Speaker 1: Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and The Black Effect. All right, y'all, our
Speaker 1: next guest is an amazing attorney tevy personality, former cast
Speaker 1: on Real Housewives of New York. You've also seen her
Speaker 1: on The Breakfast Club. You can also check her out
Speaker 1: on The Grio as she offers legal commentary. Y'all, it's
Speaker 1: Ebony K. Williams. We're going to talk about that whole Montgomery,
Speaker 1: Alabama thing. I have to talk to her about it.
Speaker 1: I don't even know if I'm supposed to ask, but
Speaker 1: don't y'all want to know from a legal perspective, I've
Speaker 1: been so worried. I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, people
Speaker 1: were defending themselves, but I'm so I'm so worried if
Speaker 1: somebody's gonna catch a case. But hey, listen, that was
Speaker 1: some good trouble. But Ebony K. Williams, she is going
Speaker 1: to give us her I'm gonna ask. I shouldn't say
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask. I'm gonna see what she says right
Speaker 1: here on Checking In. All right, y'all, this episode, I'm
Speaker 1: really excited about it. An amazing, amazing attorney TV personality
Speaker 1: hosting her own shows and podcast speaker and author shacking
Speaker 1: some tables. Please give it up, but really, really, really,
Speaker 1: I believe to be gentle underneath everything. Give it up
Speaker 1: for Ebony K. Williams.
Speaker 2: It is so exciting for me to be with my cousin,
Speaker 2: Michelle Williams. I'm just kidding. I just used to say
Speaker 2: that for many years, just so you know, I claim
Speaker 2: all beautiful William's women.
Speaker 3: No, this is an honor. I love, love, love what
Speaker 3: you were doing with this show, my dear, and I
Speaker 3: can't wait to talk.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here. I can imagine
Speaker 1: everybody's calling you, texting you, wanting opinions about everything that
Speaker 1: happens on this here planet. Right, We're going to talk
Speaker 1: about so many things because I want to respect your
Speaker 1: time and respect so much that you got going on.
Speaker 1: But I can imagine two people maybe expecting you to uh,
Speaker 1: they forget you're human at times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's interesting, Michelle being I became a
Speaker 2: practicing lawyer young in life. I was twenty three actually
Speaker 2: when I started practicing, and it's a it's a blessing.
Speaker 2: It's you know, I'm a first generation college graduate in
Speaker 2: my family the first person to go to you know,
Speaker 2: a graduate or professional school. So I'm very aware of
Speaker 2: the privilege that I occupy.
Speaker 3: And also.
Speaker 2: It's funny because as soon as you become any kind
Speaker 2: of lawyer, everybody thinks you're every kind of lawyer and
Speaker 2: you got legal advice out the wazoo. Girl, I got
Speaker 2: a ticket. Girl, I gotta go to child support court.
Speaker 2: Girl I got And god knows, Untie wants to help
Speaker 2: everybody's legal woes, but it can it can take a toll,
Speaker 2: which is why I went ahead and launched my podcast,
Speaker 2: Holding Court with Ebanie K. Williams, so I can touch
Speaker 2: Michelle on a lot of those different buckets, so that
Speaker 2: people can have the information when it comes to the
Speaker 2: law and the culture.
Speaker 1: Well it's funny you say say that, but I was
Speaker 1: gonna get there. But you got to show as well
Speaker 1: as a justice with Judge Ebanie K Williams, so we'll
Speaker 1: be able to see a lot in process. So what
Speaker 1: was your I know when medicine, a doctor has a specialty,
Speaker 1: but I'm not what side of the law did you practice?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I like all lawyers, we get our juris
Speaker 2: doctorates abroad, you know, doctorate in jurisprudence. But my special team, Mitchelle,
Speaker 2: was criminal defense. So after I came out of law school,
Speaker 2: I went and worked at a big firm. I hated it,
Speaker 2: hated it, remember that from my age anyway. I hated
Speaker 2: it and went to be a public defender. And that
Speaker 2: is when I fell in love with the practice of
Speaker 2: the law. I represented the poor people, the indigener people,
Speaker 2: the people that people turned their back on, and I
Speaker 2: learned how.
Speaker 3: To be an advocate.
Speaker 2: Michelle, Like, it's one thing to know the law, to
Speaker 2: understand the intellectual aspects, the academic aspects, but to become
Speaker 2: what I call a people's lawyer and really learn what
Speaker 2: it is to hear someone's story and learn what it
Speaker 2: is to understand how to advocate on behalf and be
Speaker 2: a voice for the voiceless. That's the part of law
Speaker 2: I really fell in love with. So I did that,
Speaker 2: and I specialized in criminal defense work and some family work.
Speaker 2: So that's going to be divorced, that's going to be
Speaker 2: child custody, that's going to.
Speaker 3: Be child support and all of those fun things. Michelle.
Speaker 1: Okay, now where are you from, because earlier you said
Speaker 1: somebody that's how we got we get down in the South,
Speaker 1: that's right.
Speaker 2: So I am from North Carolina. I grew up in Charlotte,
Speaker 2: shout out to the Queen City. I was born close
Speaker 2: to the Brew ha, that's got the culture and a
Speaker 2: chokehol right now, I was born in Louisiana. So you
Speaker 2: talk talking about Louisiana, Alabama, and Mississippi, the deep deep South.
Speaker 2: So I'm deep South born.
Speaker 1: Well, since you named Alabama, there has been a storm
Speaker 1: bruin or a tornado or tsunami. Something ran through the
Speaker 1: river walk of Montgomery, right. I know your phone been
Speaker 1: blowing up just from a legal.
Speaker 3: What's your thought, Well, Michelle, full disclosure.
Speaker 2: My first thought was I had to watch the footage
Speaker 2: several times, the viral video footage, because my mother, Gloria,
Speaker 2: now lives in Montgomery. I love that you're laugh think,
Speaker 2: but I'm about to be very serious with your child.
