1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: It's really hard to say you're committed to health as 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: a retailer and sell something that kills half a million 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: people a year. In the year after we got out 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: of tobacco, sales of cigarettes across all retailers went down 6 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: one percent. It's a hundred million fewer packs cigarettes sold. 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: I lost my father to lung cancer when I was seven. 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: I have a seven year old. To this day, I 9 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: always think about how old is my son now. I 10 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: didn't have my father, I'm gonna be here for him. 11 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: So now I think about a hundred million fewer packs 12 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: of cigarettes sold, and how many more fathers and mothers 13 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: will be there for their kids. Hi am Bob Pitman. 14 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to this episode of Math and Magic, Stories from 15 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: the front tiers of marketing. On this podcast, we explore 16 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: the intersection of data and creativity, the spark that changes businesses. Today, 17 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: we have someone who is an expert at creating that spark, 18 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: Norm to Grab the CMO of CVS. He's a first 19 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: generation American, not only a great and innovative marketer, but 20 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: an overall smart guy. NBA with honors from University of 21 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: Chicago Booth School of Business, Compily real Estate Advisors, investment 22 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: manager Mercer And He was president of Boston Detroit Digitas 23 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: before he made the jump to CVS. He combines business, 24 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: marketing and creative skills with success in all the components 25 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: and all together. Norm welcome, Thanks, thanks for having me. 26 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: We're gonna explore it all, but first we want to 27 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: get to do Norm and sixty seconds. Don't think too long. 28 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: Give us your quick answer. Alright, Norm? Do you prefer 29 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: sunrise or sunset? Sunrise? American football or European football, American 30 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: Instagram or Twitter, Instagram, spring or fall? Spring, call or text, text, 31 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: skiing or snowboarding, skiing, chocolate or vanilla chocolate, Cats or dogs, dogs, 32 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 1: Rhode Island or New York. I can get me in 33 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: trouble with New York. It's about to get harder. Smartest 34 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: person you know, Neo de grasse Tyson is the smartest 35 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: person I've met. David Kenny, CEO of Nielsen, would be 36 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: the smartest person I know. First job, Lifeguard, Favorite TV 37 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: show right now, Jack Ryan, All time favorite TV commercial, 38 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: When God Made a Farmer? Favorite city Chicago, Last vacation, Bahamas, 39 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: historical idol it's Obama historical, historical enough, favorite sport, baseball, 40 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: favorite food, Indonesian. What did you want to be when 41 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: you were growing up? An architect, a physicist, business person, 42 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: a doctor, and a none of those you're working at CVS. 43 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: That's getting glows. What's the perfect day look like for you? 44 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: Up early, lots of time to get done the things 45 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: that are important to me, and of the day, time 46 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,239 Speaker 1: with the kids and family. If you could have one superpower, 47 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: what would it be to make wishes come true? All right, 48 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: let's jump into it. One of the biggest transitions in 49 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: American business the shift of CVS from a local drug 50 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: store to a multifaceted healthcare company. You joined about the 51 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: time CBS boldly stepped up to help as their core differentiator, 52 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: and in the process delivered in authenticity that most companies 53 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: could just dream about. CBS stop selling tobacco products in 54 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: two thousand and fourteen, at a loss I understand of 55 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: about two billion dollars in annual revenue. That's got to 56 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: be one of the most daring steps I can think of. 57 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: No matter how right it is, I'm not sure I 58 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: could have ever brought myself to do something like that. 59 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: How did that happen If you go back to the 60 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: history of CVS that started as a drug store, then 61 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: they rolled up drug stores across the country. They got 62 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: to a point in the mid two thousands in which 63 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: it was really a decision of what's the next step. 64 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: Who are we There's not that many more drug stores 65 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: left to be rolled up, and what's our next stage 66 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: of growth. That's when the company really committed to the 67 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: idea of health. When you commit to that idea, you 68 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: very quickly say there's an inconsistency in our commitment, which 69 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,239 Speaker 1: is that we're selling a product that is the number 70 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: one cause of preventable death in America, and so you say, well, 71 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: we shouldn't be in that product. But there's a problem 72 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: when you make two billion dollars a year off that 73 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: product and wall streets pretty unforgiving. The idea had been 74 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: around for a while. The question was when and how so, 75 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: here was the gamble, get out of tobacco, lose two 76 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: billion dollars in the retail side, and by demonstrating our 77 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: commitment to the health of members and employees of other companies, 78 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: we would grow the B two B side of our 79 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: business even more so. We'd sell a fewer ten dollar 80 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: packs of cigarettes and get more ten million dollar contracts 81 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 1: on the bat B side. And it worked. If you 82 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: look at when we got out of tobacco in two 83 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: thousand fourteen, the revenues of CVS were somewhere in the 84 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty billion range. We went from fortune thirteen 85 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: of fortune seven and two years. So what was the 86 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: reaction of employees. Did they get it immediately? Well, this 87 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: gets to a really interesting point about purpose and why 88 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: have a purpose and what is purpose really mean? Because 89 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: we did three things at this time. We got out 90 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: of tobacco. We changed the company's name. At the time 91 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: it was called CVS Care Marks. We changed it to 92 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: CVS Health, which is much more indicative about who we 93 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: are and where we wanted to go. And we codified 94 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: the purpose of the company that why this company exists, 95 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: which is to help people on their path to better health. 