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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: Under the advice of my attorneys, I will invoke my

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Speaker 2: right under the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution to refrain

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Speaker 2: from answering your questions.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Anthony Fauci invoked the Fifth Amendment more than one

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Speaker 3: hundred times and declined to answer dozens of questions from

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Speaker 3: senators in a tense committee hearing about his handling of

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Speaker 3: the COVID nineteen pandemic. The scientist to help lead the

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Speaker 3: nation's COVID nineteen response was subpoenaed to testify under oath

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Speaker 3: by Republican Senator Ran Paul of Kentucky, whose long had

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Speaker 3: an antagonistic relationship with Fauci and his pledged to put

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Speaker 3: him in jail. In his opening statement, Fauci explained why

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Speaker 3: he wouldn't answer the committee's questions.

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Speaker 2: The sole reason he is calling me before this committee

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Speaker 2: is to get me to say something, anything that could

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Speaker 2: vindicate his repeated public pledges that I end up in

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Speaker 2: his words quote behind bars unquote.

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Speaker 3: Fauci has become a polarizing figure, even receiving death threats

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Speaker 3: and the partisan divines that have festered for years about

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Speaker 3: the origins and handling of the pandemic. My guest is

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Speaker 3: Dave Ahrenberg, former Palm Beach County State Attorney. Dave Fauci

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Speaker 3: got a pardon in early twenty twenty five from President

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Speaker 3: Joe Biden. Explain why despite that, he didn't want to testify.

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Speaker 1: So, Anthony Fauci is eighty five years old and he

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Speaker 1: wants to live the rest of his life in peace

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Speaker 1: and in freedom. And he saw what happened to Jim Comi,

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Speaker 1: who made some comments in front of Congress that were

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Speaker 1: not lies, was not perjury, but the Department of Justice

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Speaker 1: prosecuted him. Anyways, he was on Trump's target list. Is

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Speaker 1: there anyone else on Trump's target list higher than Anthony Fauci,

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Speaker 1: Well maybe Jack Smith. And Jack Smith too is being

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Speaker 1: referred to the DOJ for allegedly making a false statement

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Speaker 1: before Congress, even though and I've read the statement, it

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Speaker 1: is in no way a false statement. But this is

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Speaker 1: the new weaponization of the DOJ, and members of Congress

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Speaker 1: are leading the way here, and so it would be

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Speaker 1: a badge of honor for members of Congress to put

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Speaker 1: Fauci scalp on their wall. And so Fauci sees this,

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Speaker 1: and his lawyers said, do not say anything. You're covered

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Speaker 1: by the Fifth because although you were pardoned for crimes

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Speaker 1: in the past, and there were no crimes, but Biden

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Speaker 1: wanted to make sure he wasn't prosecuted. The pardon does

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Speaker 1: not cover perjury at this hearing. And if you speak

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Speaker 1: up and you have a mistaken statement or a wrong

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Speaker 1: train of thought, after all, your eighty five years old,

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Speaker 1: or you don't quite get the one hundred thousand thousand

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Speaker 1: documents that have been dropped, but just before the hearing,

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Speaker 1: you don't specifically match your testimony to what's in the documents,

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Speaker 1: then you could be wearing a pair of handcuffs. Is

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Speaker 1: it worth it? So Fauci decided to take the pr

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Speaker 1: hit to look bad in front of the country and

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Speaker 1: say the Fifth to every question. But at least he

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Speaker 1: takes the pr hit with his freedom intact.

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Speaker 3: Listen to Republican Senator Josh Holly questioning Fauci, what colors

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Speaker 3: of kyle you're wearing.

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Speaker 2: On the Advisive Council? I respectfully declined to and sebbased

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Speaker 2: upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

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Speaker 3: What colors the carpet in front of you.

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Speaker 2: On the Advisive Council, I respectfully decline to and sebased

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Speaker 2: upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

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Speaker 2: Let's just get one thing straight.

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Speaker 1: You don't have any rights under the Fifth Amendment because

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Speaker 1: you've been pardoned.

