WEBVTT - This Is What the Pandemic Did to the U.S. Rail System 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:15.040 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:20.200 I'm Joe Weisenthal and I'm Tracy Halloway. So, Tracy, I mean, 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.000 you know, it's actually been a little while, I guess 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.800 since we've done one of our pure logistics episodes. Earlier 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.080 in the summer, we were doing a lot. We We've 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:31.400 done a lot all year. I just feel like, uh, 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:33.919 you know, we've probably gone at least three or four 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.960 without coming back to what is, without a doubt the story. 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:41.720 When you say more than a little bit or it's 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.440 been a while, I mean, we did do the semiconductor 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.120 episode like the other week, which I kind of file 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:51.159 under the shortages and bottlenecks. Um, yeah, Brella, But I 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.200 guess it's true. It is true. We haven't done a 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:58.120 transport episode in a while, and there are some big 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:02.280 ones that we haven't addressed just yet. And I'm thinking 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:06.800 specifically of palettes and barges, but of course the biggest 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:09.920 transport mode that we have yet to talk about and 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:12.679 the issues taking place there, it has to be rail 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:15.479 and it's come up quite a bit. When we were 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:19.040 talking to um Jeans Siroca that the head of the 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:22.000 part of Los Angeles, for instance, Whenever we've been talking 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:26.200 about gridlock in transport, generally we do tend to touch 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:29.280 on rail and some of the issues there, but we 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.360 haven't talked about it in depth yet, right, so we 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:36.280 kind of have taken this, you know, end to end approach. 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:40.720 We talked about factory issues that originate in Asia. We 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.600 talked about the ship you know, there's the bottomnecks at 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:45.640 the ports. I think latest I saw there's like seventy 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.880 two ships just waiting to be undocked right now at 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:52.440 the Port of Los Angeles. Then the trucks. Talked a 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:54.720 little bit about barges. Although we need to talk a 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.240 lot about talk a lot about more, but we have 0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:59.520 not talked about rail. And so if we're going to 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:04.760 be leadist in our discussion of of you as logistics, 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:10.240 we have to talk about the rail part of the equation. Yes, indeed, 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.000 I'm looking forward to this one. I am too. I'm 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:15.640 very excited, and we have the perfect guest for it. 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:18.960 We're going to be speaking with Ian Jefferies, President and 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:23.760 CEO of the Association of American Railroads. Ian, thank you 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:28.040 so much for coming on odd lots. So look, anyone 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.080 who's picked up the newspaper or you know, read the 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:34.960 news knows about all the disruptions, particularly around ship, particularly 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:39.320 around sports, particularly around trucking, particularly about the lack of 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:43.440 containers specifically, what do you just start by giving us 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:47.600 the very big picture overview and then we'll drill deeper, 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:51.560 but the very big picture overview in how pandemic related 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:55.880 disruptions have affected h the flow of rail. Well, first 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:57.799 of all, thank you Joe and Tracy so much for 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:02.000 having me on this morning. And you've hit on based 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:03.960 on on what you listed, you've hit on a lot 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.359 of key, key issues and key sectors of the supply chain. 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:09.959 So I'm thrilled to be able to add to that conversation. 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:12.920 I think when you look at what we're seeing in 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:16.240 the supply chain right now, which as you know, is 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:24.360 an incredibly sophisticated, integrated complex process getting goods from Asia 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.680 into the US, into the heartland of the the US 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:31.680 UM and then throughout, what we really are looking at 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:36.920 now is something that really began about this time last year, 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:40.080 even you know a little earlier in the summer midsummer, 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:46.760 where once the economies of China and the US started 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:50.240 to for lack of a better term turned back on. 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:54.480 You saw a pretty dramatic influx of goods, and I 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:57.440 think it's a combination of a variety of things. Um, 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:00.080 if your houses or anything like mine, you've got to 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.760 know the the Amazon delivery person really well. We saw 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:08.480 such a massive surge of e commerce as a portion 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:13.560 of our economy, and not only that, given the the 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:18.839 rush to acquire goods, um consumer goods from from the stores, 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.120 the physical stores across the countries as well, combined with 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:25.880 the shutdowns we saw in factories throughout throughout the US, 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.960 throughout Asia, you saw really strong snap back in in 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:34.720 production and demand on the international side. And so really 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.200 about last summer, i'd call it last July last August, 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:42.440 we saw pretty dramatic uptick in international intermodal traffic and 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:46.560 that has really sustained itself and continued through this year 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.000 to present day. And I think we're expecting to see 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.360 it into at least Q one, if not Q two 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:56.640 of next year, based on comments that are our CEOs 0:04:56.640 --> 0:05:00.000 of meeting the public space and so what we're seeing 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.359 is there are certain parts of the supply chain where 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.960 where there are some choke points and where there's there's 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.840 there's one choke point. The supply chain is only as 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.880 strong as as its weakest link, or it's as it's 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:13.960 uh as its most inefficient point, and that that tends 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:17.280 to tends to come up the whole situation, and so 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.040 Rail is navigating that. UM. I can tell you in 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:24.640 the first six months, we moved more intermodal products, which 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:28.400 is that container traffic, which consumer goods, either e commerce 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.080 or brick and mortar store. We move more traffic in 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:34.800 the first six months of than we ever had in 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.600 our history during that same time period. So we are 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.080 moving a colossal amount of traffic, and we're really the 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.760 middle piece of the supply chain, the middle miles we 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:49.000 are navigating. I would call um some challenges on on 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.720 both the port side and and then the offloading side. 