96 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: When all three of those things happened in two thousand fourteen, 97 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: we saw the single largest rise in the engagement scores 98 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: of our employees in the history of the company. I 99 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: think that there are two reasons for that. The first 100 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: was getting out of tobacco, really demonstrating taking a acrifice 101 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: to do the right thing, and that just makes all 102 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: of your employees proud. And the second is we moved 103 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: from an idea of a vision, you know, help people 104 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: achieve their best health outcomes, to a purpose which was 105 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: to help people on their path to better health. There's 106 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: a very big difference in this too. The first one 107 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: is really about us and what we want to achieve. 108 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: The second is about what you do for others. It's 109 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: actually quite simple. There's so much nobleness in helping people 110 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: and everyone can relate to it. So everybody in the 111 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: company could relate to the purpose. If you're in a store, 112 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: you know how to do that. If you're a merchant, 113 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: you know how to do that. If you're the CEO, 114 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: you know how to do that. These things all came 115 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: together and they drove incredible engagement in the employee population, 116 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: which I'm convinced had a significant impact on our growth. 117 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: What about Wall Street, There was a lot of worry 118 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,679 Speaker 1: about what Wall Streets reaction would be. In fact, Kramer 119 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: had a piece that said, you've just reduced your cash flow. 120 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: That means your stock is worth less. Interestingly enough, the 121 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: stock went up. It went up immediately. Yeah, So why 122 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: did that happen. The thinking is that everybody can connect 123 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: to tobacco. Everybody has a story of someone in their 124 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: family or a friend who was affected by this thing. 125 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: They can feel it and there's a human truth in it. 126 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: And so when we got out of it and demonstrated 127 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: our commitment not to be in that, they connected that 128 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: and they almost wanted us to succeed. Larry Merla was 129 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: the CEO at the time, and while everybody was on board, 130 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: that must have been a very restless night for him. 131 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: I can only imagine what did Big Tobacco say. It 132 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: was the reaction there, They didn't say much. I mean, 133 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: what can they say. They're on the wrong side of 134 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: a lot of issues, and so they were just quiet 135 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: about it. In your agencies, the agencies, they're generally filled 136 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: with young people who are thrilled for these sorts of moves. 137 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: More recently, we said to our agencies, we won't work 138 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: with any agency that works with big tobacco. To work 139 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: with us, you have to sign a commitment saying you 140 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: won't work for big tobacco because we don't want to 141 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: be part of that, or subsidizing a company that's also 142 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: doing that. They all came along every single one of them. 143 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: This was just the beginning of the ongoing major transformation. 144 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,679 Speaker 1: I really want to dig into it more. But before 145 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: we do that, I want to get back to you, 146 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: and we want to talk a little bit about what 147 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: shaped you. Your parents immigrated from the Netherlands before you 148 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: were born and dued. Why did they come to the US. Well, 149 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: my father's family was escaping the war World War two, 150 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: got the last boat out of Portugal. My father's family 151 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: all went back, but he stayed and made a life here, 152 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: and my mother came on her own. My mother met 153 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: him here. I mean, they came here with no connections whatsoever. 154 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: And it's the American dream. I mean, they just made 155 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: it all happen. It's really incredible. Do you think being 156 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: first generation American, especially with your parents escaping something, had 157 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: an impact on you. When you grow up with parents 158 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: that are not from the US, I think you always, 159 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: to some extent feel like an outsider. You don't have 160 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: the intuition for the norms or the customs, and so 161 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: it makes you quite an observer of people and quite 162 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 1: a listener, honestly, and so that's really helped me succeed 163 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: on my job today. I can observe in meetings what's happening. 164 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: I can observe customers and what they think. I'm curious 165 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: to hear what their perspectives are. That's one piece, maybe 166 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: another pieces. You've gotta make it. You know, the story 167 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: of America. The biggest motivators from many people are fear 168 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: and greed, and I think I probably had both. Where 169 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: did you grow up the Berkshire's We moved to Scotland 170 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 1: for four years, in North Carolina for a few years, 171 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: so we spent some time in the South, and then 172 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,719 Speaker 1: New Jersey went off to boarding school. I know, you 173 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,599 Speaker 1: see these cultural differences between the Dutch and the Americans, 174 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: in spite of the fact that much of early America 175 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: was influenced by the Dutch. What did you consciously feel 176 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: about those two cultures or was the Dutch culture sort 177 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 1: of eradicated. Dutch culture is very tolerant, that's certainly in me. 178 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: It's very pragmatic, that's certainly me. It's very direct, which 179 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: is probably in me as well. I've been told, but 180 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: my parents, in classic Dutch fashion, we're like, we're here 181 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: in America, this is where we are, and we're moving on. 182 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: So as I understand that you graduated high school from 183 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: a Quaker school. I did. The Quakers also have a 184 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: very clear philosophy and culture. Was that an influence on YouTube? 185 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: You know? Actually, my freshman or of high school, I 186 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: went to a military academy. I'm probably the only kid 187 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: in America who wanted to go to a military academy, 188 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: but I did, and my parents were crazy enough to 189 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: let me do it. And I quickly realized that wasn't 190 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: a good idea. I didn't align with who I was. 191 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: So I went from a military academy to the pacifist Quakers. 