WEBVTT - A Hacker's Redemption (Part 2) 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.080 Hi everyone. This is part two of our story about 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.080 Hector Monsiger. If you haven't listened to part one yet, 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:22.200 go back and listen to it. First. I sat there 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:24.480 paying with your kids, and every day I want to 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:27.400 take it to church. And uh, you know, I started 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:29.960 seeing conn Edison trucks parked out from in front of 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:34.159 my building, people hiding in vans with paperwork peeking at me. 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:37.360 This bad. We don't know what POLVII is doing, but 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:43.000 you know something's not right, but nobody could tell me 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:49.560 specifically what it was. These little girls, I cannot allow 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.240 them to go. Once forced to care, he said, okay, 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:53.840 well you have made these crimes. We have to charge 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:58.280 you with these crmes. Ah, So have you heard that 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:00.320 I was a daughter? I was dead. You know I 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:18.600 was done. So here was Hector, crammed in a small 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.160 room with two FBI Asians in the very early hours 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:27.200 of June. He thought his life was over, but then 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.520 the Asian suggested a deal. They wanted him to keep 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.200 doing what he was doing as if nothing had changed, 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:36.960 but this time with the FBI quietly watching his every 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:40.959 move that would grant the government an unprecedented real time 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:44.720 peek into the hacker group, an anonymous offshoot lull SEC. 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.480 The Asians were after not just Hector, but his fellow 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:52.240 hackers too. That was that anger. That was that you know, 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:56.480 screw the government inside of me and I felt like 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:00.600 I was betraying myself between the coals. But he didn't 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:04.840 have long to make the decision because the girls weren't there. 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.680 I'd be like, listen, you go school yourselves. I'm gonnad 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.560 a lawyer, my attorney. I'm gonna try this out. Hacking 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:14.280 is a tweet amnabum anyway, um, but it's hard to 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:16.320 do them when you have kids around. You know, Do 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.440 I let them pay for my mistakes? Well? Just do 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:23.600 I deal with it myself. In the morning, the FBI 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.720 took Hector to court for his initial appearance. It was 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.280 a rare closed proceeding to keep Hector's arrest a secret. 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:34.200 He was released on bail in the afternoon. He picked 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:39.440 up his young cousins at school. They all cried, including him. 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.320 You know, kids and much more than you think. Uh. 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:45.960 The big one not to mention the name. She basically 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:48.760 she was basically you know, I was skinny. You left 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:51.920 us and he didn't come back home. Oh, I broke 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.200 my heart. It's like I got you. I'm not leaving 0:02:54.240 --> 0:03:01.720 you behind your crazy So over the course of less 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:05.560 than twenty four hours in June two eleven, Hector was arrested, 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:08.720 agreed to cooperate with the government, and got out on bail. 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.600 He was allowed to go back to a sixth floor apartment, 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.799 and he was able to keep the girls right away. 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:18.480 The FBI Asians put him to work. When they arrested him. 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:22.040 They'd seize Hector's laptop, which was so battered it was 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.920 missing a couple of keys. The Asians gave him a 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.000 new computer that was installed with software so they could 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.920 monitor everything he did on it. They also set up 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.600 a surveillance camera in his home so he wouldn't run. 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:39.000 So what did you do for the FBI? Just sat 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.480 there and be said, bo got online. I cursed him 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:43.880 out all day because I was angry at the FBI 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:45.360 for what they were doing too. I mean, I felt 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:48.840 like it was extortion. The agents would tell him, you 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:52.720 gotta play your position, all right, um the lord you 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:55.600 can played his out as similar as it is, this 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:57.880 case is over. You have your kids back, We're gonna 0:03:57.880 --> 0:03:59.160 be out of your lives. You're not gonna bother you 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:05.160 no more So. Hector was off to a reluctant start, 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.480 but prosecutors would later praise him for those nine months 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:11.840 he spent secretly cooperating with the FBI. They would go 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:16.960 on to call his work extraordinary. Some days, Hector would 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.880 sit in a computer room with Asians, explaining the way 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:23.599 he researched ways to break into his targets. Other days 