WEBVTT - Sanctuary Challenges & Little League Visas Denied 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:13.320 The Trump administration has taken aggressive action against sanctuary cities 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:19.160 and states, filing lawsuits against Colorado and Denver, Illinois and Chicago, 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:24.079 Los Angeles, Rochester, New York for New Jersey cities, and 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.960 just last week New York City. The basic contention of 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:32.440 the lawsuits is that sanctuary cities and states interfere with 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:37.680 federal immigration enforcement. But on Friday, a federal judge dismissed 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:43.000 the administration's lawsuit against Illinois and Chicago. Joining me is 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:46.880 immigration attorney Leon Fresco, a partnered Honda Knight. He was 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:49.960 the head of the Office of Civil Immigration Litigation during 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:56.320 the Obama administration. Leon, there's no official definition for sanctuary cities, 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:59.760 but can you describe what they are? 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:04.520 Two components of what people talk about when they mentioned 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:10.360 sanctuary city. So one is the issue of information sharing 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:15.640 with the federal government. So that is, if a specific 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:21.160 city or locality or county or state has information about 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.679 someone that's been arrested, the question is should they share 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:29.280 that information with immigration so that immigration knows that there's 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:32.280 now someone who's a document that that's been arrested that 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.000 they should try to pick up as part of an 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:39.839 initiative to pick up people with criminal violations. That's one, 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:45.120 and then the second is cooperation with administrative warrants or 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:48.800 what are called detainer requests, which is on the other end, 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:53.920 when I actually knows that somebody is in custody in 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:58.760 a city or county jail or a state facility, if 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:02.160 there's an ordinance that says, well, if ICE issues an 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.880 administrative warrant, which is a warrant that can be issued 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:08.320 just by an ICE agent, it doesn't have to go 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:12.160 to a court, does that compel in any way the city, 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:15.880 the county, or the state to actually comply with that warrant. 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.600 And so what the sanctuary provision say is no, you're 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:22.320 not compelled to do anything with that. If there's a 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:27.400 federal judicial warrant, fine, then turn the person over to 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:32.320 the ICE agent who's showing that federal criminal judicial warrant. 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:37.320 But otherwise just release them and don't do anything just 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:42.440 because ICE is commandeering you to perform work on its behalf. 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:45.280 And so those are the two things that are commonly 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:49.920 meant by sanctuary cities. It's not really that the city 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:54.480 itself is in any way sort of creating an amnesty 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:59.760 that legalizes undocumented people or anything like that within its borders. 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.080 What it's posentially saying is it's not going to do 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:08.680 anything affirmatively to help the federal government in its mission 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.560 of trying to deport people who are deportable from the 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:12.400 United States. 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:16.960 So the Trump administration has been targeting sanctuary cities, which 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:21.800 are generally democratic cities. I mean, having a sanctuary city 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.840 does that really hold up their immigration efforts. 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:28.079 So we're not talking legally, we're just talking about as 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:33.280 a factual matter. Absolutely. ICE would prefer one million times 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.720 out of a million to be given a list every 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:40.720 day from states and cities and counties across the country. 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.320 Here is a list of people that we've arrested today. 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.680 Go look at all of these people in these lists 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.000 and try to figure out if any of them are undocumented. 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:54.200 And there are many cities in America, some in Florida, 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:57.200 I'm in Texas that do this. They provide us every 0:03:57.280 --> 0:03:59.800 day with a list of people that have been arrested. 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:04.120 And then ICE goes and says, well, out of these 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:07.840 one hundred people on this list, we care about these fourteen, 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:11.000 detain them tell us when you're going to release them, 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:15.400 call us and we'll come pick them up. And because 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:19.840 that doesn't happen, then those let's say fourteen people out 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.480 of that list from one hundred, ICE has to go 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.080 find them. So it would be much easier for ICE 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:28.599 if they could just literally be handed that human being 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.400 and put them in an ICE detention vehicle and put 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.560 them in an ICE facility. But with you have a 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:39.839 law that does not permit that, then those people get 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.200 released and ICE has to catch them again, just like 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:44.760 if they had never had any information about them in 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.680 the first place. And so as a practical matter, I 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:52.440 don't think anybody would dispute that it practically makes the 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:57.040 job of deportation of people with criminal interactions. I can't 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.960 say criminals because some of these folks who get arrested 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:01.840 that are going to be acquitted. So that's one of 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:04.680 the other problems is if you say you're deporting a 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:08.920 criminal non citizen, the issue is, well, are they actually 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:11.880 criminals in the sense but they actually did something that 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:15.520 they got convicted for or are they just wrongfully arrested 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.000 of something? And then you know, there's the other argument 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.200 that people make about well, yeah, but they're here illegally, 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.800 so in and of itself, you can call that person 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.320 a criminal. But putting that argument to the side, which 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:30.039 is a semantic argument that people debate in the political realm, 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:34.760 the point being that that group, whether you care about 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:37.000 whether they were convicted or whether you just care that 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:41.280 they were arrested and people shouldn't be getting arrested anyway, 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.719 whatever you think about that group, it is immensely harder 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.479 to remove anyone in that group in any of the 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:52.400 iterations if the cities don't give that information and share 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:53.719 it affirmatively with ICE. 