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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. Hello, welcome back to the show. My

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Speaker 1: name is Matt and our colleague Noel is on adventures.

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Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 1: superproducer Paul Mission Control decond. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know. Matt, do you remember when

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Speaker 1: TikTok came out. No I had to look it up myself. Now.

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Speaker 1: Of course, our Palnel is I think a little more

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Speaker 1: interested or native to social media than you and I are.

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Speaker 1: But everyone around the world is aware of TikTok. And

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Speaker 1: even if you yourself don't have TikTok on your mobile device,

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Speaker 1: you've heard all sorts of business about this thing. It's

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Speaker 1: a short form video social media platform. In the interest

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Speaker 1: of transparency and full disclosure here on stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. We do have a TikTok account.

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Speaker 1: Talk was started in our name and we make content

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Speaker 1: with some other people that goes on that platform. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're not the wizards of that thing. We are not

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Speaker 1: actively on there as our individual entities, but we've made

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Speaker 1: some stuff and it gets distributed to TikTok. Maybe that's

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Speaker 1: the way to say it, right. It's a platform like

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Speaker 1: any of the other social media platforms, and since twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 1: this particular platform has taken the world by storm. Currently

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Speaker 1: it has been downloaded over two billion times, something like

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Speaker 1: two point six billion times. And of course, you know,

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Speaker 1: whenever something becomes this popular, people start asking questions. As

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Speaker 1: we're talking to a multiple world governments have raised some

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Speaker 1: valid concerns and they have said that TikTok is at

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Speaker 1: the heart of a grand data scraping conspiracy. As we'll

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Speaker 1: find today, some of those allegations have given rise to

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Speaker 1: another set of alleged conspiracies. So what's going on? You know?

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Speaker 1: Is this a short episode Matt Caine, Just solve TikTok conspiracies? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just deleted from your phone. It's that easy. Just turn

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Speaker 1: it off and that's our show. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: tuning in, everybody. Here are the facts. You know. Honestly, man,

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Speaker 1: I think for most people who use anything in the

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Speaker 1: dopamine casino, you're not going to be concerned about the

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Speaker 1: back end of it, what's behind the curtain, right, You

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Speaker 1: just want to do the thing you want to see

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Speaker 1: and be seen. It's surprising that even folks who are

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Speaker 1: TikTok celebrities might not be aware of the genesis of

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Speaker 1: this thing, of its origin, story, where it came from,

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Speaker 1: and how it how it attained the prominence it has today.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, and honestly, nor would you probably care, because

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Speaker 1: in the end, when you're good at TikTok, it can

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Speaker 1: be a pretty serious stream of revenue of perceived happiness,

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Speaker 1: right with those of the dopamine and all the things

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Speaker 1: that it unlocks. I mean, it could be just a

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Speaker 1: great thing for your life if you're just a user

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Speaker 1: and you can do it really well. There's no reason

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Speaker 1: to look behind the curtain because machines working just fine.

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Speaker 1: But there is some weird stuff behind that curtain, pretty

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Speaker 1: weird stuff, it feels. Maybe it starts, let's say, kind

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Speaker 1: of monoculous and starts as an application that's made in

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Speaker 1: China for the Chinese population, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. D

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Speaker 1: o U y n Duyan Douyan's it comes about in

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Speaker 1: September of twenty sixteen and It's made pretty quickly by

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Speaker 1: this Beijing based company called bike Dance bite with a y,

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Speaker 1: get it like a computer byte anyway, Bike Dance originally

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Speaker 1: was a little bit on the nose about what they

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Speaker 1: wanted to do with this app. They called it a

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Speaker 1: dot me right because social media ideas like look at me,

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Speaker 1: and then they rebranded it just a few months later.

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Speaker 1: Within one year of this thing launching, Dullian had one

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Speaker 1: hundred million users, one billion plus videos viewed each day,

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Speaker 1: and that still wasn't enough for the founder of bike Dance.

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Speaker 1: It's got a quote that's quite prescient, I think, and

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Speaker 1: pretty realistic. Yeah, yes, Zang ye Ming, And maybe is

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Speaker 1: how you would say that. Here's the quote. China is

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Speaker 1: home to only one fifth of Internet users globally. If

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Speaker 1: we don't expand on a global scale, we are bound

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Speaker 1: to lose to peers eyeing the four fifths, so going

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Speaker 1: global is a must. I'm not sure what he means

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Speaker 1: the four fifths. I guess the rest of the world

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Speaker 1: Internet users. Yeah, and this guy is. This guy's in

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Speaker 1: charge of a company that's native to mainland China, and

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Speaker 1: as we know, mainland China has a bit of a

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Speaker 1: firewall well, a bit of a firewall. The Great Wall

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Speaker 1: of China now exists online and when TikTok hits the

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Speaker 1: market in September of twenty seventeen, it is built for

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Speaker 1: that four fifths. For the rest of the world that

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Speaker 1: is not mainland China, it immediately takes off. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's short form videos. I think it goes now. I

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Speaker 1: think you can go up to ten minutes something like that,

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Speaker 1: but the vast majority of videos are a little bit shorter.

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Speaker 1: And part of this explosive growth comes due to a

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Speaker 1: merger with another app called musical dot l Y. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember that one? I honestly don't. I remember reading

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Speaker 1: about it, but I also did not engage with it.

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Speaker 1: Musical dot l Y is a Shanghai startup with an

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Speaker 1: office in Santa Monica, California. It was a short form

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Speaker 1: video platform that came about in twenty fourteen, and its

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Speaker 1: big thing was will have people making short lip syncing videos,

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Speaker 1: right or micro comedy sketches, similar to another great honorable

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Speaker 1: mention of social media Vine. Now Vine was awesome. I

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Speaker 1: think it's just a bunch of you know, short form

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Speaker 1: comedy is what I remember it for. And by November

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Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen, or in November twenty seventeen, this company

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Speaker 1: Byte Dance spent more than one billion dollars US to

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Speaker 1: entirely buy this app musical dot l y and they

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Speaker 1: call them musically. Yeah, okay, maybe it's coming back. We're

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Speaker 1: having our momento moment right in twenty eighteen, by Dance

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Speaker 1: merges TikTok and Musically, and they do something pretty interesting.