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Speaker 3: Holly was the Attorney General of Missouri. Shouldn't he know better?

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Speaker 1: Well, Supreme Court, there's a there's a case that says

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Speaker 1: you can't have the selective use of the Fifth Amendment. Like,

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Speaker 1: for example, if you say something and then you try

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Speaker 1: to invoke the Fifth in the same subject matter, then

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Speaker 1: you can't do it. You can't pick and choose on

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Speaker 1: the same subject matter. Now, what does the color of

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Speaker 1: Fauci's tie have with what research in a lab? Well,

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Speaker 1: an aggressive prosecutor could say, all right, you had an

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Speaker 1: interpretation of what color your tie is. That shows your

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Speaker 1: state of mind, and that opens the door to everything

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Speaker 1: else involving your state of mind. You see where they're going.

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Speaker 1: So his lawyers are good lawyers, and they just said no,

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Speaker 1: just take the Fifth on everything.

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Speaker 3: Just talk a little bit about how difficult perjury prosecutions are, well.

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Speaker 1: Really hard. Now it's easier to prove making a false

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Speaker 1: statement to Congress slightly easier. I mean, you still have

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Speaker 1: to prove that you intentionally lied. So even if Fauci

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Speaker 1: was brought up on criminal charges for making a false statement,

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Speaker 1: they would never be able to prosecute him because it

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Speaker 1: would likely be be based on something he says that

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Speaker 1: is an answer to an ambiguous question, like James Comey's answer,

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Speaker 1: or it'd be something taken out of context like Jack

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Speaker 1: Smith's answer, And so they're never going to convict him.

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Speaker 1: But that's not what it's about. There's an old saying,

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Speaker 1: you can beat the rat, but you can't beat the ride,

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Speaker 1: and that's what members of Congress like Rand Paul and

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Speaker 1: Holly what they are trying to do here. They want

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Speaker 1: to have the visual of Anthony Fauci being let out

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Speaker 1: in handcuffs, even though he'll never serve a day behind bars.

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Speaker 3: This testimony was so heated and at one point Rand

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Speaker 3: Paul kicked Fauci's lawyer out of the room.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, I was watching that, and the lawyer was

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Speaker 1: told repeatedly not to speak. And the lawyer is not

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Speaker 1: supposed to speak because it's the individual that speaks. The

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Speaker 1: lawyer's supposed to advise. And so I understand why he

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Speaker 1: was kicked out, but it tells you more that there

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Speaker 1: was a round of applause from the gallery. He shows

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Speaker 1: how political this is. See, the reason why this is

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Speaker 1: happening is that you have the midterms coming up, and

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Speaker 1: the Republican base has been demoralized, and you've got the

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Speaker 1: Iran warts not going well, You've got prices up, you've

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Speaker 1: got Epstein still the ghost of Epstein floating around, and

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Speaker 1: so this is something that still motivates them. It's Anthony Fauci,

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Speaker 1: who they likened to a devil, to someone who is

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Speaker 1: like should be prosecuted, head on a pike. And because

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Speaker 1: of Biden's pardons, that was all shut down. But here's

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Speaker 1: a way for Rand Paul to get his licks in

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Speaker 1: because there's been a battle between the two of them

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Speaker 1: for years, and for the base to get ginned up.

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Speaker 1: And I was on Twitter looking at some of the

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Speaker 1: tweets from Concerns and they love this. They're the ones

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Speaker 1: who are cheering when the lawyer for Fautu was kicked

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Speaker 1: out of the room, and they're the ones cheering the

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Speaker 1: Faucti looks bad as a result of his repeated invocations

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Speaker 1: of the Fifth Amendment.

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Speaker 3: Rand Paul concluded the nearly three hour hearing by saying,

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Speaker 3: the committee is planning a vote next week on whether

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Speaker 3: to hold Fauci in contempt of Congress.