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:58.960 The administration sued New York City Mayor Rick Adams and 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:03.120 other officials after the shooting of an off duty Customs 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:06.960 and Border Protection officer in a Manhattan park a little 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.400 over a week ago. They blamed New York sanctuary city 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:14.799 policies for the shooting. Here's Homeland Security Secretary Christy nom 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:16.520 two days after the shooting. 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:19.880 Make no mistake, this officer is in the hospital today 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.680 fighting for his life because of the policies of the 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:25.039 mayor of the city and the city council and the 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:27.839 people that were in charge of keeping the public safe. 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:32.200 Would the suspects have been in ice custody, if New 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:34.480 York wasn't a sanctuary. 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.960 City, if according to the lawsuits, one of the two 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:44.719 people that had been arrested absolutely did interact with eyes 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:48.480 in the sense that I placed an immigration detainer on 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.040 one of the two people, both who committed the crime 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:54.280 of the attack on the CDP officer and for Washington Park. 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.960 Both were here illegally, and both were arrested and released 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.120 in New York. But I set actually placed what was 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.919 called an immigration detainer on one of the two individuals, 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:10.480 meaning they told a New York City jail, please hold 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:12.800 this person so we can go pick them up and 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:16.360 tell us when you're gonna release them, and that went unanswered. 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:19.120 It was like, you know, it's like sending a fax 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:23.400 into Mars. You know, if you send the facts to Mars, 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.960 nobody is there in Mars andswering that fact. It's the 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:31.920 same concept here, So that detainer is ignored, and then 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:35.760 this individual who gets arrested then walks out and they 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:39.640 commit this crime against the CBP officer for Washington. The 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:43.160 argument being if this had been a locality like some 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:46.400 of the ones in Florida or in Texas, for sure 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.680 that ice detainer would have been honored, meaning at least 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.800 one of the two individuals for sure would have been 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:55.480 arrested and detained and would never have been able to 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:57.880 commit this crime. But even the second one, who didn't 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.720 have an ICE detainer, had New y York had an 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:05.200 especially cooperative relationship with ICE, and it would have even 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:09.920 given this second person the moment they were arrested, affirmatively 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:13.520 the information to ICE and said, hey, please do us 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:17.480 a favor and pick up this person because we're really 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:22.160 trying to enforce the immigration law. And so depending on 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:25.800 the scenario, either one or both would have been apprehended 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.720 and would not have been free to commit that crime. 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:34.000 Are all the administration's lawsuits against sanctuary cities and states 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.520 basically making the same arguments based on the supremacy clause. 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.840 They argue basically three different arguments. They say, Number one, 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:49.960 that there is preemption that the federal immigration law actually 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:57.320 requires in a sense information sharing between the federal government 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:01.320 and the state government in the same It's that part 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:06.800 of the Immigration Code says that states, cities, and counties 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:12.280 cannot pass any laws that prohibit the sharing of information. 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:16.559 And here's the key, It says regarding an individual's citizenship 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:20.280 and immigration status. And so the point is what does 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:24.960 that mean. Does that mean only that issue, meaning just 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:29.120 number one, are you a citizen? Are you here legally? 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.199 Or does it mean a bigger basket of information? Are 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.120 you detained? What time are you going to be released? 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.120 Where are you detained, what crime did you commit? Et cetera. 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:41.960 And so that say debate now, to be fair to 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.720 the states and the cities and the counties, this debate 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.640 has been had in the first Trump administration and now 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:51.160 in the second one, and so far the Supreme Court 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:54.319 hasn't weighed in, but every other court that has weighed 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.880 in has said that information is just the very narrow 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.280 is the person here legally or or not? And is 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.240 the person a citizen or not? But has nothing to 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.680 do with this broader basket of information that the federal 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.520 government seeks. But nevertheless, that's one argument. Number one, that 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:13.600 what the cities and the states and the counties are 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:17.280 doing is preempted because they have to provide this information. 