1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: On the evening of January fifteenth, nineteen ninety nine, a 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: masked man approached two teenage boys in front of a 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: bodega in the Bronx on a corner known for drug activity. 4 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: The assailant drew a gun and shot one of the 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: young men several times while the other ran off. The 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: gunman chased the other young man down the block and 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: around the corner before paralyzing him with one shot to 8 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: the back. While both victims survived, only one was conscious, 9 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: but he couldn't or wouldn't provide a lead. An eyewitness 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: said that she recognized the shooter as a guy from 11 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: the neighborhood named Drey. The police remembered Andre Brown, a 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: neighborhood kid who was shot in the leg one year 13 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: prior in a drug dispute. The specter of his injured 14 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: leg and alternate suspects were ignored when both the witness 15 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: and the victim agreed that Andre was the assailant. But 16 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. Recently, 17 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: Jason Flamm and I were asked to record an interview 18 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: in front of a live audience at the annual United 19 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: Justice Coalition Summit. The UJC aims to raise awareness around 20 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: social justice issues and the need for criminal legal system reform. 21 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: So for our live interview, we thought of a mutual friend, 22 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: someone whose case I covered on my podcast Unjustin Unsolved 23 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:41,199 Speaker 1: while he was still wrongfully incarcerated, Andre Brown. Andre agreed 24 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: to join us at the summit along with his attorney 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: Oscar Michelin. 26 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: Thanks everybody for being here. I'm gonna ask, first of all, 27 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 2: how many people in this room were wrongfully convicted and sentenced? 28 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: Oh my god, see that? And how many people here 29 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 2: know somebody who was wrongfully convicted? Oh my god, that's 30 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 2: a lot of hands. Yeah, this shit is everywhere. It's horrible, 31 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: and I'm really really thrilled to be here with these amazing, 32 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: amazing people. Maggie Feeling, Oscar, and of course Andre Brown. 33 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 2: And I'm so glad that Andrea is here. I mean, 34 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you're here, because I'm so glad you're 35 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 2: here with your amazing, beautiful family and everything. But his 36 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: case start with this, Okay. It features a witness who 37 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: didn't testify, but her testimony was allowed in any way, 38 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 2: which meant that no one was allowed to cross examine her. 39 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: Second of all, the shooter shot one guy execution style, 40 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: then chased his friend caught up to him on the street. Now, 41 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 2: this is an eighteen year old kid running for his life, 42 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: and somehow this guy was fast enough to catch up 43 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: with him and shoot him and paralyze him too. Andre 44 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 2: had a bullet wound in his leg and had a 45 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: syndrome that meant that he could barely walk, much less run. 46 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 2: And it also features a lawyer who, while he was 47 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 2: representing Andrea A. Try Well, had a side hustle which 48 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 2: was committing so many crimes for the Banano crime family 49 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 2: that he ended up being the only attorney in American 50 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: history to enter the Witness Protection program. So it's a 51 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 2: shit show. So get ready to hear what we're about 52 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 2: to hear, because this is just different and Andre is 53 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: just a different kind of guy. I mean to no 54 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:21,519 Speaker 2: one is to love him. 55 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: So with that, Maggie all right, So hello everyone, thanks 56 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: for coming. So we're just gonna start from the top 57 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: with Andre. Why don't you tell us a little bit 58 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: about yourself. 59 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 3: I was raised in a two parent household. It was 60 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 3: the Uptime area, the Northeast Bronx. The crack epidemic was 61 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 3: going on a lot of gun shots being fired continuously. 62 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 3: The trains were littered homeless people, and it was just 63 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 3: a real, just tragic time in the Bronx. My life 64 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 3: was a fair life. My mother was a stewardess for 65 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 3: the airlines, and she raised us and groomed us to 66 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 3: be good individuals. And then my mother and my father separated. 67 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 3: At that time, I was in high school, and now 68 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 3: I was taken on the onus of raising my brothers. 69 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 3: So I said, how can I now change the course 70 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 3: of their lives and allow myself to continue in an 71 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,679 Speaker 3: upward manner. First I took on a job at creating barrel, 72 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 3: trying to think that it would be able to fit 73 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 3: the bill, and it didn't. It couldn't feed my little 74 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 3: sister or my other two brothers. So at that time 75 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 3: I said, you know what, I have to do something else. 76 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 3: And my friend introduced me to selling drugs. And when 77 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 3: I started to sell drugs, literally I thought I was 78 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 3: a genius at it. And this is how your mind 79 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,679 Speaker 3: gets cultivated poorly in the streets. You start to really 80 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 3: engage and think that you know better than law enforcement, 81 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 3: you know better than society, and you also know better 82 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 3: than that old adage car tune the turtle and the rabbit, 83 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,559 Speaker 3: thinking that, oh, I know what I'm doing. I'm running 84 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 3: past this little working man, this turtle. So in selling 85 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 3: drugs and thinking I was a genius, I got shot, 86 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: a simple leg shot, mind you, It hit my major 87 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 3: artery and I almost led to death. And that was 88 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 3: the turning point in my life. 89 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: So you almost died, So you got on a better 90 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: path in life. 91 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 3: Yes, First of all, you have to be an enforcer 92 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 3: on a block in order to hold it down. I 93 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 3: was injured, critically injured. I was at the point where 94 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 3: I couldn't walk, I could no longer hold down a block. 95 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 3: So I said, what am I going to do now 96 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,679 Speaker 3: with my life? And I started going back to college. 97 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 3: At that point I enrolled in BMCC. And that's when 98 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 3: you know. 99 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: Tragedy occurred, right, And I want to bring that to Oscar. 