Speaker 2: My mother, Gloria, Mama Gloria, who everybody that knows me
Speaker 2: knows Mama Gloria, Mama Gloria, lives in Montgomery, Alabama. She
Speaker 2: moved there during the pandemic. So I had to watch
Speaker 2: the footage, Michelle, to make sure that my mother was
Speaker 2: not in the brue haha, because that's something she would do.
Speaker 1: Girl.
Speaker 2: She would have been minding her business and when she
Speaker 2: saw all of that, she would have went and just
Speaker 2: got a leaky in real quick. Just get a leaky
Speaker 2: in real quick, and keep on walking. So once I
Speaker 2: made sure Gloria was not there, then I went ahead
Speaker 2: and was able to analyze the footage gown because that
Speaker 2: is something my mama would do. Child. But no, listen,
Speaker 2: this was pretty cut and dry legally for me, Michelle.
Speaker 2: What you see as you see a black man who
Speaker 2: actually works for the municipality doing his job. He's and
Speaker 2: his job is to make sure that when the river
Speaker 2: boat is ready to come in, it's got a dock
Speaker 2: spot to come into and it's thousands of dollars riding
Speaker 2: on that, right, Because everybody knows going back to the
Speaker 2: culture of the Deep South and the del to the
Speaker 2: Bayu whatever we want to call it, that river boat culture,
Speaker 2: that gambling casino.
Speaker 3: Maybe that's the livelihood. Those are tourists.
Speaker 2: There's a relatively poor communities, Michelle, as you know, right,
Speaker 2: So the fact that people feed their families and rely
Speaker 2: on the river boat money is for real. So it's
Speaker 2: a serious job. So that black man was doing his job.
Speaker 2: He tells these white people, I'll just call him that
Speaker 2: for now, that they cannot park their fortune. Both there
Speaker 2: and what you see as a breach of what we
Speaker 2: call a social contract. A social contract in this country
Speaker 2: says that white people whole authority and that black people
Speaker 2: are expected to constantly be an a posture of submission.
Speaker 2: So when this black man decided to actually do his
Speaker 2: job and assert his actual authority on this matter, he
Speaker 2: was met with hostility, and Michelle, he.
Speaker 3: Was with violence.
Speaker 2: He was met with absolute direct violence, unprovoked violence, and
Speaker 2: what started to be a mob attack of several white
Speaker 2: grown men coming for this one black brother. Thank God,
Speaker 2: you know, to God be the glory of the revolution
Speaker 2: was televised right and all everybody that saw this gang up,
Speaker 2: this mob influenced this brother, came to his defense and
Speaker 2: came to his rescue, including the young man in the
Speaker 2: pool shout out to and they say black folks can't swim,
Speaker 2: but we don't.
Speaker 3: That's a lie.
Speaker 2: And everybody and their mama literally but thank god, it
Speaker 2: wasn't my mama, because I did look, but everybody else
Speaker 2: and their mama came to this brother's and I think
Speaker 2: for me, Michelle, it was also really it was wonderful
Speaker 2: to see. We saw the culture celebrate and the only
Speaker 2: the way that black culture can. We got the memes going,
Speaker 2: we got the songs going to react like what hilarious.
Speaker 2: But I think we're also happy deep down, Michelle, because
Speaker 2: we know it wasn't that long ago. It wasn't that
Speaker 2: long ago that we had to sometimes sit in a
Speaker 2: posture of defense. We had to kind of just take it.
Speaker 2: And the good news about it today we don't have
Speaker 2: to take it. We don't have to take it at all.
Speaker 2: And so, and Montgomery actually has a black mayor, which
Speaker 2: is important right when we get to the politics of it.
Speaker 3: He's a young black mayor too, Steve Mayor, Steve Reid.
Speaker 2: And knowing that when this comes to the legal of
Speaker 2: it all, which law enforcement has already started handing out
Speaker 2: warrants and things of this nature, it's going to be
Speaker 2: a good thing for justice, Michelle, that the leader of
Speaker 2: the city of Montgomery, Alabama is a young black man
Speaker 2: who's gonna be able to identify with this brother who
Speaker 2: was being attacked.
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, will that mayor feel pressure from both
Speaker 1: sides white people and black folks because white folks gonna
Speaker 1: be you do the right thing, because you got the
Speaker 1: man with the chair that came in, you know, hit
Speaker 1: the people in It was so many people getting licks in.
Speaker 1: My fear is that people have been arrested, will be arrested,
Speaker 1: like you said, warrants will be and will black people
Speaker 1: get the same grace and release that white people in
Speaker 1: this instance will get a slap on the wrist, maybe
Speaker 1: probation and community service. Will people actually have to serve
Speaker 1: time for this? That's my concern, And that's it, Like, that's.
Speaker 2: It, It's valid, it's vali mi shoe. That's a legitimate concern.
Speaker 2: This is where all of the pieces to the puzzle matter, right.
Speaker 2: So when we talk about black district attorneys, and let
Speaker 2: me be clear before I say this, just cause somebody's
Speaker 2: black and in a position doesn't necessarily right.
Speaker 3: We know all skin folks ain't always can folk.
Speaker 2: However, it is a better chance of justice for black
Speaker 2: citizens when those positions of power in the system look
Speaker 2: and can experience our experience. So you talk about black
Speaker 2: district attorney, black prosecutor, where you talk about black judges
Speaker 2: residing on these cases, those types of things matter, Michelle,
Speaker 2: to your point of Okay, we know the charges are
Speaker 2: going to be out there because they have to charge him,
Speaker 2: right because we got the video, so they have not
Speaker 2: a lot of choice. But then you're right, that's when
Speaker 2: things get dismissed quietly. That's when things go to probation quietly.
Speaker 2: That's when things get a slap on the risk, defer prosecution, this, that,
Speaker 2: and the third. How do we make sure it doesn't
Speaker 2: go down like that? We got to keep applying the pressure.
Speaker 2: And you're right, is Mayor Steven Reid going to get
Speaker 2: some pressure from both sides?
Speaker 1: Yep?
Speaker 3: Should he be getting pressure from the black community? Yep?
