1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,440 Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by square Space. Start 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: building your website today at square space dot com. Ter 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: offer code stuff at checkout to get ten percent off 4 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: square Space. Set your website apart. Hey, new shows coming 5 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: your way, live shows that is. Yeah, we're going back 6 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: to d C and Boston, that's right this fall October Thursday. 7 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: We're gonna be at the Wilbur Theater in Boston, where 8 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: we've performed before. And that's why we're going back because 9 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: Boston was like one of the best shows off the 10 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: chain I think is what they called. It was very 11 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: much off the chain. And uh, we're also going back 12 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: to Washington, d C. On Saturday, October twenty nine as 13 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: part of the Benson Ball Comedy Festival. Yeah, and we're 14 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: gonna be at the Lincoln Theater again. Yeah. That was 15 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: off the chain as what boy. That was a great show. 16 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 1: So big ups to you Boston and d C. That's 17 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: why we're coming back. So tickets go on sale tomorrow Friday, 18 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: and um you can find out the information at our 19 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: square Space Live show home on the web s y 20 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: s K live dot com. And if I happen to 21 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: not have the links up for that yet, just go 22 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: to the Wilbur Theater website or go to the Benson 23 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: Ball or Lincoln Theater websites and get your tickets because 24 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: these are gonna be reserved seating. So if you want 25 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: to get up close and smell us, then you gotta 26 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: be Johnny on the spot. You don't want to do that. 27 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: So we look forward to seeing you guys. Uh this 28 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: wall Yep, welcome to you Stuff you should know from 29 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: house stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 30 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W Chuck Bryant, Jerry's 31 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: over there. So this is Stuff you should Unsolved Mysteries Edition, Yeah. Really, 32 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: are you cool with this? No? I'm leaving. Yeah. I 33 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: think it's great. Man. I love me a good unsolved mystery. Yeah, 34 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: and this is super sad. So it's not like I 35 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: love it and I think it's hysterical. I just I 36 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: just like unsolved mystery. What's a what's an hysterical unsolved mystery? Um? Like, 37 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: I got pants in the second grade and I don't 38 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: know who did it. That's an hysterical unsolved mystery. I 39 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: was just in line pants around the ankles turned around 40 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: and like everyone's like did you just go with it 41 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: and you're like, check it out, check me out of 42 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: in second crate. Yep, God for that never happened. I 43 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: made it up. Oh really yeah, it's called improv, buddy. 44 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: It's a crowd. So end scene and scene and seen. 45 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: Have we are established which one it is? Yeah? A 46 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: few times and nope it is Chuck. We are talking 47 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: about a family called the Solders. Um, not the Soldiers right, 48 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: not the welding technique. No, the Solders. They are a 49 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: family out of Fayetteville, West Virginia, UH of Italian extraction, 50 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: as we'll see, Yes, and um very much so. Like 51 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: you said, this is an unsolved mystery. They their family 52 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: just going along totally normally has turned into one of 53 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: the stranger unsolved mysteries in American history. Yeah, and certainly 54 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: in West Virginia history. Definitely. And I should say I 55 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: texted our friend Justin McElroy of the McElroy triplets. Well, 56 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: they're not triplets, they're there. They're brothers of my brother, 57 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: my brother and me podcast because they are from West Virginia. 58 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: And as you'll see here there's a very famous billboard 59 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about about this case and 60 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: I was like, hey, dude, do you ever do you 61 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: remember where you know seeing this thing? How far are 62 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: you from Fayettville. He said, just a couple of hours, 63 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: he said, but I've never heard of that. And I 64 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: was like, really, this seems like the kind of cautionary 65 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: tale that would be whispered about all over West Virginia. 66 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: I can see that. But he said he never heard 67 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: of it. And then he looked it up and said 68 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: oh wow. And I said, I that your dad knows 69 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: about it, and then he said he didn't. He didn't respond. 70 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: You didn't text him back? Answer me, No, that's right. 71 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: I am Facebook friends with his dad, though, should have 72 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: says yeah, ask him, Yeah, go go to the source. 73 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: That's right. So well, let's go back to the beginning. 74 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: Chuck back to that's right. That's when Georgeiros who had 75 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: become George sodder I was born in Sardinia and came 76 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: to the US and nineteen o eight as a young 77 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: lad of thirteen years old. Yeah, and he was a 78 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: go getter, he really was. So his He had an 79 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,679 Speaker 1: older brother who traveled with him from Sardinia to New York. Um, 80 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: I guess he was like, I don't want to do this, 81 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: and right when they made it through Ellis Island, he 82 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: turned right back around and went back to Italy. Yeah, 83 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: he's I don't know, man, Go get a cup of 84 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: coffee and think it over. What I say, if you 85 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: made that ship's voyage, just mull it over for a 86 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: day or two. Yeah, because what if, like you're half 87 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: way back, you're like, actually I should have stayed. Yeah, 88 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: you might meet a pretty lady from Brooklyn. You see 89 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: that movie bok No great? Really? Yeah? Yeah, okay, it 90 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: sound surprised. I was a little surprised. Yeah. It was 91 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,679 Speaker 1: nominated for many awards. That doesn't always mean it usually 92 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: means it's pretty good. No, it's Pence Brooklyn, highly recommended 93 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: about young Italian man who falls in love with an 94 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: Irish immigrant. Oh well, this has nothing to do with 95 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: this thing. No, not at all, because this man falls 96 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: in love with an Italian immigrant. That's right, right? So, um, George, 97 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 1: like you said, he was a bit of a go getter. 