100 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: January fifteenth, nineteen ninety nine. What happened that day? 101 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 4: So, on that day there was a shooting on a 102 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 4: street corner in the Bronx Allerton Avenue, White Planes Road. 103 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 5: That area. 104 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 4: The corner there was Little Bodeig, a little corner store 105 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 4: had been a spot where young Jamaican gang had started 106 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 4: selling marijuana out of for the past about year or so, 107 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 4: and the cops were aware of that, and so there 108 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 4: became a little bit of a rival turf war for 109 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 4: that location from the earlier crews that had been working 110 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 4: there selling marijuana. And so the first incident that happened 111 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 4: was on January eleventh, there was a shootout on that corner, 112 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 4: two exchanges of gunfire. Nobody got shot, some cars were 113 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 4: shot up, so the police responded. On January thirteenth, two 114 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 4: days later, one of the guys that hustles on that corner, 115 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 4: guy named O'Neil virgo, got arrested, and sure enough the 116 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 4: gun he had on him was connected to the shooting 117 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 4: on the eleventh, so he gets the rest of for 118 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 4: a gun charge. And then on the fifteenth, O'Neil Virgo 119 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 4: and another man, Sewann Nicholson or out on that corner 120 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 4: selling drugs. Somebody comes up right down White Planes Road, 121 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 4: sees them on the corner, They see the gun, got 122 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 4: a mask on. The shooter literally stands over O'Neil virgo 123 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 4: and shoots him several times and then runs down the 124 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 4: street to try to get the other guy, Sewan Nicholson 125 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 4: they were in a full city block. 126 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 5: He makes a left turn onto the. 127 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 4: Next block, which is Alinville, and the shooter shoots him 128 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 4: there one time, hits him in the spine and paralyzes him. 129 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 4: Somehow they both survived, so his attempted murder, there was 130 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 4: lots of discrepancies as to what the shooter was wearing. 131 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 4: Was it a face mask, was it a a handkerchief 132 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 4: of bandana, et cetera. So they asked the victim at 133 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 4: that time, Sean Nicholson, mister Virgo could not speak. He 134 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 4: was the one who shot five or six times. And 135 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 4: that initial police report Sewan Nicholson, he says, I can't 136 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 4: identify the shooter, and so the police start scouring the 137 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 4: area looking for witnesses. 138 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 2: So how did it end up with them settling on 139 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: a guy who, it should have been painfully obvious from 140 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: the very beginning not only didn't do it, but couldn't 141 00:07:58,800 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: have done it. 142 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 4: They started listening to rumors in the in the street 143 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 4: and one of the women who later recanted said, you know, 144 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 4: the shooter looked a little bit like this guy I 145 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 4: know from the neighborhood Dre. So the next thing they 146 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 4: do with that is go to the hospital and get 147 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 4: Sean Nicholson, who had repeatedly said I didn't see the 148 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 4: guy he had a mask to pick Andre allegedly out 149 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 4: of a photo array. So what Nicholson actually said, or 150 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 4: what the police got him to say, was, as he 151 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 4: was falling to the ground, he looked over his shoulder 152 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 4: and saw the shooter pulled the mask off his face 153 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 4: and he could recognize Andre from the neighborhood. 154 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 5: Sounds totally legitm exactly happens all the time. 155 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 4: Two days later, a witness comes forward who claims she 156 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 4: was in her car when the shooting occurred. And this 157 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 4: is about five point thirty six o'clock at night on 158 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 4: a winter night, so it was just starting to get 159 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 4: dark in January. And then she says she saw the 160 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 4: shooter run past her and pull up his mask just 161 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 4: as he passed her car window. She also said that 162 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 4: the shots were fired by her car, but the shots 163 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 4: that shot mister Nicholson as a described around the corner, 164 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 4: so she would not have been able to see what 165 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 4: she said she saw. And she said that she was 166 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 4: so upset that night she reported to the police because 167 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 4: she almost had a heart attack and she was treated 168 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 4: for Angina that night, so she didn't come forward until 169 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 4: two days later. After there was already the rumors in 170 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 4: the neighborhood and they were already looking for Andre. 171 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: So, Andre, when you found out they were looking for you, 172 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: you turned yourself in with a lawyer. 173 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 5: Yes. 174 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 3: They came to my girlfriend's house early in the morning. 175 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 3: They missed me. I had just went out to get 176 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 3: breakfast really quick and came back. She was trembling and 177 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 3: she said, listen, the police were here. They left the 178 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 3: card that they searched the home. I immediately reached out 179 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 3: to my mom and she said, Andre, they were just here. 180 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 5: Also, I was just about to call you. 181 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 3: And I went to the Bar Association to meet Martin Fisher. 182 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 3: Martin Fisher was a family attorney, and I said, Marty, 183 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 3: they're looking for me. I don't know what they're looking 184 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 3: for me for. They were contacted by Martin and they said, 185 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 3: we want to ask him a few questions. He said, no, 186 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,479 Speaker 3: he's represented by me. You cannot ask him any questions. 