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Speaker 1: They don't make people get new accounts. If you have

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Speaker 1: an account in the one, you have an account in

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Speaker 1: the other. All of a sudden, you're just together, one

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Speaker 1: big family. And they keep the name TikTok. If you

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Speaker 1: were in China, of course, this doesn't really matter to

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Speaker 1: you because you still have doing it and it's plugging

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Speaker 1: along and everything's fine. You hear about TikTok, and you know,

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Speaker 1: TikTok doesn't make it past the great Wall. No, it doesn't.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk really quickly about snackable content, Ben.

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Speaker 1: That is a phrase that you and I first encountered

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Speaker 1: when our bosses started using it way back in the

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Speaker 1: day when we were owned by Discovery Communications, and that's

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Speaker 1: when things like quizzes online, quizzes that were in print

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Speaker 1: started to become the big thing, the big piece of

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Speaker 1: an article, content that need to be created. There are

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Speaker 1: several other types like that. Quizzes and trivia was huge. Well,

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Speaker 1: there are other things that there are other small little

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Speaker 1: things that were just meant to capture an Internet user's

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Speaker 1: attention as quickly as possible and then serve up as

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Speaker 1: many of them as possible to keep that person's attention

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Speaker 1: and keep them on a website. And it just makes

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Speaker 1: me think about how effective this musically slash TikTok and

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Speaker 1: you know, all of this, the duion, that idea of

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Speaker 1: having quick videos that don't stop, that is such a scary,

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Speaker 1: smart idea and it like, I don't know, it's a

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Speaker 1: feel like a weapon to me for people's it is. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's the weaponization of engagement, right, because all social media

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Speaker 1: has two to three larger aims. Right. The first aim

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Speaker 1: is to elicit a response, right, alike, an angry comment,

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Speaker 1: a share, they all count, right, they all they all

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Speaker 1: teach the platform more about the person responding. The second

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Speaker 1: aim would be participatory in that you become the creator. Right.

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Speaker 1: We have democratized the idea of communication there, and that's

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Speaker 1: that can be a beautiful thing. The third aim, or

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Speaker 1: the third big motive, is to spread information. But the

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Speaker 1: spread of information does not necessarily mean all information spread

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Speaker 1: is good or positive or true. So so, of course,

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Speaker 1: like you said at the top, most people don't care

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Speaker 1: about all this. Why would you? People like TikTok because

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Speaker 1: it gives an editing capability. There are tons of filters,

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Speaker 1: there are tons of trends. And again, in full disclosure,

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Speaker 1: Mattnell and I and our stuff, they don't want you

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Speaker 1: to know. Team have done things explicitly because there's a trend, right,

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Speaker 1: And we had some fun I would say, very human moments.

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Speaker 1: We did little dance parties and so on. That was

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Speaker 1: really cool. I think our choreography, our choreography is entirely

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Speaker 1: due to our pal Christie literally had to walk us

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Speaker 1: through steps. But we enjoyed that. We felt it was innocuous.

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Speaker 1: We were not purposely spreading propaganda or misinformation. We're very

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Speaker 1: aware of the social media thing as a dopamine casino right, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, MySpace, friends,

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Speaker 1: stir how far back do you want to go? These

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Speaker 1: platforms all create some level of celebrity right when they

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Speaker 1: are successful, and they're also at their best capable of

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Speaker 1: spreading impactful, true information and sometimes when everything works out,

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Speaker 1: they give people honest, meaningful connections. We have friends, like

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Speaker 1: actual friends that we have not met in person and

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Speaker 1: may never meet in person, and we know each other

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Speaker 1: entirely through these platforms. Yeah. Absolutely, it goes for any

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Speaker 1: social media platform. Yeah, social media can be good. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right, we're doing maybe a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: setup because we wanted to get the good stuff out

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Speaker 1: of the way. But of course it's not all you know,

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Speaker 1: trumpets and angel fartssichords. A lot of people are concerned

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Speaker 1: that TikTok is a piece of a larger conspiracy, you know,

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Speaker 1: and some of that is due to its origin, and

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Speaker 1: some of that is due to its popularity. TikTok in

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Speaker 1: specific is huge. Just looking at the stats is crazy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: one out of every eight people on the planet uses

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Speaker 1: TikTok because there's over a billion users. That's nuts. It's

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Speaker 1: pretty nuts, right, And maybe you can we can parse

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Speaker 1: that a couple of different ways. We can say some

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Speaker 1: of those people might have extra phones or additional accounts, right,

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Speaker 1: But the best way to think about it is, like

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Speaker 1: you said, Matt, one out of every eight people that's bananas,

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Speaker 1: and TikTok is still a privately held come as we

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Speaker 1: record today, bike Dance still owns it, and it has

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Speaker 1: changed the landscape of social media. That's why if you

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Speaker 1: look on the number two search engine in all of

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Speaker 1: the world, YouTube, you see that YouTube has rolled out,

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Speaker 1: YouTube shorts, Facebook has stories, Instagram has short form reels. Right,

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Speaker 1: they're all they're they're all entering that space of TikTok

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Speaker 1: because they realize that bike Dance was onto something. And

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Speaker 1: during the previous presidential administration, folks in the US, in

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Speaker 1: the world of tech and security began asking some questions,

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Speaker 1: what's happening with this thing? You know? Yeah, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course. I mean with that much popularity, with that

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Speaker 1: form of content, if it's not just TikTok, that form

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Speaker 1: of contents, when we're talking about the infinite scroll of videos,

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Speaker 1: which I have found myself in a deep dark hole

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Speaker 1: sitting on my bed over there scrolling for an hour

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Speaker 1: and I didn't realize I had scrolled through I don't

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Speaker 1: even know how many reels on Instagram. That's terrifying to me,

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Speaker 1: at least as an individual. But then when you think

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Speaker 1: about the ability to if you have a platform where

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Speaker 1: you have the ability to control content in any way,

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Speaker 1: the algorithm, at least of what content gets served to

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Speaker 1: individuals in certain regions. It could be a It could

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Speaker 1: really be a weapon where you could psychologically change the

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Speaker 1: way somebody thinks about stuff, either whether that's political or

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Speaker 1: something based on a country. You know, you could target

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Speaker 1: a country's laws or leaders with propaganda. There is some

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Speaker 1: scary stuff there. So makers in this country started really

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Speaker 1: taking notice of TikTok in particular, and there's some some

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Speaker 1: legislation we're gonna be talking about today. Yeah, like what

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Speaker 1: happens when people in their seventies realize, oh, technology is