192 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,079 Speaker 1: That's your choice as well my choice as well. That 193 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 1: had a huge impact on me. It probably fed a 194 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:34,839 Speaker 1: bit of my you can call it liberal side, but 195 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: certainly a side of how do you help others and 196 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 1: how do you feel an obligation to do more in 197 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: the world than just to earn money. You know, the 198 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: Quakers they believe everybody is equal. So as a high 199 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: school student, this is marvelous, right, because you call your 200 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: teachers by their first name, you're totally rebelling and everybody's 201 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: your equal. When you get older than you also realized 202 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: that everybody's equal, that people younger than you are also equal, right, 203 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: and so you have to treat everybody the same way. 204 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: If you think about this concept of outsider. You were 205 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: talking about the outsider, his first generation American outsider in 206 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: terms of being at the Quaker school and everybody's equal. 207 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: Has that continued for you? I mean, do you sort 208 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: of still think of yourself as that outsider conditioned by 209 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: that of your youth? In some ways, it's fueled my 210 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: desire to never be satisfied with where I am, to 211 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: always keep striving, and I don't feel like I've ever 212 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: achieved what I want to achieve. You know, you're the outsider. 213 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 1: Maybe it's an insecurity that moves you along. So you 214 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: chose a military academy, you chose a Quaker school, and 215 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: then you chose Ithaca College. Why what's the continuation there? 216 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: What's the thread? Well, I'd like to give you an 217 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: intellectual story about the truth. This was the first place 218 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 1: I got into and I was I hated doing the 219 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: applications and I was done. You went to Ethca College. 220 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: What was your original career expectation. This is the moment 221 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: where I thought about physics, This is the moment where 222 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: I thought about architecture. My father is a scientist, and 223 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: I grew up with that, and I loved the idea 224 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: of curiosity and understand the world, and to me that 225 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: was what physics was. And I also love the idea 226 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: of design and bring physics and design together, which to 227 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: me was architecture. And then I settled in an economics 228 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: mostly because it was a way of understanding the business world, 229 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 1: the same idea of systems thinking. I think at that 230 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,839 Speaker 1: point I was thinking, how do I have a career 231 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: which will help me get ahead in the world, and 232 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: that seemed like the easiest. Looking at you and your career, 233 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: you were an investment advisor in real estate in Boston. 234 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: He went to a spin off of the main Capital 235 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: Corporate Decisions, and then six years later you entered business school, 236 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: the Booth School of Business at the University of Chicago. 237 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 1: You already had a career. Why did you sort of 238 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: stop the career and say I need to get an 239 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: MBA curiosity? I think the finest world is great for 240 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: many people. I didn't have the passion for it. I 241 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: felt like it was an Excel spreadsheet and I could 242 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: make Excel spreet. It's really well at that time, but 243 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: it all depended on what numbers you put into the cells, 244 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: and I didn't feel equipped to really decide, well, what 245 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: are the assumptions that we're making, And I'm not trying 246 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: to be critical. I looked around them like, I don't 247 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: know that anybody here has really been really trained on 248 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: how to understand that. And so to me, business school 249 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,599 Speaker 1: was a way of starting to think broad or to 250 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: understand the assumptions that you're making about why this thing 251 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: will succeed or not succeed, which is really all the 252 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 1: spreadsheet is doing. The Booth school at the university very 253 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: quant very mathematic, I mean, very serious academics. Did you 254 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: specifically choose that as opposed to the case study schools 255 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: that were much more sort of marketing driven. I did 256 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 1: because it was also the most flexible curriculum. While it 257 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: is known for finance and quant I didn't have to 258 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: take those courses, and I didn't really want to because 259 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: I'd spent so much time doing that. You came out 260 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: of graduate school and you jumped into management consulting at Mercer. 261 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: Why there and what was your dream of going into 262 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: that direction from where you have been? The why I 263 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: did it was because I couldn't choose any other specific industry. 264 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: So it was kind of a way to postpone making 265 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: a decision, and I thought I'd learned something. I did 266 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: that for just about two years. Looking back on it now, 267 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: I highly recommend it for so many people because it 268 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: gives you the audacity to believe that you can solve 269 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: any problem, and a way of communicating in paper and 270 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: in presentation standing up that is valuable for the rest 271 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: of your life. In fact, the skills that I use 272 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: now as a CMO of you know, Fortune five company, 273 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: or at least fifty percent the skills I gained a 274 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: management consulting. David Solomon, who's the CEO of Goldman Sacks, 275 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: was on and he was talking about the skills that 276 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: he values the most he got at Hamilton's College, which 277 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: was learning how to write in public speaking. To the 278 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: point that you've made, which is the power of storytelling. 279 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: You can communicate facts, but if you don't communicate facts 280 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: in a story, you're not half as effective, right And so, 281 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: who did you work on and Mercer, was there anything 282 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: that grabbed your attention? I did something in the trucking 283 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: industry or very that's interesting. In the air compressor industry, 284 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: not so exciting. I did some stuff worth the Internet 285 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: companies as well. That's stuff with direct marketing companies. But 286 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: what happened there was, this is early two thousand's, we 287 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: were helping all these companies have Internet strategies because they 288 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: all wanted to participate in this, and I thought I'd 289 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: like to have an Internet company. I actually left there 290 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: and started a venture got venture backing with a colleague 291 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: there and learned a lot in that experience. Was one 292 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: year from formation to funding, to staffing to selling to 293 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: the bio going bankrupt. What was the company? It was 294 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: called Green's Ebers. It was purchasing solutions in the construction industry. 