187 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 3: I said, okay, Well, if we need him, we'll contact you. 188 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 3: Two days later, on the Wednesday morning, they contacted him, 189 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 3: which was the twentieth of January, and I went down 190 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 3: there with my mom and my girlfriend at the time, 191 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 3: and walked right into the prison. I didn't have a 192 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 3: worry in the world because I knew that I didn't 193 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 3: have anything to do with this case. So at that 194 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 3: time I was not a prisoner yet. I was actually 195 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 3: seated outside of the push door. And it's ironic because 196 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 3: one of the detectives there, he said, Andre, don't you 197 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 3: remember me? 198 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 5: And I'm like, no, I don't. 199 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 3: Who are you? He said, when you were shot? I 200 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 3: came to the hospital, so they knew that I was 201 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 3: shot already before even any questions were occurring. And then 202 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 3: my attorney went inside spoke to them, and he came 203 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 3: back out, and at that point they arrested me. And 204 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 3: I became enraged. You know, I was yelling at my attorney. 205 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 3: I was yelling at them. I said, listen, I could 206 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 3: have never committed this crime. I showed them my injury. 207 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 3: They noted it. It was on the police reports. And 208 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 3: then I went to a lineup, and when I went 209 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 3: to the lineup, I was picked out of the lineup 210 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 3: as the suspect. 211 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 2: It's a perfect time to highlight the fact that I 212 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 2: witness identification has been proven in experiments to be less 213 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 2: accurate than guessing when you're in a hyper tense situation, 214 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 2: like your own life is on the line, when there's 215 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: gunshots being fired, when it's a running gun situation. Literally 216 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: in this case, your adrenalinees going. And most people think 217 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 2: their minds work like a camera, but in fact we're 218 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 2: so easily influenced that in this case, it seems like 219 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 2: the police may have influenced these witnesses, and I'm being 220 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 2: very kind. 221 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 5: They may have, and. 222 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 4: We believe that she did witness it, that she was there, 223 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 4: that we do believe, but we believe that she was 224 00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 4: guided into picking the wrong person. 225 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: In addition to any guidance the victim and the witness 226 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: may have received from law enforcement, Andre's case features a 227 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: very unfortunate coincidence. It became clear many years later when 228 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: the true assailant was discovered that he and Andre could 229 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: easily be mistaken for one another, especially given the alleged 230 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: quick glances that the witness and victim were relying on 231 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: to make their identifications. 232 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 5: What were the charges to attempted murders? 233 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 3: Two assaults, breakleast endangerment and the list just goes on. 234 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 5: And on, and everything under a gun possession, gun possession. 235 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 4: The family hired a well known criminal defense attorney named 236 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 4: Ira Brown, and the first appearance, Iira says to the judge, 237 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 4: But the family retained me, but they don't have enough 238 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 4: money to pay for an expert. Can the court pay 239 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 4: for an expert? You see, Judge, my client just recently 240 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 4: started being able to walk without a cane. He's still 241 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 4: undergoing physical therapy, and at the time of this shooting, 242 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 4: he couldn't possibly have ran the two city blocks that 243 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 4: the shooter did. So I want to get the medical records, 244 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 4: and I want to hire an expert orthopedist. And the 245 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 4: judge said, well, that sounds like a pretty strong defense. 246 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 4: So let me start with five hundred dollars, get the 247 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 4: medical records, and then when you hired the expert, let 248 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 4: me know you know what else you need, because yes, 249 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 4: we'll pay for that. What happened was Ira was on 250 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 4: trial two or three times in a row when Andrea's 251 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 4: case was on and the family decided we have to 252 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 4: get somebody else. At that time, there were a lot 253 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 4: of mafia trials going on, you know, the Gotti cases, 254 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,719 Speaker 4: and mafia lawyers were kind of considered the. 255 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 5: Cream of the crop. 256 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 4: And they hired a guy named Thomas Lee to take 257 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 4: over the case, and that's where everything fell apart. So 258 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 4: even though the judge had approved this money, Thomas never 259 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 4: pursued the medical evidence after that. And there were two 260 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 4: witnesses that he told the court he was trying to 261 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 4: locate who would name another shooter, a witness named Graham 262 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 4: and a witness named Cleveland. And he gave subpoenas to 263 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 4: the judge and he didn't have the addresses on the subpoenas, 264 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 4: so the judge said, I can't sign a blank subpoena. 265 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 4: Get me the addresses and I'll sign them. And he 266 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 4: never did anything else after that. The last straw, and 267 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 4: what Jason was referring to, was that the one eyewitness 268 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 4: was going to testify. The woman in the car ran 269 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 4: into Andre's mother and a family friend at a laundromat 270 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 4: and they pleaded with her, you know, you made a mistake. 271 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 4: My son didn't do this. She reports that to the DA, 272 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 4: who reports it to the judge, and the judge said, well, 273 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 4: that's perfectly normal. They didn't threaten her. They just told 274 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 4: her they think her son is innocent. But what the 275 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 4: DA was saying was that she didn't want to come 276 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 4: forward and testify. We believe she didn't want to come 277 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 4: forward and testify because she knew that she probably did 278 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 4: not identify the right person. But what happened after that 279 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 4: is the day before she's supposed to testify, a bullet 280 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 4: in an envelope ends up under her windshield wiper and 281 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 4: it says, this is what happens to rats, you fat bitch. 282 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 3: And it was written in reading and ready with two 283 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,119 Speaker 3: bullets in a left on her windshield. 