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Speaker 1: getting different. I love that you point that out, because

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Speaker 1: we we alluded to this earlier, and I think we've

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Speaker 1: talked about it for a number of years. The people

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Speaker 1: who make laws in the United States in general are

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Speaker 1: very different demographic than the people who obey those laws.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's not necessarily saying these folks were all

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Speaker 1: evil Monty Burns types, you know, like just steepling their

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Speaker 1: fingers and planning to hurt the children. But they are

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Speaker 1: far older than the average person, to the point where

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Speaker 1: that becomes a bit of a problem. You know, and

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Speaker 1: they're asking still valid questions, what's happening to all this

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Speaker 1: data generated by TikTok users, to all this data taken

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Speaker 1: by the platform. And one of their big questions was

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Speaker 1: by Dances a Chinese based company, could by dance be

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Speaker 1: feeding this information to the Chinese government. There was a

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Speaker 1: lot of cenophobia, right si n o phobia meaning prejudice, racist,

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Speaker 1: or otherwise against the Chinese government. And you know, the

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Speaker 1: one point three billion people in China who are innocent,

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Speaker 1: They're not doing anything, they're not wheedling and making plans

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Speaker 1: to overthrow anything. They just want to do their dance

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Speaker 1: videos too. But anyway, as a result, in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: the previous administration in the US, the Trump administration, tried

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Speaker 1: to force bike Dance to sell off its US assets

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Speaker 1: to cut ties and caught a rise, right, and they

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Speaker 1: wanted to ban TikTok from any kind of app store.

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Speaker 1: They wanted it gone, and courts in the US blocked

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Speaker 1: this effort. And then when the next administration came in,

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration, they stepped back those orders, those marching orders,

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Speaker 1: and they said we're going to hear it out though

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Speaker 1: you know what, We're not going to pull the trigger

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Speaker 1: on this yet, but we are going to study this

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Speaker 1: in depth. Let's answer some of these questions. And the

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Speaker 1: biggest questions remained. It wasn't just a question of this

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Speaker 1: company bike Dance or the Chinese government taking data. It

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Speaker 1: was the question you set us up for, Matt, which

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Speaker 1: is a very real concern. Could the Chinese government you

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Speaker 1: a super popular social media platform to push its own agenda,

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Speaker 1: to push propaganda, to launch psychological operations. That's the heart

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Speaker 1: of the debate. Absolutely. The heart here is is that

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Speaker 1: intelligence agencies within the United States and the FCC, well

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Speaker 1: it's specifically the FBI, right and the Federal Communications Commission,

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Speaker 1: the FCC, they have basically put their hands up and

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Speaker 1: said everyone, we would like to make it known Byte

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Speaker 1: Dance could share user data with China. And we're talking

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Speaker 1: about a lot of stuff. We're talking about browsing history, location,

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Speaker 1: biometric identifiers. They could share all of this stuff directly

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Speaker 1: with China's government. I think the question here is, Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: why does that really matter that much if an end

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Speaker 1: users information gets shared with China. I think there's other

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Speaker 1: stuff at play, and we're going to talk about this,

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Speaker 1: but I think there's other stuff at play that the

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Speaker 1: FBI is really con learned about just the info. No,

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. I don't think they're worried necessarily

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Speaker 1: until it becomes politically convenient or advantageous. I don't think

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Speaker 1: Uncle Sam is necessarily worried about maybe an individual US

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Speaker 1: national with a TikTok account posting some hot takes on

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Speaker 1: the wagers and then and you know, getting jammed up

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Speaker 1: at customs in Beijing. I don't think they're watching every

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Speaker 1: falling sparrow in that case. There there's something else at play, right,

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Speaker 1: And to give you China's perspective, folks, the government of

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Speaker 1: China says this is misinformation. And the way they say it,

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Speaker 1: I guess if we want to translate it for the

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Speaker 1: streets of the good folks in the US, China says bulls.

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Speaker 1: And they also have a law in that country that

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Speaker 1: is a pretty recent law and came into play in

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. It requires companies to give the government any

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Speaker 1: personal data that may be deemed relevant to national security.

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Speaker 1: Pretty broad. Wow, it sounds like we need something like

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Speaker 1: that here in the US. A super broad, vague law

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Speaker 1: that says the United States government can take all the

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Speaker 1: data and also you have to give it to them.

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Speaker 1: What could go wrong? Right? Are good friends that Illumination

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Speaker 1: Global Unlimited of course have their eyes and tentacles on this.

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Speaker 1: Right now, we can say there's no evidence that TikTok

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Speaker 1: has turned over data to the Chinese government, but fears abound,

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Speaker 1: not just amid seventy year old lawmakers in the halls

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Speaker 1: of Congress, that this could be happening, and that fear

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Speaker 1: is somewhat hypocritical because as we know, US based social

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Speaker 1: media companies do that at all the Livelong day? Right?

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Speaker 1: Am I being musical? You're definitely being musical when you

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Speaker 1: say all the Livelong day in my end at least?

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Speaker 1: But no, for sure, we Facebook has been not on

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Speaker 1: trial necessarily, but has had to go to congressional hearings

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Speaker 1: over and over and over again about that very thing

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Speaker 1: of course now known as meta. But like they take

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Speaker 1: in a ton of information and people use that platform

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Speaker 1: all over the world too. Yeah, yeah, shout out Cambridge Analytica.

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Speaker 1: So Matt, you you're talking about vague laws, right, We

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Speaker 1: mentioned one vague law in China, you know, with the

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Speaker 1: boogeyman of national security, are you implying that the United

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Speaker 1: States might have something similar not not yet. Oh wait,

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Speaker 1: that's what this episode's about. It's called the restrict Act,

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Speaker 1: and you've likely been hearing a lot about it. People

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Speaker 1: are talking about this thing, Yeah, Restricting the emergence of

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Speaker 1: security Threats that risk Information and Communications Technology Act agrohyms.

