negative emotion, right, And one cookword on engagement. 713 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,399 Speaker 1: One thing that he hammers home a number of times 714 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 1: in the book is that when you hear the word 715 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: engagement used in a social media context, what we're talking 716 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,959 Speaker 1: about is manipulation. So try to think about that next 717 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: time if you're attending a meeting or reading an article, 718 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: uh sort of like especially a pro social media argument, 719 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 1: uh you know about social about engagement, just uh switch 720 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: it out for the word manipulation and see how the 721 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: taste fits you. But called engagement cotton manipulation of whatever 722 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,320 Speaker 1: you like. It ends up creating the environment where everybody 723 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: has to play that game in order to be heard. 724 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: And of course that means it changes the way that say, 725 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: legitimate journalistic uh um publications have to play the game. 726 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: You know, you have to uh lean into even you know, 727 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 1: more ridiculous headlines for instance clickbai clickbait headlines in order 728 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: to get that precious and engagement, and that can have 729 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: an eroding effect on the institutions of journalism and themselves. 730 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, I mean well that also goes with the 731 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: just like it is the most uh the most toxic 732 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: or most uh, whatever voices gin up the most negative 733 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 1: emotion tend to be promoted on these platforms because they 734 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: drive engagement. The same could be true of topics. So 735 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,320 Speaker 1: like you might not say that, well, my voice is toxic, 736 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: but like, whatever topics get people the most, like upset 737 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 1: and worried and aggravated and angry and all that, those 738 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: topics are going to be favored by algorithms that are 739 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: trying to prease engagement. So they know, you know, I 740 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: think a lot of times, um, publishers of online media 741 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,360 Speaker 1: know that there are certain topics that get people really upset, 742 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: and those will be the highest performing articles on the 743 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: videos on social media those days. Yea. Like think of 744 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,919 Speaker 1: chemicals as engagement, like which chemicals are most engaging when 745 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 1: you get them on your skin? You know, I instantly 746 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: think of the ones that are going to sting right, uh, 747 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 1: And suddenly I can't think of anything but those stingy 748 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: places on my skin. Um. So you know again, one 749 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: of the things that he comes back around to too 750 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: is that you know what, in this context situation is 751 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: that what you were saying is only valuable or relevant 752 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 1: insofar as it serves the platform and again, you were 753 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,800 Speaker 1: not the customer on this platform. You are the product. 754 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,720 Speaker 1: The customers are those uh, those corporations or even state 755 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:56,720 Speaker 1: players that have the money to pay into the bummer system. Yeah. 756 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: Now I was glad to see that he thinks podcasts 757 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: have not been ruined yet. Yes, yes, so there there's 758 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: a whole section in this uh this argument where he 759 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,439 Speaker 1: goes on to discuss podcasts and uh and he makes 760 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 1: an argument that podcasts are a rare area of our 761 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: media that are not bummer yet. But he does dream 762 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: up and describe an absolute nightmare scenario for the future 763 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: of podcasts that I hope never comes to pass. And 764 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: while I was reading it, I was literally breaking out 765 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: in sweats. Yeah. I mean, because think about what we 766 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: do on the show, you know, stuff to blow your mind. 767 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: Is full of our personalities and our context, and we 768 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: have the time and we have the space to present 769 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,760 Speaker 1: topics and ideas, to present our takes and topics and ideas, 770 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: and a chance to share our personalities with the listener 771 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 1: in a continuous episodic manner. And as a result, you, 772 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 1: the listener, you kind of know us. You you know, 773 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 1: when when when we get something wrong, you have the 774 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 1: context to understand what's going on generally, you know, and 775 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,239 Speaker 1: what we do on this show is not easily reduced 776 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: to sound own bites. That's true. And this has been 777 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: a problem before, right, Yeah, you should trust us on 778 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,399 Speaker 1: this because every now and then, not currently, but it's 779 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,719 Speaker 1: did with a fair amount of regularity, someone will come 780 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: to us and say, we need some sound bites. Yeah, 781 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,919 Speaker 1: give us fifteen second clips of your show to show 782 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,919 Speaker 1: what the show is really about. To show what the show, 783 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: that should be the clip. But no, it's like it's 784 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: impossible to do. When you try to pull out fifteen 785 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,359 Speaker 1: seconds of our show, nothing sounds right, I mean, nothing 786 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 1: really makes sense on its own. That's that short. Yeah, 787 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: we're not we're not a zing or factory here. We're 788 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,399 Speaker 1: not calculating celebrities or want to be celebrities, and we're 789 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: not actively trying to play the sound bite game. We're 790 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: not trying to play the bummer game with this show. 791 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: But to clarify all this and really explain what he's 792 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: talking about, uh, Lanear devises a way to quote ruined podcasting. 