295 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: Was that after that you joined Digitas? Yeah, and you 296 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: came into Digitas to head up strategy media analytics. How 297 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: big was Digitas then was in the hundreds, let's say 298 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: six hundreds or so. It was kind of mostly Boston, 299 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: New York. Digital advertising was still in its infancy. I 300 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: was at a O Well then and I think the 301 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: whole industry was about four or five billion dollars then. 302 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: Being a Digitas at that time, what do you think 303 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: digital advertising was and what was it going to be? 304 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: Let's just start with what I thought marketing was when 305 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: I was at Corporate Decisions or c d I, the 306 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: whole company was premised on customer driven growth strategies. Identify 307 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: the customers, know what their needs are, and build a 308 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: business that can make money by satisfying those needs better 309 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: than anyone else. And that has forever for my idea 310 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: of what marketing is, it is customer driven growth strategies. 311 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: And so at the time, David Kenny was the CEO, 312 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: and his idea was to bring management, consulting and advertising together, 313 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: to bring that strategic, rigorous thinking with the annuity revenue 314 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: of advertising together. The digital space brought the magic of 315 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: targeting or maybe the math of targeting from direct marketing 316 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: and the magic of creative that was not available in 317 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: any real direct marketing options at that time. And so 318 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: the idea was, if you bring them together, it can 319 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: be even more effective and connect with people in a 320 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: different way and have interconnectivity, interaction and communication, which is 321 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: you know what we've seen happen, and we were also 322 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: driving quantification of results. Originally, this is just the bolt on, 323 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: and then I'll have this agency to do my digital 324 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: What was the big breakthrough that took digital advertising into 325 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: the mainstream. A O L was the first biggest one 326 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: that really drove consumer behavior at scales. So if you 327 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: wanted to reach a certain segment of consumers, you could 328 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: reach them in a significant way and have impact on 329 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: your piano. Google and Search had to be there, and 330 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: then it kind of multiplied from there. You can see 331 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: the car companies with all the Kelly Blue Buck and 332 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: those sorts of sites, and so there's a lot of 333 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 1: money there the companies that were later to the game, 334 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: where the companies that were less direct response oriented. Just 335 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: hold on a second, because we've got so much more 336 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: to talk about. We'll be back after a quick break. 337 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: Welcome back the math and magic. We're here with the grab. 338 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: So by two thousand and fourteen, you've worked your way 339 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: up to being the president of Boston and Detroit for Digitas. 340 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: Sounds like your career was going smashingly. Well, why did 341 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: you leave to be the CMO of CBS. So at 342 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: the time, I was running Boston and Detroit for Digitas, 343 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: and I was running all of publicist for Bank of America, 344 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: and so I started to see all the different possibilities 345 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 1: in marketing and had really enjoyed working with the Bank 346 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,239 Speaker 1: across all that stuff. But the real reason is, if 347 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: you go back to when I had my startup, I 348 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: actually never got that excitement out of my body. I 349 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: liked having the ability to build something. I started looking 350 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: at CVS and I met the people running it. I 351 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: found a company that was actually unlike any other that 352 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: I've seen in my professional services career. Big scale, very 353 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 1: low ego, very humble, never satisfied, always driving ahead. It 354 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: kind of has I'd say the scale of Goliath in 355 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: the heart of David. Tell me a little bit about 356 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: the company. It's interesting a company this size is in 357 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: Rhode Island, not exactly where you expect to find a 358 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: company this size. Is that part of the attitude and 359 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: the culture of the company, Yeah, I'd say that's true. 360 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: I'd say more so, though, the attitude of the company 361 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: comes from pharmacists and pharmacies, and so pharmacistists are very 362 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: caring people, very eye level. If you look across the 363 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: sixty five thousand pharmacies in America, not just CVS, but 364 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: all of them, it's a grand story of humanity. I mean, 365 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: these are just wonderful people in local communities all around 366 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: the country, helping other people. Be a little bit better 367 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: every day in the way. They're just kind of very 368 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: hands on community organizers, and so there's that attitude that 369 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: came into it. And then pharmacies, the retail business, keeps 370 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: you humble. There's such a close connection between your actions 371 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: and the results that there's no in between of pontificating. 372 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 1: I had two uncles who are pharmacists, both owned pharmacies. 