Speaker 3: Because who voted his lovely.
Speaker 2: Self into office the black community. So I think sometimes
Speaker 2: that pressure is warranted contrary to popular belief, and this
Speaker 2: is the time to apply that pressure and it serves
Speaker 2: as a model. Right, Like, if this is what's going
Speaker 2: down in Montgomery, Alabama, I think white folks need to
Speaker 2: be on notice broadly, right that Black Americans are not
Speaker 2: We're not accepting a position of subordination.
Speaker 3: We're just not doing it. We never wanted to do it.
Speaker 2: On accepting disrespect, Yeah, yeah, we're not We're not going
Speaker 2: to accept disrespect.
Speaker 3: We're not going to accept We're not going to.
Speaker 2: Be put in a place that's not first class. We
Speaker 2: are first class citizens. We are Americans, Michelle. We always
Speaker 2: have been, contrary to the statute. But now because thank
Speaker 2: God for videotape, thank God for body cams from police officers,
Speaker 2: thank God for viral moments. And this is where social
Speaker 2: media is advantageous because we know the places is not right,
Speaker 2: but this is one of the places where social media
Speaker 2: can do some good. And I think White America better
Speaker 2: sleep with one eye open to the extent that you
Speaker 2: know you can't just like you say disrespect and dismiss
Speaker 2: black authority any longer, because it's a new day.
Speaker 1: It is a new day. And again we're not tolerating
Speaker 1: or standing for disrespect, whether it's the blatant disrespect or
Speaker 1: that passive, aggressive, under the radar disrespect, because it all
Speaker 1: never even had to happen. Y'all wouldn't have to get
Speaker 1: your butt to beat if you would have just ticular
Speaker 1: steering wheel on whatever the pontoon has and just movement.
Speaker 1: But you really thought your small pondtoon would got to
Speaker 1: sit in the way of that big old river boat.
Speaker 1: It was the audacity to think that, no, we got
Speaker 1: here first, we just go we get to sit here,
Speaker 1: Like who told you you could sit a little pone tun?
Speaker 1: It's like me sit in my boat where the carnival
Speaker 1: cruise ships got to come down?
Speaker 3: Right, this cruise back.
Speaker 1: That's all right?
Speaker 3: When you say this to Michelle.
Speaker 2: To that point, one has to wonder, though, the audacity
Speaker 2: to put your patuone where it didn't belong. That's the
Speaker 2: first audacity. The second though, had the riverboat walker a
Speaker 2: worker excuse me, employee been a white man, I have
Speaker 2: to suspect they would have moved on the first command.
Speaker 2: I believe they felt like, I'm not listening to this
Speaker 2: black man, because in.
Speaker 3: What world does a black man what's to do?
Speaker 2: I think that's what's underneath it, right, And they messed
Speaker 2: around and they found out.
Speaker 1: My god, that's what the meaning means, mess around and
Speaker 1: find out. Thank you so much, Like I said, I'm
Speaker 1: grateful that you were able to, you know, talk to
Speaker 1: us about it, because I know that you're going to
Speaker 1: have to do a lot of commentary on this, you know,
Speaker 1: probably for the rest of the week and probably next
Speaker 1: week too. So thank you so much. Congratulations, by the way,
Speaker 1: on your new book bet on Black the subtitle the
Speaker 1: Good News about Being Black in America Today, and Evanie,
Speaker 1: in this book, you unapologetically place blackness on a pedal
Speaker 1: store and you make a call to action for black
Speaker 1: people all over the world to adopt a fresh, highly
Speaker 1: informed mindset that will change lives. Now, I guess, considering
Speaker 1: what just happened, Yeah, this question is gonna be hilarious.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that black people need to give themselves
Speaker 1: permission to be great?
Speaker 3: No? I think we have the premier Michelle. I think
Speaker 3: the play on the word.
Speaker 2: I would say is we need to take up the
Speaker 2: space right like I think Montgomery shows us what it
Speaker 2: looks like when we take up the space of our
Speaker 2: full throttle blackness. I think for so long, to be
Speaker 2: black in America meant has required for our mere survival
Speaker 2: right that we shrink, that we say less, that we
Speaker 2: do less, that we take up less roles and let's
Speaker 2: just say your industry, for instance, Michelle, that we willingly
Speaker 2: play the sidekick, that we willingly defer to secondary positions
Speaker 2: or this and that and the book and also this moment,
Speaker 2: the good news about being Black in twenty twenty three,
Speaker 2: is we no longer have to do that at all?
Speaker 3: So you could say it's giving ourselves permission.
Speaker 2: Perhaps I think it's recognizing and realizing our God given permission,
Speaker 2: because that's who really gives us the permission, right, it
Speaker 2: comes from on high. So when we are birthright as
Speaker 2: Black Americans, our birthright as the sons and daughters of
Speaker 2: our heavenly Father is to take up all the space.
Speaker 3: And that's to me the best part about being black
Speaker 3: in America today. We get to take up all the space.
Speaker 3: Look at how much space my hair is taken up
Speaker 3: in this frame.
Speaker 1: Yes, did you feel like you had to get to
Speaker 1: a place where you're like, no, I'm gonna take up
Speaker 1: the space that I know that I get to take
Speaker 1: up or all? Was it a work in progress for you?
Speaker 2: It was a very long and hard work in progress, Michelle.
Speaker 2: I will not sit up here and be dishonest and
Speaker 2: act like I came.
Speaker 3: Out of the womb. Born and listen.
Speaker 2: Born in Tansbahope, Paris, Southeast Louisiana, a small country town,
Speaker 2: to a single black mother who is brilliant and fabulous
Speaker 2: in her own right, but had very little by way
Speaker 2: of resources, I was a free lunch. You didn't have
Speaker 2: a father, didn't have any of that, so it was difficult.