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Speaker 1: And what happens is you have the committee vote, and

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Speaker 1: then it goes to the full Senate, and then it

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Speaker 1: gets referred to the DOJ, and then the DJ can

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Speaker 1: or cannot for ale the charges are seeking indictment, and

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Speaker 1: then ultimately it's up to a judge. But judges are

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Speaker 1: really protective of the Fifth Amendment. If there is the

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Speaker 1: possibility that you could be prosecuted for a crime, you

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Speaker 1: can take the Fifth Amendment. Now, Rampaul saying, you your pardoned,

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Speaker 1: so you have no right against self incrimination. But that's

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Speaker 1: only partially true because that only applies to pass conduct.

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Speaker 1: You can still be prosecuted for perjury, for making a

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Speaker 1: false statement to Congress. You can still be prosecuted for that,

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Speaker 1: even if you were pardoned for everything else. So that's

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Speaker 1: why it again is a visual. It's the visual of

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Speaker 1: the Republicans taking action against someone that the base of

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party hates, despises, So yeah, they'll do the referral. Ultimately,

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Speaker 1: it will never lead to any day in jail for

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Speaker 1: Anthony fauci.

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Speaker 3: Let's turn out to a committee hearing that is supposed

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Speaker 3: to take place tomorrow, a planned vote to move forward

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Speaker 3: with Todd Blanche's nomination for Attorney General.

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Speaker 1: The selling Fund's just not moving forward. There's no modification.

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Speaker 1: It's just never started. No money went from the Treasury

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Speaker 1: to any other account, there's no commissioners.

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Speaker 2: It's not moving forward.

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Speaker 3: At his confirmation hearings, Blanche had testified that the one

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Speaker 3: point eight billion dollar anti Weaponization Fund was dead, but

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Speaker 3: that has not assured Republican Senator John Cornyn. He's raised

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Speaker 3: concerns that the fund could be resurrected without a commitment

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Speaker 3: in writing from the Trump administration that it is dead,

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Speaker 3: especially since President Trump has expressed continued support for the deal.

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Speaker 3: For the nomination to go through the Senate Judiciary Committee,

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Speaker 3: Blanche needs the votes of every Republican Senator Dave During

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Speaker 3: his confirmation hearing, Blanche admitted that the settlement agreement can

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Speaker 3: be resurrected, and Cornyn wants the Justice Department to put

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Speaker 3: it in writing that the Weaponization Fund is dead. He said,

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Speaker 3: they know what they need to do, but they simply

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Speaker 3: refuse to do it well.

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Speaker 1: Todd Blanche in private admitted to Senator Dick Durbin that

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Speaker 1: the one point seven to seven six billion dollar so

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Speaker 1: called anti Weaponization fund was a mistake. But it's one

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Speaker 1: thing to say that in private. It's another thing to

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Speaker 1: say it in public. It's one thing to say in

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Speaker 1: public that you are not moving forward with this slush fund.

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Speaker 1: It's another thing to put in writing. It's one thing

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Speaker 1: to say that you're not going to create this fund,

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Speaker 1: but it's another thing to also leave open the possibility

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Speaker 1: of giving financial settlements to claims made by January six ers,

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Speaker 1: and he has refused to shut that door, and that's

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Speaker 1: a problem, just like how the DOJ had has given

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Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars to the state of Alaska

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Speaker 1: to settle lawsuits there and that helps Lisa Murkowski. Well,

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Speaker 1: he can do the same thing to please Trump. For

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Speaker 1: the January six ers, there have been a lot of

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Speaker 1: claims filed and it's up to him how to settle that. Remember,

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Speaker 1: he's given already a lot of my General Flynn, they

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Speaker 1: can pay off people who they like and stop payments

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Speaker 1: to people they don't, so they have that power, and

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Speaker 1: that's something that I would like to see Todd Blanche

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Speaker 1: go further and say, not only will I put in

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Speaker 1: writing that we are not doing this slush fund, but

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Speaker 1: we are also putting in writing that we are not

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Speaker 1: going to reimburse anyone who makes a claim being part

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Speaker 1: of the January sixth insurrection. He will not do that,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's a problem.

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Speaker 3: They can still give January six people money through regular

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Speaker 3: process and they don't need this slush fund.