793 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 1: Uh And then he had nobody do this. Okay, so 794 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,279 Speaker 1: somebody's gonna do I mean, I yeah, I can, I 795 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: can see it. How Basically, he describes a sort of 796 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 1: podcast aggregator app that serves up snippets from podcasts with ads, 797 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: of course, and the resulting situation would be that podcasts 798 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: would then be incentivized to produce the sort of content 799 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 1: that lends itself to this format, so fiery, you know, 800 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 1: extreme attention grabbing sound bites, the kind. Okay, so imagine 801 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: clips of podcasts that are that are prioritized the same 802 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: way that like tweets or Facebook posts or YouTube videos 803 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 1: are prioritized by the content recommendation algorithms. So just basically 804 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:40,240 Speaker 1: like pulling out the most egregious and like negative emotion 805 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:45,919 Speaker 1: conjuring moments of things. Yeah, and the horrible outside of context. Yeah, 806 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: And the horrible thing is that I can well imagine 807 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,200 Speaker 1: the marketing on soci an aggregator. You know, it would 808 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: be something like, don't have time for all the podcasts 809 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: in your life? Well, now you don't have to let 810 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 1: telepod pick out the best parts of the shows and 811 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 1: topics you love and serve it up to you in 812 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,000 Speaker 1: an easy to consume dose of wonder that fits into 813 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,280 Speaker 1: your busy schedule. And I and it sounds kind of convincing. 814 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: You know, it's like, yeah, I'm busy. I don't have 815 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 1: time for a whole bunch of hour long podcasts. There's 816 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,800 Speaker 1: so many of them. Why not let the algorithm slice 817 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: out just the choice cuts from all my favorite shows 818 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 1: and give them to me. Friends out there in podcast land. 819 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,799 Speaker 1: If this happens, boycott I do not do this. Do 820 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: not unless you're already this type of show that is, 821 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:30,839 Speaker 1: you know, leaning, because there are shows out there that 822 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 1: do land themselves well to uh to this sort of thing, 823 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,880 Speaker 1: not necessarily by design, but just by sort of the 824 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,839 Speaker 1: suit that the type of topics are already covering, or 825 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: the individuals involved, the personalities involved, you know. And it's 826 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,319 Speaker 1: not saying that you know that their villains because of it, 827 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 1: but I think there are a lot of great shows 828 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: and you know, hopefully ours is on that list where yeah, 829 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 1: you you you can't cut out these little segments and 830 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 1: expect the host organism to survive or to be able 831 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,520 Speaker 1: to communicate what it's trying to com unicate. It's gonna 832 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:06,240 Speaker 1: be called pod butcher. And if pod Butcher came to pass, 833 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:07,840 Speaker 1: you know, I can tell you that we would not 834 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,720 Speaker 1: be able to produce the sort of show we produced 835 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: now that you presumably like. If we had to satisfy 836 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,279 Speaker 1: such an algorithm, and what you like would have even 837 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: less to do with it, because you would have handed 838 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: your likes and choices over to Bummer, just as we, uh, 839 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,880 Speaker 1: you know, would have handed over context itself. And the 840 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,080 Speaker 1: interesting thing is Linear is not the only person, or 841 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,840 Speaker 1: the first really to recognize the death of context in 842 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 1: social media. I was looking back at an article from 843 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:39,319 Speaker 1: twelve and Forbes from Susan Tardonico, and she wrote, quote, 844 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: every relevant metrics shows that we are interacting at breakneck 845 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,479 Speaker 1: speed with frequency through social media, But are we really 846 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:51,359 Speaker 1: communicating with our communication context stripped away? We are now 847 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: attempting to forge relationships and make decisions based on phrases, abbreviations, snippets, emoticons, 848 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: which may or may not be accurate rep presentations of 849 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,319 Speaker 1: the truth. And we can we can actually go back 850 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,520 Speaker 1: even even further on this notion as well um on 851 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: the show. In the past, I've discussed the work of 852 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:13,200 Speaker 1: futurists Alvin and Heidi toffler Uh. They wrote an important 853 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,759 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy book titled Future Shock, which was also made 854 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,640 Speaker 1: into a uninformative but also kind of more entertaining than 855 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,840 Speaker 1: informative orson Wells narrated TV show. That's also that's wonderful 856 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,719 Speaker 1: in its own right. But the book, uh was pretty great, 857 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: and they discussed the apparent and possible disruptions of the 858 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 1: human experience and human society due to rapid advances and technology. 859 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,439 Speaker 1: And I would like everybody to consider this quote from 860 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,960 Speaker 1: Future Shock nineteen seventy again quote. Rational behavior in particular 861 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,400 Speaker 1: depends upon a ceaseless flow of data from the environment. 862 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,280 Speaker 1: It depends upon the power of the individual to predict, 863 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 1: with at least fair success, the outcome of his own actions. 