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Speaker 1: It turns out this little rascal might be a conspiracy

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Speaker 1: all its own and coming to you, America. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: pause for a word from our sponsor, and we'll tell

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Speaker 1: you exactly what we mean. Here's where it gets crazy. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Supporters of this act love it. They call it a

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Speaker 1: systematic framework for addressing technology based threats to the security

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Speaker 1: and safety of Americans. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, right, Well,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I what I felt when I

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Speaker 1: first encountered it. Ben, you and I were both looking

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Speaker 1: at the Congress star gov website that has the full

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Speaker 1: restrict Act written out there, and it's so weird. You

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Speaker 1: hover over it with your mouse and it's just got

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Speaker 1: a place where you can share each individual line within

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Speaker 1: the Act. But what I'm looking at the level the

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Speaker 1: level of lack of detail in this thing, and just

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Speaker 1: how vagan in general it is. It feels like the

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Speaker 1: thing you always talk about how legislation can never keep

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Speaker 1: up with technology, like it just can't. And when I

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Speaker 1: think about the aging people that are putting this together,

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Speaker 1: of course, working with other organizations that probably wrote this bill.

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Speaker 1: I don't have the exact information of you know what

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Speaker 1: moneyed interests actually wrote this bill, but it feels like

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Speaker 1: an attempt to be vague enough to where they can

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Speaker 1: cover things that are going to come in the next

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Speaker 1: five to ten years, right that they don't know about

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Speaker 1: yet because they know they won't be able to get

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Speaker 1: legislation through. Again, that's similar to this in any kind

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Speaker 1: of timely manner, so they're just like, let's throw a

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Speaker 1: net at this problem that will hopefully save us some

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Speaker 1: trouble in the future. Yeah, it feels a little like

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Speaker 1: the situation where you're talking to you know, a big

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Speaker 1: time producer and they say, Okay, what we're really doing,

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Speaker 1: We're telling a story. Here are some exciting verbs we

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Speaker 1: learned recently, and let's put that in the mix somehow.

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Speaker 1: And there's also I love that you raised this point

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Speaker 1: because there's also tremendous validity in attempting to make something

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Speaker 1: lasting right to set a precedent to acknowledge that humanity

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Speaker 1: collectively does not know what the next social media thing

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Speaker 1: will be. Right, Remember when you and I are old

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Speaker 1: enough in these iterations that we were around before Twitter.

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Speaker 1: And when Twitter came out, I thought, what a dumb idea.

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Speaker 1: Don't people want to Don't people want to practice deep learning?

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Speaker 1: Don't they want to read in depth and understand the

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Speaker 1: nuances of a thing one hundred and eighty characters? Who's

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Speaker 1: going to be into that? And then they got me,

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Speaker 1: They turned me just like that movie The Pod People

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Speaker 1: or whatever. And I have a Twitter account. Now I

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Speaker 1: was wrong. Yeah, who knew microblogging would be the thing?

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Speaker 1: That's what they called it? Yeah, And so so it

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Speaker 1: can be frankly embarrassing to watch national leaders of all

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Speaker 1: imaginable political parties demographics across the planet. It can be

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Speaker 1: embarrassing to watch them seem kind of clueless when they

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Speaker 1: are in hearings about this stuff. There was something you,

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Speaker 1: Noel and I alluded to in a strange news segment

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Speaker 1: where there's this curmudgeonedly congress person who seriously doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: to understand the concept of Wi fi. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I watched that again, Ben, I think that person in

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Speaker 1: question just didn't know the right vocabulary to use in

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Speaker 1: that situation. When you look at his face, it seems

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Speaker 1: like he's asking a question about something he really does

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Speaker 1: think is nefarious, like the way, the way, just the

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Speaker 1: I don't know how to describe Ben, the way his

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Speaker 1: face looks and the way he asks it. So I

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Speaker 1: think he was trying to say, does TikTok access your

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Speaker 1: router and other devices connected to your router? Right? I think,

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Speaker 1: and your your local area network? Does it access other devices?

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Speaker 1: Because at the end he finally gets to so does

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Speaker 1: it access other devices on your network? And and then

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Speaker 1: he gets an answer which is, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: actually sure. I'll get back to you. Uh. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: that's a really good point. But the bite that we get,

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Speaker 1: the bite dance that occurs, is just the so does

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Speaker 1: it connect to your network? He's like, yeah, I got

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Speaker 1: to connect to the network to it's kind to be

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Speaker 1: on your Wi Fi to send any information. No, but

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Speaker 1: does it connect into your network? Yeah? Man, that's how

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Speaker 1: it works. That's what we get. Yeah, And that's that's

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Speaker 1: a great point because we're only seeing the clip that

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Speaker 1: serves the purpose of whatever conversation is meant to be had.

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Speaker 1: This is a this is a hyper fast version of

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Speaker 1: an Overton window. Hey, there you go, and and so

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Speaker 1: expertise aside, it does make sense for any nation to

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Speaker 1: protect itself from possible skull duggery. The United States already

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Speaker 1: does not allow TikTok on government issued mobile devices or

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Speaker 1: devices of any sort. And they're not alone, you know.

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Speaker 1: The US, of course, has a little bit of autonomy

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Speaker 1: for all fifty of its states, and at least twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty seven or thirty state governments already did the same.

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Speaker 1: Several universities here have done the same. Multiple other world

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Speaker 1: governments have banned TikTok from their devices. I think, let's

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Speaker 1: see Canada for sure, Denmark, the Uniting Kingdom, maybe the EU. Overall,

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Speaker 1: this restrict Act is a macro cosmic approach. It's a

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Speaker 1: federal level approach. It would quote comprehensively address the ongoing

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Speaker 1: threat posed by technology from foreign adversaries China, Russia, Iran,

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Speaker 1: all the hits, all the good ones, North Korea as well,

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Speaker 1: Venezuela of course, and and there. If it passes, it

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Speaker 1: allows the Department of Commerce to quote, review, prevent, and

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Speaker 1: mitigate information, communications and technology transactions that don't pass a

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Speaker 1: vibe check. Well, yeah, but they do say threaten national

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Speaker 1: security as like the one thing, or cause harm to

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Speaker 1: any citizens, right, national security. You know, if you want,

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Speaker 1: if you want taxpayers to open up the wallet, all

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Speaker 1: you have to do is talk about national security. This

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Speaker 1: bill right now has bipartisan support, even in a very

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Speaker 1: divided United States. There are two senators leading the charge.

