WEBVTT - QLS Classic: Tom Silverman 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:04.240 Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:09.840 episode was produced by the team at Pandora. What Up 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:10.559 It's Unpaid Bill. 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:12.879 On this classic episode of Quest Love Supreme, we travel 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:15.640 back to March eight, twenty seventeen. Tom Zila, the founder 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:17.800 of Tommy Boy Records, tells Team Supreme about some of 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:20.279 the legendary music this company put out and creating a 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:23.520 pathway to make sampling more affordable for producers. Listeners can 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:25.960 also check out our twenty twenty two two part interview 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:27.960 with former Tommy Boy president Monica Lynch. 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:29.920 Enjoyed all here on uls. 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:49.600 Supremo, Supremo, Suprema So Supremo Ro, Supremo, Sun Sun Supremo 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:53.680 Roll So Supreme Sun Supremo Ro. 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:58.160 This is your cult leader. Yes you are my sheep. Yes, 0:00:58.600 --> 0:00:59.560 Tommy's in the place. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:09.640 Yeah, Supremo Roll Call, Suprema Son Supremo Ro. 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:14.800 The name. Yeah, here's an example. Yeah, let me clear 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:15.400 my throat. 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:25.600 Yeah, but not no samples Supremo Suprema s RO. 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:30.880 Good morning Tommy from Tommy Boy. Yeah, my name is 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:36.720 Sugar from Bagel Boys. 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:41.920 Supremo, Supremo, Son, Son Supremo. 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:46.800 Roll pay Bill, Yeah, Steve say, oy, Yeah, about to 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:47.480 throw down. 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:59.200 Yeah, Tommy Ro Supremo. So you guys, Supremo Bill is frantic? 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:04.240 Yeah, looking through my jacket. Yeah, must have misplaced on 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:05.400 my sex packets. 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:14.320 Roll Supremo Son Supremo, roll call Suprema Son Supremo. 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:19.000 Role Yeah girl, Yeah, and I'm too excited. 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:21.560 Yeah world Ro. 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:29.880 Supremo Supremo, roll call Supremo some some Supremo role ca. 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:37.720 Yeah, I'm Tommy boy. Yeah, I wasn't prepared for this annoying. 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:47.120 Supreme Supremo Rome Suprema Son Son Supremo, Roll call Supremo 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:53.360 Son Son Supremo, Roll call Suprema some Supremo ro. 0:02:55.760 --> 0:03:02.560 He said, come on, it's hard to promise things, ladies 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:08.480 and gentlemen. Uh, and welcome to you another edition of 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:11.679 course Love Supreme. How are you guys doing, say a 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:15.400 little Team Supreme? Yes, everybody, mama, okay. 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:17.280 Uh. 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:24.400 I have to say that our guest, in my opinion, 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:32.160 probably on paper, his his label probably spoke to me 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:37.320 more than because usually when you think of the consummate 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:40.200 hip hop label or the consumant label, of course, the 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:42.760 D word is always the first thing that comes to mind. 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:49.440 But uh, as far as pushing the boundary and innovations 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:53.600 and one of the greatest logos of all ties, one 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:58.320 of the most boy logos of all time. I have 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:02.480 to say that that for me, Tommy Boy Records kind 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:07.160 of pushes the envelope just a little bit further as 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:11.840 far as innovation and trying out new ideas. And that's 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:15.400 what I feel. Our our steam guest today is about 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:20.960 lady and gentlemen. Please give it up for mister Tommy Silverman. Yeah, 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.640 thank you. How are you today? 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:28.600 Very good? Very good? Starting my fast Day one might 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:30.599 as well good day to start it. Wednesday? 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:32.719 You're right, you're right. How long are you going for? 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.840 How long it's humpty day? You know it's Wednesday. How 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:38.760 long do you go for? I don't know. I you know, 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.960 I as long as I still feel good. I'm drinking 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:44.080 water that you know. I'm starting out drinking water. We'll 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:46.479 see if I go to fancy restaurant, I might have 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:47.560 to eat. We'll have to see. 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:49.080 But this is day one. 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:50.760 Yeah, this is day one. Man. 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:52.040 The crank is going to start. 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.200 But it gets good. Yeah, you're turning about the detox, right, Yeah, 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:58.000 that's going to be pretty clean. 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:03.760 I feel for you make well, okay, I know there's 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:05.680 a lot that I don't know about you, but I 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:07.720 mean I know of your your general story, but I 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:13.360 do know that your love and your appreciation for music 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:15.359 runs deep. 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:17.719 So yeah, starting with your dad. 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.760 That's that's how we first met. I have to say 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:26.520 that I didn't think that anyone in the current music 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:31.920 world even really knew of the do wop world or 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:34.400 any of that stuff. And that's the first thing you 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:36.840 came up to me and said, like, I know your 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:40.359 dad is I was really so am I to believe 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.400 that your first passion of music was duop. 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:46.120 No. But you know, I discovered duop just like you 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.680 talk about how you discover things through sampling and that, 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.120 you know, I hear heard new things and I went 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:53.960 back and discovered roots, and so doop was a route 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:56.520 that I discovered. I was way way too young to 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.160 know doop, but I discovered it, you know, when it's 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.120 sort of the shinnan nah kind of a thing came 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:04.760 around and I wanted to know. Yeah, and you know, 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:06.920 I had Lee Andrews and the Heart's album, which, like 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.200 most people only know the singles, right, you know, I 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:12.719 got really deep into it and it's definitely one of 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:16.120 the top five or ten do op artists of all time. 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:18.839 And then to find that you actually played with those 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:21.839 guys in the garden when you were thirteen made me 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:24.680 have like a different kind of respect. I already respected, 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.440 of course hip hop and the people in the world, 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.719 you know, more than almost everyone else. But then to 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:33.160 hear that you also had that was you know, because 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:36.080 I when I started hip hop and I was working 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.760 with Ben Bada in the Bronx in nineteen eighty, it 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:43.320 was the same corners that duop started from where hip 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:46.640 hop started, like literally the same streets in the same neighborhoods, 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:49.279 you know, the Belmont Avenue. There was the Italian section, 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:51.880 and there was the Black section, and there were kids 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:54.239 singing on every street corner, and it was the same 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:57.520 corners that kids plugged in, you know, their mixers, into 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.480 street polls and started. You know, it wasn't that far apart. 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.200 So I thought there was a relationship, and I you know, 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:06.400 I always search for that relationship, even to the point 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.480 of signing the Force MDS, which I thought was sort 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:10.280 of the synthesis of duop and hip hop. 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.920 So were you born into a musical family or a 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:15.360 musical collective family. 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:17.680 Creative but not musicough. My mom is an artist and 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:18.559 my dad is a writer. 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:20.640 Are you Are you born New York. 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:21.920 YA, Westchester, White Plains? 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.600 Okay, okay, So like what are your first musical experiences 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:31.559 at least. 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:30.600 Out early when I was Yeah, when I was like, 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:32.720 my dad was really into jazz and so you know, 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.320 he used to like play air saxophone to Coleman Hawkins 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:37.000 when I was like five years old, and those are 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:39.720 my earliest memories. And he used to play Miles Davis, 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:43.080 early Miles Davis records and he had like a big 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:45.920 high fight. This was way before stereo and built into 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.000 the wall and the house that we lived in, and 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.880 you know, and he was you know, they played Billie 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.600 Holliday and they were really into that kind of music. 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:55.080 So that was the music that I grew up with 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:56.200 at the time. 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:00.560 So you weren't listening to the The Battle, Dave Crockett 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:02.600 or anything that Middle America was into. 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:05.480 You guys were except for show tunes because that you know, 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:08.360 you know, that was the mut that had to be 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:10.960 in there too. That was a combination of like of 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:15.040 bebop and show tunes. It's a weird combination. But yeah, 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:17.680 that's what played in my house before I was had 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:21.160 my own musical exploration, which probably started in sixty five 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:23.640 or sixty six when I started buying my first records. 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:25.320 What was the first record you purchased? 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.880 Tommy James and the Schondell's Hanky Panky on Roulette, Ah 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:32.440 Roulette turned about forty fives? Yeah? 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:36.360 Yeah, okay, okay, So was it an everyday occurrence like 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:40.480 buying bubblegum or was you like buying for forty fives 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:41.720 and records? Like was that like? 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:43.680 Yeah? But it was expensive. I mean, you know, for 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:45.760 a little kid with you know, on a tiny allow, 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.640 how much were forty fives back competed? It was either 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:50.640 baseball cards or records? 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:52.640 You know, how much were forty fives back? 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.120 Now? Forty five is like sixty nine cents or something 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:57.280 like that, or maybe even forty nine cents if you 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:00.880 went to Corvette's, where would you go? I went to 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:02.640 the local store where I bought comic books, you know, 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.160 and they had records, some records on forty five's. 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.280 Okay, But was there a place in New York that 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:09.280 was like the Holy Mecha center of. 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:13.040 Not at that time, not at that time. I'm talking about, like, 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.160 you know, sixty five, sixty six, sixty seven. You know, 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:19.520 it's an interesting era too, because you know, then there 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:21.400 was New York radio then you know, it was all 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:23.160 I AM. There was no effort radio yet, so it 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.200 was ABC, MCA. Those were like the pop stations, and 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:28.440 then there was l I, B N r L, which 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.120 was the black stations, okay, you know, and I didn't 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.240 even find out about the black stations until I got 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:34.960 into junior high school. 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:39.960 So as far as your your foray into music, by 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:43.000 the time you started collecting, I mean, were you then 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:45.800 collecting the music of the time as far as your. 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.360 I was into blues and duops. Those were the things 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.559 that were now cast your friends. Totally nobody knew that's 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:54.360 what I wanted to do. But by the way, that 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:56.440 wasn't just about music. That was about the way I 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:58.440 dressed and the things I was into. I mean, I 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:00.240 used to get kicked out of school for wearing a 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.439 Lenen pin or you know, carrying Mao's Red Book to 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:05.719 school when I was in ninth grade and stuff. I 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:09.200 would wore Bush jackets with American flag upside down on 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:11.960 the back, which was like the signal for distressing. I 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:14.760 wrote the underground newspaper with another couple of guys in 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.520 my junior high school. You know, I was like, kind 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.360 of whatever it was, I was against it. So you 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:24.400 know I was a contra against the against the system 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:26.959 even in high school. Well, you know, I looked look 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:30.280 at everything that is and say what isn't you know? 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:32.720 What's missing? What's not you know? And so I try 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:35.000 I look at I invert everything and say, okay, what 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.360 are the opportunities for change? And kind of that may 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.440 be the reason why Tommy Boy and the D label 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.480 have a different philosophy. I was always looking to do 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.200 something nobody had ever done before. I wasn't looking to 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.120 have the biggest hit today. You know, I was looking 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.760 to do something, you know, where there was no competition. 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:55.840 I wasn't trying to trash the competition. I wanted to 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:56.319 be the first. 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:58.559 What makes a person want to do that? Because it 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.720 would have been so easy for you to just statisfied, 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:03.959 kind of blend in with the status quo and kind 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.839 of reap the benefits of the time and right off 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:08.760 into the sunset, Like what makes you? 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:12.080 I guess when I was a little kid, I wasn't 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.400 the fastest or the strongest. I get picked last in 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.199 the sports team. I wasn't the best looking, so I 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.079 didn't get invited to the party. So I had to say, sorry, 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:22.440 I guess we have to make my own world, you know. 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:24.480 And so I kind of had to reject the status 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:26.960 quot because the status quo rejected me. And by the way, 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:30.520 if you look at the entire world, everything that moves 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.000 society forward happens because people are rejected. 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:35.800 How many how many siblings do you? 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:39.280 I have two younger brothers, Okay, Oh you're the oldest. 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:40.679 I was going to say, were you the middle child 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:45.400 or the Okay? I was trying to get super over analytical. 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:49.400 And my brothers aren't. Aren't this way I see. So 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:51.440 I don't know if it's karma genetic or if it's 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:54.800 the results of behavioral rejection when I was younger, but 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:57.520 I think, you know, like if Gandhi hadn't got kicked 0:11:57.520 --> 0:11:59.680 off of train in South Africa, he wouldn't have gotten 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:02.680 to India and done what he did. You know, he 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.160 wouldn't even have thought about that, you know. But he 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.360 was seeing as colored in South Africa at the time, 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:11.200 and and he was going along. He'd gone to Oxford 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.920 or somewhere for law school, and he said, what's this about? 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:16.920 And when he became a reformer because of rejection, and 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.080 you you know, Jesus Christ, you know, you look at 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:23.080 everybody in history has been rejected. It's gone and gone 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:24.040 on to do great things. 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:27.520 So for me, so for you was music more. You're 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:32.040 you're calming, your your your your sanctuary. 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:36.080 Yeah, I was also an exploration, you know, like so 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.200 I was into the Rolling Stones when I was really young, 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:39.840 and then I got into all the blues artists that 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:43.640 influenced them. So I started buying you know, old blues 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:45.640 albums and learning about blues that way. 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:48.520 You know, it's easy now, especially with the with the 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.920 oncelot of the internet, to get information quick fast. But 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:58.240 you know, like if you're listening to uh, say, like 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:00.120 if you're listening to zep too, if you listen a 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:03.840 Whole Lot of Love or whatever, like who's there to 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:08.040 let you know about a Willie Dixon or Blind Lemon 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:09.040 Jefferson or. 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:11.360 So I'm looking at the liner notes of course, and 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:13.440 you know when you're watching you listen to the record 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:15.840 in your room, you're listening to the record on a 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:17.840 record player in your room. You have plenty of time 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:20.040 to read liner notes, and the liner notes are big 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:22.880 because records are big, and you can see that Spoonful 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.560 by Cream was written by Willie Dixon, so I had 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.360 to find out what else Willy Dixon did or whatever, 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:30.840 you know. And then I got crazy into Muddy Waters 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.280 because you know, his songs were covered by everybody else, 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:37.600 and so you know, then I you know, and then 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:40.280 I said, oh, well, he's playing a telecaster, so maybe 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.800 I should try to get a telecaster. So then I 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.120 learned to play guitar, and that was like, I try 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:46.720 to be like Albert King or whatever. 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.280 You know, So you initially wanted to start off as 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:50.240 a blues musician. 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:52.560 No, I just wanted to be a musician. And actually 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:54.680 Albert King played the least notes, so it was easiest 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:54.880 to do. 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.880 So no high school band experience, so you know, I. 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.280 Wasn't you know, as I said, I wasn't picked first 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:05.360 for anything. I was picked last for most things, so 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:07.960 you know, I wasn't getting it. I wasn't the most 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.520 popular kid. So you know, if I could be, you know, 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.040 a guitar player, maybe I could get laid someday, you know, 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:15.239 there was that possibility. 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.520 So by the time you're playing guitar, like, are we 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:20.520 talking about the seventies period or the. 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.960 No still sick? Oh well early maybe sixty to sixty 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.480 nine and seventy. Yeah, Okay, this is the advent of 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:33.040 FM radio and you know, psychedelic rock and stuff. 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:36.320 So once FM, what was that? Okay, so Zeppelin one 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.920 the entire side. Okay, So I need someone who was 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.080 there in real time to explain to me because I 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:46.440 always wanted to know. You know, a lot of people 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.680 when they explained to me the power of AM radio 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:52.560 listen to music, when their transition radios and all this stuff, 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.920 how magical it was, Like was it really that foreign? 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:01.800 Once FM high fidelity radio came into play, Like the 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.600 clarity of it all, Like, was it a revelation to you? 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:05.760 No, definitely not. 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.600 I mean, yes, I hear some people actually prefer the 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:13.560 lo fi AM radio station sound as opposed to which well, at. 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:18.160 The beginning, you know, AM radios were small. You know, 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:20.480 they're transistor radio, so you could almost put them in 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:22.800 your pocket. So that was the first portable music AM 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.720 radio and it was in the cars only AM. So 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:28.720 when FM came. They it wasn't in cars yet, it 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:32.320 wasn't in transistor radio. They didn't have AM FM transistor 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.880 radios for the first few years. So you know, it's 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:40.160 kind of probably like that HD channel now right. You know, 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:42.520 they exist all over the world, but nobody listens because 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:44.720 nobody even knows how to tune in, you know, so 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:46.880 you know, you had to you had to make it easy, 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.160 and it was hard. You know, you had to find 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.800 the stations, and everyone listened to the same station. So 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:58.160 w ABC was playing at one time Joni mitchell ty 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:01.520 Yellow Ribbon around the old I mean, the most wackist 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:08.680 mainstream kitty rock, and then they were playing Monosabongo Solamakosa 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.400 at the same time and a country record like behind 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:15.920 closed ABC. I think that Radio one in the UK 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:18.360 is a little bit like that. They play like diverse music, 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.800 you know, they would play like hip hop and rock 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.400 and all kinds of music and still do. So people 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.320 get exposed to more stuff, and as the band got 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:32.000 split and stations started to specialize, people gravitated toward one 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.520 kind of music as a way of sort of appreciating 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:37.720 that music but also avoiding every other kind of music. 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:41.400 So you're saying at Efen radio actually started the idea 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:43.880 of genres or segregating music. 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:48.280 Yeah, rock radio happened dead FM only, and you know, 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:50.520 people who listened to that only got rock, so they 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.000 didn't have to hear you know, Charlie rich anymore. So 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:56.240 now no more country influence, now, no more black influence. 