373 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: Everybody hung out in those pharmacies that were in the 374 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: same little town in Mississippi, and they were sort of 375 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: across the square. If you go in there, just everybody 376 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 1: was there and hey, how are you catching up? What 377 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 1: is the roots of that? Where did that come from? 378 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: There's two pieces. One is they're just really a part 379 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: of the community, and they're kind of a safe, accessible 380 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: part of the community. Even today, when you go into 381 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: a pharmacy, you don't feel judge, You just feel fine, right, 382 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: it's safe and it's accessible. They second part is there's 383 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: a sense of discovery of new things that could make 384 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: you better, and so people kind of like that idea too. 385 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting there's a large group of high 386 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: school kids that are going into pharmacies like CVS all 387 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: the time because it's in their neighborhood. It's a place 388 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: for discovery and the prices aren't too high, and so 389 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: it's kind of happening still. You know what's happening with 390 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: the older generation. Actually the younger too, but let's just 391 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: talk about the older the epidemic of loneliness. So what 392 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: you see is a lot of older people come into 393 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: the pharmacy every day to speak to the pharmacist. It's 394 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: their human connection. That's an interesting point. So I want 395 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: to jump into the history book kind of transformation of CBS. 396 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: This is one of the more amazing stories I've seen 397 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: as a marketer. Take us back a little bit to 398 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: the beginning to I know, it was a spin out 399 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: in nine became CBS, so I think it was originally 400 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: consumer value store. What was the initial thought of CBS 401 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: and how did it get here? It started as a 402 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: convenience store, a community store of value. You know, you 403 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: see those around today. You see him in the Dollar 404 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: Store in other places. There's different era, different sort of idea, 405 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: but you know that kind of concept. And then pharmacies 406 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: were added because it was a way to pull people 407 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: into the store. Right. In fact, we've changed the logo since. 408 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: But if you look at CVS slash pharmacy, it was 409 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: you know, there's a pharmacy in the building. It wasn't 410 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: one logo was like CVS and a pharmacy are here, 411 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: and in fact, a little interesting piece of history for you, 412 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: it was called Custumer Value Stores. They were like, we 413 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: can save a lot more money if we just call 414 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: it CVS on all those signs, and so that was 415 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 1: literally the decision. I know, before two thousand and ten 416 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: the company had that debate about getting rid of tobacco products. 417 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: When they finally did it, it made a huge statement 418 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: about this is a health brand. Was there this year 419 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: two years of nervousness about this emphatically No, you know, 420 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: wall streets expectations were managed. But what really happened inside 421 00:21:54,320 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: the company was sustained high levels of engaged want to 422 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: deliver on the purpose. It was a meaningful difference in 423 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: the culture. And if you look at what's happened in 424 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: the five years since that, there has been a constant 425 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: stream of other initiatives put out there that deliver on 426 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: the purpose. The stock takes off, employees are engaged, your 427 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: business does well, you make big jumps. Why didn't everybody 428 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: copy you? Why are you standing alone in this? It's 429 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: a good question. So from a business standpoint, why haven't 430 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: they copied us? Nobody else had the same set of 431 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: assets that we had, so they couldn't make money in 432 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: different revenue streams that we made money. And so that 433 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: you know that's a reality. Some of them do need 434 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: to copy us, and you're seeing some of it happen today. 435 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: But I'd say on the tobacco front, it's really hard 436 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: to say you're committed to health as a retailer and 437 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: sell something that kills half a million people a year. 438 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 1: You make this big move, you put the message out, 439 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 1: what do the consumers say? So if you ask consumers, 440 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: there's two things that you see pop up. One is 441 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: ra ra fantastic. The second is don't tell me what 442 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: to do? Are they there's a little more rara? But 443 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 1: I think people they want to make their own choices 444 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: and they don't want somebody say I've chosen for you. 445 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: And I think you'd see that in virtually every sacrificial, 446 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: purpose driven move that affects consumers. But the people who 447 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: were really committed to that idea left others state and 448 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: more of come. I think there was a one percent 449 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: reduction in cigarette smoking in the states in which you 450 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: had stores. So this is a phenomenal thing. This is 451 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: something that makes me really proud. I make a lot 452 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: of people really proud. So in the states in which 453 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: we had a significant presence, in the year after we 454 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: got out of tobacco, sales of cigarettes across all retailers 455 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: in those states went down one percent. It's a hundred 456 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: million fewer packs cigarettes sold. I lost my father to 457 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 1: lung cancer when I was seven. You're a little too 458 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: young at seven to really know all the impacts of that, 459 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: but I have a seven year old time I did. 460 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 1: To this day. I always think about how old is 461 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: my son now. I didn't have my father, I'm going 462 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: to be here for him. So now I think about 463 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 1: a hundred million fewer packs of cigarettes sold, and how 464 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: many more fathers and mothers will be there for their kids. 465 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: Did some of it come from not only you're not 466 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: selling it, but come from you changed the idea of 467 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: smoking in those states, from your advertising and from the 468 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: statement you have made. Do you think people suddenly said, 469 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: you know, if it's that bad, I'm gonna stop. It 470 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: was the shot heard around the world. My brother lives 471 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: in New Zealand. He heard about this, everybody heard about it. 472 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like one of those moments. You know, 473 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: here's the thing about health in America. Small percentage changes 474 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: can have enormous impacts. And so you don't need everybody 475 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: to stop one hundred million fewer packs of cigarettes. You 476 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: did this commitment and this marketing of both product and 477 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: your traditional marketing. It was probably the most the line 478 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: of almost any effort I've seen. The idea of health 479 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: was that something that was being worked simultaneously the product 480 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: side as well as the marketing side. Yes, it was 481 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: first and foremost on the product side and then on 482 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: the marketing side. How do you get out of tobacco 483 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: because we said one day we'll be out this specific day, 484 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: eight thousand stores. How do you get a system of 485 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: people to make sure that eight thousand stores not one 486 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: of them has one pack of cigarettes in on a 487 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: certain day. How It's an amazing feat of operational excellence. 