98 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: He's thirteen, he's on his own, literally, without any any 99 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: other family in America. It's kind of mind blowing. But 100 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: then you think back to there there, they didn't really 101 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: understand what childhood was at that point. So he's probably 102 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: like of working age and have been for years. But 103 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: it seems really weird to us now. He might have 104 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: been retiring, right. He was smoking cigars already, so he, 105 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: like I said, was a go getter. He started working 106 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: at on the Pennsylvania Railroad and then moved to West 107 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: Virginia to Smithers Smithers, West Virginia and worked as a 108 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: truck driver and then said, you know what, this is America. 109 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: Darn it. I didn't come here to drive a truck 110 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: for someone. I'm gonna own my own trucking business. And 111 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: the statue of Liberty went up, nice going king. So 112 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: he started his own trucking business. Um, and he's in 113 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: West Virginia. So in short order he starts hauling cole yeah, 114 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: coal and dirt. And it wasn't like the hugest business. 115 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: I think he did okay for himself. He did it 116 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 1: okay for himself, like solidly middle class. Yeah, he didn't 117 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: become like wealthy or anything. And as a matter of fact, 118 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: later on um a local local government official would say 119 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: that the Sauders were, um one of the best middle 120 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: class families in Fayetteville, and they had a small Italian 121 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: population in Fayetteville, which I think is why he ended 122 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: up there in his community. Yeah, and he moved there 123 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: with his wife Jenny, right, Yeah, Jenny Cipriani who he 124 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: met UM. She came over from Italy when she was three. 125 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: He met her historic called the music box and they 126 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,559 Speaker 1: got married. And like Italian families do, they had ten kids. 127 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: Ten kids in twenty years. That's a lot of kids, 128 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: pumping them out with great regularity. And like you said, 129 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: when they moved to Fayettville, the reason they moved to 130 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: Fatville had no idea that West Virginia even had Italian 131 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: people in it, let alone strong Italian communities. But they 132 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: moved to Fayettville and they were part of the Italian community, 133 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: and George was well known. Again, they were a respected 134 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: middle class family there. He did pretty good for himself. 135 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: UM and he was also well known for his opinions 136 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: and everything, including politics and UM. During the forties, the 137 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: United States was at war with Italy and not all 138 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: of the Italian Americans were UM feeling it. On the 139 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: American side, there were a lot of disagreements over Mussolini 140 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: and the government that he was creating. UM. Among Italian Americans, 141 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: including in Fayetteville, West Virginia, and George in particular, hated 142 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: Mussolini and very frequently spoke out about him and would 143 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: get in arguments with some of the locals who who 144 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: felt differently about Mussolini. And uh, I guess there were 145 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: some hard feelings here there, but he doesn't seem to 146 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: have taken them seriously very much. No, And we mentioned that, Um, 147 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: if it sounds like we're setting something up for later, 148 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: we indeed are, so just tuck that little fact away. Um, 149 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: and then can we fast forward in time? Yeah? Too? 150 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: Uh Christmas Eve? Christmas Eve? Right, so, um, here's what happens. 151 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: It's Christmas Eve. Um. As his tradition, in some households, 152 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: you can open up a few gifts on Christmas Eve. Yeah, 153 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: so this is what happened. They opened up some presents 154 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: comes time for Betty by and five of the children, 155 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: Maurice fourteen, Martha twelve, Louis or Louie ten, Genie or 156 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: Jenny as that was a little confusing because that's the 157 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: mom's name. Eight years old. And Betty said, can we 158 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: please stay up late and play with these new toys? Yeah, 159 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: they're older, sister Marian had. She worked at a five 160 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: and diameond Town two miles down the road, and she 161 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: had surprised her younger brothers and sisters with some toys 162 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: that they had not been expecting. That's right, and they 163 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: were very happy. So they asked mom if they could 164 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: stay up. Yeah, and the older, the elder, Jenny, said yeah, 165 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: I guess you can stay up. Turn out the lights, 166 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: locked the doors before you go to bed. I'm going 167 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: to hit the rack with your dad. And are two 168 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: year old daughter Sylvia, twenty three year old John and 169 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: sixteen year old George Jr. Were I guess they were 170 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: just ready for bed too. And then if you're thinking 171 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: there's one missing child, he is away in the military, 172 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: the eldest. Yeah, fighting either Mussolini or Hitler or to Joe, 173 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: one of those guys. So he's away. Uh. And I 174 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: could not, for the life of me find that guy's name. So, Um, 175 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: the mom goes to bed, Jenny goes to bed, and Uh. 176 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 1: The dad, George and his two next oldest sons who 177 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: had been working with him that day, they'd all gone 178 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: to bed about ten. Um, what time did the mom 179 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: go to bed? At eleven? Something like that? Yeah, but 180 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: she leaves those five youngest children, Um and Marian, they're 181 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: older sister who I think was seventeen at the time, 182 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: downstairs when she goes to bed Um. And then at 183 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: about twelve thirty on Christmas Morne, because remember that was 184 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: Christmas Eve, about twelve thirty at night, the phone rings, 185 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: and um, this is not an era where and this 186 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: kind of to me goes to show these people were 187 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: doing all right. They had a phone in in West Virginia. 