Speaker 2: So there were no messages Michelle, not for media, not
Speaker 2: for most of my teachers in school. Very few messages
Speaker 2: were telling me that I was extraordinary. Very few messages
Speaker 2: were telling me that I was brilliant, that I was
Speaker 2: deserving of anything other than mediocrity. Yeah, yeah, right, So yeah,
Speaker 2: it was going through a school alongside some other black
Speaker 2: students who'd had a different experience, Michelle, Like it was
Speaker 2: when I got to UNC Chapel Hill as an undergraduate
Speaker 2: at the tender age of sixteen and looking to my
Speaker 2: left and looking to my right, and yeah, I saw
Speaker 2: other black kids in a similar position to me that
Speaker 2: came from levels of poverty and despair. I also saw
Speaker 2: black students who came from generations of physicians, who came
Speaker 2: from generations of attorneys, who came from generations of business owners.
Speaker 2: So once you start seeing that there's a magnitude and
Speaker 2: a multitude of black opportunity and experience, that was a
Speaker 2: part of my permission to take up more like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's a few different ways we get to do this
Speaker 2: thing called life.
Speaker 3: And look the way we look and that got really exciting.
Speaker 2: And then as I progressed my career, Michelle, whether it
Speaker 2: was practicing law, whether it was getting into journalism, whether
Speaker 2: it was at this network or that network. So by
Speaker 2: the time I got on Real Housewives of New York
Speaker 2: City as the first black housewife, I turned.
Speaker 1: And did unapologetically taking up the space. Like you said,
Speaker 1: on shows like Real Housewives of New York how much
Speaker 1: preparation or did you go into their thinking? Okay, sometimes
Speaker 1: not all the time. These shows can be set up
Speaker 1: to make a person fail look crazy. How did you
Speaker 1: I guess, survive or kind of pivot or duck and.
Speaker 2: Dodge that it was a lot of bobbing and weave
Speaker 2: and Michelle, so it's funny.
Speaker 3: You say that you got to bob and weave.
Speaker 2: So, yes, you're exactly right, And that is the one
Speaker 2: kind of day if you will or risk of doing
Speaker 2: reality TV, especially I know, I actually watched your full
Speaker 2: show on own, which was I enjoyed it. I ain't
Speaker 2: gonna say nothing. I liked it anyway, stop in Mitchelle.
Speaker 2: But reality TV, as you know, is risky in that way.
Speaker 2: It's risky in the sense that you don't control the narrative,
Speaker 2: you are a subject to a lot of variables production
Speaker 2: that the third the edit, My god, the edit, right,
Speaker 2: So there was a lot of risk associated with that. Now,
Speaker 2: did I have a little ego going into with Michelle,
Speaker 2: knowing that I wasn't new to television, knowing that I had,
Speaker 2: you know, a ten plus year background as a television
Speaker 2: journalist and a news anchor, and this, that and the
Speaker 2: the I probably had a little overconfidence to be vulnerable
Speaker 2: that I felt that they're not gonna be able to outsmart.
Speaker 3: Me or play me.
Speaker 2: Right right, And you know, I guess the way that
Speaker 2: plane landed is still up for debate. The reality is,
Speaker 2: there were some things I was able to navigate better
Speaker 2: than some, maybe better than most. But were there also
Speaker 2: aspects of the final products on the show that were
Speaker 2: so limiting in its portrayal of who I am, Who
Speaker 2: I am as a woman, who I am as a
Speaker 2: black woman, who I am as a friend, I am
Speaker 2: as a daughter. Yeah, and that was unfortunate. It was unfortunate.
Speaker 2: Then what could have been such an incredible platform, an
Speaker 2: incredible opportunity, not just for me, Michelle, but for the network,
Speaker 2: for the franchise, you know, to kind of rehabilitate a
Speaker 2: narrative that said, the child just a bunch of old,
Speaker 2: stale white.
Speaker 3: Women that don't know nothing and don't represent New York.
Speaker 2: I created my arrival on that show created an opportunity
Speaker 2: to challenge and flip and recreate that.
Speaker 3: But unfortunately the pieces weren't there.
Speaker 2: The castmakers, their production really didn't know how to culture.
Speaker 2: There was a lack of cultural competency on the part
Speaker 2: of production, which I've been very vocal about. But there's
Speaker 2: always good news, right, So the good news is my life,
Speaker 2: my career, my bag continue. And also Real Housewives of
Speaker 2: New York has a new era. Now there's a brand
Speaker 2: new cast of women that are Afro Latina, that Somalian,
Speaker 2: that are Jewish, that are Indian, that look like that
Speaker 2: are queer, you know, that are diverse in ways that
Speaker 2: are very important. And I'm very proud of those ladies,
Speaker 2: and I'm very excited for that new era. But I
Speaker 2: think the lesson there, Michelle, is when you don't make space.
Speaker 2: Let's go back to space for a minute. When you
Speaker 2: refuse to make the space for the new and the whole,
Speaker 2: you will be put out to pasture.
Speaker 3: Period.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw there were clips. Well, I saw a
Speaker 1: clip of Tamar Braxton responding to something that Ninni Leeks
Speaker 1: was saying, basically about how reality shows or networks don't
Speaker 1: let black women shine, and she feels like if they
Speaker 1: did that they could be as big as the Kardashians.
Speaker 1: Was that your experience or in general, do you feel
Speaker 1: that how I guess black women are portrayed on reality
Speaker 1: TV or the support is kind of not given, even
Speaker 1: from a promotional advertisement. You know that maybe other counterparts get.
Speaker 2: My experience would have to validate that that black women
Speaker 2: are expected to be regulated to sidekick behavior. Yeah, I do, OK,
Speaker 2: especially in my case where I was joining a white cast.
Speaker 2: You know, so I was joining a white cast. We
Speaker 2: see the brilliant, the beautiful, the magnificent Garcelle Bouvet having
Speaker 2: joined a white cast on Beverly Hills Housewife, and I want.
Speaker 3: It because people's memories get real short.
Speaker 2: Michelle, I think we see garcel In going into her
Speaker 2: fourth season as the shining superstar she always was. When
Speaker 2: you own for Garcelles first season on Beverly Hills Housewives,
Speaker 2: want people to really think about that first season. There
Speaker 2: was a lot of hostility towards Garcel that first season,
Speaker 2: there was a lot of trying to regulate her to sidekick.