284 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 4: Right, so of course Andre's incarcerated, so so he didn't 285 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 4: do it right. The point about Lee being involved, what 286 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 4: the judge said was it had to have been someone 287 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 4: connected to the defendant. What she didn't consider it was 288 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 4: the lawyer was a fully made member of the Banano 289 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 4: crime family and one of the crimes he got arrested 290 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 4: for and turned informant was that he would go to 291 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 4: the jail and speak to the dawn who was arrested 292 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 4: because he could go see him without anybody listening. He's 293 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 4: a lawyer, and he would go back and give instructions, 294 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 4: including who to give a garbage contract to in Staten Island, 295 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 4: who to give a garbage contract to in the bronx 296 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 4: and who to kill and who to promote within the family, 297 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 4: who's more likely to intimidate it Like that's their game, 298 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 4: that's what they do. 299 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 5: This sounds like a mob guy. 300 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 4: And it would also explain why he wouldn't do the 301 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 4: rest of the work because he says, there's one witness. 302 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 4: If she doesn't show up, the case is over, and 303 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 4: I can't you know, many times they would tell clients, 304 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 4: you know, they would say, don't worry, she's not going 305 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 4: to show up. And I would say them, you know, 306 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 4: the third floor in Attica is called a she showed 307 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 4: up wing. Okay, you know, don't count on someone not 308 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 4: showing up. She's going to show she hates you, okay. 309 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 4: But so Heap was probably counting on that he was 310 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 4: going to be able to intimidate her and I don't 311 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 4: need to worry about it. 312 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: Even though it's believed that this witness refused to testify 313 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: due to her doubts over her identification, the appearance of 314 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: witness intimidation probably did not reflect well on Andre. Meanwhile, 315 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: his attorney's trial strategy hinged on both her absence and 316 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: being able to cross examine the victim, who had initially 317 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: said that he could not identify the shooter. Well, both 318 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: of those things came to pass. The witness's absence at 319 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: trial had an unforeseen and unfortunate result. 320 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 4: They let the DA read her testimony from the grand jury. 321 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 4: It was a total of six questions, Where were you 322 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 4: on that night in my car? What happened? Somebody ran 323 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 4: behind me? What happened after that? I saw a second 324 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 4: person would have gone ran after him. What happened after that? 325 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 4: I heard shots? What happened after that? He pulled his 326 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 4: mask off. Were he able to see his face? 327 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 5: Yes? Did you recognize him? Yes? Who? Andre Bran? 328 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 4: Now she didn't know the name Andre Brown. She only 329 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 4: knew was Dre. But by the time the grand jury 330 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 4: she had learned the name, and he said, how do 331 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 4: you know him. 332 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 5: From around the neighborhood? That's it? 333 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 4: Okay, those eight questions, whatever I just went through. That 334 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 4: was her testimony. That's what convicted Andre essentially was those 335 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 4: eight questions. But she wasn't cross examined about being in 336 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 4: the car at night, being scared. The jury never heard 337 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 4: she almost had a heart attack. The jury never saw 338 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 4: how similar Andrea looked to the real shooter. Obviously, now 339 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 4: Nicholson testified, you know, also that he saw him as 340 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 4: he fell, and he was pretty well cross examined by Lee. 341 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 4: I will say that that's what he was good at 342 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 4: to say how incredible it could be that you could 343 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 4: be falling down looking over your shoulder and catch a 344 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 4: glimpse of a guy, you know. So that was the 345 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 4: whole evidence. 346 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: Right there, right So to just summarize the entire evidence 347 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 1: against you, Andre, was not cross testimony from this witness. 348 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: That's it. 349 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 5: That's it. No motive, no physical evidence. 350 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: Those eight questions convicted Andre. 351 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 2: So Andre, that moment when the jury came back in, 352 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 2: can you take us inside your heart, your soul, your 353 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 2: experience of being in that courtroom the jury comes back 354 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 2: and says guilty. 355 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 3: At that very moment, I was shaking the pinnacle of 356 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 3: either I'm going home or I received this forty years. 357 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 3: And I sat there and the judge came in and 358 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 3: we all rose, and there was one guy I'll never 359 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 3: forget in the jury and he kept looking at me 360 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 3: and he was shaking his head like, yo, Yo, it's 361 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 3: not good, man, it's not good. And I looked at him. 362 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 3: I said what happened? He said, Yo, They found you guilty, 363 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 3: and I told Lee. 364 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 5: I hit him. 365 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 3: I said, Yo, they're gonna find me guilty. He said, 366 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 3: what are you talking about. I put on a great 367 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 3: defense and he put on no defense. Didn't bring my 368 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 3: medical records anything like that to the jury's attention. And 369 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 3: I was trembling knowing that I was about to be convicted. 370 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 3: I just felt like an entire cold go over my body. 371 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 3: It's almost as if your soul leaves you, because you 372 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 3: know this is the trend information of life itself. After 373 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 3: I was convicted, I was taken back upstairs. I was 374 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 3: crying continuously, taking back to records island. 375 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 5: So the judge waited. 376 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 3: I think it was like three months before sentencing, and 377 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 3: I thought that the judge would have saw the lies 378 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 3: and would have changed her mind and sent me home. 379 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 3: I can remember it clearly. I said, she's going to 380 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 3: see it. She'll see the lies, she'll see that Thomas 381 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 3: Lee didn't put on the defense. She'll be able to 382 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 3: see medical records something. But when I come back, I'm 383 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 3: going to be freed. And when I was sentenced, I 384 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 3: snapped again and I said, do you see what you're 385 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 3: doing to an innocent man? Do you see what you're 386 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 3: taking me away from Do you see that You're taking 387 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 3: me from my college, from my family, from my potential girlfriend, 388 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 3: everything that I've worked so hard for. Do you see 389 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 3: what you're taking away from me? And she said, mister Brown, 390 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 3: I'll understand, but you have an appeal. And she sentenced me. 391 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 3: She said, for the first count, I'm going to sentence 392 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 3: you to twenty years, and then she said for the 393 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 3: second count, I'm going to sentence you to twenty years. 