864 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:56,719 Speaker 1: To do this, he must be able to predict how 865 00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,320 Speaker 1: the environment will respond to his acts. Sanity It's elf 866 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,840 Speaker 1: thus hinges on man's ability to predict his immediate personal 867 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,200 Speaker 1: future on the basis of information fed him by the 868 00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:11,200 Speaker 1: environment and me personally. I would extrapolate this to the 869 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,880 Speaker 1: digital environment that we've grown increasingly dependent upon. You know, 870 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 1: it's like every day, like multiple times a day, over 871 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,960 Speaker 1: and over again, we're plugging into the digital environment and 872 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,080 Speaker 1: checking out of our physical environment as being a main 873 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,239 Speaker 1: determiner of our behavior. But it's not an environment that's 874 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,759 Speaker 1: chiefly mechanically dominated by things like you know, everyday Newtonian 875 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 1: physics that we can predict pretty well. It's more like 876 00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:41,040 Speaker 1: the main environments that we're participating in are like the giant, 877 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,959 Speaker 1: you know, super complex slot machine where you you pull 878 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:46,879 Speaker 1: the lever and you know, you can pull the lever 879 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 1: in a few different kinds of ways and you don't 880 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,279 Speaker 1: know exactly what's going to come back out at you. 881 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,160 Speaker 1: So this is this is the digital context, the digital environment, 882 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:56,920 Speaker 1: and when everyone to keep that in mind, is I 883 00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,879 Speaker 1: continue reading this quote from the Toffler's here quote. When 884 00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:03,160 Speaker 1: the individual is plunged into a fast and irregularly changing 885 00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:07,920 Speaker 1: situation or a novelty loaded context, however, his predictive of 886 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,720 Speaker 1: accuracy plummets. He can no longer make the reasonably correct 887 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:16,080 Speaker 1: assessments on which rational behavior is dependent. To compensate for this, 888 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:18,800 Speaker 1: to bring his accuracy up to the normal level again, 889 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,000 Speaker 1: he must scoop up and process far more information than before, 890 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,800 Speaker 1: and he must do this at extremely high rates of speed. 891 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 1: In short, the more rapidly changing and novel the environment, 892 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,959 Speaker 1: the more information the individual needs to process in order 893 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,359 Speaker 1: to make effective rational decisions. And of course there are 894 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,799 Speaker 1: limits to our speed. So anyway that the tofflers, I think, 895 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,160 Speaker 1: really strike a chord with our current situation in this passage, 896 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,800 Speaker 1: at least from my standpoint. I mean, sanity itself hinges 897 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,719 Speaker 1: on our ability to predict our immediate personal future on 898 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,840 Speaker 1: the basis of information fed to us by the digital environment. 899 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,280 Speaker 1: And here we are attempting to communicate, act, and absorb 900 00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:00,160 Speaker 1: knowledge in a social media environment that makes it impossible 901 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 1: to control the information fed to us, absorb it all properly, 902 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,480 Speaker 1: and control the context of our own voices. Yeah, all true, 903 00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,200 Speaker 1: I think. I mean it's it's kind of scary. I 904 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,080 Speaker 1: mean to think about the fact that I'm quite sure 905 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 1: that nobody, there is nobody at Facebook who fully understands 906 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,760 Speaker 1: all the decisions made by the you know, the content 907 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:26,520 Speaker 1: recommendation algorithm that creates the Facebook feed, right, I mean there, 908 00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:28,279 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe they could go maybe they have some 909 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:30,080 Speaker 1: way of going through if they could look at an 910 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:34,000 Speaker 1: individual one and say, okay, here are probably some reasons 911 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,279 Speaker 1: why you were shown this, why you were shown that. 912 00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,200 Speaker 1: But they can't, like they can't predict it all. You know, 913 00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:43,000 Speaker 1: you can't generate one of these feeds just uh, you know, 914 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,279 Speaker 1: with your own brain. Yeah, I mean, and we're we're 915 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:50,720 Speaker 1: ultimately we're just continuing to understand what and to what extent, 916 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,880 Speaker 1: you know, the harm is. I was looking around, um 917 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,520 Speaker 1: at some various uh, you know, posts and sort of 918 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,960 Speaker 1: industry thoughts about about how social media has been linked 919 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,319 Speaker 1: to struggles with depression and anxiety. Uh. And there are 920 00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 1: actually some serious discussions going on within the journalism field 921 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,800 Speaker 1: where journalists often feel the need to maintain a social 922 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,759 Speaker 1: media presence or are mandated to and are forced to 923 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,759 Speaker 1: deal with the resulting actually, I mean actual trauma and PTSD. 924 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,400 Speaker 1: Oh man, if you're a journalist, especially working in some 925 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,800 Speaker 1: kinds of fields, you are going to be inundated day 926 00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,960 Speaker 1: in and day out with with hateful messaging from people 927 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,719 Speaker 1: who don't like whatever you're you're saying or doing in 928 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,920 Speaker 1: your career. Uh. People telling you to go kill yourself, 929 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 1: people telling you that you're a fraud. And you know, 930 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:40,000 Speaker 1: and heaven yea, and Heaven forbid your your gender, your 931 00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:43,480 Speaker 1: gender identity, your your your race or um or what 932 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,040 Speaker 1: have you. Uh, you know, happens to to you know, 933 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:48,560 Speaker 1: put you in the lines of sights of you know, 934 00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:54,000 Speaker 1: particular troll groups on social media. Totally. And and I 935 00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,359 Speaker 1: know that there is a kind of common reaction, I think, 936 00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,480 Speaker 1: especially from people who don't deal with this problem themselves, 937 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: say like, you know, it's just people, it's just trolling. 