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:56.919 UM with our our partners, but taking steps as others 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.640 are to to continue to work through this, to to 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.360 get back and get right sized and get equilibrium and 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:06.080 get this thing running as efficiently as possible. That was 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.240 a great overview, and I want to dig in a 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.880 little bit more into what role Rail actually plays in 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:15.400 the sort of transport and logistics network overall. But before 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:17.360 we do, can you maybe give us a little bit 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:20.680 more color on the contestion issues that you're facing right now. 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.080 Are there some numbers that you could throw out? So, 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.560 for instance, Joe and the intro mentioned more than seventy 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:30.280 ships waiting off the you know, off l a port. 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:34.400 I'm wondering if there are similar statistics for rail and 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:39.200 how those might differ from normal times. Yeah, absolutely so. 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:41.080 So our our primary role when it comes to the 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:44.200 West coast ports is is, you know, containers are loaded 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:48.120 onto to our trains and brought into the middle of 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:51.159 the country, much of them. So think about the key 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.520 gateways up and down the Mississippi River, up and down 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:58.280 the center of our country. Primary be in Chicago. Approximately 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:04.800 of rail freight move through Chicago, but also Memphis, New Orleans, St. Louis, 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:08.240 Kansas City, So those are primary gateways. But let's take 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:12.400 Chicago for example, and what we are seeing is in 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:15.800 a lot of the international intermodal guards. So those are 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:19.160 those are the locations that that freight is offloaded from 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:23.200 the train, put into a parking slot, and picked up 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:26.960 by a truck for that last mile delivery to a 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:30.600 warehouse or to a or to another location. So when 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.320 the train brings into containers, that's referred to as in gating, 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:37.640 and when the containers are picked up, it's referred to 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.160 as outgating. And I can tell you that the in 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:44.640 gates in certain locations are dramatically exceeding the outgates. In 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:47.280 other words, we have many more containers coming in that 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.080 are getting picked up and taken out, and so you 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.920 can understand how that begins to back things up. And 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:56.360 so one of our railroads had over twenty intermodal trains. 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.360 So think about that. That's twenty trains with approximately we'll 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:03.240 call it or take two containers on it. So what 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:09.160 is that for thousand containers sitting outside the Chicago terminal 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.840 waiting to get into the yard to unload, but can't 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.080 do so because the outdates aren't aren't being picked up, 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:21.520 so local trucking isn't able to um able to get 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:23.840 that out. That just goes to show you how quickly 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.280 things can start backing up. I know they've made significant 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:29.240 progress and driving the number of trains waiting down, but 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.160 it's it's sort of akin to the boat's waiting. The 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:33.360 ship's waiting off the coast of the ports of l 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:37.440 A and Long Beach, and that causes conververberating effects because 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:41.960 when you have trains sitting waiting to get into the yard, 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:44.679 those are trains that should be unloading and should be 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:47.160 on their way back to the West coast ports, but 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:51.480 can't because our our partners in the supply chain are 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.960 shipping partners don't have the capacity or ability to to 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:56.920 pick up the containers and get them out of the 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.840 yard to create the space needed to unload. And so 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.360 it's kind of a it's seven operation for the railroads, 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.040 and any part of that that that gums up that 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.719 seven operations starts to have reverberate and consequences back to 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:13.920 the network. Just that stat is extremely useful in striking 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:19.120 how much of that capacity constraint is it? Okay, with 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:20.920 with I don't know what the term is. I mean 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.720 with ships they talk about, Okay, how many births there 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.120 are at the port at any given time. How much 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.800 is it the sort of like physical space to unload 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:36.000 or load a given uh, twenty cars uh? And how 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.680 much versus how much is it uh the labor And 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.680 how much is a labor itself contributing to some of 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:47.240 the constraints and the slowness of these turnaround time? So 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:50.640 I would I would say it's a combination depending on 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:54.959 where you are. There are certain situations where railroads are 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:59.640 highering additional employees, going through the process of highering additional employees, 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.439 but there are variety of other situations where where manpower 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.000 employee numbers are are not the issue in the least. 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:08.960 And what we're seeing again is so so if it's 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:12.520 a labor issue, it might be a shorthaul trucker shortage issue, 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:18.080 or it might be a warehouse worker issue. Um again, 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.240 because if there are breakdowns and those pieces of supply 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.280 chain that directly impacts the ability of a shipp or 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:26.720 to to get their goods, get their boxes out of 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.840 the yard, to create space for additional boxes, and so 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:31.840 I can tell you railroads have taken a number of 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:34.120 steps that are far out of the norm than they 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:39.280 normally would, which is literally creating additional capacity within their yards, 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:41.960 paving over tracks in certain areas to allow for additional 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:46.680 storage for containers, opening up long dormant intermodal facilities that 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:48.720 haven't been used for quite some time to allow for 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:52.439 additional capacity. And so we feel like we're we're taking 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:55.600 numerous steps, and really we just need the system to 0:10:55.720 --> 0:11:00.240 flow um. Again, we're bringing in trains of inter total 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:04.000 equipment seven so seven days a week that x time 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.439 throughout each day they're intermodal trains arriving that need to 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.600 be unloaded. And some of our our partners don't work 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:15.040 in seven operation