394 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,959 Speaker 3: And both of these sentences will run consecutive to one another. 395 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 3: And I didn't understand what that meant at the time. 396 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 3: And then when I got back and they gave me 397 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 3: my sentence and commitment papers, it said forty years. I 398 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 3: want our audience to really understand going through a bullpen 399 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 3: therapy in the three stages of prison, because it changes 400 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 3: the cognition of your mind. 401 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: Well as you were a child, so your brain is 402 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: still developing when you went into prison. 403 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 3: Absolutely, so you know I'm arrested, kicking, screaming, being dragged 404 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 3: into prison saying you did something that you didn't do. 405 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 3: I go through the central booking is the first stage 406 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 3: in prison, straight madness and chaos. People sleeping on the floor, 407 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 3: you're trying to get to the phone system. You're trying 408 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 3: to lay on a bench where individuals is fighting and 409 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 3: pulling and tugging and saying if you're not built like that, 410 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 3: you're not sleeping on the bench. You're going to sleep 411 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 3: under the bench. You're going to sleep on the floor. 412 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 3: You may sleep near the toilet whereas all urine filled. 413 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: So this is the first stage of being thrown inside 414 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 3: the madness. And then the second stage is going through 415 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 3: reyk As Island. And now you're fighting to get on 416 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 3: the phones again, you're fighting in the yard, you're making 417 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 3: sure now you're exercising so that you can stay you know, 418 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 3: built for anything that's going to come at you. So 419 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 3: it's a war zone from Central Book and two reyk 420 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 3: As Island. And now you're getting thrown inside the Department 421 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 3: of Corrections where they're supposed to rehabilitate you. But now 422 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 3: it's more gangs, it's more violence, it's more police assault, 423 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 3: it's more just the pitfalls of the criminal justice system. 424 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 3: So immediately my mind started to trigger Andre. Now you're 425 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 3: going to be like them. You have to now engage 426 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 3: into the brutality to make it to take phone to 427 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 3: carry raisers, to carry sharp objects, to protect yourself. You 428 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 3: have to battle in order to have your core beliefs 429 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 3: and your freedoms met in the minds of these men 430 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 3: who understand that we're criminals. 431 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: When you put an innocent child in prison with people 432 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: that are actually dangerous, there are dangerous people in prison. 433 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 5: You have to survive, absolutely. 434 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: And that could also be a huge hindrance to him 435 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: getting out if he got in a fight or someone 436 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: attacked him and something happened. I mean, we don't even 437 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: think about that. When we put someone like you in 438 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: prison that's innocent, you could come out an actual criminal 439 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: at that point. 440 00:22:58,480 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 5: It came up. 441 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 4: But as strong as you got into a fight, and 442 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 4: the DA brought it to the attention that he got 443 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 4: into a violent altercation at prison because they made a 444 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 4: bail application. So even though you didn't know that, that's 445 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 4: exactly what happened. 446 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: I didn't know that, but yeah, that could have hurt 447 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: your chances of getting out absolutely. So, Oscar, how did 448 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: you get this man out of prison? 449 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, let's get to the good stuff here. 450 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 4: Well, So, one of the reasons I got involved in 451 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 4: Andrea's case is this is my neighborhood we went to 452 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 4: the same high school, Christopher Columbus and the Bronx for Columbus. 453 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 2: He wrongly identified a whole country. 454 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 4: Exactly wasn't even on the same continent. But in any event, 455 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 4: the case right, I said, it spoke to me, but 456 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 4: also showed how weak it was. We just found out 457 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 4: a lot during freedom information laws, which is everybody's good friend. 458 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 4: We first found a report at DD five that was 459 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 4: not given to either mister Ira Brown or to Lee 460 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 4: that showed that the police had actually tested the bullets 461 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 4: and found that the bullets on the fifteenth matched the 462 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 4: gun that was used on the eleventh, So we already 463 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 4: knew that Virgo had one of the guns, so this 464 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 4: had to be the gun that was shooting at Virgo 465 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 4: on the eleventh. So, frankly, I felt that was almost 466 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 4: enough because now we had a motive for the jury 467 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 4: that the same person who shot at these two young 468 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 4: men also shot them on the fifteenth, and O'Neil Virgo 469 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 4: had told the police he got a look at the 470 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 4: person who shot him on the eleventh and he didn't 471 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 4: think it was Andre. So if Andre didn't shoot him 472 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 4: on the eleventh, and how could Andre have had the 473 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 4: gun on the fifteenth, and the judge at his hearing 474 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 4: had a lot of questions about that. That was the 475 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 4: first thing. We then found another DD five of a witness, 476 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 4: Courtney Weezy, who said that the shooter was wearing a TAM. 477 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 4: A tam is what Jamaica men were to hold the dreads. 478 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 4: It's a big woolf cat. Courtney Weezy said the shooter 479 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 4: had a TAM and he was showing a photo array 480 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 4: with Andrea's picture in it and said he couldn't recognize 481 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 4: anybody in the photo ray or We only got the 482 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 4: first page and I noticed there was a check mark 483 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 4: on the front page as witness can I d yes? 484 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 4: And then no one ever got the second page, said 485 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 4: makes I. 486 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: Know, so that's a Brady violation. 