938 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,000 Speaker 1: Just get over it, you know, it's just trolling. Like 939 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,319 Speaker 1: you're probably just failing to imagine what it is like 940 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,520 Speaker 1: to to actually face this kind of like hate and 941 00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 1: abuse all the time. You know, we're we're highly social creature. 942 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,960 Speaker 1: I mean, even if you don't actually fear violence against yourself, 943 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,319 Speaker 1: which you might have good reason to, depending on you know, 944 00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,680 Speaker 1: who you are and who these people are and what 945 00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:26,759 Speaker 1: they say. But I mean, if anything should be clear, 946 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,160 Speaker 1: is that the digital world and the physical world are 947 00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:33,560 Speaker 1: are not separated by an impassable chasm, you know. I mean, 948 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,719 Speaker 1: we online Israel life Israel life, and we see violence 949 00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,560 Speaker 1: stemming from digital activities. Yeah. But even if you're not 950 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,760 Speaker 1: in that category, dealing with an onslaught of just hate 951 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:48,799 Speaker 1: and abuse all the time, is it is life ruining. Yeah, 952 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:50,920 Speaker 1: And and generally we're not trained to deal with it. 953 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,040 Speaker 1: So a lot of the discussions going on in journalism 954 00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,880 Speaker 1: are are, you know, should we be training people to 955 00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,040 Speaker 1: to cope with the flood of negative commentary and effectively 956 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,279 Speaker 1: sort out what you be ignored, what requires attention, and 957 00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,000 Speaker 1: what constitutes an actual threat that should be you know, 958 00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:09,440 Speaker 1: reported to authorities and to reiterate, of course, it's not 959 00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:11,719 Speaker 1: just journalists that deal with this kind of issue, but 960 00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,279 Speaker 1: like journalism is one field where a lot of times 961 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:16,759 Speaker 1: people have to be on these platforms, whether they want 962 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,520 Speaker 1: to be or not, and also by the nature of 963 00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: their work just naturally just attract a lot of negative attention. 964 00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,120 Speaker 1: Right if, if, if someone wants to learn more about this, 965 00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,560 Speaker 1: I should point out that Kyle Bessie wrote a great 966 00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,759 Speaker 1: post just last month at journalism dot co dot uk 967 00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:37,160 Speaker 1: titled how social media impacts mental health and Journalists. And 968 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:39,200 Speaker 1: of course, in thinking about all this, you know, comes 969 00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,240 Speaker 1: back to the fact that like this is the reality 970 00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:45,239 Speaker 1: we've built for ourselves, you know. I mean it's through 971 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,440 Speaker 1: this complex interface of you know, of corporate interests and 972 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,480 Speaker 1: algorithms and and so forth, but still like this is 973 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,600 Speaker 1: the world we've made for ourselves. We've created, we've created, 974 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:59,040 Speaker 1: you know, through our use of technology, these new pitfalls 975 00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,480 Speaker 1: and these new pairs to social engagement. All right, we 976 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:04,799 Speaker 1: need to take another break, but after this we'll be 977 00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:10,560 Speaker 1: back with more of our discussion. Thank thank alright, we're back. 978 00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,759 Speaker 1: So one of Jarren Lanier's arguments from this book ten 979 00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:18,480 Speaker 1: arguments to what is it? How exactly does it go 980 00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,000 Speaker 1: for deleting your social media accounts? Right now? Yeah? There 981 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:25,360 Speaker 1: it is. Um. One of them is that quote social 982 00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:30,360 Speaker 1: media hates your soul? Now, Robert, what are we to 983 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,160 Speaker 1: make of this? So this is this is argument ten. 984 00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,800 Speaker 1: So this is the like, the final, all encompassing argument. 985 00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,160 Speaker 1: So in a sense, it's almost a little bit unfair 986 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,440 Speaker 1: for me to skip to it because it it hinges 987 00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:44,080 Speaker 1: upon all the arguments that he's made. But it's not 988 00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:46,520 Speaker 1: going to spoil the book. It's not. But to give 989 00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:47,880 Speaker 1: you a taste of it, I'm just gonna read the 990 00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,480 Speaker 1: second paragraph from the first page of this argument quote 991 00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:55,360 Speaker 1: to review. Your understanding of others has been disrupted because 992 00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,680 Speaker 1: you don't know what they've experienced in their feeds. While 993 00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:01,920 Speaker 1: the reverse is also true, the empathy others might offer 994 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,080 Speaker 1: you is challenged because you can't know the context in 995 00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,440 Speaker 1: which you'll be understood. You're probably becoming more of an a, 996 00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:13,239 Speaker 1: but you're also probably sadder. Another pair of bummer disruptions 997 00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,640 Speaker 1: that are mirror images your ability to know the world, 998 00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,240 Speaker 1: to know truth has been degraded, while the world's ability 999 00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:24,560 Speaker 1: to know you has been corrupted. Politics has become unreal 1000 00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:29,799 Speaker 1: and terrifying, while economics has become unreal and