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Speaker 1: That's right, No, that's it. But remember Trump wanted the

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Speaker 1: slush one because it was a way to signal that

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Speaker 1: he supports people who supported him. That's why I was

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Speaker 1: created as one point seventy seven six billion dollars at

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Speaker 1: seventeen seventy six. Also, it was a substitute for the

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Speaker 1: settlement that they originally wanted, which was to give Trump

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Speaker 1: the money. This was to settle Trump's claims against the IRS.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting because Trump has a legitimate claim against ars.

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Speaker 1: They did leak his information. They also leaked Ken Griffin's

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Speaker 1: information and others, but Ken Griffin others accepted an apology

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Speaker 1: and no financial settlement. But Trump wanted the money, and

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Speaker 1: when that looked bad because with self dealing, they settled

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Speaker 1: on this slush fund for their January sixth and other supporters,

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Speaker 1: but that too looks so bad. So what they could

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Speaker 1: still do, though, is settle lawsuits. And that's where Todd

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Speaker 1: Blanche has not committed. One way or another.

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Speaker 3: This is Bloomberg. Social media influencers Andrew and Tristan Tate

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Speaker 3: are accused of rape and sex trafficking in the United Kingdom.

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Speaker 3: They've become among the world's most polarizing Internet personalities with

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Speaker 3: their promotion of wealth, male dominance, and massiley through their

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Speaker 3: social media empire. The new allegations are the latest in

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Speaker 3: a long running international legal scandal involving the Tates that

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Speaker 3: has spanned the US, Britain and Romania. Their attorney, Joseph McBride,

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Speaker 3: has slammed the new criminal charges unveiled against them.

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Speaker 2: We think these charges are selationists and defamatory charges. Andrew

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Speaker 2: and Tristan Tate have been accused of the most heinous

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Speaker 2: acts that two men could be accused of.

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Speaker 3: The Tates say they're innocent of the charges and they'll

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Speaker 3: fight their extradition to the UK. They'll remain in jail

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Speaker 3: in Miami until at least and August thirteenth detention hearing,

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Speaker 3: where a judge will determine whether they'll be released on

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Speaker 3: bail as the extradition process plays out. I've been talking

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Speaker 3: to former Palm Beach County State Attorney Dave Ehrenberg. Dave, so,

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Speaker 3: right now, the Tates are fighting extradition, right.

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Speaker 1: So you have the Tate brothers that are detained and

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Speaker 1: waiting extradition and they're in solitary confinement. They're in solitary

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Speaker 1: confinement not because they're being punished, but because they're high

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Speaker 1: profile figures because of their own outrageous words that have

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Speaker 1: made him into targets. And they're going to fight it,

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Speaker 1: but it could take one to two years to fight it. Ultimately, though,

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Speaker 1: it goes to the courts, and it's a low burden

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Speaker 1: for the government to extradize people because you have a

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Speaker 1: legitimate charge from Great Britain, from the UK where it's

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Speaker 1: serious felonies that's number one. Are they serious crimes yes,

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Speaker 1: and has a probable cause yes, unless they want to

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Speaker 1: say that it's mistaken identity, which is not the case.

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Speaker 1: So they're going to lose in the courts. What they're

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Speaker 1: trying is to get the Trump administration to block it,

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Speaker 1: and after it goes to the courts, then it's up

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Speaker 1: to the Secretary of State Marco Rubio to sign off

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Speaker 1: on it, and by all on occasions he will. Why

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Speaker 1: is he going to die in a hill for the

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Speaker 1: Tape Brothers. I know Marco Rubio, he's a religious guy.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure he finds the Tape Brothers conduct discussing and repulsive.