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.120 he'd walk prosecutors through the play by play of his 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:30.160 previous hacks, and then in the afternoon he'd go pick 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.719 up his cousins at school. In the evening, he'd often 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.680 log on to chat and coordinate with the other hackers, who, 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:43.239 of course didn't know that he was cooperating with the FBI. Today, 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.520 Hector is quick to say that he himself never directly 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.839 named anyone and that he never testified against his co 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:53.760 conspirators in court, but the government said that his efforts 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:58.880 contributed directly in the identification, prosecution, and conviction of eight 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:03.080 separate hackers, including a guy called Jeremy Hammond, who at 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:06.960 one point was the FBI's most wanted cyber criminal. Hector 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:10.479 also passed on information about attacks that other hackers were planning. 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:13.719 The FBI estimated that it was able to disrupt or 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:17.480 prevent at least three hundred hacks as a result, including 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:21.520 those against the U. S. Armed Forces, NASA, a television network, 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:25.760 and an electronics conglomerate. All of that required grueling work 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:28.520 that sometimes kept him up all night, and it took 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:32.320 a toll. Hector's aunt was released from prison midway into 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:36.760 Hector's work with FBI, and she remembers just how overwhelmed 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:40.440 he was. The kid will break out with these massive headaches, 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:45.720 to the point where he would cry and lay in 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:47.919 my lap and I would like to have the massage, 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:53.400 just simple massages. Ford put cold rags on his head 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:57.280 and give him Tolennel and saw him. You're always gonna 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.800 be all right. You're gonna get through this. But there 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:03.080 were lighter moments too. All the hard work forged an 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:07.279 unexpected bond between Hector and Chris Tarbell, the FBI agent 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:09.600 who arrested him. He will see me a lot. He 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:11.599 would come to see me. He will drive to see me, 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.480 check me out, make sure it was all right. Chris 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:17.239 declined to sit for a taped interview because he didn't 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.839 want to discuss the details of the FBI's investigation, but 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.520 he was willing to talk about his own views of Hector. 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.000 Chris told me that before the rest, he knew Hector 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:31.160 only by the demeanor he exhibited in his online persona Sabu, 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:34.960 the cold hearted, calculated rogue who made it clear to 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:40.279 everyone online that they should not mess with him. Over time, 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:42.920 Chris came to see Hector in a different light, as 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.479 someone who cares deeply about his family, especially his two 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:50.000 young cousins, as someone who had to make tough moral 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:54.200 decisions to do right by them. Here's Hector again, and 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:56.800 we would eat like fat bastards like it would just eat. 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:58.960 We love to eat. He would bring me like a 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.640 chipo and he would eat something else and we just 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:05.000 sit down and talk and laugh and jog um. He's 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:11.000 a very real guy. Of course, Hector knew they wouldn't 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.200 be eating meals together like this for long. He was 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:25.520 bracing himself for what would come next. There's a major 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:28.160 takedown in the war against computer crime. Authorities in the 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:31.440 United States and Europe just rounded some alleged hackers, and 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:35.920 federal prosecutors said six key members have been arrested. Set 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:39.280 an offshoot of the hacktivist group Anonymous have been arrested 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.600 in the US, Britain, and Ireland charged with hacking and 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:47.160 other crimes. On March six, two twelve, with great fanfare, 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:52.280 US prosecutors announced charges against six hackers, including Hector. As 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.400 part of that Hector's identity as Sabu was released to 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.480 the public for the first time. Prosecutors outlined the twelve 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:02.120 charges that Hector pleaded suilty too, which carried a maximum 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:05.040 penalty of more than a hundred twenty years in prison. 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:09.760 The government also revealed the details of Hector's secret cooperation 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.680 with FBI. It was a huge victory for the bureau, 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:15.800 which at the time still didn't have a lot of 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:20.320 experience solving cyber crimes. Fox News had the story first. 