unsustainable, two 1001 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,239 Speaker 1: sides of the same coin. That's pretty bleak, And it's 1002 00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:35,640 Speaker 1: hard to imagine just from that paragraph that he is 1003 00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:39,920 Speaker 1: ultimately presenting an optimistic message. He is, he is, yeah, 1004 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,600 Speaker 1: but you know he's he's saying though that Look, Bummer's 1005 00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:46,440 Speaker 1: behavioral modification has taken place not only at an individual scale, 1006 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:50,120 Speaker 1: but at a societal scale. In this it's reach is 1007 00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:53,440 Speaker 1: more like a religion, and it's and it concerns not 1008 00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,920 Speaker 1: only the way you live your life online, but what 1009 00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,640 Speaker 1: it means to be a person at all, which, again 1010 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:01,759 Speaker 1: may say on a bit extreme and a bet out there, 1011 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,120 Speaker 1: but I think he really makes a strong case for this. Uh. 1012 00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,480 Speaker 1: First of all, coming back to free will, which we 1013 00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,040 Speaker 1: talked about earlier, free will is central to most religions. 1014 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:13,680 Speaker 1: You're you're hard pressed to find a spiritual model in 1015 00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:17,520 Speaker 1: which humans are mere automatons. But under Bummer, he argues, 1016 00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,880 Speaker 1: free will isn't destroyed, but it is assaulted. It's degraded, 1017 00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,319 Speaker 1: you have less of it, and certain parties wind up 1018 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,400 Speaker 1: with more alongside, you know, their wealth and power that 1019 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:30,719 Speaker 1: they've already accumulated or are accumulating as they take more 1020 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:33,000 Speaker 1: and more of your free will, you know. And this, actually, 1021 00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:36,880 Speaker 1: I think does does go along with I don't know. 1022 00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:39,279 Speaker 1: So we've talked before about the coherence of the idea 1023 00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:41,080 Speaker 1: of free will on this show, and I'm sure we're 1024 00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,719 Speaker 1: gonna get a lot of kind of like a materialist 1025 00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:45,680 Speaker 1: push back on the idea of free will, saying, hey, 1026 00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,440 Speaker 1: wait a minute, free will is an incoherent concept. I 1027 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:52,040 Speaker 1: think you could make that argument based on some definitions 1028 00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,560 Speaker 1: of free will, but in this sense, the sense that 1029 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,240 Speaker 1: he uses it, I think free will is an important 1030 00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:00,080 Speaker 1: thing to consider and is a real concept. Basically it 1031 00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:04,240 Speaker 1: free will means um the feeling that you have control 1032 00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:09,279 Speaker 1: over your own behavior by understanding the influences on yourself 1033 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,319 Speaker 1: and thinking about them consciously. And you know, you can 1034 00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:15,640 Speaker 1: never understand all of the influences on yourself, but there 1035 00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:17,799 Speaker 1: are definitely ways in which you can be in a 1036 00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,319 Speaker 1: system where you you feel like you understand most of 1037 00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:23,319 Speaker 1: the inputs that are coming in on you, and you 1038 00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:27,360 Speaker 1: can process them consciously and your decision making versus a 1039 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:32,040 Speaker 1: system like like a kind of behavioral modification system where 1040 00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:34,919 Speaker 1: you in fact don't know you're being influenced. You don't 1041 00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,080 Speaker 1: know who's influencing you, and this is all opaque. You're 1042 00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:41,560 Speaker 1: just suddenly producing behaviors that feel alien and you don't 1043 00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:45,680 Speaker 1: know why you're doing them. Yes. Now, another religion based 1044 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:50,240 Speaker 1: argumently makes uh in this chapter is that Bummer ultimately 1045 00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,719 Speaker 1: wants you to believe it is the Internet and it 1046 00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:56,799 Speaker 1: is the main part of your devices. Uh. But but 1047 00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:58,959 Speaker 1: it but it ultimately is separated. You know. He says 1048 00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:00,880 Speaker 1: you can have the Internet with social media, and he 1049 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,680 Speaker 1: makes a strong argument for that. You know, that's ultimately 1050 00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:05,360 Speaker 1: I think his point is that you know, you you 1051 00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:07,800 Speaker 1: could have a great Internet just by sort of switching 1052 00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,279 Speaker 1: everything from the behavior modification pay for a model to 1053 00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,279 Speaker 1: like a subscription model where you know, like you could 1054 00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:17,280 Speaker 1: have something like Facebook, but instead of modifying your behavior 1055 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,080 Speaker 1: uh to pay for it, you just you just pay 1056 00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:23,640 Speaker 1: to get access, right and uh and uh. Lanier argues 1057 00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:25,800 Speaker 1: that you know, in the same way that Protestants rejected 1058 00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,600 Speaker 1: papal indulgences, you know you can you know, you can 1059 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,120 Speaker 1: reject the social media, but keep the Internet. You can 1060 00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:36,480 Speaker 1: reject the version of your faith that is uh that is, 1061 00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, tiresome or offensive or dangerous, and keep the 1062 00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:42,000 Speaker 1: parts that work for you. I mean, I've said that 1063 00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:45,800 Speaker 1: before regarding just religion in general. You know, whatever religion 1064 00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:49,120 Speaker 1: you adhere to, uh, I can almost guarantee you there 1065 00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,400 Speaker 1: is some version of it, uh that is that is 1066 00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:56,200 Speaker 1: ultimately more accepting and uh you know, and more liberal 1067 00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:58,960 Speaker 1: in its outlook. Uh you know, whether it's in your 1068 00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,560 Speaker 1: immediate area or or you have to go out to 1069 00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:05,480 Speaker 1: find