Speaker 1: Quality times, but Joseph's gotten more. I've often thought about
Speaker 1: this because I see such a broad swath of true
Speaker 1: crime coverage and information about a variety of different deaths.
Speaker 1: You know, the country might be focused on, say, for instance,
Speaker 1: one thing that's going on like right now at the
Speaker 1: time of this taping, and we've got like the Karen
Speaker 1: Reid trial going on. We've got a variety of other
Speaker 1: things involving Coburger and Hureman and all these things that
Speaker 1: are waiting in the wings. There's a lot of ink
Speaker 1: being slung about. And I've often thought over the years,
Speaker 1: do we develop patterns as a consumer consumer public as
Speaker 1: it applies to true crime. And the reason I ask
Speaker 1: that to my cell is that do we get so
Speaker 1: caught up in cases where because they're in the public
Speaker 1: I that maybe other things will be forgotten. I'll give
Speaker 1: you a great example, and I've talked about this case
Speaker 1: extensively and been on various television shows and stuff, And
Speaker 1: that's a piked and masker back from sixteen up in
Speaker 1: southern Ohio. You had eight family members killed in that case,
Speaker 1: and hardly an ounce of ink was spilt over it.
Speaker 1: But yet you had other things that were singular deaths
Speaker 1: where the coverage was just intense, you know, things like
Speaker 1: I don't know the Jody Arias case going back to
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen. It all depends on what hits, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. Right now, we're in the middle of
Speaker 1: the Hureman case, which is lisk in Gilgo Beach, and
Speaker 1: it's all the rage. Everybody wants to talk about it,
Speaker 1: as well as should. But you know, there's another group
Speaker 1: of deaths that have made their way into the news cycle,
Speaker 1: and some people are hinting that there might be a
Speaker 1: serial killer on the loose in a specific region of
Speaker 1: our country. Now are these deaths related, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Is that a consequence of maybe all of the news
Speaker 1: about human I don't know, or is their validity to this?
Speaker 1: Are people putting two and two together? Let's chat about it.
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags. I
Speaker 1: think that as humans day, our lives are all about patterns.
Speaker 1: You know, there's certain ways that we go about things.
Speaker 1: There's certain things that we view, there's certain things that
Speaker 1: we consume and read and all of those and you know,
Speaker 1: I think about things that you know, for instance, that
Speaker 1: I watch on YouTube. I watch generally nothing political. I
Speaker 1: watch nothing about true crime unless it's something that i'm studying.
Speaker 1: Most of the time, the stuff that I direct myself
Speaker 1: toward is history. You know, I love to study history
Speaker 1: in the classics, and that's a pattern I've developed over
Speaker 1: the years. You've been in media for a long time,
Speaker 1: and you've been I don't know, I love this old term.
Speaker 1: I would classify you as a newsman. You were, You
Speaker 1: were a news reader for many years and have covered
Speaker 1: news all over the country, and I'm just I'm curious.
Speaker 1: Do you do you think the media develops pattern.
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm more of a I am more of a
Speaker 2: commentator than a news reader. And the reason is real basics.
Speaker 2: I've had to explain this to my family recently, and
Speaker 2: that is as far as reading goes, I'm a voracious reader.
Speaker 2: I read a lot, but I don't read word for word.
Speaker 2: I paraphrase as I read, and you can't do that
Speaker 2: when you're a news anchorman. I'm not a news anchorman.
Speaker 2: I am actually a reporter, journalist, and a commentator. So
Speaker 2: I ended up on Nancy Show to start with. You know,
Speaker 2: you have an expertise that very few people possess. And
Speaker 2: because it comes from an education in the classroom, and
Speaker 2: it comes in from work in the field and by
Speaker 2: the way, being successful at both at the academics and
Speaker 2: in the field, and you're able to bring that together
Speaker 2: and then you have that next level talent of being
Speaker 2: able to make people like me understand what it is
Speaker 2: you're talking about. And I don't even think you realize
Speaker 2: how good you are at what you do. And I'm
Speaker 2: coming from broadcasting end of it, Joe, You're able to
Speaker 2: take like I'm excited about doing this particular show because
Speaker 2: it has the broadcasting end of it, the angle. We've
Speaker 2: named it already, Nesk. You mentioned the Long Island serial
Speaker 2: killer RECs hereman calling it LISK. This one has already
Speaker 2: been named NESK. The New England serial Killer is their one.
Speaker 2: And this story has gotten legs because of social media.
Speaker 2: There are Facebook pages devoted to it, and Twitter accounts
Speaker 2: and x accounts and tiktoks are being devoted and we're
Speaker 2: talking thousands of people by the day asking questions about
Speaker 2: this story. We have right now six six female bodies
Speaker 2: recovered between March sixth and April tenth in one area
Speaker 2: of the northeast.
Speaker 1: So wow, we've only tight that's a very tight window
Speaker 1: from yes, Tom sequencing as far as it is, and it's.