188 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: They may have been the only people in West Virginia 189 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: with the phone in nineteen I'm just saying, I don't 190 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: think everybody had a phone in West Virginia, n so 191 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: they certainly didn't have one at their bedside. So Jenny, 192 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: the mom has to get up to answer the phone, 193 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 1: and on the other line she hears a woman asking 194 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: for somebody she didn't know or recognized, and in the 195 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: background there's obviously a party going on. There's laughter, there's 196 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: clinking of glasses, and uh, Jenny says, I don't know 197 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: who you're talking about. You have the wrong number, and 198 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: the woman laughs weirdly and hangs up. Yeah, I'm gonna 199 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: go ahead and come out and say I think this 200 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: means nothing, and it's total coincidence. So supposedly they tracked 201 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: that woman down and she said it was just a 202 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: wrong number. Potal coincidence, that's what I think. But think 203 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: about that though, Like, had that not happened, a lot 204 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: of other stuff would have gone unnoticed. Right, it's a 205 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: big deal. So before she goes back to bed, she 206 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: noticed the lights are on downstairs. She said, you know, 207 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: turn the lights off, locked the door before you go 208 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: to bed. So one of her kids is on the 209 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: couch asleep. She's like, wait a minute, the doors unlocked, 210 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: the lights are on. Um, they shouldn't have done that. 211 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 1: So let me lock the doors and turn off the lights. 212 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: And she leaves the one that's asleep on the couch asleep. 213 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: It was the one that got her to sleepy time 214 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: on the couch. That's fine. But those five younger ones 215 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: who've been playing with their toys, they were not ordered 216 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: to be found, so mom just assumed they went upstairs 217 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: to bed. So she goes back to bed, and then 218 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: like an hour later she's awoken by like a thump 219 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: on the roof. Yeah, and she falls back asleep again. Well, 220 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,959 Speaker 1: it sounded like a heavy thump and a sliding down 221 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 1: of the roof. This was just something heavy head landed 222 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: on it and then slid off, and she just went 223 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: back to sleep. Very important matter. She probably figured it 224 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: was a reindeer or something like that at being Christmas, 225 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: you never know. Uh. The next time she woke up, 226 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: she woke up to panic and chaos because their house 227 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: was on fire. And Chuck, we'll talk about the fire 228 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: right after this. All right, dude, the house is on fire, 229 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: that's right. So Sylvia a litt two year old Sylvia 230 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: is in their room with her the parents, so they 231 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: get her out obviously with them because she's in the crib. Uh. 232 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: And then seventeen year old Marion and twenty year old 233 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: John and sixth year old George Jr. Are all outside 234 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: and safe right at this point. So everyone is out 235 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: except for these five other kids, right. And they were 236 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: the top floor of the house, I believe, in two 237 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: different rooms, and the only way down is this one 238 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: single staircase. And George tried to go back into the house. 239 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: He broke through a window, cut his arm quite badly. 240 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: Um getting into through in through the window or opening 241 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: the door. Um, and runs inside and the entire downstairs 242 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: floor is totally engulfed in flame and smoke. He can't 243 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: see anything, but he can see that there's no way 244 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: he can go up the staircase or anyone can make 245 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: it down the staircase, So he runs back outside of 246 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: the house to try to figure out another way to 247 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: get up to those kids on the on the top floor. Yeah, 248 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: and here's an interesting point, Um. One of the relatives 249 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: of I think it was the guy who ended up 250 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: marrying the youngest daughter later in life. UM Sylvia said 251 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: they did a lot of research on this, and he 252 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: said the original police report said that the very first 253 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: statement said that the two sons, John and George, who 254 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: got out, said they actually ran into the other kid's 255 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: rooms and physically took them awake. And then later on 256 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: in interviews they said no, they just called out to them, UM, 257 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: and assume they heard. But it's still is a mystery 258 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: as to whether or not that really happened. Police will 259 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: say the first statement is usually the accurate one, UM, 260 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: but that's just speculation. So from what I understand, the 261 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: family rationalized that later on by saying that the two 262 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: boys probably felt very guilty, and they said that they 263 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: did what they wished. They had or felt that they 264 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: should have done. That makes sense, and that their revisions 265 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: later on were actually the factual ones that they tried 266 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: to rouse their siblings by just shouting up the stairs. 267 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: I can buy that. Um. So Papa tries to get in, 268 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: cuts himself really bad. Then he says, wait a minute, 269 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: I have this ladder that leans up against the house. 270 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: Always always let me go grab that ladders not they're 271 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: very weird. It is very weird. They would be found 272 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: in a ditch like from the house later on, and 273 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: later on witnesses supposedly saw dude stealing it, uh from 274 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: the garage. But there's so many things that people say 275 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: about this case that it's hard to know what's true 276 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: and what was invented. That is true that they saw 277 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: a guy a dude, well they report that they saw 278 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: a guy. Well that guy the guy actually was found 279 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: and was arrested and charged for stealing and never questioned 280 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: about the actual fire. The guy that stole the ladder. Yeah, okay, 281 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: so they he says. The dad says, let me get 282 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: my trucks, my big uh coal Holland trucks and pull 283 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: because those are tall. Let me pull that next to 284 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: the house. Climb up on that. Uh, neither one of 285 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: the trucks start, even though they've been using them to 286 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: work earlier that day. Yeah. So the thinking by the 287 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: cops and everyone else pretty much is in the panic 288 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: he and his son flooded the engines trying to get 289 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: him started, and that they wouldn't start. Yeah, but it 290 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: became yet another like fishy detail that made this family 291 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: suspect like something really weird happened here. Yeah, and then 292 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: later there was a totally don't understand the whole engine 293 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 1: removal theory. So it doesn't make any sense that guy 294 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: who stole the ladder was caught stealing a block and 295 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: tackle that you would use to remove engines. Yeah, that 296 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. But it doesn't mean like he 297 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: messed with their car or used that block and tackle 298 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 1: to do anything to the engines. They probably just flooded 299 