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:25.240 Its article described Hector as a lazy, underachiever, complacent in 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:29.040 his lifestyle, and a welfare recipient, which by the way, 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:32.040 Hector says he wasn't, and The New York Times called 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.280 him a party boy of the projects. The story cited 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:38.840 unidentified neighbors who complained about the noise at night and 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:42.840 the smell of marijuana wafting from his apartment. And then 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.120 there were the chat forms online they lit up with 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.760 all kinds of diet tribes about his betrayal of Anonymous 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:53.080 in his own police fearing neighborhood, Hector and his family 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:57.400 faced threats for cooperating with law enforcement. March five, Everyone 0:08:57.440 --> 0:08:59.199 loves that when it was the best guy in the universe. 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:01.480 More six, I was mad at the cardinal. There was 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:03.600 a traitor. I was sending me to bowl Gravano. I 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:08.160 was I was the worst person to have exists. Reporters 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.920 swarmed his apartment, and Hector and his family faced so 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:14.960 much harassment that the FBI decided to relocate him. The 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:18.040 girls were returned to their mother, Hector's aunt, who was 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:32.439 newly released from prison. A little over two months after 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:35.960 his arrest was publicized, Hector's bail was revoked for posting 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.720 unauthorized material online. He had been keeping a blog in 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:43.880 which he posted short stories which included references to the FBI. 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.640 He was sent to the Metropolitan Correctional Center in Manhattan. 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:52.000 That's the federal jail that once held the gangster John Gotti. 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:55.839 Last year, it took in the Mexican drug lord El Chapo. 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.200 Some publications, including The l A Times, have called it 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.840 the Guantana mode of New York. It was weird fo 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:04.560 all of us because you know, not only he had 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:08.040 he had me right, you had these big time dudes 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:12.880 that were their murderers, just kidnappers and terrorists. And there 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.000 it was the craziest place. But Hector says he gained 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:19.880 a lot from that time he spent in jail. Give 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:23.880 me time to think and spend the time in my 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:27.560 bunky really helped me because again, talking to somebody with 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:30.360 a different perspective helps a lot of trust me. I've 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:32.040 come to realize that the most important thing in my 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:34.000 life right now, at least at that moment, was the kids. 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:38.840 In December, after seven months in custody, Hector was rereleased 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:41.960 on bail. His aunt, his father, his cousin, and his 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.240 friend came to pick him up. Hector scarfed down a 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.960 hot dog, down to soda, and smoked a cigarette. But 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:52.280 as he re acclimated to life outside of jail, he 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:55.559 was stuck in a new kind of purgatory. I came 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:59.280 out had nothing nothing nothing nothing, no money, no help, 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.880 no job. Uh couldn't get on the incident, couldn't talk 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:05.600 to my friends. UM, my family screwed up. They're they're 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:08.480 they're just not working. Hector went on to stay with 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:11.120 an uncle and all the while he wasn't allowed to 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:15.280 touch a computer. His sentencing hearing got delayed seven times. 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:21.199 It was the sickest, craziest year of my life. Two 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:27.080 thowl the embarrassment, regret, the shame. He went through a 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:31.200 big depression phase where I asked him to do therapy, 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:35.880 to get counseling, to try to get home, but he 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:49.000 shows not. I was his therapist, at his counselor his side. 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:56.360 On fourteen, Hector, thirty years old, finally stood before a U. S. 0:11:56.400 --> 0:12:00.240 District judge for sentencing. It was almost three years since 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.480 the day he was arrested, and more than a year 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:06.160 and a half since his arrest became public. I read 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:09.000 the transcript of the hearing and it's really everything you 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:12.600 wouldn't expect from a criminal court proceeding. It was cordial, 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:17.200 non confrontational, overflowing with praise for Hector from all sides. 