the last mile service. I think when 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:17.600 you look at the data when our yards, our railroads 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:20.079 look at the data in their yards, the volume of 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.840 pickups aka the outgate and I was talking about drops 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:27.400 pretty dramatically later in the day, and drops pretty dramatically 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:30.120 over the weekend, and then starts to pick back up 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:31.640 in the beginning of the week. And of course the 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.880 challenges that the trains keep coming in during all of 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.480 that time, and so railroads are taking a number of 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.280 operational steps as well to try to alleviate that. Are 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:44.439 offering incentives to our shipping partners to to come get 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:46.559 their goods on the weekend as well, just to keep 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.599 that throughput going and just to keep the spick it on, 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.400 so to speak, so that we can keep bringing things 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.920 in pushing them out into the communities where there where 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:58.760 the demand is so strong right now, So it's a combination. 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.400 So do you maybe go back to the that point 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:06.520 that you briefly raised earlier about where rail actually sits 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:11.559 in the wider supply or transport chain. So my understanding is, 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.640 you know, stuff comes in through the ports, then it 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.839 gets loaded onto rails, and basically if it's heading to 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:20.720 you know, the other side of the country or the interior, 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:22.840 it's going to have to travel through rail, and it's 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:26.400 probably going to have to travel through a limited number 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:30.240 of hubs like Chicago and you know, maybe Kansas or 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:33.920 Memphis or something like that. So I guess my question is, 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.720 you know, where does rail sit in the broader supply chain? 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:41.000 But also are there always going to be choke points 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:45.160 of some sort given that goods have to travel through 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:50.079 a limited number of hubs. So let's talk about So 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.880 right now we're just talking about this, this intermodal traffic, 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:55.199 this container traffic, and I think we need to take 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.959 a step back and look at rail's role in the 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.680 kind of the overarching economy. And it's important to remember 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:06.520 that that rail is moving the goods economy, the tangible economy. 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:10.559 So whether it's industrial products, whether it's agriculture products of 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:15.800 all kinds, whether it's chemicals, whether it's automotive automobiles, rail 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:21.240 news about finished automobiles, not to mention very high percentage 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.160 of a lot of the components to go into automotives 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.760 during the during the manufacturing process. Of course, going back 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.040 to the challenges we're seen in the semi conductor area, 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:34.480 they're impacting that and then intermodal covers. At this point, 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:38.800 probably about half of rail traffic UM. That has changed 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.959 over the years. Coal used to amount for approximately of 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:46.440 all rail traffic. I would say, you know, societal shifts, 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:50.120 market shifts have dramatically reduced that. But what we've what 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:52.760 we've grown in place of that is this explosive growth 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:57.640 in in consumer goods and container traffic. So railroads are 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:00.800 are managing all of those different types of UH of 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.240 products that they're moving through their pipelines at any given time, 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.480 and those different types of products need to be moved 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:10.599 at different levels of pace based on customer demands. So 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.520 there are certain commodities that that can move at a 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:17.600 more measured pace, but your your premium products, or your 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.760 innomodal traffic, your your UPS traffic. UPS is the largest 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.800 customer for the rail industry at large UM. That stuff 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:27.800 needs to move very quickly, and so railroads have designed 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:32.360 their networks to to allow for the staggering of different, 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:36.600 different speed of traffic that's required to meet customers needs. 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:40.200 And so you hit on, you know, the relatively limited 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:44.280 number of major gateways that that rail traffic needs to 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:46.920 flow to, and I would say that's what we're primary 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.920 talking about, that traffic that again comes from the West 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.320 coast and needs to disperse in the middle of the country. 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.960 And so you mentioned Chicago, we talked about Kansas City, Memphis, 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:00.400 New Orleans, St. Louis. Those are the main ones that 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:02.880 come to mind. I can tell you that that our 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:06.840 railroads have built out over the years very efficient systems 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.280 that allow for a very speedy movement of goods from 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:13.320 the West coast into these gateways. And they're designed as 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.080 such because those gateways are the ones that have the 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:21.320 terminal capacity to to sort, shift and rebuild trains as 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.400 needed to hand off to the eastern partners or you know, 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:26.400 we're we're not even talking about the East coast, but 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:29.800 we have a similar situation, uh inverse situation coming from 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.640 the East coast going going western into the heartland as well. 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:35.440 But I can tell you that these networks have been 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:40.000 designed in a very methodical and very intentional way to 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:44.840 allow for a very efficient movement of interline traffic into 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:46.680 the middle of the country where it can then get 0:15:46.760 --> 0:16:08.320 dispersed as needed um to its final destination. So obviously 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.360 we are in the middle of some sort of negotiations 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:13.880 going on in Washington, d C. Although they seem to 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.640 be very muddled right now about that's a kind way 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.680 of putting it, to put it, to put it mildly 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:25.600 about infrastructure and rail and theory. And I'm sure is 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:29.040 you're hoping for is a part of that. It's it's 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:33.200 it's it's interesting timing because we're talking about constraints on 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:36.800 the economy due to supply side disruption, and every form 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:41.600 of transportation of goods is experiencing bottlenecks and so forth. 