Speaker 2: Recent, it's right now. I mean it's like, you know,
Speaker 2: we're talking two weeks ago, Joe, when you and I
Speaker 2: were up in East Hampton, right, what was the name
Speaker 2: of the place that we landed in ice Lip?
Speaker 3: Right? The Long Island.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of our victims actually is from there, and
Speaker 2: we were just there a couple of weeks ago as
Speaker 2: a couple of these bodies were being recovered on April
Speaker 2: ninth and April tenth. So this is a somewhat media
Speaker 2: generated event, but it's coming from the ground swell of
Speaker 2: true crime people, armchair detectives, if you will. Something you
Speaker 2: and I talked about at a conn a conference, how
Speaker 2: not important, but how impactful it is that some stories
Speaker 2: get attention while others don't. And now you know you
Speaker 2: mentioned piked in I. Until you and I talked about it,
Speaker 2: I did nothing about it. I knew nothing about that story.
Speaker 2: And then when I got into it, I'm like, how
Speaker 2: do we.
Speaker 3: Not know about this?
Speaker 2: But Joe, there are stories that you and I have
Speaker 2: covered and spent many hours on that other people are
Speaker 2: going When did that happen was that and you're going
Speaker 2: it happened three weeks ago, you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: So it's hit and missed with a lot of You have.
Speaker 1: To run, You have to run to keep up many times.
Speaker 1: And it's I don't know if you concur with this,
Speaker 1: but it's almost like there are rarely cases where a
Speaker 1: gigantic gate comes down and you have to stop what
Speaker 1: you're doing and you focus everything on those cases. You know,
Speaker 1: you look at lisk with Long Island, Long Island serial
Speaker 1: Killer so called, you think about that, and you might
Speaker 1: if you look at it chronologically, you know, from the
Speaker 1: first body that was found until the very life asked.
Speaker 1: I don't know that there was like some huge gait
Speaker 1: that descended and everybody stopped and looked. It took a
Speaker 1: long time and a lot of people grinding over the scene,
Speaker 1: and not just not just the law enforcement people, but
Speaker 1: people in the media that knew that something was up
Speaker 1: and they tried to keep the story alive. And I
Speaker 1: think the one it's I think, I'm just curious if
Speaker 1: this is if this is fertile ground for a cautionary tale,
Speaker 1: because I'm worried. I'm worried about this based upon somebody
Speaker 1: that has assessed cerial homicides, okay, over the course of
Speaker 1: my career, and I'm trying to understand is because there's
Speaker 1: just certain things that we look for now. I just
Speaker 1: want to know if those elements are there.
Speaker 2: And that's why I am so thankful that you have
Speaker 2: the time to do this, because I'm watching members of
Speaker 2: the media and they are salivating over Nesk the New
Speaker 2: England serial killer. And my first question, Joe, is this
Speaker 2: something that you're familiar with, not the way it's being covered,
Speaker 2: but are you familiar with serial killers and figuring out
Speaker 2: what happened? Is this something you've worked before, Is it
Speaker 2: something you can teach? Is it What are we actually
Speaker 2: doing when it comes to this, because we've got armchair
Speaker 2: detectives with no education and no background that are making
Speaker 2: accusations and casting us versions and creating a media serial killer.
Speaker 2: Yet we've got three females identified that remains identified. We're
Speaker 2: talking about somebody's mother, somebody's daughter, somebody's sister that we
Speaker 2: didn't find, a body we found remains Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: there's a bit of a difference. I need you to
Speaker 2: help me. I need you to explain to me what
Speaker 2: a serial killer is, how do you identify that? And
Speaker 2: does this fit?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, if okay, let's just say if all of
Speaker 1: the these cases are related, Yeah, it meets the classic
Speaker 1: definition three or more, and that number has varied for years.
Speaker 1: I think at one point in time the number was
Speaker 1: higher and then they reduced it. And I think it
Speaker 1: was reduced by the people at the Behavioral Sciences Unit
Speaker 1: in Quantico with FBI, they pulled it back down to three.
Speaker 1: I might be wrong about that, but I think initially
Speaker 1: the number was higher. So yeah, from that, from that
Speaker 1: basic precept, yeah, this would be this would qualify as
Speaker 1: a series of serialized homicides. But we still we're just
Speaker 1: this case. We don't even know that these are homicides
Speaker 1: at this point in time. We don't because I got
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, I don't know about you.
Speaker 1: Everything I've read, I haven't seen a cause of death yet,
Speaker 1: I Joe, you know, and I just you know, what
Speaker 1: I know is that we've got there's a big similarity here,
Speaker 1: because well, let's just look at it geographically. You know,
Speaker 1: it's the northeast, and you can I don't know, I
Speaker 1: guess you could say that you could proverbial throw a
Speaker 1: proverbial hat over the areas. I think that most of
Speaker 1: the areas where these women's bodies have been found are
Speaker 1: like in a one hundred mile radius or maybe a
Speaker 1: little bit more. Yeah, so, yeah, geographically it could fit,
Speaker 1: but we're missing huge pieces here. You know, every serialized
Speaker 1: homicide I've ever worked, and I'm thinking back right now,
Speaker 1: over the course of my career in New Orleans, I
Speaker 1: think I worked three sets of serial killings down there
Speaker 1: somewhere somewhere. On one case in particular, I just knew
Speaker 1: that there were probably hundreds of bodies up and down
Speaker 1: IT ten and the guy had been called the IT
Speaker 1: ten killer a variety of names. I had another set
Speaker 1: that guy killed six women and he was caught actually
Speaker 1: dumping the body in the same location where he dumped
Speaker 1: all the other ones. The sheriff's office finally set up
Speaker 1: a hide and was watching literally saw it caught him
Speaker 1: pulling a body out of the trunk of a car.