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Speaker 3: Rubio told report was he was in Manila on July

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Speaker 3: twenty second, that he didn't expect to intervene in the

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Speaker 3: case for now. There's no role for us to play

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Speaker 3: at this moment or maybe ever. But there is a role.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, he has to sign off on it. They

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Speaker 1: can't get extradited unless the Secretary of State signs off

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Speaker 1: on it. But it's pretty rote. I think there's only

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Speaker 1: been one example since the treaty between the US and

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Speaker 1: UK has been signed on extraditions, only one example of

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Speaker 1: someone who has not been extradited over to the UK,

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Speaker 1: and that was because the person was related to a

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Speaker 1: diplomatic official with potential diplomatic community situation like this, Why

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Speaker 1: why wouldn't you extradite them? This is we're talking about

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Speaker 1: alleged rape and child pornography. I mean, with the ghosts

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Speaker 1: of Jeffrey Epstein flying above, why or below? Why would

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Speaker 1: you try to make this a big issue? I mean,

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Speaker 1: my gosh, if there's anything that unites the parties, you

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Speaker 1: would think it's fighting sex exploitation of children.

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Speaker 3: So why will it take so long?

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Speaker 1: Then first you go to the magistrate, then a judge,

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Speaker 1: and then it goes to the appellate court. Then it

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Speaker 1: could go to the Supreme Court, and so it could

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Speaker 1: take a while. It could take a year, maybe even

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Speaker 1: a but it's probably in nurse of the benefit of

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Speaker 1: the Tape brothers to just accept the extradition because they're

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Speaker 1: in solitary confinement. They want to spend the next year

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Speaker 1: or two in solitary confinement. Doesn't seem like a victory

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Speaker 1: to me.

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Speaker 3: Well, they're asking for bail while they fight the extradition,

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Speaker 3: and there's going to be bail hearing on August thirteenth.

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Speaker 3: Their lawyers said they've been in solitary confinement, but they're

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Speaker 3: still under threat of getting stabbed, jump, murdered or whatever

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Speaker 3: it is in jail as accused sex offenders, but no

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Speaker 3: evidence of specific threats.

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Speaker 1: If you look up the definition of flight risk. You'll

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Speaker 1: see a picture of the tape.

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Speaker 2: Brothers.

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Speaker 1: Andrew Tate has all these bugattis and planes and money

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Speaker 1: and followers around the world. He's got passports for what

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Speaker 1: twelve different countries. He brags about that he can go

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Speaker 1: in any country and be immune from justice. This is

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Speaker 1: your typical flight risk that prosecutors point to and say,

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Speaker 1: do not let them out of jail. And so he's

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Speaker 1: not going anywhere. Now. What's interesting is that his brother,

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Speaker 1: Tristan Tate, has taken a different approach. His tweets about

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Speaker 1: his conditions are actually respectful. He praises the guards, Andrew

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Speaker 1: Tates the opposite. He can't help being the obnoxious guy

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Speaker 1: that he is. And so it sets up an interesting

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Speaker 1: situation that perhaps, just maybe you think that maybe Tristan

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Speaker 1: Tate sees his only way out of prison before he

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Speaker 1: dies is to flip on his brother. Do you think

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Speaker 1: or at least take a different approach, maybe cooperate. It

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Speaker 1: seems like Andrew's gonna go down with the ship.

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Speaker 3: Does it work anymore to say we'll put an ankle

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Speaker 3: bracelet on you, or does that not work anymore? In

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Speaker 3: the movies they cut them off.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, they can cut them off. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he's got access to planes and fast cars and boats

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Speaker 1: and a legion of supporters around the country in so

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Speaker 1: many passports. And after all, he somehow managed to wiggle

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Speaker 1: out of house arrest in Romania because apparently the Trump

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Speaker 1: ministration weighed in on their behalf. They're not going to

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Speaker 1: do it this time. So they are a flight risk.

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Speaker 1: They're the ultimate flight risks. I can't imagine a bigger

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Speaker 1: flight risk. I mean, I know that did he tried

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Speaker 1: to get out and they say you're a flight risk

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Speaker 1: because you're living on a waterfront property in Miami and

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Speaker 1: you've got boats. Yeah, this is times ten for these guys.

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Speaker 1: So no, they're not going anywhere, which is to me

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Speaker 1: why they should stop fighting extradition and just go back

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Speaker 1: and fight the charges.