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.480 What more could be done? You know, obviously, I'm sure 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.800 your industry would like a plenty of money to build 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:53.120 out rail systems, but from a realistic, uh standpoint, what 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:58.080 more could be done in a more functional political system 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.360 to build out rail side capacity in a way that 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.960 would be productive for the nation. So, Joe, I'm really 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:08.800 glad you you brought up the investment side of things, 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:12.120 in the infrastructure side of things, because one one fact 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.800 that a lot of people don't necessarily realize is that 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:18.639 our freight rail system is almost entirely privately owned and 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.800 financed in the US. So what does that mean. That 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.880 means our railroads are investing about twenty five billion dollars 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:28.600 of their own cash back into their networks every year, 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:32.359 which has resulted in and this isn't me talking, this 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.879 is this is others. This is straight up fact. We 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.159 have the freight rail system that's the en via the 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:40.960 rest of the world. It's the most efficient, safest, most 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:44.520 advanced rail system, freight rail system in the in the 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.520 entire world. And so you juxtapose that against um the 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:51.399 other types of infrastructure, other types of surface transportation infrastructure 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:53.880 we have in this country, you know, the the interstate 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:57.280 highway system, which is at this point at least fift 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:02.320 subsidized by by general taxpayer funds. I think we've hit 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:06.000 about a hundred forty billion dollars in general fund transfers 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:09.920 to support that, a system that was historically supported by 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:13.200 by user fees, a lot of gas tax and other fees. 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:15.640 We've gotten away from that. We need to get back 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.159 to that. Users of infrastructure need to pay for that. 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.800 You look at our ports again, largely publicly funded, I 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.560 would argue, I would bet that the folks you've talked 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:28.080 to in the port industry would say dramatically underfunded. Their 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.879 significant investment needed there to increase efficiency, make use of 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.240 technology to allow for a more efficient throughput of goods, 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.399 and so Rail. When we look at infrastructure legislation, we 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:41.600 take a little bit of a different point of view. Yes, 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.000 agree that we need robust public investment into the nation's 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:49.600 public infrastructure because if rail is gonna function, we're seeing 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:51.119 this right now, If rail is gonna function at its 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:54.399 highest level, we need a healthy integrated supply chain, a 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:58.080 healthy integrated transportation network. So that includes sports, that includes 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:01.280 translate facilities, that includes are high ways. Again, we'd love 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:03.359 for our chucking partners to have to pay for the 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:07.840 infrastructure they operate over. But you know that that's probably 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:11.959 a debate for another day. But Rail is looking at 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:17.200 infrastructure legislation more as a vehicle to take advantage of 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:22.880 our environmental performance, take advantage of our safety performance, take 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:27.120 advantage of our inherently efficient operations, and really making sure 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:30.080 that we create a framework, whether it's a legislative framework, 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:33.920 or a regulatory framework that allows rail to one earn 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:36.560 the revenues necessary to invest back into the system to 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.639 meet current demand and future demand, because freight demand is 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.359 only going to grow in this country. But two also 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:46.120 allows us to innovate our operating models, to deploy new 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:49.720 technologies to create an even more efficient system with the 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:53.480 infrastructure we have, while also maximizing safety. And so to 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:55.840 your to your second the second part of your question, 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.520 what can rail do in a We have a hundred 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:02.040 and forty seven thousand miles of rail infrastructure in the country. 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:04.920 I don't think it's any secret that standing up a 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:08.639 massive new freight railroad is probably uh not something you 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.879 should expect anytime soon, given the challenges and getting right 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:15.320 of way, etcetera. But railroads can make the investment within 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:17.959 the right of way to maximize throughputs. So what does 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.560 that mean? That that means adding second, third, in some 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:24.560 instances even fourth lines of of rail on the rights 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:28.840 of way. It means extending sidings to allow for temporary 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.520 parking of trains to allow those premium trains that need 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:33.920 to get through the space they need to get through. 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:37.080 It means investing in our intermodal yards to to deploy 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:41.800 new technologies increase automation that allows for a safer, more 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:46.200 efficient throughput of goods. So between technologies, between maximizing the 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.200 infrastructure we have and expanding within our our rights of way, 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:53.280 you know, we have the ability to move the amount 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.399 of traffic that's demanded. And quite frankly, all of our 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:58.160 railroads are looking to grow the volumes that we're moving 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.080 because it's good for good for the highways, it's good 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.080 for the public, it's good for the environment, and it's 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:06.040 good for business. So you know, that's the focus right now. 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:10.359 So in the interim when um, you know it is 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.240 very crowded on the railways, there's all this congestion. People 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:15.760 are trying to manage it as best as they can. Um, 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:20.320 how do the rail companies actually a portion capacity? So 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:23.440 one thing we learned from our shipping episodes is that like, 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:27.119 it doesn't necessarily come down to whoever is willing to 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:31.240 pay the highest rate. It might come down to connections 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:33.600 or whether or not you're a big customer like a 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:36.040 Walmart or an Ikea or something like that of a 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:40.080 shipping company. And I'm wondering if it's a similar deal 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:44.240 when it comes to rail So you know, I can't 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:48.840 speak for each individual railroads marketing or decision making for 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:51.119 how it determines which traffic is going to move, but 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.320 I think overall the system is designed to to move 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:58.159 the most traffic in the least amount of time, with 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:01.080 an emphasis put on that track fix that is paying 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:05.000 for this premium more just in time type service. Again, 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:08.840 you know, there are their industrial products. You know, gravel 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:11.000 for example, does not normally need to move at the 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:16.560 same pace as a train full of ups packages, and 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:18.960 so the system needs to be designed to meet those 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:22.000 customers needs or they're going to look elsewhere to move 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:24.600 their goods and that's the last thing we want as 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:28.800 our industry. And so again I would just I would 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.520 have to point to each individual railroad and how they 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:35.000 manage that process. But at a at a macro level, 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:38.040 that's that's how things get from point at point B. 