Speaker 3: That's kind of like Wayne will Williams in Atlanta.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, with splashing the water. Yeah. And then there
Speaker 1: were there was another set and my memory fails me
Speaker 1: on that one. But when I got to Atlanta. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we had several Memorial Drive killer was killing prostitutes. We
Speaker 1: had the Von City Killer. There were like two or
Speaker 1: three other ones too that we thought were cereal serial related.
Speaker 1: And you know, the thing about it is is that
Speaker 1: you have to establish a pattern. And I think one
Speaker 1: of the big missing pieces here is that we don't
Speaker 1: if we don't have a causal statement relative to what
Speaker 1: brought about these deaths. That's a big piece, okay, because
Speaker 1: most serial killers, they have a preference for how they
Speaker 1: take people's lives. I'll give you an example. The guy
Speaker 1: was telling me about it was pulling the bodies out
Speaker 1: of the trunk of the car. He loved to use
Speaker 1: wire to use as a groat around the necks of
Speaker 1: these prostitutes, and he would drug them beforehand, and then
Speaker 1: the groat is essentially got a one little handle and
Speaker 1: you can tighten it down, loosen it, and he would
Speaker 1: loosen it multiple times. He was driving pleasure from this
Speaker 1: guy was a sadist and filled with a lot of anger.
Speaker 1: He'd kill women. Every time he got into a fight
Speaker 1: with his fiance. He wouldn't attack her. You go out
Speaker 1: and find it prostituct killer, Oh.
Speaker 3: My gosh, yeah, no, using the garroat like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the guy, the clown in Chicago that buried the
Speaker 2: gay sy.
Speaker 3: That's what he used.
Speaker 2: He would play all kinds of little tricks and things
Speaker 2: to get the handcuff.
Speaker 1: Trick and all of that. And yeah, and he and
Speaker 1: again he was another guy that hadn't come to terms
Speaker 1: with his own homosexuality. Is very angry.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: And he would use ligatures, which a groat is a
Speaker 1: form of a ligature, or bare hands. But you know,
Speaker 1: you're thinking about suffocation or strangulation. I've you know, And
Speaker 1: it's interesting, Dave. You know that the line share of
Speaker 1: the cases that I worked involved a SIXIA. I never
Speaker 1: had like a I don't know what's the guy's name
Speaker 1: up in New York, Son, Sam, I never had, you know,
Speaker 1: they called him the forty four caliber killer. I never
Speaker 1: worked serial killings that involved handguns or rifles even you know,
Speaker 1: it's just firearms. I don't think I ever worked Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think I ever worked a case involved in
Speaker 1: serial killing with an edged weapon. They now, I've had
Speaker 1: multiple people killed by one person wielding an edge weapon,
Speaker 1: but not like a series of going out and stabbing
Speaker 1: somebody or cutting their throats and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: I didn't realize you'd worked so many, Okay, I didn't
Speaker 2: think there were that many serial killings, like when you
Speaker 2: started naming them off, you know, Yeah, I didn't realize
Speaker 2: there were that many, And I certainly didn't know you
Speaker 2: had had this was part and parcel of your Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think about it with serial killings dependent upon
Speaker 1: their geographic positioning, I think that it's more the exception.
Speaker 1: And somebody's going to gig me on this, I know,
Speaker 1: it seems to me that it's more the exception than
Speaker 1: the norm to have somebody that's like a BTK that's
Speaker 1: settled in a community, has been there for years and
Speaker 1: years and is not moving about to hunt prey. You know,
Speaker 1: they're hunting in the one little area. And I know
Speaker 1: people say that they hunt with areas they're familiar with,
Speaker 1: But if you look at long haul truckers, where are
Speaker 1: they familiar with, Well, they're familiar with their truck, that's
Speaker 1: their moving house, and they're familiar with truck stops, and
Speaker 1: so you get that, you know, quite a bit. So
Speaker 1: there's kind of a mish mash out there. Just like
Speaker 1: over the years, there's been a a mish mash or
Speaker 1: not not a mishmash, but kind of a confusion about
Speaker 1: the number of kills that it takes to be classified
Speaker 1: as a serial killer. This area that we're talking about
Speaker 1: in the Northeast day, my gosh, there are interstates running everywhere,
Speaker 1: and so, you know, I was talking about, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of throwing the proverbial hat on this. If you're
Speaker 1: thinking about, you know, an area that's kind of circling
Speaker 1: a particular location. How can they get in, how can
Speaker 1: they get out? What's the geography like, where are they
Speaker 1: found relative to roadways, what's the terrain like where they're recovered.