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:21.600 The room was packed with journalists. Hector's lawyer started off 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.680 by requesting a sentence of time already served for those 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:26.920 seven months he spent in jail when its bail had 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.360 been revoked, which is a dramatically reduced sentence for the 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:33.760 twelve charges he pleaded guilty too. It's even less than 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:37.520 the mandatory minimum. And then the government called Hector's cooperation 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:42.040 quote extraordinary and recommended the same reduced sentence for Hector 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:46.800 of time served. The judge immediately accepted the motion. In 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.760 her parting words, she told Hector he'd done as much 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.560 as any human being could do to make up for 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.640 his past wrongs. She told him that she looks forward 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:59.360 to him deploying his skills for good. I sat in 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.960 the court room and I began to cry. When the 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:09.000 judge saluted him, I salute you. Hector walked out of 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.080 the courtroom that day a freeman, but he would soon 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.640 face one rejection after another as he tried to rebuild 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:30.400 his life. Welcome back. A little over a year since 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:34.080 hector sentencing. In the summer of two thousand fifteen, text 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:37.439 sites were a buzz about a young security researcher named 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:41.480 Benjamin Caudill. He ran a small cyber security firm at Seattle. 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.600 Benjamin had created a device that would help people get 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:48.880 online while masking their physical locations, but then he had 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:52.000 to abruptly cancel the project as soon as it got publicity. 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:56.720 With very little explanation. Curious onlookers had all kinds of 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.840 theories about the projects sudden death. Well, apparently somebody didn't 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:03.040 want Pound whistleblower, Pound and Anonymity to happen, and no 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.200 one knows why. It's probably the SEC got mad at me. 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:08.440 I kind of wondered about that if maybe it wasn't 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:12.360 some sort of gimmick. So I just speaking, I don't know, 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:17.280 nobody knows. That's when Benjamin got a direct message on 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:20.440 Twitter from Hector, like doing this Adam only from a 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:24.760 hole in the wall, But I've been through this nonsense. Um, 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.400 keep your head up, ignore the BS considering good. There's 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.320 free publicity for the company. Just keep your head up, bro, 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.320 and if you need me to send me up. Ironically, 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.080 back when Hector was attacking all these corporations on behalf 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:41.960 of Anonymous, Benjamin was on the other side, helping protect 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.520 companies from hackers like Hector. Benjamin used to work for 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:49.760 the aircraft manufacturer Boeing and remembers discussing with this team 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:52.200 how they would respond if Anonymous were ever to come 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.840 after the company. And now here was one of its 0:14:54.840 --> 0:15:00.320 hackers saying, Hi, here's Benjamin. It was very I'll say 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:06.120 it was very skeptical, very uma suspicious even, But Benjamin 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:10.040 was also curious and responded. After some back and forth, 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.920 they hopped on a call. They ended up talking for 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:17.800 hours discussing all kinds of nerdy cybersecurity things. I wouldn't 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:20.320 have believed it myself had I not experienced it, But 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:25.480 he's actually a very very gentle, very nice kind person, 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.080 and on all of these things kind of took me 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:31.600 by surprise. At the time, Hector was struggling to find 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:35.080 a job. He made some money through bug bounty programs. 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:37.840 These are rewards that companies offered to people who find 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.880 security flaws in their systems, but it wasn't enough to 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.440 pay the bills, and it wasn't enough to build a career. 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:48.160 The rejections piled up and he was devastated. One day, 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.880 Hector mentioned this to Benjamin. Benjamin said, Okay, let me 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.520 reach out to the guys I know. Benjamin would say, Hey, Joe, 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.360 I got this guy that has a lot of exploit 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:03.400 dev experience, has have been doing this for fifty has 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:07.760 all this technical and security experience in in offensive operations, 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:12.240 and it's looking for a role and consistently people would be, 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.440 you know, jumping over the table excited for this, and 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.680 then Benjamin would say, great, his name is Hector. Monster. 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:23.400 It was incredible how how fast they were to do 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.080 not only retract their statement you know, we're not interested 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.800 and just shut down the conversation, but had almost like 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:36.440 blackballed me, almost by extension. This went on for two 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:40.680 to three months. Benjamin City reached out to contexts, but 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.080 not a single one even agreed to have an initial 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:47.320 conversation with Hector. You would admitted yourself, this is a 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:52.360 skill set, a person, a capability you desperately need, and 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.320 you are not even willing to have a discussion about it. 0:16:55.320 --> 0:17:03.000 You're not even willing to get more information. I think 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:05.520 we've all heard stories about how hard it is for 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.240 convicted felons to get a job, but I was still 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.320 surprised to hear of the swift and unanimous rejection that 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.800 Hector got. Yeah, this is a very skilled person in 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:17.639 a in a really hot industry that desperately needs more talent. 