488 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: Everybody knew what to do. There were processes and procedures. 489 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: Everybody had to send pictures back of their store so 490 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: that every store was cataloged as not having them, because 491 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: we were afraid somebody would find a pack and say 492 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: you said you're out and here's a pack of cigarettes. 493 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: And what was the big lesson in that for marketers 494 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: that any marketer listening today could take that, What would 495 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: they do with it? How would they apply it? If 496 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: you're going to demonstrate your purpose, do it in a 497 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: way that people notice. That's an important thing, because otherwise 498 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: it just has no impact. Then I'd say, really, think 499 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: about where your consumers are and what they already know 500 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: is right, and deliver on that and they'll reward you 501 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: for it. You can see dissonance in so many areas. 502 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: It's because consumers have moved on, but the way a 503 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: business makes profit and operates doesn't move that fast, and 504 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: so it creates dissonance. And so if you deliver on 505 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: something for consumers, they will reward you for it. So 506 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: you've moved on. You've got long lived skin. You removed 507 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,199 Speaker 1: any sunscreen with lust n SPF fifteen in your stores 508 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: a few years ago. You began removing beauty products with 509 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: harmful chemicals and additives. You were the first big retailer 510 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: to stop selling products with artificial trans fat. You eliminated 511 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: digitally altered images of models as part of your beauty 512 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: market campaign. Tell us more about that. There's a couple 513 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: of things. They're one is all of these ideas came 514 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: from below, they didn't come from the top. And it 515 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: gets to my point about engagement. Maybe it gets to 516 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: a point about making sure your demonstration or purpose is 517 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: big enough, because it's also got to matter to your employees. 518 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: So what happened was everybody wanted to participate in this idea. 519 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 1: They wanted to participate in our purpose. They wanted to 520 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: show their commitment to it. Those ideas that you just 521 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: mentioned showed up from desperate people across the company. And 522 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: then we're raised up and the people who do this 523 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: own the p and l's for these things too, and 524 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: so they're finding ways that they can deliver on the 525 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: purpose and drive the business. You've got medical clinics, diabetes 526 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: care centers, you keep inventing more and more ways to 527 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: make the health brand. And then of course the Etna 528 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: insurance acquisition of seventy billion dollars. Where do you draw 529 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: the line or do you draw the line? I think 530 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: it's important for people to realize that our stores are 531 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: less than half our revenue. Because when you say CVS, 532 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: people think about the stores. They see, which is great. 533 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: But we do have over a thousand clinics and we 534 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,479 Speaker 1: have a big home and fusion therapy business. We serviced 535 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: a lot of nerve homes with all the pharmacy that 536 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: they need. We have a company called care Mark, which 537 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: is the card you take to the pharmacists and recently 538 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: now of course Etna, and there's a bunch of companies 539 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: in between. And so what you have to do is say, 540 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: what are the pieces that you need to deliver on 541 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: your purpose in a unique way, and that how do 542 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: you assemble those pieces? Our purpose is helping people on 543 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: their path to better health. So what we're trying to 544 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 1: do is create the most consumer centric healthcare company. The 545 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: healthcare system we have today was really orchestrated with hospitals 546 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: and academics and physicians at the core. Consumers revolve around 547 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: all of that. That's been great, there's a lot of expertise, 548 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: we've had major breakthroughs, but the lack of convenience for 549 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: a lot of consumers hurts their engagement. It gets back 550 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: to the same idea of small percentage movements can have 551 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: a huge impact. And so our view is if we 552 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: can build a healthcare company with people at the heart 553 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: of it and really deliver on their need for convenience 554 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: and engage them in new ways in concert of this 555 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: whole system. So not an exclusion of the system. We 556 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: think we can move engagement, improve outcomes, lower costs, which 557 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: is good for everyone. The YETNA piece gave us two things. 558 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: One was data because an insurance company knows the most 559 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: about your health. They see all your claims, and it 560 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: gave us an ability to share in the risk and 561 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: sharing the upside. So if you lower costs and prove outcomes, 562 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: as a pharmacy, you're not going to participate in that, 563 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: but as insurance company you can. You've made all these changes, 564 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: how long does it take for that to begin to 565 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: show up in the perception of the brand with the consumer. 566 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: When I think about consumers, I think mostly they don't 567 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: care about us. They're just living their life, you know, 568 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: and you cannot get too ecocentric about this stuff. And 569 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: so when the perception is going to change for them 570 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: is when there's something meaningfully different for them to do 571 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: or to engage in, or some benefit. The first time 572 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: it happens, they'll say, oh, that was nice. But if 573 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: you put that into the weight at average it hasn't 574 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: done a whole lot. It will have to be multiple 575 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: times before they really believe you. I think if you 576 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: look at brands today, which is a pretty fundamental difference 577 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: from brands in the past, they're built seventy on experience 578 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: and on the story. One without the other is inefficient. 