0:16:56.640 --> 0:17:01.040 Everything was that, you know, you know, Richie Havens was 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:03.440 as black as it got, or the Chambers Brothers. You know, 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:05.359 it was the only kind of things that would get 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.800 played on those radio stations. So that began the segregation. 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:13.040 And that's why at the you know, for years Rolling 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.520 Stone magazine never had black people and never on the 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.000 cover or even writing about them, except for maybe Slide 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.440 because they played at Woodstock. Anyone, if you played on Woodstock, 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:23.359 you were allowed in the club. 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:26.200 You know, that was a wow. Okay, I never even 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:29.520 thought about that. I thought, you know, because the idea 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:32.320 of Eppen radio men playing like complete sides and playing 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:35.280 the full version of a particular song and that sort 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:37.280 of thing would have made it better. 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:39.200 But you know, well it did. I mean there were 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:41.439 great things about it, and the quality was better and 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:43.760 people talk to you more in a different way. They 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:46.360 weren't shouting at you as much. It was a more 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:48.399 laid back kind of a thing, you know. And then 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:49.960 I got when I went to college, I got involved 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.760 in college radio immediately and became the music director of 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:56.000 the college radio station Where'd you go Colby and Maine. 0:17:56.200 --> 0:18:00.720 Okay, so what was your vision for your college radio years? 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:05.040 Like? So, you know, I did a So initially I 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.520 start started doing my own radio station, and I did 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.240 a du op show, you know, cruising Tom's College of 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:13.920 Musical Knowledge every Sunday night. And then I started doing 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:17.440 a party show, you know, by seventy four and seventy five, 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:20.800 and I play Party Records, which was you know, mostly 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.159 R and B and funky records. I may have been 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:25.760 the first person in America to play Lady Marmalade. 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:29.840 Really yeah, okay, So because DJ culture really wasn't a 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.080 thing in seventy three seventy. 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:33.439 Four, it was just beginning. 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:37.200 How do you Okay, So take me to what your 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:43.480 rider is. In seventy three, DJing for a college like 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:45.560 are the idea of big speakers? 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:47.840 I mean, yeah, I mean you do this is radio DJ, 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:51.160 not live DJ. Oh Okay, live DJing didn't exist yet. 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:54.320 Like that, except maybe in cool Hair. It was happening, 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:56.720 you know, on Sedgwick, but there wasn't many other places. 0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:59.440 It was just starting there really at that point in time. 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.040 And so all just bands were still playing the music 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:02.560 of a day. 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.320 And yeah, and I was in a fraternity house and 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:06.959 I used to book the bands that would come in, 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:09.400 and they were blues bands mostly that's what I could get, 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:12.439 or disco bands. So in seventy five, disco started to 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.760 take off. And then Saturday Night Fever came out, So 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.359 disco started, and then Saturday Night Fever came out. So 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.280 I was doing my a disco radio show. And then 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:24.720 a club opened, A disco opened in Waterville, Maine, and 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:28.159 I started djaing there with a mixture I built myself 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:31.520 from radio shack parts. Didn't have queueing, but just like 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:35.080 two giant knobs, and I had like two record players. 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:38.439 They weren't really turntables, you know, like you know whatever. 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:40.760 I listening to the record before with headphones. 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:42.520 Well, I knew the record and I knew what it was. 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:48.080 But the first DJ, arguably the first American DJ in disco, 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:51.520 was David Mancuso, who just passed last year. At the 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:53.919 loft and he started playing in seventy two, and he 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:55.680 played every record to the end, and then he started 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.800 playing in another record, you know, And when disco started 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.239 around the world, that's the way happened. The idea of 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:05.639 mixing came much later. There weren't really mixers that had 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.480 queuing until probably seventy four. 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:11.480 Is that when you started the disco news while you 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:12.000 were in college? 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:17.840 Okay, so that started. We'll get there anyway. Yeah, so 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:22.280 I'm playing black music for a totally white college. 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:24.199 You know, there was one What were they accepting of it? 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:26.600 There was like eleven black people in the school and 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:28.959 there are only two black families or four black families 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:31.000 in the whole state of Maine, and maybe two record 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:32.440 stores in the whole state of Maine. 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:36.160 Was what was the outreach? Was it just the college or. 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:38.760 Like it reached. We had a ten watch signal, which 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:40.320 is what most colleges had, but we were on the 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:42.800 top of a hill, so we reached like forty miles. 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:44.440 It was pretty amaze, and there wasn't a lot of 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:47.679 other radio stations interfering up there. So we used to 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:49.960 get We used to do crazy stuff and get away 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.800 with crazy stuff on the radio station. It was pretty radical, 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:56.320 but you know, playing black music was pretty radical, and 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:58.240 people would always call up and request me to play 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.040 Derek and the Domino's Leila, and I tell no. In fact, 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:02.960 I was the music director. I took the record out 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:05.679 of the stacks and no one could play because you know, 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:08.000 the idea here is we're supposed to introduce new music, 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.879 and you know, both led Zeppelin and you know and 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.359 Derek and the Dominoes, those were the most played records 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:16.720 and it was so every show would play them every time, 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:18.640 so it was like top forty radio, and that wasn't 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:20.720 the concept. So I pulled them out of the stacks 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:21.560 so nobody could play. 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:24.239 Did you feel like it was arm rustling. I mean 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:28.280 I usually when I hear stories of taste makers, and 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:33.680 especially like with Tastemaker DJs, it's always a moment where 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:37.359 it's like I'm the almighty, all knowing expert of music 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:41.560 and you're going to love anything I play and there's 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:47.480 no resistance. But you know, today if I go to 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:50.359 a club and play like an unknown demo or something 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:52.600 that I think is like really incredible piece of music, 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:56.520 it's it's a struggle, like, you know, half a dance 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:58.520 floor might clear. I know we live in a different 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:04.040 time now, but I mean, but to really get people 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:08.040 to get into something and yeah that only you're into. 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.240 I have this discussion, by the way, with the founder 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:14.280 of Pandora on a regular basis, who's a friend of mine. 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:17.639 And mainly because you need to be able to play 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:21.760 an unfamiliar record enough times to make it familiar. And 0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:24.320 the greatest records of all time have to clear the 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:27.520 dance floor. The records that change the world, nobody will 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:30.359 understand the first time they hear them. It's impossible because 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:33.080 if it sounds like everything else, it's not moving anything forward. 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:36.240 So something that's different, no one's going to like, right, 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:38.760 you know. So you know, it was that way in 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:41.240 the early days of hip hop. You know, Black radio 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:44.080 didn't want to play hip hop records, but when they 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:46.320 did play it, the phones would light up. And then 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:49.920 they stopped using the phones as a way of identifying stuff, 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:52.600 and they did call out research to you know, middle 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:56.240 aged women, housewives at home who hated hip hop. And 0:22:56.320 --> 0:23:00.320 so there was always this negativity about hip hop at 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:00.879 black radio. 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:03.320 What about those eleven students that were at school with you, 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:05.960 like those eleven black students. Did they ever communicate with 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:08.280 you to or did they add to it? Like, did 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:09.200 you hear his record? 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:10.919 There was one guy who was a good friend of 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:14.439 mine who came from the Bronx who actually turned me 0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:16.520 onto a lot of stuff. He was actually a DJ 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:20.760 in seventy five in the Bronx and he was a 0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:22.760 year older, I think, and he ran track with me. 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:24.840 So I was I ran track and so that in 0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:27.440 high school, you know, being on the track team was 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:30.760 sixty percent black. In White Plains High school. You know, 0:23:30.800 --> 0:23:34.639 we had a silver medalist at the Mexican fist Olympics, 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:38.320 you know from you know, from our school, and he 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:44.199 was the slowest guy on the on the relay, the 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:48.720 quarter mile relay. He was the slowest guy. But he's 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:51.520 the only one who went to college. The other guys, 0:23:52.240 --> 0:23:55.280 you know, got drunk or did whatever they did. But 0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:59.240 you know, I remember joining the track team in ninth grade, 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:02.680 you know, and going to indoor tract the first time 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:07.440 and being like one of you know whatever twenty white 0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:10.639 guys on a team of one hundred people and getting 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:13.920 to hear the music and getting to know what they 0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:14.439 were into. 0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:16.960 And by the way, this was Black Power time. 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:19.879 You know, this is when you know, you know, the 0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:22.800 fifth pick was in everybody, at the back of everybody's head, 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:27.000 just the beginning of that era. And we had race 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:28.919 riots at White Plains High School and they took the 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:32.080 word planes off, so it's at White High School. And 0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:35.960 the Italians would come to school with baseball bats, and 0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:39.080 you know, the Blacks picketed, and you know, and I 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:43.080 was part of the resolution committee trying to you know, 0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:45.439 get people talking to each other. And it was just 0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:49.280 an amazing time to be alive, really because everything was changing, 0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:51.840 and you know, it was the beginning of that revolution 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:53.400 that made today possible. 0:24:58.240 --> 0:24:59.960 When did you graduate college. 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:02.600 I graduated high school in seventy two, college seventy six, 0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:05.240 and then I went to graduate school thinking that there 0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:07.680 was no way I could get into the music business. 0:25:07.720 --> 0:25:11.000 So I you know, continued my path, which was environmental science, 0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:14.600 and went to graduate school in environmental geology in Michigan 0:25:14.600 --> 0:25:15.320 and Kalamazoo. 0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:21.160 Was there any music as you do? That was out 0:25:21.200 --> 0:25:21.960 of nowhere? Yeah? 0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:24.320 Right? And then after two years there, just before I 0:25:24.320 --> 0:25:27.720 finished my masters, my old roommate from college called me 0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:30.000 who was working for cash Box, which was the competitor 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:31.920 or Billboard at the time, he was doing the R 0:25:31.960 --> 0:25:34.480 and B charts, and he said, hey, you're you know, 0:25:34.680 --> 0:25:37.440 you were way ahead of it. You were into disco 0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:40.120 back in seventy five. It's blowing up. It's a giant thing. 0:25:40.200 --> 0:25:43.280 This is after Saturday night fever. Let's start a tip sheet. 0:25:43.320 --> 0:25:46.520 Let's move to New York. And I had sent out 0:25:46.520 --> 0:25:48.480 two hundred resumes to try to get a job in 0:25:48.560 --> 0:25:52.040 water pollution and water quality and got two interviews and 0:25:52.200 --> 0:25:54.840 no job offers. That I was super depressed about it 0:25:54.960 --> 0:25:59.879 in the letters at that time, and I said I'm out, 0:26:00.160 --> 0:26:02.119 and I said, I left school and I went to 0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:05.399 New York. I set up this newsletter for DJs in 0:26:06.119 --> 0:26:09.600 nineteen seventy eight in New York City. And then the 0:26:09.600 --> 0:26:12.560 guy came moved quit cash Box and came and started 0:26:12.600 --> 0:26:14.119 it with me, and we started and we ran it 0:26:14.119 --> 0:26:16.080 out of our apartment, and then we got to know 0:26:16.160 --> 0:26:19.320 all of the DJs who were doing everything. So that 0:26:19.440 --> 0:26:20.560 sort of opened the door forward. 0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:22.359 Case it explain to me exactly you say it was 0:26:22.359 --> 0:26:24.160 a tipsy, exactly what does that mean. 0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:27.199 So it means that we talked. We talked to record 0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:29.920 pools who gave the records to the DJs and found 0:26:29.960 --> 0:26:33.000 out what was happening from them. We talked to record stores, 0:26:33.280 --> 0:26:36.720 we talked to radio stations when radio stations went disco. 0:26:37.119 --> 0:26:42.119 We talked to everybody, and we had like regional representatives 0:26:42.119 --> 0:26:44.119 from around the country in Canada that would tell us 0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:46.680 what was breaking, and we would talk to people about 0:26:46.720 --> 0:26:49.240 imports that were hot that were coming in. We did 0:26:49.280 --> 0:26:53.200 a top eighty chart that we compiled when we took 0:26:53.240 --> 0:26:57.040 everybody's information every week, and it was a checklist and 0:26:57.080 --> 0:26:59.000 it had the beats permitted of every record. And in 0:26:59.000 --> 0:27:02.159 those days beats it was really big because everything was 0:27:02.200 --> 0:27:04.679 records and nobody knew what beats per minute were of 0:27:04.720 --> 0:27:07.560 what was so they needed a mixing tool. So, because 0:27:07.600 --> 0:27:10.520 at this point, you know, mixing was starting to become 0:27:10.560 --> 0:27:12.359 really big, and in order to be great at mixing 0:27:12.400 --> 0:27:14.399 you had to know what the bpms were. There was 0:27:14.440 --> 0:27:17.080 a guy in Albany who had this disco Bible and 0:27:17.119 --> 0:27:20.280 he'd run these computer reports and send them out every 0:27:20.400 --> 0:27:23.639 once a month with all of the records bpms on them, 0:27:23.680 --> 0:27:26.000 and people would pay this guy like one hundred dollars 0:27:26.040 --> 0:27:27.800 a month for a subscription just to know what bus. 0:27:27.720 --> 0:27:32.080 He's still available, So y'all were kind of like a filter, 0:27:32.160 --> 0:27:35.960 I guess, like y'all told people what was that We. 0:27:36.280 --> 0:27:38.959 Did the research because in that point there was no Internet. 0:27:39.000 --> 0:27:41.080 There's no way else to find any information out and 0:27:41.119 --> 0:27:43.239 DJs needed to know what they didn't have, that they 0:27:43.280 --> 0:27:46.040 needed to get, what was coming up, what they needed 0:27:46.040 --> 0:27:48.080 to play, and what was really big beats, per minut 0:27:48.080 --> 0:27:51.520 it and things like that, and you know, records companies 0:27:51.560 --> 0:27:54.880 would advertise and record stores would advertise, and we used 0:27:54.880 --> 0:27:56.520 to sell it in record stores around New York like 0:27:56.600 --> 0:27:59.280 Rock and Soul down the Street here and a few 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:01.800 of the other record stores here, and we were you know, 0:28:01.840 --> 0:28:04.480 we got to like subscriptions and sales of over three 0:28:04.560 --> 0:28:08.400 thousand or four thousand copies. We were reaching about five 0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:13.040 thousand DJs by you know about you know, nineteen eighty 0:28:13.680 --> 0:28:14.280 or eighty one. 0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:17.720 How much for each addition to a buck. 0:28:17.560 --> 0:28:19.879 Or something like that, it was maybe a dollar fifty 0:28:19.960 --> 0:28:20.720 or something like that. 0:28:20.960 --> 0:28:23.719 They were the original too Dope boys, right, y'all were 0:28:23.720 --> 0:28:26.199 the first blog, right exactly it was. 0:28:26.240 --> 0:28:28.119 And it was like a newsletter. We had to print 0:28:28.160 --> 0:28:29.879 it and you know, and we type set it on 0:28:29.920 --> 0:28:32.120 a typewriter at first, and then we bought a type 0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:34.120 setting machine. We had all this stuff in the apartment 0:28:34.359 --> 0:28:35.560 and we were running it that way. 0:28:35.840 --> 0:28:40.840 It's interesting, so much work was it? Was it completely 0:28:41.000 --> 0:28:44.480 national or just like was international? Oh so you even 0:28:44.520 --> 0:28:48.200 took we took information from you two cample, two people. 0:28:48.280 --> 0:28:51.040 You're calling all these details, three of us and yeah, 0:28:51.120 --> 0:28:53.360 and we were all there were three of us that 0:28:53.440 --> 0:28:56.400 all went to school at Kolbe and we were calling. 0:28:56.440 --> 0:28:58.200 We were selling the ads, we were doing the editorial, 0:28:58.280 --> 0:29:00.400 we were setting the type, we were doing you know, 0:29:00.440 --> 0:29:02.680 we're having it printed and bringing it to the record 0:29:02.680 --> 0:29:05.600 stores and putting the stickers on and you know, the 0:29:05.720 --> 0:29:08.680 name stickers for each one, and you know, and keeping 0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:11.200 the subscription list and all of that we were doing. 0:29:11.320 --> 0:29:12.320 It was unbelievable. 0:29:12.560 --> 0:29:17.480 So at no time did a bigger shark like Billboard, 0:29:18.280 --> 0:29:21.760 you know, any any of these other music industry people 0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:26.520 think like to lease you guys, or to purchase the 0:29:26.560 --> 0:29:30.680 business to work for them wasndented other people. 0:29:30.840 --> 0:29:34.400 Billboard had a disco section that was very significant, and 0:29:34.440 --> 0:29:37.680 they already ran a disco conference called the Billboard Disco Form, 0:29:38.040 --> 0:29:40.080 which all the DJs would come to. And when I 0:29:40.120 --> 0:29:43.560 first moved to New York. I remember August of seventy 0:29:43.600 --> 0:29:46.280 eight going to the Billboard Disco Form, and disco was 0:29:46.400 --> 0:29:48.840 very gay at that point. I mean it was you know, 0:29:49.400 --> 0:29:52.480 the people who controlled disco music and the leaders in it. 0:29:52.480 --> 0:29:54.400 It was a very gay thing. And you know, I 0:29:54.480 --> 0:29:56.080 was one of the few people in the business that 0:29:56.240 --> 0:29:58.360 wasn't so you know, when I would go to the 0:29:58.360 --> 0:30:00.520 disco form, it was hard for me to get into 0:30:00.520 --> 0:30:03.360 the label suites like the Kaza Blanc or the TK 0:30:03.440 --> 0:30:07.640 suites because I wasn't gay. You know, I haven't launched 0:30:07.680 --> 0:30:11.520 a publication yet, but anyway, you know, the publication, you know, 0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:15.080 built up and built up. By nineteen eighty we started 0:30:15.120 --> 0:30:18.240 the New Music Seminar with another publication to compete with 0:30:18.280 --> 0:30:19.520 the Billboard Disco for him. 0:30:19.560 --> 0:30:25.280 Okay, most people and our listeners know about Studio fifty 0:30:25.280 --> 0:30:27.640 four and that, but I know there had to have 0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:31.720 been for every Jordan. There's like twelve guys on the 0:30:31.760 --> 0:30:34.760 playground that are justice talented and ready to whoop possess. So, 0:30:35.240 --> 0:30:37.480 I mean, what were the other clubs in New York 0:30:37.480 --> 0:30:41.960 City besides the Folkal or Studio fifty four or. 0:30:42.160 --> 0:30:45.360 So, there were probably four accesses in dance music during 0:30:45.360 --> 0:30:47.680 the period of time there was that sort of studio. 0:30:47.720 --> 0:30:52.280 Fifty four was the Si Shi Club set the international 0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:56.040 people and you know, the stars, but it wasn't known 0:30:56.080 --> 0:30:58.959 for music. Richie Ksor was the DJ. Didn't really play, 0:30:59.440 --> 0:31:02.320 you know, played good music, but you know, nobody considered 0:31:02.360 --> 0:31:04.440 him the best. Of course, Paradise Garage at the same 0:31:04.480 --> 0:31:07.480 time was Larry Levan and he was playing the most 0:31:07.520 --> 0:31:10.360 amazing music. And the sound system was a Howard Long, 0:31:10.480 --> 0:31:13.760 sick crazy sound system in the place. You know, even to. 0:31:13.720 --> 0:31:16.640 This day year it was Paradise, it was like. 0:31:16.680 --> 0:31:18.720 Seventy eight to eighty one. 0:31:19.320 --> 0:31:23.480 And all the folklore of those speakers and the lights 0:31:23.560 --> 0:31:24.240 and all that stuff. 0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:26.000 I used to do interviews and go to the house 0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:28.840 of the guy who built the sound system, who built it, 0:31:29.720 --> 0:31:34.280 Howard Long, Richard Long, Richard Richard Lungs Sociates RLA. It 0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:37.800 was amazing and you know, the subworfs would you'd walk 0:31:37.840 --> 0:31:39.960 by them, you know, your pants would flap from the 0:31:40.000 --> 0:31:42.360 wind book and they moved so much air. And then 0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:45.200 they had tweeters, those piez of tweeters hanging from the ceiling, 0:31:45.600 --> 0:31:48.200 you know, and he had you know, in the booth. 0:31:48.480 --> 0:31:51.600 He used to play on thor AND's belt drive turntables, 0:31:51.920 --> 0:31:55.920 which is crazy because most DJs only play on direct drive. 0:31:56.360 --> 0:31:59.560 And they had built some kind of a rubber band 0:31:59.760 --> 0:32:02.920 or uh spring suspension for the so that they wouldn't 0:32:03.040 --> 0:32:06.680 keep it from and usually and also from skipping, you know, 0:32:06.800 --> 0:32:09.680 and even though they still would skip sometimes. And he 0:32:09.800 --> 0:32:11.600 was the first guy who had like three turntables. And 0:32:11.640 --> 0:32:13.800 I used to hang out in the booth all the 0:32:13.840 --> 0:32:17.160 time and listen to the stuff he would play, which was, 0:32:17.400 --> 0:32:19.840 you know, more amazing. And then there was another part 0:32:19.960 --> 0:32:23.080 of the business that was Latin. There was clubs that 0:32:23.240 --> 0:32:27.160 were more Latin oriented and they played more salsa oriented 0:32:27.200 --> 0:32:29.160 dance music, which there was a lot of that too. 0:32:29.440 --> 0:32:31.120 People don't know about it because if they were one 0:32:31.240 --> 0:32:33.480 then you know, then there were the gay clubs, which 0:32:33.680 --> 0:32:36.600 was you know, twelve West and you know Roy Thoade 0:32:36.640 --> 0:32:39.280 and DJs like that, and they played much higher beat beat, 0:32:39.280 --> 0:32:42.440 permantent euro disco. They were running, they were tweaking, so 0:32:42.480 --> 0:32:44.680 they were running one hundred and thirty beats per minute, 0:32:44.840 --> 0:32:47.280 you know. The black and then there was the and 0:32:47.320 --> 0:32:49.920 there was and then there was so Pardise Garage was 0:32:49.920 --> 0:32:52.040 black gay so they were playing a little bit more 0:32:52.080 --> 0:32:55.560 down temple. Then there was straight black clubs, you know, 0:32:55.640 --> 0:32:58.040 and they were playing even more down temple. But you know, 0:32:58.520 --> 0:33:00.840 it depends, and then I would go up to nineteen eighty. 0:33:00.880 --> 0:33:04.440 I discovered the Tea Connection in Africa, Benbada, and I 0:33:04.480 --> 0:33:06.480 went up to hear him spin and he was doing 0:33:06.480 --> 0:33:08.800 a whole nother thing that was a mine trip that 0:33:09.000 --> 0:33:11.880 was made everything else that I had ever seen obsolete. 0:33:12.240 --> 0:33:15.200 So the Tea Connection, first of all, always wanted to do, 0:33:15.320 --> 0:33:19.400 is there any connection to the band? Tea Connection? 0:33:19.640 --> 0:33:23.680 And t was the guy's name, I guess that owned 0:33:23.680 --> 0:33:26.600 the space, and it was one floor walk up, just 0:33:26.640 --> 0:33:29.960 a big space with like another like a balcony, and 0:33:30.000 --> 0:33:32.840 then there was located. It was located on White Plains Road, 0:33:32.920 --> 0:33:38.480 right near the l the elevated trains there. You can 0:33:38.520 --> 0:33:41.120 Google it and find it on Google Maps, which I've 0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:41.880 done recently. 0:33:41.600 --> 0:33:43.960 Because I'm not in New York. White Plains is. 0:33:43.960 --> 0:33:49.479 White Plains Road the Bronx. It's it's kind of in 0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:51.800 the Central Bronx. It's definitely not in the South Bronx. 0:33:51.840 --> 0:33:54.920 Everyone talked about the South Bronx and maybe Cedric could 0:33:54.920 --> 0:33:58.600 be considered the South Bronx, but this was you know, Africa. 0:33:58.640 --> 0:34:02.240 Benbada was from Bronx River Center, which was more central 0:34:02.280 --> 0:34:05.720 Bronx off off of the Cross Bronx Expressway. You can 0:34:05.800 --> 0:34:08.200 kind of see it from It's just north of the 0:34:08.200 --> 0:34:12.120 Cross Bronx Expressway and Knightsbridge is just south of it, 0:34:12.239 --> 0:34:14.520 so you know, you could see. And I've learned more 0:34:14.560 --> 0:34:17.040 about this only as I've sort of studied the evolution 0:34:17.120 --> 0:34:19.200 of hip hop over the last five years and how 0:34:19.680 --> 0:34:22.840 you know, the different parts, you know, the different crews 0:34:22.880 --> 0:34:25.480 that came up, came up around them where the projects were. 0:34:26.000 --> 0:34:30.160 So the projects concentrated people and then they made it 0:34:30.239 --> 0:34:33.719 possible actually for gang the gangs to start, and then 0:34:33.760 --> 0:34:36.879 the gangs turned into DJ Cruise also and they all 0:34:36.880 --> 0:34:39.280 came out of That's why the early rap they always 0:34:39.280 --> 0:34:41.280 talk about their their project. 