Speaker 1: Are they just being dumped out inside the road? Are
Speaker 1: they being placed in water? Which one of these cases
Speaker 1: I know was found in a river. So there's a
Speaker 1: lot to consider here, But this is what I do
Speaker 1: know at this point in time. I do know that
Speaker 1: I don't have a cause of death on these victims,
Speaker 1: and I also know that to that end, I don't
Speaker 1: know if there is a connectivity between the types of death,
Speaker 1: the instrumentality that may or may not have been used,
Speaker 1: and also is there a common denominator relative to the
Speaker 1: perpetrator thing being called again, David was Immedia.
Speaker 2: It's being called NESTS stands for New England serial Killer.
Speaker 2: One thing I did want to pop in here with
Speaker 2: Joe because I looked it up. You were and I
Speaker 2: were talking about I twenty and you were right. It
Speaker 2: ends in Texas at the intersection of I ten and
Speaker 2: I thought it was in West Texas.
Speaker 3: So there you go. But yeah, the law there you
Speaker 3: got the.
Speaker 2: Long Island serial killer, which has been in the news now,
Speaker 2: to be honest with you, for a long time, it was,
Speaker 2: you know, from It's been called different things too, and
Speaker 2: I still think there could be another person involved. But
Speaker 2: and the other question, do you really think Hureman stopped?
Speaker 2: But that's another day. Now we've got this New England
Speaker 2: serial killer story and the reason is we have six
Speaker 2: women who have been found. Now, I want to be
Speaker 2: really clear and how I asked this show, when I
Speaker 2: asked you about serial killers and how many serial killer
Speaker 2: cases you've worked, and is there a commonality among the
Speaker 2: victims as well as the perpetrator that.
Speaker 1: You can creator? Yeah, I can't. And I'm only talking
Speaker 1: about my little slice supply, all right. I don't have
Speaker 1: the forty thousand foot view that the FBI has I'm
Speaker 1: just talking about my little slice suppie the areas I
Speaker 1: worked in. Okay, my commonality perpetrator, I've the best of
Speaker 1: my knowledge, at least, I never had a female perpetrator.
Speaker 1: They were all males, and with the exception of the
Speaker 1: Vine City killings in Atlanta, who were all elderly ladies,
Speaker 1: which is disgusting on another level, entirely, they were prostitutes
Speaker 1: almost to a person, you know, I didn't have this
Speaker 1: kind of like you have would BTK where he's randomly targeting.
Speaker 1: I mean literally, you know, the first the first victims
Speaker 1: that he claimed were literally a nuclear family.
Speaker 3: I was gonna say it was a family in the base, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Terra and they he went in and walked out
Speaker 1: the lot. And so, you know, it's it's always been
Speaker 1: in my case, at least, it's always been female prostitutes.
Speaker 1: I haven't I have not know. I have had friends
Speaker 1: that have worked or colleagues that have worked cases involving
Speaker 1: male prostitutes. Over the years. Myself, it's always been female prostitutes.
Speaker 1: The line share of them have been you know, living
Speaker 1: on the streets, had very and this is kind of
Speaker 1: a classic profile, had very little contact with their biological family.
Speaker 1: Matter of fact, many times families wouldn't even know what
Speaker 1: had happened to him. That's what makes them such easy prey.
Speaker 1: But I don't you know as of right now, where
Speaker 1: you know if they're building out a profile. And I
Speaker 1: would assume that some of the authorities have reached out
Speaker 1: and I've got a big clue to that, and I'm
Speaker 1: going to reveal it to you about trying to build
Speaker 1: out a profile. If they are believing that these are
Speaker 1: a serialized event, you're going to want to know what
Speaker 1: these individuals backgrounds are, and you know, if there's some
Speaker 1: kind of commonality. Now the reason that I think that
Speaker 1: a profile could be built out, and again, we don't
Speaker 1: know everything the police know at this time, and we
Speaker 1: should not know everything that the police know. You know,
Speaker 1: these are outside so horses that are putting together these things. Okay,
Speaker 1: so the police. This is the way it generally works.
Speaker 1: If you have a serialized event and it's multi jurisdictional,
Speaker 1: the first thing you're going to do is that there
Speaker 1: will generally be a task force formed in a single jurisdiction.
Speaker 1: So let's say you've got multiple bodies that are found
Speaker 1: in the state of Connecticut. Okay, Well, under the auspices
Speaker 1: of the state, they can get together and they will
Speaker 1: form a task force within that state. All right, Now,
Speaker 1: if you've got one case, which there is one case
Speaker 1: in this group that they've identified as nests that originates
Speaker 1: out of Rhode Island, Dave, that person will not necessarily
Speaker 1: be on the task force. And then there's another case.