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:44.000 So you mentioned the possibility of customers moving elsewhere. Is 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:47.600 that something that you've seen over the past year or two. Um, 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:50.320 you know, given the situation, are there some people who 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:54.040 just don't want to wait for railway capacity to get 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:57.600 freed up and maybe they switched to something like trucking well, 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:01.119 so I think the intermodal freight market by its very nature, 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:04.720 by its very name, it is hyper hyper competitive. You know. 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:07.400 That is that that traffic that can flow on either 0:23:07.480 --> 0:23:09.600 trucks or can flow on trains, and whether it's coming 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:13.679 out of the ports or domestically between points in the US, 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.440 you know, the customer is very real options and it 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:19.520 could be you know, it could be rail to rail competition, 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:21.879 it could be rail to truck competition, it could be 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:24.520 choosing the you know, potentially the port you want to 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:27.920 go into to to use a different type of a 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:31.879 different form of transportation as well. And so absolutely, if 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:34.159 if a railroad isn't providing good service, you know that 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:36.360 business is going to go elsewhere. And when you look 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:39.840 at the fact that rail has grown its intermodal offerings 0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:44.320 to again about fift of overall rail traffic in today's mix, 0:23:44.880 --> 0:23:48.480 that shows you that rail is doing a continuously better 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:54.080 job at providing a product that is appealing to to 0:23:54.280 --> 0:23:57.880 that customer that that has a wide variety of options again, 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:00.919 whether it's another railroad, whether it's any number of trucking 0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:03.679 companies out there, and so railroads have done a good 0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:07.960 job in getting much more predictable in their deliveries, decreasing 0:24:08.000 --> 0:24:11.080 the time it takes to make a delivery, and really 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:15.880 shrinking the distance where rail can be viable. I think 0:24:15.960 --> 0:24:20.200 the general cut off used to be a goods movement 0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:22.720 had to be at a minimum five hundred miles in 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:25.080 order for for rail to to ever be competitive. And 0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:26.960 I can tell you there are many instances around the 0:24:27.000 --> 0:24:30.480 country where due to operational changes, due to increased efficiency, 0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:34.040 rail can compete down south of that fund five mile 0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:37.720 number UM, sometimes significantly down south. And again that's just 0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:41.200 that's just the class one railroads. We have several hundred 0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:44.640 regional and what are known as short line railroads around 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:47.119 the country as well, and on any given they they are, 0:24:47.520 --> 0:24:50.480 they're out there working to to win traffic over as well. 0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:55.160 So the freight mar market is UH is vibrant and hot, 0:24:55.359 --> 0:24:58.960 and freight's gonna go where the price is right and 0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:03.520 where the services. I wanna pivot just a little bit, 0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:06.840 you know. And Tracy and I started UM this series. 0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:11.520 Obviously the context was pandemic related disruptions, and of course 0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:15.479 that is still the overarching context, and basically everyone has 0:25:15.520 --> 0:25:20.240 been affected. Another phenomenon this year that certainly hasn't helped 0:25:21.200 --> 0:25:24.320 has been the rise of extreme weather, and whether it's 0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:27.720 associated with specific climate change or not doesn't change the 0:25:27.840 --> 0:25:31.600 fact that, you know, numerous stories have been written about 0:25:32.119 --> 0:25:37.800 rail lines being affected by whether it's flooding, the fires 0:25:38.200 --> 0:25:43.720 in California and so forth, fires in Canada, lingering effects 0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:48.000 from the hurricanes Hurricane Ida. I'm curious, like how much 0:25:48.119 --> 0:25:51.200 you think, how much of you're thinking about the future 0:25:51.400 --> 0:25:57.200 of the industry is based on anticipation of more extreme 0:25:57.280 --> 0:26:01.480 weather events, and how you're thinking about mitigating against some 0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:05.760 of those effects. Oh. Absolutely, I mean, you're you're spot 0:26:05.840 --> 0:26:07.800 on with with everything you just hit on in the 0:26:08.320 --> 0:26:12.439 impacts it's had on rail operations, whether the Western fires 0:26:12.480 --> 0:26:16.080 specifically in certain parts of California, the Gulf Coast again, 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:18.200 you know, it's it's almost predictable that they're going to 0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:20.480 be extreme weather events every year at this point, and 0:26:21.040 --> 0:26:23.639 in rail you know, we we've got to adjust for that. 0:26:23.800 --> 0:26:25.760 So you can do that a variety of different ways. 0:26:25.840 --> 0:26:29.600 You can do that by making your infrastructure more resilient. 0:26:30.200 --> 0:26:32.239 And so what does that mean. It means in low 0:26:32.359 --> 0:26:36.320 lying areas and the Gulf you're probably increasing the height 0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:38.879 of the rail, increasing the ballast so that you can 0:26:38.960 --> 0:26:43.000 withstand a decent amount of standing water. You know, out 0:26:43.080 --> 0:26:44.639 west with the fires, it's a little bit of a 0:26:44.680 --> 0:26:47.960 trickier situation, but a lot of it is having alternative 0:26:49.359 --> 0:26:52.040 routing plans in place. It's having partnerships in place that 0:26:52.119 --> 0:26:54.960 allow you if you're if your line is damaged via 0:26:55.400 --> 0:26:58.399 via fire, you have interline agreements or interchange agreements with 0:26:58.480 --> 0:27:01.320 other railroads that allow you to temper rarely move your 0:27:01.400 --> 0:27:04.200 goods over their tracks and vice versa. I know, one 0:27:04.240 --> 0:27:08.359 of our biggest railroads out west had a bridge burned 0:27:08.400 --> 0:27:11.720 down on it's one of its main lines. And while 0:27:11.760 --> 0:27:14.760 they were able to miraculously rebuild the bridge and I 0:27:14.840 --> 0:27:17.000 believe three weeks and have it back up and running, 0:27:17.040 --> 0:27:19.719 which is a stunning feed of engineering in and of itself, 0:27:20.080 --> 0:27:22.160 goods had to keep moving during that time. So alternate 0:27:22.320 --> 0:27:25.400 arrangements have to be made. And so I can tell 0:27:25.440 --> 0:27:28.800 you that it is absolutely called it climate change, called 0:27:28.920 --> 0:27:32.919 you know, anticipated increased number of extreme weather events, absolutely 0:27:32.960 --> 0:27:37.600 being built into strategic planning, absolutely being built into how 0:27:37.680 --> 0:27:41.600 we're maintaining our infrastructure, how we're planning our our networks. 0:27:41.840 --> 0:27:43.960 And it's just a reality that we're all going to 0:27:44.040 --> 0:27:47.880 have to contend with. Now, I suppose on the positive side, 0:27:47.960 --> 0:27:52.240 if we're looking to address climate change, rails environmental performance 0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:55.800 far exceeds any other form of service insptation when it 0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:59.760 comes to admissions, uh, when it comes to fuel use, 0:27:59.840 --> 0:28:03.600 it um when it comes to overall environmental impact. And 0:28:03.760 --> 0:28:06.760 so you know, our customers are cognizant of that Rail 0:28:06.800 --> 0:28:09.400 can play a role in helping customers meet their overall 0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:13.560 environmental targets or emissions targets. But Rail, all the Class 0:28:13.680 --> 0:28:17.720 one railroads have all committed to significantly reducing their emissions 0:28:17.760 --> 0:28:21.200 as well over the next several years and are using 0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:25.320 a variety of technologies to decrease fuel use. It's decrease emissions. 