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.760 Although I do understand why companies wouldn't want to take 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:24.200 the risk of hiring somebody with Hector's reputation, it made 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:26.760 me wonder if the ban was more specific to Hector, 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.200 who had gained a ton of notoriety as a high 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:33.200 profile anonymous hacker, or if the reluctance to hire convicted 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:37.200 hackers was more widespread. I called up Tom Holt, who's 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:41.359 a professor at Michigan State University. His research focuses on 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.159 computer crimes. Well, the risk would be that you're a 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.840 known criminal quantity, So are you going to do it again? 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:50.040 This is a really important question, and there's actually no 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:53.520 data to predict that risk right now. According to the 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.879 U S Sentencing Commission, federal offenders of drug trafficking have 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:00.320 a particularly high rate of recidivism. It's forty two sent 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.720 Those who commit fraud fo larcnity is three point nine. 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.679 But the research on cyber criminals is so early that, 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:12.080 according to Tom, there aren't even definitive numbers on how 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.960 many of them exist. I asked Tom to name the 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:18.040 people he knew who have made the transition from criminal 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:24.480 to legit. Oh, man, uh, it can't be that many. Um, 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:28.920 I guess you have met Nick. You have um Adrian 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.000 as a I was forget as a Lama or Lamo. 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.200 So there's a couple. But yeah, not not that many. 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:47.560 Watching Hector get rejection after rejection, Benjamin had a thought, 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:51.119 maybe this could be an option. Maybe we we are 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:55.520 the ones to hire Hector. When Benjamin says we, he's 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:59.000 referring to us from Rhino Security Labs, which deploys its 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:02.840 legitimate research jersey to test the security of its clients networks. 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.159 The idea is to have Rhino's good guys try to 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.320 break in and identify the flaws before the bad guys do. 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.960 The company's business was growing and there was room to 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:15.760 expand the team. At an industry dinner party one night, 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.960 Benjamin floated the idea of hiring Hector. Nobody thought it 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.359 was a good idea, but Benjamin got his chance to 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:24.720 try it anyway. In the fall of two thousand fifteen, 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:28.600 a repeat client had come to Rhino with a particularly 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:32.280 difficult job. So, with the permission of that client, Benjamin 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:36.320 asked Hector to join the project as a contractor. Very 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:41.919 first engagement was was just was just incredible. When I 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:45.040 first got that paycheck, you know, man, that made me complete. 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:47.879 I was happy. I thank them so much, said dude, 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:52.120 you are a gentleman of a scholar, you know. Thank 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:58.040 you for giving your word today Hector is the director 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:02.080 of assessment services at Benjamin firm Rhino Security Labs. He 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:05.240 manages a team of five people. Our goal is to 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:09.640 infiltrate the clients by any means necessary and getting as 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:11.720 far as we can, as deep as we can. If 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:14.119 that sounds pretty similar to what he did as a 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.640 criminal hacker, that's because the work actually is really similar, 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.240 except for the fact that this time companies aren't asking 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.639 him to do it, and instead of wreaking havoc with 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:26.040 what they find, Hector and his team right up a 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:29.359 tidy report that they submit to the client. In this 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:33.560 twist that completely surprised me, Hector today is friends with 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:37.520 Chris Tarbell, that FBI agent who arrested him. Chris today 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.360 works for a consulting firm as a cyber security expert, 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:44.639 which makes him and Hector industry appears. Hector says he 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:47.119 looks up to Chris as a mentor, as someone he 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:50.960 goes to for advice. Chris says he sees their relationship 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:54.639 more like a work relationship that's deepen over time. Chris 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:57.640 was kind of like a supervisor while Hector was cooperating 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:01.359 with FBI. Chris has met Hector's cousins, his aunt and 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.280 his father, and also mentioned that they have plans for 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:08.280 Hector to soon meet Chris's own family. Meanwhile, Hector is 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.800 still the only one with a criminal record at Rhino. 