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.920 And then number two, that it's preempted by the supremacy 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:25.120 clause because these laws discriminate against the federal government. They 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:27.960 give worse treatment to the federal government than they do 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.560 against others that might ask for this information. They're specifically 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:36.600 targeted towards not sharing information with the federal government. And finally, 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:41.319 they actually implicitly regulate the federal government. That's the final 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:44.680 argument that has made in these lawsuits, because if you're 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.439 telling the federal government here's how you have to operate 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.640 in a particular location. You have to do this, this, 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:55.480 and this. In order to get someone from county detention, 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:57.520 you have to get a federal warrant. You can't get 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:00.880 a civil warrant, etc. You can't ask for information. You 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:04.160 have to stand outside the dail and try to catch people, 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.360 or stand outside the courts and try to catch people. 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:11.320 Then you're regulating the federal government in a way that's 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:13.680 in permissible. So those are the arguments that the federal 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:16.800 government has made in these cases. But again, to be 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:20.000 fair to the states and the localities, they have not 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:25.920 been successful at any level district or appellate court so 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:28.880 far in winning any of these cases so far. 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:31.840 Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, I'll continue 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:36.679 this conversation with Leon Fresco. While Venezuela's Little League team 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.200 was denied visas to take part in the league's Senior 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:44.880 Baseball World Series in South Carolina. You're listening to Bloomberg. 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:50.280 The Trump administration has found a series of lawsuits targeting 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:55.320 state and city policies seen as interfering with immigration enforcement. 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.840 But last Friday, a judge in Illinois dismissed the administration 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:04.640 lawsuit against Chicago and Illinois. I've been talking to immigration 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:08.400 attorney Leon Fresco, a partner at Holnden Knight. Leon. The 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:12.160 judge dismissed the lawsuit, saying the Trump administration didn't have 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.520 standing to bring the suit. Tell us about her ruling. 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:20.160 Very similar laws in Cook County in Chicago and Illinois 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:22.720 as the ones we were just talking about in New York. 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:27.600 And so the defendant Chicago, Illinois, Cook County file a 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.679 motion to dismiss, and they say, at the end of 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:34.440 the day, you can't sue us because you don't have standing, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.880 because you're not affected by anything we're doing. If you 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:43.120 feel that you are affected by something we're doing, it's 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:46.120 because you're forcing us to do things. And you know 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:50.440 you can enforce all the immigration law you want in Chicago, 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:53.079 federal government. That's what the city and the county and 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:55.080 the state were saying. They're saying, you can enforce all 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.600 the immigration law you want. We don't have officers shooting 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.960 at you while you're trying to enforce immigration law, or 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.680 we don't have officers putting up barricades or hiding people 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.520 or anything else. The problem in these cases is you're 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.000 trying to make us do things that we don't want 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.880 to do, and so you don't have standing to make 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:17.040 us do things that we don't want to do, because 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:21.679 the Supreme Court has already held in the famous Prince case, 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.480 and that was a case where when the Brady Law 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:29.000 was passed that developed the national background check system. Until 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.680 that system was developed, they said for the states and 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.679 the localities they had to do the background checks. And 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.680 then the locality students said, you can't force us to 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:39.960 do background checks. We don't want to do that. You know, 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.480 there were some localities that didn't believe that constitutionally you 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:47.679 could have background checks on guns, and so the Supreme 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.520 Court agreed. They said the federal government cannot force states 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:57.079 and localities it's called anti commandeering into implementing federal regulatory programs. 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.560 And so that same theory that existed in the case 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.559 is being applied in these sanctuary city cases, but again 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:09.640 in this Chicago case, to say, if you actually are 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.920 saying you have standing because you're being hurt, you're only 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:17.720 being hurt because the cities aren't enforcing the law in 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:22.040 the way you want them to. And you can't do that. 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:26.440 You can't make a city or a county affirmatively do anything. 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:28.760 They can do what they want as long as they're 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:33.160 not interfering. And because there was no finding of interference, 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.120 then the idea was there's no standing because you can't 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:40.200 force them to cooperate. You can only force them to 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:41.160 not interfere. 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:45.640 So can we conclude that the lawsuits against other sanctuary 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:49.560 cities and states will likely go a similar way? 