0:28:25.600 --> 0:28:29.200 We're exploring the use of battery electric locomotives, use of 0:28:29.280 --> 0:28:33.680 hydrogen locomotives, biofuels, renewable fuels, um all. You know, it's 0:28:33.720 --> 0:28:36.520 kind of an all hands on deck because we're going 0:28:36.560 --> 0:28:38.680 to play a role in helping reduce the countries or 0:28:38.720 --> 0:28:41.720 those globes emissions and helping our customers reduce emissions, which 0:28:41.840 --> 0:28:44.840 you know, to come full circle hopefully, if if society 0:28:44.920 --> 0:28:48.040 can can achieve the overall goals. Maybe we can make 0:28:48.080 --> 0:28:50.720 a make an impact in on the extreme weather side 0:28:50.760 --> 0:28:53.760 as well, but in the meantime, resiliency is absolutely key. 0:29:11.200 --> 0:29:13.880 I have a slightly weird question, but is there any 0:29:14.000 --> 0:29:19.320 way that extreme weather and specifically drought might actually UM 0:29:19.800 --> 0:29:22.720 benefit rail. And the reason I'm asking is because I 0:29:22.760 --> 0:29:27.000 remember reading one story UM that said Valet was transporting 0:29:27.320 --> 0:29:30.760 more iron ore by rail because of lower river levels. 0:29:30.840 --> 0:29:34.640 So I'm wondering if if there are situations where it 0:29:34.840 --> 0:29:38.040 could be a good thing for for the rail business. 0:29:39.720 --> 0:29:45.120 So I will say that rail is generally the most 0:29:45.240 --> 0:29:49.320 resilient form of transportation when it comes to extreme weather events. 0:29:49.680 --> 0:29:53.400 Maybe you know the infrastructure burning down notwithstanding, but you know, 0:29:53.560 --> 0:29:56.320 after a hurricane, for example, rail is usually the first 0:29:56.480 --> 0:30:01.640 form of of infrastructure backup in operation. UM after Hurricane Katrina, 0:30:01.720 --> 0:30:03.720 and a rail for quite some time was the only 0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:07.720 way to get goods into the New Orleans region. And 0:30:07.880 --> 0:30:12.160 so I would say that is all very temporary. Now 0:30:12.520 --> 0:30:15.719 when you're talking about you know, moving more iron because 0:30:15.920 --> 0:30:18.480 water levels have gotten low, we have the ability to 0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:20.720 to get up and running more quickly than most and 0:30:21.240 --> 0:30:23.520 we'll take advantage of that. But you know, in the example, 0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:26.080 you brought up. I could see a situation where we're 0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:29.320 providing better service, maybe we're providing a better rate, and um, 0:30:29.600 --> 0:30:32.400 you end up winning business out of that shirt. A 0:30:32.480 --> 0:30:35.080 lot of people maybe they don't pay attention to how 0:30:35.160 --> 0:30:37.880 the business of rail has done, but it's actually done 0:30:37.920 --> 0:30:40.040 like phenomenally well. And if you already just go on 0:30:40.120 --> 0:30:42.640 the Bloomberg terminal right now and you were to pull 0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:46.440 up a chart of you say Union Pacific and zoom 0:30:46.480 --> 0:30:48.959 it out, it looks like an Internet stock. I mean, 0:30:49.000 --> 0:30:52.480 it's just over the last years or whatever. It's incredible. 0:30:52.480 --> 0:30:54.440 And I think that's the case with a number of 0:30:54.520 --> 0:30:58.440 these for people who don't know what the story is. 0:30:58.920 --> 0:31:01.280 And I would admit when I say people who don't know, 0:31:01.440 --> 0:31:03.840 I include that myself. But I pretend that I don't 0:31:04.160 --> 0:31:06.200 what is this story? Like? Why is it? You know, 0:31:06.400 --> 0:31:09.880 twenty years ago rail is not thought to be like 0:31:10.040 --> 0:31:14.600 this particularly exciting booming business and years later they just 0:31:14.720 --> 0:31:19.040 haded just these like massive, massive industry success stories that 0:31:19.120 --> 0:31:22.680 have made investors a ton of money. So I'll do 0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:25.600 you one better. I want to only go twenty years ago. 0:31:25.640 --> 0:31:29.120 I'll go back forty years even even one. So in 0:31:29.240 --> 0:31:32.840 nineteen eighty what's known as the Staggers Rail Act took 0:31:33.000 --> 0:31:39.000 what was a highly regulated, highly heavy handed government federal 0:31:39.080 --> 0:31:45.920 government interventionist regulatory regime and partially deregulated the rail industry. 0:31:46.160 --> 0:31:49.560 And at the time, at that time, approximately twenty five 0:31:50.320 --> 0:31:56.000 of railroads were interfacing bankruptcy. The infrastructure was in decrepit shape. 0:31:56.160 --> 0:31:59.760 The industry quite frankly, was on the verge of collapse overall, literally. 0:32:00.440 --> 0:32:03.600 And so what what the Staggers Act did. It freed 0:32:03.680 --> 0:32:07.520 up railroads to to operate in markets, to charge market rates, 0:32:07.800 --> 0:32:11.400 to rationalize their networks. In other words, that the government 0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:14.840 used to force railroads to operate networks, whether the partner lines, 0:32:14.920 --> 0:32:18.320 whether there was traffic moving on it or not, whether 0:32:18.400 --> 0:32:20.920 there was any ability to ever earn any sort of 0:32:21.000 --> 0:32:24.560 return on your investment or profit based on that particular line. 0:32:24.600 --> 0:32:28.440 And the Staggers Act bit freed railroads to act as 0:32:28.840 --> 0:32:32.720 as normal companies in markets. And what that did is 0:32:32.960 --> 0:32:37.440 a few different things. One, it allowed them that efficiency 0:32:38.080 --> 0:32:44.920 increased dramatically. Prices actually dropped dramatically. Today when adjusted for inflation, 0:32:45.200 --> 0:32:48.280 rail rates writ large or about forty less than they 0:32:48.320 --> 0:32:52.440 were in nineteen eighty, and revenues increased and so it 0:32:52.600 --> 0:32:57.040 took about twenty years for rail to really hit its stride. 0:32:57.160 --> 0:33:00.440 So when you're when you're using that twenty number, I 0:33:00.480 --> 0:33:03.240 would say, you know, it took about twenty years for 0:33:03.440 --> 0:33:06.400 for rail to to really start to realize the benefits 0:33:06.720 --> 0:33:09.479 of staggers. And in the past twenty years Rail has 0:33:09.560 --> 0:33:13.040 been able to to really spring forward in a very 0:33:13.080 --> 0:33:16.440 positive way. So you know, we're moving colossal amounts of goods, 0:33:17.000 --> 0:33:19.640 we're doing it in a very efficient manner, we're maintaining 0:33:19.640 --> 0:33:24.280 our own infrastructure, and we're charging rates that are dramatically 0:33:24.360 --> 0:33:27.880 less than they were before the regulation. So on rates, 0:33:28.080 --> 0:33:30.600 and this is something that I find to be an 0:33:30.640 --> 0:33:33.520 important thing to learn about with every one of these discussions, 0:33:33.920 --> 0:33:37.560 which is market power. And you know, we talked about trucking, 0:33:37.760 --> 0:33:41.080 and I think I forget the stat exactly, but something 0:33:41.240 --> 0:33:44.400 like you know, in the trucking world, by the time 0:33:44.720 --> 0:33:47.400 you start a podcast and finish the recording, like ten 0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:51.440 tho new trucking companies have been formed in that hour 0:33:51.600 --> 0:33:55.080 or that. That's only a slight exaggeration. And so there 0:33:55.160 --> 0:33:58.280 is not a lot of especially during the busts, there 0:33:58.400 --> 0:33:59.880 is not a lot of pricing power. Then you get 0:33:59.920 --> 0:34:02.560 the massive bankruptcy ways. You know, I'm looking at this 0:34:02.720 --> 0:34:06.360 chart here someone sent to me a company like Norfolk Southern. 0:34:06.680 --> 0:34:12.600 Is the consolidation seven companies event over time became what 0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:16.359 is currently known as Norfolk Southern Union Pacific. It looks 0:34:16.400 --> 0:34:19.840 like it's like thirteen different companies. Over time, various mergers 0:34:19.920 --> 0:34:23.160 became what is now known as Union Pacific. Why has 0:34:23.239 --> 0:34:26.000 it been the case such that over the last forty 0:34:26.120 --> 0:34:32.040 or fifty years, despite this massive consolidation we've you would 0:34:32.080 --> 0:34:36.400 not expect to see more competitive pricing. You would expect 0:34:36.760 --> 0:34:40.160 the handful of big rail players Norfolk Southern, CSX, Union 0:34:40.200 --> 0:34:44.279 Pacific and bing An SF to enjoy incredible pricing power 0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:50.680 because competition is very alive, real and well, um, you 0:34:50.760 --> 0:34:54.040 know you mentioned some of the mergers that created some 0:34:54.160 --> 0:34:56.560 of the bigger railroads today. Well, a lot of that 0:34:56.760 --> 0:35:01.000 is there were too many railroads back you know, several 0:35:01.040 --> 0:35:03.320 decades ago. There were too many for for the economy 0:35:03.400 --> 0:35:06.680 to to support. And so by by the mergers and 0:35:06.719 --> 0:35:10.399 acquisitions that have historically occurred, you've you've allowed rail too. 0:35:11.000 --> 0:35:14.040 You have your you know, your your primary rail lines 0:35:14.600 --> 0:35:18.520 throughout the country again that have been made much more 0:35:18.560 --> 0:35:21.840 efficient infrastructures dramatically improved over the years. But then you 0:35:21.920 --> 0:35:25.680 have this entire economy of regional and short line railroads 0:35:25.760 --> 0:35:28.600 that are called, for lack of a better term, the 0:35:28.640 --> 0:35:32.000 feeder railroads to to the bigger guys. And so you've 0:35:32.680 --> 0:35:37.120 the the economy and the regulatory structure has allowed for 0:35:37.320 --> 0:35:40.120 rail to to rationalize itself, which is inherently you have 0:35:40.920 --> 0:35:44.600 a smaller number of very large carriers, a significantly higher 0:35:44.680 --> 0:35:48.400 number of regional and smaller carriers that all can that 0:35:48.480 --> 0:35:52.520 can all excel at what they do. And so rail 0:35:52.640 --> 0:35:57.880 rail competition is very real, very live and well. Intermodal competition, 0:35:57.920 --> 0:36:00.520 as we've discussed, is even more alive and well. But 0:36:00.680 --> 0:36:03.400 there are other types of competition, whether it's a geocratic 0:36:03.480 --> 0:36:07.360 geographic competition, a company choosing to to cite a facility 0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:10.760 one place over the other, product competition. No better example 0:36:10.800 --> 0:36:15.319 of product competition than natural gas almost entirely replacing coal 0:36:15.360 --> 0:36:18.000 as a fuel source or not that's an overstatement, but 0:36:18.239 --> 0:36:21.400 dramatically eating into two coal share being a fuel source. 