Speaker 1: There's cases out of Massachusetts and I think New Hampshire
Speaker 1: as well, So you've got it's multi jurisdictional. So how
Speaker 1: do you unite all of these people? Well, first off,
Speaker 1: you have to be able to prove that there's connectivity
Speaker 1: with physical evidence, cause of death, typology of the way
Speaker 1: they were found, what was perpetrated against them, and that
Speaker 1: includes things like any kind of instruments that we use,
Speaker 1: Was there any kind of posing that was done with
Speaker 1: the bodies, where they missing closed, where they all clothed,
Speaker 1: was their clothing manipulated, were there any kind of post
Speaker 1: mortem amputations that people taking trophies, anything like that. And
Speaker 1: then what would happen is the next tier with this
Speaker 1: will be the FEDS, and it'll be like the FBI.
Speaker 1: They would form a federal task force and the FBI
Speaker 1: would begin to work probably on a profile of not
Speaker 1: just the victims, but also the potential perpetrator here. So
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that have to get into
Speaker 1: motion in order to get everybody going in the correct direction.
Speaker 1: One things I found out about being on a task force,
Speaker 1: and again I'm just a corner medical examiner kind of guy.
Speaker 1: I wasn't like going out and arresting people I was examining.
Speaker 1: Remains the one thing that I have found though, and
Speaker 1: I was always fascinated by, was with these task force
Speaker 1: there is ego comes into it big time because everybody
Speaker 1: wants everybody wants the claim to fame if it turns
Speaker 1: out to be Let's just say, for instance, like with Lisk,
Speaker 1: if you've got a multi jurisdictional thing, you know, everybody
Speaker 1: would like to say, well, you know, we're the people
Speaker 1: that stopped Lisk. Okay, same thing would apply here. You
Speaker 1: have to remain You have to have a leader of
Speaker 1: the group that's going to keep you focused on what
Speaker 1: the task is at hand. So if you've got this
Speaker 1: really divergent group of women we're talking six here, three
Speaker 1: of which are still unidentified to this point, are you
Speaker 1: going to be able to jam down those egos and
Speaker 1: stay focused, like a laser, focus on what the task
Speaker 1: is and that is ultimately getting this monster off the streets.
Speaker 2: All right now, I've got a question for you because
Speaker 2: we do have a lot of We have a lot
Speaker 2: of information, and I think I already told you this.
Speaker 2: We have three of the remains identified and three not identified.
Speaker 2: So let me start with the one woman, not the
Speaker 2: first one to go missing. Because even though they were
Speaker 2: all found in the last month or so, in the
Speaker 2: last several weeks, that doesn't mean they were killed right
Speaker 2: away or that they died right away.
Speaker 3: We don't even know they were killed. We just know
Speaker 3: we have remains. We don't know if they were murdered.
Speaker 3: You know, we don't know what we do know.
Speaker 2: Like Page fan In, for example, Page fan In's body
Speaker 2: was found on March the sixth page is from this
Speaker 2: is the lady I was talking about from Icelip that
Speaker 2: you and I flew into and she was reported missing
Speaker 2: in New York on March fourth of this year, last
Speaker 2: scene on March fifth, and her body was found March sixth.
Speaker 2: This does not seem to fit into any of the
Speaker 2: other cases that we're talking about because of where her
Speaker 2: body was found, and how quickly you know she was
Speaker 2: found based on when she was last seen, and she
Speaker 2: was found in water after a very heavy rainfall. But
Speaker 2: that was hers was the first body located found. The
Speaker 2: next was Denise Leary. Denise Leary was found on March
Speaker 2: twentieth of twenty twenty five. Denise was reported missing Joe
Speaker 2: back last September. And that's where I look at that
Speaker 2: and go, Okay, her condition, the remains of her, is
Speaker 2: going to be a lot different than the remains of
Speaker 2: Page Fannin. I mean, you have Paige Fannin that was
Speaker 2: actually seen the day before her body was found, right,
Speaker 2: And then we have one other woman who has been identified.
Speaker 2: Her name is Michelle Romano. Her body was found on
Speaker 2: March twenty sixth. She went missing August of last year.
Speaker 2: That is a long time, yeah, it is.
Speaker 1: And of course her body, her body would be in
Speaker 1: more than an advanced state of decomposition. Let's go back
Speaker 1: to Page Fannin real quick now. We mentioned that she's
Speaker 1: from West Island, New York, which is on Long Island,
Speaker 1: as you and I are now well aware of.
Speaker 2: And by the way, until two weeks ago, I could
Speaker 2: not have told you where it was just so you know, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's I mean that in a positive way. I've
Speaker 2: always wanted to know that area. But I'm to be
Speaker 2: honest with your friends. If you're not from New York,
Speaker 2: if you're not from that area, it's kind of like
Speaker 2: I'm from I am from southern California, and so I
Speaker 2: know what people think out there. It's just different than
Speaker 2: you can imagine. What a beautiful area and the nicest
Speaker 2: people I've ever met, Jerry, the nicest.
Speaker 3: People I've ever met in my life. That really were unbelievable.