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.560 Yeah, I mean, unless the Supreme Court wants to announce 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:56.480 a new doctrine and there is a final sort of 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.240 straw that the government is grasping at, which is to say, 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:05.000 in the end, we want to distinguish princes from these 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:09.400 sanctuary city cases to the extent that what we're seeking 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:13.160 is only information as opposed to the faith or the 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:16.440 cities doing anything. So, for instance, I don't think the 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.440 federal government will ever be successful in getting the Supreme 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:22.800 Court to say that a city or a county or 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:27.400 a state has to affirmatively detain somebody because that's an 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:31.280 affirmative action. That's similar to prince. But the question is 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:35.920 on information sharing. Is that going to be something that 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:39.080 is covered by prince or will they be able to 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:46.080 achieve an information sharing exception which allows the federal government 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:50.000 to force states and cities to share information that they 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:53.880 have with regard to foreign nationals, i e. Where are they, 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:56.560 where they detained, when are they going to be released? 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.640 And so that is I think the final threat question. 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.680 And I would say, given that the Supreme Court has 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:10.360 been pretty deferential recently toward Trump's efforts to deport people 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:12.960 and to enforce the immigration laws, I would say that 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.320 that one is not so crazy to think that the 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:20.720 Immigration Court might set out an exception for information sharing. 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:22.040 Wep the wave and see. 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.800 I want to turn to denaturalization, which has been in 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:30.080 the news a bit lately. Denaturalizing citizens used to be 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:36.200 reserved for extreme cases like war criminals or national security threats, 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:40.440 but last month the Department of Justice made it one 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:46.240 of five enforcement priorities for the agency's Civil Division. First 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:47.800 of all, who are we talking about. 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:51.480 We're talking about people who entered the United States did 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:55.040 everything the right way, got green cards, local permanent residents, 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.520 waited the statutory period past the English and Civics test, 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:00.880 and are now US. It is so they can vote, 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:05.199 they can serve on juries, they can apply for security clearances, 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:08.080 the whole thing. Yes, these are US citizens, just like 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:09.200 someone who was born here. 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.840 And how difficult is it for the government to denaturalize 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:15.000 a citizen. 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.679 In federal court? Because when you do a denaturalization, and 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:20.919 this is where you know, you can issue all the 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:24.199 press releases you want, but in reality, when you do 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:28.359 a denaturalization, it is a very resource intensive action. You 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.040 actually have to get the Department of Justice and I 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:35.160 used to work together on filing an actual federal lawsuit 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.679 against the person, and there actually has to be the 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:40.560 equivalent of a trial, and you have to go in 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:45.160 and say that a material misrepresentation was made in either 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:49.600 the citizenship application or the green card application, such that 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:53.879 had that material misrepresentation been known at the time, there's 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.080 no way the person would have been approved in their application. 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:01.080 And so that's the standard, and it's a very high threshold. 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.879 There can't be something like oh, you didn't tell us 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.400 you were in the Elk Club and it turns out 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:08.960 you were in the Elk Club, or you didn't tell 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.800 us you were in the Five Sigma fraternity, and had 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.000 we known that, we would have approved you. No, no, no, 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:19.399 it has to be something serious, like cases where people 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:25.399 either didn't disclose criminal convictions or people didn't disclose certain 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:31.080 terrorists or national security issues. Then theoretically there is some argument. 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:35.040 Now the question is is this gonna be expanded out 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:40.199 to slightly more frivolous groups of people. We're gonna have 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.080 to wait and see. But I don't think at least 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.440 in the short term that's gonna happen, because the Department 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:50.320 of Justice at the moment is in a very big 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:53.040 crunt in terms of they've lost a lot of lawyers 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:58.480 from the department. These cases are very very resource intensive, 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.520 and so to devote lawyers to these cases when the 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:06.000 facts are not so compelling is not going to be 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:09.439 a productive use of their resources. But again, in scenarios 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:14.160 where a criminal conviction was not reported or with fake identities, 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:18.080 that kind of thing might actually be something where you'd 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:20.680 want to do this kind of denaturalization action. 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:25.960 So Trump has raised the prospect of stripping citizenship from 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:31.520 Elon Musk and New York City Democratic mayoral candidate Zoren Mundami. 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:32.640 Could he do that? 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:35.960 So you have to go again to the theories of 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:40.399 these cases, which is that material misrepresentations were made on 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:44.320 either the green card or the citizenship cases. So on 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.240 the green card and citizenship cases, the ones that have 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:49.359 been made, I have no opinion, nor am I making 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:51.000 any allegations against anyone. 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:52.280 I want it against you. 