it. As another issue, he also makes the argument 1070 00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:09,640 Speaker 1: that Bummer activates the pack setting of her mind, and 1071 00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:13,160 Speaker 1: in doing so, it quote resurrects old conflicts that had 1072 00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:17,320 Speaker 1: been associated with religion in order to engage people as 1073 00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:22,560 Speaker 1: intensely as possible. So basically, social media riles us up 1074 00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:26,840 Speaker 1: and causes the kind of like pack mentality and tribalism 1075 00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:28,840 Speaker 1: that normally you would have to look to a religion 1076 00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:30,960 Speaker 1: to do. Yeah, and what he This is part of 1077 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,200 Speaker 1: an earlier argument in the book, but basically it's part 1078 00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,840 Speaker 1: of an argument he makes about how uh social media 1079 00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:41,120 Speaker 1: is making us meaner and and worse by by triggering 1080 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,920 Speaker 1: types of thought patterns that are more associated with obsession 1081 00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:48,440 Speaker 1: with hierarchies and and in group out group thinking and 1082 00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:53,360 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Yeah, and domination mentality, yeah, dominated culture. 1083 00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:56,960 Speaker 1: And then he he also points out that Bummer ultimately 1084 00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:00,120 Speaker 1: asked you to have faith not in in God or 1085 00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:04,080 Speaker 1: God's or a godess, but in the almighty algorithms that 1086 00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:08,320 Speaker 1: decide what slice of news, political commentary, fake news, parody, 1087 00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:11,560 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory, or just outright hate you see in your feed, 1088 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:15,400 Speaker 1: and that it's you know, entirely anti ENLiGHT enlightenment in 1089 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:19,280 Speaker 1: that regard, and that it makes learning subservient to human 1090 00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:24,120 Speaker 1: power hierarchies. Well, yeah, I mean by allowing these algorithms 1091 00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,920 Speaker 1: to control what you see all day, you are, in practice, 1092 00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,840 Speaker 1: whether you know you think about this or not, in practice, 1093 00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,080 Speaker 1: you're giving your consent to somebody to shape who you 1094 00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:37,720 Speaker 1: become as a person. And uh, And that that's a 1095 00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:39,880 Speaker 1: lot of power, that's a lot of faith to put 1096 00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:43,040 Speaker 1: in some business. He goes on from here to discuss 1097 00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:47,920 Speaker 1: another destructive force in human discourse, memes. Um, So this 1098 00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:49,920 Speaker 1: is that this is one of these areas where when 1099 00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:51,680 Speaker 1: I talk about memes, I feel like I often just 1100 00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:54,520 Speaker 1: come off like an old person, an old, grumpy person 1101 00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:57,080 Speaker 1: who doesn't understand how the kids talk, you know, complaining 1102 00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,560 Speaker 1: about memes. But no, I I am with you there, 1103 00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:01,760 Speaker 1: even when I see a meme that's funny, and I 1104 01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:03,560 Speaker 1: see him all the time, you know, I'm not I'm 1105 01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,720 Speaker 1: not above memes. It's like, yeah, some are really funny 1106 01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:08,720 Speaker 1: and I like them, but there's a part of me 1107 01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,480 Speaker 1: that always sort of rebels. And I think it has 1108 01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:14,080 Speaker 1: to do with what we were talking about about context earlier. 1109 01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:18,840 Speaker 1: You know, I worry about meme culture degrading the context 1110 01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:22,560 Speaker 1: of original images and text in a way that that 1111 01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:26,800 Speaker 1: just constantly batters down our defenses and batters down our 1112 01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:30,800 Speaker 1: desire to understand things and in their original meaning. Yeah. 1113 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,600 Speaker 1: He He writes that memes may at first, you know, 1114 01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,160 Speaker 1: when we first engage with them, they might seem to 1115 01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:39,720 Speaker 1: amplify what we're feeling or trying to say. And you know, 1116 01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:42,480 Speaker 1: for instance, somebody posts a bit of its news or 1117 01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:44,440 Speaker 1: thought and you back it up with like, what do 1118 01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:46,720 Speaker 1: you see in so many Facebook responses? Or I guess 1119 01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:48,920 Speaker 1: on other social media platforms as well, you see like 1120 01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,760 Speaker 1: gifts and memes that seem to be sort of an 1121 01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,320 Speaker 1: amen brother kind of an argument or or or some 1122 01:00:55,360 --> 01:01:00,080 Speaker 1: other interaction with the content. But but but ultimately, like this, 1123 01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:03,920 Speaker 1: this feeling of amplification is an illusion. You're only reinforcing 1124 01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:07,080 Speaker 1: the notion that virality is truth. Whatever is the most 1125 01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,840 Speaker 1: viral is rewarded, and that's a key part of Bummer's design. 1126 01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,440 Speaker 1: But just because it's viral does not mean it is 1127 01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:18,360 Speaker 1: the truth. And uh, which seems like an overstatement of 1128 01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,080 Speaker 1: the obvious when I say it like that, But but again, 1129 01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:23,960 Speaker 1: don't think about you know, think about the way we 1130 01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:27,200 Speaker 1: interact with it and the way we use memes. I mean, 1131 01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:31,200 Speaker 1: if you go to any fact checking website, just pick 1132 01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:33,120 Speaker 1: your favorite I mean, poll it a fact or whatever, 1133 01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:37,800 Speaker 1: and you like scroll down and you scroll down to see, 1134 01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:42,920 Speaker 1: you know, like truth ratings by source. What's always the 1135 01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,440 Speaker 1: number one source of total fabrications. You might think of 1136 01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:49,680 Speaker 1: immediately your least favorite politician, but no, it's not a person. 