0:34:41.560 --> 0:34:43.840 The one common thread that a lot of the guests 0:34:43.880 --> 0:34:46.680 that are on the show that have experiences with early 0:34:46.760 --> 0:34:52.440 hip hop, I think that the most common theme is 0:34:52.480 --> 0:34:59.480 that no amount of fear will ever surpass their need 0:34:59.800 --> 0:35:07.560 to you hear quality music or quality DJs. So i'man 0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:11.880 in seventy nine eighty, when you're traveling to the Bronx 0:35:12.480 --> 0:35:15.640 White guy traveling to the Bronx, Like to you, there 0:35:15.680 --> 0:35:19.920 was no were you alone? Like was alone any and 0:35:20.040 --> 0:35:22.319 for you the music was too exciting and the scene 0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:25.680 was too exciting for you to even consider like maybe 0:35:25.719 --> 0:35:27.000 I don't belong here. 0:35:27.480 --> 0:35:29.160 So I just never thought about it, you know, it 0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:31.759 never It was a weird thing for me because I 0:35:31.880 --> 0:35:34.719 just because I was rejected always myself. I never really 0:35:34.760 --> 0:35:36.520 thought about us and them and I. You know, when 0:35:36.520 --> 0:35:38.640 I went into these places, the thing I noticed is 0:35:39.040 --> 0:35:42.400 I might have been like twenty twenty five or twenty 0:35:42.400 --> 0:35:45.400 six at the time, and going up the steps to 0:35:45.440 --> 0:35:47.319 the T connection because Ben Boda had put me on 0:35:47.320 --> 0:35:49.520 the list, I was for sure the first white person 0:35:49.560 --> 0:35:52.600 that had ever been there. And you know, so no 0:35:52.640 --> 0:35:55.000 one looked at you where like everybody was You're lost. 0:35:55.239 --> 0:35:56.760 No, everybody was super cool. 0:35:56.800 --> 0:35:58.759 They must have figured that I was from downtown and 0:35:58.800 --> 0:36:01.000 maybe I was a record or something like that. So 0:36:01.040 --> 0:36:03.919 there's there was decent respect. But you know, I wasn't 0:36:03.920 --> 0:36:05.960 thinking about it. I was just going up there. I 0:36:06.000 --> 0:36:07.759 just didn't know where to go. I hadn't been there before. 0:36:07.760 --> 0:36:09.840 I was much more concerned about getting lost and finding 0:36:09.880 --> 0:36:13.920 the place than it was about that, and you know, 0:36:14.200 --> 0:36:16.080 it's never been an issue for me. I never really 0:36:16.120 --> 0:36:19.480 thought about it, you know, even when I'm in you know, 0:36:19.520 --> 0:36:21.960 Harlem World and I hear shots go off, I really 0:36:22.000 --> 0:36:25.239 never really was never thought that I could get hurt 0:36:25.320 --> 0:36:27.960 or something like that. I mean, other people are think 0:36:28.000 --> 0:36:29.839 about that shit a lot. I just don't think about it, 0:36:29.880 --> 0:36:30.080 you know. 0:36:30.280 --> 0:36:33.160 Now, I have a lot of those tapes from the 0:36:32.719 --> 0:36:35.920 Tea Connection of you know, like Coal Crust Brothers and 0:36:36.000 --> 0:36:39.680 flashing them performing there. How big is the Tea Connection. 0:36:39.920 --> 0:36:41.680 Like the size of it a little bigger than the 0:36:41.680 --> 0:36:44.080 size of the sleep with a balcony up on top 0:36:44.160 --> 0:36:47.640 where when I first walked in, I saw Bembodis in 0:36:47.640 --> 0:36:50.799 front of the turntables and on one side Jazzy Jay 0:36:50.840 --> 0:36:52.239 and the other side read Alert. 0:36:54.320 --> 0:36:54.640 Wow. 0:36:55.880 --> 0:36:58.040 When I went up and Avengers and that was the 0:36:58.120 --> 0:37:00.680 day I met them all cast. 0:37:00.600 --> 0:37:03.480 Leave the Avengers over there. So I'm saying the average 0:37:03.480 --> 0:37:06.000 club size is like one hundred and fifty maybe two 0:37:06.080 --> 0:37:10.000 hundred people get get in. Yeah. See, when I'm listening 0:37:10.040 --> 0:37:13.000 to it sounds yeah like And then it's just hitting 0:37:13.080 --> 0:37:17.239 me that a lot of the game changing aspects of 0:37:17.280 --> 0:37:21.640 the culture were slightly under three hundred. 0:37:21.880 --> 0:37:25.160 Yeah, the Grills was small, but the Bronx River Center 0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:27.359 was a lot bigger, you know. And the other thing 0:37:27.400 --> 0:37:29.440 you had to consider is that this is all ages. 0:37:29.520 --> 0:37:31.640 You know. The kids in there were average age, probably 0:37:31.640 --> 0:37:34.480 sixteen or seventeen, so they were making their dollar at 0:37:34.520 --> 0:37:37.440 the door, three dollars or whatever it costs, you know. 0:37:37.920 --> 0:37:39.960 And you know then I met ben Bada that day 0:37:39.960 --> 0:37:42.759 and he gave me his business card that said Africa Bambada, 0:37:43.000 --> 0:37:44.239 Master of Records. 0:37:46.760 --> 0:37:48.120 Where did you first meet him? Was he? 0:37:48.280 --> 0:37:50.360 I was there? You're right there that day. That was 0:37:50.400 --> 0:37:52.719 the day I had found out about him by going 0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:55.960 to Downstairs Records to do an interview about this new 0:37:56.040 --> 0:37:57.640 room that they'd open because they were one of the 0:37:57.680 --> 0:38:01.520 reporters to Dance Music Report, uh, and they were talking 0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:03.640 about they just opened a new room that was like 0:38:03.640 --> 0:38:05.799 the size of a walk in closet that was called 0:38:05.840 --> 0:38:07.960 the break breaks Room or the Breakbeat Room. 0:38:08.120 --> 0:38:12.600 Is this the subway version of Downstairs or the boy. 0:38:11.600 --> 0:38:15.320 Right here on forty third and sixth Avenue down on 0:38:15.680 --> 0:38:17.480 the mezzanine before you go into the subway. 0:38:18.239 --> 0:38:25.480 So am I too assume that I'm not too I'm 0:38:25.520 --> 0:38:27.560 not too knowledgeable in the history of the owners of 0:38:27.719 --> 0:38:30.359 Downstairs Records. But am I believe that they're the ones 0:38:30.400 --> 0:38:36.480 that first started the idea of comping breaks and put 0:38:36.480 --> 0:38:39.000 them on one record like the No, they're not the guys, 0:38:39.200 --> 0:38:41.720 they're not. This was when they first sold it though right. 0:38:42.000 --> 0:38:43.799 They might have sold records, they weren't the ones who 0:38:43.800 --> 0:38:46.200 made it. That was like record Lenny and Paul Winley, 0:38:46.280 --> 0:38:48.399 those were the guys who did that. 0:38:49.200 --> 0:38:52.719 We had something to do with with the guys at 0:38:52.719 --> 0:38:53.640 Downstairs Records. 0:38:53.680 --> 0:38:56.200 Like, no that that store had been there for years. 0:38:56.239 --> 0:38:59.680 It wasn't it. It wasn't a black record store, but 0:38:59.760 --> 0:39:02.319 it was in the subway, so you know, everyone went 0:39:02.320 --> 0:39:05.040 by it anyway. That's where I bought my disco records. 0:39:05.080 --> 0:39:07.200 That's also where I bought my duop records. They had 0:39:07.200 --> 0:39:09.960 a huge do hop collection. They had, you know, all 0:39:10.120 --> 0:39:13.239 of like the indie kinds of things. There was a 0:39:13.320 --> 0:39:15.560 couple of record stores that were in the subways. There 0:39:15.760 --> 0:39:18.200 used to be one that was around the Times Square 0:39:18.239 --> 0:39:20.600 shuttle that was a Latin record store that used to 0:39:20.600 --> 0:39:23.000 walk by all the time because there's a huge amount 0:39:23.040 --> 0:39:25.640 of traffic that goes by, and that was in that 0:39:25.800 --> 0:39:27.840 was in the subway. This one was before you went in. 0:39:28.800 --> 0:39:31.319 I think I'm gonna bring that back. It's it's still there. 0:39:31.440 --> 0:39:32.600 That record? Is that one there? 0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:35.800 The one by the the one Latin Times Square? 0:39:37.160 --> 0:39:38.759 I don't know what it's called a Latin name, right, 0:39:39.200 --> 0:39:39.719 I think so. 0:39:39.840 --> 0:39:41.720 I think that's where you get have your jest stuff. 0:39:41.760 --> 0:39:43.520 Now right now, I mean I went in there a 0:39:43.560 --> 0:39:44.680 couple of times. It's weird. 0:39:46.920 --> 0:39:49.160 What's what do they sell in there? Now? They do 0:39:49.200 --> 0:39:51.640 they sell wax? Do they sell a little old stuff? 0:39:51.680 --> 0:39:54.680 But yeah, yeah, they're still sell vinyl? Yeah, other stuff too. 0:39:54.760 --> 0:39:56.920 Where's this It's like in the time, it's right by 0:39:56.960 --> 0:39:59.319 where you're saying, by the by the shuttle, yeah, by 0:39:59.320 --> 0:40:02.000 the at the path shut up the s train in 0:40:02.120 --> 0:40:02.640 Times Square. 0:40:03.840 --> 0:40:07.399 I forget what it's called. Make a pilgrimage there, yeah, 0:40:07.880 --> 0:40:12.360 I I think I'm embarking that. Like I have a 0:40:12.440 --> 0:40:16.560 dream of opening a spot that sells forty fives in 0:40:16.640 --> 0:40:19.840 the subway, like a small boutique, kind of like Jero 0:40:20.040 --> 0:40:22.400 does in Japan. Like oh yeah, right, I mean he 0:40:22.480 --> 0:40:31.720 charges fifteen milso forty five for five. 0:40:35.360 --> 0:40:36.719 Security New York. 0:40:37.600 --> 0:40:44.520 I'll make seers in the village somewhere so exactly. 0:40:45.120 --> 0:40:46.560 So, uh. 0:40:48.000 --> 0:40:50.920 Are you routinely coming to the tea connection. 0:40:51.480 --> 0:40:53.560 I mean I went two or three times to the 0:40:53.560 --> 0:40:56.000 tea connection, but that very night at the tea connection, 0:40:56.560 --> 0:40:58.279 when I watch what he's doing. I watched how he 0:40:58.280 --> 0:41:00.320 played the records. I saw the marks on the records. 0:41:00.320 --> 0:41:02.879 I sort of label steamed off the records. I saw 0:41:02.920 --> 0:41:04.600 the tape on the records. You know, all of the 0:41:04.600 --> 0:41:07.879 things he did. You know, at that point I got 0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:10.040 to know benbody. I asked him, I said, do you 0:41:10.080 --> 0:41:11.960 want do you want to make a record that sounds 0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:15.640 like this? Because he was playing you know, Billy Squire, 0:41:16.440 --> 0:41:20.680 sly Stone, the Monkeys, you know, craft Work, all of 0:41:20.680 --> 0:41:22.800 this stuff together and all of these kids were dancing 0:41:22.880 --> 0:41:24.760 and it was just to me it was a revelation. 0:41:24.840 --> 0:41:26.759 I'd never seen anything like it. I said, this is 0:41:27.320 --> 0:41:32.720 what heaven is supposed to be. You know, everybody, everything together, 0:41:33.000 --> 0:41:35.520 it's all okay. If you could dance to it, come on, 0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:39.000 and you know that inclusiveness has been was Ben Boda's 0:41:39.040 --> 0:41:43.360 theme with the Zulu nation throughout. You know, everybody was 0:41:43.400 --> 0:41:46.480 always welcome to the party. He invited anybody who wanted 0:41:46.520 --> 0:41:49.000 to come, and that would happen at the Bronx River 0:41:49.080 --> 0:41:52.879 Center for all of the Zulu Nation anniversary parties every year, 0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:54.920 people would come from every country the world. And that's 0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:58.279 where all of the film crews came from Japan and 0:41:58.360 --> 0:42:02.360 from France and from Belgium or Holland and brought and 0:42:02.440 --> 0:42:05.719 brought video back and exposed the whole thing that was 0:42:05.760 --> 0:42:07.760 happening with hip hop and the pillage of hip hop, 0:42:08.239 --> 0:42:11.120 and you know, planted the seeds. So you know, if 0:42:11.160 --> 0:42:14.040 anybody is the Johnny apple Seed of hip hop, it's 0:42:14.040 --> 0:42:16.799 Africa Bambada. And I helped. 0:42:20.080 --> 0:42:26.440 So to start a label in in the early eighties. 0:42:27.520 --> 0:42:29.959 What does it take? I mean, now, when people want 0:42:30.000 --> 0:42:35.759 to do stuff, you just put it SoundCloud there it is. 0:42:35.880 --> 0:42:40.920 But if you're seriously now that you you've studied distribution 0:42:41.160 --> 0:42:45.640 and DJs and you have connections, how much does if 0:42:45.680 --> 0:42:48.520 you're you know, starting a label, how much does it 0:42:48.560 --> 0:42:50.640 cost to start a label today? In nineteen No, in 0:42:50.719 --> 0:42:51.320 nineteen eighty. 0:42:51.719 --> 0:42:54.160 Well, so I borrowed five thousand dollars from my parents, 0:42:55.520 --> 0:42:57.520 and because I already had my rent covered, you know, 0:42:57.560 --> 0:42:59.880 I was doing the publication. I already had a medium 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:01.960 I could advertise in for free because I already had 0:43:02.000 --> 0:43:04.319 the publication. So I had a connection to DJs, and 0:43:04.360 --> 0:43:07.359 I could using DJs. I could break the music through 0:43:07.400 --> 0:43:10.200 the DJs too, So I was dependent on that. 0:43:10.880 --> 0:43:13.719 But so by this time it's dance did discos not 0:43:13.800 --> 0:43:14.279 Disco News? 0:43:14.280 --> 0:43:15.600 Is Dance Music Report officially? 0:43:15.680 --> 0:43:19.000 Yeah? I think so, yes. By seventy nine it became 0:43:19.080 --> 0:43:21.480 dance When disco died in seventy nine, we changed the 0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:24.879 name to Dance Music Report. Yeah, yes, definitely. And then 0:43:25.120 --> 0:43:28.800 so yeah, you know this was by this is nineteen 0:43:28.840 --> 0:43:31.880 eighty one. You know, I'm saying, like, let's start. So 0:43:31.960 --> 0:43:34.400 I work with Ben Boda. I cut a demo for 0:43:34.440 --> 0:43:37.719 what would become Planet Rock and eight track demo and uh, 0:43:37.960 --> 0:43:40.319 and I was starting the label up and deciding what 0:43:40.320 --> 0:43:40.600 to do. 0:43:41.680 --> 0:43:48.680 Quick question. The effects of the disco sucks uh period? 0:43:49.000 --> 0:43:54.760 The regulation Yeah, racism m no, but the after effects 0:43:54.760 --> 0:43:56.680 of it, it was actually more homophobic than it was. 0:43:58.280 --> 0:44:06.680 But did it did that effect or deter anyone from starting? Uh? 0:44:06.840 --> 0:44:11.680 Independent labels? Because I assume that the independent labels of 0:44:11.719 --> 0:44:15.640 the seventies were primarily to make disco records them. 0:44:15.360 --> 0:44:20.160 And sees, yeah, Prelude, TK, you know west End that 0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:23.000 you know, Yeah, they were serving that community, the DJ 0:44:23.080 --> 0:44:26.160 community because it was so hard to get records played 0:44:26.239 --> 0:44:29.439 on radio, just as it is today. In fact, it's 0:44:29.440 --> 0:44:32.640 worse today. But as you know, there were less radio 0:44:32.640 --> 0:44:35.840 stations then and it was hard, but there were no chains, 0:44:36.000 --> 0:44:38.400 so each radio station made their own decisions. So you 0:44:38.440 --> 0:44:41.759 can go to one radio station and convince that programmer 0:44:41.960 --> 0:44:43.480 that it would be a good idea for them to 0:44:43.480 --> 0:44:46.560 play that record, if you know what I mean. Wink wink, 0:44:46.960 --> 0:44:50.919 and yeah. 0:44:49.239 --> 0:44:55.680 Hit man. What's his name of Frederick Gan Records Stories. 0:44:55.800 --> 0:44:57.719 Yeah, he was one of my mentors. You know, I 0:44:57.760 --> 0:45:02.239 have plenty of more the shows to share worse right now. 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:05.759 But so was dominated again and you know Chris Blackwell 0:45:05.800 --> 0:45:06.760 and mal Austin. 0:45:06.840 --> 0:45:08.760 So you've worked with Mars Levy. 0:45:09.120 --> 0:45:10.680 I didn't work with him, but you know I spent 0:45:10.800 --> 0:45:13.040 some time in his office, you know, having meetings. 0:45:13.080 --> 0:45:17.960 Can you can you give us some Marris Levy wisdom 0:45:18.000 --> 0:45:24.880 that you're allowed I saw while I was So does 0:45:25.040 --> 0:45:26.200 everybody know the. 0:45:27.800 --> 0:45:33.120 You know, what's the what's the famous movie where where 0:45:33.760 --> 0:45:35.640 the guy owes him five bucks and he wants to 0:45:35.680 --> 0:45:37.880 chase him across the Bronx tails, you know, in that 0:45:38.040 --> 0:45:39.319 Bronx tail and he is I want to get my 0:45:39.360 --> 0:45:41.400 money back, and he says, forget it for five dollars. 0:45:41.560 --> 0:45:44.080 It's the cheapest way to ever get rid of somebody 0:45:44.120 --> 0:45:46.200 you don't want in your life. So I'm sitting in 0:45:46.719 --> 0:45:50.640 follow that rule. So so I'm sitting in in Morris 0:45:50.719 --> 0:45:55.200 Levy's office and a guy calls and asks him to 0:45:55.200 --> 0:45:57.719 borrow ten thousand dollars or something like that, or five 0:45:57.760 --> 0:46:01.799 thousand dollars. And he says, okay, I want it back 0:46:01.880 --> 0:46:03.480 in a week. If I don't get it back in 0:46:03.520 --> 0:46:07.600 a week, don't ever call me again. I don't know you. 0:46:08.640 --> 0:46:12.400 And he hangs up the phone. He gets he calls 0:46:12.440 --> 0:46:17.360 his assistant or somebody said, have have somebody write up 0:46:17.400 --> 0:46:19.520 a check for five thousand dollars for this guy. He's 0:46:19.560 --> 0:46:21.600 coming to pick it up this afternoon, just like that, 0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:25.880 not a question. And so that was that rule. But 0:46:25.920 --> 0:46:28.040 he tells the guy in advance, which was the honorable 0:46:28.080 --> 0:46:31.160 thing to do. And then he pays the guy, gives 0:46:31.160 --> 0:46:33.400 the guy money that it's not money he owed him, 0:46:33.400 --> 0:46:35.920 it's money the guy needed. And Morris Leeve he's always 0:46:36.080 --> 0:46:38.960 helped people who had gambling debts or other things not 0:46:39.000 --> 0:46:43.000 get killed by paying the debts off, but taking you know, 0:46:43.080 --> 0:46:45.719 George Goldner's catalog and why the Fool's fall in love? 0:46:45.760 --> 0:46:48.719 And that's why it says Lymon Levy, but it used 0:46:48.719 --> 0:46:50.759 to say Limon Goldener, by the way, so he just 0:46:50.800 --> 0:46:54.200 took George Goldner's share of the label. It's why the 0:46:54.239 --> 0:46:58.960 Beatles that were originally signed to their first record came 0:46:59.000 --> 0:47:01.400 each of the black owned label out of Chicago. But 0:47:01.680 --> 0:47:04.400 because they didn't have their business straight, they lost the 0:47:04.480 --> 0:47:07.600 record to Swan and then Capitol picked it up after that. 0:47:08.120 --> 0:47:11.480 You know, history could be different if the Beatles had 0:47:11.520 --> 0:47:14.120 been signed for their entire career to a black. 0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:16.720 Old Left Chair Records, right. 0:47:16.840 --> 0:47:21.239 Or a VJ would have been could you imagine? 0:47:24.440 --> 0:47:27.840 So were you at all worried about what the climate 0:47:27.920 --> 0:47:30.160 was going to bring in the eighties by starting your 0:47:30.200 --> 0:47:35.760 own label, especially with the idea of killing off disco 0:47:35.840 --> 0:47:40.640 culture or the backlash that it was facing, like for 0:47:40.719 --> 0:47:41.920 the independent label. 0:47:41.680 --> 0:47:44.480 At least, What do you mean no, Because I think 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:47.800 disco never really died. That was a press thing because 0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:50.400 in nineteen seventy nine the music business had a recession. 0:47:50.400 --> 0:47:53.040 It was the first recession the business had been growing, 0:47:53.400 --> 0:47:55.799 I guess off the back of cassettes and then all 0:47:55.840 --> 0:47:59.640 of a sudden, maybe it was I forget what it was, 0:47:59.680 --> 0:48:04.400 but for some reason, catalog peaked and the record sales 0:48:04.440 --> 0:48:06.560 dropped and they needed a escapegoat and they used disco 0:48:06.600 --> 0:48:10.239 as the scapegoat. Ironically, the same year, disco died out 0:48:10.239 --> 0:48:12.480 of the top ten records of that year in nineteen 0:48:12.560 --> 0:48:14.960 seventy nine, like seven of them were club hits, club 0:48:15.040 --> 0:48:18.680 dance records, including Michael Jackson Jackson's and stuff like that. 0:48:18.800 --> 0:48:21.520 So I'm always hearing about like this is the worst 0:48:21.560 --> 0:48:26.400 time for music, Like even when Quincy Jones and Michael 0:48:26.480 --> 0:48:32.560 and Bruce Udina starting a thriller, their first mantras We're 0:48:32.560 --> 0:48:35.399 here to save the music industry. So I'm always hearing 0:48:35.440 --> 0:48:38.120 of this time where like sales are down or we 0:48:38.200 --> 0:48:41.560 need to save the industry. I mean, in your mind, 0:48:41.600 --> 0:48:46.759 when was the quote the glory years of the industry. 0:48:47.280 --> 0:48:50.000 Well, there's two ways to answer that question. There's the 0:48:50.040 --> 0:48:52.480 aesthetic way in the financial way. The financial way is 0:48:52.480 --> 0:48:55.080 easy because twenty or nineteen ninety nine two thousand was 0:48:55.080 --> 0:48:59.719 the peak revenue. By twenty ten, the combined revenues of 0:48:59.719 --> 0:49:02.279 the US record business were about the exact same after 0:49:02.400 --> 0:49:05.960 inflation as they were in nineteen sixty six, so we 0:49:06.080 --> 0:49:08.960 lost about sixty percent of all of the employees in 0:49:09.000 --> 0:49:11.120 the music business and all of the value of the 0:49:11.200 --> 0:49:14.520 music business during that period of time. So but now 0:49:14.719 --> 0:49:17.560 this year the business is up between eight nine percent 0:49:18.040 --> 0:49:21.560 for the first time since nineteen ninety seven, and last 0:49:21.640 --> 0:49:23.600 year it was up two percent. So we have two 0:49:23.680 --> 0:49:25.719 years of growth, the first two years of growth since 0:49:25.719 --> 0:49:29.160 two thousand and one. Two thousand, really two thousand, actually yeah, 0:49:29.160 --> 0:49:32.200 two thousand was the last year of growth, any growth 0:49:32.400 --> 0:49:35.680 at all. Okay, So yeah, and then aesthetically, I can't 0:49:35.719 --> 0:49:38.279 really say because you could say nineteen fifty four when 0:49:38.360 --> 0:49:42.600 rock and roll started, you know, you could say nineteen 0:49:43.400 --> 0:49:46.640 forty nine when bebop started, or you know, a certain 0:49:46.680 --> 0:49:48.839 kind of jazz started, you could say, but in your 0:49:48.840 --> 0:49:52.080 heart of hearts, nineteen seventy five when disco started. You 0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:56.920 could say nineteen eighty one or eighty when hip hop started. 0:49:57.360 --> 0:50:01.240 But in your heart of hearts, what's your My passion 0:50:01.320 --> 0:50:03.560 lies with this year, like what's your. 0:50:04.920 --> 0:50:07.040 Well because I'm in the duops that era and I 0:50:07.080 --> 0:50:09.080 was born in fifty four, so that was my ear 0:50:09.239 --> 0:50:12.040 like of shit, you know, that really touched me and 0:50:12.080 --> 0:50:14.480 made me cry. And made me feel like love you know, 0:50:15.400 --> 0:50:18.560 through music and connected to me. But the same thing 0:50:18.600 --> 0:50:21.839 happened to me when that day at tea Connection, when 0:50:21.840 --> 0:50:23.880 I saw what Bam Boda was doing in the Connection, 0:50:24.000 --> 0:50:26.479 I said, this is going to change the whole game, 0:50:26.880 --> 0:50:29.400 you know. And people talk about the four pillars of 0:50:29.480 --> 0:50:32.560 hip hop, you know, because it wasn't it wasn't just music. 0:50:32.600 --> 0:50:35.960 It was obviously it was this introduction of rapping on 0:50:36.160 --> 0:50:40.000 sort of a formalized way, and you know, turntable to them, 0:50:40.400 --> 0:50:42.160 you know. And then clearly, you know, there was a 0:50:42.280 --> 0:50:44.399 dance element and there was an art element to it. 0:50:44.560 --> 0:50:46.680 But there's a fifth element that nobody talks about, and 0:50:46.680 --> 0:50:49.040 Bamboda always talks about knowledge is the fifth pillar. But 0:50:49.560 --> 0:50:53.840 the fifth pillar also is sampling, the idea of taking 0:50:53.880 --> 0:50:57.359 something old and recontextualizing it and making it something new. 0:50:57.560 --> 0:51:00.600 Bamboda did that live, Cool, Heirk did that live. You know, 0:51:00.760 --> 0:51:04.279 the early DJs, you know, Theodore and those guys took 0:51:04.360 --> 0:51:08.279 little bits of things and made them into elements that 0:51:08.520 --> 0:51:12.080 you know, became famous later. And so sampling is clearly 0:51:12.120 --> 0:51:14.399 the fifth I don't know if there could be hip 0:51:14.400 --> 0:51:18.759 hop without sampling. I think I can't even imagine the 0:51:18.800 --> 0:51:21.320 first ten years of hip hop if there wasn't sampling, 0:51:21.920 --> 0:51:24.480 you know, or you know, the sampling equivalency that happened. 0:51:24.640 --> 0:51:26.040 I don't even be derivative. 0:51:26.080 --> 0:51:28.120 I mean, but that's with music, I mean, because that's 0:51:28.120 --> 0:51:31.919 what everything really, that's what's Samplin and Lollen Stones was doing. 0:51:32.000 --> 0:51:34.839 And cover records are that, but you know even more 0:51:35.160 --> 0:51:38.600 interpolations which have happened before. So before I prepared for 0:51:38.640 --> 0:51:41.600 the show by going online because I know we were 0:51:41.600 --> 0:51:45.640 going to talk about sampling here. And I want to 0:51:45.719 --> 0:51:49.520 quote Isaac Newton from sixteen seventy five, Sir Isaac Newton 0:51:49.560 --> 0:51:53.279 who said, we stand on the shoulders of giants. I'm 0:51:53.320 --> 0:51:56.320 only here because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants, 0:51:56.600 --> 0:52:00.480 and every sample is a sample of a giant that 0:52:00.560 --> 0:52:02.919 came before. And even if you go to that song, 0:52:03.000 --> 0:52:05.280 there was an influence. They were on someone else's shoulders. 0:52:05.280 --> 0:52:07.640 So you got the ripples fifty people that go back 0:52:07.719 --> 0:52:11.040 till the first guy was hitting something with a stick, 0:52:11.400 --> 0:52:15.600 you know. So you know, it's a really it's a 0:52:15.640 --> 0:52:19.640 real big issue that we can't find the past and 0:52:20.280 --> 0:52:24.240 give today's creators access to the past to create new futures. 0:52:24.480 --> 0:52:26.600 That's what hip hop is about. And to me, that's 0:52:26.640 --> 0:52:29.560 the revolution of it. To add new context to old 0:52:29.560 --> 0:52:34.040 content is to reinvent the world. That's the ultimate recycling. 0:52:34.160 --> 0:52:37.719 That's you know, it's a divine science and art, and 0:52:37.800 --> 0:52:39.840 I think it needs to be liberated. 0:52:40.400 --> 0:52:43.640 So when was Tommy Boy born? And why did you 0:52:43.719 --> 0:52:44.080 name it. 0:52:44.600 --> 0:52:47.839 Eighty one Tommy Boy? 0:52:47.920 --> 0:52:50.719 Well, no, no, no, I mean what were the other options? Like, 0:52:50.760 --> 0:52:53.080 did you have any other options for label names? 0:52:53.560 --> 0:52:57.239 So I was studying a lot about this and and 0:52:57.480 --> 0:53:00.560 you know, the label that was existing since seven nine 0:53:00.560 --> 0:53:03.000 that was sort of inspirational for me was sugar Hill. 0:53:03.920 --> 0:53:09.920 And you know, in nineteen eighty when we started the 0:53:10.280 --> 0:53:15.440 New Music Seminar, we you know, at that point we 0:53:15.440 --> 0:53:19.160 were sort of looking at what was happening and what 0:53:19.560 --> 0:53:23.040 the changes were happening. And that's when I was, you know, 0:53:23.320 --> 0:53:27.960 sort of discovered Bambada and jumped into what hip hop 0:53:27.960 --> 0:53:30.000 culture was becoming. Because, by the way, in nineteen eighty 0:53:30.000 --> 0:53:31.960 it wasn't called hip hop yet. Nobody talked about hip 0:53:31.960 --> 0:53:34.680 hop till nineteen eighty two. You know, it was break 0:53:34.880 --> 0:53:38.040 music or breaks or bee boy music or something like that. 0:53:39.440 --> 0:53:42.399 Bambadas told me I wrote an article in Dance Music 0:53:42.440 --> 0:53:45.920 Report and interviewed Cool Hurricane in Africa Bambada, and it 0:53:46.000 --> 0:53:47.560 must have been writing in nineteen eighty. I have to 0:53:47.600 --> 0:53:51.719 find that article still when and he was. You know, 0:53:51.719 --> 0:53:53.840 they were telling me the story of the roots of 0:53:53.880 --> 0:53:56.960 this music and how this music evolved, because to me, 0:53:57.040 --> 0:53:59.640 I thought we covered every kind of dance music, and 0:53:59.719 --> 0:54:02.160 you know, we covered reggae, dance oriented rock, every kind 0:54:02.200 --> 0:54:04.640 of music, and you know, this was a new kind 0:54:04.680 --> 0:54:07.319 of dance music, at least to our readers, and you know, 0:54:07.360 --> 0:54:09.480 I wanted to cover the evolution of it. In nineteen 0:54:09.520 --> 0:54:13.359 seventy nine, when Rappers Delight came out, it changed the world. 0:54:13.440 --> 0:54:15.560 It's you know, it was a game changer everywhere. That 0:54:15.680 --> 0:54:18.120 was like lightning in a bottle. That record, you know, 0:54:18.560 --> 0:54:20.319 was a real wake up call. And that's sort of 0:54:20.320 --> 0:54:22.759 when I started building my business plan for Tommy Boy. 0:54:23.239 --> 0:54:25.960 You know, if they can do this, you know, then 0:54:26.120 --> 0:54:29.600 it's possible that others can. You know that I could 0:54:29.640 --> 0:54:32.040 possibly do it too. You know, I didn't think there 0:54:32.120 --> 0:54:35.640 was a special magic between Joe and Sylvia Robinson. You know, 0:54:36.200 --> 0:54:38.880 they might have had more pull with Frankie Crocker or 0:54:38.880 --> 0:54:42.200 something like that, but I didn't really think that, you know. 0:54:42.480 --> 0:54:45.080 I was also influenced by reading books about the drifters 0:54:45.120 --> 0:54:48.160 and how how labels didn't pay artists in the duop era, 0:54:48.560 --> 0:54:50.279 you know. And one of the reasons I wanted to 0:54:50.280 --> 0:54:52.040 start a label was I wanted to try to say 0:54:52.120 --> 0:54:54.000 is that could you start a label and do the 0:54:54.040 --> 0:54:56.880 right thing and pay people and do what you're supposed 0:54:56.920 --> 0:54:59.480 to do and be fair, you know, with artists, And 0:54:59.520 --> 0:55:02.400 so that was like a driving you know issue for me. 0:55:02.719 --> 0:55:04.880 But it was, you know, I knew I wanted to 0:55:04.920 --> 0:55:07.120 do something, but until I saw what Ben Boda was doing, 0:55:07.120 --> 0:55:09.200 I didn't see a path to do it. And then 0:55:09.239 --> 0:55:11.920 Ben Bod actually gave me the first record, you know, 0:55:11.960 --> 0:55:13.680 he was sort of the A and R guy, you know, 0:55:13.719 --> 0:55:15.640 he said, this is a great record. You should put 0:55:15.640 --> 0:55:18.040 this record out. And it was Cotton Candy, which was 0:55:18.040 --> 0:55:19.879 the first record I released that wasn't a hit. 0:55:20.640 --> 0:55:21.640 Who did Cotton Candy? 0:55:21.800 --> 0:55:24.239 Cotton Candy was the group. The name of the song 0:55:24.360 --> 0:55:27.920 was having Fun and it wasn't really a record. That 0:55:28.040 --> 0:55:32.280 was TB eight eleven catalog number, first Tommy Boy release. 0:55:32.600 --> 0:55:35.479 The second one was Jazzy Sensation, was was the first 0:55:35.480 --> 0:55:38.919 Bemboda record, so Bam Boda found like you know, three 0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:40.640 or four and then I'd go to the you know, 0:55:41.400 --> 0:55:44.120 to his things and I'd discover the four c mds 0:55:44.160 --> 0:55:47.880 at the Zulu Nation anniversary party that Bronx River Center 0:55:47.960 --> 0:55:51.400 or you know Cold Crush Brothers, which I didn't get tough. 0:55:51.920 --> 0:55:56.320 Uh you know, Scott, were you there for the Jazzy 0:55:56.360 --> 0:56:00.400 Sensation sessions? Who was that? Do you know the house was? 0:56:01.320 --> 0:56:03.279 I don't remember who the house bend was there was 0:56:04.160 --> 0:56:07.640 it was Pumpkin and All Stars, I don't think, so, okay, 0:56:08.280 --> 0:56:11.239 it was it was Arthur Baker that produced that. And 0:56:11.360 --> 0:56:14.360 after I had given Arthur already the demo that I 0:56:14.360 --> 0:56:17.480 had cut for what would become Planet Rock, which which 0:56:17.520 --> 0:56:20.279 had like replays of samples that were built into it 0:56:20.920 --> 0:56:22.880 more than the ones that were ended up being on 0:56:22.920 --> 0:56:25.080 Planet Rock, and I gave it to him and he, uh, 0:56:26.400 --> 0:56:28.960 he said, can I produce this? And I said, yeah, 0:56:29.000 --> 0:56:31.120 that'd be great. But it came up that we wanted 0:56:31.160 --> 0:56:35.279 to do sort of a take on Funky Sensation, So 0:56:35.360 --> 0:56:36.280 we did that one first. 0:56:36.680 --> 0:56:40.840 Because that's night and Day. If anything I can, like, 0:56:40.880 --> 0:56:44.839 I consider enjoying sugar Hill. It's like Okay, are they 0:56:44.880 --> 0:56:47.440 the first hip hop labels? Are they last? 0:56:47.680 --> 0:56:47.839 Right? 0:56:47.920 --> 0:56:51.320 The last of the disco labels? And like I'd consider 0:56:51.400 --> 0:56:56.759 Tommy Boy really the first hip hop true like modernized 0:56:57.080 --> 0:57:00.880 between you and Profile, like the Real established a modern 0:57:00.960 --> 0:57:02.120 hip hop label, which. 0:57:01.960 --> 0:57:05.839 Is another story. Is I brought Corey Robbins to the 0:57:06.280 --> 0:57:09.080 Tea connection to see Benbo to spin he wasn't a 0:57:09.160 --> 0:57:11.479 hip hop label before he was. He ran a label 0:57:11.520 --> 0:57:15.360 called Panorama before that, and then he started, uh, Profile 0:57:15.400 --> 0:57:18.440 Records and Profile Records. Was it like Tommy Boy was 0:57:18.480 --> 0:57:19.840 supposed to be a dance label because I had a 0:57:19.920 --> 0:57:23.080 dance publication and my DJs were you know, everything in 0:57:23.160 --> 0:57:26.480 hip hop was disco the beginnings of people don't think 0:57:26.680 --> 0:57:29.000 they think hip hop is something else. It's not. It's 0:57:29.040 --> 0:57:32.120 like it's just like Jesus was a Jew, you know, 0:57:32.840 --> 0:57:39.960 hip hop was this? Is this the last supper? Was 0:57:40.000 --> 0:57:45.680 the say come on you know yeah on ash Wednesday? 