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: him that one. I'm I'm in Green Mountain. So this 300 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: this family they're watching helplessly as the house is going 301 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: up in flames that was burned to the ground in 302 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: about forty five minutes, ostensibly with the children trapped inside. Yeah, 303 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: and if you think why didn't the fire the fire 304 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 1: trucks come the Faettville Fire Department. Uh you know, it 305 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: was was Fayetteville, West Virginia, Christmas. It was Christmas night 306 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: or morning, I guess. At this point, um, uh you know, 307 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: one of the daughters went to a neighbor's house called 308 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: the fire department. No operators on duty even right, And 309 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: another neighbor who saw this didn't have a phone at 310 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: their house, so they went to the local tavern and 311 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: they called the operator to report the fire too, and 312 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: they couldn't get the operator either operator was probably at 313 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: home sleeping for Christmas, that's right. So eventually someone drives 314 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: and literally physically tracks down uh fire Chief F. J. Morris, 315 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: who does not come out smelling well in this, Well 316 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: he doesn't. He said, no, I can't drive the fire 317 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: truck as the fire chief. And the way that they 318 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: don't even have a siren. The way that they alerted 319 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: the fire department was it's called a phone tree. They 320 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: just start calling one another, then they called the next person, 321 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: which made even the last sense because again the statters 322 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: were the only people in West Virginia with a phone 323 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: in their house. That's not true. Uh So eventually, seven 324 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: hours later, at eight a m. The fire truck arrives 325 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: to find a smoldering pile of ash, and a lot 326 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: of people are like, well, clearly the fire department was 327 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: paid off or told to halt. From what I gather, 328 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: it was sheer ineptitude. And also the sense I think 329 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: the fire marshal or fire chief defended himself later saying, yeah, 330 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: he said I couldn't drive the fire truckside to wait 331 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: for somebody who could. And also that house went up 332 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: so fast there was no there wasn't any need for 333 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: us to get there in any kind of hurry. Well, 334 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: I mean that's probably true. He also said burned in 335 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: like between thirty and forty five minutes. Yeah, if you're 336 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: a fire chief, that's not what you want to say, 337 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: you know, like who cares when we get there? Also, 338 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: one of the firemen who showed up was Jenny Satter's brother, 339 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: So it's not like there was this conspiracy to among 340 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: the fire department necessarily, although that is a common belief 341 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: in people who pay attention to this case. Is so, 342 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: what they find eight am as a house burn't to 343 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:53,479 Speaker 1: the ground, what they don't find are any remnants of 344 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: those five children. Yeah, and here in is where the 345 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: mystery really kicks in the family starts like paying attention 346 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 1: to little weird details. At first, they just assumed that 347 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: the kids have they're they're just totally gone. They were 348 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: totally burned up. Well that's what the fire chief said. 349 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: He was like, there's no remains whatsoever because it burned 350 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: them to nothing. They did like a cursory examination of 351 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: the rubble. They did find some other stuff, like they 352 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: found appliances that were recognizable. They found a couple other things, 353 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: but they never found any of the kids. Um. And 354 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: they took the fire chief's word at face value and said, Okay, 355 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: well our kids are in there. We can't bear to 356 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: the side of this any longer. So George went and 357 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: got a bunch of dirt and buried this site in 358 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: about five ft of fill dirt and decided to plant 359 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: a memorial garden there on the side of the house. Fire. Yeah, 360 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,959 Speaker 1: this is on January two, so that he wasn't supposed 361 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: to do this. They're supposed to leave it open to 362 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: continue to investigate. Um. The state police inspector said it 363 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 1: was faulty wiring. It's now covered in dirt. Um And 364 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: so now the family has just left alone saying what 365 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: happened to our children? Are they were they in there? Right? 366 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: So that that when they buried the place and dirt, 367 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: they assumed that the children were still in there and 368 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: this was there. They're grave now, they were never going 369 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: to be found. Um. But then, like you said, they 370 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: started thinking about weird details that emerged. Right. One of 371 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: the first ones was the idea that it was faulty wiring. 372 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: George basically knew for a fact that it wasn't faulty wiring. 373 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,959 Speaker 1: He'd recently had um an electric stove installed and just 374 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: to make sure again there he was doing pretty well, 375 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: just to make sure that the house didn't burn down 376 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,719 Speaker 1: with this new fangled electric stove, he had the wiring 377 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: in the house redone and then he had it inspected 378 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: by the power company who sent out an inspector and 379 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: said they did a good job. The wiring is fine. 380 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: So he basically knew almost for a fact that it 381 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: wasn't faulty wiring in the house. Yeah. Not only that 382 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: after the fire started, when they were outside, there were 383 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: still lights on in the house, right, So remember Jenny 384 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: came down and turned out the lights. She left the 385 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: Christmas tree lights on, and while the house was burning. 386 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: The Christmas tree was still the Christmas tree lights are on, 387 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: which must have been like a really ghastly thing to see, 388 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: you know. Uh. Speaking of the wiring, there was a 389 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: point a few months earlier, and this is definitely a 390 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: strange thing, when this guy showed up. He was a stranger, 391 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: no one knew him, and he asked about, you know, 392 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: working as a driver, and he didn't have any work 393 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: for him, but he was sort of just I guess. 