1137 01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:53,920 Speaker 1: It's viral image. Viral image is always the number one 1138 01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,720 Speaker 1: source of false facts that are spreading around the Internet. 1139 01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:00,800 Speaker 1: Why is that, Well, because viral image is an extremely 1140 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:05,720 Speaker 1: powerful method for spreading falsehoods. It spreads way easier than 1141 01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,960 Speaker 1: somebody going on TV and saying them and here goes 1142 01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:11,000 Speaker 1: on from here to you know, also point out that 1143 01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:15,600 Speaker 1: many of these bummer companies and in some of the 1144 01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:18,400 Speaker 1: key individuals associated with them, you know, they're also they 1145 01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:21,320 Speaker 1: also put a lot of emphasis on grander ideas of 1146 01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:27,160 Speaker 1: organizing all information, of providing communities with purpose of creating AI. 1147 01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:29,760 Speaker 1: And ultimately he says that you know, this is a 1148 01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:33,480 Speaker 1: this is a danger to to personhood. You know that 1149 01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:36,959 Speaker 1: there's a spiritual danger uh, to us in our sense 1150 01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:39,880 Speaker 1: of personhood when we start, you know, putting too much 1151 01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:44,800 Speaker 1: emphasis on these these non human models of of thinking 1152 01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:48,280 Speaker 1: and humanity. Uh, you know which, Again this is getting 1153 01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,080 Speaker 1: into kind of heady, headier territory than most of the book. 1154 01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:54,560 Speaker 1: But I think it's it's an interesting case. You know 1155 01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:59,240 Speaker 1: what is how how are these powerful corporations thinking about 1156 01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:01,480 Speaker 1: what it is to be human? And then how is 1157 01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:04,520 Speaker 1: that changing the definition at least like the sort of 1158 01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:09,200 Speaker 1: the spiritual definition and the self defining principle of personhood. 1159 01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,520 Speaker 1: So again, like this this argument in the book, I 1160 01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:15,120 Speaker 1: it does have I think there is a possibility that 1161 01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:17,640 Speaker 1: you hear this or even you read it, and you start, 1162 01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:20,800 Speaker 1: you know, asking yourself, well, is that that really the case? 1163 01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,480 Speaker 1: So we're really thinking about social media like it's a religion? 1164 01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:26,320 Speaker 1: Is it still? Is it? Is it actually uh serving 1165 01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:30,919 Speaker 1: a purpose that is akin to religion? And I think 1166 01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:32,960 Speaker 1: I think he makes a strong case. I think that 1167 01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:34,640 Speaker 1: I think it's one of those things where you kind 1168 01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:37,200 Speaker 1: of like you wake up one day and you realize, oh, 1169 01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:40,360 Speaker 1: I I have joined the church social media and I've 1170 01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:43,400 Speaker 1: actually I've been attending services for years and I didn't 1171 01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:47,400 Speaker 1: quite realize it. You know, you know, you tend to 1172 01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:49,520 Speaker 1: think of of a religion as you know, is this 1173 01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:51,760 Speaker 1: as a as a church or a temple? Is these 1174 01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,480 Speaker 1: images of God's and you don't think of the roles 1175 01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:58,720 Speaker 1: that they play in a culture. And how even as 1176 01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:01,520 Speaker 1: you know, for the most part, and you know in 1177 01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:05,320 Speaker 1: many cultures, there is a movement away from these organized religions. 1178 01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:07,880 Speaker 1: You know, there's this there's this possibility that we are 1179 01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:11,720 Speaker 1: we are rebuilding something that operates in much the same 1180 01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:16,040 Speaker 1: way or maybe in just some of the same worst ways, Yeah, 1181 01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,520 Speaker 1: without without some of the same, without providing some of 1182 01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:21,080 Speaker 1: the best. Because I've you know, as I've discussed in 1183 01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:23,120 Speaker 1: the show before, you know, I think they're I think 1184 01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:28,600 Speaker 1: religion and spirituality, uh that they both have tremendous benefits 1185 01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:33,880 Speaker 1: to individuals and as certainly to uh uh to societies 1186 01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:35,760 Speaker 1: and uh you know, you can get that sense of 1187 01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:38,800 Speaker 1: community with a religious organization. You know, they can do 1188 01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:42,800 Speaker 1: a great deal of harm if they are you know, 1189 01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:47,200 Speaker 1: if they have toxic beliefs wound up into their their fabric, 1190 01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:52,920 Speaker 1: or they they promote uh toxic personality dynamics. Sometimes, yes, certainly, 1191 01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:56,280 Speaker 1: but yeah, we we would. What we don't want to 1192 01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:59,200 Speaker 1: do is certainly to put all the of that aside 1193 01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:01,840 Speaker 1: and then rebuild. Yeah, like, like you say, a new 1194 01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,360 Speaker 1: digital religion that is based on most of the worst 1195 01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:07,360 Speaker 1: qualities of what came before. Yeah, I mean, I I 1196 01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:11,160 Speaker 1: find most of this book a pretty compelling message, but 1197 01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:14,000 Speaker 1: I do want to emphasize again that it's like, um, 1198 01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:17,320 Speaker 1: it emphasizes a lot of what's negative about the current 1199 01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:21,920 Speaker 1: model of social media. But even with these like bummer companies, 1200 01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:24,800 Speaker 1: he doesn't demonize. He's not saying and we're not saying 1201 01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,800 Speaker 1: that like all the people who work at these companies 1202 01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,560 Speaker 1: are bad people. We're not even saying that like necessarily 1203 01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:32,080 Speaker 1: all the things done by these companies are all their 1204 01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:34,840 Speaker 1: products are bad. I mean, like you know, Facebook and 1205 01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:38,920 Speaker 1: Google