0:57:45.840 --> 0:57:56.040 Exactly? So so one with Planet Rock and what it's 0:57:56.080 --> 0:58:03.000 done for technology and really just taking hip hop's leaves 0:58:03.040 --> 0:58:08.800 and bounds above, I mean really starting modern electro music. 0:58:10.080 --> 0:58:14.080 How what's what's this? The story behind it? Like how 0:58:15.560 --> 0:58:17.240 it was it just like hey, I have this craft 0:58:17.240 --> 0:58:20.360 work record, and how can we make it sound robotic 0:58:20.400 --> 0:58:22.520 and futuristic like this? And Arthur Baker's like. 0:58:22.480 --> 0:58:23.840 Oh no, because I told you I already had the 0:58:23.840 --> 0:58:25.400 demo that had been done a year and a half. 0:58:25.440 --> 0:58:26.720 A year before that. 0:58:26.800 --> 0:58:28.480 Was an A Rock was done in eighty. 0:58:28.640 --> 0:58:31.440 No, there was an eight track demo that included the 0:58:31.440 --> 0:58:34.440 elements that ended up being in Planet Rock, plus just 0:58:34.520 --> 0:58:37.800 the instrumental part and three other things that we ended 0:58:37.880 --> 0:58:40.919 up not using, you know, besides craft work. 0:58:42.360 --> 0:58:43.720 You're saying the track was done a year, but. 0:58:43.880 --> 0:58:48.760 I originally had envisioned using I like it by BT 0:58:48.920 --> 0:58:55.840 express the beat from that exactly, and Rick James give 0:58:55.880 --> 0:58:59.760 it to me baseline, you know so, and those things 0:58:59.800 --> 0:59:04.600 were worked into the original demo as well. Really yeah, okay, 0:59:04.920 --> 0:59:06.800 and then we decided we didn't need that much. It 0:59:06.840 --> 0:59:09.480 was too confusing. Does that exist? Does that the original 0:59:09.440 --> 0:59:12.600 deal will still exist anywhere? I don't have it. It 0:59:12.640 --> 0:59:16.240 probably does. Arthur Baker might have it as a cassette. 0:59:16.840 --> 0:59:18.160 It must have. It must exist. 0:59:18.240 --> 0:59:19.000 Some last question. 0:59:20.320 --> 0:59:23.160 Search, Let the search begin. We got to find it. 0:59:23.720 --> 0:59:25.200 Everything exists somewhere. 0:59:25.480 --> 0:59:27.320 He still alive. Yeah, he's doing great. 0:59:27.360 --> 0:59:29.479 He just produced the eight oh eight movie, the movie 0:59:29.480 --> 0:59:31.200 on eight o eight, which is getting ready to be 0:59:31.280 --> 0:59:34.760 the story thank you. So what we're talking about here 0:59:34.840 --> 0:59:38.080 is we had no money, so we decided to buy 0:59:38.240 --> 0:59:40.320 one reel of two inch tape and record at fifteen 0:59:40.360 --> 0:59:43.360 ips because thirty would have been too much. And the 0:59:43.440 --> 0:59:45.760 idea here with Arthur was that we're going to make 0:59:45.760 --> 0:59:47.800 a rap record with what we're doing here, and then 0:59:47.800 --> 0:59:50.720 we'll also do a vocal record with the same tracks, 0:59:51.360 --> 0:59:55.400 you know, because there was too yeah you got it, see, 0:59:55.680 --> 0:59:58.520 And so so we go, we go into the studio 0:59:58.880 --> 1:00:02.000 and it's a studio. It's on eighty fifth Street in 1:00:02.040 --> 1:00:06.440 an old school building that has that we have to 1:00:06.440 --> 1:00:08.600 walk up five flights of stairs with all the equipment 1:00:08.840 --> 1:00:12.760 to this recording studio called what was the name of 1:00:12.800 --> 1:00:16.360 the studio, Intergalactic, which was a perfect name to start 1:00:16.400 --> 1:00:20.840 electro musical and and uh, I think with the engineer 1:00:20.880 --> 1:00:23.240 and everything, all of the costs, I think it costs 1:00:23.360 --> 1:00:26.200 eight hundred dollars to make the record, you know up there, 1:00:26.320 --> 1:00:29.240 and the studio had a fairlight synthesizer in it. We 1:00:29.280 --> 1:00:33.240 rented in eight oh eight. I remember with Arthur looking 1:00:33.280 --> 1:00:35.960 to try to because there was this guy record Lenny 1:00:36.000 --> 1:00:38.400 that I saw, you know that used to record all 1:00:38.440 --> 1:00:42.280 of the sessions he recorded, like a famous section at 1:00:42.440 --> 1:00:45.240 Lincoln High School which was Flashed the Beat. It became 1:00:45.320 --> 1:00:47.160 Flashed to set on sugar Hill. But originally it was 1:00:47.200 --> 1:00:52.880 a plate that a plate means yeah, yeah, we have 1:00:52.920 --> 1:00:53.480 to explain to you. 1:00:54.520 --> 1:00:57.560 I'm sorry, did you explain? All right? So Flash to 1:00:57.600 --> 1:01:01.280 the Beat is uh okay. You would probably not as 1:01:01.320 --> 1:01:04.760 the drum genesis of gang Stars, you know, my Steez 1:01:06.160 --> 1:01:10.120 the real but it's really grand Master Flash flashes on 1:01:10.160 --> 1:01:14.160 the bead box Plane play on a very primitive drum machine, 1:01:14.440 --> 1:01:18.080 Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five doing routines. 1:01:18.320 --> 1:01:20.200 It started out as a plate. We used to call 1:01:20.280 --> 1:01:22.560 them plates, but their acetates and those place you used 1:01:22.600 --> 1:01:25.040 to go to to get an acetate made of a 1:01:25.080 --> 1:01:27.920 tape and so some people but they'd wear out fast, 1:01:27.920 --> 1:01:29.240 but people would play acetates. 1:01:29.960 --> 1:01:33.120 And then a label independent Bonzo Mika which I have 1:01:33.200 --> 1:01:39.280 no idea, eventually released it. And that's that boot leg 1:01:39.360 --> 1:01:41.200 of a boot leg of a boot leg like that 1:01:41.400 --> 1:01:44.560 just made the rounds across the Tri State area. Gotch 1:01:45.240 --> 1:01:52.800 which when even when Mattel invented uh since since sonics yeah, 1:01:52.920 --> 1:01:56.160 back in nineteen eighty one, Like I got that for 1:01:56.200 --> 1:01:58.840 my tenth birthday so I could do pretend flash and 1:01:58.880 --> 1:02:04.360 the beat. Yeah, so in your mind you was that 1:02:04.440 --> 1:02:08.000 you're I mean, besides the whole idea of slashtone, there's 1:02:08.000 --> 1:02:12.560 a rite going on and what Eure was doing with technology. 1:02:12.640 --> 1:02:16.080 In your mind, you wanted to bring that sound to 1:02:16.920 --> 1:02:17.480 the studio. 1:02:17.880 --> 1:02:19.720 Well, I used to play craft Work on my radio 1:02:20.000 --> 1:02:22.720 station back you know, back in nineteen seventy three, so 1:02:22.800 --> 1:02:24.600 I was already into craft work. That's why it blew 1:02:24.640 --> 1:02:26.720 my mind so much that Ben Boda could play it 1:02:26.880 --> 1:02:29.960 in front of a sixteen year old black audience and 1:02:30.280 --> 1:02:32.360 get away with it work and make it work, and 1:02:32.440 --> 1:02:35.040 so you know, that's what changed the game. So that 1:02:35.160 --> 1:02:39.560 was the one that stood out as the most radical 1:02:39.640 --> 1:02:42.880 departure from what you know, black music or funk music 1:02:42.920 --> 1:02:46.320 would have been considered at that time. So you know, 1:02:47.080 --> 1:02:49.160 that's the one I thought we should go with, you know, 1:02:49.240 --> 1:02:52.600 for that, But it wasn't. It wasn't because this sounded 1:02:52.640 --> 1:02:54.760 like that, because this doesn't really sound like craft work 1:02:54.800 --> 1:02:58.320 at all. Ben Boden's style is very different than flashy style, 1:02:58.360 --> 1:03:02.200 and I really only just recently gotten to meet Flashing, 1:03:02.280 --> 1:03:05.280 you know, through the get down and being on panels 1:03:05.280 --> 1:03:08.040 with him and stuff over the last two years. You know, 1:03:08.040 --> 1:03:09.680 I don't really know him very well at all, but 1:03:09.880 --> 1:03:12.200 I have mad respect for him. You know. There were 1:03:12.240 --> 1:03:14.680 two different universes. There was the Flash universe in the 1:03:14.720 --> 1:03:18.720 Banbodi universe, and I never really entered Flash's universe. You know. 1:03:18.760 --> 1:03:21.800 But even at the time when you're constructing this, like, 1:03:21.960 --> 1:03:25.800 you have no idea that you're metaphorically speaking, getting in 1:03:25.840 --> 1:03:33.560 a delurean and going ninety years into the future because essentially, like, 1:03:33.640 --> 1:03:36.360 all the elements that are in this song will determine 1:03:38.120 --> 1:03:42.760 thirty years later with EDM music, with trap music. I mean, 1:03:42.800 --> 1:03:49.440 all the ingredients are there. And so at no point 1:03:50.000 --> 1:03:51.720 was this like a meeting like, yo, we got to 1:03:51.760 --> 1:03:53.920 go to the future because it would have been easier 1:03:53.960 --> 1:03:58.600 to just get a house band to recreate the next. 1:03:59.400 --> 1:04:01.320 Would have been more expensive though we didn't have enough 1:04:01.320 --> 1:04:02.320 money to pay for a base. 1:04:02.400 --> 1:04:04.360 See, I would have thought it was more because That's 1:04:04.400 --> 1:04:05.880 why I wanted to know how long did it take 1:04:05.920 --> 1:04:09.640 the craft because first of all, it's a seven minute song, 1:04:10.840 --> 1:04:13.680 like Who's essentially like putting the pieces together. 1:04:13.960 --> 1:04:17.080 Okay, so Jaa is the is the engineer. 1:04:17.640 --> 1:04:22.560 Engineer was always the person playing together we have learned anything. 1:04:23.000 --> 1:04:25.520 But but then there's the assistant engineer was Bob Rosa, 1:04:25.640 --> 1:04:28.080 who went on to become super famous himself as a 1:04:28.200 --> 1:04:31.640 as an engineer and a mixer, both of those guys. 1:04:31.920 --> 1:04:35.480 And then you know, we had a synth player that 1:04:35.520 --> 1:04:38.480 we brought in, you know who, who played the lines 1:04:38.520 --> 1:04:42.120 on it, and and Arthur Baker was the you know, 1:04:42.200 --> 1:04:44.480 the producer, you know, and all of us were up 1:04:44.520 --> 1:04:47.800 there just contributing whatever ideas we had using all the technology. 1:04:48.080 --> 1:04:50.120 There was a massive amount of technology. And I started 1:04:50.120 --> 1:04:52.480 playing around with this fairlight synthesizer that was in the 1:04:52.560 --> 1:04:54.840 room and it had like a light pen and a 1:04:54.880 --> 1:04:57.440 green screen you had to touch to change the things. 1:04:57.760 --> 1:05:00.120 And I was I found this orchestra sound and you 1:05:00.160 --> 1:05:04.280 could play polyphonic orchestra hits and create this giant sound. 1:05:04.640 --> 1:05:05.920 That's why I wanted to know where did that? 1:05:06.720 --> 1:05:08.880 Yeah, So I just said, can we figure out a 1:05:08.920 --> 1:05:11.240 way to use this? And then Robie John Roby was 1:05:11.280 --> 1:05:13.560 the you know guy who did all the keyboards and 1:05:13.560 --> 1:05:16.040 stuff on that and played the melodic parts, came over 1:05:16.080 --> 1:05:19.920 and did that. And so you know, we utilized that 1:05:20.000 --> 1:05:21.840 we had rented an eight o eight because we couldn't 1:05:21.840 --> 1:05:25.600 find Flashes drum machine, and we brought that in And. 1:05:25.680 --> 1:05:27.520 Did you guys think for a second, like can we 1:05:27.560 --> 1:05:28.800 ask him if we could borrow it? 1:05:28.960 --> 1:05:33.400 Or But they don't, I mean, because they were different. 1:05:33.440 --> 1:05:37.200 It was the castanover crew. That's the castanover crew. You know, 1:05:37.320 --> 1:05:40.600 it's like gang stuff, you just you don't. I wasn't 1:05:40.600 --> 1:05:41.840 going there, I mean. 1:05:41.920 --> 1:05:44.360 Like Africa. I wasn't afraid to go. 1:05:44.400 --> 1:05:46.080 And I probably wouldn't have been afraid to go to 1:05:46.160 --> 1:05:49.439 see Grandmaster Flash either, because you know, I wasn't thinking 1:05:49.480 --> 1:05:53.000 about that either. But I didn't want to create a con. 1:05:53.760 --> 1:05:55.200 To ask like, oh, I know, Flash, he'll let me 1:05:55.240 --> 1:05:55.880 borrow Yeah. 1:05:55.720 --> 1:05:57.800 I don't know. I mean I don't know that that 1:05:58.160 --> 1:06:01.160 he had. They both had relationships with Kurt with herk 1:06:02.000 --> 1:06:03.760 but I don't know what kind of relationship they had 1:06:03.760 --> 1:06:05.880 with each other. I mean, even watching the get Down, 1:06:05.920 --> 1:06:08.960 I still learned how because because Flash was you know, 1:06:09.080 --> 1:06:12.640 consulting and a producer on the get Down, so to me, 1:06:13.040 --> 1:06:15.560 I learned a little bit about you know these that 1:06:15.640 --> 1:06:18.840 was written from the Flash perspective more than the banbody perspective. 1:06:19.280 --> 1:06:21.600 You know that there are two different you know, there's 1:06:21.640 --> 1:06:24.280 a world according to def Cham where you know, Russell 1:06:24.320 --> 1:06:26.600 has his vision of what hip hop was and where 1:06:26.600 --> 1:06:28.960 it came from, because he used to hang out at 1:06:29.000 --> 1:06:32.080 Sal's place, which was disco Fever, and I never went there. 1:06:32.120 --> 1:06:34.320 I mean that was where the drug dealers went, you know, 1:06:34.760 --> 1:06:36.680 I went where the kids went. And to me, the 1:06:37.000 --> 1:06:40.200 hip hop, the dancers, the creators, they were all young, 1:06:40.360 --> 1:06:42.640 really young. The older guy the guys that were wearing 1:06:42.640 --> 1:06:45.960 suits and drinking drinking splits of moet where all, you know, 1:06:46.040 --> 1:06:49.760 and they had like, you know, velvet pictures of James 1:06:49.760 --> 1:06:50.880 Brown on the walls and stuff. 1:06:51.000 --> 1:06:54.000 By the way, were these afternoon parties or night parties? 1:06:54.280 --> 1:06:55.440 The night parties, but they were. 1:06:55.560 --> 1:06:57.600 They weren't cardon back then, that's hard. 1:06:57.640 --> 1:07:00.200 And they had day stuff two in the park. But 1:07:00.320 --> 1:07:02.360 I didn't go to those because I was working. But 1:07:02.480 --> 1:07:04.280 you know, i'd go after I worked, I'd go out 1:07:04.320 --> 1:07:08.480 at night and and and see him there. The Bronx 1:07:08.600 --> 1:07:11.600 river ones were even earlier because they were in a 1:07:11.800 --> 1:07:14.240 wreck room in in the project. 1:07:14.480 --> 1:07:16.920 All right. I own an eight o eight drum machine 1:07:17.200 --> 1:07:23.600 and it as hard as hell too program it and 1:07:24.520 --> 1:07:27.200 really get it to do what you wanted to do 1:07:27.320 --> 1:07:29.920 execution wise, Who was the eight o eight monster? Was 1:07:30.280 --> 1:07:30.800 that author? 1:07:31.520 --> 1:07:33.800 Uh? I think Roby figured it out. He was the 1:07:33.800 --> 1:07:39.800 more technically savvy guy. But and Arthur Baker both worked 1:07:39.840 --> 1:07:43.720 on it together and and figured out what they wanted 1:07:43.720 --> 1:07:45.960 to do, and they might have actually had done some 1:07:46.000 --> 1:07:50.400 programming in advance. I can't remember a lot of that 1:07:50.480 --> 1:07:55.120 happened all spontaneously there, including the you know, the guys 1:07:55.160 --> 1:07:57.800 had written their rhymes, and a lot of the stuff 1:07:57.800 --> 1:08:01.840 that happened with the rhymes was spontaneous too, like, yeah, exactly, 1:08:01.920 --> 1:08:04.560 I forgot the lyrics. How I forgot the lyrics? And 1:08:05.200 --> 1:08:07.880 you know, Arthur wanted to take it over again. I said, no, 1:08:07.960 --> 1:08:10.040 that's good, let's just leave that. You know that was better. 1:08:10.360 --> 1:08:14.280 So when it's over and said and done and mixed, 1:08:16.720 --> 1:08:19.320 are you too involved in it to really realize that 1:08:19.400 --> 1:08:23.800 you guys might have read Yeah. 1:08:23.760 --> 1:08:25.240 You never know until you play it in front of 1:08:25.240 --> 1:08:27.439 an audience. The first time we had an inkling that 1:08:27.520 --> 1:08:31.200 something was going to be crazy, you know, was when 1:08:31.240 --> 1:08:33.000 you played it in front of an audience. By the way, 1:08:33.040 --> 1:08:35.599 this was the second bout of Tommy Boy record Jazzy 1:08:35.600 --> 1:08:38.600 Sensation had come out already the year before and was 1:08:38.640 --> 1:08:42.559 a hit. It did like forty thousand copies, which for 1:08:42.680 --> 1:08:46.880 me painted by parents back alone right away. And you know, 1:08:46.920 --> 1:08:50.000 I remember, very important thing to remember is bringing that 1:08:50.040 --> 1:08:54.559 record to WHBI to Mister Magic show, because Mister Magic 1:08:54.680 --> 1:08:59.120 was the first person in the world the radio was 1:08:59.120 --> 1:09:01.760 he polite to you, He was cool, he was you know, 1:09:01.800 --> 1:09:03.519 he was he was super cool. And I went up 1:09:03.560 --> 1:09:06.000 there and there was in the fantastic Alems were up 1:09:06.040 --> 1:09:09.280 there at the same time. Wow, Twins, they're bringing their 1:09:09.320 --> 1:09:12.160 record up the same day, Hooked on Your Love or 1:09:12.160 --> 1:09:14.800 whatever on Near Records, which was their label, and you know, 1:09:14.880 --> 1:09:16.920 those guys were from the hood, and I was totally 1:09:16.960 --> 1:09:19.200 not for the hood. So I was going into you know, 1:09:19.720 --> 1:09:22.880 and they already knew Magic and I was just meeting them, 1:09:23.240 --> 1:09:26.599 and they played both records. But Benbada had such an 1:09:26.640 --> 1:09:29.240 audience in the Bronx that the phones went absolutely nuts, 1:09:29.280 --> 1:09:31.960 and I got orders for five thousand records the next Monday. 1:09:32.200 --> 1:09:35.160 That's when I knew I had something one spin ten 1:09:35.200 --> 1:09:39.400 thousand watt or fifty thousand watts station that had you know, 1:09:40.200 --> 1:09:44.200 hasidic jews. Afterwards, doing Talmut time and you know Brooklyn 1:09:44.600 --> 1:09:49.840 Rasta's doing you know whatever deep reggae before and you know, 1:09:49.920 --> 1:09:52.120 he had his little three hour splot. So it wasn't 1:09:52.160 --> 1:09:54.800 like a radio station people tuned into. It was a show, 1:09:54.920 --> 1:09:57.439 the only show, but it was the only place you 1:09:57.479 --> 1:10:01.360 could hear hip hop. So everybody listened into it. And 1:10:02.080 --> 1:10:02.720 who was into it? 1:10:02.920 --> 1:10:05.639 And at this time, like there was simple clearianicses. Even 1:10:05.680 --> 1:10:09.800 the things like with the craft Work sample, it wasn't 1:10:09.840 --> 1:10:10.719 a sample, it was played. 1:10:11.880 --> 1:10:14.280 So did the guys that did the Mexican were they like, hey, 1:10:14.720 --> 1:10:16.040 that's our melody. 1:10:15.720 --> 1:10:17.280 Or so we didn't have an issue with that one 1:10:17.680 --> 1:10:19.760 because they probably stole it from the Good to Bad 1:10:19.800 --> 1:10:22.160 and the Ugly and it was really any of morricone, 1:10:22.600 --> 1:10:25.800 you know. So I don't know what. So that's the 1:10:25.840 --> 1:10:28.160 only reason I can think that after all the years, 1:10:28.160 --> 1:10:32.120 nobody ever came out. But you know, after Planet Rock 1:10:32.200 --> 1:10:36.080 became pretty big, I got a letter from the publishing 1:10:36.120 --> 1:10:39.640 company of uh of kraft work. I didn't know. I 1:10:39.680 --> 1:10:42.599 didn't I didn't really understand copyright law. You know, I 1:10:42.680 --> 1:10:44.479 wasn't that you know, I was pretty young, I was 1:10:44.680 --> 1:10:47.720 just starting my company. I got a shock treatment when 1:10:47.760 --> 1:10:50.400 I got the letter and we had to figure out 1:10:50.400 --> 1:10:51.840 a way to settle, and you know, it was like 1:10:51.880 --> 1:10:55.759 one of the early settlements. 1:10:57.760 --> 1:10:59.479 What is your distribution game? 1:10:59.560 --> 1:10:59.640 Like? 1:10:59.800 --> 1:11:03.479 Is are you in a position now where you're getting 1:11:03.479 --> 1:11:06.760 more orders than you have and you can handle that? 1:11:06.880 --> 1:11:09.120 You can handle? Are you like I need a full 1:11:09.320 --> 1:11:10.439 time staff now to. 1:11:11.320 --> 1:11:13.960 I had two employees I had once I got the 1:11:14.040 --> 1:11:16.320 letter from craft work to hire a lawyer full time. 1:11:17.160 --> 1:11:21.800 Well not even I'm talking about to even get the record. Yeah, 1:11:21.880 --> 1:11:24.519 forty thousand records and that many records. 1:11:24.760 --> 1:11:26.960 Just tell the pressing plant we need more, you know, 1:11:27.000 --> 1:11:29.280 and you know, and we have to pay up front. 1:11:29.320 --> 1:11:31.040 So yeah, we need to get cash. So we had 1:11:31.080 --> 1:11:33.640 to go sell records directly to the record store for 1:11:33.680 --> 1:11:36.720 two dollars instead of two fifty, and we get cash 1:11:36.800 --> 1:11:38.840 so we could pay for the presses, you know, so 1:11:39.040 --> 1:11:41.400 you could turn cash flow around fast. Or we give 1:11:41.439 --> 1:11:44.160 the distributor or a discount and they would pay us 1:11:44.240 --> 1:11:47.040 up front instead of paying or half up front. There 1:11:47.040 --> 1:11:49.160 were ways in those days where you could get money 1:11:49.360 --> 1:11:51.080 if you had a hit and it was a big demand. 1:11:51.320 --> 1:11:53.360 The distributor is happy as hell because it was the 1:11:53.400 --> 1:11:56.040 big record driving it for them, and they needed to 1:11:56.080 --> 1:11:57.760 make sure that we had cash flow to pay the 1:11:57.760 --> 1:12:01.280 pressing plan, so they'd squeeze us for an extra discount 1:12:01.280 --> 1:12:03.000 and give us money upfront so we could pay the 1:12:03.000 --> 1:12:03.639 pressing plant. 1:12:03.760 --> 1:12:05.120 Were you your own distributor? 1:12:05.240 --> 1:12:05.320 Or? 1:12:05.320 --> 1:12:06.120 Who were you using? 1:12:06.800 --> 1:12:09.840 No, I had twelve distributor to cover America in those days, 1:12:09.880 --> 1:12:11.960 you had to have twelve distributors. There's we had a 1:12:11.960 --> 1:12:16.040 New York distributor, Philly distributor Universal in Philly. We had 1:12:16.080 --> 1:12:27.200 a distributor in Washington, Baltimore, Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, you know, Cleveland, Boston, Hartford. 1:12:27.840 --> 1:12:29.040 I'm telling you it's crazy. 1:12:29.320 --> 1:12:34.799 San Francisco, La Texas, and New Orleans. 1:12:35.000 --> 1:12:37.360 And then what about a nationally Shreveport is separate one 1:12:37.400 --> 1:12:39.439 in Shreeport in New Orleans? What about internationally? 1:12:39.439 --> 1:12:40.800 How did you do it? And nastually? We didn't know 1:12:40.800 --> 1:12:44.400 what we're doing. We licensed the record internationally to a 1:12:44.439 --> 1:12:48.599 PolyGram subsidiary called twenty one and they gave us whatever 1:12:48.720 --> 1:12:52.640 like a twenty thousand dollars advance for the world. 1:12:52.360 --> 1:12:58.439 As a president of the label. How are Africa, Bimbata 1:12:59.600 --> 1:13:03.880 and the Sonic Force doing this song and concert? Are they? 1:13:04.160 --> 1:13:08.000 Is there demand to bring them like is I mean, 1:13:08.040 --> 1:13:10.040 how are you guys dealing with your statics. 1:13:09.680 --> 1:13:11.479 Of Like we had to make it, we made it. 1:13:11.520 --> 1:13:13.320 How do you make it work on Well, I saw 1:13:13.360 --> 1:13:15.360 the video, but how do you make it work on stage? 1:13:16.600 --> 1:13:16.680 Like? 1:13:16.760 --> 1:13:18.720 Are we getting a band to try and recreate this? 1:13:19.000 --> 1:13:19.599 Is there? 1:13:19.840 --> 1:13:23.360 No? The bembodis DJ it Because the other thing the 1:13:23.360 --> 1:13:27.640 time we boy did was we were innovating in the 1:13:27.720 --> 1:13:29.760 records themselves. First of all, a lot of the twelve 1:13:29.800 --> 1:13:31.800 inches at the time were forty five, so we only 1:13:31.800 --> 1:13:34.400 did thirty threes. We put the beats permitted on the 1:13:34.439 --> 1:13:36.439 record so the DJs would know what the beats permitt 1:13:36.479 --> 1:13:38.479 It was, By the way, what's the beats permitted in 1:13:38.520 --> 1:13:46.240 a plant Rock? Anybody? On twenty nine? Very good? Yeah. 1:13:46.280 --> 1:13:49.880 But we also put bonus beats on that record, the 1:13:49.920 --> 1:13:52.840 first record ever that had bonus beats, because we wanted 1:13:52.840 --> 1:13:55.599 to give DJs tools because we knew who our audience was. 1:13:56.000 --> 1:13:58.320 Sugar Hill didn't think that they thought their audience was 1:13:58.360 --> 1:14:02.000 record bised. We thought our audience DJs, and the DJs 1:14:02.120 --> 1:14:05.320 became record biers, and record biers followed started buying with 1:14:05.360 --> 1:14:08.040 the DJs. But even though they weren't DJs, so you 1:14:08.040 --> 1:14:10.759 know twelve inches, which were just a DJ market until 1:14:10.800 --> 1:14:14.720 like seventy eight or seventy nine started becoming Planet. I 1:14:14.760 --> 1:14:20.040 think the first record that really probably went multi platinum 1:14:20.360 --> 1:14:24.640 off twelve inch was probably Wrap His Delight or Heartbeat 1:14:25.439 --> 1:14:26.719 by Tony Gardner. 1:14:27.000 --> 1:14:30.920 Do you know the Heartbeat story with Larry Levan? I 1:14:31.000 --> 1:14:33.160 wanted to say this earlier when he mentioned down tempo 1:14:33.479 --> 1:14:38.320 how he played So Larry Levan defiantly oh yeah. 1:14:38.200 --> 1:14:40.280 Yeah, yeah, how he played it like twenty times in 1:14:40.320 --> 1:14:41.320 a row. 1:14:40.880 --> 1:14:43.519 Well they said three hours, but I feel like he 1:14:46.320 --> 1:14:48.280 it might have been under twenty times in a row. 1:14:48.439 --> 1:14:51.240 That's how he broke it at Paradise. Yeah, he literally 1:14:51.320 --> 1:14:53.519 was going to force them to dance to down tempo 1:14:54.000 --> 1:14:58.160 as opposed to disco, and their thing was to have 1:14:58.240 --> 1:15:00.920 a sit in. So for the first or five times 1:15:01.200 --> 1:15:03.599 people were sitting under dance. His audience was like, no, 1:15:03.640 --> 1:15:07.439 we're leaving, and Larry Levan was like, no, I'm I'm 1:15:07.520 --> 1:15:10.479 the controller here. You don't you know you're not hold 1:15:10.520 --> 1:15:10.960 me hosted. 1:15:11.040 --> 1:15:11.519 Don't try that. 1:15:11.560 --> 1:15:12.479 Don't try to sell me. 1:15:12.520 --> 1:15:14.000 A few people can get away with that. 1:15:14.280 --> 1:15:16.160 He was like, I will, I will play what you 1:15:16.200 --> 1:15:18.360 want to hear after I see them dance to this, 1:15:18.600 --> 1:15:21.280 and so after the twentieth time, they're like, all right, 1:15:21.360 --> 1:15:22.960 damn it, and then they started and then they have 1:15:23.000 --> 1:15:27.839 been He literally stock him, cindered them into. 1:15:27.479 --> 1:15:29.320 That's good to know though, but that heart that heartbeat 1:15:29.320 --> 1:15:31.800 record was the transition and so that is not it's 1:15:31.840 --> 1:15:33.439 not disco, but it is downbeat. 1:15:33.439 --> 1:15:37.400 And then yeah Tuesday, Yeah, like he literally forced them 1:15:37.400 --> 1:15:40.800 by gunpoint to you know, it was radical at the 1:15:40.800 --> 1:15:44.240 time because it was like ninety one bpms, where the 1:15:44.280 --> 1:15:47.920 average record was disco fied and so yeah. 1:15:47.840 --> 1:15:50.240 Yeah, but and he already played dow tempo compared to 1:15:50.800 --> 1:15:53.679 the White Gate you know discos where they were playing 1:15:53.680 --> 1:15:56.519 one hundred and twenty ninety thirty so Africa. So the 1:15:56.560 --> 1:15:58.160 other thing we did was we had an instrumental B 1:15:58.320 --> 1:16:00.880 side and a version that had Tina Bee on it, 1:16:00.920 --> 1:16:03.200 which was Arthur's wife, Tina Baker. 1:16:03.280 --> 1:16:07.360 Okay she be yeah, oh crap, I did not know. 1:16:08.720 --> 1:16:12.879 And that allowed us to get play on in clubs 1:16:12.880 --> 1:16:15.280 that were gay clubs because it was the right tempo 1:16:15.560 --> 1:16:16.960 and they weren't going to play a record with a 1:16:17.040 --> 1:16:19.719 rap on it. So that so our record got played 1:16:20.040 --> 1:16:24.479 everywhere everyone could play our record. Also, you know, punk 1:16:24.560 --> 1:16:26.840 rock was fast, so a lot of the you know, 1:16:26.880 --> 1:16:29.880 people who liked to play rock music couldn't play early 1:16:29.960 --> 1:16:31.559 hip hop because it was too slow for what they 1:16:31.560 --> 1:16:33.880 were playing, but they could play Planet Rock. So Planet 1:16:33.960 --> 1:16:37.160 Rock was a breakthrough record on so many levels. Also, 1:16:37.320 --> 1:16:40.400 Latin kids went nuts, Asian kids went nuts because this 1:16:40.479 --> 1:16:44.320 whole you know, this was the Pa pac Man Asteroids 1:16:44.439 --> 1:16:47.160 versus pac Man kind of period where people were hearing 1:16:47.200 --> 1:16:50.960 these electronic sounds in video games and going crazy over 1:16:50.960 --> 1:16:54.880 them and you know, hearing electro music. We also had 1:16:55.280 --> 1:16:58.040 real support in Detroit, which was like the funk capital 1:16:58.040 --> 1:17:00.519 of the world, from the Electrifying Mojo, who was the 1:17:00.560 --> 1:17:03.599 big DJ who broke all the early George Clinton stuff 1:17:03.680 --> 1:17:07.080 on the air and he was god in Michigan and 1:17:07.160 --> 1:17:09.360 so you know, he broke it through the whole funk 1:17:09.840 --> 1:17:13.639 you know scenario. So we got really great support from 1:17:13.680 --> 1:17:16.200 the record because we put elements in it that were 1:17:16.280 --> 1:17:19.400 inclusive that look, this record isn't just for the Bronx. 1:17:19.600 --> 1:17:22.519 This record is for everybody. If you're gay and into 1:17:22.600 --> 1:17:25.280 euro disco, play the B side, you know, if you're 1:17:25.320 --> 1:17:27.400 having trouble getting into it, use the bonus beats to 1:17:27.439 --> 1:17:30.120 get into it. We gave everybody everything they needed, and 1:17:30.160 --> 1:17:33.360 to me, that was a breakthrough part of the record too. 1:17:33.400 --> 1:17:35.080 It made it easier for the record to catch on 1:17:35.120 --> 1:17:36.799 when you only have two employees in the company. 1:17:37.360 --> 1:17:37.880 Jo Top. 1:17:37.960 --> 1:17:39.880 Not to jump the gun, but because you keep talking 1:17:39.880 --> 1:17:42.479 about how well versed you were on the diversity of 1:17:42.479 --> 1:17:45.360 the gay community, is that when you like ran into 1:17:45.439 --> 1:17:47.559 like a young RuPaul, because I mean that's a person 1:17:47.600 --> 1:17:48.400 of a certain age. 1:17:48.479 --> 1:17:49.680 I was just curious. 1:17:49.320 --> 1:17:50.360 Because I was much later. 1:17:50.680 --> 1:17:52.720 Paul was right. 1:17:52.760 --> 1:17:54.400 I didn't know because he's certain. 1:17:55.360 --> 1:17:57.880 He used to intern at the New Music Seminar for us. 1:17:58.240 --> 1:18:01.360 He used to perform perform at a show at the 1:18:01.360 --> 1:18:05.439 Saint at the New Music Seminar once, you know, uh, 1:18:05.520 --> 1:18:10.040 and he was an amazing performer. But you know, Monica really, 1:18:10.160 --> 1:18:12.599 you know, Monica Lynch was the president of Tommy Boy, 1:18:12.640 --> 1:18:15.439 actually not me, and she, you know, she was the 1:18:15.479 --> 1:18:18.080 one that brought that in. And you know, because she 1:18:18.160 --> 1:18:20.920 understood that, you know, she was came from Chicago and 1:18:20.960 --> 1:18:23.880 she came out of that culture, you know, the the 1:18:24.360 --> 1:18:26.439 gay disco, the ball culture and stuff like. 1:18:26.360 --> 1:18:28.599 That, coming out of a Planet Rock. 1:18:28.680 --> 1:18:30.680 A lot of the stuff y'all followed up with I 1:18:30.680 --> 1:18:32.519 guess it fell under like the I guess theyould call 1:18:32.600 --> 1:18:35.439 it freestyle at the time. Was it like the Latin 1:18:35.520 --> 1:18:38.240 hip hops? Yeah, Latin hip hop? Who was first they. 1:18:38.200 --> 1:18:41.280 Called it Latin hip hop? Then they called it freestyle? Okay, okay, gotcha? 1:18:41.800 --> 1:18:43.000 Who was some of those artists? 1:18:43.080 --> 1:18:44.880 T K A. That was the big one. We had 1:18:44.960 --> 1:18:48.920 K seven t K A. So the K K seven 1:18:49.000 --> 1:18:51.000 is the K and t K A Tony K. 1:18:52.000 --> 1:18:54.519 Society, I mean didn't really start with Information Society. 1:18:54.560 --> 1:18:58.280 Was the Information Society which was salabout Yellow who had 1:18:58.280 --> 1:19:01.240 the fever, had a club called it Devil's nest Alnido 1:19:01.280 --> 1:19:04.680 del Diablo in the Bronx also, and Louis Vega used 1:19:04.680 --> 1:19:08.120 to spin there, and Louis Vega discovered this record and 1:19:08.360 --> 1:19:12.240 brought them in from Minnesota. These guys are like Vikings 1:19:12.240 --> 1:19:15.280 from Minnesota, and they came they came in the you know, 1:19:15.360 --> 1:19:17.439 this white group came in and played an all Puerto 1:19:17.479 --> 1:19:19.679 Rican club in the Bronx and. 1:19:19.800 --> 1:19:23.679 They were white. Never saw the video, not only white 1:19:25.240 --> 1:19:26.479 way original white. 1:19:27.760 --> 1:19:29.400 They weans from. 1:19:29.520 --> 1:19:31.840 You know, because Silent Warning like all that stuff just 1:19:31.880 --> 1:19:34.880 sounded and all the Puerto Rican kids in my high school. 1:19:35.200 --> 1:19:37.080 I just thought they were Puerto Rican because I guess 1:19:40.000 --> 1:19:40.559 Puerto Rican. 