Speaker 1: And I enjoyed going up there every year for the
Speaker 1: Hampton who done it, uh with with Paige Fannin. You know,
Speaker 1: she was actually from West Island, but she was down
Speaker 1: in a river in Connecticut, and so she's you know,
Speaker 1: she was found as a result of them asking for
Speaker 1: She was found with the assistance of a drone actually,
Speaker 1: and so she was up there for a reason, okay,
Speaker 1: and where she fell into and I don't know that
Speaker 1: you know, just because you fall into a very fast
Speaker 1: moving river, which she was actually found in the Norwalk River,
Speaker 1: and it's like racing through there. And I don't know
Speaker 1: if you've ever been caught up in a current like
Speaker 1: that before in a river. I have almost drowned in
Speaker 1: a salmon fishing a river up in Michigan one day,
Speaker 1: and you know, it just kind of pulled me down
Speaker 1: the river, and I'm a pretty stout guy and I
Speaker 1: couldn't fight it. So if you're thinking about with her,
Speaker 1: what types of injuries did she display when they pulled
Speaker 1: her out of the water. And she's only been down
Speaker 1: for a couple of days, so it's not like she
Speaker 1: was left somewhere out in the woods where she's in
Speaker 1: a state of decay. So that's kind of an interesting
Speaker 1: person that they've put into this mix. I'd like to
Speaker 1: know for my purposes as an investigator, Dave, and I'm
Speaker 1: in all honesty, I would go to the local authorities
Speaker 1: up there in Connectu. I'd say, hey, let me ask
Speaker 1: you something. How many other people have you ever had
Speaker 1: drowned in this river? Are found dead in this river?
Speaker 1: Is this something that happens regularly or is this so
Speaker 1: rare that you're sitting here scratching your head thinking had
Speaker 1: you wind up in the river, Because this has never
Speaker 1: happened before. So I would have to kind of understand
Speaker 1: that and understand the dynamic around the river. How do
Speaker 1: you get to it? Can you fall off a bridge?
Speaker 1: Can you slip off of rocks? You know what's the
Speaker 1: story here?
Speaker 2: So you know, we're immedately thinking if it's not an accident,
Speaker 2: somebody picked this and got discarded her body.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And here's the thing about it. If you go
Speaker 1: down the road with serialized event, if the river is
Speaker 1: moving this fast, which that's the way they've portrayed this thing.
Speaker 1: Lord only knows where she could have gone in. You know,
Speaker 1: how long does the Norwalk River run. It's obviously not
Speaker 1: the Mississippi, But how far upstream could she have potentially
Speaker 1: gone in? Did she fall into the water where she
Speaker 1: was laying her head at night to go to sleep,
Speaker 1: or was she so far away from her point of
Speaker 1: origin that you would think, hm, wow, this is kind
Speaker 1: of impressive that her body traveled all of this distance.
Speaker 1: Where did she enter the river? Also? What types of
Speaker 1: injuries does she have to her body? I pulled a
Speaker 1: lot of bodies out of rivers, bodies of water, and
Speaker 1: it's amazing what happens to a body in in water,
Speaker 1: particularly rapidly moving water, because bodies bounce off of everything,
Speaker 1: they get scratched by limbs that are hanging out debris,
Speaker 1: they get caught up in debris. You'll see bodies that
Speaker 1: will actually have leaves and grass in their mouth and
Speaker 1: their nose. They'll be covered in mud because they'll go
Speaker 1: into like a mud bank then become dislodged. You know.
Speaker 1: So it's a huge dynamic that you're having to deal
Speaker 1: with in a case like page fans of course.
Speaker 2: Okay, so she's the first body found, and by the way,
Speaker 2: she was found two days after she was reported missing.
Speaker 2: So let's move to Denise Leary. Denise Leary, Joe was
Speaker 2: reported missing or it was last seen September twenty ninth
Speaker 2: of last year.
Speaker 3: And I don't know if you do this. I know
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 2: I think of where was I on September twenty ninth
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty four, Where was I and what was
Speaker 2: I doing?
Speaker 1: I do it too, Yep.
Speaker 2: Okay, this makes it relatable for me and for family
Speaker 2: when I try to figure out what happened, to try
Speaker 2: to explain it, what happened with her that we know of.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, again, she's actually found not in water.
Speaker 1: She's actually found in the one hundred block of a
Speaker 1: place called Rock Creek Road that were clearing brush, okay
Speaker 1: out of a wooded area and they made this discovery. Now,
Speaker 1: she's last seen in September day, September twenty ninth, found
Speaker 1: in March March of this year, March twentieth, to be specific.
Speaker 1: Can I tell you this. She's in such an advanced
Speaker 1: state that the police to this day are still waiting
Speaker 1: from the medical examiner to find out what her cause
Speaker 1: of pent or death are. That's how difficult this is.