394 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: They had the conversation outdoors, wandered around at the back 395 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: of his house and said, you know what you're wiring 396 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: here at your fuse box is going to cause a 397 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: fire someday. And George thought, well, that's a really weird 398 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: thing to say, because not only did I have it 399 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: just inspected and it's fine, it's just a strange thing 400 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: for you to say, Mr stranger, get off my property 401 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: pretty much, but take the CONNOTI very nice, but weird 402 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: and disconcerting after the fact. Obviously, sure he didn't think 403 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: anything of at the time other than that's a weird 404 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: thing to say. Yeah. Um. Another fishy thing that happened 405 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: that really kind of stuck out in retrospect was the 406 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: life insurance salesman. Right, a life insurance salesman came through 407 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 1: and um tried to sell George some life insurance policies 408 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 1: for his children, and George didn't bite, and the guy 409 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: got I rate and his quote was kind of weird. Actually, Yeah, 410 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: he said, your house is going to go up and 411 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: smoke your g D house. Yeah, your children are going 412 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: to be destroyed. And then here's here's where it really 413 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: gets weird. He says, you will be repaid for the 414 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: dirty things you've been saying about Mussolini. And George just 415 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: went like, get off my property. Yeah, just the usual. Yea. 416 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: So remember we said that he was outspoken about Mussolina 417 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: and his politics. Um, clearly this got around to this dude, 418 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,239 Speaker 1: and uh, it's just a weird dis consort any thing 419 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: to say, especially after these kids look like they may 420 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: have perished in this fire. Yeah, especially if he didn't 421 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: like make a big deal out of it at the time. 422 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: Was this like a normal business attempt in West Virginia 423 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: among the Italian community, Like your kids are gonna die, 424 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 1: You'll be repaid for what you've been saying about Mussolini. 425 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: Good day to you. I don't know, I'm sure that's 426 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: not in the handbook. What's even fishier, though, Chuck, is 427 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: that same guy served on the coroner's inquest jury that 428 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: ruled that the fire was the result of faulty wiring. 429 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: It all gets a little weird, uh, And then one other, well, 430 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: not one other, quite a few other weird things. Um. 431 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: One of the older sons said that, you know what, 432 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: right before Christmas, there was a dude parked right across 433 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: from our house, watching the school bus and watching the 434 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: younger kids get off the school bus and come to 435 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 1: the house. And it was clear that he was sitting 436 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: there watching us, and it was strange. Yeah, he was 437 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: in a van. Bet he was. He would have been 438 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: if it were like the seventies, all that sickos and seventies. So, Chuck, 439 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: let's take another break, because the mystery is about to 440 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:39,239 Speaker 1: deepen even more. The plot thickens, et cetera. All right, 441 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: so thanks for getting a little weird. And all of 442 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: a sudden, now Jenny and George the solder Um parents 443 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: start thinking like, wait a minute, are our kids actually dead? 444 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 1: Who was the last person to see them alive? That 445 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: if if John and George Jr. To be believed they 446 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: were the lasked ones to see him alive because they 447 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: went and shook them awake, But they may not have 448 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 1: actually done that well, and they changed her story to 449 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: say that they didn't. So then technically Mary in, the 450 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: seventeen year old older sister who brought the toys and 451 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: was downstairs with the kids while they were playing with them, 452 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: would have been the last to see them alive. But 453 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: I could never find anybody pressing her for what her 454 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 1: story was. So the assumption that I'm going on is 455 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: that she just fell asleep on the couch, and when 456 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: she fell asleep, the kids were still downstairs. But the 457 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 1: solders are starting to wonder, like, wait a minute, where 458 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: those kids even in the house when the house went down, 459 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: And they they're backed up by the idea that no 460 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: remains were found. Yeah, that's the one that really is 461 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: bothering them. They're like, something should have been found. Yeah, 462 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: and um, all of a sudden, this this story is 463 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: starting to get national attention in the press, and the 464 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: Sawders later on would say, George would say, if they 465 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: were burned in the house, if they died in that 466 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: house fire, I want to be convinced. And if they weren't, 467 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: I want to know what happened to them. Um, and 468 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: this kind of kicked off like a lifelong quest for 469 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: for George and Jenny UM. And in nine to try 470 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: to literally get to the bottom of it, they hired 471 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: a guy to come in and investigate, to basically excavate 472 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: the memorial site and look for the remains of the children, 473 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: and he didn't find it. Well. Yeah, and previous to that, 474 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: they did their own experiments with burning things, animal bones 475 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: and uh, this sort of self experimentation to see what 476 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: would remained. And there was always bones of course. Yeah, 477 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 1: they could never get them to just to to turn 478 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: into ash. Uh. They went to a crematorium even and said, 479 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: you know, we're probably just not even getting missing hot 480 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: enough and they said, well, actually, at two thousand degrees 481 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 1: it would take two hours to completely burn a body up. 482 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: Your house didn't get nearly that hot and it only 483 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: burned for thirty to forty five minutes, so there should 484 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: definitely be human remains like all over the place. Jenny 485 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: kind of really turned into like this citizen scientist. Actually, 486 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: she taught herself forensics as far as burning of remains goes. 487 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: She um looked into other fires. There was another fire 488 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: that happened around the same time that killed seven people. Uh, 489 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: and the remains of all seven people were found in 490 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 1: the in the burned out house as well. So She's 491 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: like getting more and more convinced, and so is George 492 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 1: that their kids are still alive. So in ninety nine 493 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: they had a a forensic investigator of some sort come 494 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: and do an investigation and an excavation of the site. 495 