1:19:41.400 --> 1:19:44.240 So yeah, So that was probably eighty four, like two 1:19:44.320 --> 1:19:47.679 years after playing Rock, or maybe late eighty three because 1:19:47.760 --> 1:19:49.840 Running was the first record which used a eight o 1:19:49.960 --> 1:19:53.320 eight in it. Also, so when you know it was 1:19:53.360 --> 1:19:56.439 discovered and Louis played, these guys thought they were playing 1:19:56.479 --> 1:19:57.880 to a rock odings because they thought they were a 1:19:57.960 --> 1:20:01.120 rock band and when they saw they didn't know who 1:20:01.120 --> 1:20:03.080 their audience was, and we sort of had to do 1:20:03.160 --> 1:20:06.280 an adjustment so they can understand you can try and 1:20:06.320 --> 1:20:10.120 play rock music or you can embrace this this audience here. 1:20:10.240 --> 1:20:11.839 It was really amazing to see. 1:20:11.760 --> 1:20:15.920 Well imagine that a group going against their will, playing, 1:20:16.040 --> 1:20:19.160 playing and surviving off audience. They who would ever have 1:20:19.240 --> 1:20:21.439 thought that would ever happen to a group. Again, I 1:20:21.479 --> 1:20:25.160 feel as though everything that you've brought to the table, 1:20:26.240 --> 1:20:29.439 uh from Tommy Boy Records, especially in the first ten 1:20:29.520 --> 1:20:35.679 years of the label, was a foot forward as far 1:20:35.800 --> 1:20:38.240 as the culture and innovation, and of course you know 1:20:38.240 --> 1:20:41.519 you are established that as the natural contrarian, you were 1:20:41.520 --> 1:20:43.639 trying to go to the places other people weren't going. 1:20:45.680 --> 1:20:51.160 And I guess probably the second most notable signing of 1:20:51.200 --> 1:20:59.120 your label ghost. That's no the ford the MDS tell 1:20:59.160 --> 1:21:02.840 me about. Well, first of all, changing the four sim 1:21:02.920 --> 1:21:06.000 C's from Staten Island to the four m. 1:21:06.040 --> 1:21:07.960 DS was doctor Rock and the four sim C's. 1:21:08.040 --> 1:21:13.120 Yeah, so how did you how did you run into 1:21:13.120 --> 1:21:17.400 them and and sort of groomed them and like did 1:21:17.400 --> 1:21:20.639 they already come package as they were swetters? And because 1:21:20.640 --> 1:21:21.519 I feel like that's. 1:21:21.360 --> 1:21:24.600 You, that's me, you know, I already said that, you know, 1:21:24.640 --> 1:21:29.479 but I saw I saw him perform at one of 1:21:29.520 --> 1:21:32.920 Africa Bambadi's Zulu Nation events. They were Zulu. I mean 1:21:32.920 --> 1:21:37.160 there were people that were affiliated with the Zulunation in Olbers. 1:21:37.160 --> 1:21:39.640 They're from Staten Island, so you know, all of the 1:21:39.640 --> 1:21:41.920 Staten Island hip hop that came out of Staten Island 1:21:42.360 --> 1:21:44.880 grew up on four m DS. And you know, they 1:21:44.920 --> 1:21:47.280 had Jesse d who was the singer who used to 1:21:47.320 --> 1:21:50.519 do Michael Jackson invitations on the on the Staten Island 1:21:50.560 --> 1:21:55.000 ferry and raise money that way. And yeah, they were 1:21:55.120 --> 1:21:57.360 but they were super talented and I heard him sing 1:21:57.400 --> 1:22:00.800 a song that blew my mind at this show. It 1:22:00.840 --> 1:22:04.080 was hip hop and hip hop beats, but they did 1:22:04.120 --> 1:22:08.639 this beautiful four part harmony or five part harmony routine 1:22:08.760 --> 1:22:15.000 to the f Troop theme song, which was really amazing for. 1:22:15.080 --> 1:22:19.479 Our listeners out there. Like a lot of early hip 1:22:19.479 --> 1:22:26.080 hop routines were just based on TVs do ron Stone, 1:22:26.160 --> 1:22:32.360 Cowboy and and by yeah exactly. So a lot of 1:22:32.360 --> 1:22:36.280 these early hip hop routines are based on uh u 1:22:36.400 --> 1:22:41.800 h F whatever that is u HF channel uh reruns 1:22:41.800 --> 1:22:47.320 and about the weird out who wants to be on 1:22:47.400 --> 1:22:50.640 Quest Love Supreme way he bring it? Yeo, yeah, I will. 1:22:51.120 --> 1:22:54.559 So back to the Foursome ds. So you saw them 1:22:54.640 --> 1:22:56.639 do this routine and you. 1:22:56.920 --> 1:22:59.640 Yeah, I thought that, you know, they were super commercial 1:22:59.800 --> 1:23:03.719 and and I thought that this concept of harmony over 1:23:04.320 --> 1:23:08.559 hip hop beats might be another departure point because you 1:23:08.600 --> 1:23:13.320 have to understand also at this time, the DJ was 1:23:13.360 --> 1:23:16.080 the main person in a rap group, not the rappers, 1:23:16.479 --> 1:23:19.640 and the DJ usually had the musical idea and their 1:23:19.720 --> 1:23:23.520 name always was first it was Africa Bembada and Grandmester 1:23:23.560 --> 1:23:26.639 Flesh and Eric B. And you know it was because 1:23:26.920 --> 1:23:29.960 the person with the records was the master. You know, 1:23:30.280 --> 1:23:34.479 the the DJs were fungible, I mean the MC's were fungible. 1:23:34.520 --> 1:23:38.439 There's everybody wanted to be an MC. Also didn't cost 1:23:38.439 --> 1:23:40.479 money to be a MC. It costs money you had 1:23:40.479 --> 1:23:42.680 to invest to have the equipment, the records and all 1:23:42.720 --> 1:23:45.680 that stuff. So they were the guys, and often they 1:23:45.720 --> 1:23:48.639 came with a musical idea. Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh 1:23:48.680 --> 1:23:52.320 Prince and again, you know, so these are the guys 1:23:52.320 --> 1:23:54.479 and then things. There was a point in the music 1:23:54.520 --> 1:23:58.120 industry where that changed and they went to outside producers 1:23:58.960 --> 1:24:01.200 and that was sort of a to me, a sea 1:24:01.280 --> 1:24:04.920 change in the music business. But timmy boys strength came 1:24:04.960 --> 1:24:08.479 from self contained groups that had a sound of their own. 1:24:08.600 --> 1:24:13.639 That came where the vision came from the DJ slash producer. 1:24:14.280 --> 1:24:16.320 You know, whether they were a great producer or not 1:24:16.560 --> 1:24:18.880 was something else. But they usually had a musical vision 1:24:19.120 --> 1:24:21.600 that we had to interpret. You know, Baan Bada had 1:24:21.640 --> 1:24:23.519 a musical vision. Arthur Baker interpreted it. 1:24:24.680 --> 1:24:30.519 Where they easily sold on the Frankie Lineman approach of. 1:24:30.960 --> 1:24:33.160 Yeah, they were open to whatever. At the point they 1:24:33.160 --> 1:24:35.160 wanted a record deal and they weren't going to get 1:24:35.160 --> 1:24:36.800 a record dealer. It wasn't like there was a lot 1:24:36.800 --> 1:24:39.360 of competition. Maybe they would have thought it, but I, 1:24:39.400 --> 1:24:41.120 you know, I said, look, you know, it's the same 1:24:41.160 --> 1:24:44.639 street corners. There's a great story here. Let's do this thing. 1:24:44.960 --> 1:24:49.160 And also maybe we can you know, get girls really 1:24:49.200 --> 1:24:52.800 into this group, because you know girls, you know, and 1:24:52.840 --> 1:24:56.400 so that would be, you know, a way to expose 1:24:56.439 --> 1:24:58.320 it and break it. And also I was dealing with 1:24:58.439 --> 1:25:00.559 radio because I was the guy actually called Radio two, 1:25:00.960 --> 1:25:03.439 So I was working radio and talking to radio DJs 1:25:03.439 --> 1:25:05.000 trying to get them to play hip hop, which they 1:25:05.000 --> 1:25:07.599 didn't want to play. They hated it. They you know, 1:25:07.680 --> 1:25:11.080 if they played hip hop, they had one slot on 1:25:11.120 --> 1:25:13.600 their playlist or two slots on their playlist. So it 1:25:13.640 --> 1:25:15.600 was very hard to get them to play it. And 1:25:15.680 --> 1:25:18.040 even though I didn't have any major label competition for 1:25:18.080 --> 1:25:20.479 ten years, during this period of time, there's plenty of 1:25:20.600 --> 1:25:23.960 indie label competition. We were all chasing the same guys 1:25:24.040 --> 1:25:28.439 with hip hop records, and you know, the record had 1:25:28.479 --> 1:25:31.360 to be really good. So you know, I thought that 1:25:31.680 --> 1:25:35.080 a record that was allot, you know, a vocal record, 1:25:35.160 --> 1:25:38.000 would would not be considered a hip hop record. But 1:25:38.160 --> 1:25:40.120 because it was on Tommy Boy and we had hip 1:25:40.120 --> 1:25:43.240 hop hits, they didn't even listen to the I can't 1:25:43.240 --> 1:25:44.920 play this hip hop record. It's not a hip hop 1:25:44.960 --> 1:25:47.040 listen to the record you could play. 1:25:47.479 --> 1:25:50.120 At what point did crush groove come into the picture 1:25:50.240 --> 1:25:52.120 for them and did it have like an effect on 1:25:53.240 --> 1:25:54.160 the records? 1:25:54.479 --> 1:25:56.680 Actually they were right. 1:25:58.560 --> 1:26:03.960 I remember O n and I saw the eighty five. 1:26:04.120 --> 1:26:04.920 I saw it in the theater. 1:26:05.840 --> 1:26:09.479 Call it eighty six indo eighty five eighty beginning eighty six. 1:26:10.320 --> 1:26:13.120 Yeah, I think I think for some d's performance and 1:26:13.200 --> 1:26:16.760 rapping was the that was that was the highlight of 1:26:16.880 --> 1:26:17.240 the movie. 1:26:17.240 --> 1:26:20.280 Of the film, or Griffin Dunn's rap at the end, 1:26:20.520 --> 1:26:21.320 the horrible rap. 1:26:22.000 --> 1:26:23.719 What was the But they weren't, I mean, they weren't 1:26:23.720 --> 1:26:26.479 cush with tender love was. They did It's and force 1:26:26.520 --> 1:26:27.439 scratching and. 1:26:27.360 --> 1:26:29.640 That was earlier. Rapping was first, So that must have 1:26:29.640 --> 1:26:31.000 been eighty four eighty five. 1:26:31.040 --> 1:26:33.040 Yeah, I mean It's and for scratches, I mean, let 1:26:33.040 --> 1:26:35.760 Me Love You was it was a good introduction. But 1:26:35.920 --> 1:26:38.040 really I know that b boys got to open on 1:26:38.760 --> 1:26:40.960 It's and for scratch and even when they opened for 1:26:41.000 --> 1:26:45.200 a new edition. I've seen three full force new edition 1:26:45.280 --> 1:26:47.879 shows and I always felt like full force or forced 1:26:48.280 --> 1:26:54.120 my god, I said, full force cracker for some ds 1:26:55.080 --> 1:26:57.960 opening for a new edition, I could tell that they 1:26:57.960 --> 1:27:02.800 were out for blood, like they performed harder, and you 1:27:02.800 --> 1:27:04.200 know they were doing all the invitations. 1:27:04.280 --> 1:27:05.520 Yeah, they have dance routines. 1:27:06.280 --> 1:27:08.599 Yeah, way way past. I mean they were rhyming, they 1:27:08.600 --> 1:27:14.080 were singing, they were imitating Michael JACKSONI wack costumes. 1:27:14.120 --> 1:27:16.880 We have to talk about I think that was me 1:27:16.960 --> 1:27:17.519 on the record. 1:27:17.760 --> 1:27:23.840 That was you exclusive. I don't know my sound effects 1:27:23.880 --> 1:27:28.880 this stuff, just that part, Okay, I see so well. Yeah, 1:27:28.880 --> 1:27:34.559 because I always wanted to know why did they By 1:27:34.600 --> 1:27:37.920 the time Chilling came out and Tender Love had had 1:27:37.960 --> 1:27:38.400 made noise. 1:27:38.479 --> 1:27:40.760 Tender Love was like the first top ten record for 1:27:40.840 --> 1:27:42.080 Jimmy jam and Terry Lewis. 1:27:42.160 --> 1:27:47.080 Yeah, it was, so were they because the cover of 1:27:47.160 --> 1:27:51.920 Chilling was like them in Offers and they was chilling. 1:27:54.120 --> 1:27:57.840 I know literally that. But were they telling you, as 1:27:57.960 --> 1:28:00.920 an executive, like, we don't want to go the bubblegum? 1:28:01.680 --> 1:28:03.960 We were over that right away because it didn't work. 1:28:04.040 --> 1:28:06.280 We tried it, We tried to connect to that audience 1:28:06.320 --> 1:28:08.080 and it didn't connect, so we went a new way. 1:28:08.360 --> 1:28:11.520 My dad actually liked that. He liked the Chilling record 1:28:12.000 --> 1:28:14.519 because I had to Let Me Love You twelve inch 1:28:14.680 --> 1:28:17.280 and it looked the way that the photo was positioned, 1:28:17.840 --> 1:28:20.559 it looked just like the Frankie Liman thing. So my 1:28:20.680 --> 1:28:24.400 dad instantly got, oh, that's what they're they're coming from, 1:28:24.439 --> 1:28:27.559 and so damn that did he like the music when 1:28:27.600 --> 1:28:32.080 you listen to it? Forgive me, it was my It 1:28:32.120 --> 1:28:34.800 was my music, not a music. But I definitely know 1:28:34.880 --> 1:28:37.160 that harmonies at least, you know, I know that he 1:28:37.240 --> 1:28:39.240 saw the cover and was like, oh, that's Frankie Lion. 1:28:39.360 --> 1:28:41.000 By the way. He broke with the cover too. His 1:28:41.040 --> 1:28:43.040 first record was the record somebody had done before. 1:28:43.840 --> 1:28:46.599 Really No, no, no, I mean literally the photo. 1:28:46.960 --> 1:28:49.000 Yeah, I know what you're talking the cover, Yeah. 1:28:48.960 --> 1:28:53.759 With climmcfetter, that's what you mean. Who orchestrated them getting 1:28:53.760 --> 1:28:55.960 with jam and Lewis? Like was that a thing for 1:28:56.040 --> 1:28:57.200 the Cruss Grooves soundtrack? 1:28:57.520 --> 1:28:57.720 Yeah? 1:28:57.920 --> 1:29:00.680 Also, this time you're about to go to One Brothers right, Like, 1:29:00.760 --> 1:29:01.799 at what point are. 1:29:01.720 --> 1:29:04.320 You in the middle of the in the middle of 1:29:04.439 --> 1:29:06.760 making that. We had already made that record. Then I 1:29:06.800 --> 1:29:09.639 was talking to my Austin about about doing a joint 1:29:09.680 --> 1:29:12.880 venture with Warner Brothers where we maintained our independence, but 1:29:13.000 --> 1:29:14.520 we were half owned by Warner. 1:29:14.520 --> 1:29:20.120 M So did you were you executive of the Crush 1:29:20.160 --> 1:29:22.920 Groove soundtrack because it was on Warner Brothers. 1:29:23.160 --> 1:29:25.280 Had we had one record on there and it was 1:29:25.280 --> 1:29:26.960 gonna the album is going to be on Warner Brothers, 1:29:27.000 --> 1:29:29.000 but this was going to be the single that drove 1:29:29.080 --> 1:29:31.120 the album. So this was the single that was going 1:29:31.200 --> 1:29:33.400 to sell their album for them, so that there was 1:29:33.439 --> 1:29:37.040 a natural conversation anyway to talk to him about doing 1:29:37.040 --> 1:29:38.240 something bigger together. 1:29:39.000 --> 1:29:41.280 So was that song ever officially on A four C 1:29:41.320 --> 1:29:42.440 and d's album. 1:29:42.840 --> 1:29:43.519 It was on Chilling. 1:29:44.160 --> 1:29:47.519 It eventually became on Chilling, but after the Fat Got You. 1:29:47.800 --> 1:29:50.519 But I thought because you were had one foot in 1:29:50.560 --> 1:29:52.840 Warner and one foot at Tommy Boy, that. 1:29:53.560 --> 1:29:55.880 Didn't the single come out on both labels though like 1:29:55.920 --> 1:29:59.920 the Warner, it wasn't the twelve inch on time. 1:30:00.280 --> 1:30:02.360 Yeah. The deal that we made with Warner was all 1:30:02.400 --> 1:30:04.320 the twelve inches came through Tommy Boy and they had 1:30:04.320 --> 1:30:08.800 the albums. So actually Warner released the fourth MD's album Chill, 1:30:08.840 --> 1:30:12.600 and I think came through Warner and we had the 1:30:12.640 --> 1:30:14.760 twelve inches. That was the deal. We kept the twelve 1:30:14.800 --> 1:30:17.439 inches and they kept the forty five's in the albums, 1:30:17.640 --> 1:30:19.280 and that was important. That was important for you to 1:30:19.320 --> 1:30:21.120 keep the twelve inches for the branding. And also we 1:30:21.120 --> 1:30:23.760 were independent. We want we also had international We could 1:30:23.840 --> 1:30:27.360 make international deals. We had our own licensing ability to 1:30:27.439 --> 1:30:32.360 make licenses, We did our own promotion. They did promotion too. 1:30:32.479 --> 1:30:34.720 But you know, one of the reasons I did a 1:30:34.760 --> 1:30:36.960 deal with Warner was I wanted access to top forty 1:30:37.040 --> 1:30:40.479 radio and they had access to the Indie network and 1:30:40.520 --> 1:30:43.880 the Indian network. We couldn't. It was so expensive and 1:30:44.280 --> 1:30:46.240 we were so small we didn't have the leverage or 1:30:46.280 --> 1:30:50.120 the scale to access it. So once we made the deal, 1:30:50.160 --> 1:30:54.400 the pale investigations happened and Warner stopped choosing indies, so 1:30:54.520 --> 1:30:56.439 I never got that advantage, which was one of the 1:30:56.479 --> 1:30:59.680 reasons I made. Well year did that stop eight right 1:31:00.200 --> 1:31:00.679 eighty six? 1:31:00.760 --> 1:31:02.120 Right when we moved over there? 1:31:03.040 --> 1:31:05.280 Who knew? 1:31:08.640 --> 1:31:14.120 So how do you how do you curb the enthusiasm 1:31:14.320 --> 1:31:19.280 of an artist signed to the label that you know, 1:31:19.320 --> 1:31:24.759 because because by this point, you know, Thriller has gone 1:31:24.800 --> 1:31:28.559 full bloom and you see the potential of Michael Jackson 1:31:28.600 --> 1:31:33.360 selling forty million units and Prince is out there like now, 1:31:33.439 --> 1:31:37.240 black artists are finally getting there just due to live 1:31:37.240 --> 1:31:39.759 in the or at least the perception of it, because 1:31:39.920 --> 1:31:41.720 I know a lot of that is smoking mirrors. So 1:31:43.640 --> 1:31:47.000 you're on an independent label and knowing what I know, 1:31:47.200 --> 1:31:51.240 I know that the expectation factor of some certain artists 1:31:52.760 --> 1:31:56.160 are way high and above what the reality is like. 1:31:56.240 --> 1:32:01.080 They don't take into account. You have to do a 1:32:01.120 --> 1:32:04.679 show in Cleveland and it's five of you, So that's 1:32:04.680 --> 1:32:07.600 hotel rooms and there's a tour manager. What do you 1:32:07.680 --> 1:32:15.799 mean rooms? Okay, well, I mean, well just the idea. 1:32:16.000 --> 1:32:17.840 Look, we could drive back from Cleveland. We don't need 1:32:17.880 --> 1:32:18.360 to stay over. 1:32:19.720 --> 1:32:23.360 Yeah, I see, I'm taking my nineteen ninety five life 1:32:23.600 --> 1:32:26.320 this before. But you know it's. 1:32:26.280 --> 1:32:27.679 Business was ruined by then. 1:32:29.560 --> 1:32:33.479 Show. You never knew Hunger. I know. I'm so glad 1:32:33.479 --> 1:32:37.240 I got on the complete of that train boy, But 1:32:38.240 --> 1:32:42.520 how do you what's what's an what's an artist expectation? 1:32:44.680 --> 1:32:49.400 Especially an artist that's not aware of Hey, I gotta 1:32:49.439 --> 1:32:53.840 pay for this Billboard magazine ad to make sure that 1:32:53.880 --> 1:32:57.040 you're promoting, and that costs forty thousand dollars. I gotta 1:32:58.080 --> 1:33:00.639 you know. I'm sure that you've been on the many 1:33:00.720 --> 1:33:04.040 ends of an argument of an artist versus record exec 1:33:04.960 --> 1:33:05.880 Weren't we rich. 1:33:06.680 --> 1:33:09.080 Only after the majors got into the business and fucked 1:33:09.080 --> 1:33:12.320 it up for everybody else. It wasn't in the in 1:33:12.360 --> 1:33:15.280 the eighties, that was never an issue. We had to 1:33:15.320 --> 1:33:18.040 figure out, how do The issue isn't to get on 1:33:18.040 --> 1:33:21.120 the charts. The issue is to get exposure. Exposure leads 1:33:21.120 --> 1:33:23.719 to sales, that's it. Word of mouth leads to sales. 1:33:23.760 --> 1:33:25.800 Those are the things that we cared about. So how 1:33:25.840 --> 1:33:29.439 do we focus on maximizing exposure? So Tommy Boy invented 1:33:29.479 --> 1:33:33.759 the sticker. Tommy Boy invent started doing front page strips 1:33:33.800 --> 1:33:38.080 and billboard on every record we released. We treated twelve 1:33:38.120 --> 1:33:40.080 inches like albums. We worked them as if they were 1:33:40.080 --> 1:33:43.840 album projects. You know. We also worked our artists internationally 1:33:44.720 --> 1:33:47.640 like they weren't. We did the back page of the 1:33:47.680 --> 1:33:50.080 Source every week. We controlled the back page of the 1:33:50.120 --> 1:33:53.240 Source for ten years. We advertised in the Source when 1:33:53.240 --> 1:33:55.720 it was still staple together, tip sheet and out of 1:33:55.720 --> 1:33:56.680 Harvard University. 1:33:56.720 --> 1:33:58.720 How do you control the bat means that nobody can 1:33:58.760 --> 1:33:59.880 outbid you on the back. 1:34:00.160 --> 1:34:02.960 We had a subscription. We paid for it all we 1:34:03.040 --> 1:34:05.160 had it, you know, we paid in a FIR three 1:34:05.200 --> 1:34:07.240 and if in advance when they needed cash flow, and 1:34:07.280 --> 1:34:10.400 then we just we we had a contract with him 1:34:10.439 --> 1:34:13.760 for the back page. So you know, there were things 1:34:13.800 --> 1:34:15.840 that we you know, there are things that Tommy Boy did. 1:34:15.920 --> 1:34:21.320 You know when Greg Mack left the radio station, well 1:34:21.400 --> 1:34:24.600 when he when he left Houston where he was a 1:34:24.680 --> 1:34:27.160 hip hop radio DJ in Houston and we knew him 1:34:27.160 --> 1:34:29.559 and supported him. He came to K Day and he 1:34:29.680 --> 1:34:32.000 remembered that we supported a show a K Day. We 1:34:32.040 --> 1:34:36.639 supported you know, everybody's you know who had a hip 1:34:36.680 --> 1:34:40.000 hop publication when they started, and as their businesses grew, 1:34:40.040 --> 1:34:42.559 they remembered that we were always there at the beginning. 1:34:42.960 --> 1:34:46.080 So there's massive love for Tommy Boy all, you know, 1:34:46.120 --> 1:34:49.640 from the beginning because we nurtured everyone. And you know, 1:34:49.800 --> 1:34:51.920 there's very few people you could talk to in the 1:34:51.960 --> 1:34:54.479 business that don't have love for Tommy Boy, which is 1:34:54.640 --> 1:34:57.080 not a usual thing in hip hop, which is the 1:34:57.120 --> 1:34:58.360 world of haters mostly. 1:35:00.920 --> 1:35:05.479 That sound bite for Yeah World Wood that was on 1:35:05.520 --> 1:35:08.559 the Forces D's Unsung, they told a story I don't 1:35:08.560 --> 1:35:11.640 want to get your side of it about the they 1:35:11.640 --> 1:35:14.640 wanted to work with Teddy Riley and Teddy Rally was 1:35:14.680 --> 1:35:16.680 going to do tracks on I can't remember it was 1:35:16.720 --> 1:35:19.680 the I think it was maybe the third album and 1:35:19.720 --> 1:35:21.880 the label just didn't want to pay for it because 1:35:22.000 --> 1:35:23.360 Teddy was charging at that time. 1:35:23.439 --> 1:35:26.720 What was Teddy something that Yeah, exactly. 1:35:26.320 --> 1:35:30.320 It was exorbitant, But what was your what's your side 1:35:30.360 --> 1:35:33.439 of that? And was it something that just didn't make 1:35:33.479 --> 1:35:36.600 sense or how did you determine what to pay for it? 1:35:36.680 --> 1:35:38.840 I don't know, you know, I can't remember specifically. I 1:35:38.880 --> 1:35:42.880 do remember trying to get him, but availability and the 1:35:43.320 --> 1:35:45.759 kind of you know, like, would I pay fifty thousand 1:35:45.800 --> 1:35:48.280 dollars to clear a sample on one track? No, I'm 1:35:48.280 --> 1:35:51.000 not doing that, but you know Kanye will do that everybody. 1:35:51.280 --> 1:35:53.880 You know, there's economics in the music business, and the 1:35:53.960 --> 1:35:58.200 difference between indies and majors is the indies are have 1:35:58.280 --> 1:35:59.800 to make a profit or they go out of business. 1:36:00.000 --> 1:36:01.880 They just don't have to make a profit. They've been 1:36:01.880 --> 1:36:04.600 losing money for ten years. They're still here. They're not 1:36:04.680 --> 1:36:06.720 you know, they don't have to and their business is 1:36:06.720 --> 1:36:09.679 based on market share. So they will spend ten dollars 1:36:09.760 --> 1:36:11.799 to make five dollars as long as they can control 1:36:11.920 --> 1:36:12.800 x amount of the chart. 1:36:13.479 --> 1:36:13.880 We aren't. 1:36:13.920 --> 1:36:15.720 We aren't even in the same business that they're in. 1:36:16.040 --> 1:36:19.200 So when they got into hip hop, it changed the 1:36:19.320 --> 1:36:22.040 nature of hip hop, and it made it very corporated, 1:36:22.280 --> 1:36:25.800 you know, and kept some of the sort of the 1:36:25.840 --> 1:36:29.920 street creativity that came from discovering something on the street 1:36:30.120 --> 1:36:32.759 and starting with nothing and bringing to something to something 1:36:32.800 --> 1:36:37.400 where the second you signed, you know, the mayboch pulls up, 1:36:37.680 --> 1:36:38.719 get a bag of money. 1:36:39.120 --> 1:36:43.519 You know. So okay, being as though you're you're it 1:36:43.560 --> 1:36:47.040 was front loaded instead of so being as though you're 1:36:47.360 --> 1:36:53.760 one of the last execus that built this reputation off 1:36:53.800 --> 1:36:57.559 of the idea of groups. Now, in hindsight, I hear 1:36:58.040 --> 1:37:01.400 people say, especially in documentaries, that it's way more easier 1:37:01.439 --> 1:37:05.960 to control solo artists than it is a group, which 1:37:06.120 --> 1:37:11.040 leads to uh, I guess my my question about statso 1:37:11.120 --> 1:37:17.040 Sonic as an independent label owner, are you at any 1:37:17.080 --> 1:37:22.719 point thinking about the financial hindrance and the burden of 1:37:23.920 --> 1:37:27.519 dealing with six to seven people. I mean, you're dealing 1:37:27.600 --> 1:37:29.280 with a group, and I'm thinking. 1:37:29.120 --> 1:37:33.600 Live I think stet was right six oh with the drummer. 1:37:33.640 --> 1:37:36.599 Yeah, Robby, Well yeah to me, that's their anger. Sorry, 1:37:36.760 --> 1:37:42.040 so well, of course whoever he is. No, But it's 1:37:42.120 --> 1:37:47.479 just like if I'm if I'm pretending i'm you, I'm 1:37:47.520 --> 1:37:51.519 thinking about oh, God, a band that's back line, that's 1:37:51.520 --> 1:37:56.879 a twelve passenger van. If that uh I was saying hotels, 1:37:56.920 --> 1:38:04.479 You're like, so oh, I mean what I know, there 1:38:04.479 --> 1:38:08.000 weren't limitations back then, but clearly that was the last 1:38:08.000 --> 1:38:10.960 of an era because in the next ten years, the 1:38:11.600 --> 1:38:14.840 really of the next six years, the idea of a 1:38:14.840 --> 1:38:18.880 band or group, uh will become an endangered species thing. 1:38:19.439 --> 1:38:22.120 So why. 1:38:23.439 --> 1:38:26.360 We weren't thinking about touring because we're the label. We're 1:38:26.400 --> 1:38:29.600 you know, we're only contracted to make money when the 1:38:29.640 --> 1:38:33.639 group sells music, so we don't profit from their touring. 1:38:34.360 --> 1:38:35.040 I never really thought. 1:38:35.240 --> 1:38:38.240 But you never thought like, okay, well, touring will build 1:38:38.320 --> 1:38:42.200 up their popularity and thus we can make more records. 1:38:42.240 --> 1:38:46.160 And you know that hasn't always been the case for us. 1:38:47.040 --> 1:38:52.160 In fact, every group we signed, we we had never 1:38:52.200 --> 1:38:54.960 seen live till after we signed them, and they never 1:38:55.000 --> 1:38:58.240 really got gigs, significant gigs. I mean, I saw for 1:38:58.400 --> 1:39:00.840 some d's that made mean is exception for that. But 1:39:00.880 --> 1:39:03.000 Stets of Sonic, we heard the record, we signed them 1:39:03.000 --> 1:39:05.160 off the record, you've never seen them live, Dyala Soul. 1:39:05.200 --> 1:39:08.000 We saw there was not at that time, you know, 1:39:08.040 --> 1:39:11.720 they were developing their concept and Prince Paul you know, 1:39:12.040 --> 1:39:14.439 was involved obviously was the DJ in that group too. 1:39:14.439 --> 1:39:16.880 But mister Magic brought us that group. So mister Magic 1:39:16.920 --> 1:39:19.360 brought me the demo. I liked the demo, you know, 1:39:19.640 --> 1:39:21.800 and we brought them and we recorded them and actually 1:39:21.800 --> 1:39:23.960 in my apartment, we had a twenty four track in 1:39:24.000 --> 1:39:27.320 the second bedroom. When we moved Dancing Musical Report out, 1:39:27.360 --> 1:39:29.240 we moved the studio into the second bedroom. We had 1:39:29.360 --> 1:39:33.200 twenty four track and we recorded them in the bedroom. 1:39:33.600 --> 1:39:35.519 We put Mike's in the living room and. 1:39:35.640 --> 1:39:36.400 In an apartment. 1:39:36.640 --> 1:39:44.840 Yeah, they weren't home. We recorded during the day. 1:39:44.920 --> 1:39:46.320 What song was that? Did you recorded? 1:39:46.800 --> 1:39:49.519 Apartment? Just say stet. We tried to re record, but 1:39:49.560 --> 1:39:51.559 we tried to re record it because they had done 1:39:51.600 --> 1:39:54.960 it tape in the studio in Brooklyn and all they 1:39:55.000 --> 1:39:57.639 had was a cassette and something happened, they didn't pay 1:39:57.640 --> 1:39:59.920 their bill or whatever, and there was no master tape, 1:40:00.360 --> 1:40:03.599 and we tried to replicate it, and we ended up 1:40:03.800 --> 1:40:06.680 just using the cassette master from the cassette because we 1:40:06.680 --> 1:40:09.559 couldn't make it better. That's so dope, like you know, 1:40:09.680 --> 1:40:11.639 like sugar Hill was flashed the. 1:40:11.560 --> 1:40:13.120 Beat, No you chasing the demo? 1:40:13.320 --> 1:40:16.680 It's like literally, But we did record other tracks up 1:40:16.720 --> 1:40:19.759 there as well, and I remember Freu kwand Falling Sleep 1:40:20.240 --> 1:40:23.439 and uh and also mixed machine Wise, who was like 1:40:23.800 --> 1:40:25.960 amazing human beat bucks at the time. 1:40:26.080 --> 1:40:31.799 Now, okay, the I feel like the idea of Statso 1:40:31.880 --> 1:40:37.160 Sonic and the legend of stats of Sonic was bigger 1:40:38.000 --> 1:40:42.040 than what they actually were because and you know, for 1:40:42.120 --> 1:40:44.760 history sake whatever, I've been respectful on this stuff like okay, yeah, 1:40:44.800 --> 1:40:47.759 we're the second hip hop band whatever. I never, truly, 1:40:48.160 --> 1:40:51.120 I never really considered Stetso Sonic a hip hop band 1:40:51.680 --> 1:40:56.480 because when I listened to their records in instrument, it sounded. 1:40:56.200 --> 1:40:57.639 Like Bobby wasn't in the studio. 1:40:58.280 --> 1:41:00.479 Well it sounds well no, Well, I mean he was 1:41:00.520 --> 1:41:03.400 for the three or four important songs he was drumming on. 1:41:04.040 --> 1:41:07.559 But I always thought that was a marketing angle more 1:41:07.600 --> 1:41:08.839 than even when that. 1:41:09.040 --> 1:41:11.840 I think that was Daddyo's idea. By the way, oh 1:41:11.920 --> 1:41:13.040 yeah yeah, and. 1:41:13.120 --> 1:41:15.800 The Beastie Boy issue of Spin magazine. 1:41:15.400 --> 1:41:20.599 They were very interesting. Daddyo was very involved in the uh, 1:41:20.880 --> 1:41:23.120 you know, the marketing ideas and the concepts. We used 1:41:23.160 --> 1:41:26.040 to actually fight about it sometimes because we didn't always agree, 1:41:26.400 --> 1:41:28.920 but a lot of the ideas that are in stets 1:41:28.920 --> 1:41:33.080 sonic h are those. But you know, records like talking 1:41:33.120 --> 1:41:35.439 All that Jazz to me is still a classic. The 1:41:35.439 --> 1:41:38.439 first record about sampling really you know. 1:41:40.000 --> 1:41:43.360 It was it was so I'm saying, like, when you're 1:41:44.479 --> 1:41:47.200 doing this and by the time did they make their 1:41:47.240 --> 1:41:49.080 debut at the New Music Seminar? 1:41:50.400 --> 1:41:52.280 Maybe I can't remember which we're. 1:41:52.200 --> 1:41:55.439 Kind of skipping that you started the New Music Seminar. 1:41:56.000 --> 1:41:58.200 I co started it with a bunch of other people. 1:41:58.800 --> 1:42:04.000 There was another there was an so the DJ culture 1:42:04.040 --> 1:42:07.040 was exploding. There was a there was a rock oriented 1:42:07.400 --> 1:42:12.320 thing called rock Pool that serviced rock DJs, rock music, 1:42:12.560 --> 1:42:17.240 you know, post punk, you know, new wave and stuff 1:42:17.280 --> 1:42:20.559 like that. DJs that played specifically rock music at the time. 1:42:20.880 --> 1:42:24.240 And because rock was so big with the labels, they 1:42:24.280 --> 1:42:28.280 got big support from the record companies. Uh and disco 1:42:28.400 --> 1:42:30.519 was always like the bastard child of the music industry. 1:42:30.520 --> 1:42:33.639 That's why she just got rejected for the eleventh time, 1:42:35.520 --> 1:42:38.559 broke the record for the eleventh you know, of being 1:42:40.000 --> 1:42:42.760 I'm trying, I'm trying rejected. But Nile will get in 1:42:42.840 --> 1:42:45.800 this year on a special award, but. 1:42:45.880 --> 1:42:46.880 We're going to get Sheik in. 1:42:47.240 --> 1:42:49.840 Well, you gotta get Nol Rogers specifically because he he'll 1:42:49.880 --> 1:42:51.920 tell you the story about rappers, the light and the sample, and. 1:42:52.720 --> 1:42:57.559 He's a friend of the show. So for the New 1:42:57.640 --> 1:42:59.480 Music Cement, when was the very first. 1:42:59.200 --> 1:43:03.519 One in SII Rehearsal studios. It was a one day 1:43:03.520 --> 1:43:04.560 event in nineteen. 1:43:04.320 --> 1:43:06.560 Eighty Do you who performed? 1:43:06.920 --> 1:43:10.200 No, No, There were no performances at night. The first 1:43:10.200 --> 1:43:12.120 one was just a one day thing, the same day 1:43:12.160 --> 1:43:16.200 as the Billboard Disco Forum and the disco form fell off, 1:43:16.240 --> 1:43:18.280 and we packed like one hundred and fifty two hundred 1:43:18.280 --> 1:43:21.360 people in the room, and we're talking about issues with 1:43:21.560 --> 1:43:25.040 radio and issues DJ issues. We talked about remixing and 1:43:25.400 --> 1:43:28.920 things that nobody really was talking about elsewhere. And we 1:43:28.960 --> 1:43:31.519 didn't see disco as one hundred and thirty beats per minute. 1:43:31.560 --> 1:43:35.679 We saw dance music or DJ culture is something different. 1:43:35.720 --> 1:43:38.880 So we took the perspective, the DJ perspective, because both 1:43:38.920 --> 1:43:41.880 of our publications pooled our resources and reached out to 1:43:41.920 --> 1:43:45.800 the DJ community. So it was the DJ community and 1:43:45.840 --> 1:43:49.000 finally getting access to the music industry through the New 1:43:49.040 --> 1:43:51.799 Music Seminar, and then that built and built in nineteen 1:43:51.840 --> 1:43:54.000 eighty one, it grew. We went to a club, and 1:43:54.040 --> 1:43:56.879 then in nineteen eighty two it went to the Sheridan, 1:43:56.960 --> 1:43:58.960 and then it went to the Hilton for two years, 1:43:58.960 --> 1:44:01.120 and then to the Marriotte. You know, and I know 1:44:01.200 --> 1:44:04.640 that there's going to be an episode of of the 1:44:04.640 --> 1:44:08.120 Breaks where this giant fight at the New Music Seminar, 1:44:09.280 --> 1:44:12.200 the music episode. Yeah, yeah, are you sure the New 1:44:12.280 --> 1:44:14.360 Music Seminar that was like in the in the pilot. 1:44:14.439 --> 1:44:15.800 Yeah, that was in Oh yeah, yeah, that was in 1:44:15.800 --> 1:44:16.240 the pilot. 