Speaker 2: There was a lot of when you don't pay your bills,
Speaker 2: but you didn't do that. There was a lot of
Speaker 2: that little side stuff, you know, and it was only
Speaker 2: through Garcell, you know, coming back a year after year
Speaker 2: after year being you know, really forcing them to respect
Speaker 2: between that she is uh huh uh huh uh huh.
Speaker 2: So that's what I would say. I would say, the
Speaker 2: Niinees not lying. I think it's I think it's very
Speaker 2: important to say that public lee, Michelle. I think that
Speaker 2: for whatever you think of Niini Leaks in terms of
Speaker 2: her as a housewife or her character or whatever, that
Speaker 2: is what I can tell you when she speaks about
Speaker 2: the treat the systemic treatment of black women in reality television,
Speaker 2: Niinnie Leaks is not lying period.
Speaker 1: I'm with you.
Speaker 2: I think I just want to say that's important, Michelle,
Speaker 2: because people like to conflate, Well, this is what I
Speaker 2: think of Niini after watching her on Housewives, and so
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be skeptical of this part of her argument.
Speaker 2: I want people to put that on a shelf. And
Speaker 2: one of the things that I think is important that
Speaker 2: I do as a lawyer, is you got to extract
Speaker 2: the emotion, right, We got to say, this is not
Speaker 2: about how I feel about you, This is not what
Speaker 2: I think about you.
Speaker 3: This is around the facts that are presented.
Speaker 1: Just facts, not emotions, not emotions, just the facts.
Speaker 2: So when we look at the facts around what Nini
Speaker 2: was required, not just any black women in reality television
Speaker 2: are required to do, Michelle, and the postures in which
Speaker 2: we are expected to play and the consequences of when
Speaker 2: we don't adhere to those subordinate, regulated spaces. They are inconsistent,
Speaker 2: Michelle Williams with the experiences of our white counterparts. That's
Speaker 2: the only part of this part that matters.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, we get end it right here, probably gonna
Speaker 2: get a couple headlines for us.
Speaker 1: Yeah know, were gonna end it right here. As of now,
Speaker 1: my podcast is not the spicy place because I know
Speaker 1: that I don't ask guests messy questions or I don't
Speaker 1: be nosy and just trying to be disrespectful. But it
Speaker 1: was a real question seeing that what she was just saying,
Speaker 1: and just you saying making space and how we always
Speaker 1: have to go into environments make space or there were
Speaker 1: two words assertive versus aggressive, and I will never forget
Speaker 1: someone telling someone it was a white woman told someone
Speaker 1: that I was very aggressive, and I.
Speaker 2: Was like, you, I mean, I'm not expressing to know you,
Speaker 2: miss Michelle, but from everything I've seen of you over
Speaker 2: the past, I don't know, almost twenty years of you
Speaker 2: being in the very national spotlight, that would be far
Speaker 2: from the verbiage that.
Speaker 3: I would use. That's interesting as pressive was the word.
Speaker 1: And I was like, I voiced a need or a
Speaker 1: desire in a business deal type situation, that's it. And
Speaker 1: I thought I was being assertive. I wanted to stand
Speaker 1: in what I felt like. I needed what I felt
Speaker 1: like I do not even necessarily deserved, but I need this.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I was called aggressive. I was called aggressive.
Speaker 2: It's interesting when you say, when you tell that story,
Speaker 2: it makes me think about probably about ten or fifteen
Speaker 2: years ago, a woman named Cheryl Samberg wrote a book
Speaker 2: called Lean In Right. Yes remember this, And Cheryl Samberg
Speaker 2: is a very famous, very successful, white presenting Jewish woman
Speaker 2: who ran things at Facebook. I think she might still
Speaker 2: slash meta And the whole world celebrated that, remember that, Michelle.
Speaker 2: Everybody everybody in America, all the women, all the companies,
Speaker 2: everybody said, this is what women need to do right.
Speaker 2: Women need to lean in, women need to take up space,
Speaker 2: women need to advocate for themselves. Women need to say
Speaker 2: what they need and mean what they say right.
Speaker 3: And everybody applauded that. But oh, when black women do it,
Speaker 3: isn't it interesting, Michelle?
Speaker 2: How it is rejected, It is undermined, and it is demonized,
Speaker 2: and it is dismissed in a way that when our
Speaker 2: white female counterparts do the exact same thing, they are
Speaker 2: celebrated and they are.
Speaker 1: Rewarded, celebrated for asking and demanding what they feel they
Speaker 1: need in a business situation. But that definitely, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say it, shut my mouth, but it definitely I took note,
Speaker 1: like from here on now when you start getting more
Speaker 1: mature in business, because you know, we come from an
Speaker 1: era of we had a manager that could negotiate. All
Speaker 1: we have to do is show up with her, show up,
Speaker 1: be the be the talent, be the talent, Be the talent.
Speaker 1: But then when you're on the other side of the
Speaker 1: table as more than just the talent, and you start
Speaker 1: having to advocate and speak up for yourself. I definitely
Speaker 1: that was definitely an awakening for me, But it has
Speaker 1: not stopped me from you know, just you just got
Speaker 1: to keep going. The right people know, the right people know.
Speaker 1: It was just a possibility that that woman could have
Speaker 1: been I don't know, I don't want to say the
Speaker 1: word intimidated. Maybe it rattled some insecurity or something in her.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm gonna go with. The grace and me
Speaker 1: is gonna go with it. Must have rattled, it rattled
Speaker 1: something in her. Speaking of your time on Real Housewives,
Speaker 1: you had expressed an interest in motherhood, and you were
Speaker 1: recently on a podcast called Surface Level and you shared
Speaker 1: that you would be undergoing an embryo transfer this fall.
Speaker 2: Yes, my cheeks are hurting because I'm smiling so big
Speaker 2: because I'm so This is probably the only thing in
Speaker 2: the speaking of rattle this topic, Michelle, This pending motherhood
Speaker 2: journey is the only thing.