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Speaker 1: One is Mark Warner, a Democrat from Virginia, and one

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Speaker 1: is John Thune, a Republican from South Dakota. Interesting thing,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a lot of scuttle butt

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Speaker 1: about the restrict Act, and it's important to note in

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Speaker 1: the text of the thing, if you actually read it,

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Speaker 1: which we have, you'll see that TikTok is never explicitly named,

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Speaker 1: and that I think that speaks to your earlier point

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Speaker 1: about trying to create a precedent, a lasting thing, right,

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Speaker 1: because in ten years from now people might read that

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Speaker 1: and go, what the heck is TikTok? Yeah? Was that

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Speaker 1: like a bomb or something that was just waiting to

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Speaker 1: go off? Is this about wristwatches? Yeah? Maybe that's it.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's it. No, you're right, I mean that's and

425
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: I do think that's the point. I think that's the

426
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: whole point, because not only can you target TikTok, you

427
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: can target anything that is currently a potential threat to

428
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: whatever politically motivated goals you've got, you know, and it

429
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: can get it can hit anything in the future, as

430
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: long as it's made by a company controlled by a

431
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: country that you see you have ideological differs with. There

432
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: we go. Yeah, nice, you should be in charge of

433
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: more things because uh, the you would you would be

434
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: one of the youngest senators. Also. Uh. What I like

435
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: about that point is that it's also hitting on the

436
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: broad definition of national security, right, which essentially functions as

437
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: an umbrella term all the world round. If you can

438
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: find a way to phrase a problem that you have

439
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: or your organization has in terms of national security, then

440
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: conversations get a lot easier. Right, People are more likely

441
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: to listen to you. This is not dunking on the

442
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: concept entirely. It's just to say, you got some wiggle room,

443
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: kry gus wiggle room. There was and there multiple bill

444
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: This is another thing that's not getting reported as often

445
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: as it should. There are multiple other bills that have

446
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: been proposed and probably will be proposed aiming to do

447
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: the same thing, just like Patriot Act had a bunch

448
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: of earlier also rans right, and there had to be

449
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: the right climate in the American public for people to

450
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: sign a way you know, yeah stuff, well, I mean

451
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: national security. It's like tagging base. Yeah they harbor. Oh

452
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: my gosh, yes, that's what they said. That's what they said.

453
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: It's true, it's true, and people forget that that is

454
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: exactly what happened. There's another earlier bill that would have

455
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: required the president to use something called the International Emergency

456
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: Economic Powers Act LOVE and acronym I uh, I don't

457
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: know if they have that in todation, but I like it. Uh.

458
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: This would have this would have restricted access to the

459
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: app on the part of any US citizen right now.

460
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: Of course, TikTok is still legal in the United States,

461
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: and honestly, man, it sounds kind of un American to

462
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: tell the public what to do with their phones, right, Yeah,

463
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: you can't tell me what I can and can do.

464
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: Oh wait, well, it feels like a string. I don't know,

465
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: if we're on this string of ultra like ultimate awesome freedom.

466
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: We're like moving in that direction while we're also simultaneously

467
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: moving in the direction of the government telling us what

468
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: we can't do with our bodies and our minds. I

469
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: don't know. We're in a weird spot, guys, We're in

470
00:34:54,280 --> 00:35:00,720
Speaker 1: a really weird spot. Yeah you're uh yeah, Oh gosh.

471
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: Just wait until some of the less economic, more cultural

472
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 1: issues get phrased as national security. That's going to be

473
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: a dangerous tag base, Isn't it go into the Caribbean.

474
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna hang out on an island or peninsula somewhere.

475
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: It makes me think of some post Soviet collapse countries

476
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 1: who had ten pot dictators and past laws. I believe

477
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: it was Romania, right, what's his name says how there

478
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: was a law that required families to have children as

479
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: many as possible and taxed them if they did not,

480
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:51,479
Speaker 1: and it was phrased as national security. So these things

481
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: are closer, these disastrous dystopian things are closer than it

482
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: may appear for a lot of people. And right now,

483
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 1: TikTok and Bite Dance, I guess the Chinese government are

484
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: very well aware of this controversy. TikTok has tried to

485
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: sort of calm the waters in Congress, and they've done

486
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: things like routing US data through Oracle Cloud servers that

487
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: are based in the United States. They also said they're

488
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: instituting audits of algorithms, and they're making a they've made

489
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: a new department in the company entirely focused on managing

490
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: US user data. So they're saying, hey, we're firewalling this

491
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: a bit. If the problems, if the suspicions that you

492
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: have are that we are in the pocket of what

493
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: you consider a foreign adversary, then we'll relocate. We'll move

494
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 1: it all to the US and then you five eyes

495
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: can go and have your own party, right. Yeah, and

496
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: five Eyes is like, we want to see everything and

497
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: we want to be the only ones you see it. Right.

498
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 1: We'll see how this all works out. But again, it's

499
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: kind of crazy, right. The US does have its own

500
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: very shady, quite unethical track record with US based social media.

501
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: But the problem for the critics of the restrict Act

502
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: is not all the stuff about China. No, that's only

503
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: a small piece. It goes way. It's to paraphrase our

504
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: pal stick, it's bigger than TikTok. Right, Oh wow, I

505
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: love that. It's been nice work, sir. Reached out to

506
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: him again, just so you know on DMS, trying to

507
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: get him to come on here and talk. You know,

508
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 1: we're supposed to do that fifty celebrating fifty years of

509
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: hip hop. That's right. Yeah, you need to get him

510
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: on to talk about coming up with dead pres and

511
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: like what that was like to exist in the world

512
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,439
Speaker 1: of hip hop within that you know, partnership anyway, Well,

513
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: I hope you reach us back out to us. That

514
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: would be awesome. Okay, So, yes, Ben, you are correct,

515
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: and you I love when you put the spin on that,

516
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: because it is not just TikTok. TikTok is probably the

517
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: current target, or at least it was, you know, it was.

518
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: The restrict Act was built around TikTok. But there's other

519
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: stuff in there too, other things that a ton of

520
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: Americans use, a ton of people globally use, like VPNs,

521
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: and there are a lot of there's a lot of

522
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: other collateral damage that might get hit by this bill.

523
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: So let's uh take a quick break here from a

524
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: sponsor and dive deeper into that stuff. So riddle us, this,

525
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy theorist, if the restrict Act is less about

526
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: protecting Americans and more about controlling them. This is where

527
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: you'll see, yeah, multiple viral tweets, you know, the Court

528
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: of Public Opinion is in session. You'll also see surprise, surprise,

529
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: several viral TikTok videos love it claiming the restrict Act

530
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 1: is overly broad by design. The language of the proposed

531
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: law spends a lot of time being vague. To be

532
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,919
Speaker 1: quite honest with you, it calls it dwells on what

533
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 1: it calls transactions. It gives the Secretary of Commerce these

534
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: sweeping or welly empowers to take action on any transaction

535
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: by information technology or communications companies that are owned or

536
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 1: could be influenced by foreign adversaries. That is nuts, Okay,

537
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: it's twenty twenty three, as we were, a chord. What

538
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: company on the planet is not somehow an information technology

539
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: or communications associated enterprise? Yeah, that could arguably be influenced

540
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: by another country. How do you how do you prove

541
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: any of that? Oh? Y'all, y'all a gain influenced, aren't you? Oh?