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Speaker 3: So now let's turn to someone who's already been convicted

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Speaker 3: and sentenced, Brian Kohlberger. So he pleaded guilty last year

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Speaker 3: to murdering four University of Idaho students. He's serving four

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Speaker 3: consecutive life sentences. That guilty plea did spare him from

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Speaker 3: a possible death penalty, but he told The New York

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Speaker 3: Times that he's innocent and he's filed a petition to

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Speaker 3: withdraw his guilty plea and go to trial. How difficult

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Speaker 3: is it to withdraw a guilty plea?

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Speaker 1: Almost impossible post sentencing change please, almost never happen. Now,

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Speaker 1: you can try to do it before you get sentenced.

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Speaker 1: You can try to say, you know what, I have

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Speaker 1: a change of heart. And it's still hard. But after

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Speaker 1: you've been sentenced, after the judge has already said, okay,

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Speaker 1: are you sure you want to plead guilty and accept

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Speaker 1: the four life prison terms? And are you doing this

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Speaker 1: because you are guilty?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 1: No, one's co wercuit. Know you like your attorneys?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Now say I'm not guilty. I've been coerced and I

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Speaker 1: don't like my attorneys. Excuse me. You just set the

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Speaker 1: opposite under oath and you can't keep playing with the

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Speaker 1: emotions of the victims' families like this. But that's what

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Speaker 1: he's doing. Guy's a sociopath. The evidence is overwhelming against him.

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Speaker 1: That's why he took the plea. He really should have

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Speaker 1: gone to trials so he would be eligible for the

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Speaker 1: death penalty. But here he is his last throws a

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Speaker 1: power of leverage of relevance, where he is trying to

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Speaker 1: remind people who he is. You know, when he was

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Speaker 1: convicted and sent away, one of the family members of

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Speaker 1: the victims said, we will never think of you ever again.

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Speaker 1: Yet he's insisting that you will. And that's who this

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Speaker 1: person is, haven't The family's been through enough. So he's

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Speaker 1: going to lose. I don't even think he's going to

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Speaker 1: get a hearing. I think the judge will reject it

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Speaker 1: on the paper and he will be spending the rest

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Speaker 1: of his life in prison, which is still too good

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Speaker 1: for a guy like this. The only solace I have

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Speaker 1: is knowing that he hates prison. That's why, another reason

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Speaker 1: why he's doing this.

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Speaker 3: So here's what he said. That his attorneys failed to

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Speaker 3: disclose or review evidence that might have helped his case

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Speaker 3: during plea discussions, and that his attorneys insisted that his

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Speaker 3: plea need not be truthful despite petitioners vehement denial of

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Speaker 3: actual guilt, and they promised life in prison would come

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Speaker 3: with immediate contact, visits, freedom of movement, employment. The standard

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Speaker 3: is to show manifest injustice.

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Speaker 1: Yes, manifest in justice. You've got to show that you

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Speaker 1: are coerced into it. So if he has evidence that

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Speaker 1: he was coerced into taking the plea okay, show that

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Speaker 1: you just can't say it. Do you have evidence of

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Speaker 1: that that you were coerced into doing it or that

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Speaker 1: you had a mental deficiency at the time, not that

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Speaker 1: the attorneys you know, could have been better about researching

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Speaker 1: every lead out there. Those attorneys did an amazing job

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Speaker 1: for him because he was going to get the death penalty.

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Speaker 1: This is a pretty conservative state, Idaho. For innocent college

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Speaker 1: students slaughtered, and he was able to avoid the death penalty.

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Speaker 1: He should not be complaining about his attorneys. He should

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Speaker 1: be setting them a gift basket.

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Speaker 3: Great to have you on as always, Dave. That's Dave Ehrenberg,

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Speaker 3: former Palm Beach County State Attorney. And that's it for

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Speaker 3: this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can

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Speaker 3: always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast.

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Speaker 3: You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at

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Speaker 3: www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, and

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Speaker 3: remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight

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Speaker 3: you're listening to Bloomberg