Speaker 3: That gives me nerves.
Speaker 1: That gives me nerves because there's so many black women,
Speaker 1: yeah right, that I feel like, who are ready to
Speaker 1: go on this journey alone? And when I say alone,
Speaker 1: they're not going to go to the traditional route waiting
Speaker 1: for marriage, right, you know, before they decide to conceive.
Speaker 1: I had even gotten the question. I mean, you were
Speaker 1: already being the strength to move forward with such a
Speaker 1: life changing decision unpacked some of it. Sure.
Speaker 2: Sure, So let's talk about being alone, because I think
Speaker 2: that is where it sounds and can be very scary
Speaker 2: for people listening. The good news is, while I will
Speaker 2: not be romantically partnered, Michelle, unless God knows something I
Speaker 2: don't know, I will not be alone right now. It's
Speaker 2: very important I think that anybody even thinking about this
Speaker 2: journey of single motherhood by choices kind of the phrasing
Speaker 2: that you build your community, and you're not gonna build
Speaker 2: from the ground up, right, These are going to be
Speaker 2: the women and men and friends and family and colleagues
Speaker 2: that are already in your orbit. I'm an only child, Michelle.
Speaker 2: I have a single mother, so my family has always
Speaker 2: been very small. So I'm always hey, I'm not about
Speaker 2: sense college, law school work, living in LA I've lived
Speaker 2: in New York, I've lived in New Orleans, I've lived
Speaker 2: in Charlotte. I have community, I have chosen family, and
Speaker 2: so this little baby that God willing I'll bring into
Speaker 2: the world will have extensive family by virtue of that right,
Speaker 2: So I want people to start with that pramise.
Speaker 3: So, yes, I'm a single I'll be a single mom, but.
Speaker 2: I won't be alone, and I think that's important for
Speaker 2: people to distinguish the rest of it. You know, Listen,
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson said it, if you cannot feed the baby,
Speaker 2: don't have the baby. So for having financial strategy around this,
Speaker 2: I'm being funny, but I'm being real, right, it's important.
Speaker 2: I think that when you start talking about child rearing,
Speaker 2: especially for a woman. I'll be forty in a matter
Speaker 2: of days. It's very important, it's right, and I'm very
Speaker 2: excited about it.
Speaker 3: Child that's all that acucation.
Speaker 2: It's very important that one of the benefits of waiting
Speaker 2: to pursue motherhood later in life is I'm more financially
Speaker 2: stable than I've ever been. Michelle on my first property
Speaker 2: here in New York last summer, congratulations, thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: So it's like there's some fiscal and kind of structural
Speaker 2: pieces to the puzzle that are now in place that
Speaker 2: were not in place in my case twenties, in the
Speaker 2: early thirties.
Speaker 3: They just weren't there for whatever reasons.
Speaker 2: So I do feel equipped and excited and positioned to
Speaker 2: be able to hopefully offer this little person a really
Speaker 2: beautiful and impactful and loving life.
Speaker 1: Wow, congratulations on the choice and the embryo transfer, which
Speaker 1: we know it includes so much, you know, the hormone
Speaker 1: therapy treatment and all that good stuff. So us women
Speaker 1: that are in our forties over forties, you know it
Speaker 1: is not too late, you know, to make that choice.
Speaker 1: So please if you can, you know, freeze your eggs
Speaker 1: if that is a choice that you want to make.
Speaker 1: And once you have freeze your eggs and you decide, okay,
Speaker 1: you want to get the egg and get get it
Speaker 1: fertilized because it's got to be fertilized before you could
Speaker 1: transfer it, you know, do the embryo transfer. Did you
Speaker 1: get anybody in your life that was like ebity, ma'am,
Speaker 1: what are you doing? And you just smack them?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes, I had a couple people in my life, mostly women,
Speaker 2: actually most of some of my female friends, because they
Speaker 2: were just projecting their fears Michelle right like they were
Speaker 2: just like, eh, are you sure by yourself?
Speaker 3: Say I could, and then they would say it.
Speaker 2: They were telling themselves, I could never do that, I
Speaker 2: could never go.
Speaker 3: Through that alone.
Speaker 2: And I don't think this is for every woman, Michelle.
Speaker 2: Let me be very clear, I am not at all
Speaker 2: suggesting that this is the new normal, that this is
Speaker 2: the revised black family model. I am very clear and
Speaker 2: believing personally that a dual parent household is advantageous for
Speaker 2: all children, and especially for Black children.
Speaker 3: I believe in that.
Speaker 2: And also I believe in the miracles of modern science.
Speaker 2: And as somebody who has been married and divorced in
Speaker 2: my late twenties, as somebody who was engaged and in
Speaker 2: a long term relationship in my to late thirties, you
Speaker 2: know who ended that engagement because of very legitimate reasons.
Speaker 2: I find myself on the custal forty, Michelle, with still
Speaker 2: a desire to be a biological mother. I really do,
Speaker 2: and I did. I'm so glad you brought broke down
Speaker 2: the fertility aspect. So I froze eggs earlier. I froze
Speaker 2: eggs at thirty four that I never intended to use.
Speaker 2: By the way, I was very anivalent about motherhood at
Speaker 2: that time because I didn't have my stuff in order child,
Speaker 2: I didn't trust that I could really provide the life
Speaker 2: that my child would deserve. And until I got all
Speaker 2: of that together we were going to have we weren't
Speaker 2: go have this conversation. So it just so happened that,
Speaker 2: you know, shows fell in place, book deals fell in place.
Speaker 2: Just God kind of opened up my calling in this
Speaker 2: world in a way that I now feel I can
Speaker 2: really pursue motherhood in a way that's going to serve
Speaker 2: this child. With all of that said, yes, that's when
Speaker 2: I went and explore a cryro bank, also known as
Speaker 2: a sperm donor. I use California cryro Bank, which is phenomenal.