542
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: I tell oh the CEO is LinkedIn friends with someone

543
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 1: in Turkey, right, or the CFO went to school in

544
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: a different country like this, It just strings out so easily,

545
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: you know. And also a transaction, literally, any exchange of information.

546
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: It's a little cartoonish. You can see how the author

547
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: of the bill could argue, well, no, we're saying transaction

548
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 1: as in exchange of money. But that's not Come on.

549
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 1: We know the this bill like every other bill on

550
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: the planet, like the Constitution, like all these things, like

551
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: the Bible even it's all about translation. How do you

552
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: how do you translate that? Right? How do you interpret

553
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 1: any exchange of information? And if this bill does become law,

554
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: it does not guarantee that apps owned by foreign based

555
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: companies like TikTok would be banned for all users in

556
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: the United States, But make no mistake, it is a possibility.

557
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: It is a bill that gives the agency to do so. Right,

558
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: it bestows this legislative superpower, and I like this is

559
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 1: something you and I talked about at length earlier. The

560
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: big concern that a lot of people have, myself included

561
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: to be transparent about the restrict Act is that it

562
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: might be used to ban other things. As a matter

563
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: of fact, I would argue that's the precedent the idea

564
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 1: of it banning VPNs right virtual private networks, which we've

565
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: talked about before, encryptic connections over the Internet from a

566
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: device to a network that prevents people from snooping on

567
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: you to a degree ast aastric fine print. Yeah, or

568
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: it can even make it look like you're operating in

569
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 1: a different location. I gotta say, Ben, I got this

570
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: wrong during that Strange News episode. I really thought this

571
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: restrict Act was just talking about banning those VPN services

572
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: that were from other countries, right, But that is not.

573
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: Upon looking into this further for this episode, I realized that, no,

574
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 1: it is at least what people are talking about when

575
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: interpreting this bill. They're just saying the use, the single

576
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 1: use of a VPN to perform a transaction where you

577
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 1: download one of these apps that will eventually be banned, right,

578
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: That itself is the potentially criminal action that an individual

579
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 1: like you could take in the future, at least according

580
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: to this bill. Specifically you folks. Yeah, that's the thing.

581
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 1: It could be used to impose criminal penalties on people

582
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: who are online. Right. And the restrict Act, we shall

583
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 1: also note, does not explicitly mention VPNs the same way

584
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: it doesn't explicitly mention TikTok. But the two senators who

585
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: proposed this bill, who are leading the charge, they both

586
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,280
Speaker 1: name drop TikTok when they were talking about how great

587
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 1: and necessary restrict Act is. Critics are calling it Patriot

588
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: Act two point zero because that is a good snackable headline, right,

589
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: snackable headline. But the question is would it give Uncle

590
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 1: Sam vast powers? Will it allow the government to further

591
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: intrude into the private lives of people? Supporters say, no way,

592
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: you guys are nuts. Gaslighting is a thing that you

593
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: made up because you're crazy. Yeah, oh jeezus. And for

594
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: more on this, we go to Rachel Cohen, who is

595
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 1: who is the center of Warner. Oh, Warner is one

596
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,359
Speaker 1: of the main people putting forward the bill from Virginia. Yeah, yeah,

597
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 1: so Rachel Cohen is his communications director. And this person

598
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: said that the legislation is aimed to quote squarely at

599
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,280
Speaker 1: companies like Kaspersky. We know this one's of the internet

600
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 1: security company. Is how do you say this? Been quo

601
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: hua why h u a w ei and TikTok. That

602
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: creates systemic risk to the United States national security, not

603
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: all individual users. And then she continues the threshold for

604
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: criminal penalty in the bill is incredibly high, too high

605
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: to ever be concerned with the actions of someone who

606
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,479
Speaker 1: is an individual user of TikTok or a VPN, which

607
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 1: I would have to just in minor support of Rachel's

608
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: words there it I can see how the creator of

609
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 1: this bill imagines it that way, but you have to

610
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 1: but they must understand. Again, like I'm trying to give

611
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 1: people benefit of the doubt here, but they must understand,

612
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: including Rachel, when it's that vague, it cannot be considered

613
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 1: just what she said there, just for people who hit

614
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,240
Speaker 1: a certain echelon of you know, power, number of users,

615
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: all that other stuff. Yeah, that's the thing, because the

616
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 1: way that a society like this works and should work

617
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: means that people will come after There aren't supposed to

618
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: be dictators right in this instance, So people will come

619
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: after the original creators and co signers of laws like this,

620
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: and those people may not have the same noble aspirations

621
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: or ambitions or intentions. They may be able to read

622
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 1: something like the restrict Act and say, oh, yeah, what

623
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: is national security? I think it's all these people protesting,

624
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 1: you know, my takeover of the press or something like that,

625
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: which hasn't happened yet. But again, it's closer. It's closer

626
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: than it seems. Right, In general, so opponents disagree with this.

627
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: I want to go to a US policy analyst for

628
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 1: a nonprofit called Access Now. Her name is will Marry

629
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: A Scoto, and she says that just because VPNs aren't

630
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:44,760
Speaker 1: mentioned doesn't mean they're not on the table in the future.