1:44:16.280 --> 1:44:18.720 But now we have an episode where it actually takes 1:44:18.760 --> 1:44:19.519 place at night. 1:44:19.600 --> 1:44:22.360 No, I saw the Coming Attraction store and it looks 1:44:22.600 --> 1:44:25.000 just like it. They did a fantastic job, Thank you man. 1:44:25.040 --> 1:44:27.559 We take We shot that actually at the what's the 1:44:27.560 --> 1:44:32.120 hotel across the street from penn Station the Yeah. 1:44:32.000 --> 1:44:37.040 Shot and shot at the Hotel Pennsylvania. The rats over there, boy, yeah, 1:44:37.080 --> 1:44:41.320 they got tales to tell. That's why we shot it. 1:44:41.400 --> 1:44:46.720 That's crazy. So what was your I guess when I 1:44:46.880 --> 1:44:51.559 first started hearing about the New Music Seminar? Well Search 1:44:51.600 --> 1:44:57.000 has his tales of that's when Russell first saw him. 1:44:57.200 --> 1:45:01.559 The night I remember with the infamous Craig g Versus 1:45:01.560 --> 1:45:06.160 Supernatural battle, like, what are your what are your fond memories. 1:45:05.720 --> 1:45:09.800 Of well, because I was running it. You have to 1:45:09.880 --> 1:45:15.320 understand that I I was dealing with registration, I was 1:45:15.360 --> 1:45:17.440 dealing with planning. 1:45:17.160 --> 1:45:19.880 And everything myself like, and I was. 1:45:19.800 --> 1:45:22.800 Doing Tommy Boy at the same time and Dance Music 1:45:22.840 --> 1:45:25.640 Report at the same time, so imagine all of that. 1:45:25.720 --> 1:45:28.000 And when this thing was happening, I would move downtown 1:45:28.080 --> 1:45:31.880 to our office and uh on Lower Broadway and we 1:45:31.920 --> 1:45:35.400 would uh you know, and I would work there for 1:45:35.560 --> 1:45:37.479 like three months of the year, and I'd come to 1:45:37.760 --> 1:45:40.200 the Tommy Boy offices two days a week and being 1:45:40.360 --> 1:45:43.599 the Seminar offices like three days a week. And then 1:45:43.640 --> 1:45:45.600 when the two weeks before, I wouldn't even come to 1:45:45.640 --> 1:45:48.000 the Tommy Boy offices. So you know, it was that 1:45:48.160 --> 1:45:50.720 kind of thing, you know. So it was it was 1:45:51.120 --> 1:45:54.200 so my memories of it are you know, the few 1:45:54.240 --> 1:45:55.960 panels that I got to see because I had to 1:45:55.960 --> 1:45:57.840 go to all of them and run around and do 1:45:57.920 --> 1:46:00.840 everything and sort of manage the stuff that I was 1:46:00.840 --> 1:46:03.360 trying to manage, Like you know, who was the keynote speaker, 1:46:03.680 --> 1:46:06.559 was Frank Zappa or whoever was going to speak. I mean, 1:46:07.680 --> 1:46:10.120 you know, the press and what was happening, people trying 1:46:10.120 --> 1:46:12.400 to sneak in which was happening. There was so much 1:46:12.439 --> 1:46:14.880 stuff going on. If there was a fight, which that 1:46:15.000 --> 1:46:18.000 happened at one time, that became legendary. 1:46:18.400 --> 1:46:21.559 Versus Lynch mob one. Yeah, that's I think. 1:46:22.680 --> 1:46:25.920 And I think also Miami was involved because I think 1:46:27.360 --> 1:46:29.840 what's his name was, Luke was involved with that as well. 1:46:30.000 --> 1:46:32.839 They were throwing tables. I was told in the panels clubs, 1:46:33.400 --> 1:46:35.000 and then I had to stay in the green room 1:46:35.040 --> 1:46:37.920 the panelists ready room to talk to to set up 1:46:37.920 --> 1:46:40.639 all the people, because I helped put all the panels together. 1:46:40.720 --> 1:46:43.360 So I had to tell explain to the moderator what 1:46:43.360 --> 1:46:46.840 we're trying to achieve from each each panel discussion, so 1:46:46.880 --> 1:46:49.360 that the level of discourse would be high enough and 1:46:49.400 --> 1:46:52.400 we would achieve what we're trying to achieve from each one. 1:46:52.800 --> 1:46:54.320 It wasn't just go up there and do whatever you 1:46:54.360 --> 1:46:56.920 want to do. It was like I was producing all 1:46:56.960 --> 1:46:58.920 of the events that were happening, and then at night 1:46:59.040 --> 1:47:01.760 then other people people were doing the showcases and the 1:47:02.800 --> 1:47:04.599 you know, all of the shows that would happen. 1:47:04.920 --> 1:47:08.280 Who were some of the most notable debuts that happened 1:47:08.280 --> 1:47:13.080 at the New Music Seminar that now our household names or. 1:47:13.040 --> 1:47:16.040 At least Nirvana. I wouldn't call it a debut, but 1:47:16.080 --> 1:47:19.720 they played a tiny little club and they played this 1:47:19.960 --> 1:47:22.240 and it was one of his last gigs before he died. 1:47:22.280 --> 1:47:26.920 Also was at the New Music Seminar, and there was 1:47:26.960 --> 1:47:29.120 a bunch of rock groups that came and did their debuts. 1:47:29.560 --> 1:47:31.800 You know, so much stuff happened at the seminar, and 1:47:31.800 --> 1:47:33.920 there were so many people that would come. I'm still 1:47:33.960 --> 1:47:36.320 hearing stories I didn't know about about people who got 1:47:36.320 --> 1:47:40.320 their start. Yeah, people met, you know, I know, a 1:47:40.360 --> 1:47:43.400 big producer at one point was the president of Atlantic, 1:47:43.520 --> 1:47:45.840 Danny Goldberg met his wife on the panel he was 1:47:45.840 --> 1:47:49.000 on at the New Music Seminar. Other people like Craig 1:47:49.080 --> 1:47:53.160 Kalman is the you know now the CEO of Atlantic 1:47:53.520 --> 1:47:57.000 used to come to the seminar before he really got started. 1:47:57.040 --> 1:48:00.240 And when you know, people used to head enter at 1:48:00.240 --> 1:48:02.000 the seminar. I didn't know if somebody told me RuPaul 1:48:02.120 --> 1:48:03.639 was an Internet I didn't know Rupol was an intern 1:48:03.680 --> 1:48:05.479 at the seminar, but I know I saw him at 1:48:05.520 --> 1:48:08.120 the seminar. Maybe it was that year or some other year. 1:48:08.120 --> 1:48:10.760 I mean, it's all a blurb because you know, there 1:48:10.760 --> 1:48:14.439 were there were like, you know, twenty five panels over 1:48:14.520 --> 1:48:17.400 three days and three hundred or four hundred speakers and 1:48:17.680 --> 1:48:21.240 five hundred bands performing. It was just so much happening. 1:48:21.439 --> 1:48:23.519 We had a team of like twenty people just to 1:48:23.560 --> 1:48:27.240 produce that event. Year round, we had like eight people 1:48:27.360 --> 1:48:28.719 year round working in an event. 1:48:29.280 --> 1:48:32.960 So what point are you now expanding, Tommy boy? When 1:48:33.000 --> 1:48:35.040 does Monica lunch coming too? The situation? When do you 1:48:35.040 --> 1:48:36.040 get a full staff? 1:48:36.160 --> 1:48:39.240 Monica was there almost from the beginning, So I started 1:48:39.280 --> 1:48:45.800 with Jazzy Sensation, and I think sometime I met Monica, 1:48:45.880 --> 1:48:52.160 probably around eighty one or eighty two, I can't remember 1:48:52.200 --> 1:48:55.880 which year. Okay, she started right around then, but almost 1:48:55.880 --> 1:48:58.000 from the beginning, it was just me and her first 1:48:58.240 --> 1:48:59.920 that were the only two people that worked there. And 1:49:00.080 --> 1:49:02.960 then we had we got another person as an assistant, 1:49:03.240 --> 1:49:05.840 and we started to grow it a little bit after that. 1:49:07.200 --> 1:49:10.160 What were your I mean, did you guys share the 1:49:10.160 --> 1:49:12.600 same aesthetic, like what the label should be or is 1:49:12.600 --> 1:49:15.320 it just like you know, is it her job just 1:49:15.360 --> 1:49:16.320 to hear with the. 1:49:16.439 --> 1:49:19.120 And by the way, we were also running Dance Music 1:49:19.160 --> 1:49:21.040 Report at the same time, so we were still putting 1:49:21.040 --> 1:49:23.120 the stickers on and writing the articles. And that while 1:49:23.120 --> 1:49:25.240 we were doing Tommy Boy too. So when she started, 1:49:25.439 --> 1:49:26.720 she was doing both things with me. 1:49:27.280 --> 1:49:27.960 Okay, she was. 1:49:27.880 --> 1:49:29.880 Doing everything I needed to be done, and that's I 1:49:29.920 --> 1:49:32.960 needed to do everything, So she did it all. 1:49:32.800 --> 1:49:36.920 What were your feelings towards the competition at least def Jam? 1:49:36.960 --> 1:49:38.240 Were you guys looking at them like. 1:49:38.520 --> 1:49:42.559 Well, Jeff, we were before deaf Jam started, right. 1:49:42.439 --> 1:49:45.080 But I'm saying once def Jam comes and it's like, okay, 1:49:45.120 --> 1:49:46.760 now the car is getting crowded. 1:49:46.439 --> 1:49:50.120 Well, I think run DMC was. It was it was 1:49:50.120 --> 1:49:52.400 more rush than it was deaf Jam. So run DMC 1:49:52.600 --> 1:49:55.400 was the first one and that was profile really that 1:49:56.000 --> 1:50:00.120 stepped into our territory in a significant way. And and 1:50:00.520 --> 1:50:02.680 you know, I had mad respect for what they're doing. 1:50:02.720 --> 1:50:06.200 And I'm very close friends with Corey Robin Steele who 1:50:06.320 --> 1:50:11.000 had that label. And so I don't know, it's you know, 1:50:11.920 --> 1:50:15.960 I don't know that. I never really was competitive. Really, 1:50:16.000 --> 1:50:17.960 I'm not a I'm not a good competitor. I'm much 1:50:17.960 --> 1:50:20.080 more a better innovator, you know. So I'm just I 1:50:20.080 --> 1:50:21.960 would look at what they would do, just so I 1:50:21.960 --> 1:50:25.479 wouldn't do that. You know, whatever they're doing, I want 1:50:25.479 --> 1:50:26.880 to do the opposite. Of that. That's sort of the 1:50:26.880 --> 1:50:29.799 contrarian thing I was talking about before. It's like, okay, 1:50:29.840 --> 1:50:32.040 so Russell's doing this and this, what can I do? 1:50:32.120 --> 1:50:33.559 He's not doing it? Brings us to day. 1:50:35.360 --> 1:50:37.479 Well, he used to call my music frantic because his 1:50:37.600 --> 1:50:40.800 music was more R and B influence. You know, he 1:50:40.920 --> 1:50:43.400 was the guy who would be hanging out at the 1:50:43.720 --> 1:50:45.559 you know what I would go to. If I would 1:50:45.600 --> 1:50:47.560 go to the T Connection and Bronx River Center, he 1:50:47.560 --> 1:50:50.559 would not be there. He would he would be drinking 1:50:50.560 --> 1:50:53.840 splits of Moe at at you know, at the Fever. 1:50:54.200 --> 1:50:55.280 You know, he was a fever guy. 1:50:55.479 --> 1:50:59.280 You know, wait, it just hit me. You had interactions 1:50:59.320 --> 1:51:04.759 with Jake King. Would you consider Club Nouveau a Tommy 1:51:04.760 --> 1:51:06.800 Boy artist or was that just adition? 1:51:07.360 --> 1:51:09.640 We put out all the twelve inches, so yeah, we 1:51:09.720 --> 1:51:11.400 broke all those records with our team. 1:51:11.880 --> 1:51:14.280 What about was tom like Social Club also in that? 1:51:14.400 --> 1:51:15.280 Are they okay? 1:51:16.680 --> 1:51:23.800 That was on my Cola Records? Social Club Don McMillan, Yeah. 1:51:23.240 --> 1:51:28.720 Liquor that guy the guy who like the last that's 1:51:28.720 --> 1:51:38.160 the unmalcol record, not Malacola. Yeah, that was digital, that's 1:51:38.160 --> 1:51:38.799 the West Coast. 1:51:38.960 --> 1:51:42.000 Underwater Rhymes was on my Cola. You know, all all 1:51:42.040 --> 1:51:45.439 of those records. He had also had what's his name 1:51:45.960 --> 1:51:49.080 from Miami, he had Luke Skywalker was there. You know, 1:51:49.520 --> 1:51:52.400 all of the Bay Area groups were on the because 1:51:52.439 --> 1:51:55.000 he owned the pressing plant on Santa Monica Boulevard, so 1:51:55.040 --> 1:51:57.320 everybody went to him to get records pressed. So he 1:51:57.400 --> 1:52:01.760 became the default label. He was a tugboat captain from Alaska. 1:52:01.880 --> 1:52:04.960 Don McMillan. He didn't know to say no, He just said, 1:52:05.000 --> 1:52:07.760 all right, I'll press it. So you know, he ran 1:52:07.800 --> 1:52:09.800 the front door and the back door in the pressing plane. 1:52:09.880 --> 1:52:10.520 Ah. 1:52:11.080 --> 1:52:13.960 So you know he he could have been the biggest 1:52:14.000 --> 1:52:16.639 record company in the world if he had paid people 1:52:16.640 --> 1:52:20.080 and done things right. But you know, everybody complained that 1:52:20.160 --> 1:52:22.599 he wasn't. He wasn't straight with people. 1:52:22.640 --> 1:52:24.519 So he just got people to the next level, which 1:52:24.640 --> 1:52:25.519 was well. 1:52:25.360 --> 1:52:27.480 He got the record out and got them established. 1:52:27.520 --> 1:52:30.960 You know, I see so because I guess, well, you know, 1:52:31.080 --> 1:52:35.000 me wanted a Grammy. I believe were at least who 1:52:35.080 --> 1:52:39.200 did deal with it. I'm still lean on Manuva. So, uh, 1:52:41.160 --> 1:52:45.080 what was it about them at you know, did you 1:52:45.080 --> 1:52:48.080 feel like we should expand to the West coast and no, 1:52:49.040 --> 1:52:50.559 I think or did they come to you. 1:52:51.479 --> 1:52:53.600 Well, we had a relationship with Warner So that was 1:52:53.640 --> 1:52:56.880 a record label that was signed to Warner that I 1:52:57.000 --> 1:52:59.320 liked because I was a big fan of Time at 1:52:59.400 --> 1:53:01.320 Social Club, which I think was one of another one 1:53:01.360 --> 1:53:03.680 of the biggest twelve inches of all time. It was 1:53:03.680 --> 1:53:05.920 one of those record of the year records that never 1:53:05.960 --> 1:53:09.160 got the credit that it due. And I went and 1:53:09.360 --> 1:53:12.600 found them, and you know, I said, let me do 1:53:12.640 --> 1:53:14.280 this because I know what to do. You guys aren't 1:53:14.320 --> 1:53:15.920 going to know what to do on Warner Brothers really 1:53:16.000 --> 1:53:19.120 wasn't like a black music label. They didn't really break 1:53:19.200 --> 1:53:22.000 very many black artists at all, and they definitely didn't 1:53:22.000 --> 1:53:22.240 know what it. 1:53:22.320 --> 1:53:25.280 Is that odd to say that for at that point 1:53:25.360 --> 1:53:28.160 nineteen eighty five, eighty six, that they still don't know 1:53:28.200 --> 1:53:31.479 how to like. So that Harvard report stuff was just 1:53:31.880 --> 1:53:36.320 for not at least the Harvard report from the seventies, like. 1:53:36.920 --> 1:53:37.439 I don't know that. 1:53:38.080 --> 1:53:40.679 Well, okay, well there was there was a Harvard report 1:53:40.880 --> 1:53:46.080 in nineteen seventy two that specifically told the majors that 1:53:46.320 --> 1:53:50.040 you should start investing in black label. So as a result, 1:53:51.000 --> 1:53:58.680 Philly International gets inquired acquired from CBS Labels start you know, 1:53:58.800 --> 1:54:00.000 Echo to Atlanta. 1:54:00.560 --> 1:54:01.639 I never saw that report. 1:54:01.840 --> 1:54:05.320 It's yeah, it's too bads Harbor report. 1:54:05.439 --> 1:54:07.040 So but the thing is, I don't think Warner Brothers 1:54:07.080 --> 1:54:09.519 ever recovered from that though, Like they never really, I 1:54:09.560 --> 1:54:12.120 mean even when you talked to DJs and they would 1:54:12.160 --> 1:54:14.360 just tall you straight up. If we saw Warner Brothers logo, 1:54:14.439 --> 1:54:16.439 we knew it was whack. Like when it came to 1:54:16.479 --> 1:54:17.800 like hip hop or whatever, like. 1:54:17.760 --> 1:54:24.120 That Graham Central Station that was imprint and they had 1:54:24.240 --> 1:54:26.479 some didn't that at some period that had some George 1:54:26.520 --> 1:54:27.840 Clinton stuff for a minute, didn't they? 1:54:28.760 --> 1:54:34.320 Uh for the Funkadelic, the Funkadelic stuff, Parlotte Parliament, some 1:54:34.400 --> 1:54:37.520 of that stuff. One Nation Undergroove and and Uncle Jim. 1:54:37.720 --> 1:54:42.040 But yeah, I would have thought that that. So you 1:54:42.280 --> 1:54:44.480 actually went to mo Austin just said, yo. 1:54:44.560 --> 1:54:46.360 Let me do this. You know I can do it. 1:54:46.440 --> 1:54:48.440 I can handle the guy, and I can make it, 1:54:48.640 --> 1:54:50.320 you know, make it work and break it for you. 1:54:50.840 --> 1:54:52.560 So I got the twelve inches on that. 1:54:52.640 --> 1:54:57.040 Which leads me too while you treat me so bad. 1:54:57.280 --> 1:54:59.760 All right, So my favorite hip hop group of all 1:54:59.800 --> 1:55:01.400 time day Los Soul. 1:55:02.320 --> 1:55:04.200 Uh. 1:55:04.720 --> 1:55:09.440 First of all, just the marketings unprecedented. I mean shit. 1:55:09.560 --> 1:55:12.480 The first time I almost got suspended from school was 1:55:13.560 --> 1:55:18.360 hanging those damn day Loss stickers all over all over 1:55:18.920 --> 1:55:21.560 where I shouldn't have h in school. 1:55:21.880 --> 1:55:23.600 That was our second sticker, by the way, the first 1:55:23.600 --> 1:55:24.720 one was st e. 1:55:24.640 --> 1:55:27.600 T Stet stickers were first. 1:55:27.640 --> 1:55:29.680 That was the first sticker, and it was you know, 1:55:29.880 --> 1:55:31.920 it was orange and they cost three cents each. And 1:55:31.960 --> 1:55:33.960 that was sweet market the beginning. It was a crazy 1:55:34.040 --> 1:55:34.680 street market. 1:55:34.880 --> 1:55:38.800 Yeah, yeah, you were the first. I guess, yeah, your label, 1:55:38.800 --> 1:55:41.879 because that's no other label I recall really. 1:55:41.800 --> 1:55:44.760 But everyone so I innovated, and everybody took the stuff 1:55:44.760 --> 1:55:48.320 and out competed me, you know. You know, they went 1:55:48.320 --> 1:55:52.040 from stickers to giant stickers, to wrap cars, to wrap vans, 1:55:52.080 --> 1:55:53.160 to wrap whatever. 1:55:53.400 --> 1:55:57.240 They're basically giving you credit for come creating the promo, right. 1:55:57.160 --> 1:55:59.560 Like, you know, we just little things, you know that 1:56:00.280 --> 1:56:02.680 to get to get exposure to me. A three and 1:56:02.760 --> 1:56:05.400 six sticker that's fluorescent, that just has a few letters 1:56:05.400 --> 1:56:07.840 on it, if you put it on a payphone or 1:56:07.880 --> 1:56:10.920 on a latrine at the right club, you know it's 1:56:10.920 --> 1:56:12.840 going to be seen by a lot of people. We 1:56:12.880 --> 1:56:15.000 did one for opp Those were the three big ones 1:56:15.000 --> 1:56:18.600 that I still want that opp sticker. I remember where 1:56:18.600 --> 1:56:21.440 they went at Magic City during the Jack the Rapper conference. 1:56:22.680 --> 1:56:25.480 That made everybody, every program director was in the audience, 1:56:25.480 --> 1:56:27.640 and when they saw that on that the booty slap 1:56:27.720 --> 1:56:30.400 with the OPP on it, they went back and every 1:56:30.400 --> 1:56:34.000 time they heard opp there was that connection that was 1:56:34.000 --> 1:56:34.720 the originative. 1:56:44.320 --> 1:56:49.040 So when you when you get Daylight, is it you 1:56:49.160 --> 1:56:54.280 that's trying to sell up the angle of hippie daisy? Yeah, 1:56:54.000 --> 1:56:56.200 the hippie image. It was. 1:56:56.520 --> 1:56:59.760 It was an obvious thing that they you know, I 1:56:59.760 --> 1:57:02.160 did to find what the front arc cover was with 1:57:02.280 --> 1:57:05.720 Monica and somebody in the press said that, I mean, 1:57:05.760 --> 1:57:09.160 there was a review that said that, of course the 1:57:09.160 --> 1:57:12.560 alliteration saying the hippies of hip hop makes so much sense, 1:57:12.640 --> 1:57:16.240 you know. But then they got reactionary about all that stuff, 1:57:16.280 --> 1:57:18.840 which is really what really pissed me off a little 1:57:18.880 --> 1:57:21.960 bit more than the react than people saying that who 1:57:22.000 --> 1:57:24.520 cares what people say? Do you think the whole idea 1:57:24.560 --> 1:57:26.959 with me, myself and I is that you're not influenced 1:57:26.960 --> 1:57:29.680 by what other people say, and now you're influenced with 1:57:29.720 --> 1:57:31.760 other what other people say, and you come back with 1:57:32.760 --> 1:57:33.720 Dala soula is dead. 1:57:33.880 --> 1:57:38.200 Well, it's my favorite don't jump the gun just yet. 1:57:38.280 --> 1:57:43.560 I mean, let's talk about the happy period. So uh, 1:57:44.040 --> 1:57:45.880 I mean, what do you what do you? What are 1:57:45.880 --> 1:57:46.280 your thoughts? 1:57:46.320 --> 1:57:48.480 And it came up with the daisy age? Do you 1:57:48.480 --> 1:57:49.960 think I came up with that? You think that was 1:57:49.960 --> 1:57:54.560 a marketing idea? Of course, the sire of the phones, 1:57:54.640 --> 1:57:57.280 all of that stuff, everything was them all we do. 1:57:57.440 --> 1:58:00.960 But it's set a precedent because what because this is 1:58:01.000 --> 1:58:04.480 now the first time. I mean when Nation of Millions 1:58:04.520 --> 1:58:06.839 came up, that's the first time I heard white critics 1:58:07.520 --> 1:58:10.640 salivating over hip hop. But when three f On Rising 1:58:10.720 --> 1:58:16.640 came out, suddenly kids in my geometry class are having 1:58:17.840 --> 1:58:23.680 hip hop discussions minus me, Like suddenly, it's I see 1:58:23.720 --> 1:58:27.600 the I've seen the first hand effects of how that 1:58:27.760 --> 1:58:34.840 album worked brilliantly. So I'm just saying that, like, at 1:58:34.840 --> 1:58:38.160 what point did you feel as though, like instantly? Was 1:58:38.200 --> 1:58:41.560 it when you first signed them for Pluck Tuning or was. 1:58:41.520 --> 1:58:45.480 It I mean when we signed them at the beginning, 1:58:45.520 --> 1:58:48.360 we didn't know. I remember hearing the record through the wall. 1:58:48.720 --> 1:58:50.880 They were playing it for Monica and I heard it 1:58:50.880 --> 1:58:52.320 through the wall and I came in to see what 1:58:52.360 --> 1:58:55.160 it was. Because usually when a record sounds great through 1:58:55.200 --> 1:58:57.080 the wall, it has a good shot of being a hit. 1:58:57.880 --> 1:59:00.240 If it doesn't sound like anything through the WALLBB he 1:59:00.280 --> 1:59:02.160 doesn't have. I mean, you know, you need to be 1:59:02.160 --> 1:59:05.080 able to hear a hit two cars away, you know, 1:59:05.200 --> 1:59:07.520 if you're in a driving kind of a situation, And 1:59:07.800 --> 1:59:11.040 that was one of you know, it's something that is 1:59:11.120 --> 1:59:14.480 so different from everything that's the status quo. You know, 1:59:15.520 --> 1:59:19.720 something that penetrates the noise floor is important for indie 1:59:19.760 --> 1:59:22.440 labels to have something that nobody else is saying that 1:59:22.560 --> 1:59:26.080 can go beyond and that I heard it, A nice 1:59:26.320 --> 1:59:28.480 heard it, And when Monica and I talked about it, 1:59:28.480 --> 1:59:30.560 and I said, this is either going to be really 1:59:30.600 --> 1:59:32.560 big or it's going to be nothing at all. There 1:59:32.600 --> 1:59:34.360 is no in between with the record like this. This 1:59:34.440 --> 1:59:37.760 could not connect at all because it's so bizarre and different. 1:59:38.200 --> 1:59:41.240 Most stuff that's bizarre and different doesn't connect or it 1:59:41.280 --> 1:59:43.800 could connect. So it was our job to try to say, 1:59:43.840 --> 1:59:46.720 all right, how do we tie it together and connect 1:59:46.760 --> 1:59:48.840 the dots to make people get it. 1:59:49.640 --> 1:59:53.320 You know, do you remember the Bill Coleman right up 1:59:53.320 --> 2:00:00.600 in Billboard about that record? Yeah, it's again because the 2:00:00.680 --> 2:00:04.440 late eighties and just the overall disdain of hip hop 2:00:04.480 --> 2:00:08.360 with music critics really not treating it as for art. 2:00:08.400 --> 2:00:12.120 For him, I'll say that Nelson George and Bill Coleman 2:00:12.200 --> 2:00:19.040 at at Billboard wrote to like major like these three 2:00:19.080 --> 2:00:26.280 paragraph love letters about the record, which I felt was 2:00:26.520 --> 2:00:28.760 a game changer, at least for the At the time, 2:00:28.800 --> 2:00:30.560 I was working at a record store. So even like 2:00:30.720 --> 2:00:33.960 rock critics were like which one, I was working at 2:00:34.040 --> 2:00:38.480 Sam Goodies and in Philly, Uh, shout out to Sam 2:00:38.480 --> 2:00:45.880 Goodies on nut. They fired me afterward, but you know, 2:00:46.080 --> 2:00:50.160 and then they're putting up the display. Suddenly it's like, okay, 2:00:50.840 --> 2:00:53.320 we're hearing buzzz about this. They read Bill Coleman's article 2:00:53.320 --> 2:00:56.840 and suddenly like the main walls having a dayl out 2:00:56.880 --> 2:00:58.720 display all of a sudden, like I see the effects 2:00:58.720 --> 2:01:05.480 of it to you. I mean, so this wasn't a 2:01:05.520 --> 2:01:07.640 thing like a Mastermind meeting. I don't know, maybe in 2:01:07.640 --> 2:01:10.040 my head I'm just having a Uh. 2:01:10.720 --> 2:01:13.240 There were a lot of meetings at Tommy Boy where 2:01:13.240 --> 2:01:18.480 we talked about how can we penetrate you know, culture 2:01:18.520 --> 2:01:21.600 with this, in the media with this, and Monica had 2:01:21.640 --> 2:01:25.080 a great relationship with Bill Coleman and you know, and 2:01:25.160 --> 2:01:28.520 most of the media it wasn't just that. Also it 2:01:28.560 --> 2:01:33.520 was the Village Voice, because the Village Voice reviewer was 2:01:33.680 --> 2:01:39.160 the you know, grand dame, the main guy who everybody 2:01:39.200 --> 2:01:42.280 else followed, and when he wrote it up, everybody he 2:01:42.360 --> 2:01:45.240 was the guy that wrote up Also Africa Bambada, and 2:01:45.280 --> 2:01:48.360 everybody wrote out to what's the guy's name. 2:01:49.640 --> 2:01:52.760 Oh, Robert Chris Gal. 2:01:52.880 --> 2:01:56.520 Yeah, Chris Chris was you know, he still is, you know, 2:01:57.160 --> 2:02:00.520 but in the era of rock journalism, he was one 2:02:00.560 --> 2:02:03.520 of three guys, maybe the number one guy. He was 2:02:03.560 --> 2:02:06.919 so important. Whatever he said everyone had to take seriously. 2:02:07.000 --> 2:02:09.560 So he wrote wrote it up positively, and he had 2:02:09.560 --> 2:02:12.200 written up and bought it positively, so he was open 2:02:12.240 --> 2:02:15.360 to what we're doing because he knew we had interesting 2:02:15.400 --> 2:02:17.400 stuff and he was interested in that, in that kind 2:02:17.440 --> 2:02:19.680 of thing. So it was the combination of all of that. 2:02:19.760 --> 2:02:22.560 I don't really think that many people read Billboard, you know, 2:02:22.680 --> 2:02:25.880 outside of culture, but it was mainstream. New York Times 2:02:26.120 --> 2:02:29.120 gave it an amazing review. It got crazy reviews from 2:02:29.120 --> 2:02:33.040 everybody is you know, So press was one of the things. 2:02:33.080 --> 2:02:35.800 But before that, we had already put out Potholes in 2:02:35.800 --> 2:02:39.360 My Lawn as a video, which, by the way, the 2:02:39.400 --> 2:02:40.600 record wasn't successful. 2:02:41.120 --> 2:02:43.680 The Potholes was, but that video was crazy. 2:02:43.760 --> 2:02:48.160 It was crazy, and that was my first exposure to Dayla. 2:02:47.360 --> 2:02:50.120 With the motorized skateboards and all that stuff. It was 2:02:50.160 --> 2:02:53.040 a new concept at the time. Yeah, and we shot 2:02:53.080 --> 2:02:55.560 that with the Super eight or something like that eight 2:02:55.560 --> 2:02:58.720 millimeter video camera because you know, we didn't have We 2:02:58.720 --> 2:03:00.800 weren't making videos yet. It was till early days and 2:03:01.720 --> 2:03:04.640 no one was really getting play yet on videos. Also, 2:03:04.680 --> 2:03:10.480 I think MTV might have embraced Dyala Soul early and 2:03:10.480 --> 2:03:13.000 they weren't embracing that much black music at the time. 2:03:12.800 --> 2:03:15.440 But d TV Wraps was out, so by the time 2:03:15.680 --> 2:03:16.440 it was kicking in. 2:03:16.640 --> 2:03:20.480 The one discussions to do that. To appeal Dayla to 2:03:20.600 --> 2:03:23.840 white audience never never can And I say that only 2:03:23.840 --> 2:03:25.280 coming from a place for me. 2:03:25.840 --> 2:03:26.720 The early. 2:03:28.000 --> 2:03:30.400 Hip hop groups that appeal to white audiences were Dayla, Tribe, 2:03:30.440 --> 2:03:32.760 clal Quests, and a few years later was the Roots, 2:03:32.920 --> 2:03:35.320 Like those were the We never actually talked about that. 2:03:35.520 --> 2:03:38.040 I mean, I just I just wonder about because because 2:03:38.040 --> 2:03:40.720 that was a lot of a lot when I first 2:03:40.760 --> 2:03:42.280 started getting into tip hop, the white kids were talking 2:03:42.280 --> 2:03:44.080 about Dayla, soho on try calal Quest. I feel like 2:03:44.080 --> 2:03:47.480 those somebody somebody somewhere said something or I don't know 2:03:47.480 --> 2:03:48.480 how that, How did that happen? 2:03:48.800 --> 2:03:52.880 That's why I so penetrating into white media is what 2:03:52.920 --> 2:03:55.000 did that? So we were trying to get on MTV 2:03:55.040 --> 2:03:57.560 because we wanted as much exposure as possible, but we 2:03:57.600 --> 2:04:00.400 didn't label it white exposure. That's what you're saying, we 2:04:00.440 --> 2:04:02.520 don't want we don't. Like I said when I went 2:04:02.520 --> 2:04:04.800 into the Tea connection, that's just not the way we 2:04:05.160 --> 2:04:08.160 think about it. How much exposure can we get wherever 2:04:08.200 --> 2:04:10.360 it is, if it's white or black. I don't really 2:04:10.360 --> 2:04:12.280 give a shit if it's Latin or whatever. 2:04:12.280 --> 2:04:13.760 And I'm not trying to label it. What I'm saying 2:04:13.840 --> 2:04:15.959 is how did it happen? Because that was the college 2:04:16.120 --> 2:04:17.800 and that's that's what I'm interested in. I don't care 2:04:17.840 --> 2:04:20.000 what you call it. I just I just think that 2:04:20.400 --> 2:04:21.680 to me that that that was a. 2:04:22.440 --> 2:04:24.520 So we did a lot of things that we did. 2:04:24.600 --> 2:04:26.839 We had a we had a show at the Ukrainian 2:04:26.920 --> 2:04:29.880 National Home that was the first promo show to introduce them, 2:04:30.120 --> 2:04:32.520 and we invited the press to that show and they 2:04:32.560 --> 2:04:34.880 did a thing live there where they did the Bob 2:04:34.920 --> 2:04:37.240 Dylan thing where they held up the cards, the cards 2:04:37.280 --> 2:04:39.760 and dropping the cards. So that made a connection to 2:04:39.840 --> 2:04:42.680 people that this wasn't the an ordinary rap group that 2:04:43.120 --> 2:04:47.360 they're thinking about things that maybe are you know, at 2:04:47.360 --> 2:04:50.400 a different level than other rappers are thinking about things. 2:04:50.440 --> 2:04:54.680 And you know, but we didn't penetrate radio. We had 2:04:54.680 --> 2:04:56.680 no luck at radio and till Me myself and I 2:04:57.080 --> 2:05:00.000 so and it was it was that song that really 2:05:00.320 --> 2:05:02.800 made them, that took them over the hump. We were 2:05:02.840 --> 2:05:05.760 getting pressed, and we were getting some interest and people 2:05:05.760 --> 2:05:07.680 were finding out about it, but we didn't have a 2:05:07.720 --> 2:05:10.280 record that was really connecting until Me, myself and I 2:05:10.360 --> 2:05:10.800 came out. 2:05:10.960 --> 2:05:12.680 Did you know, was it when you heard it or 2:05:12.800 --> 2:05:15.720 was it like, Okay, of these twenty four songs you 2:05:15.760 --> 2:05:19.240 gave me, this song number eighteen is the one I 2:05:19.240 --> 2:05:20.200 could probably work well. 2:05:20.280 --> 2:05:22.120 So we have to talk about Prince Paul. And this 2:05:22.200 --> 2:05:25.160 is because Prince Paul produced the record, and Prince Paul 2:05:25.720 --> 2:05:28.800 was responsible for many of the samples on the album, 2:05:28.840 --> 2:05:32.080 and Prince Paul's style is obscure samples and it was 2:05:32.320 --> 2:05:35.200 I used to have fights about that as much with 2:05:35.280 --> 2:05:37.240 Prince Paul as it is with the rest of the group, 2:05:37.320 --> 2:05:41.560 because the cost of a sample is almost the same 2:05:41.680 --> 2:05:47.840 whether you sample something that's unknown or something that people 2:05:48.000 --> 2:05:51.040 would know. And what we're always looking for, especially because 2:05:51.080 --> 2:05:53.240 I know I have to bring the records to radio myself. 2:05:53.600 --> 2:05:55.480 When I bring the records to radio, if there's this 2:05:55.640 --> 2:05:58.680 familiar bridge, something that can take people from the unfamiliar 2:05:58.720 --> 2:06:01.360 to the familiar, we can speed up the number of 2:06:01.400 --> 2:06:04.600 listens it takes to make an unfamiliar record familiar. This 2:06:04.760 --> 2:06:09.240 is like behavioral science, I suppose you know. But so 2:06:09.480 --> 2:06:13.360 if you sample knee Deep and people have already played 2:06:13.400 --> 2:06:16.520 Knee Deep, you know, one spin and people will go, 2:06:17.120 --> 2:06:19.360 I know that sounds familiar. I get it. That's the 2:06:19.440 --> 2:06:22.839 spoonful of sugar to help the medicine of intellectual lyrics 2:06:22.840 --> 2:06:27.000 go down. So if we're trying to do something that's set, 2:06:27.080 --> 2:06:31.120 that's really forward sampling and really forward lyrically, at the 2:06:31.120 --> 2:06:34.960 same time, we could be just it's the tree falling 2:06:35.000 --> 2:06:36.320 in the woods and no one hears it. You know, 2:06:36.360 --> 2:06:38.600 we need people, we need to get exposure. So we 2:06:38.680 --> 2:06:42.080 needed something to get people over with that. And there 2:06:42.200 --> 2:06:44.400 was a little bit of debate because the group doesn't 2:06:44.400 --> 2:06:47.080 really like me. It's myself and it's not their favorite song. 2:06:47.480 --> 2:06:49.280 I've seen them say we hate the song, we hate 2:06:49.280 --> 2:06:51.400 the song, we hate the song, while they're singing to. 2:06:51.680 --> 2:06:53.720 Song, here's our hit. 2:06:53.920 --> 2:06:57.800 We hate the song, but it you know, and you 2:06:57.800 --> 2:06:59.880 know you could talk to Mason, you know about it. 2:07:00.240 --> 2:07:02.800 He was a proponent because he's a DJ's a proponent 2:07:02.800 --> 2:07:04.560 because he knows what that means for the dance. For 2:07:05.160 --> 2:07:09.160 he claims that he pushed the group to make that happen, 2:07:09.240 --> 2:07:10.960 or allow that happen, or to even use that and 2:07:11.000 --> 2:07:13.720 let it beyond the record. But to me, that was 2:07:13.760 --> 2:07:17.440 the semil record. And you know, you talked about led 2:07:17.520 --> 2:07:20.120 Zeppelin before. If it wasn't for a Whole Lot of Love, 2:07:20.600 --> 2:07:22.560 we wouldn't know about Zeppelin. A whole Lot of Love 2:07:22.600 --> 2:07:25.560 crossed over and it was a giant hit across many formats. 