Speaker 2: They work with my fertility clinic here very well. I
Speaker 2: finding sperm donor was a lot of fun. That's a
Speaker 2: whole nother conversation.
Speaker 3: But I was.
Speaker 2: Able to find a black male sperm donor, which is
Speaker 2: not the easiest thing in the world. But I found
Speaker 2: a great one, and I fertilized those little eggs of
Speaker 2: mine and I have some embryos hints my transfer this fall.
Speaker 1: Okay, So remember when Brett and Judy were doing their
Speaker 1: their thing and they said the same thing that it
Speaker 1: is not there aren't a lot of black male sperm donors.
Speaker 1: Now do you know the sperm donor? Is he anonymous?
Speaker 3: So he is anonymous?
Speaker 2: But when my child becomes eighteen, we will get all
Speaker 2: of his contact information.
Speaker 3: So that's a I paid. I paid more money, Michelle
Speaker 3: to have that route.
Speaker 2: So there are some donors that require an anonymity their
Speaker 2: entire life. And then there's this new category of donors
Speaker 2: that're like, hey, once the child support stuff is done,
Speaker 2: once the child is eighteen, No, that's the real team.
Speaker 2: That's the real team, Michelle, that's the real team. So
Speaker 2: they're like, once I'm once, I don't owe nothing else.
Speaker 3: Come find me, Let's be friends. Let's see if there's
Speaker 3: an opportunity for relation.
Speaker 2: So that was the only kind of donor I was
Speaker 2: gonna select because I do think it's very important that
Speaker 2: kids be able to know both sides of their identity.
Speaker 2: And I say that as a young woman who did
Speaker 2: not know who my father was until two years ago.
Speaker 3: I wasn't gonna that's to my child.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I had to go on a genetic investigation child.
Speaker 2: It was all of that, but I found out and
Speaker 2: it made a difference for me, Michelle, it really did.
Speaker 2: It made me feel more legitimate, and it made me
Speaker 2: feel more whole. So I want to offer that to
Speaker 2: my child. And so at eighteen, we're gonna get daddy's info.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna get a st info. Now obviously he
Speaker 1: don't have to pay no child support because he is
Speaker 1: He's just okay. Now, you just dropped something to say
Speaker 1: you found your birth father two years ago. How was that?
Speaker 1: Are y'all in relationship or did you make a decision
Speaker 1: to say I found you and that's okay? I don't
Speaker 1: want relationship, so I.
Speaker 2: Made a decision to say I found you. I made
Speaker 2: a decision, Michelle, to say I would like to explore
Speaker 2: the possibility of a relationship and now comes to not
Speaker 2: so happy ending that was not something my biological father
Speaker 2: was interested.
Speaker 3: In at this point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, I get really intelligent here and I have
Speaker 2: to shut down emotionally because it's really difficult.
Speaker 1: Right. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2: Thank you for that, Michelle, And listen, you know I
Speaker 2: know everything happens for a reason. I know God moves
Speaker 2: in his timing divinely, so I will not question this.
Speaker 2: But yes, my father has a beautiful family that he
Speaker 2: has raised that he is still you know, that's his family.
Speaker 2: And to get a call after thirty eight years of
Speaker 2: an addition to that family that puts a wrinkle in
Speaker 2: the situation. It's difficult for everybody. So I have to
Speaker 2: accept that these are my circumstances. And I'm still very
Speaker 2: grateful that I went on the journey to find him, Michelle.
Speaker 2: I'm still very grateful that I know what my father
Speaker 2: looks like, I know what his voice sounds like.
Speaker 3: I know who my sisters are.
Speaker 2: I know who I now have a paternal legacy that
Speaker 2: I never have.
Speaker 1: I didn't mean to go down this, but are the
Speaker 1: sisters Are they willing to have relationship?
Speaker 3: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm like, when you open up that whole yeah,
Speaker 1: my heart is breaking for you. Not that you asked,
Speaker 1: but I'm sorry. I just you know, No, it's a lot.
Speaker 2: And I wasn't gonna come on your show, Michelle, which
Speaker 2: is so rooted in vulnerability and mental health, and you know,
Speaker 2: I let me be very clear, I have a tremendous therapist, Michelle,
Speaker 2: who has been with me every step of the way
Speaker 2: in this journey. So that's all all helpful. Yes, my
Speaker 2: sisters are beautiful. I have met my sisters. They are
Speaker 2: very supportive of me. They're supportive of my motherhood journey.
Speaker 2: My baby will know my sisters, their aunt and that's
Speaker 2: a blessing.
Speaker 3: So you know, I want to be clear in that.
Speaker 2: You know, all endings are not storybook, but they're the
Speaker 2: endings we're supposed to have.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, thank you for sharing. Checking in is
Speaker 1: a safe space, you know, where people can share stuff
Speaker 1: that we didn't even plan on sharing. And so I'm
Speaker 1: thankful that you shared that information because I know somebody
Speaker 1: that is listening to this has or they are in
Speaker 1: they have the same story. And again to anybody listening,
Speaker 1: I am sorry, and my heart goes out to you.
Speaker 1: But then this is where I put my spiritual head on.
Speaker 1: You know, I want to be praying on that, you know. Please,
Speaker 1: I don't care how much therapy we have. Yes, I
Speaker 1: don't care how old we get and how successful we get,
Speaker 1: but we still want that mother's love, not maybe not
Speaker 1: their approval, but their love. We want that fatherly touch,
Speaker 1: that phone call. Yes, So I'm gonna mind my business.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take that. I'm gonna take that to the
Speaker 1: Lord in prayer.
Speaker 3: It's to the Lord in prayer.
Speaker 2: I know that I'm beside you in the in the
Speaker 2: prayer journey, Michell, because I do believe that nothing is
Speaker 2: final as long as you know, God has his hand
Speaker 2: on it. So I do believe in that. I know that,
Speaker 2: and we'll go from there.