and all these companies have. They provide real technologies 1206 01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:41,440 Speaker 1: and real products that do you know, great things for 1207 01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:43,840 Speaker 1: people's lives that make all kinds of things easier. They 1208 01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:47,200 Speaker 1: provide enormous wealth and convenience and stuff like that. So 1209 01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:50,439 Speaker 1: it's not that like everything these companies do is bad. 1210 01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:52,360 Speaker 1: I mean that that's not true by any stretch of 1211 01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:55,640 Speaker 1: the imagination. It's just that there are certain elements about 1212 01:05:55,680 --> 01:05:59,680 Speaker 1: the business model of especially the social media platforms, and 1213 01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,560 Speaker 1: specifically it's the element that its behavior modification for rent 1214 01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:06,840 Speaker 1: that really do need to be reformed. And that's where 1215 01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:08,880 Speaker 1: his recommendation comes in. He says, if you want to 1216 01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:14,400 Speaker 1: give these companies financial incentive to reform, delete your accounts. Right. Yeah, 1217 01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:18,680 Speaker 1: the bummer illness is there in social media, and the 1218 01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:20,880 Speaker 1: only way to get rid of it, to rid the 1219 01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:24,040 Speaker 1: host of that that the infection, is to step away 1220 01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:26,600 Speaker 1: from it, to have them to create this financial incentive 1221 01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:31,520 Speaker 1: for those for these corporations to change, and and ultimately, yeah, 1222 01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:34,880 Speaker 1: he he has this positive view, this optimistic view that 1223 01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:37,000 Speaker 1: it can change that if we were to do this, 1224 01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:39,240 Speaker 1: if we're all to do this, not all at once, 1225 01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:43,360 Speaker 1: but perhaps this gradual awakening uh to the reality you know, 1226 01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:46,560 Speaker 1: we could reach the point where social media can exist 1227 01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:50,840 Speaker 1: in a form that is not not demeaning of our personhood, 1228 01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:54,640 Speaker 1: that is not modifying our behavior to the benefit of 1229 01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, you know, unknown corporations or by state or 1230 01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:01,360 Speaker 1: non state players. Yes. There. So there are a ton 1231 01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:03,520 Speaker 1: of other arguments he gets into in the book that 1232 01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:05,840 Speaker 1: we did not have time to address today. Of course, 1233 01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, we're not going to address everything in the book. 1234 01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:10,040 Speaker 1: If we can get Jared Lanier to come on the 1235 01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:12,440 Speaker 1: show sometime, I'd be interested in talking about some of 1236 01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:16,520 Speaker 1: the other ones, uh, especially, but also I'm interested in 1237 01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:20,480 Speaker 1: hearing from listeners who who disagree, maybe who or you know, 1238 01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:24,240 Speaker 1: agree or disagree, because one thing I recognize is that 1239 01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:28,000 Speaker 1: I think I have an emotional predisposition to bias in 1240 01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:31,560 Speaker 1: favor of these arguments. Uh, simply because I I feel 1241 01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:34,280 Speaker 1: like in my life I have witnessed a lot of 1242 01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:39,000 Speaker 1: negativity growing out of social media. I personally, emotionally don't 1243 01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:43,000 Speaker 1: like platforms like Facebook and Twitter and TRU and so 1244 01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:46,080 Speaker 1: you know, I I've got a predisposition that makes this scene, 1245 01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:48,440 Speaker 1: this all seemed good to me. So I'd be interested 1246 01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:51,360 Speaker 1: in hearing, you know, the arguments presented to the contrary 1247 01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:53,680 Speaker 1: that that would go against my biases that say, no, 1248 01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:57,600 Speaker 1: maybe it's not as bad as he's representing. Right. And likewise, 1249 01:07:57,720 --> 01:08:01,200 Speaker 1: if anyone out there has quit social media, if you 1250 01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:04,840 Speaker 1: have deleted your social media accounts, I'd be interested to 1251 01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:07,160 Speaker 1: hear your take on how that went. You know why? 1252 01:08:07,240 --> 01:08:09,560 Speaker 1: You know, why did you do it? Uh? Did did 1253 01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:13,400 Speaker 1: you accomplish what you hope to accomplish by stepping away? Uh? 1254 01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:15,520 Speaker 1: You know all this is a fair game for discussion. 1255 01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:18,080 Speaker 1: So again, the title of the book is Ten Arguments 1256 01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:21,280 Speaker 1: for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now by Jared Lanier. 1257 01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:24,240 Speaker 1: That's l A in I E. R. It's a as 1258 01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:27,559 Speaker 1: of this recording, it's currently available in hard back and 1259 01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:30,080 Speaker 1: it's coming out in paperback very soon. Yeah. If it's 1260 01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:32,800 Speaker 1: not out by the time this episode publishes, it will 1261 01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:35,920 Speaker 1: be coming out soon. Yeah. So again, highly recommend this 1262 01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:38,519 Speaker 1: read and would love to hear from listeners who read 1263 01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:41,400 Speaker 1: it as well. In the meantime, if you want to 1264 01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:43,760 Speaker 1: follow what we do, head on over to Stuff to 1265 01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:45,439 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. And if you want to 1266 01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:48,000 Speaker 1: support the show, rate and review us wherever you have 1267 01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:49,920 Speaker 1: the power to do so, and make sure you have 1268 01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:54,120 Speaker 1: subscribed huge thanks to our excellent audio producer, Maya Cole. 1269 01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:55,920 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 1270 01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:58,800 Speaker 1: with feedback on today's episode to suggest a topic for 1271 01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:00,719 Speaker 1: the future, to follow up on any of the prompts 1272 01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:04,320 Speaker 1: we just issued, you can email us at contact at 1273 01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:14,240 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 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