487 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 4: That would be a Brady violation. But they argued that 488 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 4: the shooter had a mask on, so you know, it 489 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 4: wasn't a big deal and he couldn't see it. But 490 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 4: the point is he had a right to know that, 491 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 4: and so I said, well, there'd be no reason for 492 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 4: Andre to be wearing a tan, So this shooter was 493 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 4: likely Jamaican and I knew that back then. There was 494 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 4: a lot of battle between Jamaicans and American blacks over 495 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 4: turf as the Jamaicans are moving into the Bronx. So 496 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 4: didn't make sense to me that both of the victims 497 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 4: were Jamaican. Why would a Jamaican shoot these victims. But 498 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 4: we found out when we located the witnesses was that 499 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 4: the real shooter was a Jamaican guy who happened to 500 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 4: have gotten into the neighborhood little bit earlier and was 501 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 4: working with American blacks to sell weed at that location. 502 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 4: And even though they were Jamaican, he didn't like that 503 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 4: they were working at his corner, and that's what the 504 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 4: shooting was all about. The guy who we discovered was 505 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 4: the real shooter, we did some research and tried to 506 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 4: get his yearbook picture, and we got his middle school 507 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 4: yearbook picture. By sheer coincidence, the principal of the middle 508 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 4: school that he went to ended up being my teacher 509 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 4: from back in seventh grade. So there's a lot of 510 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 4: connections for me in the case. If you put these 511 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 4: pictures side by side, Andre and the real shooter look 512 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 4: extremely similar. And that's a key factor is that the 513 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 4: person who might have seen the real shooter when his 514 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 4: mass was off could have easily picked him as Andre. 515 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 4: They were the exact same height and the exact same weight, okay, 516 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 4: and a very similar face. When we found the motion, 517 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 4: we showed, hey, look what TAM means. The real shooter, 518 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 4: we found out, was Jamaican. He would wear that the 519 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 4: victims were selling weed. Andre never sold weed. This guy 520 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 4: only sold weed. Seven months after this shooting, guess what happened. 521 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 4: Real shooter gets gunned down. 522 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 3: Just finding the funeral picture where he actually had dreads, right, 523 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 3: we were able to actually put together the two pieces 524 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 3: of the TAM and now the dreads with the funeral pictures. 525 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 4: Right, we found his funeral program, which is great because 526 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 4: it said his real name, but in the middle of 527 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 4: it said Bonkers. Okay, his nickname was Bonkers. And the 528 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 4: witness said, this guy was crazy. This guy would shoot 529 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 4: you up for no reason. So it's like, let's put 530 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 4: this together here, okay. And then we actually found a 531 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 4: surgeon who did the surgery on Andre's leg. He had 532 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 4: a very serious condition called compartment syndrome. And what happens 533 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 4: there is you get shot and your leg swells up 534 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 4: so much that they have to expose all four quadrants 535 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 4: of your calf. They cut it open and they leave 536 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 4: you lying in bed with open wounds until the pressure 537 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 4: goes down. He had skin grasps. We're talking about a 538 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 4: scar from his thigh down to his ankle, proven atrophy. 539 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 4: And the doctor actually remembered the case, which is unbelievable. 540 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 4: He's the head of trauma at Jacobi in the Bronx, 541 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 4: which is a trauma one center, so this is not 542 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 4: some quack. And now he was head of medicine and 543 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 4: surgery at Mymodny's in Brooklyn. 544 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 3: And listen, I just want to say that when you're 545 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 3: wrongfully convicted, you better know God. All right, We're not 546 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 3: going to allow that not to be set on this 547 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 3: forum right now. It really must be stated because a 548 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 3: lot of this is sheer luck and God's umbrella had 549 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 3: to be on me because my surgeon was alive. 550 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 4: And he said, there's no way someone with this injury 551 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 4: could have ran. He said, maybe he could pull his 552 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 4: leg along, he said, but he would have a noticeable 553 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 4: limp at best. And the judge at Andrea's hearings said, 554 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 4: could he jog? He said no, he could not jog. 555 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 4: He could not jog. He could not run this quickly. 556 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 4: The problem was because the case was so old there 557 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 4: were no physical therapy records to show how far along. 558 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 5: To when it got those medical. 559 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 6: Records to make us his amazing wife, and not to 560 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 6: mention my brother Devon who's not here, also where we 561 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 6: were on the phone like illegally at that point making 562 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 6: three week calls to Jacobe Hospital to locate these records. 563 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 4: This surgeon he actually called over there to try to 564 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 4: get him himself. I mean, he really knew that something 565 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 4: wrong was going on. Ronald Simon, he said, there's got 566 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 4: to be pt records there, maybe Ifi Coal, you know, 567 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 4: we'll find them. And no one could find those therapy 568 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 4: recordscause they don't preserve them. It's talking about the nineteen 569 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 4: ninety we'll looking for them in twenty twenty, you know. 570 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 4: But we did have Ira Brown telling the judge at 571 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 4: his first court appearance, my client is still undergoing physical 572 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 4: therapy and only recently was able to walk without a cane, 573 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 4: and so that formed the basis. 574 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 2: You know, there are a series of sort of miracles 575 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 2: right that led to you being here. But it points out, 576 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: you know, my estimate is that there's probably around two 577 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 2: hundred thousand innocent people in prison while we're sitting here 578 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 2: right now in this country, and that's probably conservative. And 579 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 2: those people, many of them, don't have a way out. 580 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 2: They don't have an Oscar Michelin, right, they don't have 581 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 2: a Maggie Feeling to do a podcast about the case. 582 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 2: In fact, this goes back to very early when we 583 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 2: first started the Wrongful Conviction podcast and our producer back 584 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 2: then was a woman named Sabine Jas and she alerted 585 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: me to your case. I brought it to our fantastic 586 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 2: PR person named Don Cameron. Amazed to generate some interest. 