2:07:26.080 --> 2:07:29.680 You know, you need a record that takes takes an 2:07:29.800 --> 2:07:33.360 artist beyond and then they have the poetic license to 2:07:33.400 --> 2:07:35.320 do whatever the hell they want to do. And so 2:07:35.440 --> 2:07:37.320 that got day Less sold the right to do anything 2:07:37.360 --> 2:07:39.120 that they wanted to do. And to this day they're 2:07:39.160 --> 2:07:41.000 doing everything that they want to do the way they 2:07:41.000 --> 2:07:43.000 want to do it. They don't always sell a lot 2:07:43.040 --> 2:07:46.880 of records, but or generate you know, an enormous amount 2:07:46.920 --> 2:07:50.360 of excitement, but at least they're doing what they want 2:07:50.400 --> 2:07:52.000 to do, which most artists don't get to do. 2:07:52.280 --> 2:07:55.600 What is it that's keeping daylight off the streamer services? 2:07:56.560 --> 2:08:02.200 I mean the Tommy Boy because Warner Brothers controls those masters, 2:08:02.200 --> 2:08:06.160 and those masters are no they have samples on them 2:08:06.200 --> 2:08:09.080 that they they don't have the contracts or something like that, 2:08:09.200 --> 2:08:12.640 and they haven't recleared them or they're not comfortable that 2:08:12.680 --> 2:08:15.640 they're covered. But it's you know, the same people that 2:08:15.720 --> 2:08:18.920 clear those samples, cleared Naughty by Nature, House of Pain, 2:08:19.040 --> 2:08:22.400 and Digital Underground samples, so and all those are available. 2:08:22.440 --> 2:08:25.840 So I don't understand why what the reason is, but 2:08:25.920 --> 2:08:26.720 I'm in there. 2:08:27.560 --> 2:08:31.040 You're not personally, you're not responsible, you're not holding it hostage. 2:08:31.280 --> 2:08:33.600 I haven't owned the old Timmy Boy catalog since two 2:08:33.600 --> 2:08:36.200 thousand and two when Warner bought it. I'm trying to 2:08:36.200 --> 2:08:38.520 buy it back right now. Hopefully by the second half 2:08:38.560 --> 2:08:40.480 of this year, I'll have it back. And that's my 2:08:40.520 --> 2:08:42.200 first order of business, Thank you very much. 2:08:42.320 --> 2:08:52.480 When all is said and done, this is what three 2:08:52.520 --> 2:08:56.720 Feet High and Rising has at least achieved, which is 2:08:57.880 --> 2:09:04.240 every sample on that record has made music experts out 2:09:04.280 --> 2:09:09.240 of anyone who was between the ages of twelve and 2:09:09.480 --> 2:09:12.960 twenty two at the time of that album came out. 2:09:13.360 --> 2:09:16.200 Now I'm searching for it. I mean, did I really 2:09:16.240 --> 2:09:19.200 care about Houses of the Holy by led Zeppelin and 2:09:19.280 --> 2:09:22.000 my sister's recollection? Second I heard that break, I was like, 2:09:22.000 --> 2:09:25.400 oh shit, that's a day long soul. Now I'm a 2:09:25.520 --> 2:09:28.600 led Zeppelin expert. I'm going through their whole catalog. Tore 2:09:28.600 --> 2:09:32.440 recontextualized all the rock stuff right before Can You Keep 2:09:32.480 --> 2:09:36.960 a Secret? Like all those things, it's packed. It's an 2:09:37.120 --> 2:09:43.080 education pig. So at no point was it ever told 2:09:43.480 --> 2:09:46.400 during the negotiations or whatever, like lawyers are talking to 2:09:46.440 --> 2:09:49.600 each other. At no point was it ever explained to 2:09:49.600 --> 2:09:52.360 the Turtles but to flowin Eddie that hey, guys, this 2:09:52.480 --> 2:09:54.760 is actually a great thing for you because now your 2:09:54.840 --> 2:10:00.720 music is getting reintroduced to a whole new audience. Was 2:10:00.760 --> 2:10:02.760 it just like fuck you pay me? Or are you 2:10:02.880 --> 2:10:06.600 really even dealing with Floe and Eddie? Is it their lawyers? 2:10:06.600 --> 2:10:09.480 Their lawyers? But evidently I found out what happened is 2:10:09.520 --> 2:10:13.160 that one of the daughters heard the record until dad, 2:10:13.200 --> 2:10:16.080 have you heard this? Now you have to understand the 2:10:16.080 --> 2:10:18.520 song is called You Showed Me by the Turtles, and 2:10:18.720 --> 2:10:20.840 I was a Turtles fan. I bought Happy Together when 2:10:20.840 --> 2:10:23.800 that came out, and I you know, I mean, I 2:10:23.960 --> 2:10:27.200 liked it. I liked the Frank Zappa version better. But 2:10:27.800 --> 2:10:30.520 the thing I really thought was interesting about it is 2:10:30.560 --> 2:10:35.920 that Prince Paul slowed down the record from forty five 2:10:35.960 --> 2:10:38.440 to thirty three and used it at thirty three. So 2:10:38.480 --> 2:10:41.560 he used a very tiny amount and an interstitial piece, 2:10:41.720 --> 2:10:44.240 So he figured, why should I even clear this? Nobody's 2:10:44.280 --> 2:10:46.560 even gonna notice, but they noticed, you know. That's the problem, 2:10:47.120 --> 2:10:49.040 even if you use a little bit and they notice. 2:10:49.080 --> 2:10:53.520 You know. But there are people who have won cases 2:10:53.560 --> 2:10:57.280 in the last two years about deminimus uses, and probably 2:10:57.360 --> 2:11:01.720 today that case they wouldn't If somebody had wanted to 2:11:01.760 --> 2:11:04.520 take that case and appeal it, they probably wouldn't win it, 2:11:04.600 --> 2:11:06.440 depending on who the judge would be, because there have 2:11:06.440 --> 2:11:08.800 been a few that for something that small and that 2:11:08.920 --> 2:11:13.400 the minimus what would not be would you know, would 2:11:13.440 --> 2:11:14.600 not be recognized. 2:11:14.200 --> 2:11:17.640 Because it's it's not even that loop, isn't even the 2:11:17.680 --> 2:11:24.200 sample that loop is. Actually you did a thing. 2:11:24.480 --> 2:11:27.160 I'm looking at an instagram that you you posted last 2:11:27.160 --> 2:11:30.760 September saying, this is what's beautiful about hip hop, and 2:11:30.800 --> 2:11:33.280 this is what I wish publishers and record labels realize. 2:11:34.080 --> 2:11:37.440 This is this is you quest love by making unattainable 2:11:37.560 --> 2:11:38.960 and only an option for the rich. 2:11:40.560 --> 2:11:40.760 Yeah. 2:11:40.880 --> 2:11:44.760 But but what these what these greedy lawyers uh and 2:11:44.880 --> 2:11:48.240 corporate leeches don't comprehend, is that sampling is an education 2:11:48.440 --> 2:11:52.760 and it gives back. And you said, driving home from 2:11:52.760 --> 2:11:57.040 Brooklyn Bowl and I hear on the radio a song 2:11:57.120 --> 2:11:59.720 that sounds like a familiar sample, I just am it 2:12:00.160 --> 2:12:03.360 and I copped the original. Actually the entire album evidently 2:12:03.360 --> 2:12:06.160 was a Jazz Crusaders record, right. Yeah, I get enlightened 2:12:06.160 --> 2:12:09.200 with more great music, and the labels get another investment 2:12:09.200 --> 2:12:11.520 in its product for me forty years after its release. 2:12:11.960 --> 2:12:14.680 This is when the music is beautiful. It isn't beautiful 2:12:14.680 --> 2:12:17.760 when you don't reinvest in your crops for real label 2:12:17.760 --> 2:12:20.879 and publishing house presidents of you meet hip hop halfway, 2:12:20.920 --> 2:12:23.840 and I'll do and it'll do some good. I love 2:12:23.880 --> 2:12:26.040 to have that conversation because I'm deep in the middle 2:12:26.040 --> 2:12:28.080 of that and I've been trying to reach you about that. 2:12:28.160 --> 2:12:29.040 So I'll do it on the air. 2:12:30.360 --> 2:12:33.320 Let's do it. Yeah, I mean, I know for a 2:12:33.400 --> 2:12:36.520 fact that I've purchased at least I mean, I'm now 2:12:36.560 --> 2:12:40.200 a guy that collects covers of songs. I know I 2:12:40.240 --> 2:12:43.680 have at least ten to fifteen copies of you showed 2:12:43.720 --> 2:12:48.959 me done by other people. You know, so they've actually 2:12:49.080 --> 2:12:53.080 gotten the return off of that use in other ways, 2:12:53.360 --> 2:12:57.880 but not really realizing the ripple effects of it. But 2:12:58.080 --> 2:13:02.680 I just feel as though because it's such an it's 2:13:02.720 --> 2:13:08.320 such a litigious atmosphere now and only the rich will 2:13:08.360 --> 2:13:13.640 be able to truly benefit from sampling that it's it's 2:13:13.680 --> 2:13:17.400 it's literally killing the music game right now. So thank 2:13:17.440 --> 2:13:18.560 you thanks for the setup. 2:13:18.920 --> 2:13:22.160 So besides still running Tommy Boy and still signing hip 2:13:22.160 --> 2:13:26.280 hop groups today and artists, I am also involved with 2:13:26.320 --> 2:13:31.280 a new startup business from Sweden called Buzz that's called 2:13:31.640 --> 2:13:35.600 track lib, and track lib is a company that's designed 2:13:35.680 --> 2:13:38.760 to make sampling fast, easy and affordable. We're going to 2:13:38.840 --> 2:13:42.000 all of the labels and publishers and getting all of 2:13:42.000 --> 2:13:45.600 the rights for masters, especially the older stuff, on a 2:13:45.600 --> 2:13:49.960 pre cleared basis, so people can download and sample a 2:13:50.040 --> 2:13:53.760 record for one hundred dollars, five hundred or twenty five 2:13:53.840 --> 2:13:57.200 hundred dollars in five minutes online without you. 2:13:57.360 --> 2:14:00.320 Okay, can I believe this song real quick? This is 2:14:00.320 --> 2:14:04.440 one of my favorite all set. That's all. I just 2:14:04.440 --> 2:14:10.400 wanted to play the air horn for that might get 2:14:10.400 --> 2:14:10.680 them a. 2:14:10.640 --> 2:14:13.800 Towel, so you know. And we're deep into it. We're 2:14:13.880 --> 2:14:16.360 very close with all three majors. We got twenty two 2:14:16.400 --> 2:14:20.240 label signed, we signed VP Records, Regae labels, we're putting, 2:14:20.480 --> 2:14:23.440 we're loading masters up now. It's in beta, private beta 2:14:23.520 --> 2:14:28.120 until October. It's going to be a revolution because for 2:14:28.240 --> 2:14:30.800 two dollars, you can download a wave file, drop it 2:14:30.840 --> 2:14:33.560 into a new mix. When you're ready to do it, 2:14:33.600 --> 2:14:36.160 you can you go back online. You can get a 2:14:36.200 --> 2:14:39.960 license in five minutes or three minutes online for as 2:14:40.000 --> 2:14:43.120 little as fifty dollars or one hundred dollars. And you 2:14:43.240 --> 2:14:45.160 have to agree to give up x percent of the 2:14:45.160 --> 2:14:47.920 derivative work on the publishing and the master's side, either 2:14:47.960 --> 2:14:50.520 ten percent, twenty five or fifty percent, depending how much 2:14:50.520 --> 2:14:52.840 of the original, how much you master you use. If 2:14:52.840 --> 2:14:56.120 it's over fifteen seconds, it's fifty percent. If it's under 2:14:56.160 --> 2:14:58.320 it's if it's under two sets, if it's two or less, 2:14:58.360 --> 2:15:02.080 it's ten percent. It's up to fifteen seconds, it's twenty 2:15:02.160 --> 2:15:06.120 five percent. That's it, so people can start sampling again 2:15:06.440 --> 2:15:07.640 and they'll be able to open up. 2:15:07.720 --> 2:15:11.240 We're I've been dreaming of this moment. 2:15:11.800 --> 2:15:14.600 That's why I've been trying to reach to reach go 2:15:14.720 --> 2:15:15.839 on your radio show. 2:15:15.640 --> 2:15:20.280 To talk to you. Someone sees it, So listen. 2:15:20.320 --> 2:15:22.760 Let me tell you who's The creative Advisory board already 2:15:22.760 --> 2:15:28.680 includes Prince Paul Large, Professor, Pete Rock, Peanut butter Wolf. 2:15:29.400 --> 2:15:31.680 You know, I wanted to talk to you about joining 2:15:31.720 --> 2:15:34.400 it too, because you're the perfect eye. You're already outspoken. 2:15:35.040 --> 2:15:38.400 I'm there. Wow, this is the greatest news. What's what's 2:15:38.440 --> 2:15:38.840 the name of. 2:15:38.840 --> 2:15:41.360 The track lib like track Liberation? Thank you? 2:15:41.440 --> 2:15:43.640 Where was this in two thousand and three? Wow? 2:15:43.720 --> 2:15:47.880 Well, and I talked to these labels, you know, when 2:15:47.920 --> 2:15:50.360 I talked to Aaron Fuchs or I talked to armand Balading, 2:15:50.360 --> 2:15:55.400 who controls the Old Judge's Parliament, And you know they're 2:15:55.440 --> 2:15:58.960 telling me. You know, arm ensued four hundred and seventy 2:15:58.960 --> 2:16:01.400 seven people for foot sample infringements and at the end 2:16:01.440 --> 2:16:04.040 of all of it break even. He didn't make any 2:16:04.120 --> 2:16:06.960 money from it, So if it had gone through track Live, 2:16:07.040 --> 2:16:08.480 he'd have made a ton of money. Because it wouldn't 2:16:08.480 --> 2:16:10.440 cost anything, and nobody would need a lawyer to clear 2:16:10.440 --> 2:16:13.600 a sample again or sample, and a replay even costs 2:16:13.600 --> 2:16:16.240 thousands of dollars, So to use the original it's cheaper 2:16:16.280 --> 2:16:19.360 now than to even do a replay, except that you 2:16:19.440 --> 2:16:21.960 have to give up part of the deriver of work. 2:16:22.000 --> 2:16:25.200 But I think that's a fair thing, and I'm telling 2:16:25.240 --> 2:16:27.880 all the rights holders you'll make more money because the 2:16:27.880 --> 2:16:29.920 only person who can afford to clear samples now is 2:16:30.000 --> 2:16:33.880 Kanye and maybe eight other people. There's like literally ten 2:16:33.959 --> 2:16:38.000 people who can afford fifty thousand dollars per track to 2:16:38.120 --> 2:16:38.879 clear a sample. 2:16:38.959 --> 2:16:41.360 Now, I'm glad you see it the way that I 2:16:41.560 --> 2:16:45.160 meant it, like it came from a heartfelt place. One 2:16:45.200 --> 2:16:53.080 of the aforementioned executives that you talked about actually tried 2:16:53.120 --> 2:16:59.760 to call my boss's boss's boss at my current job 2:17:01.000 --> 2:17:05.199 to get me dealt with because he felt as though 2:17:05.520 --> 2:17:10.199 I was trying to, first of all, be anti Semitic 2:17:10.600 --> 2:17:17.280 and disrespectful to his way of practice, which was never 2:17:17.320 --> 2:17:21.400 the case whatsoever. But this is a guy that, as 2:17:21.400 --> 2:17:28.120 far as I know, has made a living suing rappers, 2:17:28.520 --> 2:17:35.680 exactly rappers just for b boxing, just for using even 2:17:36.520 --> 2:17:39.240 half of his even a cake or a snare of 2:17:39.280 --> 2:17:42.800 his work. I mean, I understand it's a business, but 2:17:43.520 --> 2:17:46.840 you know, George Clinton once explained, he's like, yo, the 2:17:46.879 --> 2:17:49.920 reason why it wasn't by design that you know, I'm 2:17:49.920 --> 2:17:54.080 part of the West Coast g funk fabric. He's like, 2:17:54.200 --> 2:17:57.959 I came in cheap. He's like, right, I came in 2:17:58.040 --> 2:17:59.680 so cheap that I made you want to come back 2:17:59.720 --> 2:18:03.800 from more. And my prices were fair, and thus people 2:18:03.840 --> 2:18:07.320 always came back to me. And I just never understood, how, 2:18:08.440 --> 2:18:11.840 you know, in any type of music. I doubt that 2:18:12.240 --> 2:18:15.240 any no type of music, I mean even something as uh, 2:18:16.160 --> 2:18:21.160 let's let's pick fleet You told me, Steve that either 2:18:21.240 --> 2:18:28.920 you or Captain Kirk told me that Fleetwood Mac's uh dreams. 2:18:29.760 --> 2:18:33.760 If you look at the original reel on uh of 2:18:33.760 --> 2:18:38.960 of of of of the real the track listing, it's 2:18:38.959 --> 2:18:42.760 still called spinners. I'll be around sound alike, you know 2:18:42.840 --> 2:18:46.360 what I mean? Wow? So it's like no, but that's wow. 2:18:46.400 --> 2:18:50.640 It is a sound like yeah, exactly. So there's no 2:18:50.760 --> 2:18:54.879 song that's created that doesn't start at least with playing 2:18:54.879 --> 2:18:58.440 another song and figuring out, okay, now, what's my version 2:18:58.480 --> 2:19:00.160 of this? If I just take the Rubik's Q but 2:19:00.200 --> 2:19:03.480 the fabric and mix it up. But I feel as 2:19:03.480 --> 2:19:07.560 though the music business, which is catalogs, are suffering right 2:19:07.560 --> 2:19:11.160 now because no one's going back to those catalogs and 2:19:11.240 --> 2:19:13.600 using them unless it's being marketing. 2:19:13.640 --> 2:19:15.520 That's my argument. When I'm talking to all of them, 2:19:15.520 --> 2:19:19.240 I said, you've got hundreds of thousands of tracks, and 2:19:19.280 --> 2:19:21.440 in the case of the majors and even indies, tens 2:19:21.440 --> 2:19:24.680 of thousands of tracks that you don't get sync deals for, 2:19:24.879 --> 2:19:28.000 you don't get licenses for, nobody knows about, and they 2:19:28.040 --> 2:19:31.480 sit there collecting dust. That's the stuff we want. We 2:19:31.560 --> 2:19:34.880 want create diggers to be digital and find stuff fast 2:19:35.160 --> 2:19:38.040 and use it often so that you can have a hit. 2:19:38.280 --> 2:19:40.000 And I got the list of the one hundred most 2:19:40.000 --> 2:19:41.199 sampled records of all time. 2:19:41.240 --> 2:19:41.920 Here hit me. 2:19:42.520 --> 2:19:44.800 The first is the B side of a record by 2:19:44.840 --> 2:19:47.720 the Winstons. It's called Ammon Brother, you know, and that's 2:19:47.760 --> 2:19:50.440 the most sampled record of all time. The second one 2:19:50.480 --> 2:19:53.280 is Cheanze labat by B side. The third one is 2:19:53.360 --> 2:19:56.600 Lynn Collins. Think which is it takes two? Right? 2:19:56.920 --> 2:19:57.120 Wait? 2:19:57.120 --> 2:19:59.720 What'll second B side change? Labat? 2:20:00.200 --> 2:20:01.840 Oh Fresh of course? 2:20:02.000 --> 2:20:06.040 Right? James Brown, Funky drummer. And by the way, the 2:20:06.160 --> 2:20:08.680 James Brown catalog is already in for track lib. The 2:20:08.879 --> 2:20:11.959 guy who controls the estate wants it to be in Yeah, 2:20:12.000 --> 2:20:16.520 he does, and universal and I warn a chapel who 2:20:16.520 --> 2:20:19.840 controls the publishing are you know, are happy to make 2:20:19.840 --> 2:20:22.440 it available because the artist wants it. Some of the times, 2:20:22.480 --> 2:20:24.879 the problem is that the artist wants to approve each 2:20:25.000 --> 2:20:27.480 and every sample, and that won't work in track lib 2:20:27.480 --> 2:20:28.880 because everything has to be preapproved. 2:20:28.879 --> 2:20:29.760 Sorry, Bob James. 2:20:30.000 --> 2:20:34.480 Yeah, when you're shopping, you want to be able to 2:20:34.520 --> 2:20:36.720 know what something's going to cost before you buy it. 2:20:37.640 --> 2:20:39.680 People who sample have no idea what it's going to 2:20:39.720 --> 2:20:41.640 be cost or even if they have permission to you. 2:20:42.560 --> 2:20:44.760 So I'm telling people that ninety eight percent of the 2:20:44.800 --> 2:20:48.280 sampling that happens now is unauthorized or replaced. So you're 2:20:48.320 --> 2:20:51.120 losing all the money. And everyone's telling me, hey, our 2:20:51.160 --> 2:20:54.760 sampling business has gotten way down. Duh. You know at 2:20:54.800 --> 2:20:57.080 some point, you know there's five people left that can 2:20:57.120 --> 2:20:59.959 afford the sample. You got it exactly right. Dougie Fry 2:21:00.240 --> 2:21:04.000 is number five, Lotty Dottie, James Brown, James Brown with 2:21:04.000 --> 2:21:09.760 funky presidents yep. Then public Enemy bring the noise, which 2:21:09.840 --> 2:21:12.240 got to have samples on it already too. So the 2:21:12.280 --> 2:21:15.880 other thing with track lip is we can't put samples. 2:21:16.360 --> 2:21:19.120 We can't sample a sample. So what we need to 2:21:19.120 --> 2:21:22.200 do is get stems of the acappellas for the hip 2:21:22.240 --> 2:21:24.720 hop stuff, so people could sample the wrap stuff without 2:21:24.760 --> 2:21:27.000 resampling the samples. You got to go back to the 2:21:27.040 --> 2:21:30.160 original sample to get the samp. But we can direct 2:21:30.200 --> 2:21:32.320 people then honey drippers and Pizza the President. 2:21:32.360 --> 2:21:34.920 I was going to say, Pizza President. I thought that 2:21:35.040 --> 2:21:38.240 been number one. Well that's the one. 2:21:38.200 --> 2:21:40.440 Pizza the President is probably going to go to number one, 2:21:40.800 --> 2:21:45.199 considering the President today. 2:21:48.240 --> 2:21:49.760 So here here's a question for you. 2:21:49.840 --> 2:21:52.560 Let's say I buy a track off of the service, 2:21:53.200 --> 2:21:55.520 but it sounds too clean, you know. Let's say I 2:21:55.600 --> 2:21:57.680 have a vinyl copy that sounds dirty and I want 2:21:57.680 --> 2:22:00.520 the dusty and all that, you know, I want all 2:22:00.560 --> 2:22:03.760 that that that sonic character in the sample. Am I 2:22:03.760 --> 2:22:07.160 still allowed to buy the track online and still use because. 2:22:07.440 --> 2:22:12.680 The one that you're gonna get especially fingerprinted and watermarked, 2:22:13.040 --> 2:22:16.160 and you can always add vinyl crushy sounds as an effect, 2:22:16.800 --> 2:22:19.520 if that's what I mean. I remember buying Dala Soul 2:22:19.560 --> 2:22:21.680 a record cleaner so that they could clean the records 2:22:21.720 --> 2:22:25.280 for the samples, but they never wanted to do anyway. 2:22:25.120 --> 2:22:28.280 They were also according to a dot which was another thing. 2:22:28.800 --> 2:22:30.800 Where do we go to get it? What's the site? 2:22:31.160 --> 2:22:32.040 Tracklib dot com? 2:22:32.040 --> 2:22:32.840 Tracklib dot com? 2:22:32.840 --> 2:22:39.080 Okay, right, I think we're going I forget the show. Wait, 2:22:39.080 --> 2:22:43.760 we still got lots even we got a lot to cover. 2:22:43.840 --> 2:22:47.840 And number nine was Melvin Bliss synthetic substitution. And the 2:22:47.959 --> 2:22:50.640 number ten was run DMC. Here we go Live at 2:22:50.680 --> 2:22:51.280 the Funhouse. 2:22:51.680 --> 2:22:54.600 Ah yeah, oh damn, I can't tell you. 2:22:54.600 --> 2:22:56.920 Another one I thought was really interesting. Number eleven was 2:22:57.000 --> 2:22:58.039 Mountain Long Red. 2:22:58.120 --> 2:23:00.480 Oh yeah, of course I love that. That was a 2:23:00.520 --> 2:23:02.240 coup I used to go see play when I was 2:23:02.280 --> 2:23:05.039 a kid. Yes, absolutely, that makes sense. I never would 2:23:05.040 --> 2:23:07.240 have thought, Wait, you have your top one hundred? 2:23:07.320 --> 2:23:07.400 Ye? 2:23:08.120 --> 2:23:10.000 Can I hear the bottom ten? Can I hear ninety 2:23:10.040 --> 2:23:10.360 to one. 2:23:13.240 --> 2:23:18.199 Ninety? Led Zeppelin? When the levy breaks? Von Mason bounced 2:23:18.200 --> 2:23:20.400 for Rock Skate Roll, Herman Kelly and Life dance to 2:23:20.400 --> 2:23:22.840 the Drummers beat, which I can't believe is that low 2:23:24.160 --> 2:23:28.480 knee deep Funkadelic. We just talked about Detroit Emeralds you're 2:23:28.480 --> 2:23:32.760 getting a little too smart, Rob Bass. It takes two 2:23:33.560 --> 2:23:37.520 already a Linn Collin sample, so it must be a 2:23:37.600 --> 2:23:42.480 part that's hit. It is often used Blowfly Sysame Street, 2:23:43.680 --> 2:23:47.040 that's funny. The Brothers j ain't we funking now? 2:23:48.280 --> 2:23:48.760 It was. 2:23:50.440 --> 2:23:57.120 Okay, okay with that, Yeah, Curtis blow Tough, uh Dja 2:23:57.280 --> 2:24:00.280 Trace and Pete Parson, Sniper and Dyke. 2:24:00.320 --> 2:24:02.520 But and the Blazer's lot of woman be a woman 2:24:02.959 --> 2:24:05.160 that I let a man be a man, which is 2:24:05.959 --> 2:24:07.240 we used it with sets to sign it. 2:24:07.360 --> 2:24:09.160 Yeah. I was about to say that the Sally thing 2:24:09.200 --> 2:24:12.720 that's number one hundred, that's I think, well, okay, at 2:24:12.840 --> 2:24:15.480 least in the especially in the case of when the 2:24:15.560 --> 2:24:20.000 levee breaks. Yeah, a lot of people just gunsy about 2:24:20.120 --> 2:24:23.480 using certain publishers because they know that they're going to 2:24:23.560 --> 2:24:27.640 come for the loot. Yeah, like a lot of that stuff. 2:24:27.720 --> 2:24:30.240 I mean, there's no reason why in Peace to President 2:24:30.360 --> 2:24:35.000 is the number one sampled number eight, But there's no 2:24:35.040 --> 2:24:37.920 reason why it should not be the number one because 2:24:38.320 --> 2:24:40.080 that's the well. 2:24:40.160 --> 2:24:42.640 Yeah, and when it gets to be part of Track Live, 2:24:42.640 --> 2:24:43.480 it'll go to number one. 2:24:43.520 --> 2:24:45.080 Then oh my god, what happens? 2:24:45.200 --> 2:24:45.360 You know? 2:24:45.400 --> 2:24:48.520 The thing is everybody uses it. So what we really 2:24:48.520 --> 2:24:50.280 want to encourage is great, we want to have as 2:24:50.320 --> 2:24:52.959 much of this stuff as we can get, but we 2:24:53.000 --> 2:24:54.880 want to drive you know, if we can't get Dyke 2:24:54.920 --> 2:24:57.280 in the Blazers, what sounds like that, So we want 2:24:57.320 --> 2:24:59.480 to direct people to. If we can't get it, we'll 2:24:59.480 --> 2:25:01.560 still have an there and direct people to something that's 2:25:01.920 --> 2:25:05.440 close enough that people could still use affordably, because we 2:25:05.480 --> 2:25:07.680 don't want people to go away or cheat because they 2:25:07.720 --> 2:25:10.720 can't use exactly that, especially if they're using this as 2:25:11.080 --> 2:25:14.440 a musical creation tool, which track Club will become. Eventually, 2:25:14.440 --> 2:25:17.720 they'll be built into all the digital audio workstations. It's 2:25:17.720 --> 2:25:19.959 gonna be in logic, it's gonna be in the fruity loops. 2:25:19.959 --> 2:25:23.080 And wouldn't it be cool if questlov had you know, 2:25:23.160 --> 2:25:26.240 some custom drum breaks available on track lad for sale. 2:25:27.200 --> 2:25:31.320 You know what what you don't know is happening right 2:25:31.360 --> 2:25:36.200 now is like I'm doing my own I'm doing my 2:25:36.240 --> 2:25:40.199 own homemade version of that now because as we speak, 2:25:40.800 --> 2:25:45.400 my phone is probably buzzing to death. Ever since late January, 2:25:45.480 --> 2:25:49.480 I've gathered the entire gods of hip hop beat making, 2:25:49.600 --> 2:25:52.800 from Primo to Pete Rock to Lars Professor to not 2:25:53.520 --> 2:25:57.080 to just Blaze the Swiss Beats, to Kareem Riggins to 2:25:57.240 --> 2:26:00.640 DJ Harrison. Those guys are like He's blowing their minds 2:26:00.720 --> 2:26:02.720 right now as we speak on this phone, Like I 2:26:02.840 --> 2:26:06.680 literally in ninth wonder like I've I have on my 2:26:07.040 --> 2:26:13.039 text chain thirty one beat makers and I've been giving 2:26:13.080 --> 2:26:17.040 them a break beat a day. But as of now, 2:26:17.040 --> 2:26:20.400 of March first, they've done turned it into like I'm 2:26:20.400 --> 2:26:22.440 still giving them a break beat a day, but now 2:26:22.480 --> 2:26:25.960 they're just on some next shit. They are now making 2:26:26.000 --> 2:26:34.080 records together, they're collect they're producing Conway's record like they're 2:26:35.440 --> 2:26:38.039 so something's happening. Even right now as we speak, like 2:26:38.080 --> 2:26:42.160 my battery is probably going low because now not Pete 2:26:42.200 --> 2:26:47.920 Rocket Notts are having a isolated baseline contest. It's like 2:26:48.080 --> 2:26:52.320 name literally like that's going on right now. I know 2:26:52.400 --> 2:26:54.280 there has to be at least three to four acts 2:26:54.280 --> 2:26:57.360 that you almost had that you didn't get, Like, are 2:26:57.360 --> 2:26:59.800 there any that comes to mind, like I almost signed them, 2:26:59.879 --> 2:27:00.920 or we almost had. 2:27:00.760 --> 2:27:03.480 Them, or I dropped them before they got big? About that? 2:27:03.560 --> 2:27:06.680 Forgive Prince Rocky. 2:27:07.360 --> 2:27:12.039 You're talking about Yeah, I know you guys are geniuses here. 2:27:12.040 --> 2:27:14.080 You gotta realize that there's a lot of people listening. 2:27:14.440 --> 2:27:18.480 If you listen to that beat, that is classic rizz joint. 2:27:18.520 --> 2:27:20.560 I mean it's weird though. It's like based off a 2:27:20.600 --> 2:27:28.879 George Michael hook. I got to Ladies, Wait that wasn't that? 2:27:29.280 --> 2:27:33.640 Was that? On Faith? It's the song is based on 2:27:33.680 --> 2:27:37.920 a George Michael and Jody Wattley songs on the Jody 2:27:37.920 --> 2:27:40.800 Watley album. Oh okay, the first or the second one? 2:27:40.879 --> 2:27:44.320 Was the first one? Okay? Well, I knew it was. 2:27:44.400 --> 2:27:46.119 You guys are scary man, you know everything. 2:27:47.440 --> 2:27:50.400 It's literally a collective of of music nerds right here. 2:27:51.520 --> 2:28:01.680 So so, so who did you Who was a close 2:28:01.760 --> 2:28:08.119 call for the label besides the Roots New Addition? Yeah, 2:28:08.160 --> 2:28:10.320 I was going to say, you had Arthur Baker, Like 2:28:10.360 --> 2:28:10.800 why not? 2:28:11.040 --> 2:28:14.400 So no, we had the Johnson Crew. So Michael Johnson's 2:28:14.440 --> 2:28:17.560 brother is Maurice Starr. Maurice Star produced New Addition. They 2:28:17.560 --> 2:28:21.920 brought it to me a Candy Girl right. And this 2:28:22.080 --> 2:28:24.720 was right after I got the letter from kraft Work 2:28:26.520 --> 2:28:28.720 and I was shell shocked and I listened to it. 2:28:28.800 --> 2:28:31.560 I go, well, if Kraftwork has a problem with Planet 2:28:31.640 --> 2:28:34.879 Rocky Jack, we got a big problem with the Jackson 2:28:34.920 --> 2:28:37.879 five on this and they're ten times more powerful. What 2:28:38.000 --> 2:28:40.800 will I do? So I passed, And that was one 2:28:40.800 --> 2:28:44.160 of the dumb dist threads. Definitely, never act out of fear. 2:28:44.200 --> 2:28:46.440 Always just do it and figure the shit out later, 2:28:46.520 --> 2:28:48.800 you know, go for it, you know. And then the 2:28:48.879 --> 2:28:51.720 other one is there was there were a couple of 2:28:51.760 --> 2:28:55.840 them that I came close to getting, but I can 2:28:55.920 --> 2:28:58.039 get I wanted. I really wanted Dougie Fresh. I never 2:28:58.080 --> 2:28:58.440 got that. 2:28:59.240 --> 2:29:03.680 Lottie Dotty. Yeah. Wow, that was when it was One Records. 2:29:04.400 --> 2:29:07.600 Well it was Dana's last Fantasy. 2:29:08.320 --> 2:29:11.920 Yeah. No, actually it got sold to Fantasy. Later it 2:29:11.959 --> 2:29:14.040 was Donya. I don't think it was Fantasy. Originally it 2:29:14.080 --> 2:29:17.080 was Donya as an independent label out of the Bay Area, 2:29:17.200 --> 2:29:19.439 and then I think it went into Fantasy. 2:29:20.040 --> 2:29:21.039 So's an odd choice. 2:29:21.200 --> 2:29:22.720 I know, it's really weird. 2:29:23.080 --> 2:29:25.120 You pursued him and he was like, nope, I'm going on. 2:29:25.280 --> 2:29:28.000 He performed at Tommy Boy offices. He came to our 2:29:28.040 --> 2:29:30.320 offices up on ninety second Street, and we used to 2:29:30.320 --> 2:29:33.040 do this Wednesday night thing where groups could come up 2:29:33.040 --> 2:29:35.880 and audition and do stuff. You know. We did it, 2:29:35.920 --> 2:29:37.680 didn't do it for very long, but one of the 2:29:37.720 --> 2:29:40.560 people who came by, and I remember him beatboxing in 2:29:40.600 --> 2:29:44.400 the office. Was was him, and there were a few others, 2:29:44.400 --> 2:29:46.680 you know. I sometimes I don't always know about him 2:29:46.720 --> 2:29:50.240 because especially after nineteen ninety when the company started to 2:29:50.280 --> 2:29:53.160 have a lot of employees and got really big, sometimes 2:29:53.240 --> 2:29:55.520 people come in or different A and our guys had 2:29:55.520 --> 2:29:58.240 stuff Like I just was talking to Lord Jamar the 2:29:58.240 --> 2:30:01.480 other day, was by the office and he said brand 2:30:01.560 --> 2:30:03.879 Nubian was supposed to be on Tommy Boy, but Dante 2:30:04.080 --> 2:30:08.599 was the A and R guy, Dante the scrub, and he. 2:30:08.120 --> 2:30:10.120 He was our second He went to a lecture. He 2:30:10.240 --> 2:30:13.280 was our second guest on the show. Oh yeah, so yeah, 2:30:13.360 --> 2:30:15.840 I mean, where was your relationship with Dante? 2:30:17.520 --> 2:30:18.880 He was then one of the A and R guys. 2:30:18.879 --> 2:30:20.280 He's the one who brought in Queen Land TeaF so 2:30:20.280 --> 2:30:22.680 we're talking about Queen the t for that, that's the expression. 2:30:23.080 --> 2:30:25.760 So he's the A and OUR guy, the one an 2:30:25.879 --> 2:30:27.520 R guy and Tommy Boy who brought in the most 2:30:27.520 --> 2:30:29.840 stuff we got. We had a lot of a lot 2:30:29.879 --> 2:30:32.119 of A and R guys, dozens. He's the only one 2:30:32.160 --> 2:30:35.000 I can remember as actually having impact in bringing in 2:30:35.160 --> 2:30:36.440 artists that actually made money. 2:30:36.680 --> 2:30:41.039 So did you trust this year? Yeah, and I mean 2:30:41.560 --> 2:30:43.080 I know that with A and RS they have to 2:30:43.080 --> 2:30:46.680 watch the budget make sure that that doesn't go over 2:30:46.879 --> 2:30:51.080 any of those things. Like was he like your trustworthy, 2:30:51.320 --> 2:30:53.920 your best student, or however you want to he was. 2:30:55.080 --> 2:30:56.720 He was his own best student. You know, he knew 2:30:56.720 --> 2:30:59.600 what he wanted. He wasn't really interested. You know, he 2:30:59.720 --> 2:31:02.040 has his own way of seeing things, at least at 2:31:02.080 --> 2:31:03.920 that time. He's let's call it impetuous. 2:31:04.680 --> 2:31:06.120 But at the time, did you know that he was 2:31:06.120 --> 2:31:07.080 bringing you history? 2:31:08.280 --> 2:31:11.720 Yeah? He did with I mean he was he was 2:31:11.720 --> 2:31:13.640 our trusted A and our guy. So yeah, he brought 2:31:13.720 --> 2:31:15.680 some stuff in, so that was great. He brought in 2:31:15.720 --> 2:31:18.680 a couple of cool, really great things. And I can 2:31:18.720 --> 2:31:22.760 tell you I appreciate him more ten years later, after 2:31:22.840 --> 2:31:24.760 I went through twelve other A R people who didn't 2:31:24.760 --> 2:31:27.360 ever bring anything I could really think. You know, what 2:31:27.400 --> 2:31:30.360 he did was pretty great, you know, but you know, 2:31:30.440 --> 2:31:34.840 he was short tempered and impatient about stuff. He also 2:31:35.360 --> 2:31:37.600 didn't always want to hear the other side of you know, 2:31:37.640 --> 2:31:39.600 the corporate shit we have to deal with, you know, 2:31:39.680 --> 2:31:42.520 his corporations to get things through and to the cost 2:31:42.600 --> 2:31:45.280 and making things happen. So we could always do everything, 2:31:45.440 --> 2:31:48.960 but you know, and they're all also there are other elements. 