631
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 1: And then we gotta shout out our pals at the

632
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 1: eff the Electronic Frontier Foundation. They said restrict is so

633
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: vague that it can be read as criminalizing common practices

634
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: like using a VPN to get a phibited app, or

635
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: sideloaded installations, or using an app that was lawfully downloaded

636
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,800
Speaker 1: somewhere else. So what they're saying is this law is

637
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: to like Kevin Bacon with it like six degrees of

638
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: Kevin Bacon, you know. I mean it's weird though, right

639
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: because again, first, I guess the fact and fiction of

640
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: it is right now, the United States has never placed

641
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 1: a total ban on a foreign app. Second, like we're

642
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 1: pointing out, you know, once again for the people in

643
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: the back, the language is way too broad. It has

644
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: catch all wording that should make you very uncomfortable. Stuff

645
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: that says they're going to be penalties where any technology

646
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: quote otherwise poses an undoe or unacceptable risk to the

647
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: national security of the United States or the safety of

648
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 1: United States persons. So if any of these three hundred

649
00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 1: thirty plus million people have a problem in any way

650
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: on the Internet and there there is a some kind

651
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: of connection to another country, boom boom boom go time right, yeah,

652
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: oh definitely, Well I would just let's keep going with

653
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: the with what this thing says, just on the broad

654
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: language tip quote, no person may engage in any transaction

655
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,280
Speaker 1: or take any other action with the intent to evade

656
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: the provisions of this act. No person. So it's an

657
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: individual person. Okay, So first proving intent can be a

658
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 1: real bag of badgers. I'm sorry, officer, I didn't know

659
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 1: I couldn't do that, but you see, Dave, I did

660
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 1: though that kind of thing. Like, let's be honest, the

661
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: average person, the average individual user of the Internet has

662
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: no idea about all the back end stuff that goes

663
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 1: on when they're playing the dopamine casino. And that means,

664
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: in theory, you could accidentally commit what we could call

665
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 1: a crime by click right, you suddenly find yourself on

666
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: the wrong side of the law because you, um, what's

667
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: a way, what's an entry point? Oh? Because you downloaded

668
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: a thing that will tell you more about yourself. Right.

669
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: Facebook has the you know, they have like the oh

670
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 1: what type of snare drum are you? And they're like, oh,

671
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: I wonder what type of snare trum I am? I've

672
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: ad this right hashtag? Not sponsored yet, not sponsored yet

673
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: and speaking of yet, we didn't get to the penalties

674
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: this if, if this act passes with the language as

675
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: is one thing that's very specific, the penalties involved for

676
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: violating this law. It is not like getting caught at

677
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 1: a red light checking your cell phone or not having

678
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: your seatbelt on. It's not like um, getting yeah right,

679
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: it's way past that. Oh it's more. It's more than

680
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: one hundred fifty dollars US. Your your serious? What? Yes, yes,

681
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: it is it is more. It is more. Uh, we

682
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: looked into this the civil there. Okay, so think in

683
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: terms of civil and criminal penalties. Right, So turns out

684
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: your not some bond level supervillain on your on your phone,

685
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:40,359
Speaker 1: your civilian. Your civil penalty for violating this act can

686
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: be a fine of up to two hundred and fifty

687
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: thousand dollars US or quote, an amount that is twice

688
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: the value of the transaction. That is the basis of

689
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: the violation, whichever is greater. Wait a minute, are we

690
00:50:55,560 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: sure this isn't supposed to be applied to the entity

691
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: that controls an app or something that. Yes, for sure.

692
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: If this is like an individual penalty, well this would

693
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: be again according to the spokespersons that we mentioned earlier,

694
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 1: this would be applied to companies. Okay. Problem is the

695
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: language is such that yeah, in practice it could. It

696
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: could go down to a person. It just sounds insane.

697
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the penalties you get back in the

698
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 1: day for like torrenting, right, or for taking a CD

699
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 1: and duplicating it and selling that wouldn't download a car,

700
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:42,439
Speaker 1: but it was like twenty five thousand dollars a pop

701
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: or something. I think that's what it used to be

702
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 1: back in the day. Or like how the FBI used

703
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: to have those little warnings that would pop up on videos. Yeah,

704
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: I forget those ads, but they were really great, something

705
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 1: like you wouldn't do this other thing that is nowhere

706
00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: near the equivalent of copying a DVD. Wouldn't download a car,

707
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:07,439
Speaker 1: would you, Yeah? Exactly. You wouldn't steal the moon, which

708
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: is an epic heist. I don't think anyone's done it.

709
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: But okay, what about criminal penalties? But essentially a quarter

710
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: million dollars or in what you say, been an amount

711
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: that is twice the value of the transaction, that is

712
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:23,720
Speaker 1: the basis of the violation. Okay, right, So the idea

713
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: is putting some sting onto the financial consequences. So you

714
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: could get fined two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. But

715
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 1: if you had a transaction that was in violation of

716
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: the restrict Act, and that transaction would say three hundred

717
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: thousand dollars, I guess however you rate it, then you

718
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 1: could be fined six hundred thousand dollars because that would

719
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 1: be twice the value of the transaction. And it's whichever

720
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: amount is greater. But if it's a criminal penalty, up,

721
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 1: but up, do not pass, go, do not collect two

722
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: hundred dollars. You can go to prison for up to

723
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,320
Speaker 1: twenty years, and you can be on the hook for

724
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 1: up to one million dollars us twenty years. That's insane. Yeah,

725
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: that's a prison sentence that is old enough to vote.

726
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: I've getting valons can't vote. Sorry, well, no, keep it

727
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 1: keep it in. It's state by state, it's state by state,

728
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 1: and people who have people who have been convicted of

729
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: felonies and have served their time should also be able

730
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 1: to participate in democracy. Fis bump, fist bump. So this

731
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 1: restrict Act has not become a law just yet, and

732
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 1: it might not make it through Congress. And you know,

733
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 1: the weird thing is about it, there's some validity to

734
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:56,720
Speaker 1: the concerns here, right, Like this is a catbird seat

735
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: for propaganda. Come on, if you were a world power

736
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,839
Speaker 1: and you have an app that everybody loves and they

737
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: give you everything, and you also control the faucet of

738
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 1: what they see, that's amazing. You can you can cut

739
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 1: past all the domestic media right of your adversaries, and

740
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 1: you can you can show the world the way you

741
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 1: want people to see it. That's tremendously powerful. Yes, And oh,

742
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: I just watched a Tucker Carlson clip on this restrict

743
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:35,359
Speaker 1: Act ben oh boy, I found myself agree with him

744
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 1: quite a bit because but it really was it's I

745
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 1: think we talked about before the original uh, the original

746
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: use of was it douyon dyan? Uh what TikTok was

747
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 1: while it was still in mainland China, before it was

748
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 1: you know, shipped over here, and the difference we talked

749
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 1: about this before on the show, the difference in types

750
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 1: of content that get shared on TikTok versus of that

751
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: other original app, and then just what has become popular

752
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 1: in American culture. There's so many types of content you