579 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: If you just do the experience but you don't pull 580 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: it together for people, you're really asking them to do 581 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: too much. But if you just do the story, you're 582 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: missing seventy the equation. And so you've really got to 583 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: do something useful for consumers over a consistent period of 584 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: time and help pull the story together for them, and 585 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: then it will change. I think it takes a long 586 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: time years. Let's jump a little bit to culture and you, 587 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: as a manager and a marketer, you talked about this 588 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: mission driven culture at CBS anything that wasn't expected. We 589 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: talked about purpose a lot related to will it help 590 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: you sell more products. The big surprise is how much 591 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: it's helped in recruiting. How much people want to be 592 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: part of that. They want to be part of something 593 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: that is making a difference in the world. They want 594 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: to participate in that at all levels. At all levels, 595 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: you've got is a two hundred employees. Now, how do 596 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: you market your mission internally? I mean, you've got this 597 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: fantastic story now, but as you just talked about marketing, 598 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: they're not going to learn it themselves. Somebody's got to 599 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: help them. How do you do it? It's gotta be 600 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:25,959 Speaker 1: and everything you do. So if you go to our 601 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: website or you do anything to learn about CBS, you 602 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: are going to see the purpose right away, and you're 603 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: going to hear about the actions that we're taking about 604 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: our desire to have a meaningful difference and impact in 605 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: the world. Then when you come in from the first day, 606 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: we've restructured everything. The onboarding is that way. All of 607 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: our executive meanings are that way. You hear about this 608 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: again and again and again, and it comes into the culture, 609 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: and then those people when they're talking to others, they 610 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: use the same words. It is really amazing to me 611 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: in some ways what a brand for a company was 612 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: to consumers in a way a purpose is to employees 613 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: and recruiting. You know, I could go work lots of places, 614 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: but this one feels a little different and a little 615 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: better because it's got that purpose. I could buy lots 616 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: of things but this one feels a little different and 617 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: better because it's got a brand. Do you do an 618 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: internal telecast, podcast, town hall meeting? What are your techniques 619 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: to get it out? Yeah, So the challenge that we 620 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: have is the dispersion of our employees. We have ten 621 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: thousand locations. You know, Disney is an amazing company, but 622 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: they have two locations, and so what they can do 623 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: in two locations is just fundamentally different than what we 624 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: can do. Intend that we have a hundred and fifty 625 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: eight locations than we thought we had a lot, I'm 626 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: suddenly feeling very small, and so you appreciate the problem 627 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: of how do you get everybody to think the same 628 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: way and be on the same page. We've done podcasting 629 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: to all the employee base, We've done video blogs. We 630 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: are changing everything in our store so that seat of 631 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: the standard communications that come down they are quite dry. 632 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: They'll pick up a device at the moment they come in, 633 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: and that device will be preloaded with stuff that's more 634 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: site sound and motion for them to understand what we're 635 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: all about. And then there's the kind of the standard 636 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: big town halls and stuff like that. General Stan McCrystal 637 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: came in to talk to us. At one point he 638 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: ran Jaysak in the Middle East with special forces, but 639 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: he was talking about how they were structured in a 640 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: very hierarchical way, exactly the way you should be to 641 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: win a war traditionally, and they were fighting an army 642 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: that was structured in a very dispersed sort of way, 643 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: and they had to change everything they did. And I 644 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: still remember that because that's exactly what we are. Were 645 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: so dispersed, so you can't really operate in a hierarchical 646 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: way if you want them to change. And this is 647 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: where again you get back to purpose. You have to 648 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: know the why, and they have to know the why, 649 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: and then you have to trust their judgment to make 650 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: the right decisions in each of those locations. So you 651 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: are both a skilled manager and a talented marketing professional. 652 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: What do you do when you're marketing professional views clash 653 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: with the views of your other really talented marketing professionals 654 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: in your organization. I kind of have a belief that 655 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: everybody has a valid point, and so I want to 656 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: understand their points first. It's actually a little bit mercenary, honestly, 657 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: because I want to know if my point can be 658 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: even better. But then it's how do you engage someone 659 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: to bring them along. All companies are just organisms of people. 660 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: If you can't connect with them in a certain way, 661 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 1: you're not going to be as effective. Big transformation. We've 662 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: been talking about what kind of marketer can handle a 663 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: transformation like that? What skill sets do you need to have? 664 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: One is a very high tolerance for ambiguity. And I 665 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: don't just mean, oh what are we about. I mean 666 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: when things change, everyone's roles change, and so all of 667 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: a sudden, roles are overlapping everywhere. If you need real 668 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: clarity on what you own and you want to be 669 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: in control of everything, it's just not gonna work. You 670 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: have to have a really high to ledge for ambiguity. 