Speaker 1: And here's one other thing about her that if you
Speaker 1: begin to kind of profile victims and try to understand,
Speaker 1: because you have to understand where they come from, you know,
Speaker 1: what their background is, what would well, allegedly, you know,
Speaker 1: miss Leary had suffered from paranoid schizphrenia. Now that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean on any level that people that are dealing with
Speaker 1: psychopathology can't be victims of serial killers, Okay, because there
Speaker 1: are a lot of people out on the streets that
Speaker 1: have terrible mental health issues, and there's weak as lambs.
Speaker 1: You might be terrified of them when you're standing around them,
Speaker 1: but they really are. They don't have the ability necessarily
Speaker 1: to defend themselves, particularly a defended a diminutive little woman
Speaker 1: like miss Leary. So if if she's out there, yeah,
Speaker 1: could she potentially be prey for a serial killer? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I suppose that she could be. How she getting by
Speaker 1: if she's living on the streets, how she getting by
Speaker 1: on the read? Did she have family members who regularly
Speaker 1: checked in with Was she eating regularly? You know? Was
Speaker 1: she taking medication? Because if she's been diagnosed with paranoids goods,
Speaker 1: you have to think that she's got a doctor or
Speaker 1: a therapist that's having to maintenance her. When's the last
Speaker 1: time they saw When's the last time she had her meds?
Speaker 1: So that's that's a big question here. But she's found
Speaker 1: in a brushy area and she's in an advanced state
Speaker 1: of decomposition. Was she drug there to be hidden? You know?
Speaker 1: From view? Well, it was the status of her clothing,
Speaker 1: because even if you've got a decomposing body, I think
Speaker 1: the people think that the clothing decomposes as well. I
Speaker 1: actually have students say that to me at one point
Speaker 1: in time. Clothing is very resilient. So even as the
Speaker 1: body swells and then begins to contract back, the clothing
Speaker 1: is still going to be in place. If they were
Speaker 1: closed to begin with, so that's something that you would
Speaker 1: certainly consider in this case.
Speaker 2: I have a favorite aunt, Joe, that lived with mental illness,
Speaker 2: and she was one of my favorite people of all times,
Speaker 2: but there were times where it would be very difficult
Speaker 2: for my mother to deal with her, you know. And
Speaker 2: that's why whenever people immediately jump to a conclusion because
Speaker 2: of mental health, it always bothers me because you really
Speaker 2: have to know every person, whether they have mental health
Speaker 2: issues or not, is different. We're all unique specimens in
Speaker 2: a lot of ways. Michelle Romano Joe Michelle Romano went
Speaker 2: missing on August eighteenth of last year. Her remains were
Speaker 2: discovered on March twenty sixth, and her remains were found
Speaker 2: or the Rhode Island State Police reported this one. This
Speaker 2: goes back to you. I didn't. I'm going to be
Speaker 2: honest with you, and I hope a lot of people
Speaker 2: caught you when you said this earlier about the different
Speaker 2: jurisdictions that are going to be dealing with all of these.
Speaker 2: As we collectively look at six women who have been
Speaker 2: found dead in this very small geographic area, I think
Speaker 2: each one of them is in a different law enforcement jurisdiction.
Speaker 2: And how will that play into solving this, right, if
Speaker 2: they're tied together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if in fact they are tied together, you're going
Speaker 1: to have to find that one thread. You know, if
Speaker 1: you imagine, and I'm kind of a simple guy, I
Speaker 1: love work pictures, if you literally imagine a thread being
Speaker 1: pulled by a gigantic needle. What is it that connects
Speaker 1: all of these cases together? That commonality, you know, that
Speaker 1: kind of runs through them? And again, you know, like
Speaker 1: in the case of miss Romano, there's connectivity perhaps with
Speaker 1: the way miss Leary was found and the way Miss
Speaker 1: Romano is found. First off, miss Ramano was reported missing
Speaker 1: back on August eighteenth of twenty twenty four. Well, you
Speaker 1: know that's that's dredibly close to you know, the same
Speaker 1: date with you know, miss Leary, she's September twenty ninth
Speaker 1: of two thousand and four. And again, mister Romano is
Speaker 1: not found until March twenty sixth of twenty five. And
Speaker 1: here's the other commonality between Leary and Romano. They're both
Speaker 1: found in wooded areas. Okay, so you know, if you're
Speaker 1: looking for little things to kind of pin together here,
Speaker 1: remember that connective thread that runs through that would be
Speaker 1: that would be significant, I think, you know, because and again,
Speaker 1: how were the bodies found? I always returned back to
Speaker 1: this because I worked a case where guy was always
Speaker 1: posing bodies a series of cases, and I think I
Speaker 1: caught like two of them. But there were people from Jacksonville, Florida,
Speaker 1: all the way to Beaumont, Texas that had caught cases
Speaker 1: that they believed were related. And this guy always posed
Speaker 1: the bodies. So that's one, you know, I'm kind of
Speaker 1: prejudice in my mind relative to that. I always want
Speaker 1: to know the position of the body, you know. I
Speaker 1: always want to where they seated, where they sprawled out,
Speaker 1: you know. And he also had an affinity for taking
Speaker 1: their underwear off, turning it inside out, and putting it
Speaker 1: back on the body. You know. So there's those little
Speaker 1: bitty nuanced things that you look for in all of
Speaker 1: these cases. And again they haven't released information to let
Speaker 1: us know that, you know, what that commonality is that
Speaker 1: runs through. Is there any anything here between these two
Speaker 1: cases that you can kind of hitch them together. I
Speaker 1: think that that's that's that's very important age groupings as well.