2:31:49.000 --> 2:31:50.840 And he also wasn't a guy who liked to bring 2:31:50.879 --> 2:31:54.120 the record to radio and get exposure for artists. And 2:31:54.240 --> 2:31:56.680 so when whenever we looked at artists, we looked at 2:31:56.920 --> 2:32:00.280 their unique appeal and then we look at what what 2:32:00.360 --> 2:32:02.680 is their route to exposure for them? How can we 2:32:02.800 --> 2:32:06.200 get exposure? I mean we signed artists that had like 2:32:06.320 --> 2:32:09.400 Dala Soul. There was no route to exposure when we 2:32:09.440 --> 2:32:12.160 signed Daala. So but sometimes you just do things because 2:32:12.200 --> 2:32:16.080 you love it. If Dala Soul was half a million 2:32:16.240 --> 2:32:18.400 dollars to sign, we wouldn't have signed Daya so we 2:32:18.440 --> 2:32:18.879 couldn't have. 2:32:19.560 --> 2:32:22.160 I was gonna say, uh, Poss told me that the 2:32:22.640 --> 2:32:25.440 recording budget for three feet High it was like twenty 2:32:25.520 --> 2:32:31.320 eight thousand dollars exactly. Wow, how's that? How's that even 2:32:31.400 --> 2:32:31.920 able to have? 2:32:32.920 --> 2:32:34.600 I think we might have cleared the samples on that 2:32:34.640 --> 2:32:36.560 budget too in those days. 2:32:36.600 --> 2:32:39.440 That tells you how bad it is today. No, no, 2:32:39.840 --> 2:32:43.760 but I'm just saying just in comparison. You know, I'm 2:32:43.840 --> 2:32:46.200 feeling like my early years was like nightmares. 2:32:46.240 --> 2:32:49.240 But if I if you know, when you're an independent 2:32:49.320 --> 2:32:51.840 label I always think about, you know, the days of 2:32:51.879 --> 2:32:54.440 Morris Leeve. We were talking about before seven inches is 2:32:54.440 --> 2:32:57.280 all that's sold in seven inches label sold seven inches 2:32:57.320 --> 2:32:59.880 to stores for twenty nine cents, and they cost twelve 2:33:00.000 --> 2:33:02.200 sense to make, so the margins were really tiny. So 2:33:02.680 --> 2:33:05.520 a gold record might have meant, you know, one hundred 2:33:05.560 --> 2:33:08.320 thousand dollars in those days. You know, in this era 2:33:08.480 --> 2:33:10.560 we were selling twelve inches, and twelve inches at four 2:33:10.640 --> 2:33:12.440 ninety eight was how we made most of our money. 2:33:12.520 --> 2:33:15.320 The album sales were ancillary. Most of our artists, we 2:33:15.320 --> 2:33:20.039 did deals for twelve inches and an option for an 2:33:20.040 --> 2:33:22.480 album that we would pick up later when we had 2:33:22.520 --> 2:33:24.280 to make we I think with Dala we made a 2:33:24.360 --> 2:33:27.039 firm option for an album. If we didn't, we picked 2:33:27.040 --> 2:33:29.560 it up right away, even before we released Me Myself 2:33:29.560 --> 2:33:31.600 and I, because we knew what it was. But the 2:33:31.640 --> 2:33:36.840 deal was economical enough that we could justify it taking 2:33:36.879 --> 2:33:39.200 a risk. And so what you said about sampling is 2:33:39.240 --> 2:33:43.040 also true to artists. An artist that's saying something very 2:33:43.080 --> 2:33:45.760 different than what everyone else is saying right now, or 2:33:45.840 --> 2:33:49.120 has a sound that's unique and doesn't sound like what's 2:33:49.160 --> 2:33:51.840 out there, shouldn't expect to get the kind of deal 2:33:51.879 --> 2:33:53.880 that somebody that sounds like Rihanna is going to get 2:33:53.920 --> 2:33:57.440 because people who think it's the next rounda will pay rion, 2:33:57.640 --> 2:33:59.960 you know, next round of money. People who are saying, look, 2:34:00.080 --> 2:34:01.959 this is a fifty to one shot, but I love it. 2:34:02.440 --> 2:34:05.800 That music should still come out. We need more crazy 2:34:05.840 --> 2:34:09.760 records coming out that break expectations and that we don't 2:34:09.760 --> 2:34:13.560 have to have sales expectations. When an artist signs for 2:34:13.800 --> 2:34:15.720 half a million dollars or even for two hundred and 2:34:15.720 --> 2:34:19.240 fifty thousand dollars are way high. And if you don't 2:34:19.760 --> 2:34:22.280 if the first single isn't a hit, you're dropped. I mean, 2:34:22.280 --> 2:34:25.200 you heard all the Interscope stories about these artists. They 2:34:25.200 --> 2:34:27.240 were signing for a million dollars and dropped before the 2:34:27.240 --> 2:34:30.560 album came out the first single didn't hit. It's too expensive. 2:34:31.440 --> 2:34:36.560 There's taking gigantic advantages. Advances is not really the best 2:34:36.600 --> 2:34:39.440 advantage of the artist. The artists really should say, how 2:34:39.520 --> 2:34:41.280 do I get a bigger piece in the back end 2:34:41.560 --> 2:34:44.240 than a giant piece in the front end. But managers 2:34:44.560 --> 2:34:48.119 commission that piece, lawyers commission that piece, so everyone gets 2:34:48.160 --> 2:34:51.600 bad advice. Artists that are super creative hold on to 2:34:51.720 --> 2:34:54.600 as much of the equity as you can hold on 2:34:54.640 --> 2:34:58.400 to it and get paid a bigger piece and take 2:34:58.440 --> 2:35:00.959 a smaller advance and always get more times at bat 2:35:01.080 --> 2:35:01.760 like more times it. 2:35:01.879 --> 2:35:03.680 Yeah, it's like, yo, if my first one don't pop, 2:35:03.800 --> 2:35:06.560 at least let me get exactly. 2:35:06.680 --> 2:35:08.840 My thing is, what if it's the third swing or 2:35:08.840 --> 2:35:11.400 the fourth swing. All those artists that signed to the majors, 2:35:11.440 --> 2:35:14.520 they don't get a third swing. It's strike two, you're out, 2:35:15.879 --> 2:35:18.720 Strike one, you're out. You know what if their best 2:35:18.760 --> 2:35:20.800 record is on the second album, You're not getting to 2:35:20.840 --> 2:35:22.600 the second album. It's just not going to happen in 2:35:22.640 --> 2:35:27.000 this economics. So you either let your lawyers and managers 2:35:27.040 --> 2:35:29.360 from the old days still convince you got to get 2:35:29.680 --> 2:35:32.800 the biggest upfront deal because it's good for them, for 2:35:32.879 --> 2:35:35.360 the biggest you know, from the biggest labels, or you 2:35:35.440 --> 2:35:38.080 signed to an indie or put your record out yourself 2:35:38.120 --> 2:35:40.520 on tune core. But if you know, you still need 2:35:40.560 --> 2:35:43.760 a team that's got to help compliment and build a 2:35:43.800 --> 2:35:46.519 marketing plan and execute and try to get you exposure 2:35:46.560 --> 2:35:50.160 and help you with a reality check and you know, 2:35:50.280 --> 2:35:54.160 guide you through the process. You know, I don't know, 2:35:54.200 --> 2:35:56.360 you know, it just seems to me like that. There's 2:35:57.080 --> 2:35:59.119 I think that in this day and age, artists should 2:35:59.160 --> 2:36:02.920 be smarter. They shouldn't be taking traditional record deals anymore. 2:36:03.040 --> 2:36:05.240 You said, you have a meet coming up out there, 2:36:05.360 --> 2:36:08.640 you have a meeting with Naughty by Nature and there's 2:36:08.680 --> 2:36:13.000 a story about trech and some wildlife in the offices. 2:36:19.360 --> 2:36:19.879 Was that real? 2:36:20.320 --> 2:36:20.720 Yeah? 2:36:20.920 --> 2:36:21.840 Okay, that was real? 2:36:22.360 --> 2:36:23.520 Yeah? 2:36:23.680 --> 2:36:24.280 What happened? 2:36:25.560 --> 2:36:25.760 Yeah? 2:36:25.800 --> 2:36:28.000 How did what? What was that situation? And how did 2:36:28.000 --> 2:36:28.840 that situation go? 2:36:28.959 --> 2:36:31.400 First, I want to say, now, Tommy Boy only ever 2:36:31.560 --> 2:36:35.320 had to have guards or any kind of armed anything 2:36:35.360 --> 2:36:37.360 in our office two days. In the history of the company, 2:36:37.640 --> 2:36:40.160 we never had bulletproof glass. We never had beef with 2:36:40.280 --> 2:36:42.560 artists or anything like that. But there was a time 2:36:42.920 --> 2:36:46.480 when Trench wasn't in touch with KG and Vinnie or whatever, 2:36:46.560 --> 2:36:49.440 and we were working trying to work something out where 2:36:49.480 --> 2:36:52.760 they can do something on somebody else's record, and by 2:36:52.800 --> 2:36:56.360 the way, it had already been worked out and with 2:36:56.400 --> 2:36:59.160 everybody else, Buttretched didn't know, and he was pissed off. 2:36:59.200 --> 2:37:01.760 So he came and he but he let some garter 2:37:01.920 --> 2:37:04.920 snakes and mice from the pet store loose in the office. 2:37:05.600 --> 2:37:08.520 And I found out later that were you in the 2:37:08.560 --> 2:37:12.280 office with Now. A lawyer told him to do it. 2:37:13.120 --> 2:37:15.840 Paul Marshall, who passed a few years ago, who was 2:37:15.840 --> 2:37:18.039 actually the lawyer that represented the Beatles when they went 2:37:18.040 --> 2:37:21.560 to VJ. I actually told him that they should do 2:37:21.640 --> 2:37:24.320 it full Marshall told me this, which I found. 2:37:24.480 --> 2:37:26.440 I just want to read one an hour before when 2:37:26.480 --> 2:37:33.240 he's at like pet Co. Yeah, are you looking at this? 2:37:33.320 --> 2:37:39.400 A whole house pit something like that by the Snakeable. 2:37:41.560 --> 2:37:45.560 But now y'all are cool, now, y'all? Yeah, okay, cool, Now, okay, 2:37:45.720 --> 2:37:46.920 you're trying to work with them. 2:37:47.000 --> 2:37:50.080 You know. The thing about Naughty is all right, so 2:37:50.120 --> 2:37:53.200 we're There have been some times where we've done shows 2:37:53.200 --> 2:37:59.040 with Naughty and between the audience reaction and just the 2:37:59.240 --> 2:38:02.720 orange slaught of hit after hit after hit after hit 2:38:03.000 --> 2:38:07.280 anthems like I mean, Naughty by Nature is catalog bar none. 2:38:07.440 --> 2:38:09.400 I mean, I'm so At the time when I was 2:38:09.440 --> 2:38:13.440 playing it, I was like, Wow, when they came out, 2:38:14.240 --> 2:38:17.640 I didn't show my full appreciations as I should have. 2:38:17.720 --> 2:38:20.400 But now in like, there should be no reason in 2:38:20.440 --> 2:38:29.120 the world why they don't work until they're ninety. I mean, 2:38:29.400 --> 2:38:33.400 not until they're they're they're long gone, Like these songs 2:38:33.480 --> 2:38:36.800 still work and as long as Naughty is willing to 2:38:36.840 --> 2:38:39.400 do it. I mean I almost feel as though, like 2:38:40.600 --> 2:38:47.920 Naughty is probably the most credible pop hip hop act. 2:38:48.560 --> 2:38:51.520 I would say maybe either them what I'm with you 2:38:51.680 --> 2:38:54.560 them and like Wu Tang because like the first Wu 2:38:54.600 --> 2:38:57.840 Tang album, but I don't think. 2:38:57.760 --> 2:39:01.760 Wu Tang knew That's the thing. It's like, like Wu 2:39:01.800 --> 2:39:06.240 Tang's first record is full of all these modern yeah, 2:39:06.320 --> 2:39:10.080 like they're referencing Donnie Marie and Underdog and the Flintstones 2:39:10.120 --> 2:39:13.680 and you know, a schoolhouse rock like real. I mean, 2:39:13.720 --> 2:39:16.520 they're like day La Soul, but it's so grimy that 2:39:16.560 --> 2:39:20.640 you forget that they're coming from that. But just in 2:39:20.720 --> 2:39:26.200 terms of Naughty by Nature, it's like they're giving you 2:39:26.320 --> 2:39:31.879 anthem after anthem after anthem. How come? And I'm asking 2:39:31.959 --> 2:39:37.920 this kind of is two short questions. How why weren't 2:39:37.959 --> 2:39:45.199 they marketed as like pop hitmakers? Well, no, no, no, I mean. 2:39:47.920 --> 2:39:55.920 Because that is death if we had done that, if 2:39:55.920 --> 2:40:00.840 we had worked there, I mean, that is Flames the Machete. 2:40:00.959 --> 2:40:02.800 I mean, they were pop back, but they had to 2:40:02.840 --> 2:40:06.280 be disguised a little bit harder, you know, otherwise it 2:40:06.320 --> 2:40:07.360 would have come off as whack. 2:40:07.840 --> 2:40:10.480 So you're saying that that's were they aware of it, 2:40:10.520 --> 2:40:15.080 because yeah, I mean, hip Hop Array isn't a pop 2:40:15.160 --> 2:40:19.320 song per se. I mean as a Curtis Mayfield breakbeat. 2:40:20.040 --> 2:40:22.119 He's arguing with you kind. 2:40:22.040 --> 2:40:23.760 Of look at Cage's production though, because you always have 2:40:23.840 --> 2:40:26.760 those nice little pretty keyboard lines, piano lines and stuff. 2:40:26.800 --> 2:40:29.480 So I mean, yeah, but so did Tribe and Slum Village. 2:40:29.520 --> 2:40:31.720 But it's just mightn't have hooks. They didn't have hooks. 2:40:31.840 --> 2:40:33.840 That was an arena anthem. And you have to understand, 2:40:33.879 --> 2:40:37.080 at the same time, Tommy Boy was putting out. 2:40:36.840 --> 2:40:39.480 Jack jams about Saya. 2:40:38.800 --> 2:40:40.959 And so we had a relationship with all of the 2:40:41.000 --> 2:40:44.120 arenas in the country and all of their music directors, 2:40:44.160 --> 2:40:46.760 so we could get when we whatever we put on 2:40:46.800 --> 2:40:49.800 that record would be played in all the arenas. And 2:40:49.879 --> 2:40:52.600 so when Hip Hop Array went on that record, it 2:40:52.640 --> 2:40:55.400 got played in all of the arenas. So one of 2:40:55.400 --> 2:40:57.840 the reasons that got big and it's still big now, 2:40:57.920 --> 2:41:00.920 is because a lot of Tommy Boy acts became arena 2:41:00.959 --> 2:41:04.279 anthems because we controlled jock jams. And you know, I think. 2:41:08.920 --> 2:41:11.520 Just discovering that right now, but I mean, I guess 2:41:11.560 --> 2:41:12.160 House of Pain. 2:41:12.080 --> 2:41:14.600 Will fall into that too, because we didn't talk about 2:41:14.640 --> 2:41:15.879 that which that album was the. 2:41:16.120 --> 2:41:17.480 You know, you didn't talk about my favorite, one of 2:41:17.480 --> 2:41:18.720 my favorite hip hop groups of all time. 2:41:19.480 --> 2:41:23.640 Underground. Yeah, one question I had the Tommy Boy was 2:41:23.680 --> 2:41:26.880 it a Tommy Boy Black Black label and Hilver label? Yeah? 2:41:26.959 --> 2:41:27.360 What was? 2:41:27.440 --> 2:41:28.160 What was that era? 2:41:28.280 --> 2:41:30.920 That was for the underground beats we had, We had 2:41:30.920 --> 2:41:33.120 Silver and we had Black and Black was supposed to be, 2:41:33.320 --> 2:41:35.840 you know, for a bunch of twelve inch singles where 2:41:35.840 --> 2:41:38.440 we were prospecting for things but that we're going for 2:41:39.360 --> 2:41:42.240 sort of an underground hip hop audience and trying to 2:41:42.280 --> 2:41:46.240 find something that would be able to launch through DJ 2:41:46.360 --> 2:41:50.200 specialty shows, you know, and college radio. That's what you know. 2:41:50.240 --> 2:41:53.320 That was. That was that attempt. Nothing that actually really 2:41:53.320 --> 2:41:56.040 can't ended up coming through, but we could sign. We 2:41:56.080 --> 2:41:58.360 wanted to increase our bandwids so we could sign more music, 2:41:59.000 --> 2:42:01.039 and so we did it that that way, and Silver 2:42:01.200 --> 2:42:05.280 was disco, dance, orient and more stuff because you know, 2:42:05.320 --> 2:42:08.800 Tommy Boy was always a DJ label, so we you know, 2:42:08.840 --> 2:42:10.680 we while we were putting out all this hip hop, 2:42:10.720 --> 2:42:14.400 we were also putting out EDM electronic music that's not 2:42:14.760 --> 2:42:17.000 necessarily hip hop. We put out eight o eight State, 2:42:17.360 --> 2:42:20.760 you know, Information Society, which you did mention before. But 2:42:20.800 --> 2:42:23.119 then there's a whole bunch of things like we put 2:42:23.160 --> 2:42:28.280 out Cold Cut and and LFO you know so, and 2:42:28.320 --> 2:42:31.000 those were like the first electronica records in America we 2:42:31.080 --> 2:42:33.160 put out. So it's not just in hip hop where 2:42:33.200 --> 2:42:36.040 we pioneered. We pioneered in other genres as well. 2:42:36.240 --> 2:42:39.959 So what made the artists leave Tommy Boy? Because I'm 2:42:40.000 --> 2:42:43.320 looking at all the people you name and like once 2:42:43.400 --> 2:42:46.240 they left Tommy Boy, like that was kind of it 2:42:46.280 --> 2:42:46.680 for them. 2:42:47.480 --> 2:42:50.120 Maybe that was their time. I guess, you know, everybody 2:42:50.160 --> 2:42:53.800 thinks that if they're only on a label that spends 2:42:53.840 --> 2:42:56.880 more money or that's more powerful, they should do better. 2:42:57.480 --> 2:43:02.400 But you did you ever have aspirations to turn Tommy 2:43:02.440 --> 2:43:04.240 Boy into a major? Uh? 2:43:04.760 --> 2:43:05.280 Like I said? 2:43:05.560 --> 2:43:07.240 Or you always had an independent spirit. 2:43:07.600 --> 2:43:10.480 I like to be the innovator more than the you know, 2:43:11.200 --> 2:43:13.640 the competitor. I like to you know, be the first 2:43:13.680 --> 2:43:16.800 one in and try to do something nobody else didn't have. 2:43:16.840 --> 2:43:19.600 People say wow, you know that, that's you know, a 2:43:19.640 --> 2:43:21.520 turning point for me in my life. And people can 2:43:21.560 --> 2:43:23.400 say Planet Rock was that for a lot of people 2:43:23.800 --> 2:43:25.360 day all I was that for a lot of people. 2:43:25.640 --> 2:43:27.080 You know, I'm sure there are a lot of women 2:43:27.080 --> 2:43:30.520 who could say Latifa was that for even though her records, 2:43:30.680 --> 2:43:33.400 you know, never went gold for us. You know, her 2:43:33.520 --> 2:43:38.440 music video gold. The only gold record she had was 2:43:38.480 --> 2:43:48.800 after she left, Like wow, ladies first all they were 2:43:48.879 --> 2:43:51.680 claimed and you know, but you know, part of it 2:43:51.760 --> 2:43:54.320 was females and hip hop. You know, females and hip 2:43:54.320 --> 2:43:56.400 hop never sell as much as males and hip hop. 2:43:57.120 --> 2:43:59.840 That's the whole show. 2:44:01.200 --> 2:44:05.320 And I don't want to keep track. I know what 2:44:05.320 --> 2:44:06.879 could happen, man, I got to get there. 2:44:08.879 --> 2:44:13.000 Well, thank you, Tom, I appreciate your wisdom. Just one 2:44:13.080 --> 2:44:18.320 last question, where do you feel music, dance music, hip 2:44:18.360 --> 2:44:21.600 hop culture, Like do you still feel that it's thriving, 2:44:21.720 --> 2:44:23.440 has some life left as this. 2:44:23.640 --> 2:44:25.000 Which one dance music. 2:44:26.400 --> 2:44:27.119 Just in general? 2:44:27.200 --> 2:44:30.000 Like, well, when track Live is successful, it'll be a 2:44:30.000 --> 2:44:33.879 whole renaissance because if you can unleash all of the 2:44:33.920 --> 2:44:36.680 catalog in the world and let people access it, we're 2:44:36.680 --> 2:44:39.520 going to see a musical renaissance like we never did before. 2:44:39.879 --> 2:44:43.000 And I think if it can happen, well Trump is president, 2:44:43.120 --> 2:44:45.160 so much the better because I think we're going to 2:44:45.240 --> 2:44:47.560 have a lot of great music over the next four 2:44:47.600 --> 2:44:49.520 years in. 2:44:49.640 --> 2:44:52.039 Your mouth to God's yours. Well, thank you very much, 2:44:52.400 --> 2:44:59.160 Tom Silverman, I appreciate it. Man, I'm sorry after he 2:45:00.120 --> 2:45:04.800 up the the the bomb about the sample clearance. Yeah, 2:45:04.800 --> 2:45:07.200 that was I just absolutely lost the script to the 2:45:07.320 --> 2:45:10.720 entire show. I have regrets. I don't have reflections. I 2:45:10.720 --> 2:45:14.080 have regrets because I you know, there there were some 2:45:15.640 --> 2:45:22.080 Digital Underground stories and man, damn, I didn't get to 2:45:22.120 --> 2:45:25.600 ask about AI part one, two and three, and ye 2:45:26.760 --> 2:45:29.720 did we get put three? We never well I wanted 2:45:29.720 --> 2:45:32.879 to know what happened. But we can, you know, have 2:45:32.920 --> 2:45:37.480 Prince Paul, we can have no but Prince Paul was 2:45:37.520 --> 2:45:40.120 also working on part three. He was he was supposed 2:45:40.160 --> 2:45:46.680 to yes the return. So uh, you know, I've learned 2:45:46.959 --> 2:45:51.000 that I have to ask more concise questions on question. 2:45:51.320 --> 2:45:54.599 You know it only took you twenty five episodes. 2:45:59.040 --> 2:46:02.720 Here, you know, yo what it is because this is 2:46:02.720 --> 2:46:06.520 what I learned in this episode. Yeah, yeah, it's okay, 2:46:06.520 --> 2:46:08.280 this is what it is. This is our dynamic, this 2:46:08.320 --> 2:46:11.640 is what this is what we gotta be. Okay, I'm 2:46:11.640 --> 2:46:17.080 the video, you're the pop up bubbles, Like this is 2:46:17.080 --> 2:46:19.080 how we So it's like if we do it for 2:46:19.240 --> 2:46:21.360 moving on, or you can meet a video and I. 2:46:21.360 --> 2:46:22.039 Can be whatever. 2:46:22.240 --> 2:46:24.520 But we have to have just like a continuous track 2:46:24.560 --> 2:46:27.039 where it's just beats, just boom boom boom, boom boom, 2:46:27.120 --> 2:46:30.280 and in those beats it's like hey, pop up, bubble 2:46:30.640 --> 2:46:33.040 for like two minutes and then okay, back to the beat, 2:46:33.320 --> 2:46:33.800 because like. 2:46:33.760 --> 2:46:36.640 We never even get to like I forgot, where do 2:46:36.760 --> 2:46:38.040 we get lost? Where did I lose? 2:46:38.280 --> 2:46:39.400 I think we did good this time. 2:46:39.440 --> 2:46:42.320 I mean, whoa cool, But we didn't get to get 2:46:42.320 --> 2:46:45.160 to like the meat like an audience. 2:46:45.200 --> 2:46:48.000 But the thing is, I don't think I also don't 2:46:48.040 --> 2:46:53.440 think that Tom is full of the stories we really 2:46:53.480 --> 2:46:55.680 wanted to, you know what I mean, like Latin quarter stories. 2:46:56.560 --> 2:46:59.039 There was that time when you know they had a 2:46:59.080 --> 2:46:59.920 machee at my neck. 2:47:00.040 --> 2:47:02.240 Well, I don't think you would have those stories. I think, 2:47:02.320 --> 2:47:05.039 like with people like him, like what we have. I mean, 2:47:05.680 --> 2:47:07.959 three hours sounds like a lot of time, but when 2:47:07.959 --> 2:47:10.640 you're dealing with a motherfucker like that, it's really not. 2:47:11.680 --> 2:47:14.520 Get on Q tips. So give ourselves some credit. Yeah, 2:47:14.560 --> 2:47:16.720 so it's like you kind of gotta I think, just 2:47:16.800 --> 2:47:17.240 have him. 2:47:17.280 --> 2:47:19.680 If we just went just beat the beat to beat hell, 2:47:19.840 --> 2:47:23.200 that's two hours easy, just right there if we just 2:47:23.800 --> 2:47:24.879 want to see with me. 2:47:25.040 --> 2:47:29.879 The first the first hour goes by so slow, and 2:47:30.000 --> 2:47:32.599 usually when it gets to like one hour fifty minutes. 2:47:32.560 --> 2:47:39.240 Yeah, yeah, this is your tweeting right now. 2:47:39.240 --> 2:47:42.080 I can see the tweets coming in. Yeah, listening to 2:47:42.160 --> 2:47:45.199 like a fucking well, First of all, anyone is still 2:47:45.240 --> 2:47:48.680 sticking with the show. They are die hard. Thank you, 2:47:49.000 --> 2:47:53.240 Thank you. The best twelve of y'all. We can only 2:47:53.320 --> 2:47:56.680 build up from there. Thanks mom. I still feel as though, 2:47:56.879 --> 2:48:00.760 you know, there's there's major knowledge that we game from 2:48:00.840 --> 2:48:05.440 the show. But I will admit that once he started 2:48:05.480 --> 2:48:11.360 talking about the idea of sample clearances being a thing again, 2:48:11.520 --> 2:48:14.400 that's amazing. I absolutely just threw the script out the show. 2:48:14.760 --> 2:48:16.120 I knew that was gonna happen to because we were 2:48:16.120 --> 2:48:18.720 actually talking about that before before we started, and. 2:48:20.200 --> 2:48:25.760 I was like, when he's this, the show is over. Well, 2:48:27.080 --> 2:48:30.200 ladies and gentlemen on behalf of I'm sorry, did you 2:48:30.240 --> 2:48:30.640 learn anything. 2:48:33.640 --> 2:48:34.880 I'll just keep it short and simple. I was just 2:48:34.920 --> 2:48:37.400 gonna say I appreciated what he said. He was an innovator, 2:48:37.480 --> 2:48:39.440 not a competitor, you know what I mean? And I 2:48:39.680 --> 2:48:42.240 just not for nothing. That's dope, and it's good to 2:48:42.280 --> 2:48:44.160 know that you can. You know, fear is a powerful thing. 2:48:44.240 --> 2:48:46.000 And the fact that he was like, you know, the 2:48:46.320 --> 2:48:48.160 common threat I kind of run through his career is 2:48:48.200 --> 2:48:50.800 that he's like, I mean, he's essentially a filter. Like 2:48:50.840 --> 2:48:53.400 he's a person that's saying, hey, like with the dance 2:48:53.720 --> 2:48:56.240 the discold mag like this is what you need to 2:48:56.240 --> 2:48:57.800 get on, you know what I'm saying, like kind of 2:48:57.840 --> 2:49:00.320 being just the you know, just kind to be in 2:49:00.320 --> 2:49:02.560 that conduit of like helping people sift through all the 2:49:02.600 --> 2:49:05.160 garbage and saying, Yo, this is what the fuck y'all 2:49:05.200 --> 2:49:07.879 need to be on. And uh, he's a filtering like 2:49:07.879 --> 2:49:10.720 a facilitator. That's what I picked up from his career path. 2:49:10.800 --> 2:49:13.160 Like even with them doing the track lip stuff, that 2:49:13.280 --> 2:49:16.600 is something that I mean, it can make a lot 2:49:16.600 --> 2:49:19.640 of money, but it is also something that again. 2:49:20.000 --> 2:49:22.280 It filters through all the bullshit. 2:49:22.400 --> 2:49:24.800 So if you already know there's no in hell I 2:49:24.800 --> 2:49:27.120 can clear this sample, let me give you a list 2:49:27.160 --> 2:49:29.880 of samples or library samples that you know you can clear. 2:49:30.120 --> 2:49:31.840 I'm just waiting to find out how the major labels 2:49:31.840 --> 2:49:33.640 are going to screw it all up, because they always. 2:49:33.400 --> 2:49:33.959 Forge, always do. 2:49:36.040 --> 2:49:37.800 I'm saying, imagine, it's gotta be some kind of scale, 2:49:37.800 --> 2:49:40.000 because I mean, you can't tell me that like they're 2:49:40.000 --> 2:49:42.760 gonna charge Kanye the same thing is Rihanna Wright, right 2:49:42.840 --> 2:49:44.280 right right, It's gotta be something. 2:49:44.800 --> 2:49:47.160 It'll be a jig. And I think, but I feel 2:49:47.200 --> 2:49:49.440 as though if we just come up with and the 2:49:49.480 --> 2:49:53.800 thing was he was doing percentages, if it's minimum usage, 2:49:53.959 --> 2:49:57.800 because what what I was trying to explain was the 2:49:57.840 --> 2:50:02.480 main loop of transmitting line from Mars is really the 2:50:03.000 --> 2:50:11.240 hay Jude Wilson picket loop. That is just that's the 2:50:11.800 --> 2:50:15.440 one second turtle thing. And so it's like, you know, 2:50:16.760 --> 2:50:19.960 if there is a fair percentage thing going on, then 2:50:20.520 --> 2:50:22.560 you know it's free for all. But you know, now 2:50:22.640 --> 2:50:26.440 you deal with publishers that just say, you know, I 2:50:26.480 --> 2:50:28.360 want seventy five percent in bet and if they use 2:50:28.400 --> 2:50:30.080 the second one, I want seventy five and there's no 2:50:30.200 --> 2:50:34.720 one hundred and fifty percent pie. You know, so it's 2:50:34.760 --> 2:50:41.280 for me that is the best. I mean, even if 2:50:41.320 --> 2:50:45.080 it doesn't come to fruition in my lifetime in a 2:50:45.080 --> 2:50:47.520 way that's like fair and like quote back of the day, 2:50:48.040 --> 2:50:50.600 I mean, just the fact that someone else is thinking 2:50:50.680 --> 2:50:56.240 of it because I spend every waking moment wishing that 2:50:56.280 --> 2:51:00.240 one of these publishing house people would just get on 2:51:00.280 --> 2:51:02.360 they crack dealer ship. Yeah, because I know they're not 2:51:02.440 --> 2:51:06.520 making money. They're just sitting on on publishing and not 2:51:06.600 --> 2:51:10.320 making it work. So you know, let's let's keep keep 2:51:10.480 --> 2:51:12.360 shout out the track. Hopefully they make it work. 2:51:12.840 --> 2:51:15.080 They need to get mad live and Mad live for 2:51:15.120 --> 2:51:18.360 track live, like just that could be. 2:51:18.320 --> 2:51:22.320 A market for the mad Lib DJ Harrison Yes, my 2:51:22.480 --> 2:51:26.480 man shout out to him, Richmond v A. So, but 2:51:26.520 --> 2:51:28.240 I think what he's thinking about that kind of ship, 2:51:28.280 --> 2:51:29.560 that's hot. I thought I needed. 2:51:30.879 --> 2:51:32.600 I thought it was interesting how he looked at the 2:51:32.720 --> 2:51:35.000 artist as a whole. It was about marketing and promos 2:51:35.000 --> 2:51:37.080 and whatever. It wasn't just about whether the music was good. 2:51:37.120 --> 2:51:39.280 The music understand had to be good. And then his 2:51:39.360 --> 2:51:44.640 ability to exploit everything about it was sort. 2:51:44.440 --> 2:51:45.080 Of amazing to me. 2:51:45.160 --> 2:51:47.280 I thought, I just I don't think like that at all, 2:51:47.440 --> 2:51:47.680 you know. 2:51:47.800 --> 2:51:50.760 So, yeah, the way he thought about it as a 2:51:50.879 --> 2:51:53.680 label guy, because that was something that I had argued, 2:51:53.879 --> 2:51:56.920 you know, whereas like back in the day, it's like, okay, well, 2:51:56.920 --> 2:51:58.920 what if we take a smaller percentage up front? To 2:51:58.959 --> 2:52:01.959 a smaller advance to ensure that we can get more 2:52:01.959 --> 2:52:05.640 on along. And like every manager, every attorney they're all 2:52:05.720 --> 2:52:06.080 like they. 2:52:06.000 --> 2:52:07.560 Want to get as much you can up front because 2:52:07.560 --> 2:52:10.480 that may be the only money you see. And it's like, well, well, ship, 2:52:10.720 --> 2:52:13.440 if you take five hundred dollars, that it is gonna 2:52:13.440 --> 2:52:14.680 be the only money you see. You know what I mean? 2:52:14.720 --> 2:52:17.280 But I don't know. It was it was good to 2:52:17.280 --> 2:52:18.440 hear him, hear the. 2:52:18.400 --> 2:52:20.360 Stickers and things like that, Like you see all those 2:52:20.360 --> 2:52:23.160 stickers fucking everywhere, and they were all about it was 2:52:23.200 --> 2:52:25.120 a visual thing as much as an audio thing, which I. 2:52:25.080 --> 2:52:29.400 Thought was very interesting. It's called branding, thank you. 2:52:30.000 --> 2:52:32.080 It's like a fifteen year old word branding. 2:52:32.200 --> 2:52:33.600 Yeah, it's branding. Yeah. 2:52:33.640 --> 2:52:36.360 They were more famous like they were was probably next 2:52:36.400 --> 2:52:39.000 to Death Jam. They were like the only label I 2:52:39.000 --> 2:52:42.280 can remember that I could I would buy based on 2:52:42.680 --> 2:52:46.439 market on Tommy Boy if it was a Tommy Boy record, Like, okay. 2:52:46.320 --> 2:52:48.560 They could be official. That was the Cold Sign exactly. 2:52:48.600 --> 2:52:53.160 This could be official. Uh Any thoughts, Bill, I. 2:52:53.080 --> 2:52:54.840 Mean, I kind of really want to piggyback off of 2:52:55.000 --> 2:52:57.680 what everybody else has said about about tom being a 2:52:57.760 --> 2:53:00.360 label guy. Excuse me, and thinking of the track, think 2:53:00.360 --> 2:53:02.039 in the way that he thought of it. I mean, 2:53:02.080 --> 2:53:04.039 I hate to say it, but it reminds me of 2:53:04.040 --> 2:53:05.840 thoughts that I've had, you know, coming up. I mean 2:53:05.879 --> 2:53:08.200 actually his whole interview, you know, just from the fact 2:53:08.240 --> 2:53:09.840 that he was doing tip sheets and stuff like that 2:53:09.879 --> 2:53:12.520 when he was younger. I mean, I was coming up 2:53:12.560 --> 2:53:14.240 with making up charts of my own when I was 2:53:14.240 --> 2:53:15.520 like ten, twelve, thirteen. 2:53:15.720 --> 2:53:16.640 I meant your own chart. 2:53:16.760 --> 2:53:19.920 Yeah, I was making up charts because no, I was like, 2:53:20.240 --> 2:53:23.240 when Jet Magazine needs to come home, I read, I read, 2:53:23.760 --> 2:53:25.720 I read back to the front. I read Jet magazine 2:53:25.760 --> 2:53:28.360 back to front. I ever read Jet from front to back? 2:53:28.560 --> 2:53:30.760 I don't know, I always read it back to front. 2:53:31.400 --> 2:53:35.840 Did from no, no, no, Did I take the Beauty 2:53:35.879 --> 2:53:37.520 of the week, Beauty in the week in the back? 2:53:38.400 --> 2:53:40.160 She was in the middle. She was in the middle. 2:53:40.160 --> 2:53:42.199 She was like a Beauty of the week. I didn't 2:53:42.240 --> 2:53:44.760 read it past that. He's like it was a society, 2:53:44.800 --> 2:53:46.320 it was the same week. And than the quotes, the 2:53:46.320 --> 2:53:47.280 celebrity quotes that. 2:53:48.080 --> 2:53:51.640 Yeah, but from like doing the tip sheets and and 2:53:51.920 --> 2:53:54.360 just the way that he was, you know, pretty much 2:53:54.360 --> 2:53:56.480 said that he's contrarian and it's always thinking about what's 2:53:56.520 --> 2:53:59.200 missing and what's not there. It reminds me a lot 2:53:59.240 --> 2:54:02.000 of myself paint with and makes me realize that I 2:54:02.160 --> 2:54:06.720 just wasted thirty seven years of my life. 2:54:07.040 --> 2:54:13.320 Gentlemen, I'm paying Bill wasted, Boss Bill Franzigelow. Why are 2:54:13.360 --> 2:54:17.160 you and Sugar Steve any words? Sugar Steve all the people? 2:54:17.560 --> 2:54:27.400 Any words he's supposed to ask me for you, Engineer. 2:54:28.520 --> 2:54:31.600 That's it, Ladies and gentlemen, come back for next week's question, 2:54:31.720 --> 2:54:33.359 Love So Free When I'll. 2:54:33.160 --> 2:54:45.280 Tell you what I learned last week Quest Love Supreme 2:54:45.400 --> 2:54:49.199 is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic episode was produced 2:54:49.200 --> 2:54:56.960 by the team at Door. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, 2:54:57.080 --> 2:55:00.560 visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 2:55:00.600 --> 2:55:01.760 listen to your favorite shows.