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: And he turned up some stuff. He found some coins, 496 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: found a dictionary that had belonged to the kids, and 497 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: he did actually find some vertebrae, and he had the 498 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: vertebrates sent off to the Smithsonian Institution actually, and they 499 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: investigated this and issued a report about the bones. Yes 500 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: they did. They said the human bones consist of four 501 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: lumbar vertebrae belonging to one individual. The transfers recess of fused, 502 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: so the age of this individual death should have been 503 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: sixteen or seventeen top limit twenty two UM. And on 504 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: this basis, the bones show greater skelepter maturation than what 505 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: I would expect from a fourteen year old who was 506 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: the oldest missing child. So basically it was either placed 507 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: there by someone, it was not charred. It was not 508 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: a part of the fire. It wasn't one of the kids, 509 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: and it was either place there by someone or brought 510 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: it happened to be in that dirt. Can you imagine that? Like, 511 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: think about that. George went and got a bunch of 512 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: filled dirt to come and fill in this memorial site 513 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: and ended up disturbing a grave, like maybe an unmarked 514 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: grave somewhere that didn't find. I didn't think that was remarkable. 515 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: That's crazy. If you went and got filled dirt and 516 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: you found bones, human bones, Yeah, I wouldn't. Can you 517 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: tell by the pitch of my voice that that is crazy? 518 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: I can uh. The The weird thing that they found 519 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: was a uh this green rubber casing that later they 520 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: found out it was a part of some kind of 521 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: bomb um an incendiary device. And some people think that 522 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: that's a weird thing to have on your property house 523 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: that just burned. And they think this could have been 524 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: the sound that Jeanie heard in the middle of the 525 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: night when something hit the roof and roll off. Who knows, 526 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: but she didn't hear a big boom. It seemed like 527 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: if it was a bomb, that would have been pretty obvious. Yeah, 528 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,959 Speaker 1: But I mean if it was like a napalm bomment 529 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily explode it just like nites threads. Yeah, so 530 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: they don't make noise. I don't know. We'll go experiment 531 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: with one. UM. So that that objection speculation, right. That 532 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: Smithsonian report actually said it's really curious that that the 533 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: bodies weren't recovered or found in this pretty good excavation 534 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: that you guys hired this dude to do UM and 535 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: it actually set off a larger investigation in West Virginia. 536 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: The governor and the UM I think the state police 537 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: superintendent both said, what you guys are doing is hopeless. 538 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: The cases closed. Your kids died in that fire. The 539 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: case closed, and the solders were like, no, we're gonna 540 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: go hire a private detective. And they did hire a 541 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: private detective. And he started sniffing around town and UM 542 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: heard a weird rumor that the police that the fire 543 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: chief had said that he actually found a heart and 544 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: had put it in a box and buried it at 545 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: the site, which is a weird thing to do, it is, 546 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: and he went to the guy and was like, you 547 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: gotta show me where this thing is buried. Uh, he 548 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: does he actually dig it up and they find a 549 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: sort of I wouldn't say fresh beef liver, fresh ish 550 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: but not burned. And then he admits, you know what, 551 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: I put this there hoping that someone would find this 552 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: and just think it was a body part of one 553 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: of their kids. We can close the case, very ham 554 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: fisted way of closing a case. Jerk. Yeah, And it's 555 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: just I don't know why he thought that would work. 556 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: I don't want to say he's dumb, but it was 557 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: a pretty dumb thing to do. Uh. So previous to this, 558 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: all sorts of weird claims had started to fly in 559 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: reportings of sightings all over the country. One woman was 560 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: operating a tour stop about fifty miles west and she said, no, 561 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: I saw them the morning after the fire, served in breakfast. 562 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: Uh they got into a car with Florida license plates. 563 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: Um and and trust me it was your kids. So 564 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: that freaks him out of course. Uh. Then there was 565 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: a hotel not too far in Charleston, and apparently late 566 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: at night, the I think four kids had checked in 567 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: accompanied by some adults, two women and two men, all Italian. 568 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: And she said I tried to talk to the kids 569 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: and tried to be nice, and the dudes freaked out 570 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: and started talking Italian and like shuffled the kids out 571 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: of there real quick. Yeah, and they left early the 572 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: next morning, super super sketchy. Some ladies said that she 573 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: saw the kids looking out of a car that was 574 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: driving by as the house was on fire. Um. And 575 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: then there were even more tips that kind of poured 576 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: in over the years, um, including one uh that said 577 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: that they were actually being held by a distant relative 578 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: of Jenny's. Um. Someone said that Martha was in a 579 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: convent out west I believe yep. In nineteen sixty seven, 580 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: they got a letter from a lady in Houston said that, uh, 581 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: the oldest boy or one of the boys Lewis had 582 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: lived in that town, got drunk one night and basically 583 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: told everyone who he was. Um. They actually went and 584 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: in fact, George Solder and sometimes Jenny, he would go 585 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: all over the country tracking down these leads and always 586 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: sadly comes back empty handed. When he went to Texas, 587 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: he got down there, met with the guy and it 588 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: wasn't his son, obviously, but um, you know I had 589 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,800 Speaker 1: to go back and tell his wife, like another another 590 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: zero in this one. Yeah, and like it's really sad 591 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: when you step back and look at it from the 592 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: perspective of the parents, like, they were not convinced that 593 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: their kids died in this fire. They were open to 594 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: the possibility, but they weren't convinced, and they wanted to 595 