Speaker 1: We will go from there. One last question. I'm excited
Speaker 1: about everything you got going on, and please, I'm grateful
Speaker 1: that you're gonna continue to grace our television screens. I know,
Speaker 1: I see you on the Grio and and everything you're
Speaker 1: doing the book, but you also have equal justice with
Speaker 1: Judge Ebony K. Williams. I love I love all the
Speaker 1: legal shows. I'm excited about it, and I'm excited about
Speaker 1: what I believe. Okay, how you are gonna make your
Speaker 1: show different from the others. I'm sure you walked into
Speaker 1: before you got that when you were in the deal process, Like,
Speaker 1: what were you saying to yourself, this is how we're
Speaker 1: gonna make ours different.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad you asked about the deal process because
Speaker 2: that's important and we touched on it too when you
Speaker 2: talked about your story when you go from just being
Speaker 2: talent to executive producing, being a part of the business aspect,
Speaker 2: it was.
Speaker 3: First of all, I had to have a.
Speaker 2: Level of editorial control, Michelle, so being an executive producer
Speaker 2: on the show was paramount and thankfully I'm partnering with
Speaker 2: the best in the business when it comes to daytime
Speaker 2: Core TV.
Speaker 3: Baby mister Byron Allen.
Speaker 2: Come on, yeah, he really is the best, and I'm
Speaker 2: so grateful that he entrusts me to help implement this
Speaker 2: show through my vision, and that's what we're doing. We
Speaker 2: built it out everything from like small details, Michelle, even
Speaker 2: like the black lace on the cuff of my judges role,
Speaker 2: but also the cases that we're hearing.
Speaker 3: You know, these are gonna be litigants. Just be prepared.
Speaker 2: Everybody needs to be ready. It is a new day
Speaker 2: and daytime court. We are honoring the legacy of Judge
Speaker 2: Matthis Judge Judy People's Court. You go feel those vibes, right,
Speaker 2: We're not reinventing the wheel that everything everybody loves about
Speaker 2: courts shows, Michelle, are going to be there and then
Speaker 2: some because it's coming from your girl, Auntie, It's coming
Speaker 2: from my lens. I'm bringing the lens of black culture.
Speaker 2: I'm bringing the lens of a Southern born woman who's
Speaker 2: very proud, but who's been in Harlem for the last
Speaker 2: ten years, but who had a pit stop in la
Speaker 2: for five. So it's just it's going to feel like
Speaker 2: a show for everybody, and it's going to feel like
Speaker 2: a show that this is the show that you didn't ask.
Speaker 3: For, that you didn't know you needed, that is this show?
Speaker 1: Come on? When does it premiere? Noon?
Speaker 3: So we're looking at all premiere.
Speaker 2: I don't want to put the date out there and
Speaker 2: get people too excited, but soon and very soon, follow
Speaker 2: my instagrale, you will get a premiere day, very soon,
Speaker 2: I'm talking about with it in weeks.
Speaker 1: Wow, I feel like we've touched on so much in
Speaker 1: our conversation, super super, super incredible to have you with
Speaker 1: us and checking in and sharing parts of your heart.
Speaker 1: That again, it was not planned, y'all, but that's the
Speaker 1: good thing. But when people come to check in, you
Speaker 1: never know what we're going to really really tap into.
Speaker 1: So Ebanie, thank you. We're excited to follow you some
Speaker 1: more and your journey. Thank you for taking some time
Speaker 1: to check it in because I again, y'all, this Montgomery
Speaker 1: situation is going on and she's an attorney, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure everybody in the mom is like, come on our show,
Speaker 1: come on our show. So thank you that I feel
Speaker 1: like we were one of the first to have you on.
Speaker 3: You all are you are.
Speaker 2: Thank you for creating checking in as a spec and
Speaker 2: my vulnerability is a result of your energy, right Like
Speaker 2: I do interviews all day long, it's my job. But
Speaker 2: the ability to truly be open and share and trust
Speaker 2: the context of the share is a result of you,
Speaker 2: my dear. That is a result of your love, your
Speaker 2: big heartedness, and your tenderness.
Speaker 3: So thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: Thank you again and again. You're a welcome anytime, We'll
Speaker 1: be in touch and we'd love to have you back
Speaker 1: on when you can. Gorgeous to see you again. Good bye.
Speaker 1: Oh mg, you never know what people go through. Yes,
Speaker 1: Ebony seems like she has this larger than life personality.
Speaker 1: She is a larger than life personality, very strong, very direct,
Speaker 1: very smart, and to know personally what she has been
Speaker 1: going through even as she said, you know, finding her
Speaker 1: biological father and finding that the biological father is too
Speaker 1: overwhelmed to have a personal relationship with his daughter, Ebony.
Speaker 1: My heart is breaking, oh ool child, but she's keeping going.
Speaker 1: I mean, what do you do to me? It just rejection.
Speaker 1: I don't care how old you are and how successful
Speaker 1: you are. Rejection sucks, It stings, It does not feel good. Yes,
Speaker 1: you can find out later that rejection is protection. Yes,
Speaker 1: you'll find out later that while you were rejected, you
Speaker 1: were just simply being redirected. But let's not act like
Speaker 1: being rejected does not hurt. It hurts. My heart breaks
Speaker 1: for those that are experiencing rejection. I experience some rejection
Speaker 1: this summer, relationally, not romantically. But there's some folks that
Speaker 1: you know, I had been building relationship with and I
Speaker 1: have been feeling that sting of rejection. Now at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, it's probably not as I don't
Speaker 1: want to minimize or dismiss my feelings, but to desire
Speaker 1: a father's love, a father's touch, the protection of your father,
Speaker 1: and to not have that, Yeah, my heart is breaking,
Speaker 1: all right. But guess what, you are still enough regardless
Speaker 1: of who rejected you. You are enough. God's got some
Speaker 1: people for you. He's got people I know there are
Speaker 1: people who can never replace the desire for you to
Speaker 1: have a father or even a mother. Friends. I pray
Speaker 1: that God sends people your way who love you for
Speaker 1: you with all your flaws. Yep, it's on the way.
Speaker 1: I love you. Checking In with Michelle Williams is a
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and the black effect. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.