671 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: You have to really remember what you're trying to solve, 672 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: because you can easily get pushed down rabbit holes. And 673 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: in some ways, I think it's been to the benefit 674 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: of creativity is having goals because it takes all the 675 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: noise out, like we're gonna achieve this goal, whether to 676 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: get a certain amount of sales or a certain amount 677 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: of people engaged in something, and that drives creativity. It 678 00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: keeps everyone focused on that. Let's just focus on that. 679 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: Forget who's in which group or whatever. I have this 680 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 1: idea I call home room and classroom. You could all 681 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 1: be in different home rooms, but we're in this classroom today, 682 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: and so today we're gonna do this thing. Let me 683 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: jump to a big macro issue. You started Digitas, You 684 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,800 Speaker 1: were sort of there when it began as an offshoot. 685 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: Today digital's got more money than TV, but you know, 686 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: TV has been really the bedrocket marketing for as long 687 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: as I've been alive. How are you to just actually, 688 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: I think what's happening. People are realizing that the mediums 689 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: like radio and TV are much more effective than they 690 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: got credit for. In the last few years. The idea 691 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 1: of broad reach is coming back in some ways. I 692 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: think we got distracted by the potential of targeting and 693 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: data and digital, and we tried to make everything like that, 694 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: and we got really smart, but we just weren't reaching 695 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: enough people to have impact or effect. Then there's the 696 00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: emotional connectivity that both radio and TV have that most 697 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: other channels don't have. And so what I actually have 698 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: seen happen in the CMO community is a movement back 699 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,959 Speaker 1: from being enamored so much with digital. The big question 700 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: is how do we reach all of our buyers in 701 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: a frequent enough way, And you need digital to help 702 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: with the reach, but you need to have those channels 703 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: in there to achieve your goals. Have actually been in 704 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: all three of those. And when we came along at 705 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: a well and I had to go pitch somebody, what 706 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: are we we talked about TV is sort of America's hobby, 707 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: radio's America's friend, and digital was what connects it with 708 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 1: that Alignments still going on is to who does what 709 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: and what's the perfect mix because it's not one or 710 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: the other. Yeah, we've generally found that we need the 711 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: full mix to be as effective as possible. And we've 712 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 1: tried it without and digital only. It just doesn't have 713 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: the impact you need to have. What advice would you 714 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 1: give a marketer who's just starting their career. Curiosity, entrepreneurialism. 715 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: Stick with those two things and they will take you 716 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: a long way. Think about the consumer, so of course 717 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: that's important, but you've got to drive growth. Be an entrepreneur. 718 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: Have curiosity constantly to find how you're going to drive growth. 719 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: Find new channels, find new techniques, find new customer sets. 720 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: Just keep going. Let's keep going on the advice. If 721 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: you could give advice to the college senior from where 722 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: you are today, what would the advice be. Creativity is 723 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 1: going to serve you well for the rest of your life, 724 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,359 Speaker 1: and it's generally taught out of you in school. Said 725 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: don't let it happen. You need to be facile in 726 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: the thinking of code so that you can understand the tools. 727 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: Code is the new canvas. And then I'd say be 728 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: kind to yourself. So we wrap up every episode with 729 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: the grades of marketing and we give them a big 730 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: shout out. Who's the greatest math person analytical marketer that 731 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: you know or no of? Amazon has done an amazing 732 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: job from being a publisher and the media business that 733 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: they have built through analytics and the data they have 734 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 1: that is an estounding success. There's a billions of dollar 735 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 1: business for them that wasn't there a few years ago. 736 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: Who's the greatest magician right now? I actually don't know 737 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: the person's name, but remever running marketing at Nike. I 738 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: have to just give them so much credit for the 739 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,320 Speaker 1: moves that they made recently. I did not think that 740 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,880 Speaker 1: they would succeed, and I think that they saw more 741 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: than I saw about their business and they took the 742 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: risks and wow did they headed out of the park. 743 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:35,280 Speaker 1: That was pure connection, Norm a great chat. Thank you, awesome, 744 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: Thanks so much. There are a few things I picked 745 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: up in my conversation with Norm. One, consulting work teaches 746 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,479 Speaker 1: you to think big and communicate effectively, as in Norm's case. 747 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: These skills are invaluable to make it to the top 748 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: of your field. Two changes in just one company can 749 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: have a huge impact overall. The ripple effect of Seas 750 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: dropping cigarettes was a one percent drop in overall tobacco 751 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: sales in their states, So instead of merely sending the 752 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: consumer elsewhere for a purchase, their move led to less 753 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:15,240 Speaker 1: smoking and better health. Three. When your company changes its focus, 754 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,800 Speaker 1: everyone's roles changed to as Norm puts it, having a 755 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: high tolerance for ambiguity will help you and your team 756 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: weather the storm. Thanks for listening. I'm Bob Pittman. That's 757 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,360 Speaker 1: it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to 758 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 1: Math and Magic, a production of I Heart Radio. This 759 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 1: show is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sue 760 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 1: Schillinger for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is 761 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: no small feat. Nikki Eatre for pulling research bill plaques, 762 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 1: and Michael Asar for their recording help, our editor Ryan Murdoch, 763 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: and of course Gayl Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel Mango and 764 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: everyone who helped bring this show to your ears. Until 765 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: next time,