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: know for the rest of their lives. So, Yeah, he 596 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: would go all over the country chasing down leads. And 597 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: the reason he would do this, Chuck, is because he 598 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: got no help whatsoever from the local authorities. They The 599 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: Sawders actually wrote to the FBI and got a reply 600 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: from j Edgar Hoover himself that said, I'd love to help, 601 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: but this is out of our jurisdiction. If your local 602 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: cops will invite us to help, we'd be happy to 603 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: help investigate. And the local cops said, thanks anyway, and 604 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: turn the FBI down. I'm I can't imagine how frustrating 605 00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: that must have been for the Sawders to see that, 606 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: to see Jagger Hoover say we'll help out, but these 607 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: guys have to invite us and get turned down for that, 608 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, so that, I mean it was the 609 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: kind of their life obsession, and obsession is a really 610 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 1: good good way to put it. There's a story of 611 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: George seeing a picture in a paper of a ballet 612 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: class in Manhattan, and he became convinced that one of 613 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: the girls in the picture was his daughter, Betty, and 614 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 1: he drove to Manhattan and demanded to see his daughter, 615 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: and the parents are the school was like, you need 616 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,240 Speaker 1: to get out of here, dude, you've lost your mind. 617 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 1: This is our kid. No, you can't see our kid. 618 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: So he had to go back home after that. So 619 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,359 Speaker 1: it gets super weird. Jenny comes home, gets a male 620 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: and sees a letter addressed to her, not to the 621 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: family or to her and her husband. To Jenny Sawder 622 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: opens it up post markedin Kentucky, no return address, and 623 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: there was a photo of an Italian man. Well looked 624 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: at the Italian in his mid twenties, so the age pits, 625 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: and on the back of it said, in handwriting, Louis Solder, 626 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: I love brother Frankie. I l I l boys A 627 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: little boys A nine zero, one, three two or three five, 628 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: no idea, the most weird, mysterious thing you could imagine. 629 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: And I looked at a picture. They were like, this 630 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 1: very well could be our son. It looks a lot 631 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: like him. It looks more like him than I do. 632 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: I didn't think it was him. I was like, the 633 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: eyebrows didn't match to me, the nose didn't match. But 634 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: you can never tell a kid from nine to twenty five, 635 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: you know, because this is like almost twenty he might 636 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: have looked like you know, it could be true, he 637 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: might have looked different enough. Um. But yeah, that mystery 638 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 1: just was never ever solved. And so back in the fifties, 639 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: like after they started getting shut down by the local 640 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: cops and then the state cops and everybody, they you know, 641 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: they started to take matters in their own hands. And 642 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: one of the things they did was erect that billboard 643 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: that you asked Justin McElroy about. It became kind of famous. 644 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: Aside from the mcilroys, everybody in West Virginia knew about it, um. 645 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: And it was a billboard on the Solder's property with pictures, 646 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: big pictures of the five children, um, with their name 647 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: and age and then basically uh rundown of what the 648 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: family thought may have happened to them. And it was 649 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: at first they offered a five thousand dollar reward and 650 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: then up to the ten thousand dollars. Yeah, and they 651 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,280 Speaker 1: owned it. So it was there for I mean until 652 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: the eighties until um, so George died in and then 653 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: Jenny died in nine and after Jenny died, they took 654 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: the billboard down. That's right. What other reports came in. 655 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: One bus driver said he claimed he saw someone throwing 656 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: quote fireballs onto the house. Some of the stuff reeks that. 657 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: I was pretty wasted at the time. Some of the 658 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: stuff reeks have like that after the fact, stuff that 659 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 1: people kind of invent like wait a minute, saw I 660 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: got throwing fireballs? But there was verified after the fact weirdness. 661 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, for sure. You know that keeps this this 662 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: case alive. Like one thing we didn't mention their telephone 663 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: line was cut. Yeah, and some people say it was 664 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: a guy that stole the ladder, climbed up cut the 665 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: phone lines so they couldn't reach anyone. Uh But I 666 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 1: mean you said they found the guy. Did he did 667 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: they ask him about that? From what I understand, they 668 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: didn't ask him anything. They just find him for for theft, 669 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: ladder theft and block and tackle theft. Oh. The other 670 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,839 Speaker 1: weird thing is um they hired another private investigator at 671 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: one point to track down where that letter came from. 672 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,439 Speaker 1: The picture of Lewis and this guy just disappears. Yeah, 673 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 1: he may have just been like a CD gum too, 674 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,800 Speaker 1: you know, maybe and just took their money. Quite possibly, 675 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,320 Speaker 1: or maybe he was murdered because he found out the truth. 676 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, but they said that he literally vanished 677 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: like they couldn't ever reach him again. I think it's 678 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 1: likely he's a CD gum. She we just took some 679 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: desperate famili's money and hopefully he's burning in hell. Did 680 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: the mafia rub him out? Because that became one of 681 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: the leading theories that George was approached by the mafia, 682 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: rebuffed their advances and um that was it. They they 683 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: took the kids. Uh well yeah, And supposedly it's not 684 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 1: just a total flight of fancy. Apparently the mafia was 685 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: really big in the coal business and the trucking business 686 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: in the area at that time, so it is entirely 687 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: possible he was approached by the mafia. And he does 688 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 1: sound like the kind of guy who tell him to 689 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: like go stick it. Yeah, you know, he also may 690 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: have made some enemies with the Mussolini cracks. What else 691 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 1: was there? Well, one thing that that was lost to 692 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: time was that vertebrae. Even though it's almost that it 693 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: was not one of the kids. At least if they 694 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,439 Speaker 1: still had that, they could DNA test it now. Yeah, 695 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: but of course they can't. Yeah. And so little little 696 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,839 Speaker 1: baby Sylvia who is two maybe three at the time, 697 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: I think two is is what I've seen most um 698 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: is the last surviving Solder child. And she said, like, 699 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: these of her earliest memories are of that night of 700 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: the fire and seeing her father like losing his mind, 701 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: trying to get in his house and bleeding. Um. And 702 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: she promised her parents that she would keep the story alive, 703 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: so she she talks about it a lot um. She 704 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:20,399 Speaker 1: goes onto the online like online sleuth websites that talk 705 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: about the case, and like kind of feeds information to 706 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: people and tries to keep the story alive. It's just crazy, man, 707 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: You go to bed, you wake up with a fire, 708 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: and five of your five of your children are just vanished. 