0:36:21.760 --> 0:36:24.600 And so all of those issues have allowed for the 0:36:24.680 --> 0:36:27.960 market to maintain itself in a very healthy way, and 0:36:28.360 --> 0:36:31.000 on top of that, as a backstop we have we 0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:34.560 have an economic regulator, the Surface Transportation Board, which is 0:36:34.880 --> 0:36:38.920 a backstop for shippers who feel that they may not 0:36:39.080 --> 0:36:41.800 be being charged reasonable rates and they can appeal to 0:36:41.840 --> 0:36:44.480 the Surface Transportation Board, who's an adjudicator there. So you 0:36:44.560 --> 0:36:47.800 do have that regulatory backstop that is a an outlet 0:36:47.960 --> 0:36:51.719 for for shippers that do have concerns about about the 0:36:51.840 --> 0:36:55.000 rates are being charged. So overall, that's created a very 0:36:55.080 --> 0:36:57.799 healthy ecosystem. And i'll just point out your your your 0:36:58.000 --> 0:37:00.920 comment about you know, the number of trucking companies going 0:37:00.960 --> 0:37:02.919 in and out of business at any other any time. 0:37:03.239 --> 0:37:05.080 You know, one thing I'm really proud of over the 0:37:05.120 --> 0:37:09.240 pandemic is that because of the healthy capitalization of our companies, 0:37:09.640 --> 0:37:11.360 we were fortunate that we did not have to go 0:37:11.480 --> 0:37:13.560 to Capitol Hill to ask for any sort of bailout. 0:37:14.000 --> 0:37:16.920 Are our members wrote it out on their own. And uh, 0:37:17.400 --> 0:37:20.400 you know, our traffic, we didn't have the drop in 0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:23.279 traffic that our our airline friends did, for example, but 0:37:23.520 --> 0:37:25.839 we still about a thirty percent drop in traffic at 0:37:25.880 --> 0:37:30.520 the at the trough um during the pandemic. And it 0:37:30.719 --> 0:37:33.680 is that that history and that that ecosystem that we've 0:37:33.719 --> 0:37:36.120 discussed that allowed rail to to ride it out with 0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:40.840 without getting that that financial aid from the government. So 0:37:41.000 --> 0:37:43.560 I want to go back to where we started the 0:37:43.640 --> 0:37:48.480 conversation with the congestion issues. What's your sense of how 0:37:48.640 --> 0:37:51.920 long this might actually go on for and what's it 0:37:52.040 --> 0:37:56.960 going to take to get an improvement. Based on comments 0:37:57.120 --> 0:37:59.840 that some of our executives have made, and certainly folks 0:37:59.880 --> 0:38:02.560 in other parts of the supply chain, I think most 0:38:02.800 --> 0:38:06.440 folks think that these volumes or some of these constraints 0:38:06.600 --> 0:38:09.759 will last into the new year, potentially through Q one, 0:38:10.040 --> 0:38:12.560 if not into Q two. And that's again just based 0:38:12.600 --> 0:38:14.840 on public comments i've seen. How are we going to 0:38:14.920 --> 0:38:16.320 get out of this. We're going to get out of 0:38:16.360 --> 0:38:20.080 it by every part of the supply chain operating at 0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:25.600 a high level of efficiency and a high level of optimization. 0:38:25.719 --> 0:38:30.000 And so again I talked about Rails seven way of 0:38:30.080 --> 0:38:33.520 doing business. Um, the ports don't operate like that now. 0:38:33.600 --> 0:38:36.560 I did see news recently that some of the West 0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:39.040 Coast ports are going to be expanding hours m for 0:38:39.280 --> 0:38:43.000 for longshoreman shifts, are gonna be expanding hours for truck pickup, 0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:45.000 which is a good sign. It's a good step forward, 0:38:45.200 --> 0:38:47.600 and we'll we'll see what sort of impact that has 0:38:48.040 --> 0:38:50.239 on the on the other side of the supply chain. 0:38:50.360 --> 0:38:52.920 This this last mile delivery. As we talked about the 0:38:52.960 --> 0:38:55.560 shippers getting their goods out of the intermodal yards to 0:38:55.640 --> 0:38:58.400 allow for for throughput to continue, you know that that 0:38:58.520 --> 0:39:00.560 might be a much trickier issue because as it's a 0:39:00.640 --> 0:39:04.640 very localized challenge as far as drage trucker availability, as 0:39:04.680 --> 0:39:08.600 far as warehouse capacity warehouse worker. You go out to 0:39:08.760 --> 0:39:13.080 Chicago Land right now, the millions of square feet of warehouses, 0:39:13.160 --> 0:39:15.479 practically every one of them has a four higher sign. 0:39:15.920 --> 0:39:18.320 You go to some of those warehouses which are completely 0:39:18.400 --> 0:39:22.959 full and they're storing containers on chassiss in their parking lots. 0:39:23.040 --> 0:39:25.160 So what what's the problem with that, Well, that's taking 0:39:25.200 --> 0:39:27.440 up a chassis that could be brought back to the 0:39:27.480 --> 0:39:30.680 innermodal yard, picking up another container and getting it out 0:39:30.719 --> 0:39:33.279 of the yard. So until we can work through some 0:39:33.400 --> 0:39:37.439 of these issues and smaller parts of the supply chain, 0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:39.360 I think, you know, it's going to be a challenge 0:39:39.440 --> 0:39:43.040 for us to hit max capacity and max efficiency, and 0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:45.400 it's something we need to do because you know, on 0:39:45.480 --> 0:39:49.120 the bright side, the economy, the consumer continues to seem 0:39:49.160 --> 0:39:52.360 to have cash to spend, and you know, hopefully we 0:39:52.440 --> 0:39:54.400 can keep this strong demand going for a while. We 0:39:54.480 --> 0:39:55.960 just need to be able to support it as a 0:39:56.400 --> 0:40:00.160 as an overall supply chain and as an economy. Can 0:40:00.200 --> 0:40:03.480 you talk a little bit about hiring right now at 0:40:03.760 --> 0:40:06.279 at the rail companies? I mean, every industry seems to 0:40:06.360 --> 0:40:10.560 be having trouble hiring. Rail jobs I think are considered 0:40:10.600 --> 0:40:14.560 to be pretty good jobs. Union jobs. They seem to 0:40:14.640 --> 0:40:18.719 be less physically taxing, less stressful on families than say, 0:40:18.760 --> 0:40:22.640 truck truck driving jobs, which sounds extremely difficult from a 0:40:22.719 --> 0:40:26.040 lifestyle perspective. Can you talk about a bit about where 0:40:26.080 --> 0:40:31.560 the industry is in terms of its staff and goals? Sure? So, 0:40:32.000 --> 0:40:34.040 one you you hit on a few key points. We 0:40:34.160 --> 0:40:38.440 are almost an entirely collectively bargained industry and have very 0:40:38.520 --> 0:40:42.080 productive work in relationships with our unions. Average wages and 0:40:42.160 --> 0:40:48.719 compensation for a rail worker or roughly one dollars, So 0:40:48.840 --> 0:40:51.000 these are these are very good paying jobs in the 0:40:51.160 --> 0:40:55.160 in the manufacturing slash industrial sector specifically. Um that's why 0:40:55.239 --> 0:40:58.319 you have more multi generations working in rail. There are 0:40:58.440 --> 0:41:01.680 areas where railroads are looking to hire, and there are 0:41:01.680 --> 0:41:04.960 areas where you know where staffing levels are or where 0:41:05.000 --> 0:41:08.520 we want them to be. And yeah, I mean you 0:41:08.640 --> 0:41:10.560 hit the nail on the head that I think every 0:41:10.640 --> 0:41:13.000 industry is trying to bring people on board right now, 0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:16.000 and and railroading, Look, it's a challenging job. It's a 0:41:16.560 --> 0:41:20.640 seven operation, it's a hundred forty forty seven thousand mile 0:41:20.760 --> 0:41:23.719 outdoor factory floor. Um, so it takes a certain type 0:41:23.760 --> 0:41:26.640 of person who has that interest. But I think on 0:41:26.719 --> 0:41:29.080 the bright side, we've seen once people get into the industry, 0:41:29.160 --> 0:41:31.800 they stay in the industry because it is it's a 0:41:32.000 --> 0:41:36.000 it's a highly compensating industry. You see what you're doing, 0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:39.600 it's very tangible. You're literally moving the economy. And so 0:41:39.840 --> 0:41:42.600 while there may be some temporary challenges and pockets around 0:41:42.640 --> 0:41:45.920 the country, you know we'll work through that. And railroads 0:41:45.960 --> 0:41:49.040 and railroading always has been and always will be a 0:41:49.120 --> 0:41:52.479 really good place to work in a place where somebody 0:41:52.520 --> 0:41:54.480 can earn a living and support their family. And so 0:41:54.840 --> 0:41:56.839 that attraction at the end of the day is going 0:41:56.880 --> 0:41:58.960 to be what keeps us having the high quality people 0:41:59.040 --> 0:42:01.719 we have out on the railroad. You know, you're thinking 0:42:01.719 --> 0:42:05.680 about disruption, and there are people who fantasize and more 0:42:05.760 --> 0:42:09.040 than just fantasized are actively working on the idea of 0:42:09.160 --> 0:42:12.399 one day fleets of self driving trucks, and of course 0:42:12.719 --> 0:42:16.160 self driving trucks would be more efficient than normal trucks 0:42:16.360 --> 0:42:20.960 and presumably could have a lot of competitiveness with rail itself. 