587 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 5: We brought Jeffrey Deskovic in. 588 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 2: I was about to go there and let me brag 589 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 2: on Jeffrey for a second. So Jeffrey Deskovic right there, 590 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 2: sitting in the front row, standing in the front row, 591 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 2: standing now wrongfully convicted, served sixteen years in New York 592 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 2: State and is now a member of the bar. And 593 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: he turned out to be Listen. 594 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 3: As a joke, and as a joke, you know, we 595 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 3: say that Jeffrey is the media whore. 596 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 5: Okay, Now they. 597 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: Love your case because the jeff you brought the case. 598 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 3: Listen, they love jeff the media so immediately, and it's 599 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 3: not a. 600 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 5: Joke, guys, its a lot of attention to this. 601 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 3: Yes, because Jeff is my brother. Jeff is the guy 602 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 3: who went hard, extremely hard in the media for my case. 603 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 3: Him and then Sabine will never forget Sabine because she 604 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 3: contacted Jason and Jason said, who's Andre Brown, and so 605 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 3: being explained it and he said, listen, we got to 606 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 3: put Dawn on this because the only thing that Governor 607 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 3: Cuomo does in the morning is he reads and not bad. 608 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 3: So at that point he put Dawn right in the 609 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 3: fray of everything, and the campaign began. 610 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 4: First, we went to the Conviction Review Unit. They rejected 611 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 4: the case, and so we filed a four to forty. 612 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 3: At that time, it was COVID and they were not 613 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 3: trying to bring me down on a hearing. 614 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 4: We had asked for a virtual hearing because the courts 615 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 4: were closed to in person hearings, and the DA opposed that, 616 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 4: and then Jeff organized a rally in front of her 617 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 4: office to try to get her to agree to a 618 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 4: virtual hearing, and we had a hearing and the judge 619 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 4: agreed that at the very least Lee was ineffective for 620 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 4: not presenting the medical evidence, and just to put the 621 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 4: icing on it. I've known Jeff for a long time. 622 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 4: We kind of mentored him through with his law school 623 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 4: experience and he became an admitted attorney right before we 624 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 4: had got a hearing granted, so I asked him to 625 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 4: second seat. Mean, Andre was just first client. So and 626 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 4: he's back in a hundred. 627 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: So, actually, Oscar, I do want to point out not 628 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: exactly a hundred Andre. 629 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 5: No, I shouldn't say that's right. 630 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: Andrea is not exonerated yet, which is why we're here 631 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: telling his story because the bronx DA is actually still 632 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: fighting his conviction, wanting to put Andre back in prison. 633 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: So not only do we need to exonerate him, we 634 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: need to make sure that he doesn't go back to prison. 635 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, they're they're filed an appeal of the vacature of 636 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,959 Speaker 4: the conviction. And I got to tell you, and you know, 637 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 4: the odds of its success are are not high, the low. 638 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 4: But this room speaks to what happens when you caught 639 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 4: up in the criminal justice system. Right if you if 640 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 4: you're counting on the criminal justicism to work out for you, 641 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 4: you know you're going to get very sorely disappointed. So 642 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 4: it really, you know, is a case that should not 643 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 4: be appealed. Never mind the fact that he served well 644 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 4: over twenty years for a crime that we established, you know, 645 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 4: he didn't commit, but to just drag it on, have 646 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 4: this over his head. They fought bail. Now after the 647 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 4: judge vacated his conviction. They asked for five hundred thousand 648 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 4: dollars bail. Okay, the judge released him, but to supervise release, 649 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 4: just like it wouldn't give us the measure that he 650 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 4: was actually innocent. Took the safe path and said he 651 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 4: was ineffective. You know, as I said to Jason before 652 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 4: we came out here, I've been involved in a lot 653 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 4: of cases. I've never had a case with this much 654 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 4: evidence of innocence. And the judge just couldn't get there. 655 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 4: And then he couldn't just do roar. He had to 656 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 4: send him to supervised release. So it's just constant. The 657 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 4: justice system loves finality. They want to, you know, keep 658 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 4: that hold on you. To the point where when he 659 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 4: first started going to the supervised release place, which is 660 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 4: now run by the Fortune Society, they called us and said, 661 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 4: why are we supervising this person. He went to another 662 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 4: program to be interviewed and they ended up hiring them 663 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 4: instead of supervising he works there. 664 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 5: Now, yes, I mean it's really. 665 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 4: Daunting and it's very discomforting to believe that. 666 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 5: You know, we now have to wait. 667 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 4: It'll take about two years to decide this appeal. 668 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 2: And I want to get to what people here can do, 669 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 2: if they can write letters, or if there's anything else 670 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 2: they could do to make their voices heard for Andre. 671 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: Well, I do know there's a go fundme for Andre 672 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: It's GoFundMe such support Andre Brown, So that exists, so 673 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: please donate. 674 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 2: To that if you can, and we'll link to it 675 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 2: in the episode. 676 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 5: Yeah description as well. 677 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: And you guys have the power to vote for the DA. 678 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: I mean, we can vote in progressive district attorneys. So 679 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,720 Speaker 1: just so you guys know that you have the power 680 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: to make sure that there are conviction review units, that 681 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: there are progressive das that don't fight these convictions that 682 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: are so obvious, so obvious. 