753
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 1: can find on TikTok, so many you know, rabbit holes

754
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: of information, so much deep information on there. But then

755
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 1: also when you go to just the popular, like the

756
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: generic popular stuff on Twitter, the way you could go

757
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,319
Speaker 1: to like the YouTube front page back in the day

758
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 1: when you weren't signed in, right, so the algorithm isn't

759
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 1: looking at you specifically, it's just going to serve you

760
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,360
Speaker 1: the popular stuff that's on the platform right now. The

761
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 1: stuff on TikTok is really we seems like Americans really

762
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 1: do enjoy some pretty base things, and that's fine, that's

763
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 1: maybe what we're into. It really does feel like it's

764
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: a culture, an American culture, that is being in the

765
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:53,879
Speaker 1: same way on it used to be on television. It's

766
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: just getting kind of spun around in the same way

767
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 1: and churned out through TikTok of what's popular, what's cool

768
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,359
Speaker 1: for young kids to like? M I see what you're saying,

769
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 1: and then it becomes recursive. Right, uh uh yeah, Hey,

770
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 1: here's a picture of here's a picture some twerking. Here's

771
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 1: some animals that you wouldn't imagine hanging out together, but

772
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:22,839
Speaker 1: look at that they're friends. And then right, and then also,

773
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 1: please share the specifications for the latest hypersonic missile, right, like,

774
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: that's the that's yeah, if if you yes, that's I mean,

775
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 1: it sounds it sounds so weird phrase that way. Uh.

776
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: But again, the US is definitely in a glasshouse situation.

777
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 1: It's a glass planet. Congress talks so often about foreign adversaries,

778
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 1: and there are a lot of people in China who

779
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 1: would say, well, why am I? Why am I the adversary?

780
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? I just guys, I just

781
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 1: went to a McDonald's. Pump your brakes, and I'm on

782
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 1: your side. But also the American public sometimes forgets the

783
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 1: adversaries can be domestic as well as for it. Right,

784
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 1: to paraphrase the old urban legend, the data mining is

785
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:22,880
Speaker 1: coming from inside the house, and most people don't care. Right,

786
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 1: why should they? The average person is not some sort

787
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 1: of disinfoagent. The one out of eight people on the

788
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 1: planet using TikTok are not trying to launch revolutions. They're

789
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 1: not trying to stage coups or do asymmetrical information warfare.

790
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 1: They want to be seen, they want to be heard,

791
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 1: they want to be validated, they want to be liked. Right,

792
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: you're right, you're right. Yeah, Well you just kind of

793
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 1: keep in mind the folks writing this bill, and it's

794
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 1: kind of we already talked about it. It isn't even

795
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 1: necessarily the lawmakers that are coming up with this stuff, right,

796
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 1: the people who work for us that we voted for theoretically, um,

797
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 1: it's it's it's often the people who run companies that

798
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 1: are that have goals counter to other major companies. Right,

799
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 1: it's often um intelligence agencies that want to have more power. Right,

800
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: And and something like this is going to pass. Oh yeah,

801
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 1: it is almost certain. Uh it might not be the

802
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: restrict Act, but something like this will be on the way,

803
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 1: and people across the world need to scrutinize this kind

804
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 1: of stuff, dissect it, reassemble it. Even with the best

805
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: of intentions, it will be imperfect because legislation, as much

806
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 1: as it tries, legislation is reacting to technology. It is

807
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 1: not proactive. And whatever this thing is, when it comes

808
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 1: about like the terms of nervous that everyone clicks on,

809
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 1: EG yours, there's gonna be some dangerous fine print that

810
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 1: I I, I got an idea. We were talking about

811
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 1: this soft air. What better way to end the episode

812
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 1: than shout out to someone that we've started calling our

813
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 1: privacy guy or just privacy guy. Oh yeah, our what

814
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 1: are we calling this person? Privacy guy? Privacy guy? Okay

815
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: with us using his name? Yeah, but sure, hmm, maybe

816
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,439
Speaker 1: we'll save it. We'll save it, how about it? Yeah,

817
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:41,640
Speaker 1: this is an extensive amount of information that was sent

818
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 1: to us about specifically VPNs and our comments from the

819
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 1: previous Strange News. So, Ben, what do you say we

820
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 1: keep this talk about it later? Yeah, agreed. We just

821
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 1: wanted to give you a shout out, Privacy Guy and

822
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 1: commend your work with a new version of oil and

823
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 1: great conversation about VPN. So do tune into our upcoming

824
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 1: listener mail. We can't wait to share this story and

825
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 1: we can't wait to hear from you folks. I know

826
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:16,920
Speaker 1: we got we got into the weeds on some legislation

827
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 1: and we talked about a lot of stuff that has

828
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 1: not happened yet but could. And that's the main takeaway

829
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 1: from this. You know, when you are writing a law

830
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: like this, you have to think in terms of what

831
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:35,959
Speaker 1: could happen as a butterfly effect and unintended consequence. Dare

832
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 1: we say an unintended conspiracy? So I know, right, the

833
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 1: best guid So let us know your thoughts. Instagram, Facebook, Twitter,

834
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 1: social media. Oh, hey, TikTok, why not while it's still legal.

835
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 1: Just get it on the TikTok. And if you're by

836
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 1: the way, yes, uh, and on and on YouTube. We

837
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: do some cool stuff on YouTube, you know, that's the

838
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 1: second place we started. I think first it was Apple

839
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 1: Video podcast iTunes video partect' that's what they called it.

840
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 1: Oh forgive me. Yeah. But if you if you don't

841
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:20,919
Speaker 1: sip those social meds, you can always find us via

842
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 1: your telephonic device. Yes, call the number one eight three

843
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 1: three std wy t K. Put it in your phone.

844
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 1: Make sure it's a contact so you know if we

845
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 1: ever call you back. When you do call that number,

846
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: it's a voicemail system. Please leave your name, not your

847
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 1: real one, but a cool nickname, something that gets us

848
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 1: all excited and maybe makes us laugh. Then let us

849
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 1: know if we can use your message on the air.

850
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 1: You have three minutes say whatever you'd like. If you've

851
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 1: got more to say than can fit in that three minutes,

852
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 1: why not instead send us a good old fashioned email.

853
01:01:53,760 --> 01:02:16,680
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff they don't

854
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 1: want you to know. Is a production of iHeartRadio. For

855
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

856
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.