0:42:21.560 --> 0:42:25.680 What's your thoughts sort of like out there technologies twenty 0:42:26.000 --> 0:42:29.080 that I don't know, maybe ten twenty years from now? Uh, 0:42:29.200 --> 0:42:31.400 do you keep tabs on these? Do you worry about them? 0:42:31.680 --> 0:42:34.640 Could that be something that in the medium to long 0:42:34.760 --> 0:42:39.440 term of the industry is a becomes a meaningful threat. Oh, 0:42:39.520 --> 0:42:42.640 it's absolutely competitive issue. I think you know, they're almost 0:42:42.680 --> 0:42:46.080 as many autonomous trucking companies that start up every every 0:42:46.160 --> 0:42:49.480 day as other trucking companies. But look that that is 0:42:49.520 --> 0:42:53.160 a huge focus. Um, you're seeing progress in the trucking industry. 0:42:53.200 --> 0:42:55.840 It's not going to happen tomorrow, but it is. It 0:42:56.000 --> 0:42:59.440 is something that's mid term, I would say, and railroad's 0:42:59.440 --> 0:43:01.319 got to compete with that. Now, when you think about 0:43:01.360 --> 0:43:04.680 autonomous technology, railroads operate on a fixed guideway and a 0:43:04.800 --> 0:43:07.960 largely closed network. You know, a truck on the highways 0:43:08.000 --> 0:43:11.879 interacting with motorists at every direction. A railroad other than 0:43:12.200 --> 0:43:15.560 you know, going across UH at Great Crossings is really 0:43:15.640 --> 0:43:18.799 not interacting with the public, and so to US, rail 0:43:18.960 --> 0:43:23.160 is a very natural place for automated technologies, and we 0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:27.400 just at the end of last year recently completed a 0:43:27.560 --> 0:43:31.240 nationwide build out of a technology called positive train Control, 0:43:31.760 --> 0:43:36.839 which really is an automated system that that will override 0:43:37.040 --> 0:43:40.839 the the engineer um if he or she breaks work rules, 0:43:40.880 --> 0:43:43.480 that will automatically stop the train for for overspeed or 0:43:43.480 --> 0:43:47.000 incursion into to work areas. Things along those lines. We've 0:43:47.120 --> 0:43:51.120 also been deploying technology that acts as almost a cruise 0:43:51.200 --> 0:43:55.160 control or fuel management system on the locomotive as well, 0:43:55.320 --> 0:43:59.320 so it's maximizing the fuel efficiency throughout the trip. And 0:43:59.480 --> 0:44:03.359 so you pair that with the number of other either 0:44:03.719 --> 0:44:08.040 on train or on track technologies that Rail has deployed 0:44:08.320 --> 0:44:12.279 or is deploying, and we're at a position where you know, 0:44:12.880 --> 0:44:16.360 the train is moving in a highly automated state already, 0:44:17.000 --> 0:44:20.400 and so we're fully prepared to engage in that battle. 0:44:20.719 --> 0:44:23.600 The important thing for US is that we need the 0:44:23.680 --> 0:44:26.759 federal government, whether it's the legislature or whether it's the 0:44:26.840 --> 0:44:31.520 Department of Transportation, to allow trucking and rail to operate 0:44:31.600 --> 0:44:37.200 on equal footing. When it comes to technology deployment, automated technologies, etcetera. 0:44:37.600 --> 0:44:39.919 And you can imagine, you know, we have some folks 0:44:39.960 --> 0:44:42.239 who have a vested interest in making sure that the 0:44:42.320 --> 0:44:45.080 number of employees on a on a train is held 0:44:45.320 --> 0:44:49.440 constant regardless of the technological advancements. And we think there 0:44:49.480 --> 0:44:52.520 needs to be some flexibility there because technology is only 0:44:52.560 --> 0:44:55.400 moving forward, not only in the rail and trucking industry, 0:44:55.400 --> 0:44:59.560 in every industry around the economy, and we need regulations 0:44:59.600 --> 0:45:01.680 and rule is that allow for that to happen, because 0:45:01.880 --> 0:45:04.600 not only are their business benefits there dramatic safety benefits 0:45:04.640 --> 0:45:06.640 as well, and that should be the focus of everybody. 0:45:08.640 --> 0:45:11.040 Ian Jefferies, thank you so much for coming on. I 0:45:11.160 --> 0:45:13.759 learned a ton about the real industry from you and 0:45:14.000 --> 0:45:17.160 really appreciate you coming on outline. Thank you for having me. 0:45:17.239 --> 0:45:21.560 I really enjoyed it. Thanks you sure, Yeah, that was fun. 0:45:21.680 --> 0:45:42.200 Thanks you so. Tracy, you asked, well, you know what 0:45:42.400 --> 0:45:45.920 was probably like the most important question, which is like, okay, 0:45:46.000 --> 0:45:49.360 when is this all going to ease? And you know 0:45:49.440 --> 0:45:52.680 we've been asking, we've been asking some version of that 0:45:52.840 --> 0:45:56.040 question out for like six months. I would say, if 0:45:56.080 --> 0:45:59.759 not longer, Yeah, I feel like everyone is sort of 0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:04.440 settling on this after the lunar New Year kind of idea, 0:46:04.640 --> 0:46:07.400 like that seems to be the consensus, like after early 0:46:07.760 --> 0:46:11.239 next year, hopefully things will start to ease. So I 0:46:11.280 --> 0:46:13.360 guess we should like mark that in our diaries that 0:46:13.520 --> 0:46:16.520 if if things don't seem to be improving shortly after 0:46:17.280 --> 0:46:20.800 early February, then uh, we may have these problems for 0:46:20.840 --> 0:46:25.160 a long while. Yeah, let's mark that down as as 0:46:25.200 --> 0:46:26.920 a point where we could hope. But on the other hand, 0:46:27.040 --> 0:46:29.759 like by and large, and every once in a while, 0:46:29.760 --> 0:46:32.400 I was like, there have been these tentative signs of easing, 0:46:32.480 --> 0:46:34.040 like there will be like a week where like the 0:46:34.160 --> 0:46:37.120 prices of shipping rates go down or the number of 0:46:37.160 --> 0:46:39.840 ships waiting in the l A Harbor go down, But 0:46:40.000 --> 0:46:42.759 by and large, things keep getting worse. And it's just 0:46:42.840 --> 0:46:45.960 so clear that like all of these different industries which 0:46:46.040 --> 0:46:49.960 intersect are compounding and lineately. Ian talked about sort of 0:46:50.040 --> 0:46:54.520 like the wait times that exist for the Royal Yards 0:46:54.719 --> 0:46:57.279 in Chicago, and that sounded so much like some of 0:46:57.320 --> 0:46:59.680 the things that Jeans Tarrocco was saying about some of 0:46:59.800 --> 0:47:05.200 their issues with getting the actual car containers back to 0:47:05.800 --> 0:47:09.040 ships in l A I just don't feel like I 0:47:09.120 --> 0:47:11.799 do think things will ease at some point, but I've 0:47:11.880 --> 0:47:14.400 like becoming more pessimistic. I guess I would say that 0:47:14.480 --> 0:47:17.040 there's like any sort of like natural mechanism for it 0:47:17.160 --> 0:47:21.879 to ease, because it's also like inter interlocked. Yeah, I mean, 0:47:22.520 --> 0:47:25.200 well Ian touched on this as well. You get this 0:47:25.280 --> 0:47:28.839 sort of cascade effect, so you know, even talking about 0:47:28.840 --> 0:47:31.239 like one problem in one rail system is going to 0:47:31.440 --> 0:47:33.760 end up or in one part of the railway system 0:47:33.880 --> 0:47:36.040 is going to end up affecting all of it, but 0:47:36.200 --> 0:47:39.680 then a problem on the rail system itself is going 0:47:39.760 --> 0:47:43.120 to end up affecting what's going on at the ports 0:47:43.480 --> 0:47:47.200 or the barges um like Jeans spoke about earlier this summer, 0:47:47.960 --> 0:47:53.400 there's something also interesting about rails, and of course in 0:47:53.719 --> 0:47:58.560 is biased, but there's something interesting about rail as an 0:47:58.600 --> 0:48:00.880 industry that sort of seems to work very well from 0:48:00.920 --> 0:48:04.399 a sort of like public goods perspective, Like, okay, rail 0:48:04.480 --> 0:48:07.120 shareholders have done very well. We know that you look 0:48:07.160 --> 0:48:11.040 at the stocks. Rail employees seem to be doing well. 0:48:11.280 --> 0:48:14.319 It's a heavily unionized industry with a high level of pay. 0:48:15.320 --> 0:48:18.920 Rail customers seem to be doing well because despite the 0:48:19.200 --> 0:48:23.040 consolidation in the industry from dozens of different rail lines 0:48:23.120 --> 0:48:27.520 to really just four big national rail lines. According to Ian, 0:48:27.800 --> 0:48:30.799 you know, pricing power remains competitive. I feel like there're 0:48:30.880 --> 0:48:33.320 like must be some some lesson in there from like 0:48:33.360 --> 0:48:37.480 a regulatory perspective about how you can have an industry 0:48:37.640 --> 0:48:39.920 that I don't know, like it kind of seems like 0:48:40.360 --> 0:48:44.799 the various stakeholders of this customers, employees, and shareholders all 0:48:44.880 --> 0:48:46.479 seem to be doing well, and I'm trying to figure 0:48:46.480 --> 0:48:49.399 out what the catches. I'm sure there is one. I'm 0:48:49.440 --> 0:48:53.080 trying to compare and contrast the U S rail system 0:48:53.320 --> 0:48:57.439 with like the rail system in the UK, which maybe 0:48:57.480 --> 0:49:00.520 we should do a UK rail system episode at some point. 0:49:00.520 --> 0:49:02.600 Do you know I used to cover rail for Bloomberg 0:49:03.080 --> 0:49:06.080 in uh in London? I probably I think no, I 0:49:06.360 --> 0:49:10.520 thought I only knew you covered airlines. Yeah, I covered 0:49:10.520 --> 0:49:16.680 all transport. I did airlines, airports, cars and rail. But anyway, um, 0:49:16.800 --> 0:49:19.400 maybe we should do maybe we should branch out from 0:49:19.440 --> 0:49:22.879 our transport series and start doing transport around the world, 0:49:23.040 --> 0:49:26.080 not just different modes of transport, but you know rail 0:49:26.320 --> 0:49:30.120 in the US versus rail in the UK. Actually, you know, 0:49:30.239 --> 0:49:36.520 we really need to do soon is a European power episode. Yeah, 0:49:36.640 --> 0:49:38.479 let's do it. That's a good one. It's serious because 0:49:38.520 --> 0:49:40.279 it's like I keep reading about all this, like if 0:49:40.320 --> 0:49:42.960 the wind isn't blowing a natural gas prices, so let's 0:49:42.960 --> 0:49:46.480 get that on the agenda too. Yeah, let's do it. Okay, Um, 0:49:46.640 --> 0:49:49.440 shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there? All right? 0:49:49.880 --> 0:49:52.800 This has been another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast. 0:49:52.920 --> 0:49:55.560 I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at 0:49:55.600 --> 0:49:58.640 Tracy Alloway. And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me 0:49:58.880 --> 0:50:02.399 on Twitter at the Stalwart. Follow our producer on Twitter, 0:50:02.520 --> 0:50:06.440 Laura Carlson. She's at Laura M. Carlson. Followed the Bloomberg 0:50:06.480 --> 0:50:10.520 head of podcast, Francesca Levi at Francesca Today, and check 0:50:10.560 --> 0:50:13.600 out all of our podcast at Bloomberg under the handle 0:50:14.000 --> 0:50:15.840 at podcasts. Thanks for listening.