709 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: And there's no way they burned up to nothing. That's 710 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: just impossible. So I read this blog post. Like a 711 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: MPR person named Stacy Horn did a piece on it, 712 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: like years back, and she wrote this really long blog 713 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,359 Speaker 1: post about stuff that had been cut from the from 714 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,319 Speaker 1: the piece, and I got the imperson they were trying 715 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: to play up the mystery, and she said that she 716 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 1: personally came to believe that the children did die in 717 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: the fire, and that there was plenty of evidence that 718 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: supports that idea, but that the media tends to play 719 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: up the other. But she also said that there's enough 720 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: weird stuff surrounding it that if she learned that they 721 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: were still alive, she wouldn't be shocked. Well, yeah, and 722 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: the fact that they never got in touch, because you 723 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: you know, it's not like these kids were strange from 724 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,759 Speaker 1: their parents or I mean, they were a tight knit 725 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,320 Speaker 1: family by all accounts, right, And the family rationalized that 726 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,839 Speaker 1: by saying that their family was in danger and they 727 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: were trying to protect their parents by never getting into 728 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: which would kind of align with the mafia theory. Yeah. 729 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 1: Just terrible man, lose half your family without a trace. Yeah. Uh, 730 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,240 Speaker 1: if you want to know more about this, there's plenty 731 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 1: of sites on the internet that have stuff. But we 732 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 1: found this really great article that we bass on by 733 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: Karen Abbott. It was called The Children Who Went Up 734 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 1: and Smoke. Yeah, the NPR wents good and Stacy Hornson 735 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: is pretty cool too. You know, it's weird. Does I 736 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: have a good friend named Stacy Horne. It's not the 737 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 1: same one. No, But when I clicked, I was like, 738 00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,360 Speaker 1: oh interesting, and I clicked on her thing and it 739 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 1: said stay seehorn like cat. She's a cat person. My 740 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 1: friend Stacy is a noted cat person and it's not 741 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: the same person, you know, And I was like, weird doppelganger? Yeah, no, no, 742 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: maybe the name doppelganger. Yeah, I'd have to see her face. 743 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: I think I said something, well, how about the search bar? 744 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,439 Speaker 1: And since that, since search far, it's time for listener mail, Chuck, 745 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 1: handy dandy search bar. People said that they miss that. 746 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: I used to say that the handy search bar. Yeah. 747 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,280 Speaker 1: I don't think I said handy dandy? Did I? Maybe 748 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:39,239 Speaker 1: Jerry said yes, that's back when she listened, so I 749 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 1: would take that better word. Hey guys, huge fan of 750 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 1: the show. Two exclamation points. Yeah, I've been listening to 751 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 1: your show for about a year now, and I turned 752 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,720 Speaker 1: my wife and kids onto the program, and they're all hooked. 753 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,719 Speaker 1: We had a stuff you should Know marathon even in 754 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: our car right back to Chicago from Athens, Georgia. We 755 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: look forward to your new episodes and are burning through 756 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,919 Speaker 1: them quickly to pick up the pace. You guys made 757 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: reference to lead paints being on roadside signs. That is 758 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 1: highly unlikely, says Sean. Uh. Those signs are changed quite 759 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: frequently in her base, predominantly Uh. And then he goes 760 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: on to name like eight different types of pigment chemistries 761 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 1: which I won't read out, and other mixtures of iron oxides. Uh. 762 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: He said. Lead chromates can still be found, however, in 763 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,400 Speaker 1: road markings like yellow and white lines on the street. 764 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 1: Any new road markings are now done with the chemistries 765 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: I mentioned previously, but there are many states across the 766 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: country that still haven't gotten around replacing removing the lead 767 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,720 Speaker 1: chromate based paints on the street. Not trying to nitpick. 768 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,920 Speaker 1: It's common misconception of people outside the color industry, and 769 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 1: based on my nerd ing out with the chemistry name dropping, 770 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: I bet you can't guess what industry I'm in. Here's 771 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:58,319 Speaker 1: a hint. I don't dance. He s needs a chemistry nerd. 772 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: Was that do thing thing in street? Nerds don't dance? 773 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:05,319 Speaker 1: I think that that may be a reference. Is something 774 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: we said that I'm not picking up on him. Maybe 775 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,440 Speaker 1: maybe Sean can clear it up. Yeah, we need to 776 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 1: follow up listener mail. All right, that's from Sean Mula. 777 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,760 Speaker 1: Oh it was German. He didn't he dropped the m rail. Okay, 778 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:23,359 Speaker 1: so more he didn't want that association. Well, thanks Sean, 779 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,799 Speaker 1: we appreciate that. Uh, let us know about the dancing thing. 780 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,479 Speaker 1: I think we're not the only ones who're curious, right, Yeah, 781 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what that means. If you know what 782 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: Shawn is talking about, you can tweet to us at 783 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 1: s Y s K podcast. You can join us on 784 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:39,960 Speaker 1: Facebook dot com, slash stuff you Should Know. You can 785 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,959 Speaker 1: send us an email and stuff podcast at house stuff 786 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 1: works dot com, and he's always joined us at home 787 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 1: on the web Stuff you Should Know dot com. For 788 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,800 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, does it 789 00:44:53,880 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 1: house stuff works dot com.