Speaker 2: Now, because you've got Denise's fifty nine, Denise Leary is
Speaker 2: fifty nine, Michelle Romano is fifty six.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and bracketing of ages. If you've got somebody that
Speaker 1: is generally a that's a sexual predator, for instance, they
Speaker 1: have an affinity for a okay, and that does hold
Speaker 1: true with most serial perpetrators. There is a group of people,
Speaker 1: you know, I think probably the first time that was there,
Speaker 1: I get so sick and tired of saying this guy's name,
Speaker 1: but I can't. It's he's always the benchmark for everything
Speaker 1: in serial killing. And that's that's Bundy. You know, there's
Speaker 1: that famous have you ever seen that that famous collage
Speaker 1: of images of all of the victims together, and they've
Speaker 1: all got brown or black long hair, you know, and
Speaker 1: he had a type going back to the forty four
Speaker 1: caliber killer with Son of Sam remembered, well, women up
Speaker 1: there in that area, in the New York area were
Speaker 1: actually changing their hairstyles because of him, because they said
Speaker 1: he was targeting a certain type. And so that's that's
Speaker 1: a big thing, you know, with them, what what are
Speaker 1: they looking for? And type can be appearance, it can
Speaker 1: be age. Okay. You think of Von City in Atlanta, Well,
Speaker 1: you're looking at victims in their seventies, in their eighties,
Speaker 1: you know, and I know what you you know, Look,
Speaker 1: Dave and I look at each other with the camera
Speaker 1: and you're shaking his head and you're right. But you know,
Speaker 1: you think you know what's the driver behind this, what's
Speaker 1: the psychopathology that goes into the individual that's choosing to
Speaker 1: do this to these people. But again, we still don't know.
Speaker 1: With these three women that we've mentioned to date that
Speaker 1: are identified, we don't know what their cause and manner
Speaker 1: of death is, and two of them is they're so
Speaker 1: advanced in decomposition that I don't know. And you know
Speaker 1: it wouldn't surprise me tell truth that that we're going
Speaker 1: to have we're going to have this come out and
Speaker 1: they're going to say something like if they rule it
Speaker 1: as a homicide, will be nonspecific homicidal violence. We hear
Speaker 1: that term all the time, and I understand why they
Speaker 1: do it, because it's hard to explain away why the
Speaker 1: bodies were there, why they were in the condition that
Speaker 1: they were there. Would they have just gone there and
Speaker 1: died of natural causes if you don't see any instrumentality
Speaker 1: that's associated with them having taken their own life like
Speaker 1: an old rusted pistol or maybe an open vial of drugs,
Speaker 1: a empty vole of drugs. Then you have to assume
Speaker 1: that it's something other than taking your own life or homicide.
Speaker 1: I don't know. You know, in the cases of Denise
Speaker 1: Leary and Paige Fannin and of course Michelle Romano, their
Speaker 1: loved ones, they know where they are, they know that
Speaker 1: they are in fact decease. They've been positively identified. But
Speaker 1: with these all the cases in total in question, there's
Speaker 1: still three that remain unidentified to this moment time when
Speaker 1: I'm recording this. You know, one found in March nineteenth
Speaker 1: in Connecticut, one found April ninth and killingly, and another
Speaker 1: found actually on April the tenth in Framingham. They're unidentified
Speaker 1: to this point, and also to this point we don't
Speaker 1: know who they are or what became of them. One
Speaker 1: interesting little aside is that the remains that were found
Speaker 1: in Groton, Connecticut on March the nineteenth, this individual who
Speaker 1: is female, actually presented with a condition. And listen to this.
Speaker 1: It's called Turner syndrome, and Turner syndrome is a genetic
Speaker 1: condition where the individual will present and it's something that's
Speaker 1: diagnosed early on in life. Generally, the individuals are shortened stature,
Speaker 1: they have delayed puberty, they have heart defects, Generally they're infertile,
Speaker 1: and also there is a pigmentation issue with their skin.
Speaker 1: This is very, very definitive as far as this person
Speaker 1: is concerned. I would urge anybody within the sound of
Speaker 1: my voice that if you know someone or you have
Speaker 1: a loved one that might be missing that has been
Speaker 1: diagnosed with Turner syndrome, and again this only occurs in females,
Speaker 1: you probably ought to reach out to the authorities in Growton, Connecticut,
Speaker 1: because this might be somebody that they're looking for. But
Speaker 1: we're going to keep our eye on all of these
Speaker 1: cases and see where the road leads. I'm Joseph Scott
Speaker 1: Moore and and this is body Bags. Mhm mhm.