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.880 But allegations that have been made are that Elon must 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:59.440 reportedly engaged in unauthorized work while he was on a 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.560 student in the United States, which if he did, would 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:05.440 have been a violation of his student visa, which if 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:07.960 he did. When he was asked a question on his 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:11.399 Green card and his citizenship applications, have you ever violated 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:14.240 the terms of any visa you've held that he answered no, 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:17.879 that would have been a dishonest answer, and then thus 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:21.240 you can the naturalize them that would be his. The 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:25.200 Mamdani one would be even more complicated because his would 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:29.840 be based off of memberships in certain organizations that they 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:34.840 would claim, Hey, this guy was cohorting with terrorist type 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:39.040 people and he did disclose this in his application, and 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.359 so it's similar to the Moot Khalil type of situation. 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.040 And even though my Mood Khalils is easier because he's 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:49.240 just a Green card holder, but it's the same concept 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:51.280 at the end of the day, which is, did you 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:57.440 fail to disclose the kinds of affiliations that you had 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:00.680 with entities that had you disclosed them, we would never 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:03.720 have approved your Green card. And so I think that 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:06.399 one will be much more challenging because I don't know 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:10.040 if there are any such organizations. I'm not aware of any, 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:12.320 but who knows, you know. And then the final case 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:14.879 that's been brought up is Rosi o'donalds. She was born 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:17.920 in the United States, so for her they would actually 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:22.480 have to find that she committed one of the expropriating acts, 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:25.320 which there's only a few of them, which is that 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:27.600 you either go to a US embassy and say hey, 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:30.000 I don't want to be a citizen anymore, that's the 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.119 main one, or you take up arms against the US 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:35.960 and a war. But she hasn't done any of that, 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:40.080 so there is no provision in the law I'm aware 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:43.680 of where Rosie o'donald's citizenship could be taken away. From 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:44.919 that perspective, I think. 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:48.760 She says, let's transition yet again, because there are so 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:53.080 many immigration topics in the news. Venezuela's Little League team 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.399 made it to the Senior Baseball World Series, which is 0:21:56.480 --> 0:22:00.879 being held in South Carolina, as it always is, but 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:05.159 they can't make the competition because the US refused to 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:06.680 give them visas. 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:09.160 Every year there's a thing called the Little League World 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:12.120 Series and they put it on TV, and each year 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:14.639 there's more and more coverage. There used to be only coverage. 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:16.520 When I was a young kid, there was this coverage 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:19.160 of maybe like the final game or two. Now they 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:21.920 show the whole tournament, two, three, four weeks. I bet 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:23.239 there's even gambling on it. 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:25.680 Now. No, there's gambling on everything. 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:28.719 So probably yes, correct. And so the point is that 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:32.359 Venezuela qualified. One of the Little League teams from Venezuela 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:35.359 qualified to be in the Little League World Series. They 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:38.960 were the winner of their tournament. And because of the 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:43.040 travel band that was implemented several weeks ago that said 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:46.200 that Venezuelans who were trying to come on non immigrant visas, 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:50.159 meaning visas that were not visas for immigrating into the 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:53.639 United States like tourists visas which would be the visas 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:56.680 these kids would come in under. Can't comment United States 0:22:56.680 --> 0:23:00.560 their band. Now that travel band did have a exception, 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:04.080 A literally had one for like the World Cup itself, 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:06.719 because I think they understand that. For instance, I think 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:09.119 I ran as qualified for the World Cup, and so 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:11.000 that one would be very tough if you don't let 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:14.480 them in for the World Cup. But secondly, you know, 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:17.960 for other things that are in the national interest. So 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:20.640 the Venezuelan kids applied for visa and they were denied, 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:24.280 and that was just it. They were not given a 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:26.840 chance to get one of these waivers. And so from 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:29.800 my perspective, I don't know if this perspective is shared 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:32.879 by others in the United States, But even when we 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:37.000 had the height of the Cold War with Russia, a 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:40.240 nuclear power who was intent on killing us and wiping 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:42.440 us off the face of the match, we still let 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:45.439 the balls showy ballet perform in New York and we 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:49.320 just ban them from the United States. And so somehow 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:51.920 we made it through the Cold War. I think we'd 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:54.080 be able to make it through whatever this period is 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:57.640 by letting some little kids play baseball. But call me crazy. 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:00.919 So there are these exceptions, but do you think that 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:04.200 fewer people will come to the United States to attend 0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:07.760 the events because of fears of the travel ban or 0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:08.960 other restrictions. 0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:12.359 Absolutely. I mean we already saw that with the Club 0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:16.560