683 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 2: And before we go to we have a tradition on 684 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 2: the show, we call it closing arguments. But before we 685 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 2: do that, there's one other very special person in this 686 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 2: room I want to acknowledge, and this is a young 687 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 2: man named right, your. 688 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 5: Son's daf Aj. 689 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 2: I heard somewhere that he scored thirty points in a 690 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 2: basketball game this week. So if there's any agents in 691 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 2: the room, might want to get in now because he's 692 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 2: only twelve. 693 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: Actually, I did want to talk about Aja Tamika and 694 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: Andre You knew each other from high school, yes, and 695 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: now you're married. You did over twenty years in prison, 696 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: and actually we talked about how you're lucky that you're alive, 697 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: because if you're a leg you're lucky now that you're out, 698 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people get out and don't have family, 699 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: and you have a wonderful wife and a son, Yes, 700 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 1: that you're coming home to. 701 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 2: Right there, right there, right look for. 702 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 3: Not only do people not have family, they don't have hope, 703 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 3: they don't have faith. They lose their souls inside of 704 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 3: prison because they don't have friends. I've seen individuals walk 705 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 3: in the yard until they turn mad because they're innocent, 706 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 3: and now everybody has shunned them. So what does that 707 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 3: really mean when society itself make you the treads and 708 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 3: then inside of the prison you're a nobody. 709 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 4: Well, it's just a dangerous place. Where we were waiting 710 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 4: for Andrea's hearing because of COVID. One of the reasons 711 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,720 Speaker 4: we filed for the virtual hearing was Andre was actually 712 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 4: on the phone with Tamika on Thanksgiving Day and some 713 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 4: other guy in the prison thought he was on the 714 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 4: phone too long and nearly took Andre's eyes, stabbed him 715 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 4: in the face with a pen. Yeah, while he was 716 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 4: on the phone with Tamika, right, Yes, And you know 717 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:33,759 Speaker 4: I wrote to the judge and said, look, we got 718 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 4: to get this guy hearing like. 719 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 5: He's in the Honors Prison. 720 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,439 Speaker 4: By way, this is the place in the Eastern Those 721 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 4: are here know they call it Happy Nap because it's 722 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 4: like the place where you're supposed to be the safest. 723 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 4: And he got attacked just on the phone. So you know, 724 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 4: sending someone to prison is you know, it could potentially 725 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 4: be a death sentence. 726 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 2: It is for too many people, and we know that 727 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:54,399 Speaker 2: right here in Manhattan and right here in New York 728 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 2: Rikers Island. Since may Or Adams took office, twenty nine 729 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 2: people at last count, have been murdered and Riker's Island, 730 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 2: and most of them overwhelm the jar of them had 731 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 2: even been convicted of anything. 732 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 5: Yet most of them are presumed innocent. 733 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, just waiting for trials. Detainees, Yeah, exactly that could 734 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 2: have been you, or could have been so many other 735 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 2: people in this room. So anyone who's just listened to 736 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 2: the Wrongful Conviction podcast knows this is my favorite part 737 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,959 Speaker 2: of the show. We call it closing Arguments. It's where 738 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 2: we thank each of you, Maggie and I for being 739 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 2: here with us today, everybody in the audience, everybody listening 740 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 2: at home, and then turn it over to Oscar first 741 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 2: to say anything else is left to be said, and 742 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 2: then you take us off into the sunset anything you 743 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:32,359 Speaker 2: want to say. 744 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 4: First of all, thank you for being involved in the 745 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 4: issue and spread the word. Tell people that there were 746 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 4: folks in there who don't belong there. There are many 747 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 4: people who serve their time in a route that will 748 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 4: never get the justice that they deserve, and that time 749 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 4: has been lost. Will let people know that this is 750 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 4: an issue that should be addressed at every time that 751 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 4: there's a DA running for office. 752 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 3: And for me, I got to mention some of my 753 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,839 Speaker 3: great colleagues, Michael Cobb, who we all know is shot, 754 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 3: do Raphael Martinez, as Pedro Rodriguez, Nokia Rose, Ronaldo Morgan. 755 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 3: These men are still fighting for their freedom today and 756 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 3: I mentioned them because I want everybody here in the 757 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 3: live audience at home to take a second look. I 758 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 3: give you the analogy that I give to some of 759 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 3: the students when I did my last speech with Jeff, 760 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 3: and it is like when you guys are driving home 761 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 3: and you just see something as simple as a pedestrian 762 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,359 Speaker 3: pulled over on the side of the road, and you're 763 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 3: just like, oh, it must be a lawful stop, so 764 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 3: you just keep moving. Take a second look, take a 765 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 3: second look when you see somebody in trouble, because you 766 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 3: never will know when it's your time to give that 767 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 3: help in hand. 768 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You 769 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 2: can listen to this and all the Lava for Good 770 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 2: podcasts one week early by subscribing to Lava for Good 771 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 2: Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team, 772 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,240 Speaker 2: Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as my fellow 773 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 2: executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Clyburn. The 774 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 2: music in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR 775 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 2: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across 776 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,839 Speaker 2: all social media platforms at Lava for Good and at 777 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram at 778 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,320 Speaker 2: it's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava 779 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 2: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one