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:13.239 Benjamin said there have been three or so candidates who 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:17.119 were inspired by Hector's transition and approached Rhino about potentially 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.560 working there, but Benjamin said he since they weren't completely 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:23.480 committed to letting go of their former life. I ended 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:26.080 up spending more than eight hours with Hector over the 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:28.720 course of two separate days, and this was the point 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:31.480 that he seemed to really want to make that he's 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:34.800 changed over and over again. He told me that he 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:39.240 sees his hacks differently now. So people that their information 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:43.440 was leaked uh to my various hacks, I feel bad 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:45.800 for them because why is their identities being used? Now? 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:49.080 That mean there's my mistake for leaking their info? Why 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:52.199 did I do it? Why was I not thinking a 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:53.480 lot of these things that you want to go back 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:56.480 in top of fix? And it's too late, and I 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:59.159 feel horrible about it. I wish that there was more 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:02.760 I could do. You know, he even regrets the hacks 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:05.359 he did to cheer on the protesters of the Arab Spring. 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:08.360 At the time, it seemed like everything that we were 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.719 doing was completely right and completely justified, and we were 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:14.120 on the right path. You were righteous. Yeah, we got 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.439 a cause. But then you fast forward in time and 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:19.960 you see what happened to Gaddafi is still in a 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:25.480 state of chaos and insecurity. The Arab Spring promised so much, 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:28.320 but the regent seems to be unraveling. From Olibya to 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:33.359 six years on human rights organizations, Egyptians have lost basic liberties. 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:36.360 Unhappy with the brief rule of the Muscle brothers. Did 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:39.639 we help those people? I can't be proud of it 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:42.840 because I think I may have made a situation worse. 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:48.600 If you were to do your life over again, what 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:53.359 would you do differently? That's such a difficult question. I 0:22:53.400 --> 0:22:57.360 have no idea they'll be back in the projects. If 0:22:57.359 --> 0:22:58.879 I don't mess the computers, what would it be in 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:02.440 the streets. And honestly, I would avoid Anonymous if I could. 0:23:03.080 --> 0:23:05.560 Anonymous was a sham and it was a big joke 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:08.200 and I didn't see it. Two was too late. It's 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:11.280 it's a really cheesy cult that it's very easy to 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:13.920 fall into a cult like that because they give your attention, 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:16.199 and they retweet you, and theyre facebook you, and they 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.360 restatus you, and they wouldmonish you and show you all 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:22.600 the love and social media respect that you want until 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:24.439 they don't like you no more, and then you have 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:27.120 ten thousand death threats in your inbox, and then they're 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:29.159 sending you pieces to your house so they're trained to 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:32.800 kill your family. Do you ever feel the temptation to 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:37.840 go back to hacking. I can't afford it. I can't 0:23:37.880 --> 0:23:40.080 afford it because if I lose everything I built, then 0:23:40.119 --> 0:23:45.720 what's what's the point? Do you miss it? No? I'm 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:48.720 actually very bored of it. I'm bored of hacking. I 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:51.120 look at I look at security research as a job, 0:23:52.240 --> 0:23:54.600 and I try to make it as monotone as possible. 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:58.880 I want to maximize results of my clients and uh 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:02.600 be able to finish up my my shift and enjoy 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:06.119 something else like Netflix. Stranger Things Too was great, by 0:24:06.160 --> 0:24:15.080 the way, uh, Castle Gating was nothing. Show actor is 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:18.080 thirty four now, and it's been two decades since he 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:21.240 first got online. There's something familiar about the way his 0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:25.439 relationships with computers has changed. He's exhausted for being on 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:30.040 a computer, like he's not in love with it anymore. 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:35.000 You don't have that same love like when I first 0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:39.600 gave him when his first computer. Being a cyber security researcher, 0:24:40.080 --> 0:24:43.320 he worries a lot about his cousin's going online. It's 0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:46.400 not that he doesn't trust them. They're twelve and fourteen, 0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:49.280 and he says they're really smart, but he doesn't trust 0:24:49.280 --> 0:24:50.879 the rest of the world out there. I hate to 0:24:50.920 --> 0:24:53.040 sound like an old fart, that old man or whatever, 0:24:53.080 --> 0:24:56.200 but if I had the chance, I would probably block 0:24:56.240 --> 0:24:58.920